1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: President Trump is rushing to leave his final mark on 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: environmental policy before he leaves office. In a last minute push, 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: the Trump administration is raising to issue permits finalized major 5 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: environmental regulations and even sell the rights to drill for 6 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: oil and gas. And the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in 7 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: Alaska one point six million acres of pristine wilderness for 8 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: polar bears, caribou, migratory birds, and other animals. Joining me 9 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: as Pat Parento, professor of environmental law at the Vermont 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: Law School, Pat tell us about the Trump administration plan 11 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: to sell leases in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. So 12 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: this is the Arctic Plane, which has been called the 13 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: Serengetti of America because of its incredible diversity of wild life. 14 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: You're talking polar bears and cariboo and musk ox and 15 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: you know, iconic wildlife species. It's also the home of 16 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: the Gwitchen people who hold this area and basically with 17 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: spiritual values. So at the one point six million acre area, 18 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: and it's long been thought to hold a lot of 19 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: oil and gas, although some of the very preliminary test 20 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: wells they've drilled there have not been that promising, so 21 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,919 Speaker 1: we really don't know how much recoverable oil and gas 22 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: there is. It's it's incredibly remote. It's one of the 23 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: most remote areas of the United States up in the Arctic, 24 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: and it's very difficult to to get in there. You 25 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: have to build a whole network of roads and and 26 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: all the support you know that you need for that. 27 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: It's very very expensive for exploration and production. So there 28 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: are lots of obstacles uh, both legal and natural uh 29 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: to actually drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. I 30 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: think I think we're a long way from from that 31 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: actually happening. But certainly the Trump administration is doing absolutely 32 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: everything it can in a rush towards the end of 33 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: its term to get these leases out the door and 34 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: then we'll see what happens well. So they're in a 35 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: really tight timeline to get this done before Biden comes 36 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: into office. Normally it takes even after they get the bids, 37 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: it takes the Bureau of Land Management months, doesn't it 38 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: to review them and decide what to sell. Yes, this 39 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: is a multi month process at best. You know, there 40 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: was an environmental impact statement that was done. That opened 41 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: up the entire coastal plane. That was a surprise, you know, 42 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: there was some thought that the administration might not open 43 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: the whole thing, all one point six million acres up 44 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: to leasing. Maybe they try to identify areas where they 45 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: thought the recoverable oil was the easiest to get to, 46 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: or the richest deposits or whatever, but they didn't. They 47 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: opened the whole thing up. So what happened then the 48 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: next step in the process is what they call a 49 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: call for nominations. So they put out a call to 50 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: the oil industry and they say which tracks within this 51 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: vast area are you most interested in bidding on? So 52 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: that's what's happened Tuesday, the call for nominations. Then usually 53 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: months go by before you get the response to that. 54 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: They've set a deadline of get this January seventeen and 55 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: three days before inauguration for the industry to indicate which 56 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: tracks that they interested in. And then, as you say, 57 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: once they find out, you know, the industry's interests, then 58 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: there's usually a several months period of analyzing what industry 59 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: has said, piecing together leasable tracks of land, and then 60 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: they put out the call for bids on the specific 61 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: tracks to be leased, and yes, that usually takes several months, 62 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: and of course, to out this long process, normally there's 63 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: opportunities for the public to weigh in under the rules 64 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: that the BLM Bureau of Land Management follows in traditional 65 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: or in historic cases, this situation, there's going to be 66 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: no opportunity for that, no time for the Bureau of 67 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: Land Management to actually analyze which of these areas of 68 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 1: interest makes sense to offer for leases, and everything is 69 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: being rushed. But the thing is, it can't all be 70 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: completed before the Biden administration takes office. So the Biden 71 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: administration will have the opportunity to do something to deal 72 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: with these leases. Under that timeline, the Bureau of Land 73 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: Management won't have enough time to finalize the leases before 74 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 1: Biden is inaugurated. So can the Biden administration just come 75 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 1: in and tell the Bureau of Land Management cancel those leases? 76 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: I think they can. I think they have the power 77 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: of a couple of ways to do it, because they 78 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 1: do have to observe, you know, her process and legalities. 