1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of My 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. At an age of eight, my father abandoned 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: my mother and my sister and brother, and I had 4 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: just brought into a restaurant in Jersey City. There, I 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: watched my mother, who had been the person who walked 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,119 Speaker 1: me to school and made lunch for me, all of 7 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: a sudden was thrown into the position of having to 8 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: be a business person and run this restaurant. She had 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: no experience. I'm like eight years old. I'm listening to 10 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: her called vendors and she would say something like the 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: accountants coming in tomorrow to pay bills, I want you 12 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: to mock ten percent off your bill. And you can 13 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: hear on the other side saying why would we do that, 14 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: and she said, well, your invoice could be on the 15 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: top of the pile, or it could be on the 16 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: bottom of the pile. So that's your choice. And I 17 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: watched what I could only call now Moxie. When I 18 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: did this negotiate for discs, I was ruthless. And that's 19 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: who was sitting on my shoulder, him Bom Pittman. And 20 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: welcome to another of our at home episodes of Math 21 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: and Magic. Stories from the frontiers of marketing. Today, we 22 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: have as our guest a great friend, incredible marketer, had 23 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: a great storyteller, So get ready for some useful lessons 24 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: and insights. She's the person responsible for that huge marketing 25 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: success of AOL in the nineteen nineties, taking a O 26 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: L from a few hundred thousand subscribers to over thirty million. 27 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: And if you wonder who was behind the carpet bombing 28 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: of a O L disc back, then well here's your culprit. 29 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: Jan Brandt, the former vice chair and CMO of America Online. 30 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: Jan was born in Brooklyn before Brooklyn was the home 31 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: of cool. She grew up in New Jersey. Had a 32 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: really interesting career marketing with a particular unique skill set 33 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: in direct marketing. And to prove it, she has won 34 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: numerous awards, received a lot of recognition almost every possible forum. 35 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: She loves dogs, travel, and people, and she has a 36 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: wicked sense of humor. Jan welcome, Well, thank you Bob. 37 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: Before we dig into all the stories and your lessons, 38 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: I want to do a little feature. We call you 39 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: in sixty seconds. You're ready. Do you prefer sunrise or sunset? Sunset? California, 40 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: Virginia California, Instagram or Twitter Twitter feature mountains, spring rottum 41 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 1: Omaha steaks or Kansas City Steaks, steaks, aim or a 42 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:46,959 Speaker 1: well chat rooms, rooms, cats or dogs. Dogs. You've got 43 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: mail or sleepless in Seattle. You've got mail, dial up 44 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: or broadband. Okay, it's about to get harder. Smartest person 45 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: you know? One clean first a O L. S Green name, 46 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: private dancer, childhood hero, the lone ranger, first job, copywriter, 47 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: favorite magazine, parenting, favorite city, Paris, guilty pleasure, watching movies 48 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: all night long? And who would play you in a movie? 49 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: Barbara Streisand all right, let's get going. Let's start with 50 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: your most enduring legacy. A O L floppy disk and 51 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: then CDs everywhere, mailboxes, computer boxes, newspaper inserts, even frozen steaks. 52 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: You joined A O L in n near its beginning, 53 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: and a few years before I joined, if I remember correctly, 54 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: A O L just had a couple hundred thousand subs 55 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: back then. But Steve Case and the management group had 56 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: a very big vision. Can you describe that moment and 57 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: how you pivoted to mass marketing. I think I was 58 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: brought on to see how fast and how far we 59 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: could grow the service. I don't think we ever expected 60 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: it to be quite as fast as it was, but 61 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: that was my mission. I was brought in specifically to 62 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: grow the business. It was really an interesting point in 63 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: time because people didn't have home computers very much. The 64 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: penetration was fairly lowed. Mostly people were familiar with computers 65 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: in the workplace. They were starting to migrate to the home. 66 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: Those computers that people had at home, they didn't have modems, 67 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: so a person actually had to have a computer and 68 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 1: a modem in order to use the service. The first 69 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: program started with a direct mail test that I did, 70 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: mailing the discs out. It was a very very expensive proposition, 71 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: and it was one that people thought was kind of 72 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: a crazy thing to do because it was so expensive. 