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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast

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Speaker 2: about things falling apart and how we try to put

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Speaker 2: them back together again. I'm your guest host, Margaret Kiljoy,

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Speaker 2: and with me this week is one of your regular hosts.

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Speaker 2: Here higare Hello. This week is one of those putting

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Speaker 2: things back together episodes. The premise of this episode is simple.

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Speaker 2: Let's say you're newly radicalized. Maybe you were participant in

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Speaker 2: the occupations and now the school year is over, or

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Speaker 2: you got expelled and you're wondering what the next steps are.

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Speaker 2: This won't be an all in one guide to how

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Speaker 2: to become an activist, but it's sort of a sketch

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Speaker 2: of one. It's also not quite a complete Summer twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty four guide to protests, but there's some of that

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Speaker 2: in here too. It's a magpie's guide to getting started

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Speaker 2: in activism. I want to start with my own biases

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Speaker 2: up front, because it's going to inform everything that I

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Speaker 2: have to say about all of this. I'm an anarchist.

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Speaker 2: It's also been decades since I've broke into the movement.

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Speaker 2: I've been doing this stuff since two thousand and two,

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Speaker 2: when I dropped out of college to join the ultra

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Speaker 2: globalization movement. So I have biases towards things like dropping

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Speaker 2: out of college because it worked for me, and I

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Speaker 2: have You know, a lot of my experience isn't recent,

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Speaker 2: at least my direct experience personally, but I've been watching

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Speaker 2: people come into the movement for a very long time.

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Speaker 2: I also have biases against authoritarian organizing and electoral organizing,

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Speaker 2: and biases towards direct action and autonomy as models for

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Speaker 2: radical social change. I believe this is how you build

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Speaker 2: a freer and better world by practicing freedom along the way.

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Speaker 2: But you can adapt this to suit your own interests.

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Speaker 2: That's not to say I have any interest in guiding

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Speaker 2: people towards specific paths, specific actions, specific issues and movements.

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Speaker 2: Exactly the opposite. This is my attempt to kind of

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Speaker 2: give a big picture view of how one might get

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Speaker 2: involved right now. I don't know if you knew this gear.

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Speaker 2: The world's kind of in trouble.

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Speaker 3: I have heard this before. I have heard this said, Yeah, do.

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Speaker 2: You ever think about how your job is to be

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Speaker 2: a professional chicken little?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? Sometimes I guess so. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm definitely in the dredges trying to find

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Speaker 3: what horrible things are always happening?

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Speaker 2: Certainly, Yeah, I would say even though the world is

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Speaker 2: always in serious trouble, it's like extra in serious trouble

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Speaker 2: right now, and we are in desperate need of people

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Speaker 2: who dedicate their time, whether part of it or all

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Speaker 2: of it, to trying to stop the terrible things that

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Speaker 2: are happening and trying to build beautiful things and beautiful alternatives.

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Speaker 2: So how do you get started? I want you to

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Speaker 2: think about a couple different things that are separate from

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Speaker 2: each other. I want you to think about This isn't

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Speaker 2: necessarily you gere, although you could if you want, sure,

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Speaker 2: why not?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: What do you care about? Like what issues are specifically

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Speaker 2: important to you? It's the first thing to think about.

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Speaker 2: The second is what do you want to do about it?

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Speaker 2: And if you have a sense of that, and like

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Speaker 2: also kind of how far you're willing to go. If

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Speaker 2: you get a sense of those things before you throw

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Speaker 2: yourself into the fight, you're going to start off strong.

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Speaker 2: Those things can change, they will change over time, but

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Speaker 2: getting a sense of those ahead of time is a

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Speaker 2: good way to figure out which door you want to

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Speaker 2: go in, and then also to avoid some of the

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Speaker 2: dangers that lie on the other side of any given door.

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Speaker 2: What do you care about? What movements and projects speak

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Speaker 2: loudest to you? A ton of causes are interconnected, of course,

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Speaker 2: right the fight for Palestinian liberation is not at its

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Speaker 2: core a separate project than the fight against policing in

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Speaker 2: the United States, for example, the rise of a global

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Speaker 2: police state is everyone's problem, and so is the US

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Speaker 2: and Zionist imperial project. Causes are interconnected, but you can

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Speaker 2: rarely start by trying to fix everything. Usually got to

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Speaker 2: pick somewhere to start working. You don't climb a mountain

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Speaker 2: by just willing yourself to the top. You climate by

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Speaker 2: picking a place and then starting to climate. Maybe you're

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Speaker 2: concerned about the police state or surveillance, or the erosion

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Speaker 2: of rights, or Palestinian liberation, or fighting for prisoners in

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Speaker 2: the US to still have access to books, or for

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Speaker 2: LGBT rights, or for migrants at the border, or for

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Speaker 2: the protection of the remaining national ecosystems and stopping the

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Speaker 2: expansion of fossil fuel infrastructure. Maybe you're concerned about something

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Speaker 2: hyper local, like the destruction of a local park or

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Speaker 2: the sweeping of homeless encampments. Maybe it's something a bit

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Speaker 2: broader and more abstract, like you want to get involved

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Speaker 2: in explaining the need for police abolition, but there's something,

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Speaker 2: there's something that you want to change. As a place

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Speaker 2: to start, the second question is what do you want

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Speaker 2: to do? There's multiple questions embedded in this. There's how

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Speaker 2: far are you willing to go? We'll talk more of

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Speaker 2: that later, more immediately, what is your skill set or

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Speaker 2: what skill sets do you wish you had? Like a

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Speaker 2: lot of times I'll just be like, oh, hey, what

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Speaker 2: are you good at? And now'll go do that? But

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Speaker 2: sometimes like what you're good at that isn't what you

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Speaker 2: want to be doing. And it's also totally okay to

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Speaker 2: be like, well what do I want to be good at?

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Speaker 2: Like what do I want to be trying to focus

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Speaker 2: on what do you have to offer the revolution or

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Speaker 2: what do you wish you had to offer? Are you

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Speaker 2: in med school or have other first aid or medical experience.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you want to plug in with your local street medics.

