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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, fellow conspiracy realist Matt. This classic

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Speaker 1: episode has me wondering should we should we be doing exorcisms?

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Speaker 1: Should we get back into that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's been too long, first of all.

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Speaker 2: Second of all, it's so much fun. Third of all,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I would love to have an exorcism

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Speaker 2: performed on me, just to like test and see if

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Speaker 2: there's any demonic stuff going on in.

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Speaker 1: Here, just like like a spiritual physical.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like I don't even know it's happening or anybody,

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Speaker 2: and you just test it out, see what happens. If

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Speaker 2: you get anything, well you win.

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Speaker 1: Hold this crossing cough. So the idea of an exorcism,

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Speaker 1: this exists throughout history, throughout the world, some version of

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Speaker 1: this in the West. The Catholic concept of an exorcism

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Speaker 1: is probably the thing that's most familiar to people like

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Speaker 1: you know, in the nineteen seventy three horror film The Exorcists.

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Speaker 1: We were surprised a number of years ago to learn

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Speaker 1: that exorcisms are actually on the rise.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they have a whole association that's international. Let's learn

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Speaker 2: about it.

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Speaker 3: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 3: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 3: learn the stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. Usually

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Speaker 2: that's Nol, but he's not here today, and we.

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Speaker 1: Promise that, as far as we know, our compatriot is

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Speaker 1: not possessed. We are, of course joined with our super producer,

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Speaker 1: Paul Decant. They call me Ben. You are you? And

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Speaker 1: that makes this stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 1: The power of podcast compels us. Yes, it does to

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Speaker 1: perform certain rituals at certain times. And this is one

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Speaker 1: of our rituals that you and I have been doing

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Speaker 1: for a number of years. Matt. We we research something strange,

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Speaker 1: we may conduct an interview, we may travel somewhere, and

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Speaker 1: then we come together in this place and.

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Speaker 2: With our Coca Cola holy water and pour it into

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Speaker 2: our mouths. So at least I do I think you have.

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Speaker 2: You've got straight up coffee today, which is just as good,

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Speaker 2: if not better.

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Speaker 1: And our relics are with us, our microphones, our headphones.

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Speaker 2: Are our smelly pop filters.

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Speaker 1: That was a subject of discussion before we dropped in.

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Speaker 2: Everybody uses them, and you know, sometimes you have coffee breath.

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Speaker 2: It's all good. Sometimes you have Coca cola breath strategy.

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Speaker 1: By the way, as I'm pretty specific with this, I

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Speaker 1: try to stay away from the mic, you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to get right right on it. It's just

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Speaker 1: length voiceover. Yeah. And additionally, one could argue, if we

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Speaker 1: were to look at podcasting as a ritual or a

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Speaker 1: right that what you and I are doing now is incantation. Oh,

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Speaker 1: because we do spend you know, you and I especially

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Speaker 1: have spend a lot of time behind the scenes or

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Speaker 1: off air, off camera saying, you know what, how should

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Speaker 1: we approach an idea? Should we structure it? Is there

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Speaker 1: a power in formula and ritual and right? And we

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Speaker 1: think there is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, at least to an extent or in a way,

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Speaker 2: because you expect it, you as a person receiving a

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Speaker 2: ritual in this sort or an incantation like this, I

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Speaker 2: don't know. It's it's almost as if it triggers a

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Speaker 2: thing that is already implanted in your brain, the pathways

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Speaker 2: that are already there because you kind of know what

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Speaker 2: it is. But then it's going to open up new

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Speaker 2: pathways that are connected to that one.

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Speaker 1: Right, That's the question that you might want to ask yourself,

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Speaker 1: longtime listeners, friends and neighbors, have we primed you? Have

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Speaker 1: we programmed you to anticipate certain stimuli and respond in

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Speaker 1: certain ways?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the answer is yes. First time listeners, welcome to

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Speaker 1: the show. Hey, you hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: Before we jump into today's topic, we want to start

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Speaker 2: with a quick quote that kind of sets up maybe

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Speaker 2: the framing of mind for some of the people who

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Speaker 2: think in the same way of these characters. Quote today,

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Speaker 2: the world does not turn from God because it is idolatrous. Rather,

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Speaker 2: it pursues pure atheism so as to put science on

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Speaker 2: the altar. And that's from Father Gabriel Amorth and he

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Speaker 2: is someone we will get to a little later.

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Speaker 1: Matt, what do you think of when you hear the

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Speaker 1: word exorcism.

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Speaker 2: I see images from film and television, mostly film movies,

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Speaker 2: the Exorciste in particular. I have very vivid images of

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Speaker 2: a body rising off of a bed of vomit, coming

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Speaker 2: from a mouth, of a discolored face, that is possession

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Speaker 2: in particular. And then when I think of exorcism, I

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Speaker 2: think of holy water, and I think of reading from

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Speaker 2: a Bible, reading the word of God. Other symbology, crosses,

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Speaker 2: artifacts of that sort, yeah, investments, Yes, the touching of hands.

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Speaker 2: That's what I see, a very Hollywood version of exorcism.

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Speaker 1: Agreed, you know, and I believe that that's something common.

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Speaker 1: You know, a lot of people, at least in the West,

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Speaker 1: when we hear the term exorcism, we think of, as

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Speaker 1: you said, Hollywood, a good horror film.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because most of us haven't experienced a true exorcism,

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Speaker 2: or what would be considered a real exorcism.

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Speaker 1: M m, right, at least in that specific Catholic framework,

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Speaker 1: right in the past. On this very show, almost four

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Speaker 1: years ago to the day, Wow, we covered the phenomenon

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Speaker 1: of exorcism in general, along with how it differs across

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Speaker 1: time and cultures. Will give a brief background of exorcism

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Speaker 1: and possession here, and for more in depth information, please

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Speaker 1: check out our earlier episode, Exorcisms Introduction. Not the most creative.

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Speaker 2: Title, eh, you know, that's exactly what it was.

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Speaker 1: Though it was it was I.

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Speaker 2: Think we did a pretty good job. I really liked

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Speaker 2: that episode.

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Speaker 1: I went back and listened to it and I was surprised.

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Speaker 1: Not that I expected it to be terrible, but twenty

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Speaker 1: fourteen was such a long time ago.

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Speaker 2: Now, we were just learning what the show was.