73 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: A package in the mail directed or targeted to someone 74 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: at that time probably was thirty five cents apiece. The 75 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: disc alan was a dollar nineteen, so putting in the 76 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: package of the mail probably caused us a dollar seventy 77 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: five beats. But I felt that the only way that 78 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: we could possibly describe the service to one was to 79 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: let them try it themselves. It's really hard to imagine 80 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: now and saying to someone, well, you're gonna be talking 81 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: on your screen, You're going to be typing, and someone 82 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: else is going to see what you're writing. We didn't 83 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: have screen sharing then, people didn't have computers. They thought 84 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: you were crazy. They would say, well, wanted could just 85 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: pick up a phone and call the person, and so 86 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: it was impossible to really describe the service and do 87 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: it any justice. We sent that mailing out to maybe 88 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: twelve lists. We needed about a three to five percent 89 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: response difference in order to make it work, and we 90 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: got that and more so we were off to the 91 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: races at that point. When you took over, though, I'm 92 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: gonna go back just a little bit. The view was 93 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: that the only possible audience for this, we're sort of 94 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: computer geeks. What was it that caused you and Steve 95 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: and whoever else made this decision that, yeah, you know, 96 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: all these people that don't even have a computer yet 97 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: are barely have a computer and certainly don't know how 98 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: operated are going to be the target market, and that's 99 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: how we're gonna be. For me, I always have to 100 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 1: look at any marketing endeavor and put myself in the 101 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 1: position of the customer. One of my hidden talents is 102 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: that I have a capacity for imagining that I'm the customer, 103 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,559 Speaker 1: and when Steve and I were first talking, he gave 104 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: me a disk. I happened to have a Mac computer 105 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 1: at the time and still do, and I started using 106 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: the service. It was amazing. All of a sudden, I 107 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: have all of these friends that live in my computer. 108 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: And at that point there weren't many customers. We may 109 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: have had three chat rooms open in the range of 110 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: a hundred or fewer people on it, and I could 111 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: see what was happening there. I could see the connections 112 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: that were being made into me. It was always about community, 113 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: and it was always about connecting people, whether it was 114 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: through email or later instant messenger or shared interests. I 115 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: really felt that that was at the core of it, 116 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: and I felt the tug I felt and could understand 117 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: what people, once they started using it, would get out 118 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: of it. Our society was becoming more and more fragmented, 119 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: more and more distant. There was a lot of upward mobility. 120 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: There was a lot of geographic mobility, and to me, 121 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: the secret sauce was the ability of a well to 122 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,119 Speaker 1: connect people. I didn't know it was gonna be thirty 123 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: four million paid subscribers but I had every confidence that 124 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: we were going to be able to reach larger and 125 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: larger numbers. So now I see why you started it, 126 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: why you decided to take that risk. You pushed out 127 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: this very expensive direct marketing. What were the early results? 128 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: Generally for a typical direct marketing package, you would expect 129 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: a one to three percent response, you know, three percent 130 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: would be on the higher level. And this was a test. 131 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: So I was picking things that I thought might work, 132 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: but I had no history. The results of that first 133 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: test would was I think about a hundred or hundred 134 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: and twenty thousand pieces. Was twelve within that twelve percent, 135 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: because that's an average. There were lists that were pulling 136 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: twent I had never before, never since ever seen anything 137 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: like that. And keep in mind that this isn't just 138 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: taking a free offer or a trial. It was a 139 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: trial offer, but that the person had to take the 140 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: credit card, give the credit card information, put the credit 141 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: card information into a computer, and send it out into 142 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: cyberspace and they would be built unless they canceled. It 143 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: was staggering. It's clear it's a success. And I know 144 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: you went on the drive cost down ridiculously low. At 145 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 1: one point, I think you have more CDs and production 146 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: for a O L than existed anywhere else in the world. 147 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: But every time a competitor would do an offer, you 148 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: did this very interesting thing is you would replicate the 149 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: offer with the A Well name on it and tested 150 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: to see if it was better than what you were doing. 151 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: Why on earth do you think a Prodigy and compy 152 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: Serve in the early days and MSN later didn't do 153 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: that day O Well. What used to keep me up 154 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: at night is coming into the office in the morning 155 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: and seeing that Prodigy or CompuServe or Microsoft had copied 156 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: what we were doing, just copied it. I can give 157 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: you an idea of why some people didn't do this. 158 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: Co worker Ted Leonsis did a lot of public speaking. 159 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: Someone either from Prodigy or CompuServe went up to Ted 160 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: and said, what the hell is going on in your company? 