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Speaker 2: Are you studying law? Movement lawyers need paralegal help, and

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Speaker 2: there are groups that use volunteers to get people out

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Speaker 2: of jail or through difficult court cases. If graphic design

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Speaker 2: is your passion. This is me referencing a meme from

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Speaker 2: a million years ago and totally winning people over. Every

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Speaker 2: group that exists needs help with their flyers or Instagram

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Speaker 2: slideshows or whatever the fuck that is certainly the case. Yeah. No,

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Speaker 2: it's funny too, right, because it's like it's one of

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Speaker 2: those things where if you do graphic design, you sort

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Speaker 2: of think like, oh, everyone sort of does this or whatever, right,

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Speaker 2: and then I've been part of groups where people are like,

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Speaker 2: no one knows how to do this at all, and

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Speaker 2: everything is that we make as garbage, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, although there is actually a care full needle to

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Speaker 3: thread in this vein, because if you've had enough experience,

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Speaker 3: you can kind of figure out what type of action

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Speaker 3: it's gonna be based on how well designed and the flyer.

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Speaker 2: Is, yeah, and which way. If it's kind of corporate

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Speaker 2: well designed, it's like gonna tie into electoral politics and

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Speaker 2: be born. But if it's hip and well designed, it's

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Speaker 2: a riot.

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes there's sometimes there's some like very like well designed

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Speaker 3: flyers that are not like very electoral, but they're like, okay,

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Speaker 3: this will be a marge, will be some speeches. We'll

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Speaker 3: kind of walk around a little bit because it's like

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Speaker 3: a very well polataild flyer versus when you have like

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Speaker 3: a white background of big block attacks, maybe one poorly

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Speaker 3: cropped picture, you're like, okay, this is obviously a riot flyer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, okay.

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Speaker 3: It takes a degree of subtlety to get the instinctal

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Speaker 3: difference when you're looking at a collection of flyers that

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Speaker 3: are going out.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 4: See.

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Speaker 2: This is interesting to me because in like about fifteen

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Speaker 2: years ago, the people throwing the best riots were like

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Speaker 2: a bunch of graphic designers, and so it was the

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Speaker 2: specific h yeah, okay, okay, well you know, and actually,

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Speaker 2: as a good graphic designer knows the language that they

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Speaker 2: are speaking with and is what they're communicating, So that

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Speaker 2: might be what you want to do is get involved

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Speaker 2: in making the flyers. If you spend all day on Twitter.

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Speaker 2: A lot of activist groups can't find someone to run

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Speaker 2: their social media, or they have people who run it

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Speaker 2: very badly. Sometimes being an extrovert is a superpower. Building

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Speaker 2: strong movements means building strong communities, and every meeting and

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Speaker 2: party needs someone willing to introduce themselves to the new

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Speaker 2: people and help them figure out where to go. The

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Speaker 2: best activist meetings I've ever been to have like someone

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Speaker 2: who's there to sit next to new people and explain

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Speaker 2: what's going on. Also, if you can plan a party,

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Speaker 2: you can plan a benefit show to money for bail funds.

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Speaker 2: There's kind of this like like whenever I talk about this, like, oh,

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Speaker 2: everyone has their place and people are like, why don't

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Speaker 2: I'm a fucking bookkeeper, and I'm like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: we need you, or like, you know, all kinds of

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Speaker 2: different skill sets that people like don't think apply actually

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Speaker 2: do project manager. Yeah, we're we're not all instinctively good

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Speaker 2: at that, you know. And so the quickest way to

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Speaker 2: sum this part of it up is you think about

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Speaker 2: what's wrong, and you think about what you're good at,

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Speaker 2: and then you get together with other people and apply

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Speaker 2: what you're good at to stopping what's wrong. That is

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Speaker 2: the like one sentence version of how to start getting

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Speaker 2: involved in making the world better. But the last part

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Speaker 2: of it that I want the like question of it

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Speaker 2: beforehand is risk analysis. It is very easy to get

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Speaker 2: swept up in the moment and go beyond your comfort

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Speaker 2: zone in terms of risk in a lot of different environments.

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Speaker 2: The more you have sorted out ahead of time about

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Speaker 2: what kinds of actions you're comfortable with strategically, morally, and personally.

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Speaker 2: The easier it is to stick to your decisions when

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Speaker 2: things get hard. For example, you might tell yourself, I

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Speaker 2: will risk arrest, but I will not get arrested on

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Speaker 2: purpose because I have a massage license I don't want

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Speaker 2: to lose, or I have kids at home, or I'm undocumented,

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Speaker 2: or I don't like the idea of jail. Whatever your

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Speaker 2: reason is, there's plenty of reasons to make that decision.

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Speaker 2: You might be willing to risk arrest, like be in

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Speaker 2: a hectic riot, but you're not willing to lock your

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Speaker 2: neck to a bulldozer. So when you go to the

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Speaker 2: planning meeting for the lock your neck to a bulldozer

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Speaker 2: action and you're trying to figure out who wants to

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Speaker 2: lock their neck to the bulldozer, you've already made up

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Speaker 2: your mind and you're less likely to kind of pressure

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Speaker 2: yourself into volunteering.

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Speaker 4: Or feel pressured by others.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm imagining the positive version. Well, okay, because it's

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Speaker 2: very rarely someone's like, hey, gear been a while since

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Speaker 2: you locked your neck to anything, and it's usually more

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Speaker 2: like man, it just sure would be good if someone

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Speaker 2: was bold and noble enough to just step up right

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Speaker 2: now now and then yeah yeah, yeah. I mean I've

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Speaker 2: organized some of my friends arrests before, and it's it's

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Speaker 2: not always that's not always the strategy that people want

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Speaker 2: to be doing. Anyway, I'm just using this as an example,

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Speaker 2: like a kind of Earth First style thing. If you

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Speaker 2: know what your risk models are, you can make better decisions.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you're fine with a spirited march, but as soon

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Speaker 2: as windows start getting broken, you're like, you know, I

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Speaker 2: want to leave. That's going to not be my scene.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm not mad that the people did it,

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Speaker 2: but it's not what I am willing to get arrested

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Speaker 2: in response to. It's also important to know your risk levels,

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Speaker 2: which kind of course shift because there are predators in

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Speaker 2: the ranks of direct action activists. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: you knew this, gre there's a shadowy, unaccountable group that

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Speaker 2: tries to get people to break laws. They're called the FEDS.

