1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:02,559 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 2: A little boy just four vanishes five years ago without 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 2: family realizing he's gone. Tonight, Where's Hayden? I'm Nancy Grace. 4 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 2: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. 5 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 3: Where is four year old Hayden man Is from Indiana? 6 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 3: The young child reportedly last seen at a family Christmas 7 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 3: gathering in twenty nineteen. He's not been seen since. 8 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 2: Mystery swirling around a little boy just four years. 9 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: Old at the time he was last seen live. 10 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 2: How is it that family doesn't realize he's missing for 11 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 2: five years? Police now play catch up in a missing 12 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: child case. Let it sink in. Four year old Hayden 13 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 2: was last seen at a Christmas gathering five years ago. 14 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 2: Any and all leeds are probably cold by now. How 15 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 2: can we find Hayden? Let's see pictures of Hayden right now? 16 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 2: This is all coming out of Munsey, Indiana. This four 17 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 2: year old little boy, last scene five years ago. Hayden 18 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 2: Ian Lee Manus joining me an all star panel to 19 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 2: make sense of what we are hearing tonight. 20 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: That is from the Awareness Ink on Facebook. 21 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 2: Everybody, if you want to find out more about Hayden 22 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 2: and how you can help find him. Is Hayden Mannus, 23 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 2: age four, Indiana. 24 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: First of all, take a listen to this. 25 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 4: Recent reports of a missing child have many monthsy Indiana 26 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 4: residents asking how does a little boy disappear without anyone realizing? 27 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 4: For nearly five years, Hayden Manus, now just a few 28 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 4: months from his tenth birthday, was last seen in early 29 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 4: twenty twenty. The little boy believed to be living with 30 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 4: his father, Dustin Manus, but a chance run in between 31 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 4: two relatives reveals Mannus has told several conflicting stories about 32 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 4: Hayden's whereabouts. 33 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 2: Joining me in All Star Palell, But first I want 34 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: to go to Brian Fitzgibbons is joining us. He is 35 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 2: the director of Operations for USPA Nationwide Security. He leads 36 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: a team of highly trained investigator specializing and finding missing 37 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 2: people at Uspasecurity dot Com. Brian in a nutshell, This 38 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 2: trail is so cold, but Crime Stories is not giving up. 39 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: On trying to find out where is Hayden? 40 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 2: Why does every hour, the hour, the minutes actually matter? 41 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: And now we're looking at five years before the family 42 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: realizes he's it is saying, I mean. 43 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 5: So often, Nancy, we talk about forty eight hours being 44 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 5: a long time in a missing child case. In this case, 45 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 5: we're dealing with five years. So we're constructing a new 46 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 5: timeline now as this show airs and gets national attention, 47 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 5: a new timeline is going to begin of when people 48 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 5: connected to this case begin talking about Hayden again. 49 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 2: Joining me in addition to Brian fitz Gibbons, an incredible 50 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 2: panel joining us tonight special guest Eric Hoffman. He is 51 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 2: currently a prosecuting attorney in the forty six Judicial Circuit 52 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 2: Indiana and the Delaware County Prosecutor's Office. He has been 53 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 2: investigating this case for so long, and because you're in 54 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 2: the middle of an ongoing investigation, I understand that your 55 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: hands are somewhat tied and everything you can say, But 56 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: let me ask you a few general questions, Eric Hoffman, 57 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 2: as fitz Gibbons just told us, literally, it's hard to 58 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 2: understand unless you're in the middle of it. Every minute 59 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 2: counts when a child goes missing. Just think about if 60 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: the child's in a car, for instance. 61 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: Sixty mph, sixty. 62 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: Miles an hour, that child is getting further and further 63 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: and further away by the minute. 64 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: Have you ever seen a case before. 65 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: This one where the family didn't realize the child was 66 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 2: missing for five years. 67 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 6: No, No, I haven't, Nancy, And I think, as you said, 68 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 6: each passing minute, particularly four years, makes the case and 69 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 6: the investigation exponentially. 70 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 2: If you know or think you know anything about the 71 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 2: disappearance of Hayden, please dial Delaware County Sheriff's Department seven 72 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 2: sixty five seven four seven seven eight eight five. Now 73 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 2: hold on, let's back it up just a moment. Let's 74 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 2: back it up. 75 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: Joining me right now, Crime and Justice reporter from. 76 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 2: The Star Press, Douglas Walker, joining us out of Muncy. Douglas, 77 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. This case has been 78 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: consuming you. 79 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 7: Why just see very odd circumstances that there would be 80 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 7: such an incredible delay in making police aware of the 81 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 7: fact that this child is missing. It just appears to 82 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 7: baffle people as to how that could even possibly. 