79 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: But because the lawsuits challenging the legitimacy of the environmental 80 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: impact statement have yet to be decided, the Biden administration 81 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: could confess error. It could go into court and say 82 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: we agree with the critics who say that the environmental 83 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: statement did not adequately analyze the impact. But remember this 84 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: is one of the richest wildlife areas on the continent, 85 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: with lots of endangered species, including the polar bear. So 86 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: the challenge to the leasing process itself would give the 87 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: Biden administration chance to say, we think the predicate, the 88 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: basis for this leasing program is wrong, it's illegal, and 89 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: we're going to redo it. In addition to that, the 90 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: president does have the authority not to issue leases, not 91 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: to award the bids, and in the worst possible case 92 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: where the Trump administration was somehow able to actually sell leases, 93 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: there are some provisions in these leases that allow for 94 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: them to be revoked. I don't know exactly what the 95 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: terms are going to be for these leases, but that 96 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: will be something the Biden administration can look at. Are 97 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: there ways in which the leases themselves can be revoked 98 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: in the final analysis, though, if an oil company actually 99 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: buys one of these leases, the Biden administration could buy 100 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: it back. There's that question about whether any of the 101 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: oil and gas companies are actually going to bid on 102 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: these leases. Given all the uncertainty, given the legal challenges, 103 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: US banks have already said they're not gonna lend to 104 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: the oil companies to drill in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. 105 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: So there are so many unknowns around this leasing that 106 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: I don't think it's actually going to happen. And Pat, 107 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: what about the lawsuits. Who's suing to stop this? It's 108 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: the Gritchin people, the Inuit people who occupy this part 109 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: of the Arctic um as well as trustees for Alaska, 110 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 1: which is the leading conservation group UH in Alaska, and 111 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: I'm sure others, but those are the two main parties 112 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: that are challenging it. And you know, this does give 113 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: the Biden administration the chance to say to the court, um, 114 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: we agree with the assertions that this process has been flawed, 115 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: and and the more that it's rushed by the Trump 116 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: administration at the very end of its term, not following 117 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: proper procedure, varying from what normally was done. All of 118 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: those reasons are going to be used, I think to 119 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: justify the Biden administration pulling all of this back. And 120 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: the President elect has stated on the record many times 121 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: that he does not believe that the refuge should be drilled. 122 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: He took that same position when he was in the Senate. 123 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: You know this, this area has been the subject of 124 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: controversy for as long as I can remember, forty years 125 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: or more. So there's a long history here, Uh, this 126 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: area being sort of sacristan and should be the sort 127 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: of the last place on Earth that you'd be drilling. 128 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: Given the fact that climate science is telling us we 129 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: have to stop drilling and producing all this fossil fuel, 130 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: you would think just to be one of those areas 131 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: that would be the very last. Let's turn to California. 132 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: California has sued Trump and the federal agencies a hundred 133 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: and six times over the past four years, more than 134 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: any other state, and the bulk of those fifty seven 135 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: have focused on environmental issues. Tell us about some of 136 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: the biggest issues that California has been fighting over. Wow, Yeah, 137 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,839 Speaker 1: almost every major issue you can think of. The Clean 138 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: Air Act. California obviously has challenged the rollback of the 139 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: fuel economy standards because California traditionally has enjoyed special status 140 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: as the one state that can set more stringent fuel 141 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: economy standards and tail pipe emission standards than any state, 142 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: and of course the Trump administration has revoked California's authority 143 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: to do that. In addition to rolling back the standards 144 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: that the Obama administration adopted, So fuel economy is one. 145 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: The Clean Power Plan that Obama adopted regulating greenhouse gas 146 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 1: emissions from power plants, that's another case that California is 147 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: leading the charge on UH and and arguing that the 148 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: Trump administration unlawfully repealed the Clean Power Plan and substituted 149 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: a very weak, almost uh ridiculous, frankly plan called the 150 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: ACE Rule, the the Affordable Clean Energy Rule, which doesn't 151 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: do anything for greenhouse gas emissions. Their target is basically 152 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: a rounding error UM in the calculation of emission reduction, 153 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: something like less than one per cent maybe could be achieved. 154 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: But California has also challenged the Trump administration's border wall. UH. 155 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: That that's the case that's pen in the United States 156 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: Supreme Court now because Trump reprogrammed money from the Department 157 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: of Defense budget UH to build his wall, and and 158 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: the lower courts UH said that was illegal. UH. California 159 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 1: has challenged the rollback of the Clean Water Act, challenged 160 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: the rollback of the methane Rule regulating methane emissions, both 161 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: those that are on federal lands where oil and gas 162 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:32,839 Speaker 1: development flares. The method when they're after the oil, they 163 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: burned off the methane because it's not valuable enough to recover. 164 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: California's challenged that. You can go right down the line 165 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: the Endangered Species Act. The Trump administration rolled back the 166 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: rules implementing the s A, and California has challenged that. So, 167 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: like you said, over a hundred lawsuits. And because California 168 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: has a very strong Attorney General's office. After all, we've 169 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,439 Speaker 1: we've seen a lot of you know, outstanding people come 170 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,959 Speaker 1: out of that office. Um, they they have the legal 171 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: muscle uh to handle all these cases and they have 172 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: a pretty good track record against the Trump administration and 173 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: winning them. The California a g. S Office said it's 174 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: reviewing the lawsuits now and it will brief the White 175 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,959 Speaker 1: House about the cases still pending and how they can 176 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: be resolved, explain why they wouldn't just drop all the lawsuits. Well, 177 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: because this is an opportunity for the Biden administration to 178 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: agree with some of the reasons why the Trump rules 179 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: should be sent back remand it, as we call it, 180 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: to be reconsidered and obviously repealed and replaced. So you know, 181 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: what you're seeing is a flip the script kind of situation. 