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Speaker 2: They're called the FBI. They have a history going back

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Speaker 2: decades and then trapping people by coming up with bomb

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Speaker 2: plots or ars and plots or whatever. And we're not

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Speaker 2: going to go into this in depth in this episode,

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Speaker 2: but if you want to do more research, people should

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Speaker 2: look up They should read about cointel pro it's an acronym,

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Speaker 2: or read about the case of Eric McDavid, or read

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Speaker 2: about how the FBI set up Muslim Americans in the

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Speaker 2: wake of nine to eleven. But another thing you should

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Speaker 2: go into all this knowing is that that doesn't mean

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Speaker 2: that everyone who wants to do those kinds of actions

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Speaker 2: is working with the Feds.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you shouldn't go around accusing everyone you don't

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Speaker 3: like of possibly being a secret and federal agent.

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Speaker 2: Because you know who likes accusing people of being federal agents.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And also our sponsors they don't, they don't. They're all great.

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Speaker 2: They might, they might, I don't know. I can't really

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Speaker 2: speak to them, but here they are, they can speak

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Speaker 2: to you, and we're back. That is a thing that

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Speaker 2: is absolutely worth anyone who's getting involved in activism, especially

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Speaker 2: direct action activism, including above grounds some of this obedient

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Speaker 2: style action. It is really worth understanding the ways in

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Speaker 2: which federal oppression works, and how federal oppression works often

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Speaker 2: by the fear of federal oppression and getting people to

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Speaker 2: spread paranoia and so as a general rule, The way

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Speaker 2: that I've always heard it talked about is that it's

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Speaker 2: like you never want to be like, hey, I think

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Speaker 2: that guy's a fed. Instead you're like, hey, guy, that

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Speaker 2: kind of behavior is disruptive and leads towards bad things,

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Speaker 2: you know, Like yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I think I even have some hesitation to just

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Speaker 3: be like you should just just go google co intel

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Speaker 3: pro and learn all about it, because I feel like

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Speaker 3: that can also lead to someone kind of falling down

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Speaker 3: like some conspiracy brained rabbit holes, and like, I've gotten

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Speaker 3: the best information by just talking to older people who've

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Speaker 3: been in the movement for a while, and like just

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Speaker 3: like if someone had like over ten years of experience

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Speaker 3: and they're like, you can learn a lot about what

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Speaker 3: has happened before through just like actual, like in person conversations.

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Speaker 3: And I have found that to be much more useful

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Speaker 3: than just like going down like a Google rabbit hole,

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Speaker 3: because that can just kind of lead to I think

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Speaker 3: slightly even slightly more like paranoid thinking or just it

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Speaker 3: just becomes like less applicable than like, hey, you have

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Speaker 3: like a friend of a friend who's like done this

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Speaker 3: for a while, and you just ask, hey, like what

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Speaker 3: if what do you know about this sort of thing?

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Speaker 3: Now you're right, what are your experiences of kind of

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Speaker 3: of facing like repression in the past. The true chances

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Speaker 3: are some of them will probably know people who've either

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Speaker 3: turned out to be like informants, has started informing or

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Speaker 3: were we're bad actors from the from the get go,

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Speaker 3: like it's it does, it does happen. And there's even

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Speaker 3: been case it's not even just like stuff from ten

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Speaker 3: fifteen years ago. There's a lot of that stuff post

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty. Some really some stuff in in Chicago, some

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Speaker 3: stuff in Colorado Springs have gotten decent news coverage. I

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Speaker 3: think you can also you can look to articles specifically

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Speaker 3: of the Colorado Springs infiltration that the FBI was running

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Speaker 3: around twenty twenty. I think that's a really useful case

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Speaker 3: study for a more recent version as opposed to like

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Speaker 3: the green scare stuff from at this point like twenty

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Speaker 3: years ago.

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Speaker 2: No, No, it's true, and there's a good there's actually

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Speaker 2: a good podcast series where I liked it called Alphabet Boys.

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Speaker 2: The first season is about that case. No, that's a

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Speaker 2: good point that you that random internet search is not

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Speaker 2: the way to get this kind of information. This information,

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Speaker 2: like you'll Honestly, it's kind of funny. I would trust

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Speaker 2: a random zine in a radical bookstore far more than

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Speaker 2: I would trust a Google search result. Agreed, which is

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Speaker 2: not true for everything like healthcare. Well, you're gonna get

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Speaker 2: shit answers no matter what if you do that. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: the internet is gonna tell you of cancer and the

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Speaker 2: zine's gonna tell you that t tre oil will fix it.

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Speaker 4: Yes, there we go.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, that is actually a very good point,

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Speaker 2: and it is the kind of thing that yeah, the

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Speaker 2: longer you're involved, the more you're just like, oh yeah, yeh,

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Speaker 2: the you know my ex who's a snitch that sucks?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, now you have what you care about, what your

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Speaker 2: skills are in your risk analysis, it's time to get started.

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Speaker 2: How there's two basic ways, and they're not really a dichotomy.

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Speaker 2: But you can plug into something that exists and you

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Speaker 2: can start something of your own, and both are valid

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Speaker 2: and both have advantages and disadvantages. There are structures and

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Speaker 2: movements that are already in place that are desperate for

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Speaker 2: your help. There's a catch. Many, not all, but many

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Speaker 2: of the more reasonable groups are challenging to break into.