83 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: Happen, you know, Douglas. By the way, guys, you're seeing 84 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: a little graduation photo. 85 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 2: It must have been from pre K pre pre pre 86 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 2: K because he went missing at age four. That is 87 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 2: from Hayden Manus's family to news outlets, Douglas, I tend 88 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 2: to as a crime victim project experiences that I had 89 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 2: or crime victims that I represented, practicing law for thirteen years, 90 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 2: most of it in intercity Atlanta, prosecuting felonies. But let 91 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 2: me tell you, Douglas, not long after the twins were born, 92 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 2: they were about nineteen months they just started walking, okay, 93 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,679 Speaker 2: and we were in one of those giant superstores babies 94 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 2: or us, I think it was. And some mom had, 95 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 2: you know, guilted me out at the community pool because 96 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 2: she made her own organic sunscreen. So I was trying 97 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 2: to find organic sun tanlation, right, and I had the 98 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: twins with me. I was alone with them, and I 99 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 2: was on the very bottom shelf and it went from 100 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 2: floor all the way to the ceiling practically. And I 101 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 2: stood up and I said, well, twins, I don't see 102 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 2: anything like that here. And there was Lucy, my little girl, 103 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 2: and no John David. I looked around for him. I 104 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 2: couldn't find him. 105 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: I picked Lucy up like a football and started running. 106 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 2: I can still hear my tennis shoes on that lineolium 107 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 2: floor and screaming, locked the doors, my baby is missing, 108 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 2: screaming help me. 109 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: I didn't wait five years to say John David's missing. 110 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 2: I found him. He was playing a game, so I 111 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 2: didn't fuss at him. I didn't want to traumatize him. 112 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: I was traumatized. 113 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: But five years when did you first learn about this case? Douglas? 114 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 7: The family of the missing boy initially took it to 115 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 7: an Indianapolis television station. It's my understanding that perhaps sheriff's 116 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 7: deputies would have preferred waiting to make things public, but 117 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 7: that didn't happen. 118 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: The wait who wanted to wait to make it public? 119 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 7: The Sheriff's department, which is the primary investigator here, had 120 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 7: not made an announcement concerning this. They found out that 121 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 7: the boy was missing in September and we're investigating, and 122 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 7: apparently thought it would be in their best interests to 123 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 7: not make an announcement, as they attempted to talk to 124 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 7: people somewhat quietly because so much time had passed. So 125 00:07:58,120 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 7: at any rate, I. 126 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 2: Think, I say, that is against everything that I know 127 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 2: about finding missing people. 128 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: I don't understand that at all. 129 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 2: Eric Hoffman, hypothetically speaking, why would l E law enforcement 130 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: want to wait to make public a missing child? 131 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 6: I think the investigation had just begun. It was September 132 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 6: fifth of twenty twenty four. The Sheriff's department brought me 133 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 6: in on the case and we discussed it and interviews 134 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 6: were ongoing. I think the information was coming in fast 135 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 6: at that point. Certain things had to be checked, Certain 136 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 6: people's credibility had to be coroborated before we were ready 137 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 6: to go public and say this child is missing. 138 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 2: Okay, Eric Hoffman, I know that there must be something 139 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 2: you're not able to disclose, because when a child is 140 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: missing and there's a chance to recover the child, that 141 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 2: is a pr believe to try to find the child. Now, 142 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 2: that's according to my experience and my great mentor, Mark Class, 143 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 2: who's daughter Pauli went missing, and he actually school's parents 144 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 2: about what to do if their child goes missing, and 145 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 2: the number one thing is get it out on the media. 146 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 2: But you're telling me, Ellie, law enforcement wanted to wigh 147 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: witnesses credibility. 148 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: I'm trying to read between the lines what that could. 149 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 2: Possibly mean about not learning everyone that the child was missing. 150 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: And I know your record. 151 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 2: You have an incredible estellar record, so I know you 152 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 2: have a reason for going along with this. Can you 153 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 2: share that reason or is it confidential? 154 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 6: I can't get into too much of the specifics, but 155 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 6: I think I would absolutely agree with you. Four years ago. 156 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 6: That would be the first thing that we'd want to 157 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 6: do is get Hayden's picture on the TV and get 158 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 6: his story out there so people could call in. But 159 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 6: again we're talking about a four year delay before law 160 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 6: enforcement knows anything about it. You have to consider in 161 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 6: this investigation, there's really two outcomes, or there's really two 162 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 6: possibilities at this point. Is Hayden alive? Is Hayden dead? 163 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 6: And so in investigating those two different possibilities, you know 164 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 6: the investigation can grow those ways. 165 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,359 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. 