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Speaker 1: Right, We were like priest conducting our first Okay, all right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna let that analogy go. So here are the facts,

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Speaker 1: the brief background broad stroke stuff, Matt and I will

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Speaker 1: give you. Here is the following. The practice of exorcism

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Speaker 1: predates the existence of all Abramaic religion, Judaism, Islam, Christianity,

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Speaker 1: all of it. This stuff was old beings by the

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Speaker 1: time Jesus Christ or Moses or any of the other

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Speaker 1: religious figures right of course, Muhammad and so on, before

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Speaker 1: anybody body else came into the fold, or the zeitgeist

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Speaker 1: of spiritual belief.

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Speaker 2: That the concept of some kind of spirit entering a

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Speaker 2: corporeal body somehow and then taking it out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, non consensually entering and being non consensually pooled

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Speaker 1: by the time the story of Jesus Christ casting spirits

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Speaker 1: into pigs came about, or by the time you know,

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Speaker 1: people heard that story, whether they heard it in an

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Speaker 1: oral tradition, whether they who knows, witnessed it themselves, or

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Speaker 1: whether they read about it in centuries or millennia later,

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Speaker 1: the concept of exorcism would have already been more than

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Speaker 1: familiar to the audience. In ancient Samaria and Babylon, exorcists

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Speaker 1: already played a prominent role somewhere between that of a

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Speaker 1: priest and a doctor. And it's pretty fascinating because the

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Speaker 1: rituals from what we know, of course, a lot of

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Speaker 1: this has lost the time, or publicly available knowledge has

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Speaker 1: been lost the time. The rituals would vary, but they

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Speaker 1: still relied on artifacts, techniques, and as you said, Matt,

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Speaker 1: the main goal was to drive out a spirit. They

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Speaker 1: might not have used the word demon, maybe more like spirit.

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Speaker 2: A spirit that, yeah, again non consensually was there, probably

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Speaker 2: of a bad nature, a negative nature, right.

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Speaker 1: And this could be in some cases, this could be

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Speaker 1: a human spirit, a ghost, right, an angry ancestor. In

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Speaker 1: other cases, though in a way that's more familiar with

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Speaker 1: us now in the modern day, it would be something

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Speaker 1: that never was human, yeah, a.

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Speaker 2: Monster from another plain kind of exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And they would concoct these magical substances or potions,

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Speaker 1: these relics and artifacts composed of animals or plants or

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Speaker 1: different stones that were thought to have various powers. In

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Speaker 1: the world of sympathetic magic, we're talking about iron from meteors, reeds, flower,

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Speaker 1: animal hair. Birds were really big in this time, and

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Speaker 1: birds still are symbolically hugely important, right.

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Speaker 2: Oh. Yeah, They're thought to possess, or they have been

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Speaker 2: for a long time, thought to possess, some kind of

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Speaker 2: supernatural power, especially white owls. White owls, and you have

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Speaker 2: to imagine that image would be startling in a way.

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Speaker 2: And I guess you can just imagine viewing one just

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Speaker 2: perch outside a window or something, or perched outside of

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Speaker 2: a home, just sitting there in a tree and gazing.

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Speaker 1: Now, we have both lived outside of urban areas in

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Speaker 1: the past, right, and I believe I believe Paul has

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Speaker 1: as well. I have to admit, even even if someone

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Speaker 1: without Nole's crippling fear of all things avy and when

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Speaker 1: I unexpectedly see a large predatory bird, yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: that's a double take moment. Yeah, I'm going to say

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Speaker 1: I'm startled, not frightened, because usually that for a long

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Speaker 1: time now, I've been a bit too large for the

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Speaker 1: average bird to attack. But have you ever been in

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Speaker 1: a situation where you hear a slight rustle and you

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Speaker 1: turn to the left and there's a hawk or a

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Speaker 1: falcon or something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to really fast stories. H yeah, yeah, Okay.

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Speaker 2: So the other day I was driving to work in

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Speaker 2: the morning. It was very foggy outside. It was the

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Speaker 2: day I posted on our Instagram a couple of pictures

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Speaker 2: of Atlanta in this heavy, misty fog conspiracy stuff show.

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Speaker 1: Feel free to follow it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Well, as I got to the stop sign in

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Speaker 2: my neighborhood, I looked to my right and I see

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Speaker 2: I'm not really sure what it is at first, and

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Speaker 2: then I realize, oh, it is a large brown hawk,

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Speaker 2: very large, about the size of a cat, a large cat,

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Speaker 2: and it has its wings wrapped around something. It's sitting

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Speaker 2: or standing on the ground, and something is like kind

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Speaker 2: of twitching and moving underneath its wings, and you can

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Speaker 2: see it kind of readjusting itself, and then it opens

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Speaker 2: its wings a little bit. It sends its beak down

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Speaker 2: really fast around the neck of this squirrel that it's

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Speaker 2: got trapped, and then it's holding it down still, and

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Speaker 2: I swear it looks up and it looks right at

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Speaker 2: my car, because I just stop and I just stare

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Speaker 2: at it for a little while. It stares at me,

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Speaker 2: and then I go, all right, I'm moving on and

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Speaker 2: I'm driving carefully just in case this is an omen

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Speaker 2: of some sort. The other one is in my backyard there,

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Speaker 2: it's a fenced in area, there is a fam of

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Speaker 2: large owls. And I didn't realize this, oh wow, until

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Speaker 2: one night I took my small dock's in terrier mix

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Speaker 2: out in the back to go to the bathroom, Buddy, Buddy,

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Speaker 2: and I heard a sound that I was unfamiliar with.

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Speaker 2: I did not know what type of bird it was.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know anything. I just knew it was a

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Speaker 2: large bird and it was just above me in this

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Speaker 2: large oak tree.

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Speaker 1: Was it a vocalization?

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Speaker 2: It was a vocalization that I cannot reproduce.

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Speaker 1: And oh it sounded like a curse word. Huh yes, yeah.

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Speaker 2: But it was so eerie, and I didn't know until

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Speaker 2: when I got this powerful flashlight out of my house

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Speaker 2: shined it up, and it was just this huge owl

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Speaker 2: perched on this tree. And it was again like just

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Speaker 2: staring down at the source of light at me. And

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Speaker 2: the feeling, even now in then twenty seventeen, was of

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Speaker 2: dread of some sort, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, And don't be fooled by the vocalization either, because

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Speaker 1: owls are some of the quietest predators birds. I can

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Speaker 1: completely understand where you're coming from. And that's so cool

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Speaker 1: that you live there, because you know your chances of

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Speaker 1: having any sort of rudent problem have just bottomed out.

