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Speaker 1: Oh no, it's not Santa, it's Nancy Grace. Are you

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Speaker 1: trying to find the perfect gift for a parent or

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Speaker 1: an expecting parent, Please do not give them another onesie.

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Speaker 1: Don't do it, and not another plastic toy that's going

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Speaker 1: to end up in the trash being or the garage

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Speaker 1: or sent to Goodwill this holiday season. Give them something

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Speaker 1: that really matters, and what matters more than protecting their child.

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Speaker 1: I sat down with the smartest people in the world

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Speaker 1: that I know when it comes to child safety, finding

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Speaker 1: missing children and fighting back against predators, and what I

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Speaker 1: learned is so critical and the information so powerful and important.

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Speaker 1: I want you to have it. I want them as

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Speaker 1: parents to have it. Go to crimestops here dot com

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Speaker 1: for a five part series with action information that you

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Speaker 1: can use to change your life and protect your child.

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Speaker 1: Because I have done it myself based on what they

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Speaker 1: have told me. Give that as a gift, not another onesie.

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Speaker 1: Please find out how to protect your child out and

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Speaker 1: about at the mall, at the store, at the grocery store,

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Speaker 1: in parking lots, in parking decks, at your home, in

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Speaker 1: your neighborhood. Find out about protection regarding babysitters nanny's daycare,

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Speaker 1: even protection online. It's the very best gift you can

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Speaker 1: give any parent. Go to crimestops here dot com and

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Speaker 1: join the Justice Nation crime stops here dot com. God

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Speaker 1: willing crime stories with Nancy Grace. There's your family party

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Speaker 1: being held at the residence on No Crest, attended by

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Speaker 1: about twenty five people. Do He was dressed in a

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Speaker 1: Santa suit and brought with him a homemade device BIS

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Speaker 1: basically consisted of two tanks, one which contain either oxygen

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Speaker 1: to CEO two and the other, smaller tank appeared to

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Speaker 1: contain racy. He walked up to the door. Once he

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Speaker 1: knocked on the door, ring the doorbell and gained entrance.

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Speaker 1: He immediately was confronted with an eight year old child

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Speaker 1: who thought Santa Claus had come to the house. He

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Speaker 1: shot her at once in the face and then proceeded

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Speaker 1: inside the residence. What is he wearing? Okay, let me

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Speaker 1: know what's wearing. The Santa Claus suit that he was

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Speaker 1: wearing did melt onto his body? What is it about

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Speaker 1: the holidays, specifically Christmas that can engender so much love

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Speaker 1: and goodwill? And then on the other hand, at the

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Speaker 1: other end of the spectrum, generates so much hate and

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Speaker 1: animosity and tension. I'm talking specifically about out holidays gone bad.

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Speaker 1: Let's just start with a man, a husband, a father

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Speaker 1: who ends up making a homemade flame thrower, goes to

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Speaker 1: the home and goes berserk. And let me remind everybody,

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Speaker 1: this guy, Bruce Pardo, as I recall, was an aeronautical engineer.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to this nine one one call. Hello, ho, hey,

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Speaker 1: holy Wally in your house? Down on the Google at

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Speaker 1: your house? What do you think you name it? Okay?

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Speaker 1: And who do you say? Who is he to you?

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Speaker 1: Who he was? Play? Probably like you there? So now, okay,

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Speaker 1: come on one second, Okay, I don't know who else

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Speaker 1: is why? I know I know man on the phone

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Speaker 1: with me, Okay, whole family there spreading people do any fighting?

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Speaker 1: I know? I know? Okay, off, they're trying to get

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Speaker 1: to you, guys. Okay. He came in through the entrance

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Speaker 1: to the door and there's a Santa clausure and I

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Speaker 1: didn't see from when he shot. I heard the shot

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Speaker 1: that they were like poppers and I wasn't sure what

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Speaker 1: it was. So we all everyone started panicking and running,

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Speaker 1: so we all drove under the tenue and some of

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Speaker 1: usselve with some of us. I don't know who my

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Speaker 1: mom pausing on the man the fire there. Okay, where

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Speaker 1: are you wearing? Please? What is he wearing? What is

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Speaker 1: she wearing? Changes Santa Claus clothes? Okay, let me know

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Speaker 1: what he's wearing, black clothes. I'm racking on neighbor's storts.

