WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: The Ourang Medan 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.600 Hey guys, Steve here, you are listening to one of 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:06.600 our original twenty six episodes. If you listen to any 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:09.280 of our new episodes, you're gonna notice that we're sounding 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:11.639 a little different in these ones. Yeah, there's a reason 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:14.480 for that. There is they've been remastered. They have been 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:18.040 remastered because they had a really annoying hum. Yeah, I 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:21.480 mean a huge thanks to listener James for doing almost 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:23.880 all of the legwork on this thing. They'll also notice 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:25.880 if you had listened to what we're calling the last 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:29.639 twenty six episodes before and you're re listening now, the 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:33.160 music and sound effects are gone. Yes, we've we've gone 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:35.720 back to straight audio, so be warned. We sound a 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:38.040 little different today than we do in what you're about 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:46.720 to listen to. Yeah, enjoy, Bye bye, Thinking Sideways. I 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:56.600 don't understand. I'm you never know stories of things we 0:00:56.680 --> 0:01:01.480 simply don't know the answer too. Well. Hi there, and 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:04.480 thanks again for joining the show. This is Thinking Sideways 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.440 the podcast, and I am Steve, and as always, on 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:11.240 my left is Joe. Hello everybody, and on my right 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:14.880 is Devon h And we are going to once again 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:19.040 review a story that doesn't quite have an answer. Now 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:22.600 this week, we were lucky enough we are not alone 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:25.480 in our review of the story. We were able to 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:29.720 get ahold of the known author, Roy Bington. She was 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:32.560 nice enough to talk with us about the story. But 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.920 before we get to that, let's let's let Roy introduce himself. Well, 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:39.800 my names Roy Benjon B A, I M. T O. N. 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.280 And I'm a right to and a journalist and an author. 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:49.040 But you've been doing for about seventeen years now. So 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:52.720 this story the Ring mcdan is also commonly referred to 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:56.960 as the death Ship like that. It's it's a creepy 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:00.200 story and it's been around for a long long time time. 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:02.440 This is one of those this stories been around since 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:06.160 the late forties. This story was told by salty old 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:08.960 dogs to to the young guys on the ships all 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:11.440 the time. As as a matter of fact, that's how 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:15.040 Roy heard it for the first time. Well, I've got 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.720 to go back to the source. The first time I 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:22.320 had it was actually verbally. I was on an old 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:27.560 merchant ship called the the Port's Halifax and we were 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:32.960 crossing from Panama to to Australia. This vessel used to 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.839 travel at top speed of about twelve miles an hour. 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:39.640 You know, and he used to take us three weeks 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:43.160 to get from Panama to Australia. And on the night 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:45.280 after the watch, we'd have a few beers in the 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:49.600 mess room and people would tell stories, creepy stories about 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:54.160 about the sea, etcetera. And I remember this one coming 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:58.160 up because it really held the whole mess and we 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:01.959 were all set around thinking, Jesus, what's this just for 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:04.200 the benefit of our listeners, what exactly are the details 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:07.880 of this interesting story? Well, I'm glad you asked, Joe. 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:11.160 So here's the story. And we don't know if it's 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:16.799 N seven or nine. But in the Straits of Malacca 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:21.880 there was a radio transmission which picked up and it 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:25.560 was in Morris code. So the radio transmission was picked 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:28.359 up by several ships in the area as well as 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:32.280 on land, and everybody that had picked it up they 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:34.440 started talking to each other to try to figure it out, 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:39.200 and they triangulated approximately where it was at and the 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:43.440 closest ship was the Silver Star. So the Silver Star 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:48.119 of course went to lend aid to the ship that 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:52.120 is sending out a distress call. Now here's the creepy part. 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:58.120 The first transmission says all officers including captain are dead, 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:02.920 lying in chart room and ridge, possibly whole crew dead. 