WEBVTT - Vlad Zamfir on the Dangers of Unstoppable Software and What People Get Wrong About Blockchains 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:14.920 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:20.120 I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. So Tracy, obviously, 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:24.400 we've been doing a lot of crypto episodes lately, talking 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:28.400 about like bitcoin and its future, a lot about Defy lately. 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.400 But of course, like when all this got started, I remember, 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:33.800 like years ago, like people thought this was like very 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:39.239 like dangerous, sort of like provocative technology that you know, 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:41.320 people like, oh, are they gonna ban Bitcoin? Are they 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.279 going to ban all this stuff? Um, it feels like 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:46.320 I don't know. My opinion is that it feels like 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:48.360 a lot of that stuff is like now the dollar 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:50.000 signs are in there, a lot of that stuff has 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:53.520 been sort of like forgotten about, her sanitized away. I mean, 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:56.600 I think you still see hints of it when people 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.880 talk about the potential regulatory response on things like DeFi 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:03.280 and the idea of people create synthetic stocks that basically 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.280 bypass regulations, Like, there is a hint of it there. 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:11.720 But you're absolutely right that bitcoin and the associated technology 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:17.679 blockchain kind of started out as this crypto anarchist dream 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:22.160 that was very much about maybe not undermining or actually 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:25.280 I think you could say undermining or bypassing um existing 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:30.319 authorities and creating something that was sort of immutable and 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:34.760 also outside of their reach, right, like something that totally 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:38.600 has its own internal governance, that is permission list that 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:43.440 anyone can access, that is extremely um sort of durable 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:46.880 to an outside attack, very difficult to thwart. Like this 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:50.400 was sort of like the philosophical underpinnings of it. And 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:52.480 now you have people on Wall Street talking about like, oh, 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:56.080 is bitcoin player role in your retirement portfolio like gold? 0:01:56.280 --> 0:02:01.240 Or can we trade synthetics soybean futures, uh, the ethereum 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:03.640 and like all that is like theoretically kind of exciting, 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:06.280 but it doesn't feel very uh, it doesn't feel very 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:09.639 cypherpunk like at least like how we thought of all 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:13.240 this stuff in the early days. No. I think it's 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:16.480 like that classic thing about if the technology lives long enough, 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:19.560 it's eventually going to be co opted by Wall Street 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:22.799 and the thing that it probably sought to disrupt, right, 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.880 Like I'm thinking again about peer to peer lending and 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.480 how that was supposed to bypass traditional banks and then 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.520 eventually all the banks just got in on it. But yeah, 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:35.760 you're absolutely right, I think with all the excitement over 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:40.600 cryptocurrency prices as well as the potential for defy. We've 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:45.200 sort of drifted away from the original crypto anarchist or 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:49.120 cyber punk dream. You know that that raises all kinds 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:52.320 of questions because there's like this marriage happening between crypto 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.040 and Wall Street, And sometimes I think it's I kind 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:57.080 of going to be like oil and water, Like it 0:02:57.120 --> 0:02:59.440 looks good on paper, but can the too really interact? 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:01.799 And then of course, like the question is like, well 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:05.240 what happens, Like okay, like maybe they can be tamed 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:11.280 and be used to profit, but nonetheless, decentralized distributed uh 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:17.840 software databases still extremely powerful, and perhaps we forget that 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:23.239 some of the original motivation behind it at our peril. Well, 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:25.520 I'm going to push back on that last point, but 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:28.600 I do I do agree with you that, like there 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:32.160 is a tension between Wall Street getting in on technology, 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:35.800 which is basically all about sort of decentralizing control, right 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:40.200 and Wall Street slash finance slash banks are very much 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:44.200 about having I mean basically they're all about having control, 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:48.600 risk control systems in place. Um and so there's sort 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:52.720 of an open question about how useful a decentralized technology 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.920 is going to actually be with um to them exactly right. Well, 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:58.360 I think, after all, after all this talk of money 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.000 on recent episodes, it's good to go back to philosophy 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:03.760 a little bit and what these systems really are. And 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:08.400 we have the perfect guests. Are we doing blockchain not bitcoin? 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:11.840 Kind of kind of? I think that's maybe one way 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:14.480 to put it. I think we have like the perfect guys. 