161 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: That marketing person is spending so much money, you guys 162 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: are nuts. Ted just shook his head when he came 163 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: back to report that to me. I said, now here's 164 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: what you say to them next time. That you've been 165 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: trying to get that dumb broad fired for you know, 166 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 1: the last two years, and it's driving you crazy and 167 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 1: you can't believe that she's blowing that much money out 168 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: because I just didn't want them to know how well 169 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: it was working. And here's the error that they were 170 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: all making. So they didn't understand the man, even though 171 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: these were smart people. There is this fixation that people 172 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 1: have on what's something cost. But the equation on an 173 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: acquisition cost, which is what really matters, is the cost 174 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: relative to the number of people that you bring in. 175 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: If I spend five times as much but I bring 176 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: in twenty times as many customers, it's in my favor. 177 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: So the cost is clearly the hurdle. And I think 178 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: you're right. I see it today and I'm sending it 179 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: everywhere in my career too. They don't focus on value. 180 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: They focus on cost. You found some other truisms too. 181 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: You found out that the mention of any price always 182 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,839 Speaker 1: depressed results, no matter how good the price was. Yet 183 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 1: every competitor kept talking about their price. What else did 184 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: you consistently find truths that others clearly not see. I 185 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: initiated a cancel safe program where rather than just processing 186 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:11,079 Speaker 1: a cancelation as other services were doing, we train reps 187 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: to find out why the person actually got onto the service. 188 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: To begin with what we're looking for. What inspired you? Oh, 189 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: I see your lessening sounds Greek? Is that true? Or 190 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: you a Greek heritage Oh yes, well we have a 191 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: whole section about the Greek islands online, or we have 192 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: a whole travel section and we have a whole history section. Oh, 193 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: you wanted to work with your child, here's the encyclopedia. 194 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 1: Part of it was never taking no for an answer, 195 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: and another truism in the early stages, which was very 196 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 1: counterintuitive again to people who just weren't paying attention or 197 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: weren't analyzing it. People say, why are you sending us 198 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: somebody just we actually built databases, you know, probably not 199 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: as an exacting way as we would have the capability 200 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: to do now. But back then where we knew how 201 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 1: many disks that we were sending out to people. Now 202 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:05,719 Speaker 1: we couldn't track what they were finding in Barnes and 203 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: Noble or what they were finding at their gas station. 204 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: But in terms of the actual mail, we knew that 205 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: in certain lists, on average we got response after they 206 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: had received four efforts. We were actually tracking that. By 207 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: the end of the Nannies, A o L had half 208 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,719 Speaker 1: the traffic of the Internet in the US, going through 209 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: a well, we won't compy served, Prodigy was left by 210 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: the wayside. MSN couldn't get a a well, why didn't 211 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: any of the other services catch on that the key 212 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: variable was easy convenient. I went to the mat a 213 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: number of times where they wanted to put it on 214 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: two discs, and I remember having knocked down Dragon Fight, 215 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: saying no, it has to be easy, it has to 216 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 1: be simple. Likewise, I was under a lot of pressure 217 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,839 Speaker 1: to go from floppy disks to c d s because 218 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 1: c d s would fix that problem. And I knew that, 219 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: but my customs didn't have c d s. I didn't 220 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: want to switch the c d s when of our 221 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: customers had a disk drive. The CD drive was an 222 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: external add on. You may have been with me on 223 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 1: this meeting, but I was out with Steve Jobs right 224 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: after he returned to Apple, and he was getting ready 225 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 1: to tell me about this new thing he had called 226 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: the iMac, and his innovation was he said, I believe 227 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: the computer is part of the Internet, and I'm gonna 228 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: build the modem into a computer. Today it lives like huh, 229 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: But back then it was such a step forward. He 230 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: understood easy. Why do you think all these other smart 231 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: people at these companies. A lot of resources didn't hit 232 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: on easy. Everybody else have more, they have better, they 233 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: had this, but nobody had easy except us. I can't 234 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: explain that other than I really think that you really 235 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: have to live and breathe a customer in order to 236 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: really at it. I want to talk some about the 237 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: Walled Garden, the early view of the Internet, but first 238 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: I want to go to early Jan. You were born 239 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: in Brooklyn, moved to New Jersey. I think when you 240 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: were about eight. There's this wonderful story and very telling 241 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: about you, about a five year old Jan who wanted 242 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: a library card. Can you repeat that story? Gosh, how 243 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: do you know that story? I know everything. Wow. So 244 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: my mother, who at that time was a stay at 245 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: home mother, she was an Avid and everyone in my 246 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: family were avid Avid readers, newspapers, books, fiction, nonfiction, just 247 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: voracious readers. And she would take me to the library 248 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: and on her library card she was able to get 249 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: four adult books and two children's books. And I would 250 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: be with her and I said, I want four books. 