Speaker 1: The more seeds I sew and feed more people, the
Speaker 1: more harmony I generate, and that is going to somehow
Speaker 1: or other benefit me. Welcome to the one you feed
Speaker 1: Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the
Speaker 1: thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or
Speaker 1: you are what you think, ring true. And yet for
Speaker 1: many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.
Speaker 1: We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We
Speaker 1: see what we don't have instead of what we do.
Speaker 1: We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.
Speaker 1: But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It
Speaker 1: takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life
Speaker 1: worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep
Speaker 1: themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their
Speaker 1: good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this
Speaker 1: episode is Caroline Mace and author of many books, former
Speaker 1: host of the TV series The Journey with Caroline Mace
Speaker 1: on the Oxygen Network, and guest on Oprah Winfrey's Super
Speaker 1: Soul Sunday. Today, Caroline and Eric discuss her book Intimate
Speaker 1: Conversations with the Divine Prayer Guidance and Grace. Hi Caroline,
Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. Hi Eric, thank you. Nice to
Speaker 1: be with you. It's a pleasure to have you on.
Speaker 1: We're going to discuss your latest book, Intimate Conversations with
Speaker 1: the Divine Prayer, Guidance and Grace. But before we do that,
Speaker 1: let's start, like we always do, with the Parable. And
Speaker 1: in the Parable, there is a grandmother who's talking with
Speaker 1: her grandson. She says, in life, there are two wolves
Speaker 1: inside of us that are always at battle. One is
Speaker 1: a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery
Speaker 1: and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which
Speaker 1: represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the
Speaker 1: grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second.
Speaker 1: He looks at his grandmother. He says, well, grandmother, which
Speaker 1: one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to start off by asking you what
Speaker 1: that parable means to you in your life and in
Speaker 1: the work that you do. Well, I want to prayer
Speaker 1: about that. Oddly enough, I know you did. That parable
Speaker 1: means a great deal to me. First of all, because
Speaker 1: the wolf is such a powerful animal, both symbolically and physically,
Speaker 1: and I think the instinct to give in to the
Speaker 1: need to attack is so powerful, and I think those
Speaker 1: are primal instincts, and it takes so much to make
Speaker 1: the decision to you align yourselves with the higher instincts
Speaker 1: of the soul, the higher graces, to realize that to
Speaker 1: attack is to give into your fears, and those decisions
Speaker 1: are only destructive. The parable that wisdom is eternal. It's brilliant.
Speaker 1: That's why I love that. I love that. Thank you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I was definitely struck by in the book as
Speaker 1: I read that part about the wolf in it, you know,
Speaker 1: talking about two wolves in a dark cave. Absolutely, absolutely,
Speaker 1: and I don't think there's anybody who can't relate to that.
Speaker 1: I think every single person knows what it is to
Speaker 1: feel as though they've been abandoned in a dark cave
Speaker 1: by something in life that's happened to them. And it's
Speaker 1: a terrifying feeling. It's terrifying to feel powerless, that something
Speaker 1: has rendered you in a powerless situation. And I think
Speaker 1: that is among the most frightening feelings that you can
Speaker 1: confront in life by far. Yeah, it really is. So
Speaker 1: your book is all about, as the title suggests intimate
Speaker 1: conversations with the Divine, and they're really your prayers to God.
Speaker 1: And I was struck by just how you brought every
Speaker 1: part of you to God, every concern, every worry, every doubt,
Speaker 1: every fear. Say a little bit more about that. Well,
Speaker 1: my own spiritual journey has taken me well beyond the
Speaker 1: idea of an off planet God that exists someplace in
Speaker 1: the clouds, into this deep and profound understanding that the
Speaker 1: nature of God is experiential and is very present, and
Speaker 1: that for me, for me, I feel that I live
Speaker 1: in the atmosphere of all that is created, that everything
Speaker 1: is God. And I don't mean that in a like
Speaker 1: physical sense you pick up a cup and say, is
Speaker 1: this God? This is a mystical principle that all that
Speaker 1: is creation is an expression of the Divine, that the
Speaker 1: Divine cannot exist outside creation. So this is a very
Speaker 1: rich mystical precept and that the nature of God is law,
Speaker 1: that all things operate within the laws of nature. And
Speaker 1: as I started to deeply understand that, I realized that
Speaker 1: this relationship that I was developing with the Divine became
Speaker 1: very conversant, that it was ever present within me and
Speaker 1: around me, and it became very intimate. It became the
Speaker 1: what I would use his intimate and that I began
Speaker 1: to understand the power of prayer, That prayer was not
Speaker 1: this magical thing, you know, make things go get better.