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:18.520 He's kind of a legendary figure in the crypto world. Um, 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:21.480 we're going to be speaking with laud Zamfeer. He's currently 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:25.960 an independent researcher for the Ethereum Foundation. He's actually been 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:29.919 with involved in the Ethereum project since before launched, actually 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:34.039 in April. Before that, he was a very early bitcoiner 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:37.040 and I think, you know, everyone else likes to talk 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:41.760 about price Vlaude rights, the sort of more philosophical pieces 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:46.080 about blockchains and this sort of the power of this software, 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:48.800 which he seems to recognize both the potential and the 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:52.560 risks for uh so extremely influential player in the space. 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:55.840 He also characterizes himself, in addition to being a philosopher 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.400 and a formal student of the law, an absurdist. So 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:00.919 we're gonna find out what that means. Vlaud, thank you 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:04.160 so much for joining us. Thanks Joe, I'm a longtime 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:07.039 fan of yours. Thank you, And I'm excited to be 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:10.000 here and you know, excited to talk about all these 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:14.320 pressing issues that we have today in this space. So 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:16.800 what do you kick us off? I mentioned your like 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.120 history a little bit. You're pretty early, You're much earlier 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:23.440 into bitcoin than most people. Then you're got involved with 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:28.200 the Ethereum Foundation before it actually officially launched as a 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.520 tradeable coin. What do you talk a little bit about 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:35.280 your background? What drew you to this space as an 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:39.920 area of research and interest. Well, I got into bitcoin 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:47.200 during the Cyprus Bilian sort of financial crisis during like um, 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:50.360 it was like one of those crises where like the 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:53.240 government there decided to like seize money from people's make 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:55.320 accounts in order to pay back that to the you 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.800 and and then like bitcoin kind of like I saw 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:00.800 a lot of headlines then because like people were using 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:03.560 it in order to evade this capture. And so for me, 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:05.360 like I got into bitcoin as like kind of like 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:10.400 revolutionary like financial technology that would like help save people 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:14.040 from like capital controls, inflation and like you know this 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:16.720 kind of like you know that like the global financial 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:20.520 system has been like co opted by like the law everywhere. 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:22.839 The bitcoin provided a kind of escape, and so I 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:25.440 was in the bitcoin for this kind of escapist you know, 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:29.520 cipher palm kind of like radical like we can escape 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:33.200 the central banking system kind of agenda, and like that 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:35.839 was exciting. Like I was excited you know, for like 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:38.120 the future of money at the time, and like I 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:40.120 was really like a bitcoin and thrown through in that way. 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:42.960 And then I got interested in ethereum um when I 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:44.880 kind of realized that like this you know, just like 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.320 the blockchain and not bitcoin kind of story where actually 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:50.200 like the technology like is useful way way outside the 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:53.840 scope Bitcoin, and it's something where we potentially use this 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:57.120 to like decentralize, you know, all sorts of things and 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:00.159 to disintermediate into like a kind of you know, do 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.760 things without going through gatekeepers, you know, a way outside 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:06.520 of just money and finance. And I was interested in 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:10.600 like decentralizing academia or like peer review through like content 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.280 curation and things like this, which are kind of like 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:17.920 still in somewhere very much part of ethereum um Um. 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:21.040 I definitely want to talk about some potential use cases 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:24.280 of the technology. But I also sort of want to 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:27.880 jump in with one major question um, which relates to 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:30.880 what you were just saying about the original vision for 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.040 bitcoin and why you got interested in it. But Joe 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:38.480 has been writing a lot about Wall Street embracing ethereum, 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:43.400 or being pilled, as he puts it, So I'm just curious, like, what, 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:47.320 what do you think what is it about ethereum that 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:53.200 has caused it to be embraced by the financial community, 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:56.680 like a community that a lot of people would say 0:07:56.760 --> 0:08:03.120 it should probably be bypassing all together. Yeah, and you know, 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:05.840 in some way you could say that it is, but 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:07.960 I would say, like this basically, like the theory is 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.520 very much not Bitcoin, and it was like set up 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:14.280 in some way to like fill some of the gaps 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:18.040 both like politically and technically that Bitcoin left open, and 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.720 so ethereum like you know, very much like contrast itself 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:24.680 to Bitcoin politically, legally, and also has this kind of 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:29.000 programmable layer where you can build a lot of applications 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:32.040 that are basically like not possible in Bitcoin, and those 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:34.680 include things like famously all this DeFi stuff that work 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:38.680 intro the conversation with that, like is in some way 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:43.360 like financial wizard dream today and so and so, there's 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:47.320 like in some way like there is interesting financial stuff 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:50.040 that happens on ethereum and ethereum and the way it's 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:52.960 like postured and positioned, it's it's not like the future 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:54.679 of money and the way Bitcoin is, Like it's hard 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.840 to understated how much not bitcoin etheroreum is because of 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.959 the kind of poor representation that theorem gets in the medium. 