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:08.120 And then a short time later, one more transmission is 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:13.640 picked up and all it says is I die. So 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:17.480 that's that's all there is in terms of actual transmissions 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:22.360 from this ship, which is later comes to be discovered, 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:24.960 according to the story, to be the out Ring Madan. 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:28.080 You know, so that this is particularly creepy to me 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:32.039 because of the phrasing of it. It implies that this 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.599 person is not part of the crew, and I think 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:36.880 that's not true. I think that it's probably just that 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:40.560 you know, there it's not maybe English isn't the first language, 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:43.240 or maybe I think it's the chain of command thing, 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:47.279 you got to give things in rank and order. But 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:52.280 it just seems like possibly whole crew. Yeah yeah, yeah, exactly, 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:55.760 but maybe met whole crew but me. But I remember, 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:58.760 this is a story that's been told many times, and 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:02.640 whoever the radio operator or operators were that wrote this down, 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:04.599 none of us have None of us have access to 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.920 that piece of paper they wrote the message. Yeah, so 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.640 there might be some in precision there ship certainly the 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:14.360 like I said before, the closest star, the closest ship 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:18.640 is the Silver Star. So she goes to lend aid. 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:25.160 And when the crew arrives, and I've seen again multiple accounts. 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:28.480 Some say the sea was calm and she was gently floating. 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:31.320 Some say the sea was rough and she was, you know, 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:36.000 being batted around by the ocean under no power. But 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:39.240 when they get to the ship and they discovered that 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:43.120 it is, according to the accounts, the houring mcdan. So 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.680 they came alongside and they boarded the ship. So that 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:49.000 that lens creates the theory that there was probably a 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:52.000 calm day if they were able to yeah, exactly. And 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:54.279 that's that was one of the things that I went see. 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:57.120 They was gonna ask you, is how exactly did they 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.400 get aboard this thing? Yea, it happened had been a 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:03.719 calmer at least calmer sees if nothing else. But then 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:05.440 having lived on a ship, I can tell you it 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:10.080 had to be pretty dang calm, okay something like. So 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:14.320 they get aboard and this is when the creep factors 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:17.960 starts to ratch it up. The entire crew is dead 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:23.520 all over the ship. According to the accounts, the entire 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:27.440 every crew member that they found was dead. And I 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:32.000 believe the phraseology is in a rictus of fear, so 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:36.080 their eyes are open, their hands are clawed, some of 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:38.279 them have their mouths open, you know, staring at the 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:42.800 skies as if they're screaming or scared to death of something. 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:47.679 Even the ship's dog was frozen, and this rictus fear. 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:50.680 So we we don't know exactly what's going on at 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:55.040 this point. Now the Silver Star decides what we need 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:56.880 to figure out what's going on, and we need to 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:01.080 haul this ship back. And something's bad here, so they 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:05.559 go to tire up and want to hauler back to port, 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:11.320 at which point somebody realizes that there is spoke coming 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:14.440 out of the hour Ring Madan. They cut the lines, 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:18.200 they pull away as quick as they can. The ship 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:22.360 explodes and sinks to the bottom. I feel like I 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.320 remember an account saying like it was lifted out of 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:28.240 the sea. It exploded so hard and like then just 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:32.600 sank within a matter. I've seen that account before, and 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:35.960 it's unclear. All we know is something happened and the 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:41.240 ship blew up and sank to the bottom. So whatever happened, 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:45.320 we have no way of knowing what that is. So 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:49.240 that's the end of the ship. So one other and 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:52.480 one and another telling of the story the crew of 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:56.680 the Silver Star went below decks and looking for looking 0:07:56.720 --> 0:08:00.520 for anybody who was alive, went into an area not sure, 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:02.600 I'm not clear if it was the hold or exactly 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:05.440 where the machinery spaces, I don't know, but learning in 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:08.040 an area and it was cold, according to their account, 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:12.640 and then and then they came back above above decks 