1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A gorgeous young wife seemingly 2 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: collapses out of nowhere. Days later she's dead. What happened 3 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: to Tammy Harris Crime Stories with Nancy Grace? First of all, 4 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: take a listen to our friend Tyler a crime online. 5 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: When Tammy and Jeffrey Harris married in two thousand and seven, 6 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: it was really no surprise, after all that had all uncommon. 7 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: Tammy graduated from Washington State University with a Bachelor of 8 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: Science degree in nursing and a master's degree as a 9 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 1: psychiatric nurse practitioner. Jeffrey had earned the right to use 10 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: doctor before his name. One of Amy's three children from 11 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: a previous marriage says they had a very loving relationship 12 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: during their eleven years together, and when Tammy Harris was 13 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 1: diagnosed with lupus, the couple looked at treatment options together. 14 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: Straight out to an All Star Panelt helped make sense 15 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,279 Speaker 1: of what happened to Tammy with me. High profile lawyer, 16 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: former prosecutor out of Atlanta, Darryl Cohen, doctor Sherry Swartz, 17 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: forensic psychologist and author of Criminal Behavior, Justin Boardman, former 18 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: Special Victims Unit detective West Valley See the End. Author 19 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: of I was wrong and investigators battlecry for change. Renowned 20 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: medical examiner joining US, doctor William Moroney joining us from Michigan, 21 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: author of a best selling book, America Narcan on Amazon 22 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: and Crime online dot Com. Investigative reporter Nicole Parton. So, Nicole, 23 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: we've got these two that are seemingly handing glove, perfect 24 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: for each other. Tammy and Jeffrey Harris married, says two 25 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: and seven. So she collapsed? Was that due to lupus? Right, Nancy? 26 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: So they left their home in Idaho, traveled to New 27 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: York City because she had been diagnosed with what doctors 28 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,839 Speaker 1: thought was lupus. So they headed up to New York 29 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:22,239 Speaker 1: City to treat some or seek some holistic treatment for 30 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: her lupus. But she collapsed at the hotel they were 31 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: staying at. Six days later, she's said, whoa okay? Talked 32 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: to William Moroney, Chief Medical Elexander Bay County, Michigan. First 33 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: of all, what is lupas and how often is it fatal? 34 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: Lupas involves a number of different systems, but they're all 35 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: tied together because you treat lupas, which is a flare 36 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: of inflammation, so you treat it with anti inflammatories and 37 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: immunal suppresses. It affects the lungs, it affects the skis, 38 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: and it can affect the heart. Well, I still don't 39 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: understand what it is. Is it some type of an 40 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: inflammation problem. It's an autoimmune problem. There's no virus, there's 41 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: no bacteria, there's no damage. There's just some part of 42 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: the body that you have an autoimmune attack. And you 43 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,639 Speaker 1: can see it on certain rashes and people. It can 44 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: bring weakness, but lupas is very rarely the cause of 45 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: a death. Well, what does it do to you? Because 46 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: do you remember us discussing the Chris Watts and Chanan 47 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: Watts case. Chris Watts to kill her husband. That killed Nan, 48 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: his wife who was pregnant with baby Nico, and they 49 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: had the two daughters, Bell and Celeste, and then he 50 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: hid their bodies at an oil oil wheel area. You 51 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: remember that. I think she had lupas. Didn't she have lupas? Yes? 52 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: And they when they met, he was so supportive of 53 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: her trying to battle her lupas. So I still don't understand. 54 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: You get rashes, you have a hard time breathing sometimes. 55 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: What are the other symptoms of lupas? It can affect 56 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: the GI tract, it can affect the lungs, and it 57 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: can sometimes have an inflammatory effect on internal organs, so 58 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: they become inflamed. What does that mean? Listen, doctor Moroney, 59 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: Not all of us have MD degrees. So when you 60 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: throw around phrases like your organs have inflammatory whatever you 61 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: just said, what do you mean your organs swell up? 62 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: Your organs can't get a rash? So what are you saying? Oh? 63 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: How I would love to have you on cross exam. 64 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: I would have so much fun because you really can't 65 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,239 Speaker 1: argue back with the lawyer. But sadly now you can't. 66 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: I would have to hide. But what does that mean? 67 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 1: Flamatory process? If you're diabetic, you're not getting enough insulin 68 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: because of the pancreas slows up. You have a difficult 69 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: time breathing in lupus because the airways can swell up. Okay, 70 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: now I'm getting it. That's what you mean by in flaming. Okay, 71 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 1: there's no virus and there's no bacteria. It's an autoimmune disease. 