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:03.200 But like if you kind of like are in the scene, 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:05.920 like you deal very much like ethereum is not a Bitcoin, 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:08.560 and and I think that that the kind of it's 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:11.439 not being bigcoin and it posturing in a way that's 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:15.000 a much more general morphous you know, you can project 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:18.040 your own fantasies onto it. It's not like the future 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:21.080 of money in the same kind of like you know, 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:25.680 clear defined kind of way that bitcoin tries to be. 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:27.640 And so and so I think it has like a 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:32.680 niche and crypto currency and blockchain like it kind of 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:34.679 and it kind of like created and changed the way 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:37.400 that people even think about the space from like you know, 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:39.640 just thinking about like this the kind of money and 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:43.360 finance narratives actually to get much broader than that which 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:45.520 in some way, let's it actually provide a safe space 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:48.439 for some of the financial activity. But that's also very 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:50.679 questionable in terms of like how safe is it really 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:53.560 to like, you know, do these things without like New 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.720 York being super down with it? And so on? They 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:00.160 what you say, They're like, do these things without New 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:02.640 York being super down with It's something that I like 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:06.760 struggle with our question a lot because, like, on the 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:11.280 one hand, like blockchains are theoretically unsensible, and we could 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.480 get into how realistic that is, but like that is 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:17.480 sort of the story, like Okay, you you set the 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:21.600 software free, and you theoretically can't stop it. In theory, though, 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:26.120 one can imagine like, um, someone looking at a decentralized 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:29.079 lending protocol or something that certainly looks like a stock 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:31.480 market that runs on the theoreum and saying, you know, 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.719 regular saying this is illegal. This is like securities fraud 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:40.199 or selling of unregistered securities. Do you expect an inevitable 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:42.920 clash on that level? And do you think people within 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:48.760 the sort of crypto blockchain community are naive about thinking 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:51.920 that the law will just sort of not be an 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:55.000 impediment in the end, Well, I mean certainly to some extent. 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:57.120 But I think what they really think is they think 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:58.520 that they've thought this through and they see how it 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:00.040 will play out, and that they're going to win, and 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:01.600 that like, you know, the time is right for this 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:03.680 revolution and like they can do this without New York's 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:06.079 approval and like they're just gonna win, you know. But 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:09.000 basically like they have this like view actually like a 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:11.480 different view of like the legal reality. They're like they 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.360 don't they like I think they're ready to call New 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:16.320 York's bluff and to say like, hey, like you know, 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:19.760 you can't tell us what to do on the blockchain, 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.080 like this is not New York, you know. But then 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:24.040 of course you know you're gonna interact with a smart 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:26.960 contract and then like get into like a legal relationship 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:28.560 with someone in New York and then be suited and 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:30.480 then you're like going to the States one day, Like 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:33.280 you know, it's there's obviously ways in which you know 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:35.600 this is going to come to a head and where 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:37.680 people are going to get in trouble legally because of 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:41.439 the stuff and normally use it a place for conflict. 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:44.240 It's like a place where like it's guaranteed that there's 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:47.120 going to be conflict. There's no way to get around 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:50.280 that just because of the basic like let's say legal 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:55.800 political realities of of defy and of blockchain and blockchain governance. 