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Speaker 1: The man he dresses as Santa, slaughters nine people at

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Speaker 1: a Christmas party using what else I mean, of course,

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Speaker 1: a homemade flamethrower as they quote Christmas present, to set

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Speaker 1: his house on fire. I want to go out to

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Speaker 1: John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter. This guy was no idiot.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he is an engineer that creates a homemade

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Speaker 1: flamethrower and then the qu de gras wraps it in

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Speaker 1: Christmas wrap and puts the bow on it to get

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Speaker 1: it into the home. He shows up unannounced, John, what

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Speaker 1: exactly happened? Well, I'd love to begin with a love story,

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Speaker 1: and that's of Joseph and Alicia Ortega. They had been

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Speaker 1: married for fifty two years, had created a huge family

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Speaker 1: that just became bigger and bigger with each passing year.

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Speaker 1: Joe and Alicia love nothing more than each Christmas Eve

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Speaker 1: to gather their entire family with them in Covina, California,

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Speaker 1: a suburb of Los Angeles. The children and their families

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Speaker 1: would begin arriving early in the day. The celebration would

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Speaker 1: go well into the night, with the house packed to

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Speaker 1: the gills with relatives. Later in the evening, the adults

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Speaker 1: would play a lively game of poker while the children played.

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Speaker 1: Now keep this scene in your head. For many years

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Speaker 1: a neighbor would dress as Santa, ring the doorbell and

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Speaker 1: surprise the children with a bunch of presents. So on

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Speaker 1: December twenty fourth, all seemed quite normal when the doorbell

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Speaker 1: rang around eleven thirty PM and one of the younger grandchildren,

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Speaker 1: an eight year old girl, answered the door to see

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Speaker 1: Santa standing there. As the family was about to discover though,

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Speaker 1: this was anything but a storybook visit from Saint Nick.

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Speaker 1: Just moments after the door opened, the man dressed as

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Speaker 1: Santa pulls out two handguns and immediately shoots the little girl.

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Speaker 1: He then steps over first, she's the eight year old girl, yes,

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Speaker 1: right right? As he enters the house. He then steps

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Speaker 1: over her enters the house. He moves back and forth

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Speaker 1: between shooting and discriminately and then shooting some family members

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Speaker 1: point blank, execution style. There are approximately twenty five or

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Speaker 1: so family members or extended or taga family and the

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Speaker 1: house that night, so there was mass chaos as sisters

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Speaker 1: and brothers, cousins, niece's nephews run in all directions trying

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Speaker 1: to get away from the shooter. In the midst of

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Speaker 1: all this, the shooter stops. He stops firing and walks

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Speaker 1: over to this large wrapped present that he has rolled

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Speaker 1: in with him under that festive paper, and the box is,

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, a homemade flamethrower. He begins spraying what

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Speaker 1: is discovered to be racing fuel, high octane fuel around

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Speaker 1: the house. There's a huge explosion and the house is

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Speaker 1: quickly engulfed in flames. The last of the living family

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Speaker 1: members are seen jumping out of the windows to escape

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Speaker 1: the blaze. Guys, Amazingly, this flamethrower is actually full of

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Speaker 1: high octane car racing fuel and it's spewed around the

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Speaker 1: home to catch the home on fire. Okay with me

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Speaker 1: our special guest Joe Scott Morgan death investigator, Cheryl McCullum,

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Speaker 1: cold case investigator and the director of the Cold Case Institute,

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories reporter John Limley and joining us today doctor

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Speaker 1: Carol Lieberman, psychiatrist, radio and TV talk show personality, best

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Speaker 1: selling author. She's a keynote speaker and expert witness on

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Speaker 1: many subjects, Doctor Carol Lieberman, it is just such a

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Speaker 1: thrill to have you with us. Before I go any

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Speaker 1: further with the flamethrower, can I ask you something, Doctor Lieberman?

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Speaker 1: No offense, John Allen and Joe Scott? What is wrong

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Speaker 1: with men? Really? I mean, the thought of going and

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Speaker 1: creating a homemade flamethrower and wrapping it in Christmas wrap

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Speaker 1: in a bow. I just that would never have dawned

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Speaker 1: on me. I mean, I guess moms are too busy

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Speaker 1: raising children and running around town as a chauffeur and working. Right,

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Speaker 1: who has time to make a flame thrower? That's right? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know it's actually a metaphor for just how much

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Speaker 1: rage Bruce Parnow had towards his wife. They had just

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Speaker 1: divorced a week before, and um, you know, which is

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Speaker 1: so typical in all of these holiday killings. Uh, there

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Speaker 1: is so much rage, so much family resentment that um,

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Speaker 1: you know this is this was his way of really

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Speaker 1: showing her just how burned up he was. I mean,

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Speaker 1: but to go to so much effort to create a

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Speaker 1: homemade flame, a thrower, I don't even know what that

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Speaker 1: would look like. I'm imagining, imagining some sort of scepteral

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Speaker 1: looking thing. I don't even know what that would be. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm not really sure either exactly what it would look like.