166 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 2: Two Douglas Walker joining US Crime and Justice report of 167 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 2: the Star Press. Douglas, I just don't understand how the 168 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 2: extended family, such as grandparents, aunts and uncles didn't notice. Hey, 169 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 2: we haven't seen him, we haven't seen a picture of him. 170 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 2: He's not on a Christmas car, he's not at a 171 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 2: little preschool graduation. 172 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: We've got nothing. What they didn't notice. 173 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 7: They have described an estrangement with the boy's father, Dustin Manus, 174 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 7: describing various situations where they invited him to bring Hayden 175 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 7: to their homes at family gatherings, holiday gatherings, things of 176 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 7: this nature, and that he would indicate sure that will happen, 177 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 7: and then they just simply didn't show up, and as such, 178 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 7: the actual family members haven't seen him for five years. 179 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 7: I was told that investigators have determined someone being aware 180 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 7: of Hayden's presence as recently as the fall of twenty twenty, 181 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 7: so four and a half years of nothing. 182 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 2: We are hearing from Douglas Walker from the Star Press. 183 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 2: There may have been a siding as recently as fall 184 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: twenty twenty. That makes the time period less right the 185 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 2: time he's been missing, and you can extrapolate from that 186 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 2: that even though he may not be with his bioppearents 187 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 2: that he is alive somewhere. Now, this is my understanding. 188 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 2: Let me go straight out to doctor Cheryl Eric. 189 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: She is a. 190 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 2: Licensed clinical forensic psychologist specializing in trauma recovery. You can 191 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: find her at askdoctor Cheryl dot com. 192 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 1: Doctor Eric, thank you for being with us. 193 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 2: It's my understanding, and everybody on the panel correct me 194 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 2: if I've got this wrong. 195 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: That the son. 196 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 2: Had a falling out with his father, Hayden's grandfather. Okay, 197 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 2: they had a falling out. Of course, the son stops 198 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 2: out with Hayden, and that that is why the family 199 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 2: kind of chalked it off that the son's not bringing 200 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 2: Hayden around. 201 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: That's why they're not seeing him. 202 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 2: You know, when families split and they have a problem, 203 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 2: there are no more happy Thanksgivings and Christmases together, and 204 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 2: very often that's the only time extended family sees the child, 205 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 2: the grandchild. 206 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 8: That's right, Nancy. 207 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 9: And when we unpack this estrangement, I think we have 208 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 9: to think about it with the father's addiction in mind, 209 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 9: because one of the things we know when people have 210 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 9: active addictions to things like meth, cocaine, heroine, these are 211 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 9: things that can really interfere with somebody being able to 212 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 9: be a safe parent. But one of the other things 213 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 9: we see is incredible denial, denial that there's a problem. 214 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 9: A lot of times the family wants to believe the 215 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 9: best of the person who has the active addiction. And 216 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 9: some of what we're hearing is that the estrangement had 217 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 9: something to do with him feeling like they were judging 218 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 9: him about his addiction. They wanted to take Hayden away, 219 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 9: but the family knew about the addition problems that Dustin 220 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 9: was having. And what you want, especially when someone has 221 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 9: had these problems, you want supervision. You want to know, 222 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,319 Speaker 9: not just that they did the minim in terms of 223 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 9: probation or being able to get a child back, but 224 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 9: you want to know are they going to meetings? 225 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 8: Can you see them? I mean, most single parents, even 226 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 8: without this really welcome extended loving, extended family health. It's 227 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 8: a lot to have a little kid as a single parent, 228 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 8: and one would really expect that if he were really 229 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 8: doing what he said he was doing, he would want 230 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 8: to have them around, even if there was a phone 231 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 8: me out. 232 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 3: Four year old Hayden Manus is critically missing his family, 233 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 3: desperate for answers. Dad says CPS returned Hayden to his moms, 234 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 3: but the story is not adding up. 235 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: Where is Hayden? 236 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 2: Why did it take relatives five years to realize he's missing? 237 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 2: And when was the last time I can verify that 238 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 2: he was seeing Listen? 239 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 4: The father and son frequently visit family over the first 240 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 4: year after Dustin regains custody, but after a fight with 241 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 4: his dad, family members see less and less of Dustin 242 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 4: and Hayden. The last time for the family's gift exchange 243 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 4: on Christmas Eve twenty nineteen. 