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:16.120 and that's when fire started to break out. And in 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:18.640 this telling of the story, there was no explosion, but 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:21.640 essentially the fire sank the ship. It broke the back 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:24.960 of the ship and the ship sank. So that's another 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.800 telling of the story. And that telling of the story 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:31.560 is out there as well. Yeah, so yeah, that's that's 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:36.840 as much as the story itself has ever given us well, 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:38.679 and it sounds like there are a lot of different 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.440 versions of this story, and you're absolutely right, and it's 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:45.000 it's been a story that again, like I said before, 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:52.040 we can't pin down was seven was. It's been floating around, told, 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:55.760 you know, word of mouth for many, many years, spending 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:57.840 of course, people have been looking for the log books 0:08:57.840 --> 0:08:59.720 for the City of Baltimore and the Silver Star and 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:02.240 they can't find them, or else they find them, and 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:05.000 there's no mention of this incident in there. Well you know, 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:07.880 and correct me if I'm wrong, But ships get renamed 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:12.400 fairly frequently during this period of history, and they did so. 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:16.320 The Silver Star in particular, who is said to have 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:22.319 come to the aid of the Aluringmadan, was renamed shortly thereafter. 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.760 Because this is after the war. Ships are being used 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:29.839 and purchased and bought, and I believe the name it 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:33.280 got renamed to the Santa juan Ea or San Juanita. 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:38.079 They keep changing. And Lloyd's Registry, which if anybody doesn't know, 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:42.360 Lloyd's Registry is basically the registry of all ships. So 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:46.960 technically speaking, you should be able to find any ship 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:51.600 and all of the evolutions of its names in that 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:54.920 long and that's the problem that one of the initial 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:58.480 problems that we'll get into later. But the Alring Macdon 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:02.800 is not in there. It doesn't exist in that official 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:08.000 record of all seafaring vessels. Interesting, but let's let's we'll 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:10.080 come back to that because we got we'll get to 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:13.000 that a little bit later. I want to, as we 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:14.240 like to do, I want to I want to go 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:16.439 through all the theories that are out there and then 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:18.439 we can kind of hash them apart and we can 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:21.559 work our way through them. So the very first one 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:26.880 is akin to the Bermuda triangle. It was a u 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:32.000 would huge. So people say, this is the theory that 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:36.800 it was a UFO that came over the ship and 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:43.680 killed the entire crew and then took off sound. Well 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:47.440 that that doesn't explain why the ship blew up. That 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:51.240 that doesn't give there's no there's nothing, there's no facts 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:53.600 in there, There's nothing that a guy could hold on 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.880 to to say, oh, well, there was this weird thing 0:10:57.640 --> 0:10:59.880 and then it happened. Like all we know is that 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:04.480 they were dead. And and you know, I mean the 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:06.480 UFO has swept them with the death ray. You would 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:08.320 think the radio operator, but it would have been killed 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:10.880 as fast as everybody else, Yeah, would have at the 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:14.200 same time. Yeah, And I've got to admit, you know, 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.040 when we talked to Roy, he had a really good 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:23.040 take on this UFOs frightening people to death. Well, why 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.640 haven't many other people been frightened to death by UFOs? 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:28.880 We found streets full of people and the rich to 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:31.319 Sophia lying on the pavement. You know, I don't think 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.360 we have I'm not quite sure about that. You know, 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.520 it was a possibility. There's some pretty bus as stories 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:40.320 around the UFO phenomena. The next theory that's on the 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:44.960 docket is that it didn't actually happen. There's a chance 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:49.320 that this entire story was made up, like an old 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:51.880 wives tale at old wives tale. I mean, if you 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:55.320 think about it, it's the late forties. Guys have seen 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.880 lots of weird stuff in the war, and maybe they've got, 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.000 you know, some version of PTSD, and so they don't 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:07.400 remember right what they saw, so they're reaccounting another story. 