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Speaker 2: Yes, very very true. Anyway, that's enough on owls.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yes, yes, yes, And then you know things like

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Speaker 1: ravens would be thought to be messengers, yes, owls also,

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Speaker 1: But owls were more associated in these ancient times in Samaria,

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Speaker 1: at least with insidious powers, the powers of darkness and

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Speaker 1: death and decay and evil. Right, whereas ravens, ravens were

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Speaker 1: like bad news, but owls, owls were terrible news. Then

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Speaker 1: of course you could probably see this coming, folks. The

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Speaker 1: idea of water water symbolized the presence of Ea, the

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Speaker 1: god of water, so it was often sprinkled on the

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Speaker 1: victim of a possession during incantations to symbolize the cleansing

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Speaker 1: of the victim. Right, the influence of the god of

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Speaker 1: water taking away the contamination of this evil.

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Speaker 2: Spirit, symbol we see with modern day baptisms.

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Speaker 1: Right exactly. Hole in one spittle, by the way, was

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Speaker 1: especially important. It was thought to be a potent toxin

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Speaker 1: when used against demons. Saliva wow, So that's why several

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Speaker 1: ancient texts refer to these sorcerer priests as kasapum. However

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Speaker 1: it's pronounced which was Arabic four to poison, and the

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Speaker 1: Smerian equivalent was mints saliva or spittle wow, the idea

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Speaker 1: being the poisoned demons. And as you pointed out, many

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Speaker 1: of the vestiges of these older practices can be seen

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Speaker 1: in exorcism rituals and rites around the world today. Incantations,

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Speaker 1: the use of sanctified or holy water, the use of

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Speaker 1: animals and relics. In this episode for the Strange phenomenon

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Speaker 1: will examine today, we're going to focus on Catholic perspectives

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Speaker 1: concerning exorcism. So what if we are asking the Catholic Church,

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Speaker 1: if we're hanging out with Pope Francis and we ask him,

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Speaker 1: what's exorcism, what does he say?

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Speaker 2: He's going to say, the act of driving out or

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Speaker 2: warding off demons or evil spirits from persons, places or

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Speaker 2: things which are believed to be possessed or infested by them,

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Speaker 2: or are liable to become victims or instruments of their malice.

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Speaker 2: And that's according to the Catholic Encyclopedia right.

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Speaker 1: That does sound like there would be a bit of

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Speaker 1: a complex sentence structure to generate off the dome, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: While the treatment of this perceived conditioned spiritual possession may

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Speaker 1: vary from one culture to the next, the idea is

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Speaker 1: extraordinarily common, as we discussed in our previous episode, throughout history,

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Speaker 1: and the gist of it is pretty much the same

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Speaker 1: across time, culture, and space, and evil. Typically, non corporeal

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Speaker 1: entity or non physical entity invades a physical vessel. In

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Speaker 1: horror films or horror stories, this is often a person,

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Speaker 1: often a kid who turns really creepy, or an elderly person,

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Speaker 1: because those two ends of the mortality cycle of humanity

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Speaker 1: are the things that psychologically tend to creep people out

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Speaker 1: the most.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and in a way are the weakest parts

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Speaker 2: of that bell curve.

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Speaker 1: That's a great point. That is a really great point. Also, however,

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Speaker 1: places or objects may be considered infected. There's an excellent

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Speaker 1: article on our parent website, how Stuff Works. It's called

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Speaker 1: how Exorcisms Work, and they break down some of the

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Speaker 1: approaches the Catholic Church takes to exorcisms. This article, by

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Speaker 1: the way, is solely based on Catholicism, and we can't

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Speaker 1: stress it enough. Exorcism, possession. It is not a Catholic

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Speaker 1: thing alone. It's just something like if you hear about

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Speaker 1: it here in the US, you are most likely going

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Speaker 1: to hear about it through this lens. Anyhow, According to this,

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Speaker 1: the Catholic Church recognizes not one, but several types of exorcism,

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Speaker 1: and some of them may surprise you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The first one is baptismal exorcism, and this is

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Speaker 2: when you bring an infant like a baby prior to

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Speaker 2: being officially baptized into the church. You bring it into

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Speaker 2: the church to cleanse it of the evil resulting from

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Speaker 2: its original sin, which is dark and away. But it's

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Speaker 2: also the least worrisome of the types of exorcism. The

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Speaker 2: second one is simple exorcism, and this is more of

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Speaker 2: a blessing really than pulling things out of it so much,

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Speaker 2: I guess in a way. But you're blessing a place

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Speaker 2: or a thing, so a physical object, to rid it

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Speaker 2: of some kind of evil infestation.

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Speaker 1: Right right, And you see similar this sort of thing

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Speaker 1: well qualifying as exorcism is something that you would see

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Speaker 1: in other cultures. Perhaps the idea that you may have

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Speaker 1: heard from some of your college roommates in the past

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Speaker 1: of burning sage to purify a place because something bad

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Speaker 1: happened there. Then, of course there's real exorcism, the real deal,

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Speaker 1: the one we all hear about performing the capital R

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Speaker 1: right of capital e exorcism to rid a living human

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Speaker 1: being a possession by a diabolical entity. And that brings

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Speaker 1: us to another question. How do you know whether someone's

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Speaker 1: being possessed? How can you tell the difference between someone

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Speaker 1: who's just been a real ahole versus someone who's become

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Speaker 1: an unwilling vessel for infernal forces of the you know,

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Speaker 1: the left hand of darkness. Right. According to the Church,

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Speaker 1: there are several telltale signs of demonic possession that anyone

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Speaker 1: can sense. In general, you don't have to be a

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Speaker 1: member of the clergy to notice these things. Speaking or

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Speaker 1: understanding languages which the person has never learned. It's different

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Speaker 1: from speaking in tongues gloss a alia, because that is

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Speaker 1: believed to be indicative of religious ecstasy, whereas speaking in

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Speaker 1: fluent Aramaic or something is considered to be a sign

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Speaker 1: that there's a different entity at the wheel of your mind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the traditional speaking in tongues is it's just gibberish.

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Speaker 2: It does, it's not actual formations of words or sentences. Generally.

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Speaker 2: Then there's knowing or somehow revealing things that the person

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Speaker 2: has no way of knowing. It. Just if it was

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Speaker 2: regular times and this person just was existing in their life,

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Speaker 2: there's no way they could have known this clairvoyance.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, in physical strength beyond the person's natural physical makeup,

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Speaker 1: which is an interesting thing because we know in times

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Speaker 1: of great stress that can actually happen. Hysterical strength is

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Speaker 1: a thing to some degree. And then a violent aversion

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Speaker 1: to God, the Virgin Mary, the Cross, and other images

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Speaker 1: of the Catholic.

