WEBVTT - A Guide for New Activists

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<v Speaker 1>Cool Zone Media.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, and welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast

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<v Speaker 2>about things falling apart and how we try to put

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<v Speaker 2>them back together again. I'm your guest host, Margaret Kiljoy,

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<v Speaker 2>and with me this week is one of your regular hosts.

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<v Speaker 2>Here higare Hello. This week is one of those putting

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<v Speaker 2>things back together episodes. The premise of this episode is simple.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's say you're newly radicalized. Maybe you were participant in

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<v Speaker 2>the occupations and now the school year is over, or

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<v Speaker 2>you got expelled and you're wondering what the next steps are.

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<v Speaker 2>This won't be an all in one guide to how

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<v Speaker 2>to become an activist, but it's sort of a sketch

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<v Speaker 2>of one. It's also not quite a complete Summer twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twenty four guide to protests, but there's some of that

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<v Speaker 2>in here too. It's a magpie's guide to getting started

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<v Speaker 2>in activism. I want to start with my own biases

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<v Speaker 2>up front, because it's going to inform everything that I

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<v Speaker 2>have to say about all of this. I'm an anarchist.

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<v Speaker 2>It's also been decades since I've broke into the movement.

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<v Speaker 2>I've been doing this stuff since two thousand and two,

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<v Speaker 2>when I dropped out of college to join the ultra

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<v Speaker 2>globalization movement. So I have biases towards things like dropping

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<v Speaker 2>out of college because it worked for me, and I

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<v Speaker 2>have You know, a lot of my experience isn't recent,

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<v Speaker 2>at least my direct experience personally, but I've been watching

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<v Speaker 2>people come into the movement for a very long time.

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<v Speaker 2>I also have biases against authoritarian organizing and electoral organizing,

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<v Speaker 2>and biases towards direct action and autonomy as models for

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<v Speaker 2>radical social change. I believe this is how you build

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<v Speaker 2>a freer and better world by practicing freedom along the way.

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<v Speaker 2>But you can adapt this to suit your own interests.

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<v Speaker 2>That's not to say I have any interest in guiding

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<v Speaker 2>people towards specific paths, specific actions, specific issues and movements.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly the opposite. This is my attempt to kind of

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<v Speaker 2>give a big picture view of how one might get

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<v Speaker 2>involved right now. I don't know if you knew this gear.

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<v Speaker 2>The world's kind of in trouble.

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<v Speaker 3>I have heard this before. I have heard this said, Yeah, do.

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<v Speaker 2>You ever think about how your job is to be

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<v Speaker 2>a professional chicken little?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah? Sometimes I guess so. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, I'm definitely in the dredges trying to find

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<v Speaker 3>what horrible things are always happening?

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<v Speaker 2>Certainly, Yeah, I would say even though the world is

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<v Speaker 2>always in serious trouble, it's like extra in serious trouble

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<v Speaker 2>right now, and we are in desperate need of people

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<v Speaker 2>who dedicate their time, whether part of it or all

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<v Speaker 2>of it, to trying to stop the terrible things that

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<v Speaker 2>are happening and trying to build beautiful things and beautiful alternatives.

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<v Speaker 2>So how do you get started? I want you to

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<v Speaker 2>think about a couple different things that are separate from

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<v Speaker 2>each other. I want you to think about This isn't

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<v Speaker 2>necessarily you gere, although you could if you want, sure,

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<v Speaker 2>why not?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>What do you care about? Like what issues are specifically

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<v Speaker 2>important to you? It's the first thing to think about.

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<v Speaker 2>The second is what do you want to do about it?

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<v Speaker 2>And if you have a sense of that, and like

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<v Speaker 2>also kind of how far you're willing to go. If

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<v Speaker 2>you get a sense of those things before you throw

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<v Speaker 2>yourself into the fight, you're going to start off strong.

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<v Speaker 2>Those things can change, they will change over time, but

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<v Speaker 2>getting a sense of those ahead of time is a

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<v Speaker 2>good way to figure out which door you want to

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<v Speaker 2>go in, and then also to avoid some of the

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<v Speaker 2>dangers that lie on the other side of any given door.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you care about? What movements and projects speak

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<v Speaker 2>loudest to you? A ton of causes are interconnected, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>right the fight for Palestinian liberation is not at its

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<v Speaker 2>core a separate project than the fight against policing in

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<v Speaker 2>the United States, for example, the rise of a global

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<v Speaker 2>police state is everyone's problem, and so is the US

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<v Speaker 2>and Zionist imperial project. Causes are interconnected, but you can

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<v Speaker 2>rarely start by trying to fix everything. Usually got to

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<v Speaker 2>pick somewhere to start working. You don't climb a mountain

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<v Speaker 2>by just willing yourself to the top. You climate by

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<v Speaker 2>picking a place and then starting to climate. Maybe you're

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<v Speaker 2>concerned about the police state or surveillance, or the erosion

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<v Speaker 2>of rights, or Palestinian liberation, or fighting for prisoners in

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<v Speaker 2>the US to still have access to books, or for

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<v Speaker 2>LGBT rights, or for migrants at the border, or for

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<v Speaker 2>the protection of the remaining national ecosystems and stopping the

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<v Speaker 2>expansion of fossil fuel infrastructure. Maybe you're concerned about something

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<v Speaker 2>hyper local, like the destruction of a local park or

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<v Speaker 2>the sweeping of homeless encampments. Maybe it's something a bit

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<v Speaker 2>broader and more abstract, like you want to get involved

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<v Speaker 2>in explaining the need for police abolition, but there's something,

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<v Speaker 2>there's something that you want to change. As a place

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<v Speaker 2>to start, the second question is what do you want

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<v Speaker 2>to do? There's multiple questions embedded in this. There's how

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<v Speaker 2>far are you willing to go? We'll talk more of

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<v Speaker 2>that later, more immediately, what is your skill set or

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<v Speaker 2>what skill sets do you wish you had? Like a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of times I'll just be like, oh, hey, what

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<v Speaker 2>are you good at? And now'll go do that? But

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes like what you're good at that isn't what you

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<v Speaker 2>want to be doing. And it's also totally okay to

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<v Speaker 2>be like, well what do I want to be good at?

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<v Speaker 2>Like what do I want to be trying to focus

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<v Speaker 2>on what do you have to offer the revolution or

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<v Speaker 2>what do you wish you had to offer? Are you

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<v Speaker 2>in med school or have other first aid or medical experience.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe you want to plug in with your local street medics.

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<v Speaker 2>Are you studying law? Movement lawyers need paralegal help, and

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<v Speaker 2>there are groups that use volunteers to get people out

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<v Speaker 2>of jail or through difficult court cases. If graphic design

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<v Speaker 2>is your passion. This is me referencing a meme from

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<v Speaker 2>a million years ago and totally winning people over. Every

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<v Speaker 2>group that exists needs help with their flyers or Instagram

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<v Speaker 2>slideshows or whatever the fuck that is certainly the case. Yeah. No,

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<v Speaker 2>it's funny too, right, because it's like it's one of

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<v Speaker 2>those things where if you do graphic design, you sort

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<v Speaker 2>of think like, oh, everyone sort of does this or whatever, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and then I've been part of groups where people are like,

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<v Speaker 2>no one knows how to do this at all, and

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<v Speaker 2>everything is that we make as garbage, you know.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, although there is actually a care full needle to

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<v Speaker 3>thread in this vein, because if you've had enough experience,

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<v Speaker 3>you can kind of figure out what type of action

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<v Speaker 3>it's gonna be based on how well designed and the flyer.

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<v Speaker 2>Is, yeah, and which way. If it's kind of corporate

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<v Speaker 2>well designed, it's like gonna tie into electoral politics and

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<v Speaker 2>be born. But if it's hip and well designed, it's

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<v Speaker 2>a riot.

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<v Speaker 4>Well.

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<v Speaker 3>Sometimes there's sometimes there's some like very like well designed

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<v Speaker 3>flyers that are not like very electoral, but they're like, okay,

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<v Speaker 3>this will be a marge, will be some speeches. We'll

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<v Speaker 3>kind of walk around a little bit because it's like

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<v Speaker 3>a very well polataild flyer versus when you have like

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<v Speaker 3>a white background of big block attacks, maybe one poorly

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<v Speaker 3>cropped picture, you're like, okay, this is obviously a riot flyer.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, okay.

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<v Speaker 3>It takes a degree of subtlety to get the instinctal

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<v Speaker 3>difference when you're looking at a collection of flyers that

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<v Speaker 3>are going out.

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<v Speaker 2>No.

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<v Speaker 4>See.