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Speaker 2: Very few groups have a truly open door policy, and

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Speaker 2: those that do honestly sometimes or suspect. Yeah, some of

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Speaker 2: those people are just trying to use you. They're trying

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Speaker 2: to suck you into a political political cult, or use

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Speaker 2: your energy and burn you out for some vaguely progressive

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Speaker 2: politician or activist cause. Oh. Either way, you're going to

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Speaker 2: need to exercise some common sense and do some reading

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Speaker 2: and research about what you're getting into. The best publicly

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Speaker 2: accessible groups and movements are the ones that are organized

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Speaker 2: from the bottom up, because the participants themselves have a

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Speaker 2: say in what's happening. There is less ability to be

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Speaker 2: sucked into a cult and used. That's not to say

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Speaker 2: it's impossible, and there are such things as decentralized cults

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Speaker 2: that don't do any you know.

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Speaker 4: Many such cases.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I know it's easy and convenient to join

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Speaker 2: a group that'll just tell you what to do. It's

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Speaker 2: very nice to imagine that there's benevolent people who will

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Speaker 2: just do the hard part of making decisions and you

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Speaker 2: can just show up and clock in and listen to

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Speaker 2: what they have to say and make the world a

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Speaker 2: better place. This is rarely, if ever the case, I

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Speaker 2: can't point to examples of it being the case. Movements

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Speaker 2: that maintain everyone's autonomy. Instead, I think are what are interesting,

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Speaker 2: and they often do it by not being a group

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Speaker 2: at all, just a movement. The uprisings of twenty twenty,

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Speaker 2: I think are a a brilliant example of this. There's

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Speaker 2: not the group that organized no, And.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of smaller, smaller groups, whether that be

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Speaker 3: some like informal organizations, formal organizations, or just like groups

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Speaker 3: of friends that it was. It's made up of a

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Speaker 3: whole bunch of these smaller groups. And I think a lot,

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Speaker 3: a lot of times the best case scenario in many

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Speaker 3: cases is if you have like a friend or too,

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Speaker 3: because you shouldn't really showed things alone. I would say,

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Speaker 3: but if you have a friend or two, go with

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Speaker 3: the friender too, just like just go to things. And

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Speaker 3: if you go to enough things and people see you,

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Speaker 3: you can chat with people, you can start learning more

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Speaker 3: about kind of what the different mechanisms in each different city,

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Speaker 3: and each each even't seen how how they operate. It's

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Speaker 3: it's kind of silly just to be like no, you

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Speaker 3: just like have to like show up. But like that

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Speaker 3: is kind of a lot of how it works. You'll

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Speaker 3: maybe hear about a Instagram account that posts flyers for

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Speaker 3: semi weekly like picnics organized by some of these same people,

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Speaker 3: and then you can go to events like that and

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Speaker 3: learn to like soci And it really just does require

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Speaker 3: a degree of just showing up. And you shouldn't go

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Speaker 3: by yourself. You should if you you should ideally have

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Speaker 3: a friend or too that you that is that they

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Speaker 3: would be okay going with you. But then you'll you'll

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Speaker 3: find people to connect with and you'll kind of maybe

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Speaker 3: find a different group of people that you want to

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Speaker 3: start hanging out with more. I think in general that's

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Speaker 3: kind of how the best case scenario works, as opposed

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Speaker 3: to like joining like a big above ground organization which

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Speaker 3: is just going to use your body as a tool

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Speaker 3: to get arrested as or just treat you as disposable

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Speaker 3: or in other cases just be actually kind of like abuse.

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Speaker 2: Of I agree with that, and that's some of that

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Speaker 2: we're going to get into also. But yeah, no, and

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Speaker 2: I will say overall, absolutely it is better to do

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Speaker 2: those things with friends. I didn't I started going to

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Speaker 2: things alone. That has something to do with my temperament,

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Speaker 2: and that has something to do with my social standing

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Speaker 2: when I was in college and decided to get involved

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Speaker 2: in the movement. But overall, that is the best practice.

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Speaker 2: But if you're listening to this and you're like, I

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Speaker 2: don't have friends I can go do this stuff with,

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Speaker 2: there are more risks involved, and you're also kind of stuck.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna go to a lot of things where no

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Speaker 2: one will talk to you, yeah, you know, and you

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Speaker 2: can't necessarily expect that people talk to you immediately or like,

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Speaker 2: and you're gonna have to be a little bit more

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Speaker 2: self motivated.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and if you're going to a zine fair, you

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Speaker 3: can chow some people at like the tables. When you're

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Speaker 3: looking for a zine, it's like it's, yeah, now everyone's

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Speaker 3: gonna want to get into a deep personal conversation with

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Speaker 3: a stranger they met at at an event like this,

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Speaker 3: because it also has like security risks. But yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's it's going to require a little bit of uncomfortable

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Speaker 3: social interactions, which for yeah, for someone like you or

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Speaker 3: me who did go to a lot of these things

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Speaker 3: just by ourselves.

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Speaker 4: You know, it just it just kind of.

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Speaker 2: Takes more time, No, totally, And I think actually zine

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Speaker 2: fairs and things like that, and anarchist book fairs and

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Speaker 2: all that are like really good examples of places that

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Speaker 2: are publicly facing that are designed for people to interact

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Speaker 2: with each other. And also, like one of the main

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Speaker 2: pieces of advice that we have is be brave, right,

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Speaker 2: and we talk about that in terms of like street actions.

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Speaker 2: But like, yeah, okay, also social anxiety exactly exactly because

401
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,639
Speaker 2: how much of so social anxiety will become like an

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Speaker 2: inhibiting factor, similar to like the state. Not saying those

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Speaker 2: things are equal, but they can both like inhibit you

404
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Speaker 2: from doing things, and it's both you can you can

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Speaker 2: kind of approach it via similar means of trying to

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Speaker 2: like overcome this thing that is limiting your autonomy. Yeah, no, totally.