Speaker 1: I understood that the nature of God within our lives
Speaker 1: is organic, that the Divine works within us through us,
Speaker 1: through the laws of nature, through our power, within the
Speaker 1: power of life, through the power of our attitudes as
Speaker 1: they change, their creative force changes within the forces around us,
Speaker 1: so that when we pray, give me the courage to
Speaker 1: do something, the thoughts within us that need to change
Speaker 1: our change, the inspiration that we need to have to
Speaker 1: change our fears is how Heaven works with us. The
Speaker 1: nature of God is so profoundly, beautifully organic and ever present,
Speaker 1: and it just made sense to me. One of things
Speaker 1: that I was really struck by was similar to this,
Speaker 1: As you say in the book. At one point, when
Speaker 1: we pray, we ask the Divine to show us how
Speaker 1: to see. And I thought that was such a powerful idea,
Speaker 1: that one of the main purposes of prayer is to
Speaker 1: instead of our sort of senses, let's align the Divine
Speaker 1: with my view of the world. But it's really a
Speaker 1: different one of like maybe I can see with a
Speaker 1: different set of eyes precisely. I mean, when you really
Speaker 1: get that this world was here long before we were
Speaker 1: and it will be here long after we're gone. We
Speaker 1: are little visitors here. The name of the game is
Speaker 1: for us to get the rules of life here, and
Speaker 1: that our job is to learn the rules, not to
Speaker 1: have life serve us, but for us to serve life.
Speaker 1: That is the name of the game here. And that
Speaker 1: the way of prayer is tell me what you want
Speaker 1: me to do while I'm here, that I am in
Speaker 1: service to this it is not in service to me,
Speaker 1: and that if you live with this attitude that everything
Speaker 1: here is about serving me because I'm so special, you
Speaker 1: are going to suffer. Absolutely. Listeners have heard me say
Speaker 1: this before, but it's a phrase that I've heard often
Speaker 1: from yoga teachers. And I'm not picking on yoga teachers,
Speaker 1: and I know what they mean by it, but it
Speaker 1: always grates on me a little lot of here, which
Speaker 1: is let go of everything that doesn't serve you. I
Speaker 1: understand what we're saying here, like don't carry around baggage
Speaker 1: that's no good for you. I get it, But it
Speaker 1: points to this idea that everything is here to serve
Speaker 1: me versus the other way around, which I do a
Speaker 1: lot better in life when I orient myself towards one
Speaker 1: of my surveying versus how well are things going for me?
Speaker 1: Isn't that the truth? Isn't that the truth when you
Speaker 1: really really get that life is very brief, it's very brief,
Speaker 1: that every day is really a gift, and that, in
Speaker 1: the words of Thomas Merton, this day will never come again.
Speaker 1: I will never see this sunrise again, and I will
Speaker 1: never see this sunset again, and I will never see
Speaker 1: the faces of people I love to look exactly like
Speaker 1: this again. And when you become appreciative of this type
Speaker 1: of truth, that I will never have an opportunity to
Speaker 1: say a kind word to you again. And that's a
Speaker 1: big deal. When I start to put my life into
Speaker 1: those gifts, that I have an opportunity to say a
Speaker 1: kind word to you, and I'm not going to blow that.
Speaker 1: That that's a big deal. That that's what a really
Speaker 1: big deal is. One of the things that you mentioned
Speaker 1: early on in the book is you talk about that
Speaker 1: we're living in a transition right We're letting go a
Speaker 1: lot of the mythologies of the past. We're evolving into
Speaker 1: a new myth but that even though our cultural myths
Speaker 1: are changing or outdated, are yearning to be acted to.
Speaker 1: The divine doesn't go away never. So what do you
Speaker 1: think is important for us to individually be looking at
Speaker 1: as we deal with the fact that the existing myths
Speaker 1: that sustained human society for a long time are falling away?