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:11.200 But the way they're telling it captures everybody's attention, much 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.600 like we heard, you know, when Roy was talking about 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:16.440 how he had heard it, and it just sticks with you. 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.040 And so the next time that creepy stories being told, 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:21.839 you retell it. And it might very well be. It 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:23.600 would be kind of funny if it might very well 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:26.600 be that the guy who told the story on Roy's 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:28.480 ship was actually the guy who made the whole thing up. 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:30.679 And you know, might he might be, I don't know, 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:34.280 And that's that's the that's the hard part is that 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:37.640 there's no records. Like we talked about it earlier, is 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.400 that you know, I said, there's there's no record of 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:43.960 this ship anywhere. Well, I guess the thing for me 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:47.040 is like when you think of ghost ship stories that 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:50.000 are made up, they usually take it to the next 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:56.199 extreme of like and it haunts the straits forevermore, killing 0:12:56.280 --> 0:13:01.160 other people's ship, you know, you know, And I understand 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.559 like the impulse to say, well, you know, they were 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:06.720 just being practical and they're in their fake right, But 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.000 I just I generally think of if somebody's gonna fake it, 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.120 they tend to go all the way. You're absolutely right, 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:15.800 and a very well might have been made up. But 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:18.520 there's one way to check, and that is to find 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:20.559 the log books for the city of Baltimore and a 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:23.760 Silver Star and look in there and see if there's 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.439 any reference to this incident. You're right, and and there 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:30.720 was an original text that supposedly where the story came from, 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.760 which was in a publication from the U. S. Coast Guard. 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:36.320 For a long long time, I mean, no, nobody's been 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.800 able to find any records of the ship. And it's 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:45.680 only through the dogged research of Roy that we found 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:48.840 out about some of that stuff. The problem with the 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:54.120 whole thing is were did its originally what the old 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.080 guy who told me. It's c who was an old 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:00.280 guy who had been in the North Atlantic in the 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:04.520 U boat. Was you know, these were old guys who 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:08.240 knew every corner of the oceans of the world. Where 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:12.800 did he get it from? So according to Vincent Gaddis, 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:18.640 it had been a press report. But I've searched the 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:24.640 the newspaper library at Collingwood in North London looking for 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:28.040 all reports of shipping from forty seven fortunate eight, and 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:33.440 there's nothing masting the Orange Maerdan. I started then to think, well, 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:36.960 maybe it's one of these kind of silly season stories 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:40.840 where some high reporter thinks, I know what I'll do. 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:43.600 I'll just cobble this story together and put it on 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:46.880 the wires and everybody will go for it. But there 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:51.960 was something mentioned in gud Us, a story about a 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:56.560 report of the tragedy in the document called the Proceedings 0:14:56.680 --> 0:15:01.600 of the Merchant Marine Council, which is part of the 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.920 publicity output for the US Coast Guard. Well, I could 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:08.680 never find this and I didn't believe it existed. I 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:12.280 thought Gaddis had made it up, But then recently a 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:16.640 friend in Australia managed to track it down. Sadly, although 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:20.680 it's an official report. It doesn't tell you anything more 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.800 than we know. It doesn't tell you where the ship 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:27.160 was from, where it was going, what porter had left. 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:32.440 I would expect more thorough documentation in a document like that. 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:36.880 There's nothing. It's just as if the legend has shoehorned 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:42.560 itself into into that particular area, that official area, as 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:46.000 if somebody and the Merchant Marine Council has said that 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:48.880 we're a better stick this Storian. But of course there's 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:52.320 now you would expect if you found the log book 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:56.440 of the Silver Star, obviously to of Baltimore, which I've 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:59.040 tried to do, you would expect that to be a 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.680 report in the low book giving the actual latitude and 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.720 longitude of this. Then you'll be able to pin it down. 