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Speaker 2: So to go back to, if you're joining an existing group,

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Speaker 2: some groups maintain everyone's autonomy by being structured horizontally. Some

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Speaker 2: groups that exist as a structure will do it by

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Speaker 2: being structured horizontally. If you found yourself for go ahead,

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Speaker 2: claim to be structured horizontally as well. No, it's true,

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Speaker 2: but like like if you join a local Earth first chapter,

413
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Speaker 2: you're going to find there's absolutely informal hierarchies that exist

414
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Speaker 2: within these things, and they're like worth being aware of.

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Speaker 2: But the decision about who's to lock their neck to

416
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Speaker 2: the bulldozer is going to involve everyone who might lock

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Speaker 2: their neck to the bulldozer.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not the same as like the DSA or

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Speaker 3: the PSL like it's it's going to be a very

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Speaker 3: a very different, uh organizational structure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And so you know, you want to be

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Speaker 2: part of the decision making about locking your neck to

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Speaker 2: a bulldozer because it's your neck on the line. That's

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Speaker 2: my best joke in the whole script. I'm sorry, we'll

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Speaker 2: just move past it quickly. Thanks. Plugging into an existing

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00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 2: project is often the good first step. What I did

427
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,879
Speaker 2: personally I started showing up to the meetings of this

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Speaker 2: radical media project, Indie Media. I had film skills, and

429
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Speaker 2: soon enough I found myself in the film collective. I

430
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Speaker 2: spent a year or two bouncing around from demonstration to demonstration,

431
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Speaker 2: coordinating with all the radical videographers to collect everyone's footage

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Speaker 2: and edit together news of its about what had happened.

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Speaker 2: While we collectively fostered a culture of like respectful riot videography.

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Speaker 4: I did not realize we had that similar background.

435
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, that it's interesting because I don't I

436
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 2: don't do that stuff anymore. But that was like my

437
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:16,639
Speaker 2: thing for a long time.

438
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 3: Me either, actually, But no, I did not realize we

439
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 3: had we had that. Uh we had that Overlapp.

440
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, and it was it was great and it

441
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,879
Speaker 2: was fun and we you know, we taught how to

442
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,120
Speaker 2: not film people's faces. We coordinated runners where in order

443
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,439
Speaker 2: to get footage out before the cops could get it.

444
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 2: We'd make sure everyone, you know, someone, every videographer had

445
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,919
Speaker 2: someone next to them, like ready to run out of

446
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 2: the situation.

447
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,359
Speaker 4: Take this SD card and run yep, exactly.

448
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,119
Speaker 2: And I started off by joining an existing group that

449
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:49,919
Speaker 2: was doing this, but within a few months I was

450
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 2: doing it independently and coordinating with different groups that came

451
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 2: together at all these different summit protests because I was

452
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 2: a known entity to people. You know, it was fun.

453
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 2: I dropped out of school where I've been studying film

454
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 2: and photography, and even before I would have graduated, a

455
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,360
Speaker 2: film I had edited sold out a movie theater in Portland.

456
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 2: We didn't have YouTube, so we organized in person.

457
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 3: Kate, that makes sense, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

458
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 2: When when we shut the city down on like March

459
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 2: twentieth or whatever, twenty two thousand and three, for to

460
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 2: try and stop the Iraq war. I like didn't sleep

461
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 2: and just edited everyone's film footage together and made a

462
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,959
Speaker 2: like thirty minute documentary about the day of protest and

463
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 2: sold out a movie theater and I was like, damn,

464
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 2: this was way better for my career than going to

465
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 2: fuck it, staying at school. I mean, like, my name

466
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,680
Speaker 2: isn't on it, but that like didn't matter to me. Sure,

467
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 2: And then everyone the local news media got really mad

468
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 2: because I didn't include the stuff that could have been

469
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 2: used in people's court cases, like the time that people

470
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 2: attacked cops on the bridge, because I was like, nope,

471
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 2: that's too recent. We don't know what's happening there anyway.

472
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 2: And get into certain types of groups is kind of

473
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 2: like applying for a shitty job. A job that'll take

474
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,400
Speaker 2: you without reference is going to treat you like shit.

475
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 2: But jobs that are worth having require you to somehow

476
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 2: have already been doing the job before you got hired,

477
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 2: And once people know who you are, it's easier to

478
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 2: find folks who work with And I think gear suggestions

479
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 2: is like the main way you go about that is

480
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 2: you don't necessarily show up to organize. You just show

481
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 2: up to participate. You show up to talks, you show

482
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 2: up to radical bookstores and public events and zine fairs

483
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 2: and protests and whatever interests you you know, And I

484
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 2: would say that if you're going to actions and you're new,

485
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 2: remember to be both brave and cautious. If you tend

486
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 2: towards recklessness and being swept into things, maybe make sure

487
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 2: you take less of a frontline's role until you get

488
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 2: your legs underneath you. But it really is okay to

489
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 2: be brave. I think we're asked by the times we

490
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 2: live in to be brave, and sometimes we're going to

491
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 2: have to step outside of our comfort zone. We should

492
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 2: just always look to make sure it's us encouraging us

493
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 2: to step outside of our comfort zone instead of political

494
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 2: actors whatever political ideology they call themselves.

495
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 3: And also if you can another another collective that people

496
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 3: you know, these are like usually like medic collectives will

497
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 3: maybe maybe we'll have like a radical media collective and

498
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 3: another another one will be a jail support collective is

499
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 3: very common a lot of cities, and not even if

500
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 3: you don't want to take part in that, if you

501
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:18,880
Speaker 3: can at least get in touch with them to fill

502
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 3: out a jail support form before going to things that

503
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 3: will also be useful in case you do end up

504
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 3: getting arrested, so people can actually find you in the

505
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 3: system and help you get out of get out. Just

506
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 3: another another quick tip, I suppose.

507
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And if you want more quick tips, I've got

508
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 2: some for you right now and we're back. Don't do

509
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 2: anything that you just got told by voices that aren't

510
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 2: me or there.