182 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: When Trump came in, he repealed and replaced all of 183 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: the Obama rules. Now when Biden comes in, he's going 184 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: to do a similar thing with the Trump rules, but 185 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 1: he's got to do it in compliance with the law. 186 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: You know, the Trump uh track recording court was terrible. 187 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: I mean, they lost almost of the cases where they 188 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: were challenged. Biden doesn't want to repeat that, so he 189 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: wants to keep some of these lawsuits in place so 190 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: that he can go into court and say, your honor, 191 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: these are the areas where the Trump rule really did 192 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: violate the law, or certainly where there are flaws in 193 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: the way they went about analyzing the rules, and here 194 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 1: are the reasons why we want to correct those errors 195 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: and come up with a new rule. That's a better way, 196 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: I think, legally to proceed and just sweeping all of 197 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: the rules out, you know, with one's um and that 198 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: the lawsuits give him Biden, I mean, the opportunity to 199 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: do that in a more logical, measured way that I 200 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: think Biden is gonna want to follow. So we've talked 201 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: before about the rules and how long it takes to 202 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: get them in place, the different stages that are needed, 203 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: the public hearings that a lot of times the Trump 204 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: administration just decided not to comply with. So how long 205 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: could it take Biden to repeal and replace these rules 206 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: and regulations. Yeah, it is going to take more time 207 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: than people would want to hear. But the truth is 208 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: that these rulemakings take a year to two and sometimes 209 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: longer than that. And even though I think Biden is 210 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: going to have a very talented team day one. I 211 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 1: mean I see the names on the transition teams, their 212 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: names I recognize. You know, these are people who know 213 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:45,199 Speaker 1: their agencies, know the law, know the process, no Washington, 214 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 1: and know how to get things done. Even with all that, 215 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: even with a cracked team on the job right away, Uh, 216 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: it's still gonna take months and in and some of 217 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: the bigger rules like what to do with power plants, 218 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: to the Clean Air Act and greenhouse gasses. You know 219 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,959 Speaker 1: that the two year um proposition. I think the clean 220 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: water rule is very complicated that one could take two 221 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: years as well. Some of the other ones can be 222 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: done very quickly, like restoring the boundaries to the National Monuments, Bears, Ears, 223 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: and Grand Staircase. You know, that's something that Biden can 224 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: do right away because that's within the power of the 225 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: executive branch. The president power to do that with a 226 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: stroke of a pen. Executive orders are very easy for 227 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: him to reverse. But rules, no, those are going to 228 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: take time. And because we have this really conservative six 229 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: to three majority on the Supreme Court, you know you're 230 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: gonna have to ask yourself a question if you're at 231 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: e p A, is this a rule that I can 232 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: get five votes on the Supreme Court to uphold? Mean? 233 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have thought questions like that when I was 234 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: at e p A would have ever come up. We 235 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: would just simply do what we thought was right and legal. 236 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: But we wouldn't be asking ourselves, Oh my goodness, I 237 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: wonder if this really conservative bench that's going to be 238 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: reviewing our rules is going to agree with us that 239 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: we have the authority to do it. So that's a 240 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: big unknown that we haven't faced before, and the Biden 241 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: administration is going to have to navigate that well. The 242 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: Biden administration have to basically clean house at the e 243 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: p A. After years of having a lobbyist in charge 244 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: of the agency and the different people that he appointed, well, 245 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: it certainly will be at the top tier, and that 246 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: would be the administrator of the deputy, the assistant administrators 247 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: for Air and water and so forth. So you're going 248 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: to have to go probably three levels deep across the 249 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: top of the agency to replace people. And then you're 250 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: going to have to find the people that are burrowing 251 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: in to the agency who were supporting what Trump was 252 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: doing and make sure that they don't remain in positions 253 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: of authority or influence. And then you're gonna have to 254 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: bring in a whole new tier of leadership into the agency, 255 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: some of which are gonna have trouble getting, you know, 256 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: past the confirmation process with McConnell, and so they're gonna 257 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: be some interim appointments. Trump, of course did that across 258 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: the board. I'm sure Biden would prefer to have his 259 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: nominations confirmed, but he may be facing a situation of 260 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: stalemate in the Senate because the Democrats don't look like 261 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: they're going to be able to either gain at least 262 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: a split in the Senate. With the two Georgia races 263 