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:10.280 But no, it doesn't. That doesn't happen either. I've written 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:12.600 to various sources trying to find out why the log 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:16.760 books might be. Of course, most of the companies that 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:18.840 we're running at that time, and it's just after the 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:22.320 Second World War, a lot of that documentation is probably 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:27.040 filed away in some floor in some buildings somewhere in 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:30.920 Boston and New York. We don't know. So I did 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:35.479 a huge a lot of research into the Philadelphia experiment, 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:38.640 you know, like you know, making a ship invisible lovely idea, 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.320 you know, but there's there's a good explanation for all 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:44.360 of it. But it's a fantastic story. I have a 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.760 horrible feeling that that's what makes me think you around 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:50.680 Madan might be a red herring. I don't know, there's 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:55.800 something behind it. So obviously enough, the trail is cold. 0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:59.920 There's not a lot of paperwork on the ship its 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.360 self that can be found at that point, which is 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:07.840 kind of weird. Again. Yeah, it's it's odd that there's 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:12.399 just so little, and we were lucky enough I had 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:15.240 gone ahead and when I was doing my research, and 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:18.359 this is why we got ahold of Roys. He was 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:20.800 the only one who seemed to have done a lot 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:24.639 of research on it, and he put forward a theory 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:29.040 which I have not really found anywhere else, that seems 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:33.200 pretty plausible and has done the legwork that I think 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:38.320 it lends in credence to maybe possibly being it all right, 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:42.960 then received a communication we seemed rather road from Germany 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:48.280 on very cranky, old typewritten envelope, and it was from 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:50.639 a wonderful guy who I got to be very friendly 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:55.760 with that he's died now, but it's an actual professor 0:17:56.440 --> 0:18:02.200 of marine architecture called theatle sized door for and Theodore 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:06.160 had been on the track of the around Madon for 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:10.760 forty years, ever since the story broke, and he sent 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:16.280 me a photo copy of a thirty two page leaflet 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:20.360 which was in German by a guy called Otto Milky 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:25.760 m I E l k E. And this was from 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:31.000 and it was called us Total Shift under soot See, 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:34.320 which is the death ship of the Southern Seas. And 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.520 this was the Germans. I got the main parts of 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:42.119 it translated, and I thought, who is Otto Milky? And 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:45.840 I found out that the guy actually was a German 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:48.120 emy grave but he was actually living in my hometown 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:51.520 up in Hall in Yorkshire. So I went to look 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.720 for him and found out he died. So he was dead. 0:18:55.840 --> 0:19:01.440 But he raised some interesting points about the death of 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.600 these sailors on the around Madan. That they could have 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:10.920 been carrying poison gases such as zayan carli which is 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:19.399 potassium cyanide and possibly explaining the explosion nitro glycering. Now 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:22.679 this if they had such a mixture on board, how 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:25.720 it would have gone and recorded is a mystery. But 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:28.880 you know, even fifty years ago, this would have ensured 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:31.960 reams and reams of paperwork to get this kind of 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:36.240 a cargo going. But if you think of the situation 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:43.280 which the Dutch had with their East Indies Empire after 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:47.040 the Second World War, they were trying to re establish 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:50.040 their foothold after the Japanese had been ejected from that 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.440 part of the world, and they had a lot to face. 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:56.520 Although the Japanese had gone, communist insurgency had sprung up 0:19:56.560 --> 0:20:00.119 in their place, and there was a terrific battle, what 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:04.280 a lot of unpleasant imperialist genocide going on over there. 