WEBVTT - Trump's Deployment of Troops Questioned 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:13.280 President Donald Trump's efforts to send troops into democratic led 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:17.439 cities is facing its biggest legal tests yet, with a 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:20.600 trial this week over his power to deploy the National 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.600 Guard to Portland, Oregon to counter protests. And of course 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:27.240 there is the deployment to Chicago, which is in a 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:31.600 holding mode right now before the Supreme Court. My guest 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:35.200 is immigration law expert Leon Fresco, a partner at Holland 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:42.280 and Knight. There are lawsuits challenging Trump's deployments in Los Angeles, Chicago, Portland, 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:46.000 and DC making their way through the courts. Have any 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:50.320 of them so far answered the question of whether he 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:55.880 legally invoked Section twelve four h six of Title ten 0:00:56.200 --> 0:01:01.600 to bring state National Guard troops under federal cos well. 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:04.960 The closest cases that have done this are the two 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:10.160 to one panel decision in the Portland case, where the 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:14.080 Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in favor of President Trump. 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:18.320 And they said that the way a court analyzes this, 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:20.920 they're allowed to analyze it. So at least they got 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:23.680 that far. They didn't say that the courts can't analyze it, 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:27.080 but they said they have to use a highly deferential 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:31.360 test and that the standard of review was quote, whether 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:34.720 there was a colorable assessment of the facts in law 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:38.080 within a range of honest judgment, which is a highly 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:42.800 deferential standard that basically said, if the President had any 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:47.360 sort of decent argument for saying that the Guard needed 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:52.320 to be deployed in order to either enforce federal law 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:57.640 or prevent rebellion circumstances, that would be enough. The dissenting 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:00.000 judge said, no, no, no, this is just like a normal 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:04.560 factual question where you have a hearing or a trial 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:07.600 and you come to the factual decision like any trial, 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.400 was there a murder, yes or no, it's not any 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:15.359 difference that's given you have a trial, and in this case, 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:19.600 whoever wins under a preponderance of the evidence standard would win. 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:24.480 And the dissenting judge said that there wasn't enough evidence 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:28.360 that there was actually any sort of rebellion or other 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:31.519 issues in Portland. And so now this two to one 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:34.240 decision is now going to go to on bank review. 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:38.720 The Chief Judge said for the court, without needing anybody 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:41.840 to ask, the Chief Judge, there should be on bank review. 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:44.480 And now there's going to be on bank review to 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:50.480 determine whether that two to one decision would apply. In Chicago, 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:56.160 we have a similar situation where the City of Chicago 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.560 and the State of Illinois also sued, arguing that the 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:04.480 deployment of the National Guard in the Chicago areas also 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:07.960 violated the Statute and the Tenth Amendment and the posse 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:12.960 comitatis law, which prevents federal troops from enforcing civil laws. 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:16.960 And the judge in that case issued a temporary restraining order. 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:22.080 The Seventh Circuit upheld the ruling, and the President Trump 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:25.160 asked the Supreme Court to lift the tro And now 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:28.400 the Supreme Court in that case has asked for additional 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:34.639 briefing to try to determine whether these words regular forces 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.720 in the Statute means military forces, and then how that 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:43.920 interpretation affects the president's authority to federalize the Guard. And 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:47.040 so at the moment, that's where we are on these things. 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:51.960 We don't know exactly what the president can do, what 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:54.680 the standard of review is, et cetera. 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:57.240 So let's go to the Supreme Court for a second. 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:00.840 And you know that's because the Trump administration filed an 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:06.360 emergency petition to allow them to deploy the troops to Chicago. 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:11.240 So nine days past before the justices issued this order 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:14.800 requesting more information. And this has been a court that's 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:19.920 been very quick to answer Trump's emergency requests, usually in 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:23.160 his favor. What does it tell you that with this request, 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:28.120 they're asking about the specific wording of the law, which 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.240 says a president may deploy the guard when he is 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:35.800 quote unable with the regular forces to execute the laws 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:37.000 of the United States. 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:42.400 What is interesting is they're trying to figure out because 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:46.040 there's two different types of I would say armed personnel 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:51.120 that's discussed. One is regular forces. So who are these 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:55.160 regular forces that the president is allowed to use? And 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:59.039 then when those quote unquote regular forces fail, then the 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:02.880 president is allowed to call in federal service members and 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:05.800 units of the National Guard of any state. So the 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.640 question is does regular forces mean that the president can 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:13.760 already send in military troops. That's a little bit complicated 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:17.159 because of it is then who are these federal service 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:21.200 members that the president is then allowed to send in 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:24.240 plus the units of the National Guard of any state. 