72 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: How do you treat it? What we have grown to 73 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 1: treat it with is immunal suppressant. And why didn't you 74 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: say it like that, what we have grown to treat 75 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: it with? Does that mean it's hit or miss? And 76 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: right now we're trying immuno What do you mean by 77 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: we've because for instance, if somebody has if somebody cuts 78 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 1: their hand and it starts turning red, you put neosporin 79 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: on it, it's an antibiotic and you get well. So 80 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: what do you and I know that to be a fact, 81 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: So what do you mean we have grown to treat 82 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: it with? And acute lupus flare is treated with massive 83 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: amounts of steroids because that shuts down inflammation. But you 84 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: can't live off of steroids dan the day out. Why 85 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: does it destroy your kidney but destroys your adrenal glance 86 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: that are on top of the kidney, and it'll change 87 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: your pituitary and it'll change your hormones and it'll demineralize 88 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: your bones. And steroids are a wonderful drug for acute 89 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: pathological problems, but not for long term. And that's lupus 90 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: is a long term disease. Got it? So now we 91 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: have immuno suppressants and an acute player you can use steroids. 92 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: What's an immuno suppressant? Sorry, for the rest of you 93 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: on the panel. What some people can't speak English and 94 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: explain it to me in a way I can understand. 95 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: What is an immunosuppressant? Well, there are branded name immuno suppressants, 96 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: but some of the people I know that have lupus arthritis, 97 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: they're rheumatologists. Prescribes them one or two things, hydroxy chloroquin 98 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: or an antibody infusion, and those antibodies infusions are proprietary, 99 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: so they're expensive. But hydroxy everything he just said, okay, 100 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: doctor Moroni, Yes, just name me something we can all identify. 101 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: What isn't it? You know, suppressant medication? Just name one. Well, 102 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: don't say hydroxy chlorinate or not that one because that's 103 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: too associated with unsuccessful attempts to treat COVID. What's another 104 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: one that I could get? Immuno suppressant? Well, hi, steroids? Okay, 105 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: got you? Tero Yes, okay, I got it, I got it? Now? 106 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: All right, present, Yes there you go. Oh thank you amen? Brother, 107 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: All right, present that I know about. So let me understand. 108 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: Nicole Parton. Tammy marries the doctor husband, doctor Jeffrey Harris. 109 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: They there in New York trying to find a holistic 110 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: healing for lupus. Do you know it took me seven 111 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: minutes to get that out of Maroney? Seven minute Maroney. 112 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: As I've told you before, doctor Maroney, I'm a JD, 113 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: not a DDS. I'm not that good at pulling teeth, Okay, 114 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: So you know, help a girl out here and just 115 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: give me a simple, dummy down answer so we can 116 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: all just move on with this case. So I can 117 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: understand what happened to Tammy Harris. Holistic is that right, 118 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: Nicole part? And they began searching the earth for holistic 119 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: cures for lupus or treatments right right. So her husband, 120 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: doctor Jeffrey Harris, was very adamant that he was going 121 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: to seek out holistic treatment and try to find a 122 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: way to battle what the doctors were calling lupas. But 123 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 1: what he believed to be another element. So he wasn't 124 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: buying into the fact that she had lupus. What did 125 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: he think she had? He was believing that she had 126 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: mercury poisoning because she had been a nurse at a 127 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: dental surgical center for already stop again, sorry, justin boardman, 128 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: Doctor Sherry Schwartz, Daryl Cohen, please just jump in because 129 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: I'm about to go back to doctor Moroney, and you 130 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: know what's going to happen, doctor Moroney, mercury poisoning. Wouldn't 131 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: you have to break about two hundred thermometers in order 132 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: to get mercury poisoning? How else would you get mercury poisoning? 