244 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: When's the last time you saw Hayden? Christmas Eve? Twenty 245 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: nineteen at our family gathering. He was getting presents. He 246 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: was excited. That was the last time. 247 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 2: That is from WTHR thirteen and the photos you were 248 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 2: seeing were provided to the Independent by Gary mannis straight 249 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 2: out to Eric Hoffman, joining US Prosecuting Attorney forty six 250 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 2: Judicial Circuit, Indiana, who has been investigating this case for 251 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 2: months after he, like us, find out Hayden's been missing 252 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 2: for five years? When can we start our timeline, Eric, 253 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 2: when do you believe is the last credible sighting of 254 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 2: this little boy? 255 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 6: I don't think we can pinpoint it to a particular date. 256 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 6: I think the credible information we have would have been 257 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 6: sometime between Christmas of twenty nineteen and early twenty twenty. 258 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 2: Joining me now being powers veteran trial lawyer, and you 259 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 2: can find him at legalpowers dot com. Ben, thank you 260 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 2: for being with us. You know, in some jurisdictions, I 261 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 2: know in Alabama is called Achilles law. In some jurisdictions, 262 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 2: it's actually a crime not to immediately report your child missing. 263 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 2: Did you know that that trend is catching fire across 264 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 2: the nation. It's becoming a statute in the black and 265 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 2: white letter of the law. 266 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 10: Ben, Yeah, that is becoming a more common law across 267 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 10: the nation to have reporting requirements for missing children for 268 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 10: the obvious reasons. You know, time is of the essence 269 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 10: when we're dealing with missing children, and the more time 270 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 10: it goes on, the harder it gets to find the 271 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 10: right answers, find the conclusions that you're new and so 272 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 10: those reporting requirements are becoming a popular trend nationally. 273 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 2: And the seminal case that shocked our country in the 274 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: case of two year old Kelly Anthony who goes missing 275 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 2: near Orlando, Florida, we really don't know how long taught 276 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 2: mom Casey Anthony waited to report Kelly missing. 277 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: Listen, Oh my daughter, baboo. 278 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 2: I need to find her. 279 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 11: Your daughter admitted that the baby is later, maybe kind 280 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 11: of took her a month ago. Is that my daughter's 281 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 11: been looking for I told you my daughter was missing 282 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 11: four months. I just found her today that I can't 283 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 11: find my granddaughter. She just admitted to me she's been 284 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 11: trying to find for her herself. There's something wrong. I 285 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 11: saw my daughter's cars today and it's not a dead daughter. 286 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 3: Clo. 287 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: Okay, what is the three year old's name? 288 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 11: Kelly c A Y L E. E. 289 00:17:54,280 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 2: Anthony just a few months short of being three. Kelly missing. 290 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 2: Now listen to top mom Casey Anthony's explanation. 291 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 11: You last saw her a month ago, thirty one days 292 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 11: from thirty one days? 293 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: Who have her? Do you a name? 294 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 11: Her name is Janeva Fernando's jo Wallis. 295 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: Who is that? 296 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 11: Maybe she has been my nanny for bout a year 297 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 11: and ago, for almost two years? Why why are you 298 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 11: calling now? 299 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: Why didn't you call it thirty one days ago? 300 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 11: I've been looking for her and have gone through other 301 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 11: resources to try to find her, which was stupid. 302 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: I've been looking for her at and have gone through 303 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 1: other resources to try to find her, which is stupid. 304 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: Did you hear that? 305 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: Did you hear that obvious break in the sentence where 306 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 2: taught mom Casey Anthony is trying to think up what 307 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 2: she could possibly say for waiting a month to report 308 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 2: her child missing. Oh, that's a lie. There is no 309 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 2: Zannaia Fernandez Gonzalez babysitter. There is no babysitter, There is 310 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 2: no nanny. In fact, her whole life was a lie. 311 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 2: She would sit on a parent's sofa every day and 312 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 2: a chips while they paid for everything for Kelly took 313 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 2: care of Kelley, changed Kelly's die piece, bought her clothes, 314 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 2: bought her food. 315 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: Housed her, loved her. 316 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 2: She even had a fake uniform from Universal Studios and 317 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 2: a little name tag right, and would pretend every day 318 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 2: she was going to work all a lie. She even 319 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: took cops. 320 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: Where they were trying to verify her job. 321 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 7: Her job. 322 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 2: All the way to Universal, they went, Yeah, there she is. 323 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 2: They went through the security gate, they got. 324 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: With the cops in the car with her. She's continuing 325 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: to lie, spinning it out, spinning it out. They get 326 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: all the way to the building. 