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: are obviously critically important. If both of those seats go 264 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: to the Democrats. Then it's a whole different ballgame. You know. 265 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: Then Kamala Harris can break any tie if the Democrats 266 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: and Republicans are split. But the betting is that that's 267 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: probably not going to happen. The Democrats won't be in 268 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: a position to push things through the Senate, and so 269 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: filling these positions becomes yet another big challenge for the 270 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: Biden administration. I think he's got the people to do it, 271 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: and I think he'll use these interim appointments as much 272 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: as he can, But there is a limit to how 273 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: long you can go with interim appointments. Thanks for being 274 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg Laws Show. Pat. That's Pat Parento, a 275 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: professor Vermont Law School. While President Trump's campaign lawyer Rudy 276 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: Giuliani was claiming in a Pennsylvania federal court hearing that 277 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: Democrats conspired to block Republican pole observers from monitoring ballot 278 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: counts for fraud, the state Supreme Court dealt that argument 279 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: a blow. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled on Tuesday that 280 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: Republican pole observers were not entitled to stand within a 281 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: certain distance to observe the counting of ballots. The state 282 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: High Court ruling came down during a hearing before federal 283 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: Judge Matthew brand on Pennsylvania's motion to dismiss the Trump 284 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: campaign's federal lawsuit seeking to block certification of President elect 285 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: Joe Biden is projected victory in that state. Joining me 286 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: as election law expert, Richard Rofald, a professor at Columbia 287 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: Law School, so a lawyer for one of the Pennsylvania counties, 288 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,959 Speaker 1: said that the Pennsylvania lawsuit for some reason, has become 289 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 1: a lifeline to the Trump campaign. Are these the only 290 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: lawsuits that are moving forward? Have all the other lawsuits 291 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 1: basically gone away slowly? There was that there was something 292 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: pending in the Vada Initigan who has moved into the 293 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 1: has turned into the battle of the canvassing boards constant. 294 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: I guess there may and may not be the recount. 295 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: Currently the state is given the Trump campaign like a 296 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 1: seven point nine million dollars deal if they want to 297 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 1: do a recount. Georgia again, they're in the process of 298 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: doing their recount. I can read that something was filed 299 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: in Nevada recently, but you may be right that Pennsylvania 300 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: is how they were. The action is right now. I 301 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: think there's been more lawsuits filed in Pennsylvania as well. 302 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: Is it because Pennsylvania is a battleground state it's so 303 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: important that Trump has to in it, or is it 304 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: because of the Pennsylvania rules and regulations that I'm not sure. 305 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: I mean, um, even if from prevailed in Pennsylvania, which 306 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: seems highly doubtful, he that would not be enough to 307 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: give him the election. I'm assuming that all the states 308 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: turn out the way they seem to be, that we're 309 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: still believe abiding with two eight six electoral outho be 310 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: enough to win. I think where they're hoping is to 311 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: find more either some more discrepancies in the absentee balloting procedure, 312 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: whether it's sending them out the corrections or the counting 313 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: or the observations. I just think that they seemed to 314 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 1: have piled more on that in Pennsylvania. It could be 315 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,479 Speaker 1: because Georgia is run by a Republican and that he's 316 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: being attacked, they may be less able to challenge the 317 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: administration of the electoral system. In Georgia and in Arizona, 318 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 1: there are a lot of Republicans in power. There. There 319 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 1: was a sense that the Pennsylvania Secretary of State and 320 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: the Pennsylvania courts have been more expensive in their treatment 321 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: of absent key ballots then the courts or administrators in 322 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: the other states were, So I think maybe they're hoping 323 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: to just find more more. I think they're making more 324 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 1: claims of inconsistent treatment or of practices that departed from 325 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: the rules. Rudy Giuliani, in the oral arguments yesterday, described 326 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: this vast but vague Democratic conspiracy to steal the election, 327 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: saying at one point that one and a half million 328 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 1: valid ballots would have to be thrown out, But he 329 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: admitted that the campaign isn't pleading voter fraud, even though 330 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: he argued that there is voter fraud. So what is 331 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: the argument in that case? In the federal case in Pennsylvania? 332 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: As I understand that the argument is simply that for 333 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: things like the fact that the observers who are not 334 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: allowed to be as close to the ballotcounting as they 335 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 1: as they wanted to be, and for things like giving 336 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: voters the opportunity to correct, you know, to six flaws 337 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: like problems with their signatures, that it was just sufficiently 338 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: irregular that there might have been fought. They can't prove it, 339 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: but it's the fact of irregularity or the some kind 340 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: of gap between ideal procedure and the procedures that were 341 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: that were actually provided. Either that that alone is enough 342 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: to strike down that election, or that that would have 343 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: permitted fraud, although they don't have any proof of fraud, 344 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: and that that should be enough. It's either the one 345 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: or the other, or maybe the the two blending together 346 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: that because there were imperfections in the administration of the election, 347 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: that's enough. Now, how does this play in with the 348 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: ruling yesterday