133 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: Bolsure two mercury compounds in dental fillings. But that is 134 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: now very rare, That is very rare, and that just 135 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: doesn't happen. We don't see it in people because didn't 136 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: they change what Dennis used for feelings, so that would 137 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 1: no longer be a possibility. Right, they're ceramic, they're epoxy, 138 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: which were the type of feelings that had mercury in them. 139 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: Pure mercury. It was. It was a mixture of liquid 140 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: elemental mercury and something to harden it up. Silver, Yes, 141 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: silver feelings. Did you hear that? And don't give me 142 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: the chemical element, don't don't do it, don't. Well, they 143 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: looked silver, They looked silver. Yes, you're right, So maybe 144 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: it's not actual silver. Maybe it looks oh, it is 145 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: actual silver. Okay, looks like silver. Got it, got it? 146 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 1: Got it? Prime Stories with Nancy Grace. Okay, holistic cures, 147 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen. I'm not knocking holistic cures, but all I 148 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: can it's just pingponging off the inside of my skull 149 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: is Steve Jobs. Remember he wanted he had a curable cancer, 150 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,719 Speaker 1: but he wanted a natural cure and he died a 151 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: natural death. I mean holistic cures. I believe in them. 152 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: My mother, my grandma, mother, we all had holistic cures 153 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: growing up for various maladies. But at a certain point, 154 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: I think you've got to fall back on western medicine 155 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: or am I just brainwashed? What about it, doctor Moroney? 156 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: There's certain things you just can't find in holistic herbs. 157 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: You know, we don't treat people really with silver, and 158 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: we don't treat people with mercury. And the old days 159 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: he used mercury to kill baggaria. That's bad for the 160 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: body now, just like we have in this case. True 161 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut too. This is Tyler 162 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: at crime Online. Despite treatment for lupus, Tammy Harris's health 163 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: did not improve. She was wheelchair bound, her way to 164 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: drop to just seventy pounds, and her hair and fingernails 165 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: had fallen out. The couple traveled from Moscow, Idaho, to 166 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: New York in search of a holistic doctor. When Tammy 167 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: suddenly collapsed in the lobby of the law New York 168 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 1: Palace hotel. She died six days later. Okay, right there, 169 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: down to seventy pounds, her hair and nails had fallen out. 170 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: Instead of putting her in the hospital, he was carting 171 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: her around from hotel to hotel trying to find a 172 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: holistic cure. Okay, so what killed her? Take a listen 173 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: to our cut three again, tyer hunt Crime Online. An 174 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: autopsy determined that Tammy Harris died from an overdose of 175 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: the dietary supplement selenium. Selenium, a trace mineral, is considered 176 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: safe in small doses, but the City Medical Examiner found 177 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: eight times the average amount of selenium in Harris's system. 178 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: In large amounts, selenium can cause a variety of health issues, 179 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: from hair loss to kidney failure, and in rare case's death, 180 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: An investigation revealed Tammy Harris was taking the supplement on 181 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 1: the advice of her doctor husband, who did not believe 182 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: his wife had lupus. He insisted that she suffered from 183 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: mercury poisoning. Working at a dental office. Several years prior, 184 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: Doctor Harris kept up the pretense that his wife was 185 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: taking what she had been prescribed by her doctors, but 186 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: instead she was taking medicines prescribed by her husband, which 187 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:03,319 Speaker 1: continued her spiraling health problem. Doctor Sherry Schwartz, why would 188 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: you not seek a specialist and rely on your own 189 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: m D. Your medical doctor, which I think he was 190 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 1: a GP general practitioner. Could you find that exact? He's 191 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: an internist. Okay, that adds to his credibility in this area, 192 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: But why would you not see the wisdom seeking another 193 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: health professional as opposed to just giving your wife high 194 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: doses of selenium. Well, one of the things that they say, Nancy, 195 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: is that doctors are in fact the worst patients because 196 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 1: they think that they know better than the practitioner, or 197 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: at least as much as the practitioner. And in doctor 198 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: Harrins's case, he may have had some success before in 199 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: his own practice with alternative remedies, so he may be 200 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: believed that he knew his wife best, he knew the 201 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: illness best, and he could treat it best. Doctor Moroney, 202 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 1: isn't there something unethical about that? Or no? Art totally 203 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: an ethical? That is so off the wall, you don't 204 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 1: treat your children, you don't treat your parents, you don't 205 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,839 Speaker 1: treat your wife. You send your children to a pediatrician 206 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: because of conflict of interest. That's one of the reasons 207 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: is probably things like this, and then narcotics. You would 208 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: never do this. Everything he's doing is going against what 209 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: we learn. This is reminding me of another case we 210 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: recently covered. Let's take a listen to my longtime friend 211 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: from CNN, Janekasarus our cut thirteen prosecutors say Martin McNeil 212 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: forced his wife Michelle to have a facelift, then plied 213 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: her with a laundry list of painkillers and depressants. My 214 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: dad was telling the plastic surgeon what medication he wanted. 