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<v Speaker 2>This is interesting to me because in like about fifteen

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<v Speaker 2>years ago, the people throwing the best riots were like

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<v Speaker 2>a bunch of graphic designers, and so it was the

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<v Speaker 2>specific h yeah, okay, okay, well you know, and actually,

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<v Speaker 2>as a good graphic designer knows the language that they

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<v Speaker 2>are speaking with and is what they're communicating, So that

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<v Speaker 2>might be what you want to do is get involved

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<v Speaker 2>in making the flyers. If you spend all day on Twitter.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of activist groups can't find someone to run

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<v Speaker 2>their social media, or they have people who run it

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<v Speaker 2>very badly. Sometimes being an extrovert is a superpower. Building

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<v Speaker 2>strong movements means building strong communities, and every meeting and

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<v Speaker 2>party needs someone willing to introduce themselves to the new

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<v Speaker 2>people and help them figure out where to go. The

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<v Speaker 2>best activist meetings I've ever been to have like someone

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<v Speaker 2>who's there to sit next to new people and explain

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<v Speaker 2>what's going on. Also, if you can plan a party,

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<v Speaker 2>you can plan a benefit show to money for bail funds.

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<v Speaker 2>There's kind of this like like whenever I talk about this, like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>everyone has their place and people are like, why don't

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a fucking bookkeeper, and I'm like, oh my god,

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<v Speaker 2>we need you, or like, you know, all kinds of

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<v Speaker 2>different skill sets that people like don't think apply actually

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<v Speaker 2>do project manager. Yeah, we're we're not all instinctively good

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<v Speaker 2>at that, you know. And so the quickest way to

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<v Speaker 2>sum this part of it up is you think about

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<v Speaker 2>what's wrong, and you think about what you're good at,

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<v Speaker 2>and then you get together with other people and apply

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<v Speaker 2>what you're good at to stopping what's wrong. That is

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<v Speaker 2>the like one sentence version of how to start getting

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<v Speaker 2>involved in making the world better. But the last part

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<v Speaker 2>of it that I want the like question of it

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<v Speaker 2>beforehand is risk analysis. It is very easy to get

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<v Speaker 2>swept up in the moment and go beyond your comfort

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<v Speaker 2>zone in terms of risk in a lot of different environments.

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<v Speaker 2>The more you have sorted out ahead of time about

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<v Speaker 2>what kinds of actions you're comfortable with strategically, morally, and personally.

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<v Speaker 2>The easier it is to stick to your decisions when

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<v Speaker 2>things get hard. For example, you might tell yourself, I

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<v Speaker 2>will risk arrest, but I will not get arrested on

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<v Speaker 2>purpose because I have a massage license I don't want

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<v Speaker 2>to lose, or I have kids at home, or I'm undocumented,

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<v Speaker 2>or I don't like the idea of jail. Whatever your

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<v Speaker 2>reason is, there's plenty of reasons to make that decision.

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<v Speaker 2>You might be willing to risk arrest, like be in

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<v Speaker 2>a hectic riot, but you're not willing to lock your

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<v Speaker 2>neck to a bulldozer. So when you go to the

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<v Speaker 2>planning meeting for the lock your neck to a bulldozer

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<v Speaker 2>action and you're trying to figure out who wants to

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<v Speaker 2>lock their neck to the bulldozer, you've already made up

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<v Speaker 2>your mind and you're less likely to kind of pressure

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<v Speaker 2>yourself into volunteering.

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<v Speaker 4>Or feel pressured by others.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm imagining the positive version. Well, okay, because it's

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<v Speaker 2>very rarely someone's like, hey, gear been a while since

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<v Speaker 2>you locked your neck to anything, and it's usually more

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<v Speaker 2>like man, it just sure would be good if someone

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<v Speaker 2>was bold and noble enough to just step up right

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<v Speaker 2>now now and then yeah yeah, yeah. I mean I've

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<v Speaker 2>organized some of my friends arrests before, and it's it's

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<v Speaker 2>not always that's not always the strategy that people want

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<v Speaker 2>to be doing. Anyway, I'm just using this as an example,

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<v Speaker 2>like a kind of Earth First style thing. If you

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<v Speaker 2>know what your risk models are, you can make better decisions.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe you're fine with a spirited march, but as soon

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<v Speaker 2>as windows start getting broken, you're like, you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>want to leave. That's going to not be my scene.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm not mad that the people did it,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's not what I am willing to get arrested

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<v Speaker 2>in response to. It's also important to know your risk levels,

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<v Speaker 2>which kind of course shift because there are predators in

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<v Speaker 2>the ranks of direct action activists. I don't know if

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<v Speaker 2>you knew this, gre there's a shadowy, unaccountable group that

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<v Speaker 2>tries to get people to break laws. They're called the FEDS.

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<v Speaker 2>They're called the FBI. They have a history going back

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<v Speaker 2>decades and then trapping people by coming up with bomb

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<v Speaker 2>plots or ars and plots or whatever. And we're not

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<v Speaker 2>going to go into this in depth in this episode,

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<v Speaker 2>but if you want to do more research, people should

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<v Speaker 2>look up They should read about cointel pro it's an acronym,

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<v Speaker 2>or read about the case of Eric McDavid, or read

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<v Speaker 2>about how the FBI set up Muslim Americans in the

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<v Speaker 2>wake of nine to eleven. But another thing you should

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<v Speaker 2>go into all this knowing is that that doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 2>that everyone who wants to do those kinds of actions

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<v Speaker 2>is working with the Feds.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and you shouldn't go around accusing everyone you don't

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<v Speaker 3>like of possibly being a secret and federal agent.

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<v Speaker 2>Because you know who likes accusing people of being federal agents.

0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:35.720
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:40.320
<v Speaker 2>And also our sponsors they don't, they don't. They're all great.

0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:43.240
<v Speaker 2>They might, they might, I don't know. I can't really

0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:45.319
<v Speaker 2>speak to them, but here they are, they can speak

0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:59.000
<v Speaker 2>to you, and we're back. That is a thing that

0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:02.160
<v Speaker 2>is absolutely worth anyone who's getting involved in activism, especially

0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.000
<v Speaker 2>direct action activism, including above grounds some of this obedient

0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:09.000
<v Speaker 2>style action. It is really worth understanding the ways in

0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:13.360
<v Speaker 2>which federal oppression works, and how federal oppression works often

0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:16.000
<v Speaker 2>by the fear of federal oppression and getting people to

0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:21.760
<v Speaker 2>spread paranoia and so as a general rule, The way

0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:23.839
<v Speaker 2>that I've always heard it talked about is that it's

0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:26.360
<v Speaker 2>like you never want to be like, hey, I think

0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:30.560
<v Speaker 2>that guy's a fed. Instead you're like, hey, guy, that

0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:34.200
<v Speaker 2>kind of behavior is disruptive and leads towards bad things,

0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:38.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, Like yeah.

0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:39.960
<v Speaker 3>And I think I even have some hesitation to just

0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.400
<v Speaker 3>be like you should just just go google co intel

0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:45.199
<v Speaker 3>pro and learn all about it, because I feel like

0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:47.560
<v Speaker 3>that can also lead to someone kind of falling down

0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:51.360
<v Speaker 3>like some conspiracy brained rabbit holes, and like, I've gotten

0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:56.520
<v Speaker 3>the best information by just talking to older people who've

0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:59.280
<v Speaker 3>been in the movement for a while, and like just

0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:01.640
<v Speaker 3>like if someone had like over ten years of experience

0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.880
<v Speaker 3>and they're like, you can learn a lot about what

0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:08.240
<v Speaker 3>has happened before through just like actual, like in person conversations.

0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:10.480
<v Speaker 3>And I have found that to be much more useful

0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:13.880
<v Speaker 3>than just like going down like a Google rabbit hole,

0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:15.920
<v Speaker 3>because that can just kind of lead to I think

0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:18.520
<v Speaker 3>slightly even slightly more like paranoid thinking or just it

0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:21.040
<v Speaker 3>just becomes like less applicable than like, hey, you have

0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:23.880
<v Speaker 3>like a friend of a friend who's like done this

0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:25.760
<v Speaker 3>for a while, and you just ask, hey, like what

0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:28.160
<v Speaker 3>if what do you know about this sort of thing?

0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:31.200
<v Speaker 3>Now you're right, what are your experiences of kind of

0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:34.640
<v Speaker 3>of facing like repression in the past. The true chances

0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:37.959
<v Speaker 3>are some of them will probably know people who've either

0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:41.160
<v Speaker 3>turned out to be like informants, has started informing or

0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:43.400
<v Speaker 3>were we're bad actors from the from the get go,

0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:46.080
<v Speaker 3>like it's it does, it does happen. And there's even

0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:48.160
<v Speaker 3>been case it's not even just like stuff from ten

0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.160
<v Speaker 3>fifteen years ago. There's a lot of that stuff post

0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:54.400
<v Speaker 3>twenty twenty. Some really some stuff in in Chicago, some

0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:58.320
<v Speaker 3>stuff in Colorado Springs have gotten decent news coverage. I

0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:00.880
<v Speaker 3>think you can also you can look to articles specifically

0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:05.280
<v Speaker 3>of the Colorado Springs infiltration that the FBI was running

0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:07.840
<v Speaker 3>around twenty twenty. I think that's a really useful case

0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.319
<v Speaker 3>study for a more recent version as opposed to like

0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:12.960
<v Speaker 3>the green scare stuff from at this point like twenty

0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:13.440
<v Speaker 3>years ago.