511
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,479
Speaker 4: They were trying to sihap you. It is. It is

512
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 4: the yeah.

513
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 2: Yeah. Another way that you might get involved in something

514
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 2: is you Some groups are semi open where you can

515
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 2: contact them and express interest and they might do some

516
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 2: basic screening to make sure you're not like a Nazi

517
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 2: infiltrator or whatever. I'm in the process right now of

518
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: doing that with clinic escorting. It's like funny because i

519
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 2: haven't had to like prove myself to any group in

520
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 2: a long time, right because I'm like I've been around forever.

521
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 2: The clinic escorting group, it's like, we don't fucking know

522
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 2: who you are. And I'm like, yeah, that's fair, give

523
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 2: me that. Yeah, No, absolutely, I live in a place

524
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 2: is not where abortion is not particularly popular with the

525
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 2: right wing, and so I submitted my name and social

526
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: media accounts to the to the abortion clinic escorting place,

527
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: and then we'll go to a training at some point

528
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 2: soon for folks living in southern California or willing to

529
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 2: go there. For example, there are groups that do border solidarity,

530
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 2: working with refugees to make sure they're fed in house.

531
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 2: If you listen to this podcast, you've heard James talking

532
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 2: about this, and this is the first episode you've listened to,

533
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 2: in which case, go back and listen to James talking

534
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 2: about border solidarity work. If you want to show up

535
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 2: and distribute food and water, track border patrol activity, build shelters,

536
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 2: do First DAID, all of that, feel like you're part

537
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 2: of something because you are and are like saving people's

538
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 2: lives directly. That's something you can likely get involved with,

539
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 2: but it's not something you just show up at. There

540
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 2: are a few groups doing that work, any of whom

541
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 2: you can reach out to and express interest. There's Border Kindness,

542
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 2: there's Borderlands Relief Collective and Al Ultra Lado, and there's

543
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 2: other groups like this in different areas. But these are

544
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: the examples where I asked James being like, Hey, how

545
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: do I explain the following concept? In general, you want

546
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 2: to look for groups. If you're looking for groups, to

547
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 2: look for groups that are grassroots and non authoritarian. You

548
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 2: want to watch out for electoral campaigns, and you want

549
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 2: to watch out for nonprofits. This is not to say

550
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 2: that the people doing these things are necessarily bad. There

551
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 2: are local political campaigns that matter, and there are nonprofits

552
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 2: that do good work. Some of the best political work

553
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 2: I ever did was two years out a nonprofit, honestly,

554
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 2: but I was with one of the good ones. And

555
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 2: structurally those systems, even the good ones, are set up

556
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 2: to take advantage of people's energy and then like kind

557
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 2: of profit off of it, right, and to accomplish goals

558
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: that are often tangential to or even counter to the

559
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 2: goals that they claim. For example, both politicians and nonprofits

560
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 2: live off of donations. These donations are easy for them

561
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 2: to get when those groups are seen as necessary, so

562
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 2: a nonprofit has a financial interest in not winning. Some

563
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 2: nonprofits manage to maintain their focus and make themselves work

564
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: to make themselves obsolete, but frankly those are the minority.

565
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 2: You also want to look out for groups that are

566
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: front groups for authoritarian groups attached to communist political parties

567
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier, like the PSL the Party for Socialism

568
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: and Liberation. Generally speaking, these groups will go to protests

569
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 2: and run events primarily as a way to recruit people

570
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 2: into a hierarchical structure. These groups are often trying to

571
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 2: control broader movements that they're involved in. They'll tell people

572
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 2: how they can and can't pro test, and they're trying

573
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: to essentially own movements that were built by others. So

574
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 2: those are things to be careful around. You can also

575
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 2: just not worry about any of that stuff and start

576
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 2: something yourself. It is not the easy mode to get

577
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 2: into the movement by starting your own projects. We're gonna

578
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 2: talk about a ffinity groups later. Actually it was just

579
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 2: the thing that you kind of started to bring up,

580
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 2: But it is very rewarding to start your own projects.

581
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 2: It's like freelancing instead of looking for a job. There's

582
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 2: no gatekeepers to cross, and the only person who's trying

583
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 2: to take advantage of you is you. If you want

584
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: to never not be working another day in your life,

585
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 2: you can freelance or start your own political project. It'll

586
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: be what you think about every hour you're alive in essence,

587
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 2: the idea here is to say, okay, what's wrong and

588
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 2: what are we willing to do about it, and then

589
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 2: get together with your friends and start doing something about it.

590
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: This can look like anything.

591
00:29:58,320 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 4: You could start.

592
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: A mutual aid group, bookstore, an anti fascist jim to

593
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 2: Trained to defend yourself from fascists. Illegal HRT distribution in

594
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 2: band States, a direct action abortion collective, a zine distributor

595
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 2: that goes to shows and parties with free literature about anarchism.

596
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 2: A podcast about how things fall apart and how to

597
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,479
Speaker 2: put them back together again. A click of saboteurs who

598
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 2: attack billboards. A group that draws attention to international movement

599
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 2: prisoners and support them. Like you can do anything, And

600
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 2: that's one of the like things that people. Our society

601
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 2: is designed to tell us that we can't just do

602
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 2: anything we want. There's obviously things that if we do,

603
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 2: we'll get in trouble eventually, but like you know, okay.

604
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 3: Like like if you make a podcast that's too good,

605
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 3: yeah they will, they will turn on you, like Jesus,

606
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 3: yeah exactly. Or if you go around you know, wanting

607
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 3: to destroy construction equipment, right.

608
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 2: Not usually legal. I'm not a lawyer, I can't tell

609
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 2: you whether or not any given bulldozer is illegal to destroy.

610
00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: That is the kind of research you might have to

611
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 2: do on your own. The difference between start something and

612
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 2: enjoining something is often blurry. For example, you can unionize

613
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 2: your workplace. You probably should, but you might want to

614
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: do that in the context of an existing union like

615
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 2: the Industrial Workers of the World or whatever union makes the.