215 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: I vividly remember this, and he told me that he 216 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: gave her the arnica at a valium, the lord tab 217 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: the Fennergan, and then gave her two percosets at one 218 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: thirty am and then one ambient at thirty am. As 219 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, doctor McNeill insisted that the treating 220 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: physician add on additional painkillers and additional medications that were 221 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: not normally prescribed following a facelift. A very long and 222 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: arduous surgery that Michelle endured about seven hours under the knife, 223 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: but the husband, her husband, doctor Martin McNeill, stepped in 224 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: and interfered with what the doctor prescribed and added additional prescriptions. Well, 225 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut fifteen. This is Marcus 226 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: Ortiz ABC four Utah. At first it was ruled accidental. 227 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: A week earlier, she had cosmetic surgery and Martin McNeill 228 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: was personally medicating her at the time. Alexis Summers was 229 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: a medical student and was already suspicious. My mother began 230 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: to suspect that my father was having an affair, and 231 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: she confided in me. It turned out her mother was light. 232 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: Gypsy Willis was Martin McNeill's mistress. Did the relationship become sexual? 233 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: It did? One was that I think that was in 234 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: January of two thousand and six. Summers set out to 235 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: prove her father gave their mother the wrong drugs, causing 236 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: her death. We uncovered who he truly was and he 237 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: was actually a monster. McNeill introduced Willis as the younger 238 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: children's nanny and moved in. Unhappy with the police investigation, 239 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: Rachel McNeill began investigating her father online. Gypsy's roommate who 240 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: contacted me and said that Gypsy she overheard Gypsy saying 241 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: that she wanted to cut the break lines from my mother. 242 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: Willis allegedly wanted Michelle McNeill out of the way. That 243 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: was doctor Martin McNeill. Michelle McNeill suffered an over medication death. 244 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: She was odad on Peel's given to her by her husband, 245 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: the doctor. Now, in no way are we suggesting that 246 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: this doctor, doctor Jeffrey Harris, was having an affair or 247 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: anything of the sort. We are stating that he was 248 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: giving her large amounts of selenium. Now, doctor William Moroney 249 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: does what do large amounts of selenium due to a person? 250 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: And doctor McNeil is just one of the many examples 251 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: as to why doctors are not supposed to treat their spouse. 252 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: Selenium as a micro nutrient is important for enzymatic function, 253 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: the growth of skin, the growth of bones, the growth 254 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: of hair, and the growth of your nails, and a 255 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: very important enzyme called glutathione peroxidase that helps take peroxides 256 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: out of the system, and peroxides are very toxic, but 257 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 1: that's only when it's in micro nutrient concentrations. Otherwise, it's 258 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 1: just as toxic as any other metal, heavy metal, or 259 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: anything else in the biological system. He knew what he 260 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: was doing. It was murder, and he was lying about it, 261 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: telling everybody else that the regular treatment for lupus and 262 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: mercury that was still there, and he was substituting all 263 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 1: this super selenium concentration. Very suspicious. You believe doctor Moroney 264 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: that he need fullwell what he was doing. On the 265 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: other hand, take a listen to our cut five from 266 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: Crime Online. Joshua Hubbard, Tammy Harris's son, tells the New 267 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: York Daily News that he has no doubt Jeffrey Harris 268 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: loved his mother. He says, quote he loved her deeply, 269 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: almost to a fault. I do not believe he intended 270 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: to hurt her in any way end quote. Hubbard also 271 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: told the Daily News that he has a lot of 272 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: compassion for jeff Harris, saying Harris was a physician who 273 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: thought he could cure his wife, but what he was 274 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: doing was wrong. Hubbard said it was a very confusing 275 00:18:53,480 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: time and quote incredibly weird time stories with Nancy Grace. 276 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,439 Speaker 1: So let me clarify. Talkt to Moroney. You're saying that 277 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: he intended to give her the selenium or are you 278 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: saying he intended to give her that much selenium knowing 279 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: that death could result. I'm saying he intended to give 280 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: those high doses and was hiding it, So that's suspicious. 