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Speaker 1: But you know this, he was so angry. You know,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned that she had children. During their divorce, the

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Speaker 1: judge decided that he was going to pay for her

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Speaker 1: children and also pay her some money as well, And

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Speaker 1: this was when he finally decided that he was resentful

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Speaker 1: towards her during the marriage for having to pay for

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Speaker 1: her children, and then when they got divorced and the

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Speaker 1: judge said that he still had to pay for them,

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Speaker 1: that was too much. Bruce Pardo actually suffered third degree

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Speaker 1: burns on both arms, and it appears at Santa Claus

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Speaker 1: suit he was wearing melted onto his body. The dichotomy

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Speaker 1: of coming as Father Christmas say is nothing but loving

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Speaker 1: and full of good, cheer and merriment. The dichotomy doctor

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Speaker 1: Carol Lieberman of him dressing as Santa with murder on

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Speaker 1: his mind, what does that mean? Where does from? Where

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Speaker 1: does that spring? That is a particular betrayal. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's like clowns who kill We societe a society love Santa,

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Speaker 1: love clowns. Most people love clowns, and so for someone

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Speaker 1: dressed in a suit, like in a Santa suit, it

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Speaker 1: isn't especially I mean, yes, he was doing it so

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Speaker 1: that he could get into the house and so on,

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Speaker 1: but also I think there was a metaphor he was

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Speaker 1: trying to say that he didn't want to be Santa

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Speaker 1: perpetually for her and her children. He didn't want to

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Speaker 1: keep playing Santa in the sense of keep supporting them.

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Speaker 1: You know what's interesting about this is John Lemway. Isn't

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Speaker 1: it true that he had no criminal record whatsoever before this?

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Speaker 1: That is indeed the case which made it all the

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Speaker 1: more impossible for them to figure out exactly what was

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Speaker 1: going on. Police speculate that the motive of the attack,

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Speaker 1: as we hinted, was related to not only the divorce,

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Speaker 1: but a spade of problems that Bruce Pardot had encountered

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Speaker 1: over the months prior. As we've said, his wife of

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Speaker 1: one year, Sylvia, had settled for divorce just one week

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Speaker 1: before this incident. Bruce had been fired from his job

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Speaker 1: as an electrical engineer just in July as well. The

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Speaker 1: couple had wed, but soon grew apart. After their marriage,

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Speaker 1: mister Pardot refused to open a joint account with his wife.

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Speaker 1: He also expected his wife to take care of their

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Speaker 1: three children with her own finances. Weren't they his biological

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Speaker 1: children or now? Yes, However, there was another child that

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Speaker 1: they discover exists through a woman that he was with before.

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Speaker 1: And this is an interesting scenario here. Apparently this child

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Speaker 1: that he had with this woman earlier in his life,

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Speaker 1: he had been at home alone with the child. The

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Speaker 1: child had gotten out of its crib, entered the swimming

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Speaker 1: pool and almost died, did not, but was really left

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Speaker 1: in a vegetative state. Oh my goodness. So I want

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Speaker 1: you to hear what the police chief there in Covena

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Speaker 1: has to say. Again, this happened about eleven thirty pm

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Speaker 1: on Christmas Eve. There was a family party being held

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Speaker 1: at the residence on No Crest, attended by about twenty

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Speaker 1: five people. It appears that mister Pardo drove the location

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Speaker 1: and parked his car in the driveway one house east.

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Speaker 1: At the party, he was dressed in a Santa suit

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Speaker 1: and brought with him a homemade device which will release

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Speaker 1: pictures of that later for the press. Device basically consisted

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Speaker 1: of two tanks, one which contained either oxygen or CO

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Speaker 1: two and the other smaller tank appeared to contain racing fuel.

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Speaker 1: He was a homemade device that was basically built where

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Speaker 1: once he mixed those two items, it would turn into

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Speaker 1: a vapor or atomize, and he was able to deliver

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Speaker 1: that inside the residence, He walked up to the door.

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Speaker 1: Once he knocked on the door, rang the doorbell, and

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Speaker 1: gained entrance. He immediately was confronted with an eight year

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Speaker 1: old child who thought Santa Claus had come to the house.