Speaker 1: How do we find our way into a new relationship
Speaker 1: with the powers that be so to speak? Well, in
Speaker 1: a sense, we're witnessing how we're doing that, and we're
Speaker 1: traveling in this collective transformation from the breakdown of the
Speaker 1: Abrahamic mythologies, for example, but we haven't yet identified what
Speaker 1: it is we will collectively believe. And let me say
Speaker 1: that it's worth appreciating where we are right now because
Speaker 1: it's so awesome, and I mean awesome in terms of
Speaker 1: to be filled with all that in this moment, we are,
Speaker 1: for the first time in the history of civilization that
Speaker 1: I know of, and I'm a pretty advien student of history,
Speaker 1: we are entering the galactic community, Eric, We're entering galactic
Speaker 1: mythology time, okay, And that alone is rendering our scriptural
Speaker 1: mythologies outdated, okay, But simultaneously, our mythologies that have held
Speaker 1: us together for centuries are also outdated because they're biologically threatening,
Speaker 1: meaning that the teaching of separatism. Each of the Abrahamic religions,
Speaker 1: for example, believe themselves to be the chosen people. This
Speaker 1: is not just in Judaism, but Christianity, in Islam. They
Speaker 1: all have this kind of current in them and the
Speaker 1: idea of being the chosen people, and that in order
Speaker 1: to believe in this they have to be aggressive towards
Speaker 1: that person, this tribalism that has become characteristic of religions.
Speaker 1: If I put a different hat on and go into
Speaker 1: my work for decades in health and healing, here we
Speaker 1: are also in this age of consciousness in which wholism
Speaker 1: has become a creed, in which we are recognizing that
Speaker 1: the template of body mind, spirit of becoming whole is
Speaker 1: a fundamental creed in health and healing. How can you
Speaker 1: have wholism as an organic health creed and have in
Speaker 1: your spiritual theological template this idea of separatism as your
Speaker 1: theological creed. You have got to find a spirituality, a
Speaker 1: spiritual truth that aligns to your bio spiritual theology, that
Speaker 1: in fact all is one. We are now a sending
Speaker 1: to mystical truths, where in fact we have to get
Speaker 1: that this is a bio spiritual ecological era where we
Speaker 1: recognize in fact that the nature of God is law,
Speaker 1: that religion is a political arm of God, but that
Speaker 1: we're finally transcending and going into the truth that the
Speaker 1: mystical level of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddha, Hinduism were all laws,
Speaker 1: and they were all the mystical laws, from Pythagoras, through Plato,
Speaker 1: through Judaism, through the Kabbalah, through what Jesus taught, the
Speaker 1: Sufi tradition. They are all just the laws of the universe.
Speaker 1: And if I were to sit and teach you the
Speaker 1: cosmic laws and say which tradition do you think this
Speaker 1: came from, you would be hard pressed to say, well,
Speaker 1: I think it's but I could be Buddhism, but it
Speaker 1: could be this, because they all taught the same. And
Speaker 1: this is what this great transformation is about, the shedding
Speaker 1: of separatism and the emergence of holism, in which we
Speaker 1: get that the cosmic design and the nature of God
Speaker 1: is this organic truth that all life breathes together. We
Speaker 1: are all one and this is a bio spiritual living
Speaker 1: theology that is in our blood and bones and in
Speaker 1: each other. Yeah, that's a beautiful way to say it.
Speaker 1: And that that idea that we wouldn't be able to
Speaker 1: identify the tradition all this. Huxley called it the perennial wisdom, right,
Speaker 1: It's this idea that there's these ideas that show up
Speaker 1: in all these traditions, that are consistent to all these
Speaker 1: different traditions. I want to touch a little bit more
Speaker 1: on this idea. You say at one point that we're
Speaker 1: built for belief. Belief shapes the way we see divine
Speaker 1: power in our role within it. This is the first
Speaker 1: time in the history of humanity when the majority of
Speaker 1: people do not know what they believe in. It's a
Speaker 1: phenomenon that's never existed before. So most of us don't
Speaker 1: realize the psychic trauma it puts us through. And I
Speaker 1: think that is certainly part of what we are seeing.
Speaker 1: I mean, and I think if we look at this,
Speaker 1: there's some real benefit to shaking off these myths of separatism.