by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court? As you mentioned 349 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: that Trump campaign has argued that Republican observers were kept 350 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 1: too far away to be able to properly monitor the 351 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,479 Speaker 1: ballot processing, and the Pennsylvania Supreme Court rule they're not 352 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: entitled to be any specific distance away. Well, that's certainly 353 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 1: gonna be a problem for them. But I actually thought 354 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: even more important in that Pennsylvania decision was not the 355 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: majority of thingion but the dissent, but a sent written 356 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: by the Chief Justice, who I think it's also been 357 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: dissenting in the Pennsylvania Court's more expensive permissions with respect 358 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 1: to absent key balloting. The Chief Justice said, well, maybe 359 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 1: he would have gone along with the lower court, which 360 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: would have said that maybe they should have been allowed 361 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: to come closer. But the final sentence, or to have 362 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: the Chief Justice, and I'm reading it right now, is 363 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: I notice that given the enormous deal of canvassing activities 364 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: and the historical Balkanization associated with the administration of the 365 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: election franchise at the county and district levels, there have 366 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: been and always will be some localized irregularities, but short 367 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 1: of demonstrated fraud, the notion that presumptively valid ballots cast 368 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: by the Pennsylvania electorate would be disregarded based on isolated 369 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: procedural irregularities that have been redressed is misguided. So this 370 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: was the dissenter who thought maybe there was something to 371 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: the argument that they should have been allowed to be closer. 372 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: But even the dissenter who kind of agreed with them 373 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: on the point that they should have been allowed to 374 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 1: be closer, is saying that that's not a basis for 375 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: throwing at any ballot. Although they lost on the law. 376 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: Even more powerful is the descent who thinks that basically 377 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: this is not a basis for throwing a ballot. I've 378 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: been talking to election law expert Richard Braffald, a professor 379 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: at Columbia Law School, it seems that every time the 380 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: Trump campaign lawsuits have actually gotten into court that even 381 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: when they claim to have evidence of affidavits, that there 382 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: is a problem with the evidence. There really hasn't been 383 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: a case so far that I can recall, except for 384 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 1: the lower court in Pennsylvania about the election observers, which 385 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: was just overturned. There really hasn't been a case where 386 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: they said, here's the fraud, here's what happened, and the 387 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: court said, yes, you're right, that's enough evidence. Right that 388 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: that has not happened. I don't think any court has 389 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: actually found fraud under any circumstances. So most that has 390 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: been found has been, in effect a failure by some 391 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: election administrators to comply with the proper procedures. And as 392 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: the Chief Justice in defense of the Supreme Court said, 393 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 1: those kinds of minor irregularities happen all the time, and 394 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: it's never been a basis for throwing out balance. The 395 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: judge hasn't ruled yet in the federal case, although he 396 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: seemed to indicate by his comments that he didn't find 397 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: much merit in the argument. He said, how the expansion 398 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: of the right to vote burdens anyone is a mystery. 399 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: But still Giuliani is looking to file a second amended complaint, 400 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: and one wonders what new allegations he can come up with. 401 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: And somebody their whole theory that this is not an 402 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: absolutely perfect election, and then given the fact that some 403 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: minor mistakes might have happened somewhere, or there might have 404 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: been some differences in local procedure between one county and another, 405 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 1: that's enough to for the whole election out and that's 406 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 1: just never been the law. What's your take on the 407 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: Georgia election results audit. It's expected to be finished by today, 408 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: and they did find some problems, but the change in 409 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: votes was, you know, in Trump's favor, right, Well, I mean, 410 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: I think it shows that the Georgia result is probably right. 411 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the main thing that happened they 412 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: just go to that one county had failed to include 413 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: some votes. I think the votes that were actually counted 414 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 1: before the the audit turned out to be almost identical, 415 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: So they're the only in I mean something in any 416 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: of the Georgia counties it was identical, and then the 417 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 1: ones that wasn't with the discrepanties are very mindored what 418 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: they did discover. I think it is in one or 419 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: two places, some votes had not been counted at all. 420 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: They were not in the final count, and that's the 421 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: major thing that changed the overall result by maybe around 422 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: the southand votes from that fourteen poste thousands on Biden margin. 423 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: But now they've counted all the votes, and I think 424 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: it really proved that their initial count was of votes 425 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: that were accounting where more accurate now. I think that 426 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: this was not the actual recount that the state law 427 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: entitled the loser to. This was something extra added by 428 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: the Republican Secretary of State. But this was a hand recount. 