0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:16.760
<v Speaker 2>No, No, it's true, and there's a good there's actually

0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.760
<v Speaker 2>a good podcast series where I liked it called Alphabet Boys.

0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.680
<v Speaker 2>The first season is about that case. No, that's a

0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:25.440
<v Speaker 2>good point that you that random internet search is not

0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:27.560
<v Speaker 2>the way to get this kind of information. This information,

0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:30.880
<v Speaker 2>like you'll Honestly, it's kind of funny. I would trust

0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:34.320
<v Speaker 2>a random zine in a radical bookstore far more than

0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:37.440
<v Speaker 2>I would trust a Google search result. Agreed, which is

0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:43.200
<v Speaker 2>not true for everything like healthcare. Well, you're gonna get

0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:46.320
<v Speaker 2>shit answers no matter what if you do that. Yes, yes,

0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:48.680
<v Speaker 2>the internet is gonna tell you of cancer and the

0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:50.880
<v Speaker 2>zine's gonna tell you that t tre oil will fix it.

0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:52.520
<v Speaker 4>Yes, there we go.

0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:56.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, no, that is actually a very good point,

0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:57.840
<v Speaker 2>and it is the kind of thing that yeah, the

0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:00.200
<v Speaker 2>longer you're involved, the more you're just like, oh yeah, yeh,

0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:04.800
<v Speaker 2>the you know my ex who's a snitch that sucks?

0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:06.120
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, you know.

0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:10.240
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, now you have what you care about, what your

0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:12.760
<v Speaker 2>skills are in your risk analysis, it's time to get started.

0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:17.320
<v Speaker 2>How there's two basic ways, and they're not really a dichotomy.

0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.800
<v Speaker 2>But you can plug into something that exists and you

0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:23.480
<v Speaker 2>can start something of your own, and both are valid

0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:27.760
<v Speaker 2>and both have advantages and disadvantages. There are structures and

0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:29.880
<v Speaker 2>movements that are already in place that are desperate for

0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:35.920
<v Speaker 2>your help. There's a catch. Many, not all, but many

0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:38.720
<v Speaker 2>of the more reasonable groups are challenging to break into.

0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:43.680
<v Speaker 2>Very few groups have a truly open door policy, and

0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:48.600
<v Speaker 2>those that do honestly sometimes or suspect. Yeah, some of

0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:50.720
<v Speaker 2>those people are just trying to use you. They're trying

0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.840
<v Speaker 2>to suck you into a political political cult, or use

0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:56.600
<v Speaker 2>your energy and burn you out for some vaguely progressive

0:15:56.640 --> 0:16:01.720
<v Speaker 2>politician or activist cause. Oh. Either way, you're going to

0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:03.880
<v Speaker 2>need to exercise some common sense and do some reading

0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:08.120
<v Speaker 2>and research about what you're getting into. The best publicly

0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.800
<v Speaker 2>accessible groups and movements are the ones that are organized

0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.920
<v Speaker 2>from the bottom up, because the participants themselves have a

0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:17.320
<v Speaker 2>say in what's happening. There is less ability to be

0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:19.160
<v Speaker 2>sucked into a cult and used. That's not to say

0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:22.440
<v Speaker 2>it's impossible, and there are such things as decentralized cults

0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:23.720
<v Speaker 2>that don't do any you know.

0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:24.880
<v Speaker 4>Many such cases.

0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:29.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but I know it's easy and convenient to join

0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:31.040
<v Speaker 2>a group that'll just tell you what to do. It's

0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:33.640
<v Speaker 2>very nice to imagine that there's benevolent people who will

0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:35.480
<v Speaker 2>just do the hard part of making decisions and you

0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:37.400
<v Speaker 2>can just show up and clock in and listen to

0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:38.800
<v Speaker 2>what they have to say and make the world a

0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:42.880
<v Speaker 2>better place. This is rarely, if ever the case, I

0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:47.640
<v Speaker 2>can't point to examples of it being the case. Movements

0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:52.160
<v Speaker 2>that maintain everyone's autonomy. Instead, I think are what are interesting,

0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.400
<v Speaker 2>and they often do it by not being a group

0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:59.480
<v Speaker 2>at all, just a movement. The uprisings of twenty twenty,

0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:01.680
<v Speaker 2>I think are a a brilliant example of this. There's

0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:05.439
<v Speaker 2>not the group that organized no, And.

0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.440
<v Speaker 3>There's a lot of smaller, smaller groups, whether that be

0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:12.960
<v Speaker 3>some like informal organizations, formal organizations, or just like groups

0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.480
<v Speaker 3>of friends that it was. It's made up of a

0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:17.800
<v Speaker 3>whole bunch of these smaller groups. And I think a lot,

0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:20.359
<v Speaker 3>a lot of times the best case scenario in many

0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:23.840
<v Speaker 3>cases is if you have like a friend or too,

0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:25.960
<v Speaker 3>because you shouldn't really showed things alone. I would say,

0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:27.720
<v Speaker 3>but if you have a friend or two, go with

0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.600
<v Speaker 3>the friender too, just like just go to things. And

0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:32.760
<v Speaker 3>if you go to enough things and people see you,

0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.400
<v Speaker 3>you can chat with people, you can start learning more

0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.680
<v Speaker 3>about kind of what the different mechanisms in each different city,

0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:43.000
<v Speaker 3>and each each even't seen how how they operate. It's

0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:44.520
<v Speaker 3>it's kind of silly just to be like no, you

0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:46.000
<v Speaker 3>just like have to like show up. But like that

0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:47.880
<v Speaker 3>is kind of a lot of how it works. You'll

0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:53.480
<v Speaker 3>maybe hear about a Instagram account that posts flyers for

0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:57.679
<v Speaker 3>semi weekly like picnics organized by some of these same people,

0:17:57.720 --> 0:17:59.080
<v Speaker 3>and then you can go to events like that and

0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.679
<v Speaker 3>learn to like soci And it really just does require

0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:04.680
<v Speaker 3>a degree of just showing up. And you shouldn't go

0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.320
<v Speaker 3>by yourself. You should if you you should ideally have

0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:09.199
<v Speaker 3>a friend or too that you that is that they

0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:11.400
<v Speaker 3>would be okay going with you. But then you'll you'll

0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:13.680
<v Speaker 3>find people to connect with and you'll kind of maybe

0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:15.040
<v Speaker 3>find a different group of people that you want to

0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.800
<v Speaker 3>start hanging out with more. I think in general that's

0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:19.960
<v Speaker 3>kind of how the best case scenario works, as opposed

0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:22.880
<v Speaker 3>to like joining like a big above ground organization which

0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:25.000
<v Speaker 3>is just going to use your body as a tool

0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:28.360
<v Speaker 3>to get arrested as or just treat you as disposable

0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:30.960
<v Speaker 3>or in other cases just be actually kind of like abuse.

0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:33.280
<v Speaker 2>Of I agree with that, and that's some of that

0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:35.159
<v Speaker 2>we're going to get into also. But yeah, no, and

0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:39.320
<v Speaker 2>I will say overall, absolutely it is better to do

0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:43.919
<v Speaker 2>those things with friends. I didn't I started going to

0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:46.560
<v Speaker 2>things alone. That has something to do with my temperament,

0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:49.399
<v Speaker 2>and that has something to do with my social standing

0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:51.520
<v Speaker 2>when I was in college and decided to get involved

0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:57.520
<v Speaker 2>in the movement. But overall, that is the best practice.

0:18:57.920 --> 0:18:59.399
<v Speaker 2>But if you're listening to this and you're like, I

0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:01.159
<v Speaker 2>don't have friends I can go do this stuff with,

0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:05.480
<v Speaker 2>there are more risks involved, and you're also kind of stuck.

0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:07.679
<v Speaker 2>You're gonna go to a lot of things where no

0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:10.119
<v Speaker 2>one will talk to you, yeah, you know, and you

0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:14.440
<v Speaker 2>can't necessarily expect that people talk to you immediately or like,

0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:16.600
<v Speaker 2>and you're gonna have to be a little bit more

0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:17.400
<v Speaker 2>self motivated.

0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:19.879
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and if you're going to a zine fair, you

0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:22.920
<v Speaker 3>can chow some people at like the tables. When you're

0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:25.639
<v Speaker 3>looking for a zine, it's like it's, yeah, now everyone's

0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:28.639
<v Speaker 3>gonna want to get into a deep personal conversation with

0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:30.960
<v Speaker 3>a stranger they met at at an event like this,

0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:33.479
<v Speaker 3>because it also has like security risks. But yeah, I mean,

0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:36.680
<v Speaker 3>it's it's going to require a little bit of uncomfortable

0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.480
<v Speaker 3>social interactions, which for yeah, for someone like you or

0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:41.400
<v Speaker 3>me who did go to a lot of these things

0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:43.280
<v Speaker 3>just by ourselves.