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Speaker 1: He shot her once in the face and then proceeded

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Speaker 1: inside the residence. Mister Pardo was armed with four handguns

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Speaker 1: when he went into the residence. All four handguns have

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Speaker 1: been recovered and the best of our belief as of

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Speaker 1: right now, all guns were empty. As he went into

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Speaker 1: the house, he began shooting at the partygoers, again indiscriminately.

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Speaker 1: It appears that he did have some intended target, those

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Speaker 1: being the family members and immediate family of his ex wife.

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Speaker 1: Once the shooting stopped, it appeared that he then retrieved

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Speaker 1: the homemade device, activated that, and went through the house,

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Speaker 1: basically delivering that and releasing a gas vapor inside the house.

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Speaker 1: There's no indication that he ignited the vapor, but the

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Speaker 1: vapor was able to be ignited either by a pilot

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Speaker 1: light or if there was a candle inside the house.

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Speaker 1: Because obviously there was an explosion that occurred inside the house.

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Speaker 1: Mister Pardo was severely injured during that explosion. He suffered

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Speaker 1: third degree burns on both arms. It also appears that

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Speaker 1: the Santa Claus suit that he was wearing dead melt

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Speaker 1: onto his body. Imagine this same party goers running to

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Speaker 1: neighbor's homes to call police. One woman broke her ankle

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Speaker 1: leaping to safety from one of the home's bedroom windows.

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Speaker 1: A boy flees the home screaming into the street. They're

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Speaker 1: shooting my family, shooting my family, as the home goes

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Speaker 1: up in flames. It just I don't understand why something

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Speaker 1: about the Holidays set off so much hatred. Joe Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: How can you process a scene like that. It's a nightmare, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: because this is what we refer to as a stratified scene,

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Speaker 1: which means you've got layer if you'll imagine a big

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Speaker 1: layer cake, You've got layer upon layer upon evidence. Not

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Speaker 1: only do you have things like you know, this guy

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Speaker 1: when he walked in was firing a nine millimeter pistol.

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Speaker 1: There were a couple of weapons involved, so the nature

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Speaker 1: of these rounds there is going to be very unique

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Speaker 1: to each weapon. You've got people that are trampling over

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Speaker 1: one another. And then when you put it on top

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Speaker 1: of everything, the explosion that took place as a result

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Speaker 1: of this high octane fuel that ignited, it's it's mass

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Speaker 1: chaos in this environment. And for an investigator, when you

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Speaker 1: walk onto a scene like this, it gives you pause.

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Speaker 1: Your mind begins to swirl. So when you're handling something

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Speaker 1: like this, you have to be very methodical, take very

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Speaker 1: careful steps one by one, and work your way through

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Speaker 1: it very very slowly. I mean, police find the bodies

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Speaker 1: badly burn of hate. Victims who were just gathered at

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Speaker 1: a family gathering for Christmas, I say, entered the ruins.

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Speaker 1: After this fire was finally put out, officers met with

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Speaker 1: a scene that was indescribable, said police Chief Kim Rainey.

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Speaker 1: The ninth body wasn't even discovered until the next day, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: if I could rampage, if I can interject one more

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Speaker 1: thing about the nature of this fire. You know, when

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Speaker 1: most people people into vernacular, they'll say things like, well,

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Speaker 1: they burn to death. Most people don't burn to death

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Speaker 1: in fires. Most people die of smoke inhalation. As we

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Speaker 1: all well know how in this particular case, when you've

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Speaker 1: got high octane fuel in a very closed environment, what

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Speaker 1: will happen is the people that are alive, that have

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Speaker 1: not succumbed to gunshot wounds will inhalate what's for two,

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Speaker 1: a superheated gas. And so this is very horrible that

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Speaker 1: the interlining of the throat and the lungs will just

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Speaker 1: automatically just kind of singe, and it's a very very

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Speaker 1: painful way to die. So not only are you inhalating

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Speaker 1: the debris that's being consumed, you're also innhilating the superheated gas,

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Speaker 1: which in and of itself is a whole different layer

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Speaker 1: of terror on top of all the rest of it.