429 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 1: I think that they might be the come campaign might 430 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: be entitled to a machinery count, but it's it's highly 431 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: unlikely that which would change more than us a tiny, 432 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: tiny number of votes. Is any rich do you remember 433 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: another state official being subjected to the kind of pressure 434 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: that the Georgia secretary The Republican Georgia Secretary of State 435 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: has been subjected to, even a call from Lindsay Graham, 436 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 1: which he claims Graham was asking about discounting, throwing out 437 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: some ballots, And there was another person on that call, Right, 438 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: I've never heard anything where the messages find something that 439 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: you can throw this out versus, you know, give it 440 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 1: as careful account as you can, um, you know, and 441 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: enforced the law. But this was this was beyond enforced 442 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: the law. This was find something so that you can 443 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: shrow votes out, and that I think is unheard of 444 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: at least in you know, in anybody who purports to 445 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: be following the law and trying to actually run honest 446 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: election as opposed to undoing an election. So, now, once 447 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: the states have certified the vote talies, will these election 448 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: law challenges be root once they're certified? Yeah, I mean, 449 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: I guess they can try and enjoying the certification. I mean, 450 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 1: I'm not sure it's completely route in the sense that 451 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: they might be challenging the results and you know, and 452 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: they said, we say, okay, now that we have a 453 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: certified result, we're going to challenge that. That's the possible. 454 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: The burden is even heavier to overturn that, to overturn 455 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: a certified results. But I mean, in theory, there's always 456 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: a possibility that somebody you can once again prove braw 457 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: or some something seriously wrong with the with that it's 458 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: highly unlikely. I mean even more highly unlikely than than 459 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: blocking the certifications. That means to me that on December thirteen, 460 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: we may have some peace from these lawsuits because I 461 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: believe that Michigan is the last state to certify. In 462 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: a state is December thirteenth, right, I mean, certainly once 463 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 1: the electoral votes are counted, O cast I should say, 464 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: once the electoral votes are cast, I think in December thirteen. 465 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: I don't think there's room for anything more. Um. At 466 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: that point, the electors have voted. So I think all 467 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: that they're trying to do is prevent the certifications that 468 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: would result in the selecting of the electors. I don't 469 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: think there's anything they can do once the electors have 470 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: actually voted. Is there anything that Biden can do to 471 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: force the transition? I don't think so. I don't think 472 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: there's anything they can do. Maybe after the electors have voted. UM. 473 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: I mean I've never seen this. Of course, this has 474 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: never happened before. I mean, UM, at least not in 475 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: a modern time. I mean, I who knows what it 476 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: was like in the nineteenth century, but certainly in a 477 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: modern era. There's no nothing like a president kind of refusing, 478 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: absolutely refusing to to to make a transition to his successor. UM. 479 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: I mean it's conceivable. I mean, I guess the Trump 480 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: people have are technically accurate in that there is no 481 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: president until the electors have voted. UM. So maybe they 482 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: could do something after after the electors have voted, but 483 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: it's not clear to me that they can compel anything 484 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: until then. Finally, Giuliani said in the Fox Business Network 485 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: interview yesterday that he's looking for a via goal that 486 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: will take a case to the Supreme Court. Do you 487 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: see any vehicle right now? I don't. I don't say, 488 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: have not really come up with any compelling federal arguments. 489 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: I mean, mostly their arguments are really state arguments about, 490 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: you know, did the with state law complied with those 491 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: of largely sailed. These are the kinds of the seats 492 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: that are normally resolved in state court. And I just 493 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: don't see it. Thanks, rich That's Richard Brofald, a professor 494 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: at Columbia Law School. President Trump has resumed with one 495 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: of his most successful priorities as president, the appointment of 496 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: federal judges, to make the judiciary more conservative and set 497 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: up majority leader Mitch McConnell is poised to continue pushing 498 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: the confirmations to the lifetime appointments through until Trump's term 499 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: is over. The pair have confirmed more than two twenty 500 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: lifetime judicial appointees to the federal courts, including three Supreme 501 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: Court justices. Joining me is Professor Carl Bias of the 502 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: University of Richmond School of Law. Carl. So far, have 503 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: any judges been confirmed during the lame duck session, Yes, 504 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 1: they have. Two were confirmed last week for the district bench, 505 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: and this week five are scheduled. One was just confirmed 506 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: this morning and the other four will be confirmed this week, 507 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,959 Speaker 1: a second one today and then the others by Thursday, 508 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: and so the seven will have been confirmed in the 509 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: lame ducks so far for the district courts. Are these 510 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: openings that have been in place for a while? Did 511 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: they just come up? Most of them have existed for 512 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: some time, And of course that's someone's confirmed this week, 513 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: it means they've been through the process. They've been nominated 514 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: and had committee hearings, approval votes in the committee and 515 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,959 Speaker 1: then up for debate and then a vote on the floor. 