0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:44.359
<v Speaker 4>You know, it just it just kind of.

0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:47.960
<v Speaker 2>Takes more time, No, totally, And I think actually zine

0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:49.919
<v Speaker 2>fairs and things like that, and anarchist book fairs and

0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:52.600
<v Speaker 2>all that are like really good examples of places that

0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:56.959
<v Speaker 2>are publicly facing that are designed for people to interact

0:19:57.040 --> 0:19:59.400
<v Speaker 2>with each other. And also, like one of the main

0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:02.720
<v Speaker 2>pieces of advice that we have is be brave, right,

0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.560
<v Speaker 2>and we talk about that in terms of like street actions.

0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:13.399
<v Speaker 2>But like, yeah, okay, also social anxiety exactly exactly because

0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:15.639
<v Speaker 2>how much of so social anxiety will become like an

0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:19.119
<v Speaker 2>inhibiting factor, similar to like the state. Not saying those

0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:21.119
<v Speaker 2>things are equal, but they can both like inhibit you

0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:23.240
<v Speaker 2>from doing things, and it's both you can you can

0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:25.600
<v Speaker 2>kind of approach it via similar means of trying to

0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:29.800
<v Speaker 2>like overcome this thing that is limiting your autonomy. Yeah, no, totally.

0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:34.560
<v Speaker 2>So to go back to, if you're joining an existing group,

0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:39.560
<v Speaker 2>some groups maintain everyone's autonomy by being structured horizontally. Some

0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.800
<v Speaker 2>groups that exist as a structure will do it by

0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:45.520
<v Speaker 2>being structured horizontally. If you found yourself for go ahead,

0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:49.240
<v Speaker 2>claim to be structured horizontally as well. No, it's true,

0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:51.800
<v Speaker 2>but like like if you join a local Earth first chapter,

0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:55.400
<v Speaker 2>you're going to find there's absolutely informal hierarchies that exist

0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:57.320
<v Speaker 2>within these things, and they're like worth being aware of.

0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:00.760
<v Speaker 2>But the decision about who's to lock their neck to

0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:03.760
<v Speaker 2>the bulldozer is going to involve everyone who might lock

0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:04.840
<v Speaker 2>their neck to the bulldozer.

0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:07.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's not the same as like the DSA or

0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:10.440
<v Speaker 3>the PSL like it's it's going to be a very

0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:13.760
<v Speaker 3>a very different, uh organizational structure.

0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:18.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly. And so you know, you want to be

0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:20.920
<v Speaker 2>part of the decision making about locking your neck to

0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:22.920
<v Speaker 2>a bulldozer because it's your neck on the line. That's

0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:26.200
<v Speaker 2>my best joke in the whole script. I'm sorry, we'll

0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:40.119
<v Speaker 2>just move past it quickly. Thanks. Plugging into an existing

0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:43.320
<v Speaker 2>project is often the good first step. What I did

0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:45.879
<v Speaker 2>personally I started showing up to the meetings of this

0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:49.679
<v Speaker 2>radical media project, Indie Media. I had film skills, and

0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:52.480
<v Speaker 2>soon enough I found myself in the film collective. I

0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:55.320
<v Speaker 2>spent a year or two bouncing around from demonstration to demonstration,

0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:58.600
<v Speaker 2>coordinating with all the radical videographers to collect everyone's footage

0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:01.280
<v Speaker 2>and edit together news of its about what had happened.

0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:06.480
<v Speaker 2>While we collectively fostered a culture of like respectful riot videography.

0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:09.000
<v Speaker 4>I did not realize we had that similar background.

0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:12.600
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, no, that it's interesting because I don't I

0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:15.080
<v Speaker 2>don't do that stuff anymore. But that was like my

0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:16.639
<v Speaker 2>thing for a long time.

0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:19.600
<v Speaker 3>Me either, actually, But no, I did not realize we

0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:23.000
<v Speaker 3>had we had that. Uh we had that Overlapp.

0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:26.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, and it was it was great and it

0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:28.879
<v Speaker 2>was fun and we you know, we taught how to

0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:33.120
<v Speaker 2>not film people's faces. We coordinated runners where in order

0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:35.439
<v Speaker 2>to get footage out before the cops could get it.

0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:38.680
<v Speaker 2>We'd make sure everyone, you know, someone, every videographer had

0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:40.919
<v Speaker 2>someone next to them, like ready to run out of

0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:42.080
<v Speaker 2>the situation.

0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:44.359
<v Speaker 4>Take this SD card and run yep, exactly.

0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:48.119
<v Speaker 2>And I started off by joining an existing group that

0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:49.919
<v Speaker 2>was doing this, but within a few months I was

0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:52.840
<v Speaker 2>doing it independently and coordinating with different groups that came

0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:55.480
<v Speaker 2>together at all these different summit protests because I was

0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:59.600
<v Speaker 2>a known entity to people. You know, it was fun.

0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:01.920
<v Speaker 2>I dropped out of school where I've been studying film

0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:05.760
<v Speaker 2>and photography, and even before I would have graduated, a

0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:08.360
<v Speaker 2>film I had edited sold out a movie theater in Portland.

0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:10.960
<v Speaker 2>We didn't have YouTube, so we organized in person.

0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:16.040
<v Speaker 3>Kate, that makes sense, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:23:16.080 --> 0:23:18.840
<v Speaker 2>When when we shut the city down on like March

0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:22.879
<v Speaker 2>twentieth or whatever, twenty two thousand and three, for to

0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:26.680
<v Speaker 2>try and stop the Iraq war. I like didn't sleep

0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:29.919
<v Speaker 2>and just edited everyone's film footage together and made a

0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:32.959
<v Speaker 2>like thirty minute documentary about the day of protest and

0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:36.119
<v Speaker 2>sold out a movie theater and I was like, damn,

0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:37.960
<v Speaker 2>this was way better for my career than going to

0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:41.280
<v Speaker 2>fuck it, staying at school. I mean, like, my name

0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:43.680
<v Speaker 2>isn't on it, but that like didn't matter to me. Sure,

0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:46.680
<v Speaker 2>And then everyone the local news media got really mad

0:23:46.680 --> 0:23:49.840
<v Speaker 2>because I didn't include the stuff that could have been

0:23:49.920 --> 0:23:52.120
<v Speaker 2>used in people's court cases, like the time that people

0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:54.639
<v Speaker 2>attacked cops on the bridge, because I was like, nope,

0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:57.960
<v Speaker 2>that's too recent. We don't know what's happening there anyway.

0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:01.639
<v Speaker 2>And get into certain types of groups is kind of

0:24:01.680 --> 0:24:04.520
<v Speaker 2>like applying for a shitty job. A job that'll take

0:24:04.520 --> 0:24:06.400
<v Speaker 2>you without reference is going to treat you like shit.

0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:09.119
<v Speaker 2>But jobs that are worth having require you to somehow

0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:11.159
<v Speaker 2>have already been doing the job before you got hired,

0:24:12.440 --> 0:24:14.119
<v Speaker 2>And once people know who you are, it's easier to

0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:16.159
<v Speaker 2>find folks who work with And I think gear suggestions

0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:18.879
<v Speaker 2>is like the main way you go about that is

0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:21.920
<v Speaker 2>you don't necessarily show up to organize. You just show

0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:24.160
<v Speaker 2>up to participate. You show up to talks, you show

0:24:24.240 --> 0:24:28.200
<v Speaker 2>up to radical bookstores and public events and zine fairs

0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:32.679
<v Speaker 2>and protests and whatever interests you you know, And I

0:24:32.680 --> 0:24:34.760
<v Speaker 2>would say that if you're going to actions and you're new,

0:24:34.920 --> 0:24:37.280
<v Speaker 2>remember to be both brave and cautious. If you tend

0:24:37.320 --> 0:24:40.680
<v Speaker 2>towards recklessness and being swept into things, maybe make sure

0:24:40.720 --> 0:24:42.680
<v Speaker 2>you take less of a frontline's role until you get

0:24:42.680 --> 0:24:45.480
<v Speaker 2>your legs underneath you. But it really is okay to

0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:47.280
<v Speaker 2>be brave. I think we're asked by the times we

0:24:47.359 --> 0:24:49.200
<v Speaker 2>live in to be brave, and sometimes we're going to

0:24:49.240 --> 0:24:51.200
<v Speaker 2>have to step outside of our comfort zone. We should

0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:54.240
<v Speaker 2>just always look to make sure it's us encouraging us

0:24:54.280 --> 0:24:57.440
<v Speaker 2>to step outside of our comfort zone instead of political

0:24:57.480 --> 0:25:00.919
<v Speaker 2>actors whatever political ideology they call themselves.