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Speaker 2: Faith yep, which again we have seen over and over.

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Speaker 1: So where does that leave us today. We'll tell you

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Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsor.

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Speaker 2: And we're back. So today, exorcism remains the subject of

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Speaker 2: this intense interest across the world for peoples across the world,

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Speaker 2: both for believers that think exorcism is real and you're

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Speaker 2: actually bringing evil spirits out of a person and skeptics

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Speaker 2: who think it's just a strange ritual that's just stuck around.

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Speaker 1: An historical artifact or something. Yeah. Yeah, that's a really

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Speaker 1: good point. Matt because one thing that you notice is

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Speaker 1: that even the people who you know, the people I

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Speaker 1: refer to them as pseudo skeptics, who are so into

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Speaker 1: their idea of being a skeptic that they have severely

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Speaker 1: crippled their ability to apply critical thinking, even those people

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Speaker 1: have a huge interest in the concept. Right. It's entertaining

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Speaker 1: in horror and in fiction, right, And it's also fascinating

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Speaker 1: just from an anthropological perspective. Right.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, with the quote we had at the top

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Speaker 2: of the show, it seems in this world of science

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Speaker 2: in which we exist right now, that exorcisms should have

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Speaker 2: just been left by the wayside, and they most certainly haven't.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah. Modern science often proposes that historical cases of

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Speaker 1: exorcism can be attributed to a number of different mundane causes,

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Speaker 1: including things like mental health issues that would not have

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Speaker 1: been recognized in the same framework through which we recognize

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Speaker 1: them today, stuff like schizophrenia, right, possibly dementia instance, or

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Speaker 1: even arguably in the case of the elderly Alzheimer's, anything

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Speaker 1: that seems to dramatically change someone behavior, their emotional state,

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Speaker 1: or distress them. Other undiagnosed, unrecognized diseases, genetic conditions, and

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Speaker 1: then the more complex, the more complex phenomenon of social

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Speaker 1: pressures or behavior running in contravention to social moras, norms,

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Speaker 1: or values of the time. Are you you know one

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Speaker 1: thing that would happen in patriarchal societies? Right? Are you

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Speaker 1: a woman who doesn't want to be in this arranged marriage? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: You must be possessed by the devil. How else would

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Speaker 1: you have a problem with this? It's not you, it's

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Speaker 1: this demon that said you shouldn't marry this fifty year

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Speaker 1: old man in your twelve It must be it must

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Speaker 1: be called the priest. So how far do we take

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Speaker 1: this idea today? Though? Are there literally modern exorcisms in

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Speaker 1: the Catholic Church spoiler alert yes, of course, But if so,

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Speaker 1: how seriously does the church take them? Here's where it

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Speaker 1: gets crazy again.

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Speaker 2: Like we said, while exorcism might seem like this artifact

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Speaker 2: of some you know, the bloody religious history that humanity

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Speaker 2: has experienced, it's still taken very seriously by the Catholic Church,

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Speaker 2: more seriously in fact, in recent decades than it had

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Speaker 2: been prior to that. There is this thing that this

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Speaker 2: episode is really all about, called the International Association of Exorcists.

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Speaker 2: And here let's let's talk about it. This is a

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Speaker 2: Roman Catholic organization, and it sounds ancient. It sounds like

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Speaker 2: something that would have been created in the fifteen hundreds,

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Speaker 2: the sixteen hundreds or something. But no, it wasn't founded

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Speaker 2: until the year nineteen ninety and there were six priests

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Speaker 2: that got together, including Father Gabriel Amorth with the quote

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Speaker 2: at the top of the show, and Father Jeremy Davies right.

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Speaker 1: Father Gabriel m Orth is someone that we touched upon

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Speaker 1: in a couple of previous episodes. He was born in

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty five exorcists for the Diocese of Rome. He

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Speaker 1: claimed to have performed I believe over one hundred and

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Speaker 1: sixty thousands exorcisms.

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Speaker 2: Whoa yeah.

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Speaker 1: During his now he was a priest for decades and decades.

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Speaker 1: He was often called by reputable news sources the Vatican's

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Speaker 1: chief exorcists, which is more I think we of me

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Speaker 1: have said that as well. It turns out that's more

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Speaker 1: the translation, because he is exorcist for the Diocese of Rome,

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Speaker 1: but he's not. He wasn't. There's not some sort of

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Speaker 1: joint chiefs of staff for exorcism in Rome, and he's

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Speaker 1: not the guy with the most stars or the biggest

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Speaker 1: epaulets or whatever. He was a priest for years and

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Speaker 1: years before he became an official exorcist, and that's something

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Speaker 1: we see with a lot of Catholic priest It's not

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Speaker 1: something that people enter into on their first day of seminary.

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Speaker 1: He was a priest in nineteen fifty four and he

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Speaker 1: did not become an exorcist until nineteen eighty six, under

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Speaker 1: the tutelage of Candido Amantini. He loved the film The Exorcist.

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Speaker 1: I thought that was fascinating. He loved it because he

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Speaker 1: thought it was substantially correct, does based on true events,

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Speaker 1: and he thought the special effects were exaggerated. But he

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Speaker 1: picture him shrugging and going, you know, it's a movie.

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Speaker 2: So he.

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Speaker 1: In defense of this film, he said that he was

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Speaker 1: in an interview with a London Sunday Telegraph and he

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Speaker 1: stressed that people need to know what we do we

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Speaker 1: in this sense being exorcist. The different the different claims

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Speaker 1: of the number of exorcisms that Amor conducted. The reason

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Speaker 1: for that difference is that there's no central database for

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Speaker 1: the amount of exorcisms, either performed per year performed in total,

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Speaker 1: but We could make some guesses on some of this

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Speaker 1: stuff later, but that's why you hear his numbers differing.

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Speaker 1: In October two thousand, it was reported he had performed

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Speaker 1: over fifty thousand exorcisms. In twenty ten, he said the

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Speaker 1: number was seventy thousand, but by May of twenty thirteen

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Speaker 1: he said he had performed one hundred and sixty thousand

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Speaker 1: and over the course of his career. An important note here,

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Speaker 1: as we said, there are different types of exorcism. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that could count everything from praying for a bad

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Speaker 1: place to be cleansed of some sort of influence to

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Speaker 1: the stuff you would see in the film The Exorcist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So this guy who has you know, had already

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Speaker 2: by the year nineteen ninety had a lot of experience

430
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: with exorcism. He and his buddies, his compatriots, along with

431
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 2: Jeremy Davies, they formed this organization and there are only

432
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 2: six people at this time, but then by the year

433
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 2: two thousand there are over two hundred members of this

434
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: association and the purpose of it in totality was to

435
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 2: increase the number of official exorcists across the world, which is,

436
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,719
Speaker 2: you know, I guess something you would want to do

437
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: if this is a problem that you see, and Father

438
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 2: Amwerth hoped that the existence of this organization would shed

439
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,959
Speaker 2: light on what he saw as this growing and often

440
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 2: ignored problem, which was demonic possession, real demonic possession, and

441
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 2: also a lack of priests with the knowledge and authority

442
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 2: to perform the rites of exorcism.