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:28.120 So that's the question. Does it mean US military forces 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:32.000 or does it mean people like FBI, you know, Homeland 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.839 security investigation and things of that nature, so sort of 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:41.480 federal police power force type people, but not actual US 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:45.600 military troops. I think it would make a lot less 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:51.720 sense if regular forces didn't just mean FBI ice HSI, 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.040 that kind of thing, the sort of people who enforce 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:58.200 the federal law, the ATF that kind of group as 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:01.280 opposed to the military. Because of it also meant the military. 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:05.240 Then who are these quote unquote federal service members that 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:09.200 can be called into service if the quote unquote regular 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:13.040 forces are not able to execute the law. So that's 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:15.120 what I think it means, but we'll have to wait 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:17.680 and see what the Supreme Court says. It means. 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:19.920 They don't seem to be in a hurry to decide 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:24.840 because the briefing schedule puts the briefings up until November seventeenth, 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:28.279 and then they have to decide. So that means what 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:31.839 three weeks or so where there won't be any deployment 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:33.560 of troops, correct. 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:35.680 I mean, this is one of the most complicated and 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:40.440 important consequential questions probably that the Supreme Court has had 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:43.919 in the last couple of decades, because it really does 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.680 get to the heart of what a president can and 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:51.919 can't do. With regard to using the military in the 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:54.960 normal streets of the big cities of America. So this 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:58.480 is not something to trivialize or to issue any kind 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:01.760 of quick ruling on. And I think if there was 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:06.480 an actual place in America right now that was ungovernable 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.600 and where people couldn't go to work and there were 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:15.080 barricades everywhere and nobody could go to school, maybe there 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:19.120 would be urgency here. But that's not really the urgency 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:21.720 anyone is talking about. There's not a city in America 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.080 where no one can go to work, or go to school, 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.640 or get treated in a hospital or any of those 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:30.560 major things. At all of these cities. Sports events are 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:34.080 still going on, Concerts are still going on, all of 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:37.320 these things, and so it's hard to say there's an 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:40.840 interrection going on. In a true national emergency where none 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:43.520 of those things were going on, maybe we'd have a 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:46.200 faster ruling. But I think the Court understands here it's 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:47.560 better to get it right. 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:51.560 But is a Supreme Court to look at the facts 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:54.000 or are they going to look at the law and 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:55.200 interpret that. 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:58.520 Well, no, I'm saying they're looking at these facts unofficially 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:02.560 to determine how fast they're going in the speed of 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:05.120 the case. But I think what they're going to look 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.080 at for the decision in the case is the level 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:12.880 of defference that the President's determination gets. And then based 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:17.160 on the level of defference, they may remand for a 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.680 trial or hearing based on that level of difference, or 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:24.120 they may decide they have enough evidence to move forward 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:27.840 with that level of difference and decide, here's what the 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:32.080 facts dictate. Based on the level of difference, we decide. 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:34.480 So it could go either of those two ways, but 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:37.160 we'll just have to wait for the Supreme Court to say. 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:39.720 And plus that may end up being different in Chicago 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:43.280 versus in Portland or in Los Angeles. They may decide 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:47.160 that there is a bigger crisis in one location than 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.880 in another, and so in one location they can deploy 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.199 the federal troops, and in another location they cannot because 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:58.040 it doesn't rise to whatever new standard they decided to 0:08:58.120 --> 0:08:59.120 apply in this case. 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.720 Let's turned out to Greg Bavino, the chief of the 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:09.480 Border Patrol's El Centro sector in California, who's been very 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:15.280 high profile in the Trump Administration's crackdowns on immigration in 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:20.480 sanctuary cities. He's been three decades with the Border Patrol, 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:24.880 and he's emerged as the face of the Trump administration's 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:31.319 most aggressive operations against migrants in these democratic led cities. 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.040 Well, he comes from the Border Patrol, from the US 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:37.640 Customs of Border Protection. He doesn't come from ICE, which 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:41.480 is the Immigration and Customs Enforcement division that actually is 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:47.160 in charge with the detention, apprehension, and removal of people 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:50.120 who are here illegally. That's who does it. It's nice. 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:53.480 The Border Patrol has a different mission. They have two 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:57.240 different parts. They have one that protects the United States 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:00.560 from people trying to cross in between ports of entry, 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:03.200 and they have a second mission of guarding ports of 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:07.400 entry themselves so that people don't get through the ports 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:10.959 of entry who shouldn't get through. And this is the 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:14.319 area of the Border Patrol where mister Baveno comes from. 