251 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: I don't want two books because I'd have to wait 252 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: a whole week in order to get other ones. And 253 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: so we went to the librarian and asked her to 254 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: get a library part from me. And so she asked 255 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: me to sign my name, and so of course I 256 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: signed it in print, which you know, block letters, whatever 257 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: they were. And she said, now we can't allow that. 258 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: We have to have your name in script. And my 259 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: mother had explained to me what script was. And after 260 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: arguing with the librarian, we went home and my father 261 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: took a piece of paper and he drew out my 262 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: name several times, and he said, just sit here and trace. 263 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: And so for a whole week I traced my name 264 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: over and over and over and over again. I must 265 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: have traced it ten thousand times. And the following week 266 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: we went back to the library, I signed the card 267 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: and got my own library card. Well, I've seen you 268 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: repeat that lesson many times in your career. So this 269 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: world you grew up in the fifties sixties, tell us 270 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: a little bit about the world as you saw it 271 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: then and how that affected you. We didn't have any money. 272 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: We were poor. I mean, we were what they used 273 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: to call back then, working class. You know. I grew 274 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: up with two parents, and then my father, at an 275 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: age of eight, abandoned my mother and my sister and 276 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: brother and I he had just brought into a restaurant 277 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: in Jersey City. We end up moving pretty quickly New 278 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: Jersey City. There, I watched my mother, who had been 279 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: the person who walked me to school and made lunch 280 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: for me and played catch with me while I watched 281 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: baseball games on t V. All of a sudden was 282 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: thrown into the position of having to be a business 283 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: person and run this restaurant. She had no experience. This 284 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: was a restaurant that was open seven in a busy 285 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: business area. She had an office that was in the 286 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: basement and kind of smelled. I would sit there, I'd 287 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: open up one of the drawers of the file cabinet 288 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: lean on it while she'd be on the phone or 289 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: doing the payroll or doing something like that. I'm like 290 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: eight years old or nine years old. I'm listening to 291 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: her called endors and she would say something like the 292 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: accountants coming in tomorrow to pay bill, I want you 293 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: to mock ten off your bill. And you can hear 294 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: on the other side saying why would we do that, 295 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: and she said, well, your invoice could be on the 296 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: top of the pile, or it could be on the 297 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: bottom of the pile. So that's your choice. And I 298 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: watched what I can only call now Moxie. When I 299 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: did this negotiating for discs, I was ruthless and that's 300 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: who was sitting on my shoulder because my view was okay. 301 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: So if they say no, they say no, no one 302 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: is ever going to stop me from coming back and 303 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: saying okay, any right, you know, I'll take that higher price. 304 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: It wasn't about my ego. People get into a negotiation 305 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: and it becomes a lot about their ego, and to me, 306 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: it was always about the company. I remember jan times 307 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: that we really had to dig deep to hit our numbers, 308 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: and you would say, you know, I think I get 309 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: a little more out of this vendor, and you always 310 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: went to that well, and you know what, there always 311 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: was a little more. So that was a great childhood lesson. 312 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,120 Speaker 1: We all benefited from it. It It worked with you. Let's 313 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: move up a little bit. You went to Boston University 314 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 1: School of Communications. You worked for Xerox. You got your 315 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: MBA while while still working there. You're a copywriter for 316 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: Xerox Education Publications, the company that published my Weekly Reader, 317 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: which any one of my age remembers and was I 318 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: think one of the biggest publications of its day. Why 319 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: Xerox and why copyrighting? Where did that come from? Well? 320 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: I wanted to be a writer. I really want to 321 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: be a journalist, and so I had a lot of 322 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: journalism courses and also media courses in undergraduate school. And 323 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 1: how I fell into copyrighting. And it was the summer 324 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: after college and I was visiting my boyfriend in Connecticut. 