443
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: Important point here with that phenomenal growth from nineteen ninety

444
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: to two thousand, so from over the course of ten

445
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: years it went from six to two hundred members. It

446
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: still was not formally acknowledged or approved of by the

447
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: actual Roman Catholic Church until twenty fourteen, but a lot

448
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: of stuff was happening in the interim because of those

449
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: two hundred members in two thousand, several went to a

450
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: national meeting of exorcists organized in two thousand and four

451
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: by the Archbishop of Mexico City, Cardinal Norberto Rivera Carrera.

452
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 1: The purpose of this meeting was to fight back against

453
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: what they saw is the spread of Satanism, to discuss

454
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: ways in which to use the Word of God to

455
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: denounce everything that is against God, which isn't just it's everything.

456
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: It's similar to the approach that the NSSAY or other

457
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: post nine to eleven intelligence agencies take toward rooting out terrorism.

458
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 2: Something against national security.

459
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: National security probably a better way to put it. So

460
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: it's anything loosely associated. It's sort of mentality where everybody's

461
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: playing six degrees of Kevin Bacon, but now it's six

462
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: degrees of terrorism, six degrees of Satan. So it's not whether,

463
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: it's not whether something is openly associated with what they

464
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: see as the powers of darkness, with their by its practitioners, right,

465
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: like most people using Ouigia board are probably just playing

466
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,479
Speaker 1: a game from Parker Brothers. Right. Maybe maybe, But in

467
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: this mind they're saying, whether, regardless of whether the practitioners

468
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,959
Speaker 1: or the audience feels this is an infernal thing, we

469
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 1: are going to combat it. We are going to root

470
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: out every piece of possible influence that might be coming

471
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: through these outlets. So what kind of stuff is this?

472
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 2: Everything from witchcraft to magic, to occultism, fortune telling, the

473
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 2: New Age movements of using crystals for healing, even masonry.

474
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: Oh and important note that's freemasonry, not just brick laying.

475
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 2: Are you sure, because I don't know churches are built

476
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: of stone. Oh yeah, I guess so The meeting itself

477
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: was attended by over five hundred people. Most of these

478
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 2: people are priests. They were from all across Mexico. All

479
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,959
Speaker 2: of them were somehow involved with exorcism, whether you know

480
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 2: they were new to the game or seasoned veterans. Besides

481
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: Cardinal Carrera, other notable guests included, as we kind of

482
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: mentioned before, Father Mario Angel or Angel Flores Ramos. He

483
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: was the director of theology at the Department of the

484
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 2: Pontifical University of Mexico. Father gian Carlo Gramolazzo the president

485
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 2: of the International Association of Exorcists at the time. So

486
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 2: he is the president of the association that we discussed earlier.

487
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 2: You also had Father Gabriel Amor, the founder of that

488
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 2: association or one of the founders of that association.

489
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: He's the driving force. Yeah, President Emeritis.

490
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 2: Yeah sure.

491
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: So there's a big question that comes up here, and

492
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: oh all right, before we get to it, just to

493
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: paint some of father Amorth's character, Okay, this is an

494
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: unrelated story we found in our research that I that

495
00:33:53,120 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: I think is worthwhile. Okay, So Father Gabriel Amorth was

496
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: not just a not just an exorcist, right, Listen, to me,

497
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 1: just an exorcist. Those guys, well, you know what, they

498
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: will really mess up your weekend. Just on a side note,

499
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: so the was not merely an exorcist or did not

500
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: relegate his integrity or sense of purpose solely to these ideas.

501
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 1: He also he also fought against what he saw as

502
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: corruption within the Vatican itself. He famously in two thousand

503
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: and twelve attempted to blow the whistle on one of

504
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: the Vatican's most enduring mysteries, which was the disappearance of

505
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 1: a child named Emmanuela or Landi. In nineteen eighty three.

506
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: She disappeared. She was fifty ten years old, child of

507
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 1: a Vatican employee, and it became a mystery that was

508
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: never going to be solved, and people had made various

509
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: claims about it. In two thousand and five, an anonymous

510
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 1: caller to an Italian crime show on TV said that

511
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: you could find evidence of what happened to her in

512
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 1: the tomb of a mobster who was gunned down by

513
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: rival gangsters in the nineties. But in twenty and twelve,

514
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: Father Amorth said that the girl was abducted by people

515
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: within the Vatican and part of the establishment who had

516
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 1: a sexual motive to the crime that she was forced

517
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: to take part in child abuse parties WHOA And he

518
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: has the quote here that network involved diplomatic personnel from

519
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: a foreign embassy to the Holy See. I believe emmanuela

520
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: Holy See being the Vatican. I believe Manuela ended up

521
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 1: a victim of this circle. He told this to an

522
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: Italian newspaper called La Stampa, and he dismissed the various

523
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: plots going around that it was something some sort of wetwork,

524
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: black bag stuff between intelligence agencies, or that it was

525
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: attached to the mafia. So this was a guy who

526
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:44,760
Speaker 1: took his stand for things that he felt strongly about

527
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: and was not afraid to make enemies, which seems to

528
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: me that he may have been a divisive figure in

529
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: a place like the Vatican, which definitely practices its own

530
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: sort of America or code of silence when it comes

531
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: to these crimes. I wanted to add that I know

532
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: it's a bit of a derailment, but it is important

533
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 1: because I do think it paints his character as a

534
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: man unafraid to speak truth to power, which is an

535
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: ulto rare trait in the modern world, and probably historically

536
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 1: has been a very rare trait. But that aside, those

537
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 1: are bona fides to me in regard to his character,

538
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: even though obviously not gonna. I don't agree with the person.

539
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: I've never met the person, so I don't agree with

540
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: everything they stand for what they say. But I am

541
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: impressed when someone does their best to speak truth to

542
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: power and then leads us to ask a question. Why

543
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: did this man organize this international association? Why did he

544
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: travel to Mexico City. Why did he begin to recruit

545
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,919
Speaker 1: a cadre that later became an army of exorcists?