616
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 4: Most so the writer's field of America.

617
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly.

618
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 4: If you have a podcast about how the world's falling apart, Yeah, yeah, exactly.

619
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 2: If you're going to start something above ground, it's worth

620
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 2: looking around and making sure that the need isn't already

621
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 2: being met by someone else already. Sometimes it's better to

622
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: figure out how to help an existing bail fund rather

623
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 2: than start another. But also sometimes it is better to

624
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: start another, Like it's harder for the police to raide,

625
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 2: for example, which didn't used to be an issue when

626
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: you start bail funds, but is now an issue, which

627
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 2: is worth pointing out that like there's no true safety,

628
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: you know, like when we talk about risk analysis, like

629
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 2: running a bail fund is entirely legal and is the

630
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: kind of thing that often is done by the people

631
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 2: who care about a movement and are like not frontlines people, Yeah.

632
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 3: Aren't wanting to do felonies in downtown right Portland or whatever.

633
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, the more successful a movement is the broader. The

634
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: state repression will reach out to the fringes, not the French.

635
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 2: I mean the bail fund isn't the fringe, but the

636
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: less privery. The people who aren't committing the felon felonies. Yeah,

637
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 2: are going to get tagged with felonies anyway, because the

638
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 2: state being repressive is the reason we're fighting it.

639
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 3: They will still get their houses rated. And it's the

640
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 3: same same thing ad demos. You don't need to be

641
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 3: the one breaking windows for the police to tackle you.

642
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 3: Like at a certain point, it actually doesn't. It seems

643
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 3: to matter very little. I mean if things get to trial,

644
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 3: then things you know will maybe matter a bit more.

645
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 3: But in like how police display the power of the state,

646
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 3: Like out in the open world, it really doesn't matter

647
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 3: if you're holding a sign or you're holding a ham

648
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 3: or when you're getting tackled from behind by a big

649
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 3: man with a gun.

650
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, which is why it's like kind of worth

651
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 2: I mean that's like almost like what the answer to

652
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 2: that is like solidarity, and by recognizing that to a

653
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 2: certain degree, if you were at a protest and people

654
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 2: are breaking windows and it's like, okay, well now we're

655
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 2: all in danger together, and if that is a danger

656
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: beyond what you particularly feel like exposing yourself to, that

657
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 2: is probably the time to depart. Another pitfall to avoid

658
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 2: if you're starting your own thing. Any group that involves

659
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 2: money will at some point have someone from that group

660
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 2: steal the.

661
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:44,479
Speaker 3: Money, including bail fuds. Unfortunately, it does happen, and it sucks.

662
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. I have lost count of the number of times

663
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 2: someone who was an organizer has stolen all of the

664
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 2: money from this or that thing. And that's because capitalism

665
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 2: puts people in absolutely weird and terrible positions. Right, it's

666
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 2: still not okay for people to steal the bail fund,

667
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 2: and we should stop them. But often the people who

668
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 2: steal the stuff, if they're the organizers, they don't even

669
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 2: necessarily conceptualize what they did as stealing. They're like, oh,

670
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 2: I'm gonna pay that back. I don't think anyone needs

671
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: it right now. I just need it for rent.

672
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 3: In order for the bail fund to continue, I have

673
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:20,959
Speaker 3: to have stable housing so I need to use these

674
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 3: two thousand dollars right now, and.

675
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, right without checking with the rest of the group,

676
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: and like, you know, like and so if there's money involved,

677
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 2: you should set up some best practices around multiple eyes

678
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 2: on the money at any given point and making sure

679
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 2: that it's accountable to the broader group. One organizing model

680
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 2: that is worth considering is the affinity group. This is

681
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 2: basically you and some of your closest friends that you

682
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 2: feel like doing safe with actions with, whatever the scale

683
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 2: of actions, you get together with your friends.

684
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 3: Or people you're not even necessarily like social friends with,

685
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 3: but people you feel comfortable working with, because there sometimes

686
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 3: is a distinction. Like you said, sometimes you have a

687
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 3: lot of close friends you don't want int your affinity group,

688
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 3: and sometimes there's people in your affinity group that you

689
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 3: may not really want to hang out with like every

690
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 3: week totally, but they're good to work with. Now, that's

691
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 3: a really good point. It's about trust rather than like

692
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 3: getting along with sometimes you know, yeah, it might function

693
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 3: better if you know, you don't all hate each other, ah,

694
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 3: have some affinity yeah, yes, you know, but perhaps you

695
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 3: have a shared affinity within the group.

696
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 2: Ideally, Yeah, it is if you're in a riot, whether

697
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 2: by choice or by accident, you are safer and you

698
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 2: can feel more comfortable if you are there with two

699
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 2: or seven of your closest and most trustworthy friends or frenemies.

700
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: These are the people who are the most likely to

701
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 2: de arrest you. These are the people who are there

702
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 2: to notice if you are caught and will organize your bail.

703
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 2: These are the people who'll be in direct commun You'll

704
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 2: be in direct communication with during the protest, so you

705
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 2: can coordinate your actions together.

706
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 3: It's figure out how you want to get into the

707
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:00,720
Speaker 3: area get out of the area.

708
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:07,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so that's like a going alone is sort

709
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: of expert mode, and so you should take fewer risks

710
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 2: if you go alone until you are good, you know,

711
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 2: and most people do not prefer and are not better

712
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 2: off going to protest alone. And then the final thing

713
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,959
Speaker 2: kind of tying together the existing groups versus whatever else

714
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 2: existing protests movements EBB and flow protests are contagious, especially

715
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 2: when they're rowdy and they show that they take themselves

716
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 2: seriously enough to not just go along with whatever professional

717
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 2: protest managers tell them to do, and take themselves seriously

718
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 2: enough to resist the police and authorities. It's more or

719
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 2: less impossible to know which protests like sparks, will catch

720
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 2: a bigger fire. It is good and useful to cast

721
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 2: sparks and see what catches, or to notice when something

722
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: is starting to spread and to help it spread.