327 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 2: They go to the door of the building to go 328 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 2: talk to her employer, and right as they go in, 329 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 2: she's like, oh, okay, you got me. 330 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: I don't have a job. I don't work here anymore. 331 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 2: And for all this time, she's laid out on the 332 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 2: sofa having chips and pretzels and pizza, telling her parents 333 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 2: she's working. And now we know what else she was 334 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 2: lying about. She says that she's been looking for Kelly. Hey, 335 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 2: top mom, why don't you look about ten houses down 336 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 2: from the Anthony home where you were mooching off your 337 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 2: parents in that swampy area with trashing it. That's where 338 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 2: Kelly was double bagged and trash bags from your home. 339 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 2: She was acquitted. That said, that shocked the country into 340 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 2: realizing there's something very wrong when time goes by and 341 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: no one reports a child missing. I mean, Eric Hoffman, 342 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 2: you're investigating this case, Douglas Walker. You are intimately familiar 343 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 2: with the facts. Eric, five years, what do relatives have 344 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 2: to say about why they never raised a flag of alarm. 345 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 6: I don't know why they didn't. They whatever reason they 346 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 6: didn't is strictly with them. I don't know, certainly. I 347 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 6: think it is reasonable to report that immediately. Again, I 348 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 6: think this four years has done nothing but hinder the investigation. 349 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 7: And I do see some. 350 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 6: Similarities between this case and the case Anthony case, from 351 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 6: the facts and from the evidence. 352 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 12: Now what are those similarities, Eric, I don't know that 353 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 12: I can go into all of the evidentiary facts that 354 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 12: we've gathered this far, but some of the similarities that 355 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 12: are publicly known are that we have a young child 356 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 12: who has not been seen for quite some time. 357 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 6: There is some suspicion of around the custodial parent, that 358 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 6: being Dustin Manus, and some things that he said that 359 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 6: were easily proven to be lies. And then there were 360 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 6: some evidentiary facts after that that are somewhat similar. 361 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 3: Mystery swirls around this strange disappearance a missing Indiana boy, 362 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 3: Hayden Manus, last seen by his family over five years ago. 363 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, mystery swirls. 364 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 2: All right, because the family just realizes he's missing. 365 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: And then a chance encounter. 366 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 13: Early September twenty twenty four, more than a year after 367 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 13: Dustin's last text to a family member, two of Hayden's 368 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 13: great grandmothers run into each other at the grocery store 369 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 13: and get to talking about. 370 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: Dustin and his son. 371 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 13: One says Dustin told her DCS gave Dustin's mom full 372 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 13: custody in twenty twenty two, but the other had heard 373 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 13: nothing about that. After some discussion, the extremely concerned family 374 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 13: reaches out to both DCS and police asking for a 375 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 13: welfare check for Hayden. 376 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 2: Straight out to Eric Hoffin, veteran trial lawyer in the 377 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 2: prosecutor's office, tell me about that chance meeting. 378 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 6: It's my understanding that the two grandmothers met up at 379 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 6: a grocery store by happenstance and started discussing Hayden, and 380 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 6: then at some point in time after that, on September 381 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 6: fifth of twenty twenty four, is when the welfare check 382 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 6: was called in with the police department, and that is 383 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 6: the first time we know that there's any issue with 384 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 6: Hayden in terms of him being missing or any foul play. 385 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: So they just happened to see each other at the 386 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: grocery store. 387 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,719 Speaker 2: I know, in my hometown, which actually I live far 388 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 2: out of the town in rural bib County, you would 389 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 2: actually run into everybody at the PEGAI big league, Okay, 390 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 2: the grocery store, So I get it. They run into 391 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 2: each other and one tells the other that Dustin's mother, 392 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 2: the bio mom. 393 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: Now has custody. 394 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 2: Isn't it true, Eric Hoffman, that police run down the 395 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 2: bio dad and Hayden's not there, and he tells officers 396 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 2: the very same story that Hayden has been moved in 397 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 2: place with his bio mom. 398 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: So we get it from the horse's mouth, right, Eric. 399 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 6: Yes. In fact, on the fifth, the very same day 400 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 6: that the welfare check call comes in, police officers go 401 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 6: to the last known address of Dustin Manus, and that 402 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 6: very same day they were able to find Dustin and 403 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 6: they interviewed him at the police station. They took him 404 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 6: to the Sheriff's apartment and reinterviewed him, and he had 405 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 6: a very specific place where he says Hayden was and 406 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 6: how he got there. He said that DCS and the 407 00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 6: Sheriff's department removed Hayden from him several years ago and 408 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 6: gave him Hayden, that is, to his birth mother. And 409 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 6: obviously within a day or two that was easily proved false. 