0:25:01.440 --> 0:25:04.960
<v Speaker 3>And also if you can another another collective that people

0:25:05.000 --> 0:25:06.960
<v Speaker 3>you know, these are like usually like medic collectives will

0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:09.439
<v Speaker 3>maybe maybe we'll have like a radical media collective and

0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:12.000
<v Speaker 3>another another one will be a jail support collective is

0:25:12.080 --> 0:25:15.399
<v Speaker 3>very common a lot of cities, and not even if

0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:17.080
<v Speaker 3>you don't want to take part in that, if you

0:25:17.080 --> 0:25:18.880
<v Speaker 3>can at least get in touch with them to fill

0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:21.439
<v Speaker 3>out a jail support form before going to things that

0:25:21.480 --> 0:25:24.399
<v Speaker 3>will also be useful in case you do end up

0:25:24.440 --> 0:25:26.280
<v Speaker 3>getting arrested, so people can actually find you in the

0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:28.879
<v Speaker 3>system and help you get out of get out. Just

0:25:28.920 --> 0:25:31.760
<v Speaker 3>another another quick tip, I suppose.

0:25:31.960 --> 0:25:34.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And if you want more quick tips, I've got

0:25:34.640 --> 0:25:48.840
<v Speaker 2>some for you right now and we're back. Don't do

0:25:48.960 --> 0:25:51.160
<v Speaker 2>anything that you just got told by voices that aren't

0:25:51.200 --> 0:25:51.680
<v Speaker 2>me or there.

0:25:52.240 --> 0:25:54.479
<v Speaker 4>They were trying to sihap you. It is. It is

0:25:54.640 --> 0:25:55.080
<v Speaker 4>the yeah.

0:25:55.200 --> 0:25:59.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Another way that you might get involved in something

0:25:59.520 --> 0:26:01.760
<v Speaker 2>is you Some groups are semi open where you can

0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:04.040
<v Speaker 2>contact them and express interest and they might do some

0:26:04.119 --> 0:26:06.399
<v Speaker 2>basic screening to make sure you're not like a Nazi

0:26:06.440 --> 0:26:08.879
<v Speaker 2>infiltrator or whatever. I'm in the process right now of

0:26:08.880 --> 0:26:10.840
<v Speaker 2>doing that with clinic escorting. It's like funny because i

0:26:10.840 --> 0:26:13.240
<v Speaker 2>haven't had to like prove myself to any group in

0:26:13.280 --> 0:26:16.199
<v Speaker 2>a long time, right because I'm like I've been around forever.

0:26:16.920 --> 0:26:18.639
<v Speaker 2>The clinic escorting group, it's like, we don't fucking know

0:26:18.640 --> 0:26:21.200
<v Speaker 2>who you are. And I'm like, yeah, that's fair, give

0:26:21.240 --> 0:26:24.680
<v Speaker 2>me that. Yeah, No, absolutely, I live in a place

0:26:24.760 --> 0:26:27.480
<v Speaker 2>is not where abortion is not particularly popular with the

0:26:27.560 --> 0:26:29.280
<v Speaker 2>right wing, and so I submitted my name and social

0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:33.520
<v Speaker 2>media accounts to the to the abortion clinic escorting place,

0:26:34.359 --> 0:26:36.040
<v Speaker 2>and then we'll go to a training at some point

0:26:36.080 --> 0:26:39.919
<v Speaker 2>soon for folks living in southern California or willing to

0:26:39.960 --> 0:26:42.800
<v Speaker 2>go there. For example, there are groups that do border solidarity,

0:26:42.840 --> 0:26:44.840
<v Speaker 2>working with refugees to make sure they're fed in house.

0:26:44.880 --> 0:26:47.639
<v Speaker 2>If you listen to this podcast, you've heard James talking

0:26:47.680 --> 0:26:49.560
<v Speaker 2>about this, and this is the first episode you've listened to,

0:26:49.640 --> 0:26:51.320
<v Speaker 2>in which case, go back and listen to James talking

0:26:51.320 --> 0:26:54.800
<v Speaker 2>about border solidarity work. If you want to show up

0:26:54.920 --> 0:26:58.440
<v Speaker 2>and distribute food and water, track border patrol activity, build shelters,

0:26:58.480 --> 0:27:00.920
<v Speaker 2>do First DAID, all of that, feel like you're part

0:27:00.960 --> 0:27:03.480
<v Speaker 2>of something because you are and are like saving people's

0:27:03.480 --> 0:27:07.520
<v Speaker 2>lives directly. That's something you can likely get involved with,

0:27:08.040 --> 0:27:10.919
<v Speaker 2>but it's not something you just show up at. There

0:27:10.960 --> 0:27:13.200
<v Speaker 2>are a few groups doing that work, any of whom

0:27:13.480 --> 0:27:16.720
<v Speaker 2>you can reach out to and express interest. There's Border Kindness,

0:27:16.800 --> 0:27:20.720
<v Speaker 2>there's Borderlands Relief Collective and Al Ultra Lado, and there's

0:27:20.760 --> 0:27:22.600
<v Speaker 2>other groups like this in different areas. But these are

0:27:22.600 --> 0:27:25.320
<v Speaker 2>the examples where I asked James being like, Hey, how

0:27:25.320 --> 0:27:31.040
<v Speaker 2>do I explain the following concept? In general, you want

0:27:31.040 --> 0:27:33.960
<v Speaker 2>to look for groups. If you're looking for groups, to

0:27:34.200 --> 0:27:36.840
<v Speaker 2>look for groups that are grassroots and non authoritarian. You

0:27:36.880 --> 0:27:39.120
<v Speaker 2>want to watch out for electoral campaigns, and you want

0:27:39.119 --> 0:27:41.360
<v Speaker 2>to watch out for nonprofits. This is not to say

0:27:41.359 --> 0:27:44.800
<v Speaker 2>that the people doing these things are necessarily bad. There

0:27:44.840 --> 0:27:47.720
<v Speaker 2>are local political campaigns that matter, and there are nonprofits

0:27:47.760 --> 0:27:49.720
<v Speaker 2>that do good work. Some of the best political work

0:27:49.720 --> 0:27:52.080
<v Speaker 2>I ever did was two years out a nonprofit, honestly,

0:27:52.119 --> 0:27:55.320
<v Speaker 2>but I was with one of the good ones. And

0:27:56.560 --> 0:28:00.600
<v Speaker 2>structurally those systems, even the good ones, are set up

0:28:00.600 --> 0:28:03.400
<v Speaker 2>to take advantage of people's energy and then like kind

0:28:03.400 --> 0:28:07.320
<v Speaker 2>of profit off of it, right, and to accomplish goals

0:28:07.320 --> 0:28:10.240
<v Speaker 2>that are often tangential to or even counter to the

0:28:10.280 --> 0:28:14.879
<v Speaker 2>goals that they claim. For example, both politicians and nonprofits

0:28:15.280 --> 0:28:18.560
<v Speaker 2>live off of donations. These donations are easy for them

0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:22.359
<v Speaker 2>to get when those groups are seen as necessary, so

0:28:22.400 --> 0:28:26.600
<v Speaker 2>a nonprofit has a financial interest in not winning. Some

0:28:26.720 --> 0:28:30.320
<v Speaker 2>nonprofits manage to maintain their focus and make themselves work

0:28:30.359 --> 0:28:35.560
<v Speaker 2>to make themselves obsolete, but frankly those are the minority.

0:28:36.200 --> 0:28:37.800
<v Speaker 2>You also want to look out for groups that are

0:28:37.840 --> 0:28:40.920
<v Speaker 2>front groups for authoritarian groups attached to communist political parties

0:28:40.920 --> 0:28:43.520
<v Speaker 2>you mentioned earlier, like the PSL the Party for Socialism

0:28:43.520 --> 0:28:48.920
<v Speaker 2>and Liberation. Generally speaking, these groups will go to protests

0:28:48.960 --> 0:28:51.880
<v Speaker 2>and run events primarily as a way to recruit people

0:28:51.880 --> 0:28:55.600
<v Speaker 2>into a hierarchical structure. These groups are often trying to

0:28:55.640 --> 0:28:58.880
<v Speaker 2>control broader movements that they're involved in. They'll tell people

0:28:58.880 --> 0:29:01.400
<v Speaker 2>how they can and can't pro test, and they're trying

0:29:01.400 --> 0:29:07.800
<v Speaker 2>to essentially own movements that were built by others. So

0:29:07.840 --> 0:29:11.680
<v Speaker 2>those are things to be careful around. You can also

0:29:11.720 --> 0:29:13.880
<v Speaker 2>just not worry about any of that stuff and start

0:29:13.920 --> 0:29:19.080
<v Speaker 2>something yourself. It is not the easy mode to get

0:29:19.080 --> 0:29:21.080
<v Speaker 2>into the movement by starting your own projects. We're gonna

0:29:21.080 --> 0:29:22.600
<v Speaker 2>talk about a ffinity groups later. Actually it was just

0:29:22.600 --> 0:29:23.920
<v Speaker 2>the thing that you kind of started to bring up,

0:29:24.240 --> 0:29:26.960
<v Speaker 2>But it is very rewarding to start your own projects.