Speaker 1: My religion is the right way, you're the right kind
Speaker 1: of person, you're the saved kind of person. But we
Speaker 1: are in a transition where I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people are stuck in the middle. And I do think
Speaker 1: that point that you say of you know, we don't
Speaker 1: realize the psychic trauma that it's having to a lot
Speaker 1: of people, you know, the age of meaninglessness, and it
Speaker 1: runs deeper than people realize. Eric. It runs into not
Speaker 1: just don't you believe? But what you have faith in?
Speaker 1: This is where people run into real crises because for
Speaker 1: years this runs so deep, and it runs into territory
Speaker 1: that people find uncomfortable talking about. To w When I
Speaker 1: ask people, so what do you have faith in? It's
Speaker 1: easier for people to tell me with great conviction what
Speaker 1: they do not have faith in, what they do not
Speaker 1: have faith in, But they cannot tell me what they
Speaker 1: do have faith in. And I wondered for the longest time,
Speaker 1: now why is that? Why is that? And as I
Speaker 1: really investigated this, I saw some real common patterns, and
Speaker 1: one is when you lack the capacity to have faith,
Speaker 1: to really struggle with faith, it spills over and that
Speaker 1: it's a whole mechanism. It's not about not having faith
Speaker 1: in God. It is a mechanism and you in which
Speaker 1: your capacity to have faith in yourself is rusty, and therefore,
Speaker 1: if you don't have faith in yourself, having faith in
Speaker 1: another person is virtually impossible. Because you know that if
Speaker 1: you can't even keep your word to yourself, if you
Speaker 1: say something to yourself like, well, I'll just start exercising tomorrow,
Speaker 1: I'll do that. I just know I'll quit drinking tomorrow,
Speaker 1: and you know right away you don't mean it. If
Speaker 1: someone says to Eric, I have to confide in you,
Speaker 1: would you keep this to yourself? Could I confide in you?
Speaker 1: Do have room in your heart so that I could
Speaker 1: put something in your heart that I can't hold in
Speaker 1: mind anymore? Would you carry it for me? And you
Speaker 1: say yeah, and when you keep it confidential, and all
Speaker 1: the while you're thinking, wou'd I tell this person? So
Speaker 1: you don't even trust yourself enough to be able to
Speaker 1: give your word to someone, to know that your word
Speaker 1: is integrists, that your faith and trust in yourself is
Speaker 1: that fragile, that while someone is asking you to keep
Speaker 1: your word, you're already breaking your word, And that these
Speaker 1: endless little acts of betrayal that people no longer even
Speaker 1: recognize as active lives and betrayal they even recognize it.
Speaker 1: And it's all these little threads that break away, chip
Speaker 1: away at integrity, at faith, at trust. And here's the
Speaker 1: deeper thing, Eric, Not only does it make a person
Speaker 1: lose respect for themselves if they ever had it. That's
Speaker 1: why they think that the job of respect should come
Speaker 1: from others, because they have none for themselves. Okay, but
Speaker 1: they also find it impossible to trust others because they
Speaker 1: know they're not trustworthy. So then how is it that
Speaker 1: if they can't even trust themselves a body that they
Speaker 1: can physically touch, much less someone sitting across from them,
Speaker 1: how do you thing they could possibly trust this invisible
Speaker 1: thing called God or the divine or whatever they want
Speaker 1: to call it, that this grace called faith, this grace
Speaker 1: called trust, which is so essential to our well being,
Speaker 1: so essential to our managing life without depression, without anxiety,
Speaker 1: without suicide, so essential to our getting by, so essential
Speaker 1: to our having faith that I will find a way
Speaker 1: I'll get through this without faith or trust. How could
Speaker 1: they possibly when they don't even trust themselves, possibly believe
Speaker 1: that there is a grace that comes from a place
Speaker 1: they can't trust at all? Do you see how the
Speaker 1: crisis comes? And here I will add to this. I'm
Speaker 1: going to add something. We've got to think about it,
Speaker 1: and then you get it that more people have faith
Speaker 1: in darkness in the dark than in the light, and
Speaker 1: they've grown a customed to trusting darkness. They've grown accustomed
Speaker 1: two feeling safe in darkness and not in the light.