410 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 6: He was not telling the truth. 411 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 2: Now you heard Eric Hoffman describe, and he knows this 412 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,959 Speaker 2: case better than any of us. These photos from Hayden 413 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 2: Manis's family to news outlets that the great grandma the 414 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 2: family meet at the grocery. They state that the bio 415 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 2: dad says, bio mom has her, I don't has him. 416 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 1: I don't have him. 417 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 2: The dad's tracked down. He says the same thing. But 418 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 2: Eric tells us that is not true. 419 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: That the bio dad is lying. 420 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 2: And it brings to mind another case that hit national headlines, 421 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 2: the case of Harmony Montgomery. 422 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 1: Both the bio parents are like this, listen. 423 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 14: Last time she was enrolled in any type of school. 424 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 14: From my understanding is you have to be confirmed as 425 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 14: down in Massachusetts but again she's seven right now, so 426 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 14: twenty nineteen, five years old, probably right around that kindergarten timeframe. Again, 427 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 14: we've spoken with family members and will continue to do so. 428 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 14: I know I keep coming back to that, and that's 429 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 14: a fair question, right, did we speak to mom? Did 430 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 14: we speak to dad? Did we speak to this we're 431 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 14: speaking to is any and all family members that come 432 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 14: to our attention and ones that we are seeking out 433 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 14: as well. 434 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 2: That is a Manchester, New Hampshire Police Chief Alan Aldenburg 435 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 2: desperately interviewing bio mom, bio dad, extended family. The last 436 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 2: time anybody got a good siding of Harmony Montgomery. Her 437 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 2: uncle saw her father assault her, attack her, giving her 438 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 2: a black eye, making her clean the bathroom with her toothbrush. 439 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: Listen to this. 440 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 15: Harmony Montgomery is missing for two years before anyone begins 441 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 15: to look for her. The search for five year old 442 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 15: Harmony leads to the family of Adam Montgomery, Harmony's father 443 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 15: telling police they called social services several times worried about Harmony, 444 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 15: but nobody would help police track down Adam Montgomery, and 445 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 15: he tells police Harmony's mother in Florida has Harmony. Police 446 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 15: explain she is the one who called for help finding 447 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 15: her daughter. 448 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 14: More than two years has passed as harmony since Harmony 449 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 14: was last seen. That puts us at a disadvantage and 450 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 14: the public public's help is greatly needed. 451 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 2: Bryan Vzgibbons, USPA nationwide security. 452 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: Look at this. 453 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 2: These are all cases of children that go missing and 454 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 2: months years past before anyone notices how many children are 455 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 2: out there missing, likely dead right now they no one 456 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 2: realize they're missing. 457 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 5: It's a great point, Nancy, and especially when you're dealing 458 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 5: with folks in active addiction. Unwinding timelines, unwinding locations from 459 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,360 Speaker 5: witness statements of anybody who might have been around Dustin 460 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 5: Manus around the time that Hayden was last seen is 461 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 5: going to become more and more complex for investigators. 462 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 2: Four year old Hayden Manus has been missing five years? 463 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: Is there any chance in finding him? 464 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 2: There has been a recent sighting of him which many 465 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 2: believe is credible, which gives me hope. 466 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: Then there is the reunification process. 467 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 2: Did you hear the grandfather or Hayden's grandfather saying I didn't. 468 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: Want him to be given back to his bio dad 469 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: my son. I didn't want that and they did it anyway, 470 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: Listen to this would be. 471 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 2: Adoptive mom who fostered a beautiful little girl for years 472 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 2: before she was snatched away and given back any reunification 473 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 2: with the mother the bio mom. 474 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: Listen. 475 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 16: A family friend contacted us and said, Hey, I know 476 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 16: of a foster child that is most likely going to 477 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 16: be put into adoption. Is this something that you're interested 478 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 16: in doing? And my husband and I looked at each 479 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 16: other across the couch and we just were like, Yeah, 480 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,239 Speaker 16: let's do it. And we weren't sure at first if 481 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 16: it was going to be a long term situation or 482 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 16: a short term, but as the years went by, we 483 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 16: were like, Wow, this is actually happening, Like we're going 484 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 16: to get to adopt her, and we love the time 485 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:40,719 Speaker 16: that we had with Oakley. 486 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 2: That's Jamie jo Hiles, Oakley's foster mom, and she had 487 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 2: her hopes, her and her husband, they both had their 488 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 2: hopes up that they were really going to be the 489 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 2: forever home. 490 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: For maybe Oakley. 