0:29:27.280 --> 0:29:29.600
<v Speaker 2>It's like freelancing instead of looking for a job. There's

0:29:29.600 --> 0:29:32.280
<v Speaker 2>no gatekeepers to cross, and the only person who's trying

0:29:32.280 --> 0:29:35.520
<v Speaker 2>to take advantage of you is you. If you want

0:29:35.520 --> 0:29:38.120
<v Speaker 2>to never not be working another day in your life,

0:29:38.360 --> 0:29:42.760
<v Speaker 2>you can freelance or start your own political project. It'll

0:29:42.800 --> 0:29:48.280
<v Speaker 2>be what you think about every hour you're alive in essence,

0:29:48.760 --> 0:29:51.040
<v Speaker 2>the idea here is to say, okay, what's wrong and

0:29:51.080 --> 0:29:52.600
<v Speaker 2>what are we willing to do about it, and then

0:29:52.640 --> 0:29:55.560
<v Speaker 2>get together with your friends and start doing something about it.

0:29:56.160 --> 0:29:57.840
<v Speaker 2>This can look like anything.

0:29:58.320 --> 0:29:58.800
<v Speaker 4>You could start.

0:29:58.800 --> 0:30:01.960
<v Speaker 2>A mutual aid group, bookstore, an anti fascist jim to

0:30:02.000 --> 0:30:05.560
<v Speaker 2>Trained to defend yourself from fascists. Illegal HRT distribution in

0:30:05.640 --> 0:30:09.480
<v Speaker 2>band States, a direct action abortion collective, a zine distributor

0:30:09.480 --> 0:30:12.280
<v Speaker 2>that goes to shows and parties with free literature about anarchism.

0:30:12.480 --> 0:30:14.360
<v Speaker 2>A podcast about how things fall apart and how to

0:30:14.360 --> 0:30:17.479
<v Speaker 2>put them back together again. A click of saboteurs who

0:30:17.520 --> 0:30:20.480
<v Speaker 2>attack billboards. A group that draws attention to international movement

0:30:20.520 --> 0:30:23.920
<v Speaker 2>prisoners and support them. Like you can do anything, And

0:30:23.960 --> 0:30:27.720
<v Speaker 2>that's one of the like things that people. Our society

0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:29.200
<v Speaker 2>is designed to tell us that we can't just do

0:30:29.240 --> 0:30:31.400
<v Speaker 2>anything we want. There's obviously things that if we do,

0:30:31.440 --> 0:30:36.520
<v Speaker 2>we'll get in trouble eventually, but like you know, okay.

0:30:36.400 --> 0:30:38.800
<v Speaker 3>Like like if you make a podcast that's too good,

0:30:39.160 --> 0:30:41.560
<v Speaker 3>yeah they will, they will turn on you, like Jesus,

0:30:41.760 --> 0:30:47.000
<v Speaker 3>yeah exactly. Or if you go around you know, wanting

0:30:47.040 --> 0:30:49.280
<v Speaker 3>to destroy construction equipment, right.

0:30:49.560 --> 0:30:53.480
<v Speaker 2>Not usually legal. I'm not a lawyer, I can't tell

0:30:53.520 --> 0:30:56.920
<v Speaker 2>you whether or not any given bulldozer is illegal to destroy.

0:30:57.920 --> 0:30:59.560
<v Speaker 2>That is the kind of research you might have to

0:30:59.560 --> 0:31:02.720
<v Speaker 2>do on your own. The difference between start something and

0:31:02.760 --> 0:31:06.120
<v Speaker 2>enjoining something is often blurry. For example, you can unionize

0:31:06.160 --> 0:31:09.560
<v Speaker 2>your workplace. You probably should, but you might want to

0:31:09.560 --> 0:31:11.600
<v Speaker 2>do that in the context of an existing union like

0:31:11.640 --> 0:31:14.360
<v Speaker 2>the Industrial Workers of the World or whatever union makes the.

0:31:14.360 --> 0:31:15.880
<v Speaker 4>Most so the writer's field of America.

0:31:16.040 --> 0:31:16.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah exactly.

0:31:17.240 --> 0:31:20.880
<v Speaker 4>If you have a podcast about how the world's falling apart, Yeah, yeah, exactly.

0:31:22.720 --> 0:31:25.040
<v Speaker 2>If you're going to start something above ground, it's worth

0:31:25.080 --> 0:31:27.400
<v Speaker 2>looking around and making sure that the need isn't already

0:31:27.440 --> 0:31:29.960
<v Speaker 2>being met by someone else already. Sometimes it's better to

0:31:29.960 --> 0:31:31.920
<v Speaker 2>figure out how to help an existing bail fund rather

0:31:31.920 --> 0:31:35.520
<v Speaker 2>than start another. But also sometimes it is better to

0:31:35.520 --> 0:31:38.280
<v Speaker 2>start another, Like it's harder for the police to raide,

0:31:38.280 --> 0:31:40.320
<v Speaker 2>for example, which didn't used to be an issue when

0:31:40.320 --> 0:31:44.680
<v Speaker 2>you start bail funds, but is now an issue, which

0:31:44.720 --> 0:31:49.600
<v Speaker 2>is worth pointing out that like there's no true safety,

0:31:49.640 --> 0:31:52.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, like when we talk about risk analysis, like

0:31:53.920 --> 0:31:57.880
<v Speaker 2>running a bail fund is entirely legal and is the

0:31:58.000 --> 0:32:01.600
<v Speaker 2>kind of thing that often is done by the people

0:32:01.640 --> 0:32:06.840
<v Speaker 2>who care about a movement and are like not frontlines people, Yeah.

0:32:06.680 --> 0:32:11.280
<v Speaker 3>Aren't wanting to do felonies in downtown right Portland or whatever.

0:32:11.480 --> 0:32:16.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the more successful a movement is the broader. The

0:32:16.200 --> 0:32:19.400
<v Speaker 2>state repression will reach out to the fringes, not the French.

0:32:19.440 --> 0:32:20.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean the bail fund isn't the fringe, but the

0:32:21.440 --> 0:32:25.680
<v Speaker 2>less privery. The people who aren't committing the felon felonies. Yeah,

0:32:25.840 --> 0:32:28.440
<v Speaker 2>are going to get tagged with felonies anyway, because the

0:32:28.480 --> 0:32:31.680
<v Speaker 2>state being repressive is the reason we're fighting it.

0:32:32.480 --> 0:32:34.840
<v Speaker 3>They will still get their houses rated. And it's the

0:32:34.840 --> 0:32:36.800
<v Speaker 3>same same thing ad demos. You don't need to be

0:32:36.840 --> 0:32:39.600
<v Speaker 3>the one breaking windows for the police to tackle you.

0:32:40.120 --> 0:32:43.320
<v Speaker 3>Like at a certain point, it actually doesn't. It seems

0:32:43.360 --> 0:32:47.640
<v Speaker 3>to matter very little. I mean if things get to trial,

0:32:47.720 --> 0:32:49.800
<v Speaker 3>then things you know will maybe matter a bit more.

0:32:50.080 --> 0:32:53.520
<v Speaker 3>But in like how police display the power of the state,

0:32:53.640 --> 0:32:57.880
<v Speaker 3>Like out in the open world, it really doesn't matter

0:32:57.920 --> 0:33:00.000
<v Speaker 3>if you're holding a sign or you're holding a ham

0:33:00.120 --> 0:33:02.680
<v Speaker 3>or when you're getting tackled from behind by a big

0:33:02.720 --> 0:33:03.400
<v Speaker 3>man with a gun.

0:33:03.520 --> 0:33:06.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally, which is why it's like kind of worth

0:33:06.600 --> 0:33:08.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean that's like almost like what the answer to

0:33:08.640 --> 0:33:12.360
<v Speaker 2>that is like solidarity, and by recognizing that to a

0:33:12.360 --> 0:33:14.320
<v Speaker 2>certain degree, if you were at a protest and people

0:33:14.360 --> 0:33:18.040
<v Speaker 2>are breaking windows and it's like, okay, well now we're

0:33:18.080 --> 0:33:21.680
<v Speaker 2>all in danger together, and if that is a danger

0:33:21.720 --> 0:33:25.560
<v Speaker 2>beyond what you particularly feel like exposing yourself to, that

0:33:25.640 --> 0:33:30.120
<v Speaker 2>is probably the time to depart. Another pitfall to avoid

0:33:30.520 --> 0:33:34.720
<v Speaker 2>if you're starting your own thing. Any group that involves

0:33:34.760 --> 0:33:36.760
<v Speaker 2>money will at some point have someone from that group

0:33:36.800 --> 0:33:37.240
<v Speaker 2>steal the.

0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:44.479
<v Speaker 3>Money, including bail fuds. Unfortunately, it does happen, and it sucks.