0:11:56.640 --> 0:12:00.920 Can we talk a little bit more about the mutability 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:04.880 idea of blockchain? So Joe just touched on this, and 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:06.640 I think we have to talk about it because it's 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:10.839 sort of central to the use case of the technology, right, 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:14.000 this idea that you can build a code that can 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:19.240 basically exist and be the thing around which like multiple 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:21.880 players or two people can come to an agreement and 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:24.720 it means they don't have to have a middleman, and um, 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:26.640 you know, it allows for these sort of trust less 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:31.200 transactions and things like that. But I guess my question is, 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:35.559 like how immutable is blockchain actually, given that we've had 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:39.240 incidents of the chain or the code being corrupted, and 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:41.160 you know, I'm aware that as we're recording this, I 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:45.760 think it's like almost the five year anniversary of the 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.920 Dow attack when you had, you know, someone who basically 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:51.319 drained the Dow of all the ether it had collected 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:53.920 from the sale of its tokens. I think that happened 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:56.960 in like June five years ago something like that. So 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.679 I'm just wondering, like how safe, how rely doable is 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:03.880 the blockchain if we're going to be relying on it 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:07.319 um for all these different transactions. Yeah, I mean, well 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:09.520 there's a lot to impack there, but like these are 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:11.560 topics that are very near and dear to my heart. 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:13.520 And I would say firstly that like, Okay, I think 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.560 like the true like revolutionary potential blockchain isn't because of 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:18.240 the immutability thing. Like I don't think it's like, I 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:21.360 don't think immutability thing is really anything more than like 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:26.240 misinformation or disinformation about the nature of blockchain in order 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:29.040 to kind of manage the way that we have conflict 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:31.760 about blockchain tech, and so like that it's like a 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:35.280 tactical misinformation that happened from the start in order to 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:39.040 protect the blockchain from like what we're seeing as like 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:41.880 political legal adversaries that are too strong for us to 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:46.320 have like a independent, like legal way to manage dispuse 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:48.480 like the Instead, we kind of have this sperchine where 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:51.120 basically like we're supposed to not argue about or supposed 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:53.800 to not really change the protocol. And I think like 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:57.079 the real kind of like potential doesn't come really from 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:58.880 the immutability as much as from the fact that this 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:00.760 is a new kind of cyberspace. Is that like isn't 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:02.880 owned by like the guy who owns this one server. 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:06.280 Is kind of like a cyberspace that's in a different 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:09.960 kind of space that's like maybe more shared than as 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:13.160 possible in like today's like software as a service kind 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.200 of model. And so it's this in the ways in 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.439 which we can fight over and the ways we're gonna 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.840 have disputes over the governance of this space. I don't 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:23.880 think it's going to be limited by immutability, and I 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:25.680 think that's going to actually unlock a lot of value 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:27.440 in blockchain to kind of for us to get over 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:30.320 this idea that it's useful because it's immutable, and that 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:32.640 is trusted because it's immutable. I mean, it's like saying, oh, 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:34.640 you can trust me, I put myself in a straight jacket. 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:37.640 Like that's something someone who's not very trustworthy you would say, 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:39.920 you know that, someone who's like kind of like maybe 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:42.520 up to something else would say and and and and and. 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:44.560 In my opinion, you know, basically, like one way to 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:47.920 say it is that the norm of not disputing the 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:51.000 software was associated tightly with the software, so tightly that 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:52.880 you don't even learn about blockchain without learning about the 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:56.520 imutabality thing, and that has created this amazing international legal 0:14:56.600 --> 0:15:00.920 order that is basically extremely depu you know, like it's 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:04.080 like says the software is like not allowed to be changed, 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:07.400 and like it doesn't matter like who wants it or 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:09.480 like what is happening, Like you know, it's a really 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:14.680 kind of radical founding fallacy or founding trick or like 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:19.560 founding disinformation in like the cryptocurrency space that we talk 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:21.520 about the history of a little more. But all this 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:23.840 is to say, look, I don't think that it's immutability 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:27.000 as much as this question of like this new type 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:29.840 of space that we could that we have, you know, 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:32.080 because like you know, you can't shut down a server 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:34.600 or regulate a server in order to regulate a cyberspace 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.080 in the way that like it's kind of expected in 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:39.760 the cyberspace today, and so I think it creates new 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:42.200 political and legal ground for dispute and this and and 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:45.680 to Toshi and co. Kind of tried to front run 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:47.520 this by saying it's immutable and like we decided that 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:49.400 this is the protocol forever. But like that is kind 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.200 of bullshit. But that doesn't mean that blockchain is not useful. 