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Speaker 1: You know, what's so just another disturbing layer. To doctor

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Speaker 1: Carroll Lieberman for those of you just joining us, a

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Speaker 1: rampage goes down just before Christmas, a whole family is

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Speaker 1: wiped out more than the family. People were quoted as

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Speaker 1: saying doctor Carroll Lieberman that this guy Pardo was quote

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Speaker 1: the nicest value. Imagine, always a pleasure to talk to,

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Speaker 1: always a big smile, Always work the as usher every

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Speaker 1: Sunday evening for the past six years, working the five

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Speaker 1: thirty mass, the children's Mass. How can someone so loving

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Speaker 1: and so generous and kind suddenly turn into a mass murderer. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you know, we often hear that with when someone's when

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Speaker 1: there's some big crime in the neighbors all say, oh,

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Speaker 1: he was such a nice guy. I know. Um, well,

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Speaker 1: you know there's no relationship though that is as intimate

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Speaker 1: as he would have had with his wife. And this spurning,

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Speaker 1: you know, her moving out with the kids, and um,

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Speaker 1: the the disappointment of the relationship ending the way it

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Speaker 1: did and so on, that brings up a lot of

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Speaker 1: rage and connected with the holidays. I mean, you know

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Speaker 1: when our reaction into the holidays, I mean, of course

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Speaker 1: you've heard of holiday blues and so on. You know,

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Speaker 1: how we relate to the holidays has to do so

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Speaker 1: much with how we were as children. What happened during

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Speaker 1: the holidays when we were children, and we bring that

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Speaker 1: the sense of whether we were whether we felt deprived

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Speaker 1: during the holidays, excluded like he was excluded from this party.

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Speaker 1: And there are different things in the hot buttons that

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Speaker 1: get triggered, particularly during the holiday. Hi, Nancy Grace here,

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Speaker 1: Have you ever Googled yourself, your neighbors, somebody at work

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Speaker 1: a crush? Fifty seven percent of Americans admit keeping an

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Speaker 1: eye on their own online reputation. Forty six admit to

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Speaker 1: using the Internet to look up somebody from their past.

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Speaker 1: But Google and Facebook the tip of the iceberg when

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Speaker 1: it comes to finding personal information. There's an innovative new

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Speaker 1: website called truth Finder. It's now revealing the full scoop

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00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,479
Speaker 1: on millions of Americans. Truth Finder can search true hundreds

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Speaker 1: of millions of public records in a matter of minutes.

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Speaker 1: Truthfinder members can literally begin searching in seconds for sensitive

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Speaker 1: data like criminal traffic arrest records. Before you bring someone

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Speaker 1: new into your life and around the people you care

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Speaker 1: for your children, consider using Truthfinder. What you find may

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Speaker 1: astound you. Go to truthfinder dot com forward slash Nancy

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Speaker 1: right away to start searching truthfinder dot com forward slash

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Speaker 1: Nancy Truthfinder dot com forward slash Nancy Find the Truth

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. At a time when we

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Speaker 1: celebrate everything good in the world, how that could somehow

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Speaker 1: be twisted and contorted into something so evil. We now

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Speaker 1: travel to Fort Lauderdale where a guy, a dad, Paul Mary,

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Speaker 1: has dinner, a wonderful holiday dinner, sing songs around the piano,

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Speaker 1: Christmas songs, and then suddenly oh and hymns out of

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Speaker 1: the church hymnal and then suddenly unloads. It all ends

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Speaker 1: in a massacre where he executes an entire family. John

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Speaker 1: Lemley another holiday, a festive, peaceful, loving get together a

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Speaker 1: family and friends, goes completely arrived. What happens There were

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Speaker 1: no arguments, warnings, or even red flags before he started

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Speaker 1: the rampage. Marriage shot his seventy nine year old aunt

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Speaker 1: to death, killed his twin sisters, one of whom was pregnant.

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Speaker 1: It's not eight months pregnant exactly, you know, a month

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Speaker 1: or so away from delivering. It's not clear exactly who

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Speaker 1: was shot when, but the bloodbath could have been much

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Speaker 1: worse with sixteen family members present. Marriage thirty five at

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Speaker 1: the time, also pointed the gun at his uncle, but

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Speaker 1: it twice would not fire at one point he turned

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Speaker 1: and started to walk away and said, I have been

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Speaker 1: waiting for twenty years to do this. Oh my stars,

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Speaker 1: waiting for twenty years to do this, you know, to

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Speaker 1: doctor Carroll Lieberman, psychiatrist, radio and TV talk show host, personality,

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Speaker 1: a best selling author, speaker. You know, doctor Carroll Lieberman,

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Speaker 1: you have seen so much as an expert. I still

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Speaker 1: don't understand how Holidays, when we're celebrating everything good in

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Speaker 1: the world, as the Prince of comes to our world,

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Speaker 1: how it could all be so twisted and horrible. And

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Speaker 1: I guess my specific question right now is no warning flags,

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Speaker 1: no mental illness history, no episodes of uncontrolled anger. Nothing. Well,

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Speaker 1: actually he did. He was going to his attorneys were

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Speaker 1: going to try to do an insanity defense, and that's

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Speaker 1: how he got to strike a place. I mean, well,

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Speaker 1: and then there's a story about how he went to

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Speaker 1: see a doctor, although it's not clear what doctor he

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Speaker 1: you know, whether it was a psychiatrist, but the idea

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Speaker 1: that he said, he's been waiting twenty years to do this.