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:16.960 And this has happened in the past because what happens 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:20.920 is that within the Department of Homeland Security they get 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:23.840 the impression that the people who come through the Border 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:29.040 Patrol have a more police oriented view of the world 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:32.520 because that's what they're doing. They're actually walking around looking 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:36.040 for crime, so to speak. If they see someone cross 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:37.959 the border, then they're going to apprehend them the same 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:40.960 way a police officer if they see someone robbing a store, 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:46.480 they will apprehend them. Whereas ICE traditionally doesn't have that 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:51.400 ethos of operating as roving cops on a beat. They 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:54.760 have more of a here's a list of people we 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:58.720 are passed with deporting today, and now we need to 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.280 either go pick them up at work, or pick them 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:03.480 up in the courthouse, or pick them up at home, 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:08.280 and it's a much more targeted planned day. That's how 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:11.560 ICE likes to operate, is within the targeted planned day 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:15.960 for operational concerns. And this has developed over thirty years. 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:18.560 This is not something that's happened over a day or two. 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:23.000 Because what happens is when ICE starts operating in the 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.520 same way local police would start operating, which is just 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:31.360 look around and try to find crime, then what you're 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.640 doing is looking around and trying to find people who 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:38.720 are there illegally. So just their existence in America is 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:43.079 the crime. And whether you like this policy or don't 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:46.240 like the policy, I'm not even saying anything about the policy. 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:50.719 I would just hope that the listeners of your broadcast 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.920 would agree that whether you like it or not when 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:58.400 that gets implemented. When ICE gets deployed in the same 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:02.600 way local police would be deployed, it creates tension on 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:06.600 both sides of the equation, where the people who don't 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:11.840 like ICE deployed in that manner start protesting, start barricading ICE, 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.920 start hiding people in their houses, and start doing everything 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:19.080 they can to resist ICE operating in that manner. And 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:22.280 this isn't even new either. You can find stories about 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:25.600 this every day for the last thirty years. It's just 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:27.320 that when you do it at a higher scale, you 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:31.360 get more of it. Or if you don't do this, 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:33.560 then you have the people who say, well, we're not 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.920 getting enough arrests, And it's true, you're not going to 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:41.520 get enough arrests if you don't have these roving enforcement 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:45.160 arrests that happened where you could just grab thirty people 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:48.199 at one place at one location just because you think 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:51.520 it looks suspicious there. Yes, that will increase the number 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:55.720 of arrests, but that also increases the level of tension 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.760 that you're tightening in that area when you do that. 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:00.640 And again I'm not thinking that, I mean you should 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:04.520 do it or you shouldn't do it, but that's why 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:08.840 the Trump administration has moved a lot of the ICE 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:12.520 agents who are leading these various local locations out of 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:15.800 their positions and is trying to bring in border patrol 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.480 people like mister Bovino, because it's saying we need to 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:23.480 change the ethos of ICE and turn it into a 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:28.560 police like unit that's roving around looking for crime, so 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:31.360 to speak. But in this case, again, the crime is 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:34.680 just the existence of the human being in America, which 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.640 is what makes it complicated. So you're not observing someone 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:42.440 stealing something, or you're not observing someone injuring somebody. You're 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:46.960 just observing someone standing there and you're asking yourself, is 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:52.000 this person that's standing there standing there illegally and you 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:55.400 don't know they might be, they might not be. But 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:58.840 the act of asking, over and over and over again 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.760 creates a level of tension that's completely different than any 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:06.800 other kind of police operation creates. And that's why I, 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:10.560 as I explained previously, I prefers the ethos of saying, look, 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.720 I'm sorry, this person Joe Smith is on a list, 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.200 they committed a crime or they were ordered deported in 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.040 two thousand and eight, and they've managed to stay here 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.000 seventeen years. Why do you think that you should defend 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:27.440 this person. That's a much easier law enforcement role to defend, 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:30.640 and that's why they like that as opposed to these 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:31.960 roving operations. 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.160 Coming up next, the governor of Illinois makes a Halloween 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:42.920 request to ice. A group of journalists, news advocacy organizations, 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:47.480 and protesters are suing the government, claiming that federal agents 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:52.760 aggressive tactics in Chicago violated their rights. The case has 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:56.120 grown into something of a referendum on the repeated use 0:14:56.160 --> 0:15:01.120 of force by federal agents in the Trump administration crackdown 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:05.840 on illegal immigration. I've been talking to immigration lawyer Leon 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:10.680 Fresco of Honda Night Soully on in that Chicago case. 