325 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: I was sitting at the pool and I would tell 326 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: everyone that I was looking for a job. I had 327 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: no job. I never had a real job of waitressing 328 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 1: before that. And I went into this gentleman who said, well, 329 00:18:55,960 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: you know, there's this company, Zerrx Education Publications up the road. 330 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 1: I don't know if any jobs that are open, but 331 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: why don't you give them a call. I quickly ran 332 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: into the house. I called them on the phone. They 333 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: asked me to send a resume in and I said, oh, 334 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: no problem, I'm really close by. I'm just going to 335 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 1: drop it off. And so I showered, a dressed and 336 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: you know everything, really quickly did my hair and went 337 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 1: over and handed it to them. And I got a 338 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 1: phone call from them within a few days. And that 339 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: was it. I mean, that's how I got hired. So 340 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 1: where did you become the marketer? Actually it was a xerox. 341 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: I was a copywriter, and so product managers and marketing 342 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: managers would come into me and direct me, essentially to 343 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: sell their product. I went into my boss, Cathy House, 344 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: who is my first great mentor. I said to her, 345 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 1: you know, I don't really agree with what these people 346 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: are saying that coming in and asked me to write 347 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: things in certain ways. I'm willing to do that, but 348 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: I want to know what I have to do because 349 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 1: I want to be the person directing. And so she 350 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: told me that I needed to be like a product 351 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: manager or marketing manager. I didn't even know what that 352 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: really meant exactly. When I looked in the back of 353 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: some trade magazines at those positions, all of the s 354 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: for these positions said NBA preferred or necessary or so forth. 355 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: So I signed up to my n B A. I 356 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: went to night school. While I was still working there, 357 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: I switched over to the marketing room, so I actually 358 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: started my marketing for a year there. More on math 359 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: and magic right after this quick break. Welcome back to 360 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 1: math and Magic. Let's hear more from my conversation with 361 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: Jan Brandt. You go to California. You were CEO of 362 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: a direct marketing agency with clients and included Greenpeace, Ted Kennedy, 363 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: the California Democratic Party. You had your own company for 364 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 1: four years in the mid eighties and Mountain View, California, 365 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 1: and you helped start Paring magazine, and then you moved 366 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 1: back East and finally in ninete you were hired at 367 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: senior VP at A Well. That was about two years 368 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: before I got there on the board in three years 369 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: before I joined the management. Can you paint the picture 370 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: of a O Well in n It was really the 371 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: wild West. It was a lot of really energetic, smart 372 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: people we used to call a building and flying it 373 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: at the same time, and many of them not without 374 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: a lot of experience and with not a lot of 375 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 1: adult supervision. I used to look at myself as someone 376 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:42,239 Speaker 1: who was almost a transitional figure in the company in 377 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: that I had worked in both small and large companies, 378 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: and I thought I knew how to take from both 379 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: models and try to make things work. I was able 380 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: to traverse the growth, I think a little bit better 381 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 1: than other people in those early days, trying to bring 382 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:04,719 Speaker 1: some sense of process, ways of trying to mentor people 383 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 1: and bring them along when they had been doing it 384 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: on their own for a while. That was being brought 385 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: in to make the company bigger, and there are a 386 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: lot of things that really had to change in order 387 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: to do that. We had one person in the HR department, 388 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: and that was tragic. If you had a new hire 389 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: coming in at night, you go into people's offices and 390 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: steal trash, baskets and pencils. It was. It was really crazy. 391 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: I had a lot of latitude though. I remember we 392 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,479 Speaker 1: had an I T department. If my computer broke, they 393 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: couldn't get it fixed right away. I didn't really care. 394 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,959 Speaker 1: I would just send my assistant and I'd say, you know, 395 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 1: go to the computer store and get me a computer 396 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: and we'll figure this out later. So it's not exactly 397 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 1: the way things were supposed to happen, but as they say, now, 398 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: you had to break a lot of glass. So let's 399 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: advance a little bit. Some people don't remember are realized 400 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: that actually A O L, along with Prodigy and copy Serve, 401 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: began as proprietary computer networks. It was not the Internet. 402 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: And as a matter of fact, even when I joined 403 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 1: the board in there's still discussion about whether the Internet 404 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 1: was friend or foe, and how much it should be 405 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: embraced or whether it should be embraced. Obviously, a will 406 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: jumped in with both feet, but product and copy serve didn't. 407 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: And our big mission was to make the Internet as 408 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: important to consumers as their telephones and TVs. It seems 409 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: like a rather quaint goal looking back on it. And 410 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: in that time Microsoft offered consumers but I think it 411 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: was three dollars to switch to MSN from A O L. 412 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: Other I s p s were free. We were charging 413 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: over twenty dollars a month. There was a new threat 414 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: almost every day. I don't know about you, but I 415 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: sort of didn't want to wake up in the morning 416 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: to find out what was lurking there that morning. How 417 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: did you keep your bearings through all that? And that 418 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 1: such rapid change, such fear competition, and companies with much 419 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: bigger balance sheets than we had coming after us every day. 420 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: We had such enormous energy, we had such maniacal focus. 