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Speaker 1: So he's thirty five years old. That means when he

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Speaker 1: was fifth since the time he was fifteen, he has

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Speaker 1: had all this resentment jealousy of his twin sisters who

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Speaker 1: were younger, so they replaced him in the family. You know,

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Speaker 1: the typical sibling rivalry. Well it's not so typical when

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Speaker 1: he shoots them all. But he was jealous of them,

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Speaker 1: and he one of the people that he killed was

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Speaker 1: the six year old little girl who was performing. She

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Speaker 1: was singing. She was supposed to be in the Nutcracker,

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Speaker 1: and so she performed in front of all the relatives.

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Speaker 1: So what it had to do with is how he

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Speaker 1: was not getting enough attention. He was feeling like the

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Speaker 1: family wasn't paying enough attention to him, and since he

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Speaker 1: was fifteen, he felt that way. And hey, he had

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Speaker 1: this resentment stored up for twenty years and finally, you know,

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Speaker 1: he let loose and he went to this. There were

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Speaker 1: there were some warning signs in the sense that his

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Speaker 1: sister and he had his sister took out a restraining

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Speaker 1: order but then dropped that. So, you know, this is

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Speaker 1: such a good example of a family not paying enough attention. Well,

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Speaker 1: like he was complaining about not paying enough attention to

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Speaker 1: the psychological issues that were plaguing him. Well up until

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Speaker 1: this moment in time, there was no indication he had

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Speaker 1: any mental I there. He has not been treated nothing.

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Speaker 1: He had had disagreements with one relative and they took

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Speaker 1: out a tro and then dropped it almost immediately. What's

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Speaker 1: shocking to me, the fact, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic Expert,

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Speaker 1: Professor Forensics at Jacksonville State University, is that these victims

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Speaker 1: were totally taken by surprise. I mean they were literally

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Speaker 1: standing around the piano. One of the daughters, They've just

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Speaker 1: had this huge dinner, a holiday dinner, and they were

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Speaker 1: all around. They were looking at note cards. His daughter,

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Speaker 1: Michela had written about how thankful she was for her

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Speaker 1: family and strung them on a clothes line, and she

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Speaker 1: suddenly started singing. It was kind of an impromptu dress rehearsal.

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Speaker 1: Was performing The Nutcracker the very next day. She was

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Speaker 1: daughter Michaela, and in the middle of all this marriage

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Speaker 1: shows up and of course they let him in and

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Speaker 1: he has the dinner. He's standing around the piano. Everything

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Speaker 1: seems to be fine, and then out of the blue,

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Speaker 1: he pulls out a gun and methodically targets victims, shooting

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Speaker 1: his twin sisters, Carla, a real estate agent, and Lisa,

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Speaker 1: who was eight months pregnant. Like the daughter Michela. Both

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Speaker 1: of them loved to sing. They did this every year

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Speaker 1: at Christmas and Thanksgiving. He shoots his aunt Romande, his

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Speaker 1: brother in law Patrick, another man who happened to be

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Speaker 1: there at Clifford. That wasn't all. That wasn't all. He

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Speaker 1: goes into a baby's room. He sees her there and

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Speaker 1: murders her. Beside the baby's bed was a little novel

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Speaker 1: that she had been writing about a squirrel, where of

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Speaker 1: course the squirrel can talk and sing, and she was

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Speaker 1: actually writing a book. She would have turned seven a

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Speaker 1: few days later. Joe Scott, how do you process a

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Speaker 1: scene like that? It's hard to get past it, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: because as a as an investigator, you want to look

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Speaker 1: at the physical evidence and assess what you see before

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Speaker 1: you relative to the scientific value. But one of the

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Speaker 1: problems that you encounter is that when you do this,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to wax philosophical for a moment, is

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Speaker 1: that you drag your own humanity in there with you.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes it's very, very difficult to view these things

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Speaker 1: and not be put off emotionally by what you're seeing.