281 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: He was leading her to a path that was incapacitating 282 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: her that ended up leading to homicide. You know, that's 283 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: a really good point that you just made. Darrell Cohen, 284 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: former felony prosecutor in inner city Atlanta, now high profile 285 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: defense attorney in Atlanta. The fact that he was in 286 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: fact hiding it. He was stating that and correct me 287 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, Nicole apartment, because this is crucial. It's 288 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: critical in this case Nicole. Wasn't he telling everyone that 289 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: she was taking medications of treatment prescribed to her by 290 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: other doctors than himself, right, And he was telling her 291 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: to tell those doctors that she was taking those medications 292 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: when in fact, she was not taking the medications prescribed 293 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: by the other doctors. Got it? Who was only taking 294 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: the medications her husband was prescribing to her and giving her. Okay, 295 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor now private attorney, Daryl that does, 296 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: just like Maroney said, make it more nefarious the fact 297 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: that he was covering his tracks in the sense that 298 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 1: he was lying that she was about what medications she 299 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: was getting. She was only getting medications he prescribed, not 300 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: what the regular doctors told her to take. This is 301 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: nothing more and nothing less than a conspiracy of one. 302 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: He conspired to kill her. She went along with it, 303 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 1: maybe because she thought he was doing the right thing 304 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: and the other physicians did not. But this is so nefarious, Nancy. 305 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: It's straight down the line of why a physician does 306 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: not and should not treat his family member for anything 307 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: serious other than a cold, other than tripping and needing 308 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: a band aid of some sort. Yeah, and he takes her, 309 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: reportedly all the way from their home in Moscow, Idaho, 310 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: to New York to get treatment, to find holistic doctors. 311 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: But yet he's covering up the fact that he is 312 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: the one prescribing her with this heavy dose of selenium. 313 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: Now you can find selenium naturally in brazil nuts, tuna, 314 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: oysterous pork, beef, chicken, tofu, pasta, shrimp, mushrooms, all sorts 315 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: of things, but not to this extent. Justin Bordman joining me, 316 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: former Special Victims Unit detective in West Valley, author of 317 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: I Was Wrong, An Investigator's battle cry for change and 318 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: the Special Victims Unit justin I want you to listen 319 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: to another case now. In this case, the parents think 320 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: they're absolutely doing the right thing. Take a listen to 321 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: our cut ten. This is Katie Johnson, CBS Miami. Two 322 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: parents in Cape Coral are charged with the death of 323 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: their eighteen month old son. The baby waged just seventeen 324 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: pounds at the time of his death. Experts say seventeen 325 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: pounds is what a seven month old should weigh, not 326 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: a baby who's a year and a half old. A 327 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 1: Lee County grand jury indicted Ryan Patrick O'Leary and Sheila 328 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: O'Leary Wednesday on charges a first degree murder, aggravated child abuse, 329 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: aggravated manslaughter, child abuse, and two counts of child neglect. 330 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: According to a police report, the mother called nine one 331 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: one in September when she noticed her son was not 332 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 1: breathing and felt cold. According to Newspress, the baby was 333 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 1: dead when paramedics arrived. The state attorney for the case 334 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: says the indictmentsa also include three other children who suffered 335 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: child abuse and extreme neglect. They are three years old, 336 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: five years old and eleven years old. But that's not all. 337 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: Listen to cut ten A Megan braw NBC two. We're 338 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: also learning the three other children in the home we're 339 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 1: only allowed to eat raw fruits and vegetables, and two 340 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: of them were severely underweight. Sheila and Ryan did admit 341 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: to police they thought something was wrong with her baby 342 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: weeks before, but didn't call for help. In this nine 343 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: page report just obtained by NBC two, Sheila tells police 344 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: the baby became sick six months ago and was throwing 345 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: up and lost weight about a week before the baby died. 346 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 1: Sheila says they're eighteen month old, stopped eating and would 347 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: only breastfeed occasionally. The medical examiner says the baby was 348 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: extremely malnourished, dehydrated, and feet were swollen. Sheila says the 349 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: baby has never been to the doctor and was born 350 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: inside their home. Cape Coral police also say two other 351 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: children were also extremely underweight and one of their children's 352 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 1: teeth were rotting. Sheila told police the family would sleep 353 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: in the living room with one child on a hammock 354 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: and another on a dogbed. Justin, boardman, have you ever 355 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 1: heard anything like it? Justin I don't know if you 356 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: have children or not. But you don't give a kneeborn 357 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: baby raw fruit and veggie's to eat. They can only 358 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 1: take liquids. The child died and they had them on 359 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: some wacky, holistic raw fruit and veggie diet. It's terrific, 360 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: just right out of the gates. It sounds terrific. It 361 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: had to have been a horrible scene. And you don't. 362 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: Where I start having some issues is where the mental 363 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 1: health of the offenders come into play, and to try 364 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: to find the intent. Was the intent to actually kill 365 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: them or to keep them pure? If you will, justin boardman, 366 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: no offense. But did you get your law degree that 367 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:02,120 Speaker 1: I didn't know about it? No? Did you say no? Okay, 368 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: let me school you very quickly that the law presumes 369 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 1: that you intend the natural consequence of your act. For instance, 370 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: if I take a gun, put in a bullet, pointing 371 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: at Jackie over here, I kill her at least once 372 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: a day, and in my mind, okay, point at her 373 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: and pull the trigger and kill her. And then I 374 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: went oops, I only meant to scare her, b s 375 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: Because the law presumes I intend to kill her when 376 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: I point a gun at her and pull the trigger. 377 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 1: You don't feed your child food. You try to give 378 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: a little bitty baby a piece of apple or no, 379 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: a child cannot eat at that young age. So the 380 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: natural consequence of your act is a starvation death. Now 381 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: keep that in mind when you go to law school. Okay, 382 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: Darrell co and go ahead. I know law school is 383 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: a one hederful thing. I reluctantly agree with you, Nancy. Oh, 384 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,360 Speaker 1: it hurts me to agree with you, but I am 385 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: agreeing with you. This is the first. Now listen speaking 386 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: of their state of mind, and I'm glad you brought 387 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,719 Speaker 1: that up, justin Bourman, because neither of them were insane 388 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: under the legal sense of the word. I want you 389 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: to listen to our cut Tien b our friend Rachel 390 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 1: Lloyd at Fox Fourth. Sheila O'Leary's attorney told me all 391 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: the kids living in this home were healthy. And now 392 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: I did ask him about the claims of malnourishment, and 393 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: he says O'Leary actually breastfed her son just a few 394 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: hours before he died, so he doesn't think malnutrition was 395 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: the cause of death. Now, Sheila O'Leary and her husband 396 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: Ryan face a manslaughter charge after their baby died. Here 397 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: back in September. They turned themselves in last night after 398 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:53,400 Speaker 1: the medical examiner revealed malnutrition caused the baby's death. O'Leary's attorney, 399 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: John Muska told me on Skye today that his client 400 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: was so religious that she did not allow any of 401 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: her four kids to watch television. He also says she's 402 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: vegan but fed her children balanced mills. But he did 403 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: say there were health concerns regarding the toddler before he died. Yeah, 404 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: he was starving. The child had been sick six months 405 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: prior and had not fully recuperated. The child had started 406 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: eating better, and then the child began teething, and the 407 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 1: mother was concerned, very concerned that that was causing him 408 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: to not eat as well. He was suffering, all right, 409 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 1: because he was starving. That was the problem. Prime stories 410 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace to you, doctor William Moroney. Just as 411 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: doctor Jeffrey Harris was oding his wife with selenium, thinking 412 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: he was giving her a holistic cure. I mean, and 413 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: that's putting it in the best light favorable to the defendant. 414 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: Just like these parents, they killed a child, now she's dead. 415 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: The biggest difference is he was covering up what he 416 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: was doing. And using the situation that what he was 417 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: really doing was another doctor was treating her, so he 418 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: was hiding the fact that he was giving these high doses. 