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:16.520 Federal Judge Sarah Ellis has issued some orders, including requiring 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:21.680 agents to wear visible identification and issue warnings before using 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:25.880 weapons like tear gas or pepper spray. And she's expressed 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:30.920 alarm over videos and photographs that show the agents confronting 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:37.240 protesters and deploying teargas at a weekend Halloween event. We've 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:41.720 been talking about Greg Bavino, the Border Patrol chief, and 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:44.680 she had him on the stand for about an hour 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:48.520 the other day, asking him about the enforcement tactics, and 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.200 she ordered him to come back every day to report 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:55.240 to her. But the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals paused 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:55.800 that order. 0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:00.760 Why well, the Seventh Circuit issued a vary shit decision 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:03.840 putting it on hold. But we can infer from that 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:07.640 that they agreed with the government's argument that the problem is, 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:10.400 and you have to look at this from a practical perspective, 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:14.120 not just from a well, what's the problem with one 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:17.120 hour of coming in and speaking to the judge every day? 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:19.480 But the truth is, if you're doing that, if you're 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:22.840 speaking to the judge every day for one hour, you're 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.520 legitimately preparing to give that testimony. Because no one just 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.800 sends a witness in to speak to a federal judge 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:34.200 without preparation for the testimony, giving them facts, giving them 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:37.680 everything that's happening that day. So basically, you will have 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:40.880 turned the head of the law enforcement operation into a 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:44.520 professional witness. This person wouldn't actually be able to do 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:47.880 any other work all day. Their entire day would be 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:51.200 devoted to learning the facts that they were going to 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:54.800 give the judge that day, preparing the testimony, and then 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:57.680 testifying that That would be an entire day of work, 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:01.640 and the federal government said, that's that been a thing 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:05.400 that's ever existed where we've ever had a federal judge 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:10.440 turn a US law enforcement official into a federal witness 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:13.439 that has to come every day and just do that 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:16.480 and not actually do the job they're supposed to do. 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:21.280 And they point out the federal government correctly that even 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:23.600 the plaintiffs didn't ask for this, This was just something 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:27.840 the judge did out of frustration with the federal government. 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.760 So the plaintiffs didn't ask for it, because I doubt 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.760 they would have even imagined the world where such relief 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:36.719 could have ever been granted. But the judge was so 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:40.120 frustrated that the judge granted the relief. And so I 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.760 do think it was very helpful to the federal government 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.320 to make an argument that, hey, if the plaintiffs don't 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:49.359 want something, why is the judge ordering it. 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:52.240 Still in place? Is her order that Bevino wear a 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:55.880 body camera and the government has to turn over all 0:17:55.920 --> 0:18:00.280 reports documenting when agents used force against members of the 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:04.959 public and also the body camera video by tomorrow. 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:07.440 So correct, all of the sort of what I would 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:11.720 call transparency requirements and the use of force are all 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:14.760 still in effect, and we will wait and see what 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:18.919 both the Seventh Circuit says in principle at the end 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:21.640 of this and maybe what the Supreme Court says, and 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.520 if that is hell to be in effect, and that 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:27.520 could be something that could actually apply to all of 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:30.879 the ICE agents nationwide, is that they have to have 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:35.080 this sort of use of force transparency that didn't exist previously, 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:38.199 and they'll have to wear body cameras, they'll have to 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:43.040 identify themselves. They can't wear masks, and that would be 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:46.760 a dramatic change from the operating events in a lot 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:48.120 of places right now. 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.880 They all wear masks except for Bevino. He doesn't wear 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:52.359 a mask. 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:55.719 He seems to be very confident in this, there's no 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:56.359 doubt about that. 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:59.919 Apparently the Trump administration really likes him. Is there a 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.400 shake up? Then? Is the Trump administration trying to rely 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:06.760 more on the border patrol, which you know a lot 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:12.480 of these aggressive actions that we see are border patrol, 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:13.480 not ICE. 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:18.160 Correct, That's what's exactly happening, is the way ICE operates. Yes, 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:22.160 they're headquartered in DC. Yes they're part of Homeland Security. Yes, 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:24.880 they're part of the federal government and controlled by the President, 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:27.960 but they have all these local field offices, and in 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:31.200 the end, each local field office basically operates as its 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:35.600 own satellite that has its own policies, And so it matters. 