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:09.760 We could be talking about the Orangeadan if it existed 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:14.840 carrying a cargo of poison gas for use in this 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:19.800 campaign against the people who did not want the Dutch 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:23.840 to come back. You know, that's always a possibility, and 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:27.920 I have actually there is a possibility that you know, 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:31.000 if this was an accident on board the ship and 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:35.720 they were carrying an unsecured hazardous materials, there could have 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:38.600 been any kind of poisoning. You know, I looked into 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:43.399 other areas of what could have happened. Now if this 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:50.680 vessel was carrying poison gases, for use in a military campaign, 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:56.320 gases which were banned by international law, and gases which 0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:59.240 would not have got a manifest as a cargo from 0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:03.760 any shipping authority. Then it could have been a very 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:07.000 early example of what you guys called black op. Now 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:11.600 after the war, if you look at the records, and 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:16.560 this is where professors Sears Dover helped me immensely. Literally 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:21.760 dozens and dozens of German cargo ships or actually taken 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:27.439 over by the Allies, especially the British, for one particular reason, 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:34.480 and that was to dispose of poison gases which the 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:39.280 Nazis had manufactured. And these ships and I have a 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:43.119 list of all the ships, the tonnages, and I know 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:45.959 where they've all been sank. They were taken out by 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:50.000 volunteer crews. They were loaded to the to the decks 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:57.439 which sarin tabne mustard gas and they were just sunk 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:02.959 by opening the sea cocks or detonating a charge. Um. 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:06.840 These ships are actually lying on the bottom of the 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:12.920 let'll see the Atlantic, the Baltic, all over the place, Okay, 0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:14.879 And that makes a lot of sense. It wouldn't be 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:16.639 that tough to take one of those things. Paying a 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:19.240 new name on his bow and then send it off, 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:21.399 you know, send it off somewhere if you think that 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:24.360 somebody somewhere needs some poison gas, or maybe somebody made 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:27.200 you an offer you couldn't refuse, or maybe you just 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:30.479 wanted to make some money, or you wanted to get 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:32.119 rid of it and you didn't want it to be 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:36.480 able to get tracks to its original name. There's every 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:41.720 one of these is plausible. There's if if royce theory 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:46.680 is correct, and that they were packing these illegal substances 0:22:47.359 --> 0:22:50.760 to to just scuttle it or to sell it or whatever, 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:54.480 and something went wrong, there's a there's a whole host 0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:58.760 of reasons why that name could have just been made 0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:01.120 up as you, as he said when we were talking 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:03.159 to him, somebody could have just leaned over the side, 0:23:03.359 --> 0:23:06.440 taking a paintbrush and just painted a new name on it. 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:10.359 And absolutely, and if you're yeah, if you're going up 0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:12.720 on some little special trips somewhere that you don't want 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:13.760 to you know, I don't want to have a high 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:16.760 profile or anything like that, you leave, you leave port, 0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:18.680 then you paint your name a new name over the 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:21.240 top of the old name, and then later on, you know, 0:23:21.720 --> 0:23:25.320 change it back. Yeah, and you know another hypothesis that 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:27.480 I should have came up with just now, you know, 0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:30.600 but I like to speculate, and it's of course pure speculation, 0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:34.639 of course, But in this hypothesis, the distress called did 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:38.400 not actually originate with the Orangemudon. It originated with another ship. 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:43.440 So now imagine that. Imagine the Orangemudon had some cargo, 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:48.320 whether it's poison gas or or just ordinary munitions or whatever, 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:51.399 that you don't want to see arriving at its destination. 0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:54.399 And you don't have a navy to speak of, so 0:23:54.520 --> 0:23:56.680 you can't send a battleship out and board it or 0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:59.360 sink it or whatever. You've got to find a way 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:03.840 to get on that ship. So if you know where 0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:06.240 it's going, and for example, you know it's going to 0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:09.440 be going through the Straits of Malacca, because I mean basically, 0:24:09.520 --> 0:24:11.240 if you're in the Pacific and you're saying heading over 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:14.080 towards India or the Mediterranean, whatever, you pretty much have 0:24:14.160 --> 0:24:16.560 to go through the Straits of Malacca. A lot of 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:19.680 the world shipping goes through there. So supposing you know 0:24:20.080 --> 0:24:22.600 when at lease ports, so you know roughly at speed, 0:24:22.680 --> 0:24:24.119 you know when it's going to be in the straits. 0:24:24.760 --> 0:24:29.760 If you have, say, afraid of yourself, than what you 0:24:29.880 --> 0:24:33.520 can do is wait until it's reasonably close by the 0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:37.440 closest ship there is, send out your distress call, and 0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:40.640 then they come alongside. Like your ship which is sitting 0:24:40.640 --> 0:24:43.639 there dead in the water. Now it's got stuff on it, 0:24:43.720 --> 0:24:47.400 it's got maybe explosives, maybe poison gas. You don't really 0:24:47.440 --> 0:24:50.159 want to have a firefight with these guys, So what 0:24:50.280 --> 0:24:53.000