421 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: It had to have it to be around me. I 422 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: became known in the early days as the Queen of No. 423 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: What that meant was, no, we're not working on that, No, 424 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: we're not working on that. Either this is what we're 425 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: working on, and keeping people really, really, really focused. I've 426 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: never seen a company and a group of people, especially 427 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: in those earlier days, who really were trying their best 428 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: to all ruin the same direction. We all swim in 429 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: the same direction. Whatever that's saying is. There wasn't really 430 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: a big focus on me, me, me, you know, what's 431 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: my next job? Was my next salary, what's my next raise? 432 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: How much stock options my getting? There wasn't a lot 433 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 1: of focus on that because we were so energized by 434 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: what we were doing. And what I can see and 435 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: I have seen over and over and over again in 436 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: larger companies, is that there becomes a sense of entitlement, 437 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 1: there becomes a feeling of alienation, of not really being 438 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: part of a bigger mission. We were on a mission. 439 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: Of course, the stock options and the money and all 440 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,199 Speaker 1: of that helped, but we were on a mission. It 441 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: wasn't just a job for most of us. We were 442 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: also incredibly nimble. The amount of nimbleness, the fact that 443 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: the buck stopped here and that I could see something 444 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: going on in a company threatening us, and I could 445 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 1: go boom, you know, get this done, do this. I 446 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: didn't have to go through a lot of channels and committees. 447 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: People didn't get in my way. No, they didn't get 448 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: in your way. I can attest to that. Yet everyone 449 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: was scared to death to cross you. I would say 450 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: in a meeting, step beside, or I'm going to run 451 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: over you. It really allowed for an enormous amount of nimbleness. 452 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: It also gave me the freedom to make mistakes and 453 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: correct for them. And you can't have an environment as 454 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: many larger companies have in which you're judged by how 455 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: many mistakes you make. If you don't make mistakes, you're 456 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: really not gonna get anywhere big. You're gonna do everything incrementally. 457 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: My great mentor, Steve Ross, who built Warner Communications and 458 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: Time Warner, used to tell me, Bob, you'll never be 459 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: fired here from making a mistake. Here, you'll be fired 460 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: for not making a mistake. Because you're not making mistakes, 461 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: tells me and not trying anything new. And that's your 462 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: life blood, right. I never fired anyone making mistake. Make 463 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: the same mistake, you know, two or three times, and 464 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: you you know you're gonna be on thin ice. You 465 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 1: need to hire people smarter than you and be confident 466 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: My feeling has always been you want my job, come 467 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: get it, come earn it. I have only benefited throughout 468 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: my life in hiring the smartest people that I could 469 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: convince it to working with me. So let's jump a 470 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: little bit. I want to jump to the big crisis 471 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: we have. Actually, the day I joined in management off 472 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: the board in nine to run the A wall service, 473 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: theef case and the company announced unlimited pricing, and almost 474 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: immediately we had a crisis. Too much demand, not enough supply, 475 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: Consumers are getting busy, signals couldn't get online. We were 476 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: called America Offline. It was certainly the biggest business crisis 477 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: of my career, other than maybe COVID. Right now, can 478 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: you take us back to that time and what did 479 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: you learn from it? My first feeling was they love us, 480 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,360 Speaker 1: they really love us, and that faded, of course, as 481 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: we dealt with the crisis. I think that we expected 482 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: some lips. There was no presidents for we were just 483 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 1: all been wanting as fast as we could. A O 484 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: well was really the best example probably over the last 485 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,120 Speaker 1: twenty years of the Walled Garden. Despite lots of pressure, 486 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: we did not interot with other services deliberately and strategically, 487 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: if you wanted to communicate with someone on All, you 488 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: had to join ALL. Therefore, the more people in a well, 489 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: the more people joined. It was sort of the perfect example, 490 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: and you were a great defender of it. You could 491 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: smell people trying to sneak around the wall or breach 492 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: the wall. After my time at ALL and yours, someone 493 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: opened up the walled garden. Facebook is probably the best 494 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: example of the New world garden. You think they appreciate 495 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: that lesson about a O L. I think they go 496 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: to great lanes to keep you on their service. When 497 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: I look at Facebook, I see AOL all over. We 498 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 1: had a lot of the services that they had. We 499 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 1: were probably early in introducing some of them. We did 500 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: have these pages where you can collect your friends, your family. 