0:33:44.600 --> 0:33:48.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I have lost count of the number of times

0:33:48.600 --> 0:33:52.080
<v Speaker 2>someone who was an organizer has stolen all of the

0:33:52.120 --> 0:33:56.760
<v Speaker 2>money from this or that thing. And that's because capitalism

0:33:56.760 --> 0:34:00.400
<v Speaker 2>puts people in absolutely weird and terrible positions. Right, it's

0:34:00.440 --> 0:34:02.600
<v Speaker 2>still not okay for people to steal the bail fund,

0:34:02.640 --> 0:34:07.120
<v Speaker 2>and we should stop them. But often the people who

0:34:07.160 --> 0:34:09.160
<v Speaker 2>steal the stuff, if they're the organizers, they don't even

0:34:09.160 --> 0:34:11.680
<v Speaker 2>necessarily conceptualize what they did as stealing. They're like, oh,

0:34:11.719 --> 0:34:13.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna pay that back. I don't think anyone needs

0:34:13.560 --> 0:34:16.600
<v Speaker 2>it right now. I just need it for rent.

0:34:17.040 --> 0:34:18.880
<v Speaker 3>In order for the bail fund to continue, I have

0:34:18.920 --> 0:34:20.959
<v Speaker 3>to have stable housing so I need to use these

0:34:21.160 --> 0:34:22.680
<v Speaker 3>two thousand dollars right now, and.

0:34:22.680 --> 0:34:24.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right without checking with the rest of the group,

0:34:24.960 --> 0:34:31.160
<v Speaker 2>and like, you know, like and so if there's money involved,

0:34:31.480 --> 0:34:34.880
<v Speaker 2>you should set up some best practices around multiple eyes

0:34:34.920 --> 0:34:37.200
<v Speaker 2>on the money at any given point and making sure

0:34:37.239 --> 0:34:41.280
<v Speaker 2>that it's accountable to the broader group. One organizing model

0:34:41.320 --> 0:34:44.880
<v Speaker 2>that is worth considering is the affinity group. This is

0:34:44.920 --> 0:34:47.200
<v Speaker 2>basically you and some of your closest friends that you

0:34:47.200 --> 0:34:49.680
<v Speaker 2>feel like doing safe with actions with, whatever the scale

0:34:49.680 --> 0:34:51.680
<v Speaker 2>of actions, you get together with your friends.

0:34:51.680 --> 0:34:55.200
<v Speaker 3>Or people you're not even necessarily like social friends with,

0:34:55.760 --> 0:34:59.440
<v Speaker 3>but people you feel comfortable working with, because there sometimes

0:34:59.480 --> 0:35:01.040
<v Speaker 3>is a distinction. Like you said, sometimes you have a

0:35:01.040 --> 0:35:03.680
<v Speaker 3>lot of close friends you don't want int your affinity group,

0:35:03.719 --> 0:35:05.759
<v Speaker 3>and sometimes there's people in your affinity group that you

0:35:05.800 --> 0:35:08.480
<v Speaker 3>may not really want to hang out with like every

0:35:08.520 --> 0:35:11.399
<v Speaker 3>week totally, but they're good to work with. Now, that's

0:35:11.680 --> 0:35:14.759
<v Speaker 3>a really good point. It's about trust rather than like

0:35:15.280 --> 0:35:19.080
<v Speaker 3>getting along with sometimes you know, yeah, it might function

0:35:19.200 --> 0:35:21.680
<v Speaker 3>better if you know, you don't all hate each other, ah,

0:35:22.239 --> 0:35:25.759
<v Speaker 3>have some affinity yeah, yes, you know, but perhaps you

0:35:25.800 --> 0:35:27.560
<v Speaker 3>have a shared affinity within the group.

0:35:28.320 --> 0:35:32.719
<v Speaker 2>Ideally, Yeah, it is if you're in a riot, whether

0:35:32.800 --> 0:35:36.000
<v Speaker 2>by choice or by accident, you are safer and you

0:35:36.000 --> 0:35:38.399
<v Speaker 2>can feel more comfortable if you are there with two

0:35:38.560 --> 0:35:41.840
<v Speaker 2>or seven of your closest and most trustworthy friends or frenemies.

0:35:42.840 --> 0:35:45.200
<v Speaker 2>These are the people who are the most likely to

0:35:45.239 --> 0:35:47.440
<v Speaker 2>de arrest you. These are the people who are there

0:35:47.480 --> 0:35:50.200
<v Speaker 2>to notice if you are caught and will organize your bail.

0:35:51.080 --> 0:35:53.120
<v Speaker 2>These are the people who'll be in direct commun You'll

0:35:53.120 --> 0:35:55.160
<v Speaker 2>be in direct communication with during the protest, so you

0:35:55.200 --> 0:35:56.600
<v Speaker 2>can coordinate your actions together.

0:35:57.320 --> 0:35:59.319
<v Speaker 3>It's figure out how you want to get into the

0:35:59.360 --> 0:36:00.720
<v Speaker 3>area get out of the area.

0:36:01.440 --> 0:36:07.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And so that's like a going alone is sort

0:36:07.320 --> 0:36:10.080
<v Speaker 2>of expert mode, and so you should take fewer risks

0:36:10.080 --> 0:36:13.440
<v Speaker 2>if you go alone until you are good, you know,

0:36:14.040 --> 0:36:19.319
<v Speaker 2>and most people do not prefer and are not better

0:36:19.360 --> 0:36:22.279
<v Speaker 2>off going to protest alone. And then the final thing

0:36:22.840 --> 0:36:25.959
<v Speaker 2>kind of tying together the existing groups versus whatever else

0:36:26.239 --> 0:36:30.560
<v Speaker 2>existing protests movements EBB and flow protests are contagious, especially

0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:32.680
<v Speaker 2>when they're rowdy and they show that they take themselves

0:36:32.719 --> 0:36:35.800
<v Speaker 2>seriously enough to not just go along with whatever professional

0:36:35.880 --> 0:36:39.360
<v Speaker 2>protest managers tell them to do, and take themselves seriously

0:36:39.440 --> 0:36:43.080
<v Speaker 2>enough to resist the police and authorities. It's more or

0:36:43.120 --> 0:36:46.080
<v Speaker 2>less impossible to know which protests like sparks, will catch

0:36:46.120 --> 0:36:48.880
<v Speaker 2>a bigger fire. It is good and useful to cast

0:36:48.960 --> 0:36:52.000
<v Speaker 2>sparks and see what catches, or to notice when something

0:36:52.080 --> 0:36:54.200
<v Speaker 2>is starting to spread and to help it spread.

0:36:55.239 --> 0:36:57.240
<v Speaker 3>Like what happened a few weeks ago with the campus stuff,

0:36:57.280 --> 0:37:01.200
<v Speaker 3>right exactly? What are two places really start popping off?

0:37:01.239 --> 0:37:04.000
<v Speaker 3>And you're like, hey, I know some people in college

0:37:04.080 --> 0:37:05.799
<v Speaker 3>who are in whatever town I'm in.

0:37:05.960 --> 0:37:07.680
<v Speaker 4>Maybe we can figure something out.

0:37:07.760 --> 0:37:11.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and so's if that was your involvement. And you're like, oh,

0:37:11.360 --> 0:37:14.719
<v Speaker 2>that's not currently happening where I am anymore. What do

0:37:14.760 --> 0:37:17.600
<v Speaker 2>I do next? Things like that will happen again, and

0:37:17.640 --> 0:37:20.400
<v Speaker 2>you can also make things like that happen. Most of

0:37:20.440 --> 0:37:24.640
<v Speaker 2>the time they will not catch. However, sometimes they do,

0:37:24.760 --> 0:37:28.080
<v Speaker 2>and that is like kind of our job in a

0:37:28.080 --> 0:37:30.439
<v Speaker 2>lot of ways is to organize things and try things

0:37:30.440 --> 0:37:34.600
<v Speaker 2>and see what catches. I'm curious your take. There are

0:37:34.600 --> 0:37:38.480
<v Speaker 2>two political conventions happening this year. The Republican National Convention

0:37:38.520 --> 0:37:41.239
<v Speaker 2>will happen from July fifteenth to eighteenth, twenty twenty four,

0:37:41.320 --> 0:37:45.240
<v Speaker 2>in Milwaukee, and then in August nineteenth to twenty second

0:37:45.280 --> 0:37:49.360
<v Speaker 2>in Chicago is the Democratic National Convention. They're basically always

0:37:49.360 --> 0:37:52.600
<v Speaker 2>protests at these conventions to me, and I'm a little

0:37:52.600 --> 0:37:54.640
<v Speaker 2>bit out of touch with it. There's going to be

0:37:54.640 --> 0:37:58.319
<v Speaker 2>more this year, Yeah, that's what I'm thinking there certainly will,

0:37:58.320 --> 0:38:01.120
<v Speaker 2>I think, especially at the DNC. I don't have much

0:38:01.120 --> 0:38:05.400
<v Speaker 2>to say on this at this point besides read up

0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:07.319
<v Speaker 2>on the previous ones that have happened. You can go

0:38:07.360 --> 0:38:08.920
<v Speaker 2>all the way back to sixty eight if you want

0:38:08.920 --> 0:38:12.600
<v Speaker 2>to read about Chicago and the DNC, but also like

0:38:12.960 --> 0:38:16.000
<v Speaker 2>the RNC protests from the Iraq War era, I think

0:38:16.040 --> 0:38:19.120
<v Speaker 2>would be verally useful to look at. If you want

0:38:19.120 --> 0:38:20.640
<v Speaker 2>to go back to like two thousand and eight and

0:38:20.680 --> 0:38:24.080
<v Speaker 2>see how those protests were, I would just recommend reading

0:38:24.160 --> 0:38:25.520
<v Speaker 2>up on it. I don't really have much else to

0:38:25.520 --> 0:38:27.560
<v Speaker 2>say on those in the moment. They're too far out

0:38:28.040 --> 0:38:29.120
<v Speaker 2>totally to forecast.