Speaker 1: They fear the truth, but they're okay with the dark,
Speaker 1: and that's something people have to deal with when it
Speaker 1: comes to healing. No one in any of my workshops
Speaker 1: that I have done for years and years and years,
Speaker 1: and we've just met, so you don't know me, and
Speaker 1: you don't know my history or how many things I've
Speaker 1: done are taught. But I assure you I've taught a
Speaker 1: lot of places, and nobody Eric and all my life
Speaker 1: has ever come to a workshop of mine and said
Speaker 1: I'm here because I'm in a spiritual crisis. I'm here
Speaker 1: because my conscience. Conscience is heavy. They'll say I'm here
Speaker 1: because of consciousness. What that hell? But conscience is the
Speaker 1: thing they should be there for, because I can't deal
Speaker 1: with the choices I make because I know I should
Speaker 1: have done this, but I did this. It's quite astonishing
Speaker 1: to me. What you bring up is a really interesting point,
Speaker 1: and it makes me think about a bunch of things
Speaker 1: that point about. You know, exercise, I see that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm a behavior coach, so I work with people all
Speaker 1: the time, and I often say that the fact that
Speaker 1: you're exercising or not exercising every day is important sure
Speaker 1: for your health. The bigger consequences that we stopped believing
Speaker 1: in our ability to change. Like you said, I start
Speaker 1: to say, well, I'm going to do this, but I
Speaker 1: don't even believe myself anymore. You know, repairing that is
Speaker 1: a really interesting and tricky thing. And it also made
Speaker 1: me think a little bit about coming to recovery. You
Speaker 1: don't know me, either of them recovering alcoholic drug addict.
Speaker 1: And you know, I came into recovery with certainly no
Speaker 1: faith in myself. How well do I'm fifty? I originally
Speaker 1: came into recovery at twenty four, so long time ago.
Speaker 1: You see this happen though, You see people come in
Speaker 1: and I got sober and twelve step recovery, and twelve
Speaker 1: step recovery is very much the belief is that there's
Speaker 1: a power greater than yourself that will get you sober,
Speaker 1: and there is a temporary suspension of I believe in
Speaker 1: a power greater than me over my own faith, you know.
Speaker 1: But I also think that in a healthy recovery, our
Speaker 1: own faith comes along and we start to trust in ourselves.
Speaker 1: It's sort of both those things have to happen. We
Speaker 1: have to do both. We have to develop our faith
Speaker 1: in life I think again, use the term you want
Speaker 1: to use for that odd life whatever, and we have
Speaker 1: to develop our faith in ourselves. They both have to
Speaker 1: come along. Yes, that's how you do it. Yes, I
Speaker 1: am hugging you. Can you feel me hugging? I can
Speaker 1: thank you. So I want to talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about prayer because that's a big part of this book.
Speaker 1: And you've got a line before we go too much
Speaker 1: further into this that I really love because a lot
Speaker 1: of the book you're you're wrestling with the things that
Speaker 1: all of us who are trying to create some deeper
Speaker 1: connection wrestle with, which is like, yikes, there's an awful
Speaker 1: lot of terrible things that happen out here in the world.
Speaker 1: Goodness gracious, what do I do with that? I have faith,
Speaker 1: but now I'm terrified. I believe in higher purpose, and
Speaker 1: yet I see it lacking everywhere. And one of the
Speaker 1: things that you say, and I think this is really good,
Speaker 1: is that there are no logical answers when it comes
Speaker 1: to mystical matters, none at all. That is you know,
Speaker 1: again and again in my p I have said, I'm
Speaker 1: going to talk to you because I need to talk
Speaker 1: to you. You don't need to talk to me, but
Speaker 1: I need to talk to you. And it calms me
Speaker 1: down to talk to you. And maybe that's what grace
Speaker 1: feels like, because I don't get calmed down when I
Speaker 1: talked to a lot of human beings, but when I
Speaker 1: talk to you, I get calmed down because I need
Speaker 1: to recognize again and again the higher truth that there
Speaker 1: is no logic two mystical matters, and there is no
Speaker 1: justice in the immediate world the way I want to
Speaker 1: see it, and I will never get the answers I want.
Speaker 1: And at least when I scream at you, and I
Speaker 1: scream at you all the time, I feel better and
Speaker 1: you don't scream back. But what I do get back
Speaker 1: is a sense of calm, that it's okay to scream
Speaker 1: at you, and that somehow or other I get that
Speaker 1: it is human foolishness, fear, darkness, that creates all this.