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:39.359 If you have a field office director who is much 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:43.399 more oriented toward a aggressive enforcement posture, you're going to 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:47.440 have more aggressive enforcement in that field office area. Then 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.200 if you have a field office director who's not focused 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:53.800 as much on an aggressive enforcement posture. And so in 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:57.760 about six or seven cities, the administration has decided to 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:01.040 replace the field office directors that were there from ICE, 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:05.200 move them to DC, and replace them with people who 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:08.080 are coming from the Border Patrol to again have this 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:11.840 sort of focus on roving enforcement that we were talking 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:15.439 about earlier, where instead of looking for a set number 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:18.520 of people each day that ICE had determined based on 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:22.760 investigations the previous day or the previous week, it would 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:25.200 actually say, no, we're going to go to a more 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.840 aggressive posture and start questioning people on the streets about 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:31.240 whether they have a right to be in the United States. 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:33.760 I haven't heard the answer yet, but the governor of 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:39.320 Illinois asked ICE not to do any enforcement actions on 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:40.360 Halloween weekend. 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:43.600 I think that's the type of thing where the way 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:47.359 that usually gets resolved is there isn't an answer given 0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:51.480 that capitulates to the governor's request, But it's just obviously 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:55.520 done in a way where Ice knows that they don't 0:20:55.560 --> 0:21:01.680 want another conflagration happening during Halloween. They detain somebody who 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:04.640 shouldn't have been detained, and now everybody's in that sort 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:09.680 of Halloween frantic mode and riots start happening, and all 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:13.560 kinds of craziness occurs. And so I do think you're 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:17.560 not gonna see an answer that says, Okay, Governor Pritzker, 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.040 we agree with you. We're not going to enforce the 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:24.640 law on Halloween. All of these enforcement officers, everybody has 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:26.520 to remember our human beings. 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:29.919 Well, don't you think that Bevino. I mean, the point is, 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:33.480 and why the Trump administration likes him, is to put 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:37.879 fear into the hearts of immigrants so that they self deport. 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:41.200 I mean, the videos are pretty brutal. 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:44.600 Well, the point is this, at the end of the day, 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:50.840 putting aside again any personal opinions anybody has, whoever leads 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:55.240 the operation still relies upon people who live in those communities, 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:59.600 who work in those communities, and an inertia gets created 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:03.120 in all of this despite what people think, where that 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:09.000 inertia only allows certain amounts of limitations of conduct to occur. 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:13.199 And that's why you've seen the administration get frustrated and 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:15.800 they say, look, we were at we wanted three thousand 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:18.680 arrests a day, we were at two thousand. We thought 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:20.280 we were going to get there. Now we're back at 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:24.400 one thousand. What is happening? What's going on? And all 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:27.760 of this ignores that all of this enforcement needs to 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:31.080 be done by human beings who have morale issues, who, 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:33.200 by the way, aren't getting paid right now because the 0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:36.760 government is shut down, and are worried about are they 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:38.800 going to be able to keep their house, Are they 0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:41.160 going to be able to make their car payments? Are 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:43.280 they going to be able to pay their medical bills? 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:46.720 The last thing they're worried about is I want to 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:50.040 start creating a massive riot on Halloween. I don't think 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:53.840 that's a high priority for these poor agents who aren't 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:57.480 getting paid right now. And so I just think, regardless 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:00.560 of who the leaders are, and regardless even of the 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:04.040 message given, there is a certain amount of inertia that 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:07.600 exists there where people you can only take them so far. 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:10.879 And yes, people want to enforce the immigration law, and 0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:13.960 the people there at Ice strongly believe in the importance 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:18.080 of enforcing the immigration law. But there's an operational reality 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:21.119 there that they face every day and that they've seen 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:24.600 over the course of years that when you push things 0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:28.480 too far, they know that then it becomes very difficult 0:23:28.520 --> 0:23:30.720 to unwind that. And so they're just trying to get 0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:33.800 an equilibrium where they can enforce the law as strictly 0:23:33.840 --> 0:23:38.200 as they can while still maintaining other forms of order 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:39.119 in the society. 0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:44.600 On another issue, Vice President JD. Vance yesterday advocated a 0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:48.520 slow down in legal immigration. We have to get the 0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:52.520 overall numbers way way down, but he didn't offer a 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:53.280 firm number. 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:57.080 I think people need to have a realistic understanding of this. 0:23:57.200 --> 0:23:59.520 And this is something because I teach immigration law at 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:03.040 various law schools and that's my first class each semester. 0:24:03.160 --> 0:24:05.560 As I tell people and I explain, and I say, 0:24:05.560 --> 0:24:08.440 look in America right now, we have three hundred and 0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:12.560 fifty million people. And each year, unless it's a year 0:24:12.600 --> 0:24:15.080 like a COVID year where everything is out of control 0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:17.919 and it's not a normal year, if you are just 0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:21.800 running the course of things, you would notice each year 0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:24.960 if you go to the Department of Homeland Security immigration statistics, 0:24:25.320 --> 0:24:29.280 that one million or so. It fluctuates between about eight 0:24:29.359 --> 0:24:32.000