491 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 2: And just like in Hayden's case bio mom, in this case, 492 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 2: bio dad has a drug problem. 493 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 16: Mom had gone to the rehab classes that she was 494 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 16: ordered to go to and shortly after she went to 495 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 16: those rehab classes, she became pregnant and stayed clean. And 496 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 16: I don't know if it's because she had stayed clean 497 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 16: for so long or what kind of law happens, but 498 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 16: she was able to get Oakley and her siblings back well. 499 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 2: Speaking with Jamie Joe, she choked up. From here, I 500 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 2: could see you swallow at that last sentence. 501 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 16: Why it never gets easier to talk about this because 502 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 16: my husband and I grieved the loss of Oakley, and 503 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 16: then to find out that she was missing. 504 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: It still hurts our hearts. 505 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 16: And it doesn't make sense to us, and it never 506 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 16: will make sense to us why we didn't get to 507 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 16: have her with us permanently. 508 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 2: In fact, Jamie Joe and her husband were so convinced 509 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 2: they were getting Oakley they actually agreed to take Oakley's 510 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 2: new little baby sibling as well. They were going to 511 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 2: have a whole family, a house. 512 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: Full of children. 513 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 16: In the spring. We were asked by our social worker, 514 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 16: Angela Freese, if we would be interested in taking the 515 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 16: new baby when it was born, and my husband and 516 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 16: I were like, yes, we would be interested in taking 517 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 16: Oakley's younger sibling. And then the next month, at the 518 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 16: next Health and Safety visit. We were told never mind, 519 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 16: like that's not an option anymore. And then it slowly 520 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 16: kind of came to that, oh, she's going to be returned. 521 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 16: And when my husband and I went to fight it 522 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 16: with the Grace Harbor Department of Children, News and Families, 523 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 16: we were told, she's not your daughter. 524 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: You need to let go of this. 525 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 2: Oakley is dead at the hands in the care of 526 00:31:54,720 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 2: her by a mom. You know, I wonder Eric Hoffman, 527 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 2: your thoughts on reunification. Why did they even call it that. 528 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 2: That's such a euphemism like domestic violence and make it 529 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 2: sound so cozy domestic violence. I've had so much domestic 530 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 2: violence translation homicides of women and children that it's enough 531 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 2: to just make you gag. Same thing here, reunification. It 532 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 2: sounds so good, it's bs I'm against reunification. Why do 533 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 2: we keep putting the desires of two deadbeat parents over 534 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 2: the wellbeing of the child. 535 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: Look at Hayden, he's gone. 536 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 2: He could be dead because of reunification. The grandfather wanted him, 537 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 2: Papa wanted him, but oh hl n O, we couldn't 538 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 2: do that, and now he could be dead. 539 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 6: I agree with you, Nancy. I think I can speak 540 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 6: for most of the prosecutors, if not all, the prosecutors 541 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 6: in the state of Indiana, that reunification, that particular word 542 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 6: is nauseating. It is particularly nauseating in this case. From 543 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 6: what I know of it. I do not think that 544 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 6: the Department of Child Services should have ever given Hayden 545 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 6: back to Dustin Manus. Hayden should have stayed with his grandfather, 546 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 6: Gary Manus, and we would be in totally different place today. 547 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 6: I can't speak for DCS. I don't know why they 548 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 6: would have given him back. But again, that word reunification 549 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 6: is nauseating. 550 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: Crime Stores with Nancy Grace. 551 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 17: Social media is littered with rumors and theories on what 552 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 17: happened to Hayden's some extremely disturbing. One post accuses Manus 553 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 17: and his ex girlfriend in great detail, of abusing Hayden 554 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 17: and killing the boy when his condition deteriorated to a 555 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 17: point of requiring intense medical attention. The now deleted posts 556 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 17: claims the couple then buried Hayden's body in their backyard 557 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 17: to decompose for six months before disposing of the remains 558 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:08,760 Speaker 17: in a gas station dumpster. 559 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 2: To Eric Hoffman, joining us veteran trial lawyer prosecutor forty 560 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 2: six Judicial Circuit. 561 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: Indiana on this case. What about these rumors? 562 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 2: I know you cannot comment on specific facts, but let 563 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 2: me ask you this, are those rumors that Hayden was 564 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 2: abused and killed? Are they grounded in any shred of 565 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 2: credible evidence? Was there a sighting? Is there some tangible 566 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 2: evidence that that's true. 567 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 6: We have heard those rumors from multiple sources. We are 568 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 6: considering them as a part of the investigation as potentially 569 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 6: being true in terms of physical evidence or something. To 570 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 6: corroborate these rumors or these stories or these allegations, it's 571 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 6: almost impossible now, four years later, or to define that 572 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 6: coroboration that a prosecutor would need to go into court with. 573 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: Have you brought out cadaverdogs that gas station dumpster? You did? 574 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:15,240 Speaker 6: Yes, We've used cadaver dogs at multiple locations in Delaware County. 