Speaker 1: It's not you. And every time I hear people say,
Speaker 1: if there's a God, this wouldn't happen. No, if we
Speaker 1: had a God in us and we got how God worked,
Speaker 1: this wouldn't happen. This is us, this is our handiwork. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a story I love. It goes like this. It says,
Speaker 1: past the seeker as he prayed, came the crippled and
Speaker 1: the beggar and the beaten, and seeing them, he cried, great, God,
Speaker 1: how is it that a loving creator can see such
Speaker 1: things and yet do nothing about them? And God said,
Speaker 1: I did do something. I made you. I've just always
Speaker 1: loved that idea because it sort of turns that like, well,
Speaker 1: why is there bad things in the universe. It turns
Speaker 1: it back to, yeah, there's bad things in the universe,
Speaker 1: but there's also the capacity to respond with compassion, and
Speaker 1: that that's on us. That's on us, if we weren't
Speaker 1: so afraid to empower other people, if we weren't so
Speaker 1: afraid to share. I walked down the street. This is
Speaker 1: one of the things I tried to point out when
Speaker 1: I wrote Invisible Acts of Power. Believe me, I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that to push a book. But this is what
Speaker 1: inspired me to do this, Eric, I knew. I got
Speaker 1: this feeling that we are wired. We're designed to sense
Speaker 1: the vulnerability and other people are lower. Intuitive wiring is
Speaker 1: all about our gut instinct to protect ourselves, our gut
Speaker 1: instinct like should I eat this? Should I walk down
Speaker 1: the street. But our hier wiring, our higher wiring, is
Speaker 1: all about the other. How can I care for you?
Speaker 1: How can I care for you? What is it you need?
Speaker 1: And these two are often in collision because if we
Speaker 1: don't work on the management of our heart, we will
Speaker 1: resent our own higher wiring will resent it, and we
Speaker 1: will try and turn it down, turn it off, we'll
Speaker 1: try to repress it. And I see this in small
Speaker 1: and large ways when someone walks down the street and
Speaker 1: they see a homeless person, and homelessness is my devotion,
Speaker 1: and they'll look the other way when they see a
Speaker 1: homeless person because they sense that person and they sense
Speaker 1: the vulnerability and that person, but they don't want to
Speaker 1: so they look the other way because they can feel it,
Speaker 1: they can feel that human being. And then they'll say
Speaker 1: things like why don't they get a job? I have
Speaker 1: heard them say I have at more money than I
Speaker 1: do you think that person is more money than you are?
Speaker 1: You out of your mind. They don't want to feel
Speaker 1: that person. That's how attuned we are to each other, Eric,
Speaker 1: That's how attuned we are. Our upper level is about
Speaker 1: our mutual survival, and our lower level is about our
Speaker 1: personal You reference one of your main teachers, Teresa of Avila,
Speaker 1: but you talk about something that I really like that
Speaker 1: she mentions, And she mentions that we have a reptile
Speaker 1: that Dwells referred to as the gut dwelling reptile, which
Speaker 1: will fight to keep us in our smallest attitude, reducing
Speaker 1: us the superstitious ways of thinking, but also really focusing
Speaker 1: only on our own survival. That frightened part of us
Speaker 1: well well. Teresa says that all our negativities and all
Speaker 1: our fears, she calls them all reptiles, and she says,
Speaker 1: reptiles get in. And when a reptile gets in, it
Speaker 1: see's better at night than you do, which is why
Speaker 1: reptiles haunt you at night. They win through the darkness,
Speaker 1: They win in the night battle. They keep you up
Speaker 1: at night. They become iguanas you know, they become kimono dragons.
Speaker 1: And so little gecks, and it's like a Buddha. Buddha says,
Speaker 1: these things are illusions. You have to become strong enough
Speaker 1: to recognize I'm not letting that thought form in me.