419 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: Is that shreue Nicole Parton tell me how if he 420 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: did that, he hid the truth. He was in fact 421 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 1: keeping this hid. But the doctors eventually caught on to 422 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: what was happening, and they even asked him, please be 423 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: a supportive husband, not a doctor. Let us doctor, just 424 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: to be a supportive husband. So there was a point 425 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: in all of this where the doctors caught on to 426 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: what was happening, realizing that she wasn't taking the medication 427 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: they were prescribing. She was only taking what her husband 428 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: was telling her to take. So the doctor, her regular 429 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: trading physicians knew what was happening. Right, that's right. This 430 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: is not the first and I'm afraid it won't be 431 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: the last of a family member forcing a health regiment 432 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: on their children. Take a listen to our cut two 433 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: from crime Online. Carla Griguez says she kept her son 434 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: Camary on a biblical vegan diet because she didn't want 435 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: to carry a fat ass child, and he would often 436 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: be fed fruits and vegetables crushed with boiled potatoes. According 437 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: to the child's grandmother, Coriguez told The New York Post, 438 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: she believes vegan means everything that's in the Bible. Okay, 439 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: doctor Moroney helped me out all jibes aside. There you 440 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: see a young mother describing her child as quote fat 441 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: ass and would only give him fruits and veggies crushed 442 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: with boiled potatoes, claiming he was on some sort of 443 00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: a biblical diet as you and I both as me, 444 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: of course, not as accomplished as you, biblical scholar. They 445 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: had a lot more than that in the Bible. But 446 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: that said misguided and deadly. Well, they eat lamb, they 447 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: eat chicken, they eat fish. They may have had beer. 448 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: I know they had wine, and they had bread. So 449 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: there's a lot of things where these people get their 450 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: information that this is healthy and that this follows some 451 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: religious guidelines. This is pathological, this is mental illness. Well 452 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: wait a minute. When you say mental illness, though, to 453 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: doctor Sherry Schwartz, author of Criminal Behavior and for Law 454 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: and Psychology, intersect doctor Sherry to say it is a 455 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: mental illness, I don't know about that. I think the 456 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: opportunity to totally lord over someone control even what they eat. 457 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: I don't know that that's a mental illness. I know 458 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: it's not insanity because these people knew how to lie 459 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: to see why. A that's a technical legal term. I 460 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: think you're familiar with it when they're caught well correct, 461 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: and that type of controlling, manipulative behavior, obsessive behavior might 462 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: be a component of a mental illness, but not necessarily 463 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: a mental illness in and of itself. Right, And just 464 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: because somebody's mentally ill, as you know, Nancy, when we 465 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: talk about the concept the legal concepts of insanity, that 466 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,719 Speaker 1: does not mean they don't know the difference between right 467 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: and wrong. So you may have these very hardcore beliefs, 468 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: and even if you believe you're doing the right thing, 469 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: you see this person suffering, so you must know that 470 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: something is wrong. Will you see your wife down to 471 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: seventy pounds and she has no fingernails or hair? Wouldn't 472 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: that be the time that you would call in an 473 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: expert and not rely on your selenium supplements to cure 474 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: Doctor Moroney, I think every time he looked at her, 475 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: he was It's like that body morphic disorder. He didn't 476 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: see what she was or he continually blamed what he 477 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: saw misguidedly on mercury. So he was covering his behind 478 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: because everything he was doing was wrong, unethical, immoral. So 479 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: even if Daryl co when he did not have the 480 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: specific intent to kill her, if he had performed a felony, 481 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: which I would have to say aggravated battery, not aggravated 482 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: as salt, but battery to the extent that she was 483 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: losing her hair and her fingernails, that in the course 484 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: of this felony a death occurred, which equals felony murder. 