546
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 2: The big deal, and we'll explore it right after a

547
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 2: quick word from our sponsors.

548
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 1: We've returned, and thankfully we have an answer to this question.

549
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: We don't always have an answer to questions, but in

550
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: this case we do. The formation of these organizations marked

551
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 1: a strange trend in the world of possession reports and

552
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: exorcism request As we said, there's still no publicly available

553
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: central database tracking the number of exorcisms performed, but we're

554
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 1: able to make some guesses about general trends based on

555
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: reports from these associated organizations. Influential priests like amorp himself

556
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: or Grama Lazo, and the reports of exorcists serving in

557
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: specific archdioceses.

558
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 2: For several decades in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries,

559
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 2: reports of possession and you know, us for exorcisms had

560
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,760
Speaker 2: been on the decline. They'd been reducing in number because

561
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 2: for years after the Roman Catholic Church's Second Vatican Council,

562
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,479
Speaker 2: or what they called Vatican Two, that.

563
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 1: Was like God, everybody at our job uses that joke.

564
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, well, it resulted in new church practices, like

565
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 2: the official Church practices, that were deemed compatible with the

566
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,919
Speaker 2: contemporary world. And in this case, with this Vatican Two,

567
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 2: it was taboo for priests to speak of Satan as

568
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 2: if a physical or a Satan actually existed.

569
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 1: Right, So not Satan as a real thing, Satan as

570
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: a metaphor for the struggle to grow closer to God.

571
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: That was nineteen sixty.

572
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 2: Two, Yeah, roughly around there, sixty two sixty five. However,

573
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 2: in the more recent decades, as we're getting closer to today,

574
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 2: exorcism requests didn't just start to grow. They didn't just

575
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 2: inch a little bit on the scale. They spiked way up,

576
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 2: especially here in the United States as well as in

577
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 2: the United Kingdom, and cultural scholars will often argue that

578
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 2: this rise is coming out of the you know, possibly

579
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 2: what you could see as the spike would be the

580
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 2: premiere of The Exorcist, which became a huge.

581
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 1: Blockbuster hit nineteen seventy three.

582
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 2: Along with subsequent Satanic panic that occurred here in the

583
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 2: United States and elsewhere in the late nineteen eighties and nineties,

584
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 2: where just interest in the scary parts of possession, interest

585
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 2: in belief that maybe there's Satanism occurring in the town

586
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 2: where you live, where groups of people are getting around

587
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 2: to worship Satan and hold rituals, and to the true believers, however,

588
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 2: this is a signal of something much larger at play.

589
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: And this rise was such that as of twenty sixteen,

590
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: despite the formation of the Internationalist Nsociation of Exorcists, the

591
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 1: Catholic Church was having serious problems fielding all requests for exorcisms,

592
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: as many of the older exorcists were aging out or dying,

593
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 1: and many of the newer, less experienced priests were frightened

594
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 1: of enacting the rights. And again, this is you know,

595
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: serious stuff in this world. These individuals will be priests

596
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: for decades before they tackle their first you know, real exorcism.

597
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:37,240
Speaker 1: Quote unquote to use the description in How Exorcism Works,

598
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 1: yet again a fantastic article by House of Works. I

599
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: did not write it, so I feel fine bragging about it.

600
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: It was written by Julia Layton, who always does wonderful

601
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: work for us. Two of the most prominent exorcists in

602
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: the United States, a fellow named Father Gary Thomas and

603
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: a fellow n in Father Vincent Lampert. Note that it's

604
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: not the church demanding more exorcisms, which it can do right.

605
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: It was on church orders that Mother Teresa was actually

606
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: exercised before her death, but rather the people, the lay folk,

607
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 1: and Father Lambert's experience. Only one out of every five

608
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: thousand or so request is someone afflicted by a full

609
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: demonic possession. He does say, however, that he is conducted

610
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: countless exorcisms related to demonic obsession, demonic vexation, and demonic infestation.

611
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:41,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, you'll also hear demonic oppression amongst those terms, where

612
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 2: it's slightly different, little different things going on. But it's

613
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 2: not a human being that has a demon inside of

614
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:49,760
Speaker 2: them that needs to get.

615
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: Out, okay, right, So it's some kind of external.

616
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 2: A lot of times externally.

617
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: So maybe there might be a physical malady.

618
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 2: Or being influenced in some way.

619
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: Sure, and Father Lamport also says that half the calls

620
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: he receives are from non Catholics.

621
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 2: Hmm.

622
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: And this, this is interesting. This is a point that

623
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 1: we need to make in defense of the Catholic Church's

624
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: process here a defense of the Church overall, of course,

625
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 1: But there's a pretty rigorous system built for the analysis

626
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: of an initial possession report. Because the Catholic Church and

627
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,359
Speaker 1: the exorcists in the church are trained to come at

628
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: this from a very skeptical place. The first thing they

629
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 1: will do is consult with everyone else to find any

630
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: other cause.

631
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 2: With people of science we're talking about, Yeah, people's psychologists

632
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 2: come out and make sure there's nothing else going on.

633
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 2: I see an actual physician, make sure there's no other malady.

634
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 2: I have to say that that part of this whole

635
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 2: process does make me, I don't know, think there might

636
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 2: be a little more sand to it, because the Church

637
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 2: itself as an organization is saying, well, we're going to

638
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 2: weed out the stuff that isn't actually possession.

639
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 1: Well, and also to be objective about it. The Catholic

640
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 1: Church is such a massive organization that if there were

641
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: not some sort of filtration system. It would just be

642
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: nundated these things, and it already it already is. We

643
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 1: think about the donations donation or donations mandatory.

644
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 2: No, what I'm saying if you charged, if you had

645
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 2: mandatory donations for the performing the rights of exorcism and

646
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 2: you have that many requests coming.

647
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: In, that is diabolical. That it is a terrible, terrible thing.

648
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 1: Oh boy, you know what, Father Gabriel Amor would not approve.

649
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: He has passed from this mortal plane. The organization, the

650
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:25,320
Speaker 1: Association of Exorcists rather still exist and the current president

651
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 1: would probably also disagree.

652
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have some quotes from him, father of Francesco Bamonte.

653
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 2: He says, quote, when listening to a prayer to the Virgin,

654
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:40,479
Speaker 2: the demon shows all of his hatred and fear toward her.