Speaker 1: Someone says, you know you better, you better, you better
Speaker 1: do this, or else you better invest in this, or
Speaker 1: you're gonna lose all your money. You better not go
Speaker 1: near that person. What will people say if they see
Speaker 1: you hanging out with that person? All of that is
Speaker 1: nothing but reptiles and the strength of soul that you
Speaker 1: have to have to keep those kinds of reptilian thoughts
Speaker 1: at a stance so that you can manage your own
Speaker 1: consciousness and conscience with power and not become contaminated by
Speaker 1: lesser reptilian thoughts. That's where prayer comes in. That's where
Speaker 1: you have to pray and say, keep me in a
Speaker 1: field of grace, Keep that away from me, that is darkness,
Speaker 1: that is evil. Just blasp me with grace. And sometimes
Speaker 1: I have been with people when they've started to talk
Speaker 1: and they slip into this negative garbage, and I've stayed
Speaker 1: right in front of them and I said, would you
Speaker 1: excuse me for a moment. I don't go anywhere except
Speaker 1: inside of myself and inwardly. I immediately go into a
Speaker 1: prayer and I'll say, download me with some badass grace
Speaker 1: right now, God, because really I need to be in
Speaker 1: a field of grace right now. Just get just get
Speaker 1: me some grace. And then I re engage in the conversation.
Speaker 1: And what does that grace help you do? What it does? It?
Speaker 1: It keeps me center. It keeps me centered because it
Speaker 1: keeps me from being a smarty pants. It keeps me
Speaker 1: from smarting off. It keeps me centered, keeps me in
Speaker 1: my sense of humor, which is my greatest asset. It
Speaker 1: keeps me where I belong. It keeps me on the
Speaker 1: right side of grace instead of the wrong side of
Speaker 1: the fence. It keeps me in the impersonal archetypal realm.
Speaker 1: It keeps me where I belong. Because I think what
Speaker 1: we realize is in a lot of these cases that
Speaker 1: it is fear. You know, people are afraid. You know,
Speaker 1: people are often very afraid, and that's that's part of
Speaker 1: the desire for survival comes from from fear. I think
Speaker 1: we think it's okay to dismiss somebody's actions because of fear,
Speaker 1: as if well, you know, people No, it's not. Eric, No,
Speaker 1: it's not what took place at our capital. You could say, well,
Speaker 1: that's your fear of what white supremacy that was okay
Speaker 1: because they were afraid that people of color might begin
Speaker 1: to have a decent life. Are you kidding me? There's
Speaker 1: nothing okay about that fear or not. So there's sometimes
Speaker 1: when you say your fear is not an excuse for
Speaker 1: what you did. You knew better. So now we're going
Speaker 1: to get to the place where you have to own
Speaker 1: what you did. I'm not letting you off the hook.
Speaker 1: You're not five years old. Fears what I let a
Speaker 1: five year old off the hook for. But you're a
Speaker 1: forty fifty year old human being, and I'm sorry you
Speaker 1: have to now say I'm using my fear as a
Speaker 1: way of becoming violent when I don't get what I want. Right. So,
Speaker 1: what's the role that you see for forgiveness with that
Speaker 1: sort of stuff, the thing at the capital or anything else.
Speaker 1: What's the role? What does your prayer life talk to
Speaker 1: you about? Where does forgiveness come in? I think forgiveness
Speaker 1: is the first truly mystical thing we do for ourselves
Speaker 1: because it's not rational, it's not rational it's not reasonable.
Speaker 1: Forgiveness is not a rational reasonable thing to do. Everything
Speaker 1: in us is wait a minute here, you know, wait
Speaker 1: a minute here, So forgiveness is. I will certainly deal
Speaker 1: with all of the rage, and I will not rage
Speaker 1: against you. But there is justice, and that also has
Speaker 1: to be dealt with. But I will not bring my
Speaker 1: rage to increase so that justice becomes injustice. I will
Speaker 1: bring understanding and justice together. And that's the wisdom of Solomon.
Speaker 1: You know, I think that you almost have to look
Speaker 1: at even in your own life, and the things that
Speaker 1: happened to all of us, whether things are theft or divorce,
Speaker 1: or whatever things happen in our lives, whatever thing's happened. Healing,
Speaker 1: I have learned, requires the stage of witness. We have
Speaker 1: to have a witness, at the stage of the holy witness,
Speaker 1: where if something happened to you, Eric, you would require
Speaker 1: that someone witnesses, that someone sit and listen to you,
Speaker 1: tell your story, Tell what happened. Because what happened to
Speaker 1: you was so hurtful, so harmful. You need someone to
Speaker 1: hear that, not because you want vengeance, but because for
Speaker 1: you it was so Where did this come from? How
Speaker 1: could this happen. You have to say that out loud.