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Speaker 1: And it's a surreal event many times because and I

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Speaker 1: like in this when I'm teaching my classes, I tell

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Speaker 1: I tell my students many times, listen, you're there to

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Speaker 1: view the abnormal in the context of the normal. And

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Speaker 1: what's more, what's more normal? Well, what's more peaceful? A

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Speaker 1: better word than to have family all gathered around during

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Speaker 1: the holiday season. You're singing around the piano, people are

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Speaker 1: celebrating live. It's joyful, it's festive, and then all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, carnage visits. It's it's pure hell on earth.

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Speaker 1: And you're having to contextualize all this stuff as an

427
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: investigator and process it and try to figure out what

428
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: happened to these individuals. And then you begin to kind

429
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: of interweave their stories about how much they suffered in

430
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: these events, and it's hard, and a lot of people,

431
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: you know, they sit back and they look at investigators

432
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: and police officers to say, I don't understand why you're

433
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: so jaded. I don't understand why you have this twisted

434
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: view of the world. And it is because of the

435
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: fact that we always see in three D living color

436
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: before us the abnormal in the context of the normal. Well,

437
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: I don't know so much that it's jaded as that

438
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: you at some point it's to get through it. You

439
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: have to numb yourself or you just can't keep going.

440
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: I mean when I read, when I've studied this case

441
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: for this moment, I mean, there's this six year old

442
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: little girl who the dad says, she's quote just our life.

443
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: I don't know how we're ever going to recover. And

444
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: you look at them. There's an eight months pregnant mom.

445
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember at when I was six months.

446
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: You know, I gave birth so prematurely. I never made

447
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: it to eight months, but hardly walk just it was

448
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,959
Speaker 1: so difficult. And here's this mom eight months pregnant, dead,

449
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: her twin sister dead. And then to even suggest John

450
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: Lemley Crime Stories investigated a reporter that he was insane.

451
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: It doesn't work because he has the wherewithal to then

452
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: hop in his car and go on the run. He

453
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 1: goes straight out after gunning down a whole family, he

454
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: jumps into his Royal blue Toyota camera and heads off.

455
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: In fact, the police immediately alert Michigan authorities because they

456
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: think he was headed there. I mean, he knew exactly

457
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: what he was doing. Because he goes on the run.

458
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: There had to be a plan in place after the

459
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: mass murder. Marriage was as you say, on the lamb

460
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: for weeks until the tip was called in after an

461
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: episode of America's Most Wanted highlighted this murder case. What

462
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: is it about the holidays, specifically Christmas holidays, the whole

463
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: season starting at Thanksgiving that brings out seemingly the very

464
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: worst in human nature. I'm thinking about right now, a guy,

465
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: a twenty eight year old guy. He has everything in

466
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: the world to be thankful for. Its name is Joel

467
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: Michael Guy Junior, and his parents Joel Michael Guy Senior

468
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: and mom Lisa have been supporting him his whole life.

469
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: He's been in school, I think now for ten years.

470
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: I'm talking about college. College. He was not working, living

471
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: off his parents. He's been in college now ten years,

472
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: and he comes home and asks for more money. The

473
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: parents are trying to retire and they have to break

474
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: it to him over holiday meal. Son, You're gonna have

475
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: to make it on. You're gonna have to get a job. Son. Finally,

476
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: you've been in school ten years to get a four

477
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,959
Speaker 1: year degree. It's over. We're selling the house. Where are

478
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: we tiring? We're not gonna work anymore? And what does

479
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: he do? John Limley. I just I hate the ending

480
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: of this story. What happens John, The family is gathering

481
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: for a holiday feast at this beautiful, tiny, little two

482
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: story home that's on a corner lot in the Golden

483
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: Lane neighborhood of Knoxville, Tennessee. Now it was all ready

484
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: to be the family's last holiday together in that particular house.

485
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: I'm backing up. Did you say tiny because I'm looking

486
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: at it and it's a mansion. I'm looking right at it.

487
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: Did I hear you say tiny? Okay, all right, maybe

488
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 1: I should No, no, no, no no, just go ahead. I

489
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: mean this place is it looks like maybe the Italian

490
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: kind of like stucco. Oh, Jackie say she knows exactly

491
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: where it's. I mean it's gorgeous. Yeah, okay, not that

492
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: that means the crime can't happen, But what it does

493
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: mean is it's probably a very low crime area. Okay, Sorry,

494
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: I just had to make sure you knew this was

495
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: not a tiny home because I've been watching too much

496
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: HGTV and they do all discussions on the tiny home.