516 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: So they are not new, virtually all of them. So 517 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: there are a few that are. And so for example, 518 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: there is a uh, circuit they can see that was 519 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: just created when one Torriella died who served on the 520 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: first circuit, and someone was just recently nominated for that 521 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: position after the election. Let's concentrate on the district court 522 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: nominations for a moment. Are these going through on party 523 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: line votes as we've seen with most of the circuit 524 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: court nominations, or are these different? Well? Some are. For example, 525 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: the one this morning nominee for the Southern District of 526 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: Mississippi was relatively closed three to forty three. Uh. And 527 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: so we may see that with some of these nominees, 528 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,479 Speaker 1: especially if there's some controversy. And there's also the feeling 529 00:32:55,520 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: I think among some Democrats that Mitch McConnell is jamming 530 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: through people at the last minute after the voters have spoken, uh, 531 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: in terms of who they want to be nominating judges. 532 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: Has this happened before? Yeah? Um, you know in recent administrations. 533 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: At the end of Obama's time, the Senate, when McConnell 534 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: was in the majority, Republican Senate confirmed no one after 535 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: July six. So that gives you a sense of discrepancy 536 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: between then and now. On the other hand at the 537 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 1: end of Bush in two thou seven two eight uh 538 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: Democrats were in the majority and they confirmed fifty eight 539 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: district judges and ten circuit judges, as opposed to the 540 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: Republican majority in two fifteen sixteen confirmed only two circuit 541 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: judges and eighteen district judges, And so there have been 542 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: disparities depending on who's in the White House and who 543 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 1: is in the control of the Senate. Just explain once 544 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: again the difference between these district court judges, who are 545 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: sort of like the trial judges in a federal system, 546 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: and what we normally concentrate on, which is the circuit 547 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: court judges. Well, UM, this administration, the Trump administration, has 548 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: focused like a laser on the appeals courts, and so 549 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: there are only three vacancies now and there were no 550 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: vacancies for a short period, which is the fewest since 551 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,800 Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan was president. Um, but has neglected to some 552 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: extent the district vacancies and emergency vacancies. But the difference 553 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: is at the appellate level, the rulings cover all of 554 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: the states in a particular circuit, as opposed to a 555 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: district judge who really only can't even bind people in 556 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,800 Speaker 1: the judge's own courthouse, and so essentially the appellate judges 557 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: make more policy and of cases. The court of last 558 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: resort is the appellate court that decides because of Supreme 559 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 1: Court here so few cases, and so that's why the 560 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,320 Speaker 1: administration has tried to keep all of those seats stilled 561 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: and may fill all three vacancies. Now I think tomorrow 562 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: will have just as Amy Colony Barrett's replacement who's been 563 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: nominated before Judiciary for hearing, and then the idea is 564 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: to confirm him to her Seventh Circuit vacancy. What do 565 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: we know about Thomas Kirsch who has been nominated Phil 566 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: Coney Barrett's seat. He is presently the U S. Attorney 567 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: for the Northern District of Indiana and has experience in 568 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,439 Speaker 1: the practice with Winston Strawn, I believe the Chicago firm, 569 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: and hasn't served in and out of the Justice Department 570 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 1: U S. Attorney's office in Northern District of Indiana in 571 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: his career, and I think is well regarded. But he 572 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,320 Speaker 1: looks like a number of other nominees of President Trump, 573 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: I think, but we'll see as some strong support from 574 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: the Home state senators in Indiana about the latest Trump 575 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: nominations to the courts. So tell us about Judge ral 576 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: Aris Mark Squat, who was nominated to fill the vacancy 577 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: on the First Circuit Court of Appeals. And he is 578 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: a district judge whom Trump appointed to the District of 579 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: Puerto Rico and has served for eighteen months in that capacity, 580 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 1: and so he's a nominee for the first Circuit, and 581 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: I think they will try to move his nomination as well. 582 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: There's a third vacancy on the seventh Circuit. Judge Long 583 00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: assumed senior status on November thirty, and the Republicans may 584 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: try to feel that they can see as well. And 585 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: so I think it was a smart or choice on 586 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: the part of the administration to try to elevate someone 587 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: who was already on the district bench and someone from 588 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: Puerto Rico, because there's a bit of a tradition there 589 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,880 Speaker 1: um to have someone from Puerto Rico on the first 590 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:31,240 Speaker 1: circuit um. And so the administration as someone uh they've 591 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: already sent through the process, and the Puerto Rico District 592 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: judge was confirmed on a nineties three vote um and 593 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: had a very smooth nomination confirmation process. Uh, and so 594 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: I think the hope is that he would be as 595 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: smoothly confirmed in this situation. So again it's after the 596 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,839 Speaker 1: election when he was nominated and would be confirmed if 597 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 1: that happens. Is there enough time to get all the 598 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:07,919 Speaker 1: confirmations for the seventh Circuit done? Well? Maybe I think 599 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: the one that's already been made and has the hearing 600 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 1: tomorrow the courage. I think that could be done because 601 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: then he would just need a committee vote, which could 602 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: happen in December, and then a final vote, which could 603 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,720 Speaker 1: happen in December. The others are more difficult. It depends 604 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: on when the first circuit nominee has a hearing, and 605 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: then there's no nominee yet for Judge Baumb's seat, So 606 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,760 