575 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 2: Any hits no been powers joining us better on try 576 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 2: a lawyer at legalpowers dot com. What are your thoughts 577 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 2: on reunification with bioparents. 578 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 1: That have already lost their child for very good reason. 579 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 10: I don't think that the child should just be given 580 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 10: back without any type of oversight or any type of 581 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 10: check in or any type. 582 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 7: Of follow up. 583 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 10: I mean, they clearly have exhibited that they're not able 584 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 10: to care for themselves, much less a child. And when 585 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 10: you overlay a drug addiction into that definitely needs to 586 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 10: be some oversight. And so it does sound like in 587 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 10: this situation, DCS failed, Hayden failed. Hayden's family not requiring 588 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 10: his father to continue to show progress, to continue to 589 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,919 Speaker 10: show some Instead, they just gave him back. And even worse, 590 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,879 Speaker 10: they give him back during COVID lockdowns. 591 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:05,399 Speaker 7: Ben. 592 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,359 Speaker 2: When they first took Hayden away from the dad, they 593 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 2: found Hayden in a motel room littered with heroin, and 594 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:18,879 Speaker 2: yet they gave him back. 595 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 10: Yeah, there's no reason that he gets. 596 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 14: A befit of the doubt. 597 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,320 Speaker 2: I mean, have you ever heard when you don't know 598 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 2: a horse, look at his track record. 599 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: If you don't know what the Biodad's going to do, 600 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:29,959 Speaker 1: look at what he's already done. 601 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 2: Eric Hoffman, have you been in touch with the bio 602 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 2: Dad's girlfriend and if so, could she elucidate this at all? 603 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:46,479 Speaker 6: The Sheriff's Department investigators have been in touch with bio 604 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 6: Dad's girlfriend. She gave multiple interviews with Sheriff's detectives, some 605 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 6: of which contained conflicting information, and she has spoken with 606 00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:58,800 Speaker 6: them on multiple occasions. 607 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: Well, did she shed in light off where where Hayden 608 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: could be? 609 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 6: She did, but again what she did tell the Sheriff's 610 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 6: department was somewhat contradictory or inconsistent. 611 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 1: Well, you know what, it sounds like a bunch of 612 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: wet cats and a barrel. 613 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 2: You've got drug addled bio dad. You've got relatives that 614 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 2: haven't seen the child in five years but don't realize 615 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:25,280 Speaker 2: he's missing. 616 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 1: And by the way, speaking of. 617 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 2: The relatives, we invited the grandparents on to make a 618 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 2: heartfelt plea to you about finding Hayden, and they told 619 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 2: us that they didn't think we crime stories would cover 620 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,919 Speaker 2: the case the way they wanted it covered. How many 621 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 2: ways are there to cover a missing child case? 622 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 13: Uh? 623 00:37:53,360 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: That said Douglas Walker. Where does the case stand now? 624 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 7: Dustin Manus was questioned in September gave investigators an account 625 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 7: of the child being returned to its birth mother that 626 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 7: didn't happen. In November, he was stopped for a traffic offense. 627 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 7: The officer that night noted that he appeared to be 628 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 7: extremely nervous to the point of being afraid, he wrote 629 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 7: in a report, and Dustin told him that he was 630 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,359 Speaker 7: frightened because he had recently been questioned about the disappearance 631 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 7: of his son. They ultimately found heroin and meth in 632 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 7: his possession. He was arrested and charged with low grade 633 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 7: felony drug possession charges. Was in jail under a three 634 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 7: thousand dollars bond. A few weeks later, a family member 635 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 7: came forward with that money. Was released from the Delaware 636 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 7: County jail. Four days after that, he fatally overdosed. Spoke 637 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,359 Speaker 7: to the coroner yesterday. He said he died of an 638 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 7: acute mixed drug intoxication. So any possibility of further exploring 639 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 7: the situation with Dustin Manus is not going to happen. 640 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,800 Speaker 7: He's gone, And a person close to the case yesterday 641 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,320 Speaker 7: told me he felt like they were chasing ghosts and 642 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,760 Speaker 7: trying to get this salt. 643 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 2: It's so trite to say we're not giving up, but 644 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:44,240 Speaker 2: we're not. If you know or think you know anything 645 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 2: about this baby boy Hayden Dial seven six ' five 646 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 2: seven four seven seven eight eight five. 647 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,399 Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off goodbye friend. 648 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 14: People to Gi