497
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 1: Right people put on the car and drive around the

498
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: country with them. Is one of them? All? Right? Go ahead?

499
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 1: Now this was already to be the family's last holiday

500
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 1: together in that house, because in two weeks Joel Duy

501
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: Senior and his wife Lisa were going to move into

502
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 1: his late mother's mountain house about ninety miles away. Family

503
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: members were already talking about getting together there for a

504
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 1: Christmas reunion. The guys said their goodbyes first to their

505
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: three daughters, who all live in Tennessee, and plan to

506
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: send off their son, Joel Michael Guy Junior, as we mentioned,

507
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: even living in Baton Rouge for nearly a decade, and

508
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: his parents were financially supporting him. Authorities say they had

509
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 1: planned to tell him that they were indeed cutting him off.

510
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: It's still unclear exactly what happened next, whether the guys

511
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: ever had a chance to even delivered their message. What

512
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: authorities do know is that the twenty eight year old

513
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: state in Tennessee another three days longer than he'd planned,

514
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 1: and by that Sunday afternoon, his parents' home had been

515
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: turned into what police say was a horrific and very

516
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: gruesome crime scene. During a welfare check that following Monday,

517
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: after Lisa Guy's employer told police that she did not

518
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: show up for work, authorities entered the home and discovered

519
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 1: a barking dog that was locked in an upstairs room,

520
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: and the remains of Joel's senior and Lisa scattered throughout

521
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: the house, their dismembered body parts resting in a homemade

522
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: acidic solution concocted. He was trying to erase all evidence

523
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 1: that the crimes even took place there. Whoa wait a minute,

524
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:55,280
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, Professor Forensics

525
00:35:55,280 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State University. What about this acidic solution? Drums

526
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: of it? Words like torture, stab, wounds, and dismemberment are

527
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 1: also used in this tale. And he was with his

528
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,879
Speaker 1: parents for an extended period of time, which is why

529
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: the police believe that prior to them dying, he very

530
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: well may have tortured them. A lot of anger involved

531
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: with this, and you know, after this feat of killing,

532
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: these intimates these people, and that's the way we commonly

533
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 1: refer to them if you're in an intimate relationship, not

534
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: referring to a sexual relationship, but just you know, a

535
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 1: familial relationship, very close paring and child after you go

536
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 1: through killing them up close and personal with an edged weapon.

537
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: Then before you even get to the acid, you have

538
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,280
Speaker 1: to dismember the bodies, and this is no easy feat,

539
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: particularly if you've never done it before. I've worked in

540
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: the morgue for many, many years, and I'll just leave

541
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: it at that. I know what it takes. And for

542
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: someone in this fancy home that has limited knowledge and

543
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: I would think limited specialty tools in order to facilitate this,

544
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: it'd be very difficult. Also if you don't use the

545
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: right combination of you know, what they're referring to is

546
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 1: not necessarily a pure acid solution, but something that was

547
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: kind of concocted. Always that makes me raised an eyebrow.

548
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 1: It's not going to work very effectively. And from what

549
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 1: I understand, he essentially left a scene and returned back

550
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: to Baton Rouge and you know where later, as John

551
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 1: had pointed out, you know, the police entered this house

552
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 1: of horrors, and I can't I can't imagine what it

553
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 1: would be like to be a young uniformed officer, which

554
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: more than likely it was, that entered this home just

555
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: to conduct a welfare check. And this is something that's

556
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: done on a regular basis, and you walk in this

557
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,760
Speaker 1: is the last thing you're expecting to see. To doctor

558
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: Carroll Lieberman, psychiatrist, radio TV talk shape host, bestselling author,

559
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: Doctor Carroll, please give us some guidance. This story has

560
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 1: again some of these same elements of these holiday massacres.

561
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: Money and then the idea that his parents were going

562
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: to be selling that home, perhaps his childhood home, or

563
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: at least perhaps to something that represented status and moving

564
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: away abandonment. So money, deprivation, abandonment. You know, all the

565
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 1: ingredients were there for him to finally express his rage.

566
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: For everyone listening today, I want to thank you for

567
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: being with us as always and through the years. It's

568
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: Christmas Eve, and while so many of us are gathering

569
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,399
Speaker 1: with family and celebrating the birth of Christ, so many

570
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:59,240
Speaker 1: others are suffering today as we head into this holy

571
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: holy time. I'm merry Christmas. Nancy Gray's Crime Story is

572
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: signing off. Goodbye Friend,