655
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 2: He is forced to confirm that Mary is the mother

656
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 2: of God and that she intercedes for humanity. Satan is

657
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 2: not the God of evil against the God of good. Rather,

658
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 2: he is a being who God created as good and who,

659
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 2: with some angels also created good by God, became evil

660
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 2: because they refused God and his kingdom with their free

661
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,720
Speaker 2: and final choice. Satan and the spirits at his service. Therefore,

662
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 2: are not omnipotent beings. They cannot perform miracles, they are

663
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 2: not omnipresent, They cannot know our thoughts or the future.

664
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 2: And just to know that that is a man speaking

665
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 2: in twenty sixteen. The current president of the International Association

666
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 2: of Exorcists truly believes, at least himself and in the

667
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 2: fairly large organization that he represents and heads, believes that

668
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 2: that is true. That is a problem that humanity must

669
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 2: be must continue to deal with.

670
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 1: And they very much believe. Both monte and when he

671
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 1: was alive, very much believe that the that Satan is

672
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: a real thing. Right that a more Also, in regard

673
00:46:55,920 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: to the sexual scandals and corruption rocking the Vatican, he

674
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:05,839
Speaker 1: believed there was evidence of corruption by the Antichrist, so

675
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 1: the foretold and much feared force of Satan embodied on

676
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:18,839
Speaker 1: the planet. Right, he thought I was real and there

677
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:25,359
Speaker 1: both of these, Both of these individuals and many of

678
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: the people serving in the International Association of Exorcists believe

679
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 1: that this rise in possession arise in reports of it

680
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 1: in an increasingly secular world, come about in reaction to

681
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 1: and relation with the division between spirituality and science. Right

682
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:58,760
Speaker 1: as we said in this quote, So are people more

683
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 1: likely to be pass to say that would would require

684
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: us to say that possession itself is real or something

685
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: like it? Or are people just searching for some sort

686
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 1: of spiritual explanation that they find lacking an increasingly unspiritual

687
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 1: world at the time. Uncertain times and uncertain times, no

688
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: kidding man. At the time of this recording, exorcisms continue

689
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: to be on the rise. For the more skeptical in

690
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 1: the crowd, or those who wouldn't subscribe to the idea

691
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 1: of Catholicism or the Catholic perspective on exorcism, this indicates

692
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:46,800
Speaker 1: hysteria or failure to recognize the difference between a good

693
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:52,720
Speaker 1: popcorn worthy horror flick and the facts. For the true believers, however,

694
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: the late Father of Morth among them, this is indicative

695
00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: of something else, something larger, something very dangerous and all

696
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: too frighteningly real. It is important to say that he

697
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: is not alone or was not alone, nor were his colleagues.

698
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 1: Other organizations have formed to combat the rising tide of

699
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 1: alleged possession and the rising request for exorcisms. There's the

700
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 1: Pope Leo, the Twelfth Institute based in Milwaukee, which was

701
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 1: founded in twenty twelve to support the quote spiritual formation

702
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 1: of priests, bring the light of Christ to dispel evil. Wow.

703
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, And this thing it started as this just a

704
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 2: series of meetings, informal meetings at the request of bishops

705
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 2: in the United States. It wanted they wanted training. Really,

706
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 2: they needed more people who could perform exorcisms, so they

707
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 2: wanted education and training, and it was just It's also

708
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 2: a response to Pope Saint John Paul the Second's recommendation

709
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 2: that every single diocey should have an appointed exorcist, and

710
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 2: a spokesperson with the United States Bishop's Conference said, although

711
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 2: ideally every diocese should have its own exorcists, there are

712
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 2: no statistics kept by the Church to the actual the

713
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,919
Speaker 2: factual numbers of how many exorcists there actually are.

714
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: There are also classes and courses offered by the Church

715
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 1: on exorcism, and the Catholic Church has actively been training

716
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 1: experienced priests in the nuts and bolts of exorcism, how

717
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:30,279
Speaker 1: to evaluate a case from day one, how to request permission,

718
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 1: and ultimately, if need be, how to act, how to

719
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 1: enact the right Here and on a side note, for this,

720
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: we should also acknowledge that while we have focused on

721
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church's efforts to combat this rise in exorcism request,

722
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 1: they are not alone in the game. Other Christian denominations

723
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: evangelical as well, have also begun conduct combating what they

724
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: see as a rise in possessions in spiritual afflictions from

725
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 1: demonic forces. This is a rising tide across multiple things.

726
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: I guess what we're emphasizing here is this is not

727
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: a matter of three elderly or six elderly priests high

728
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: up in the Vatican social hierarchy who were able to

729
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: push through something that they were interested in, like that

730
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 1: high level executive at Sony who is able to push

731
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: through psychic experiments. Right, And this doesn't seem to end

732
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: after some of these folks have passed away. And we

733
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: want to ask you, we want to end more on

734
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 1: a question. Here, is possession or something like it real?

735
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 1: And do you think that these spiritual interpretations of it

736
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: are accurate or do you think they are a cultural

737
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 1: framework on something else? Right?

738
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 2: And if so, what yah And what's the closest you

739
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 2: have come to experiencing a possession or exorcism? Have you

740
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 2: been looking peered through a door and seen one. Have

741
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 2: you been a part of one? We would love to

742
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 2: hear your stories.

743
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 1: And then, perhaps more importantly, I won't speak for you, Matt,

744
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: but from I am more importantly, why is it on

745
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 1: the rise? Because that's the spookiest thing. Whether or not

746
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 1: you believe in this, whether or not you are Catholic,

747
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 1: whether or not you are spiritual in an any remote

748
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 1: six degrees of Kevin Bacon's sense of the term, it

749
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: is inarguable that these reports and requests are rising speak,

750
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 1: you know, fantastic segues. It's time for our corner.

751
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:11,280
Speaker 2: Our first tweet comes from what up Saucy. Saucy says, Wow,

752
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 2: I'm still my pants from that gloomy Sunday episode. Well done, gentlemen,

753
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 2: hashtag Thursday.

754
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: Well thank you, thank you so much. We all, we

755
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: all really, uh we already all really put some blood,

756
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 1: sweat and tears and some late nights into that one,

757
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: and we're so glad that someone enjoyed it.

758
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, people have been asking us for

759
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:39,799
Speaker 2: an unbleeped version, an uncensored version, but I don't think

760
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 2: you're gonna get one unless you search for it, and

761
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 2: you can find it online somewhere through the fringe festival,

762
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 2: which you might be able to. I, you know, I

763
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 2: would love to.

764
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 1: I would love to get some version of that out.