501 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: It was really you know, Facebook point five, not even 502 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: Facebook one point oh well certainly got derailed with the 503 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: All Time Warner merger, and probably if All had stated 504 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: an independent company would have been the future of all. Yes, 505 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: you point out many of the service developer actually being 506 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: worked on at the time. There are many many services 507 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: that I'll send a text or an email to say 508 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: we did that, but we were early and it was 509 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: a different time. So let me jump a little bit. 510 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: As we began to come towards the end, If you 511 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: could give your twenty one year old self some advice, 512 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: what would it be? Wow? Someone gave me advice when 513 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: I was about twenty one years old. He was a 514 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: market He was my boss at my first company when 515 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: I moved over to the marketing department, and he said 516 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: to me, the problem with you is that you want 517 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: to be something. You need to want to do something. 518 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: I didn't quite get what he was saying at that point, 519 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: but I did a few years later and realized that 520 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: really my passion was marketing. My passion was connecting with 521 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: people in that way, and it was what led me, frankly, 522 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,239 Speaker 1: to end up at a o L as opposed to 523 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: I was interviewing other companies at that time, companies that 524 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: people had actually heard of back then it was American Airlines, 525 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: or I was interviewing your time ach at the time. 526 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: You know. I went to a well because I felt 527 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: that it was the best chance for me to spread 528 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: my wings and to do what I was really passionate about. 529 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: And I was passionate about marketing, and so I think 530 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: that well, I couldn't have given myself that advice someone 531 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: else did give it to me. Let's wind up today. 532 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: We always end math and magic by looking at those 533 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: two sides of marketing, the analytics math and the creative 534 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: the magic. When you look back on all you've seen, 535 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: who would you give the shout out to is the 536 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: greatest math person in the marketing equation, in the brand 537 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: of marketing that I was most involved in. You couldn't 538 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: really separate the two. But it really couldn't have been 539 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: a direct market or without being able to do both 540 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: of those things. One of the reasons I think I 541 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: was so successful is because I actually am very good 542 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: at both sides. Yes you were, Let me jump to 543 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: the other side. Then tell me who's the best magician. 544 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: Every Bill Jamie, who was a copywriter, a great renown. 545 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: Anyone from my error or before or even a little 546 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: bit after, would have known him. He was prolific, did 547 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: a lot of work in publishing, and he brought magic 548 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: to paper. He was very expensive to use, and getting 549 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: him to work on one of your projects you had 550 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: a campaign for it. So Jan this has been great 551 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,239 Speaker 1: A O. L had to be the biggest success of 552 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: my career and certainly one of the most exciting rides. 553 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: Doing it you was inspiring. I loved being in the 554 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: foxhole with you. I loved all the stories we have together. 555 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: I have to thank you for all those great times, 556 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: great memories, and thanks for sharing some just a little 557 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: bit of your brilliance with us today. Thanks well, thank you. 558 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: Here are a few things I picked up in my 559 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: conversation with Jam. One. Be willing to make mistakes, as 560 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: Jan says, if you don't make mistakes, you're not gonna 561 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: get anywhere big. To keep it simple when introducing a 562 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: new product like a o L. Consumers value simplicity, and 563 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: ease of use O were just about anything else. Three. 564 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: Cost is relative, as Jan often had to explain, her 565 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: marketing efforts cost the company a lot of money, but 566 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: her results were spectacular and worth it for. To stay focused, 567 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: you sometimes have to say no. In the early days 568 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: of a o L, Jan harnessed the tremendous energy of 569 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: the company and kept everyone focused on achieving the core 570 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: mission by not allowing her team to work on things 571 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: that didn't move them all in the same direction. Thanks 572 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: for listening. I'm Bob Pittman. That's it for today's episode. 573 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for Listening to Math and Magic, a 574 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. This show is hosted by 575 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sue Schillinger for booking and 576 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no small feat. Nikki 577 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: Eatre for pulling research, Bill Plax and Michael Asar for 578 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: their acording helped our editor Ryan Murdoch, and of course 579 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: Gaile Raoul, Eric Angel, Noel Mango and everyone who helped 580 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: bring this show to your ears. Until next time, m 581 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: HM