Speaker 1: that could be tight because they only have a small 607 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: number of working days after Thanksgiving when they come back, 608 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,839 Speaker 1: and then the Senate turns over I believe on the 609 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 1: fifth or so of January, and so uh, it's just 610 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,760 Speaker 1: not clear that there are enough you know, legislative days 611 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: two approve all three of those circuits judges, and then 612 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: the questions also about district judges. There are five others 613 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: who um are on the floor, and so we've had 614 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: hearings and committee votes, and those five could easily be 615 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: confirmed in December. But there are twenty more who have 616 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,800 Speaker 1: been nominated by the President but not even had a 617 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: hearing yet. And I think there's a big question mark 618 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 1: as to those. Well know, we don't know yet who's 619 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: gonna be on the hearing tomorrow besides Kurse. It could 620 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,800 Speaker 1: be some district nominees, but that's not clear, and so 621 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: it's not at all clear that any of those twenty 622 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: would be able to get through the process if the 623 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,720 Speaker 1: hearings are not held till December. That's a very tight 624 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: time frame given what has to happen in that period. 625 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 1: So look back and on the four years of judicial 626 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: nominations and tell us what President Trump and Mitch McConnell 627 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:02,800 Speaker 1: have accomplished. Well, they've named three extremely conservative and confirmed 628 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:08,320 Speaker 1: three extremely conservatives Supreme Court justices fifty three so far 629 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: and counting similar Appellate Court judges and one sixty nine 630 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: district judges after this week, which is relatively strong record, 631 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: especially at the appellate level. So for example, President Obama 632 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:30,760 Speaker 1: in two terms was able to confirm fifty five appellate judges. 633 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: So if only two more are confirmed in President Trump 634 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 1: would have matched that. And if he has all three confirmed, 635 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,839 Speaker 1: that would mean he named more in one term than 636 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: Obama did in two. Since Mitch McConnell has filled and 637 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:51,279 Speaker 1: looks likely to fill every single opening, what are the 638 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:56,439 Speaker 1: prospects for Joe Biden to appoint judges? Well, there are 639 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: some because as I said, there twenty two vacancies at 640 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 1: the district level where there are no nominees yet, so 641 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: he's likely to inherit those. And then there's twenty more 642 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: who have been nominated for vacancies they haven't had a 643 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 1: herring yet, so that would come to forty two even 644 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,839 Speaker 1: if everybody else were confirmed by McConnell UM. And then 645 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: there'll be uh more people who assume senior status uh 646 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: and retire in the next year. So he may have 647 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 1: a fair number of vacancies that he can fill, but 648 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,920 Speaker 1: mostly at the district level, not very many at the 649 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 1: appellate level unless judges presently sitting assumed senior status. And 650 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: there are a number of appellate judges who are eligible 651 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 1: under the rule of our sixty five and have fifteen 652 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,759 Speaker 1: years of service uh and so some of them may 653 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 1: well assume senior status in so then Biden would, to 654 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 1: put it in colloquial terms, take back the nominations of 655 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: those who haven't been confirmed yet. They would expire when 656 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 1: the new Senate and President Trump of course could renominate 657 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 1: them in that period right between the new Senate coming 658 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:23,439 Speaker 1: in and inauguration day. But I don't think that much 659 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 1: is going to happen in that period. The Senate is 660 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,799 Speaker 1: getting organized, inaugurations being planned, the Senate may not even 661 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:34,399 Speaker 1: be infession much of that early part of January, So 662 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:39,359 Speaker 1: that's probably not realistic. Uh, that much would happened by 663 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,280 Speaker 1: way of confirmations in that period of time. President Trump 664 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:48,319 Speaker 1: has been able to nominate and get confirmed some very 665 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:54,840 Speaker 1: conservative judges. As we've discussed, what will happen when a 666 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:59,759 Speaker 1: President Biden nominates a very liberal judge? Are they like 667 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:04,840 Speaker 1: me to get through? If the Senate remains in Republican hands, Well, 668 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 1: a lot depends on what happens in the two Georgia 669 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:12,359 Speaker 1: races that will be decided on January six. Uh. If 670 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 1: Democrats were able to win both of those, then they 671 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 1: would have a Senate majority because the tiebreaking vote would 672 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 1: be the vice president. Uh, there is that possibility. UM. 673 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 1: If not then McConnell, I think, would be the leader, 674 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,480 Speaker 1: and there would be a very thin majority in the Senate, 675 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 1: and I think it will be a matter of negotiation 676 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 1: between the White House and McConnell and Biden me to 677 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:47,239 Speaker 1: some extent, have to moderate the type of people he chooses. 678 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 1: I think he has a good relationship with Mitch McConnell 679 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,080 Speaker 1: and with many other Senators with whom he served, and 680 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,880 Speaker 1: so he knows the process very well, which chair to 681 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: Judiciary Committee and was honored for three decades or more, 682 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: and has very good people around him to help with 683 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 1: judicial selection. Cautiously optimistic that that will go smoothly. That's 684 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,839 Speaker 1: Carl Tobias at the University of Richmond Law School. And 685 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,000 Speaker 1: that's it for the sedition of the Bloomberg Law Show. 686 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,360 Speaker 1: I'm June Grasso. Thanks so much for listening, and please 687 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 1: tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every week night at 688 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,240 Speaker 1: ten pm Eastern right here on Bloomberg Radio.