485 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: You follow that legal logic, could he be charged with 486 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: felony murder as well as in the alternative malice murder 487 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: with the intent to kill? So a jury would have 488 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: two alternatives. I think he could be charged with both, 489 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: but I'm sure it will be evicted of either one. 490 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: I think aggravated battery would be a much better charge 491 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: to be convicted because he will argue in this guy 492 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: with his ego, he will jump on the witness stand 493 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: and listen and make it heard from all the the 494 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: right thing. And he was trying his best for this 495 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: alternative medicine, and he was treated her because no other 496 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: physician would do the right thing. Oh, how happy I 497 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: would be if he did take the stand to explain 498 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: all that, so I could have him across exam. And 499 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: the first question I would ask doctor William Moroney, is 500 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: isn't it true that you hid from the doctors, from 501 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,959 Speaker 1: her family, from the world, that you were no longer 502 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: following the advice of doctors but had launched into your 503 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: own alternative medical treatment. In other words, eight times the 504 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: normal amount of selenium was found in her body, she 505 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: had no hair, she had no fingernails, she ate seventy pounds, 506 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 1: and he did not call a specialist, he did not 507 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 1: put her in the hospital. There's no way he could 508 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: withstand that a cross exam, doctor Moroney. The main thing 509 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: that stands up is when you treat somebody like that, 510 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: you have to measure and monitor the selenium, and you can't. 511 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: It's too expensive and too difficult. So if you're not 512 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,240 Speaker 1: monitoring it and you're giving it in large amounts, that's 513 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: your number one problem, that the toxicity's there. The second 514 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: problem is alternative medicine. While it's an alternative, still has 515 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: to have some kind of evidence that it's been published 516 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 1: or proven to work. I do not know anybody in 517 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: America that's eated mercury poisoning with selenium. He has nothing 518 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: to stand on medically or scientifically. And did you know 519 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: doctor Moronia, I think Nicole Parton with Crime Online mentioned 520 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: this earlier. When the autopsy was performed, they also determined 521 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: that she was starved. She was actually starved. Not only 522 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: was she odeed on selenium, she was starved and he 523 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: stood by and let that happen. The prosecutors also say 524 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: doctor Moroney and I quote, he cheated doctors by pretending 525 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: his wife was taken what she had been prescribed. Anytime 526 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: you have an adult that doesn't get enough nutrition, we 527 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,879 Speaker 1: call that failure to thrive. The only time you see 528 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: failure to thrive is end of life and hospice. And 529 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: that's putting somebody that is so far out, that is 530 00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: so How bad is that male nutrition? The scientific name 531 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 1: is in admission and the long phrase is failure to thrive. 532 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: We do not create failure to thriving people to treat 533 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: any other condition. You know, I looked up the effects 534 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: of mercury o D. Exposure to mercury lost a peripheral vision, 535 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: she didn't have that, pans and feeling pans and needles, 536 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: feelings and hands, feet around mouth, didn't hear him about that. 537 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: Lack of coordination, no impairment of speech, sharing walking, no 538 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 1: muscle weakness. None of those really fit with what he 539 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,479 Speaker 1: says she had. Guys take a listen to our cut 540 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 1: four from Crime Online. Doctor Jeffrey Harris is charged with 541 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: second degree manslaughter. He pleaded not guilty and is being 542 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: held on a three thousand dollar bond. When the judge 543 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: asked why second degree manslaughter charges were brought rather than murder, 544 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 1: Assistant District Attorney Valerie Meyer referenced Terris's quote, sincere belief 545 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: that his wife suffered mercury poisoning and that spared him 546 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: the more serious murder charge end quote. Doctor Harris's lawyer 547 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: says his clan wants to clear his name, telling the 548 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: court he has no incentive to flee and has cooperated 549 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,839 Speaker 1: with New York detectives during their investigation. M I think 550 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,760 Speaker 1: that was a huge mistake. They should have charged him 551 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: with intentional murder murder one murder two voluntary involuntary in 552 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 1: felony murder and then let a jury decide what the 553 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: truth is. They're going to have to live with their 554 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: charging decision when they take this to a jury. Right now, 555 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: it's not three thousand, it's three hundred thousand dollars bond. 556 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: I anticipate he will get out on bond. Whether he 557 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: will flee will be another matter. We wait as justice unfolds. 558 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story, signing off goodbye friend,