723
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 3: Like what happened a few weeks ago with the campus stuff,

724
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 3: right exactly? What are two places really start popping off?

725
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 3: And you're like, hey, I know some people in college

726
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 3: who are in whatever town I'm in.

727
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 4: Maybe we can figure something out.

728
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so's if that was your involvement. And you're like, oh,

729
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 2: that's not currently happening where I am anymore. What do

730
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: I do next? Things like that will happen again, and

731
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 2: you can also make things like that happen. Most of

732
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 2: the time they will not catch. However, sometimes they do,

733
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 2: and that is like kind of our job in a

734
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,439
Speaker 2: lot of ways is to organize things and try things

735
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 2: and see what catches. I'm curious your take. There are

736
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 2: two political conventions happening this year. The Republican National Convention

737
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 2: will happen from July fifteenth to eighteenth, twenty twenty four,

738
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,240
Speaker 2: in Milwaukee, and then in August nineteenth to twenty second

739
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 2: in Chicago is the Democratic National Convention. They're basically always

740
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 2: protests at these conventions to me, and I'm a little

741
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 2: bit out of touch with it. There's going to be

742
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 2: more this year, Yeah, that's what I'm thinking there certainly will,

743
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 2: I think, especially at the DNC. I don't have much

744
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 2: to say on this at this point besides read up

745
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 2: on the previous ones that have happened. You can go

746
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 2: all the way back to sixty eight if you want

747
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 2: to read about Chicago and the DNC, but also like

748
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: the RNC protests from the Iraq War era, I think

749
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 2: would be verally useful to look at. If you want

750
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 2: to go back to like two thousand and eight and

751
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 2: see how those protests were, I would just recommend reading

752
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: up on it. I don't really have much else to

753
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 2: say on those in the moment. They're too far out

754
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: totally to forecast.

755
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:31,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I.

756
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's kind of all I'll say at the moment.

757
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 3: These will become recurring topics on this podcast the next

758
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 3: few months.

759
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 2: So yeah, And so keep track of what's happening and

760
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,839
Speaker 2: get ready to go to what you feel comfortable with,

761
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 2: and don't be afraid to be brave, but don't let

762
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 2: anyone trick you into doing stuff that you're not comfortable with.

763
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 2: But we need you. We're glad you're here.

764
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, don't be.

765
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 3: So down that the school year is over and these

766
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 3: campus protests only had a few weeks to live. I

767
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 3: know there were certainly people who were really hoping that

768
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 3: after we saw you know, what happened during April and May,

769
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,919
Speaker 3: that maybe this would you know, trigger things happening off

770
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 3: campus around the summer.

771
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 4: And maybe they still will.

772
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 3: And at the very least, we have a lot of

773
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 3: young people listener, possibly included, who like experienced their first

774
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 3: example of like actual state violence like on them, and

775
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 3: that can be a very radicalizing experience. So yeah, don't

776
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 3: don't be so down that maybe your occupation didn't go

777
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,320
Speaker 3: as well as you wanted to. Maybe you're protested, and

778
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 3: but I think there's a lot of lessons to learn

779
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 3: from what happened the past month, and they will become applicable,

780
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 3: possibly this summer, possibly two years from now, who knows.

781
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 3: Like it's hard to say, but yeah, it's whenever you

782
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 3: get that first hint of tear gas, you kind of

783
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 3: become a different person, in my opinion, So congratulations to

784
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 3: everyone who that hopefully didn't get arrested, and if you did,

785
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 3: hopefully you have a jail support crew that is helping

786
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 3: you out.

787
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 2: The other thing that I think that people never really

788
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: recover from isn't the right word. The first time you

789
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 2: see the police retreat totally, you recognize that this thing

790
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,919
Speaker 2: you have been taught is completely unassailable. The reason they're

791
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 2: building cop cities is they know they are assailable and

792
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 2: they want to be less. So well, listen to this podcast,

793
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 2: and that's the only place you'll ever find anything useful.

794
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 2: That's the fine.

795
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 4: I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't say that.

796
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, But there are other podcasts that There's

797
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:39,879
Speaker 3: a lot of books, there's a lot of zines, there's

798
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 3: a lot of sketchy noblog sites which may sometimes have

799
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 3: misinformation and sometimes have good information yay. And you could

800
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 3: certainly certainly check out Margaret. I've heard that you you yourself,

801
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 3: had a few other podcasts what I do, well, if

802
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 3: you want to hear a lot of the history around

803
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 3: some of the stuff we talked about, including like the

804
00:40:58,480 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 3: co Intel pro stuff.

805
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 2: For example, I run a podcast called Cool People Who

806
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 2: Did Cool Stuff on this very network cool Zone Media.

807
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 2: And you can listen to it every Monday and Wednesday.

808
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 2: I just finished a very long, but I swear entertaining

809
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 2: series of episodes about the Russian Revolution in the Civil War.

810
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: I've did an episode about the Burglars for Peace who

811
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 2: exposed co intel pro by robbing an FBI office in

812
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 2: the middle of the night in the early seventies, and

813
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 2: all kinds of other stories, so you can listen to

814
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 2: that or if you want to know more about the

815
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 2: end of the world. I help run a podcast called

816
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 2: Live Like the World Is Dying, comes out every Friday,

817
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 2: and that one is Prepper Butt Community. Yep.

818
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 4: There, well go.

819
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 2: And I have a book coming out. It comes out

820
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 2: of September. It's called The Sapling Cage and it's going

821
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 2: to be kickstarted in June, and if you go to

822
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 2: Kickstarter you can sign up for announcements about that. And

823
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 2: it is the best book I've ever written, so you

824
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 2: all should read it.

825
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 3: Very excited to see that. That does it for us,

826
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 3: that itch could happen here. We will probably see you

827
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 3: out there.

828
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:02,439
Speaker 4: Good luck.

829
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

830
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website.

831
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

832
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can

833
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at

834
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,760
Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.