Speaker 1: You have to have someone not because you want that
Speaker 1: person to say, oh my God, but because you want
Speaker 1: someone's heart to receive that, and just listen and bear
Speaker 1: witness to that, to bear witness. The second stage is
Speaker 1: that because we do live in a society of civil laws,
Speaker 1: if there are civil laws that need to be dealt with,
Speaker 1: they need to be dealt with. And the third stage
Speaker 1: is what needs to be forgiven is a higher question
Speaker 1: that you need to deal with spiritually. You must also
Speaker 1: forgive what needs for your own sake, and that requires
Speaker 1: you realizing this was at a soul level, not personal.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you say to God, why did
Speaker 1: this happen to me, You're going down the wrong avenue.
Speaker 1: You're saying to God, this happened to me. I don't
Speaker 1: want to carry this story in me for all the eternity.
Speaker 1: So I have to let this go. And it is huge,
Speaker 1: but I have to let this go because if I don't,
Speaker 1: I will relive it with every human being I meet.
Speaker 1: I will retell it and I will punish people, and
Speaker 1: I will try and take this rage and hurt and
Speaker 1: give it back to them to say see how hurt
Speaker 1: I am. This is why I will forgive, because I
Speaker 1: want that taken. I'll keep the story. I'll keep the story,
Speaker 1: but I don't want the fire, and forgiveness is releasing
Speaker 1: the fire. I do not want this experience to turn
Speaker 1: me into that person, and forgiving is letting go of
Speaker 1: the rage in me and for that person. But I'll
Speaker 1: keep the story. If you don't know, is always good
Speaker 1: to keep the story. And we're nearing the end of
Speaker 1: our time here. But one of things that shows up
Speaker 1: over and over, and you've referenced it in something you
Speaker 1: said in the last couple of minutes, which I think
Speaker 1: shows up in a bunch of part to this book,
Speaker 1: which is this idea that this stuff isn't personal, That
Speaker 1: we are very focused on our personal agenda what we
Speaker 1: want out of the world, but that's not what spirituality
Speaker 1: and mysticism and all that is for. Correct. Do you
Speaker 1: talk a lot about how it's not a personal thing,
Speaker 1: And I think at one point you say something along
Speaker 1: the lines of Heaven is not interested in our happiness? Correct?
Speaker 1: Say more about that? Well, you know the whole purpose
Speaker 1: of your life. You weren't born to be happy. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you want to be happy. Be happy, But your
Speaker 1: journey is more about everybody was born to learn about
Speaker 1: the creative power of their soul, to learn about that
Speaker 1: and to learn that the more I create on behalf
Speaker 1: of others, the more I'm going to benefit from that creation,
Speaker 1: the more some how other, the more seeds I sew
Speaker 1: and feed more people, the more harmony I generate. And
Speaker 1: that is going to somehow or other benefit me. I
Speaker 1: gotta figure out that formula. And getting to that formula.
Speaker 1: For a lot of people, they're going to have a
Speaker 1: rough runway to lift off because their runway may not
Speaker 1: be already paved. And if you have to pave your
Speaker 1: own runway, it's a rough beginning. And that is true.
Speaker 1: But the text of life is all about learning that
Speaker 1: what we give is better than what we take. And secondly,
Speaker 1: that arising tide lifts all ships. So if we think
Speaker 1: we're in this just for ourselves, we're going to be
Speaker 1: gravely disappointed. And so if we started to say the prayer,
Speaker 1: what can I do for others? Tell me what you want,
Speaker 1: You're gonna find your life directed in a very different way. Yep.
Speaker 1: That is probably the most foundational prayer I discovered in recovery,
Speaker 1: and one that I keep with me close, which is
Speaker 1: just guide and direct me, guide and directed me what
Speaker 1: am I here to do? And when I'm oriented that way,
Speaker 1: I do a lot better than when I'm oriented towards.
Speaker 1: How am I feeling right now? How are you feeling
Speaker 1: right now? And I really don't care get busy because
Speaker 1: your feelings change moment to moment. They absolutely do. Well.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking the time to come on.
Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed having this conversation. It's already forty six
Speaker 1: minutes like that, so my pleasure it was. It was
Speaker 1: a real pleasure to meet you. Same here. Delightful, Take care,
Speaker 1: stay healthy. Thank you you too. If what you just
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