765
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 1: We also have a When we originally wrote it, we

766
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,840
Speaker 1: had no idea that we would eventually put it on

767
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:04,919
Speaker 1: this show. No, so we really leaned into some language there.

768
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 1: But yeah, maybe we can get an uncentered version out.

769
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:10,879
Speaker 1: We'll look for it. But we also will have some

770
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,800
Speaker 1: more things like that on the way. So if you

771
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 1: enjoy that, stay tuned, and if you'd like to hear

772
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:21,359
Speaker 1: more of them, write to our bosses directly, tag how

773
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: stuff works wherever you find the social media platform, say

774
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: we want more of this, and who knows.

775
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 2: It might happen. You might make it come true.

776
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:36,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, you might manifest it. Right. We have another shout

777
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 1: out from Kate Landis, who says conspiracy stuff. I once

778
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 1: went to the doctor for an abscess. They told me

779
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 1: that antibiotics don't do anything for a normal absess, but

780
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:48,880
Speaker 1: that doctors like to prescribe them to make the patient

781
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 1: feel like something is being done. Then they prescribed me antibiotics.

782
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 1: I didn't take them.

783
00:54:55,600 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 2: Hmmm, good on you, Kat Kate Kite, Kate ay Kite.

784
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: I think it's Kate, oh with a little Australians.

785
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Kite linis I will.

786
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 1: I heard one of our I was checking on some

787
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:12,279
Speaker 1: of one of our earlier episodes and you did a

788
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:13,800
Speaker 1: great Australian accent.

789
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 2: You know. I did the same thing, and you were

790
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 2: amazing at your Australian accent, did I?

791
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 1: Yeah? Oh? Really? Yeah? Oh man, Okay, Well I can

792
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 1: only do it for maybe four very specific words, and

793
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 1: unfortunately none of them form a COHERI. But but to

794
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: Kate's points, that's that's a very valid concern. We know

795
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 1: that the over prescription of antibiotics has been a literal

796
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 1: case of something they don't want you to know.

797
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, making all the stuff that those antibiotics are supposed

798
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:48,680
Speaker 2: to fight even stronger if you don't take the full

799
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:53,240
Speaker 2: dose in the right amount of time, right, and uh yeah,

800
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 2: it's it's really bad. So then everybody else taking antibiotics

801
00:55:57,120 --> 00:55:59,839
Speaker 2: decreases their ability to fight the thing because the thing

802
00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:00,760
Speaker 2: is now stronger.

803
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 1: We should maybe we should look into some of that,

804
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 1: the current state of antibiotics. We did Rise of the Superbug,

805
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 1: but I don't know if we've looked at I don't

806
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 1: know if we've looked at it too recently, and unfortunately

807
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 1: the situation is changing.

808
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 2: Only getting worse.

809
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 1: Man, I've pulled up Pandemic too again, that online game,

810
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 1: and I started to play it and it just got

811
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 1: too depressing because it could happen.

812
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's a little too real for my taste. Well,

813
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:35,919
Speaker 2: thank you for writing to us. When our last shout

814
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 2: out for the day comes from Sunshine Kid twenty one

815
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:41,920
Speaker 2: and Sunshine Kid twenty one says, could you guys do

816
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 2: a podcast about root canals? I heard it was a

817
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 2: scam and it causes health problems, et cetera. Thanks. I

818
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 2: love the podcasts root canals as a conspiracy.

819
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 1: That's interesting. I had heard that the metal filling that

820
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 1: is used Malcolm, that is, is that what it is

821
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:08,919
Speaker 1: amalgam that is used in cavities can have dangerous health

822
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 1: effects potentially root canals I'm not too aware of, but

823
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 1: I will say it's honestly surprising that dentistry uses some

824
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 1: of the same old techniques and has for quite a while,

825
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 1: for decades. But it would be interesting to look into.

826
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 2: Oh do you see that it's Josh and Chuck. They're

827
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 2: waving at us get out of the studio.

828
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: Oh, I thought that was just a hello wave. Okay,

829
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 1: well I've just been waving to them for like five minutes,

830
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 1: so sorry.

831
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 2: Maybe that's all they're doing. Oh nope, nope, I'm pretty

832
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 2: sure I know what that sign means.

833
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 1: You're holding up a sign. It says this is the

834
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 1: end of your and they are correct. However, it is

835
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 1: not the end of the show. Matt, Paul, Nol and

836
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 1: I will be back very soon. We hope that you

837
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 1: will join us as well. In the meantime, you can

838
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 1: find us on Instagram, Twitter, You can find us on.

839
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 2: Facebook, yeah, Facebook, and that stuff they don't want you

840
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 2: to know, dot Com where you can find every episode

841
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 2: we've ever produced, and some videos and some other stuff.

842
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 2: Pictures of Ben. If you want to look at pictures

843
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 2: of Ben, go to stuff they don't want you to

844
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 2: know dot com.

845
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 1: You really sold me out on now one.

846
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 2: And they're pictures of me too, And.

847
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 1: There're a lot and you can find various different stories

848
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 1: up for one reason or another might not make it

849
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 1: on the show yet.

850
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 2: Hey, are you listening to Ridiculous History yet? You should be.

851
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 2: It's the show that our friends Ben and Noel are hosting.

852
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 2: It is really fun and you guys are doing some

853
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 2: really fun stuff with guests on your show that you've

854
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 2: discussed with me about, and then I've been listening to

855
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 2: it as a fan because it's really really fun. Specifically

856
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 2: with our complaint department here on this show, mister Jonathan Strickland.

857
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, who is available for any complaints or concerns

858
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, Jonathan

859
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 1: dot Strickland at HowStuffWorks dot com. And you know we

860
00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 1: value the complaints gip us honest. Make sure you send

861
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Speaker 1: them to the right address so we can treat them

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00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 1: with the import they deserve. You might be asking why

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00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 1: why my longtime colleague Matt is not on the show

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00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 1: A Ridiculous History. There is a reason. It turns out

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Speaker 1: that Matt is one of the masterminds behind one of

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Speaker 1: the most popular shows on Apple podcast as we speak,

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Speaker 1: Atlanta Monster. If you like this show, you will love

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Speaker 1: Atlanta Monster.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, subscribe today, new episodes every Friday. We're looking into

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Speaker 2: the missing and murdered children cases from nineteen seventy nine

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00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 2: to eighty one in Atlanta. So you know, start listening

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00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 2: if you're not already. And that's the end of this

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Speaker 2: classic episode. If you have any thoughts or questions about

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Speaker 2: this episode. You can get into contact with us in

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Speaker 2: do that, you can send us a good old fashioned email.

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Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

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Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production

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