0:38:30.280 --> 0:38:31.399
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and I.

0:38:31.480 --> 0:38:35.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's kind of all I'll say at the moment.

0:38:35.960 --> 0:38:40.839
<v Speaker 3>These will become recurring topics on this podcast the next

0:38:40.880 --> 0:38:41.320
<v Speaker 3>few months.

0:38:41.560 --> 0:38:45.520
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, And so keep track of what's happening and

0:38:45.600 --> 0:38:48.839
<v Speaker 2>get ready to go to what you feel comfortable with,

0:38:49.000 --> 0:38:53.399
<v Speaker 2>and don't be afraid to be brave, but don't let

0:38:53.440 --> 0:38:56.200
<v Speaker 2>anyone trick you into doing stuff that you're not comfortable with.

0:38:56.800 --> 0:38:59.919
<v Speaker 2>But we need you. We're glad you're here.

0:39:00.920 --> 0:39:01.920
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, don't be.

0:39:03.360 --> 0:39:06.600
<v Speaker 3>So down that the school year is over and these

0:39:06.640 --> 0:39:08.640
<v Speaker 3>campus protests only had a few weeks to live. I

0:39:09.000 --> 0:39:11.759
<v Speaker 3>know there were certainly people who were really hoping that

0:39:11.880 --> 0:39:14.600
<v Speaker 3>after we saw you know, what happened during April and May,

0:39:14.640 --> 0:39:17.919
<v Speaker 3>that maybe this would you know, trigger things happening off

0:39:17.960 --> 0:39:19.160
<v Speaker 3>campus around the summer.

0:39:19.200 --> 0:39:20.640
<v Speaker 4>And maybe they still will.

0:39:20.840 --> 0:39:22.120
<v Speaker 3>And at the very least, we have a lot of

0:39:22.120 --> 0:39:26.800
<v Speaker 3>young people listener, possibly included, who like experienced their first

0:39:27.080 --> 0:39:31.719
<v Speaker 3>example of like actual state violence like on them, and

0:39:31.760 --> 0:39:35.040
<v Speaker 3>that can be a very radicalizing experience. So yeah, don't

0:39:35.120 --> 0:39:38.320
<v Speaker 3>don't be so down that maybe your occupation didn't go

0:39:38.360 --> 0:39:40.320
<v Speaker 3>as well as you wanted to. Maybe you're protested, and

0:39:40.840 --> 0:39:42.719
<v Speaker 3>but I think there's a lot of lessons to learn

0:39:42.800 --> 0:39:46.360
<v Speaker 3>from what happened the past month, and they will become applicable,

0:39:46.840 --> 0:39:49.520
<v Speaker 3>possibly this summer, possibly two years from now, who knows.

0:39:49.560 --> 0:39:54.000
<v Speaker 3>Like it's hard to say, but yeah, it's whenever you

0:39:54.000 --> 0:39:56.080
<v Speaker 3>get that first hint of tear gas, you kind of

0:39:56.080 --> 0:39:59.360
<v Speaker 3>become a different person, in my opinion, So congratulations to

0:39:59.400 --> 0:40:01.879
<v Speaker 3>everyone who that hopefully didn't get arrested, and if you did,

0:40:02.160 --> 0:40:04.200
<v Speaker 3>hopefully you have a jail support crew that is helping

0:40:04.239 --> 0:40:04.920
<v Speaker 3>you out.

0:40:05.719 --> 0:40:08.040
<v Speaker 2>The other thing that I think that people never really

0:40:09.440 --> 0:40:12.400
<v Speaker 2>recover from isn't the right word. The first time you

0:40:12.440 --> 0:40:17.759
<v Speaker 2>see the police retreat totally, you recognize that this thing

0:40:17.840 --> 0:40:20.919
<v Speaker 2>you have been taught is completely unassailable. The reason they're

0:40:20.920 --> 0:40:23.840
<v Speaker 2>building cop cities is they know they are assailable and

0:40:23.880 --> 0:40:28.200
<v Speaker 2>they want to be less. So well, listen to this podcast,

0:40:28.239 --> 0:40:31.000
<v Speaker 2>and that's the only place you'll ever find anything useful.

0:40:31.120 --> 0:40:31.640
<v Speaker 2>That's the fine.

0:40:31.719 --> 0:40:33.080
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't say that.

0:40:33.480 --> 0:40:38.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I know, But there are other podcasts that There's

0:40:38.200 --> 0:40:39.879
<v Speaker 3>a lot of books, there's a lot of zines, there's

0:40:39.880 --> 0:40:43.279
<v Speaker 3>a lot of sketchy noblog sites which may sometimes have

0:40:43.320 --> 0:40:47.080
<v Speaker 3>misinformation and sometimes have good information yay. And you could

0:40:47.280 --> 0:40:51.320
<v Speaker 3>certainly certainly check out Margaret. I've heard that you you yourself,

0:40:51.360 --> 0:40:54.920
<v Speaker 3>had a few other podcasts what I do, well, if

0:40:54.920 --> 0:40:56.719
<v Speaker 3>you want to hear a lot of the history around

0:40:56.760 --> 0:40:58.480
<v Speaker 3>some of the stuff we talked about, including like the

0:40:58.480 --> 0:40:59.440
<v Speaker 3>co Intel pro stuff.

0:40:59.440 --> 0:41:01.960
<v Speaker 2>For example, I run a podcast called Cool People Who

0:41:02.000 --> 0:41:05.080
<v Speaker 2>Did Cool Stuff on this very network cool Zone Media.

0:41:05.760 --> 0:41:08.640
<v Speaker 2>And you can listen to it every Monday and Wednesday.

0:41:08.719 --> 0:41:12.240
<v Speaker 2>I just finished a very long, but I swear entertaining

0:41:12.520 --> 0:41:16.080
<v Speaker 2>series of episodes about the Russian Revolution in the Civil War.

0:41:16.719 --> 0:41:21.160
<v Speaker 2>I've did an episode about the Burglars for Peace who

0:41:21.200 --> 0:41:24.480
<v Speaker 2>exposed co intel pro by robbing an FBI office in

0:41:24.480 --> 0:41:27.000
<v Speaker 2>the middle of the night in the early seventies, and

0:41:27.640 --> 0:41:30.600
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of other stories, so you can listen to

0:41:30.640 --> 0:41:32.960
<v Speaker 2>that or if you want to know more about the

0:41:33.040 --> 0:41:35.160
<v Speaker 2>end of the world. I help run a podcast called

0:41:35.400 --> 0:41:37.920
<v Speaker 2>Live Like the World Is Dying, comes out every Friday,

0:41:38.239 --> 0:41:43.960
<v Speaker 2>and that one is Prepper Butt Community. Yep.

0:41:44.200 --> 0:41:44.680
<v Speaker 4>There, well go.

0:41:45.040 --> 0:41:47.000
<v Speaker 2>And I have a book coming out. It comes out

0:41:47.000 --> 0:41:48.840
<v Speaker 2>of September. It's called The Sapling Cage and it's going

0:41:48.920 --> 0:41:50.920
<v Speaker 2>to be kickstarted in June, and if you go to

0:41:51.040 --> 0:41:53.239
<v Speaker 2>Kickstarter you can sign up for announcements about that. And

0:41:53.280 --> 0:41:54.920
<v Speaker 2>it is the best book I've ever written, so you

0:41:54.960 --> 0:41:55.640
<v Speaker 2>all should read it.

0:41:56.280 --> 0:41:58.719
<v Speaker 3>Very excited to see that. That does it for us,

0:41:58.719 --> 0:42:01.560
<v Speaker 3>that itch could happen here. We will probably see you

0:42:01.600 --> 0:42:01.920
<v Speaker 3>out there.

0:42:02.000 --> 0:42:02.439
<v Speaker 4>Good luck.

0:42:08.120 --> 0:42:10.520
<v Speaker 1>It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

0:42:10.719 --> 0:42:13.400
<v Speaker 1>For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website.

0:42:13.440 --> 0:42:16.560
<v Speaker 1>Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

0:42:16.600 --> 0:42:19.759
<v Speaker 1>Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can

0:42:19.800 --> 0:42:22.440
<v Speaker 1>find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at

0:42:22.520 --> 0:42:25.760
<v Speaker 1>coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.