0:15:52.600 --> 0:16:09.920 It's it's quite you know, quite the opposite again, So 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:12.960 let's talk about this idea a little bit more So. Obviously, 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:15.840 if I'm running an application that's like on Amazon Web 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:20.640 Services AWS, that's space that they own and I have 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:22.880 to play by their rules and Amazon has to play 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:26.760 by the government's rules, and that's pretty straightforward. If I'm 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:30.320 building an application on ethereum, it isn't, uh that obviously 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:32.800 creates new things. So what do you talk us through 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:35.360 like some of the implications of this if we're talking 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:38.040 about the real power of blockchain is not the immutability 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:40.240 per se, but the idea of like a new I 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.479 guess it's like a new shape of space that exists 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:46.120 that's sort of like outside of the conventional way we 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:49.080 think about like service as a software. What makes that 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.800 so revolutionary? And what do you see as the sort 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:55.400 of like what's the conflict model I guess within that 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:58.960 new role? Yeah, so today the dominant conflict model is 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.440 like misimutability thing that we kind of just talked about, 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:05.080 but it's certainly, you know, not really like sustainable or 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.600 defensible or like analytically, like you can kind of just 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:10.199 tell like not just from history, but like from like 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:12.840 the institutional arrangements that like Okay, it's like it's obviously 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:15.359 not like actually immutable. Like nothing is like really like 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.040 actually immutable. That's not like a real you know thing 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:20.760 for tech objects. You know, there's like always governance, and 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:23.040 so like the what this basically means that like the 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:25.680 model for conflicts for this new space is basically like 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:29.840 on determined and determined. Basically there's no way that like 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:32.960 anyone can say by like decree like what it's going 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:37.000 to be because basically no one has that legal competence 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.640 or authority and and it's kind of like it kind 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:41.560 of is forcing us to reckon with the fact that 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:45.560 law doesn't just exist inside national borders and that like 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:47.840 you know, we have to deal with the way we 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:51.520 have disputes over software that doesn't exist and can't just 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:53.240 be subject to this command and control line that you 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:56.040 mentioned earlier. Well, just to follow up on this a 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:58.200 little bit more, I mean, like what is I mean, 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:01.960 what makes it so powerful and revolutionary because like in theory, 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:05.320 like with bitcoin, like that is you know, it's really 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.760 hard to change it may not be strictly speaking permanently immutable, 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:11.840 but we know, like it is really hard to change. 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.800 But what is the power that gets unlocked in your 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:19.119 view by creating this new space, this new type of software. 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:23.639 It's like the power that's created by you know, having 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:28.720 somewhere that's outside of like the jurisdiction of your state authority, 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:30.639 which like today and for the most part it's like 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:34.080 charged with like maintaining legal order. And so you know, 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:36.480 it's basically like in some way, like you know, you 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:39.640 just aren't subject to the same disputes from the same 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:43.320 parties that you like normally would. So like you know, normally, 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:47.640 if you were to try to start unregistered securities exchange, 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:50.080 that you can really like just like you know, tell 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:52.040 you like no, you have to stop, and then like 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:55.920 you know, whereas like in crypto like defy today, it's 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.879 like not so simple basically because it's not clear exactly 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:04.240 like how that plays out, like you know, in the 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:06.600 terms of the like life span and that conflict. And 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:08.679 then if it doesn't play out right, you can actually 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:12.159 create a bigger problem through trying to to try and 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:14.639 shut it down, um and so and so there's kind 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:18.480 of like, um, the legal nondeterminism, like a legal uncertainty 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:22.000 that it makes it difficult to see you know, like 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.280 how is the unit swap going to be like regulated 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:26.520 in the US, for example, or like lots of other 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.320 questions you know where where where it just there's there's 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:31.440 no legal opinion in the world that like it's just right, 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:34.000 and it's like a matter of like the like you know, 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:37.399 real like legal nondeterminism. And so I think that like 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:43.639 creates a tremendous opportunity because it's like politically uncontested territory 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:48.080 or politically non uncontested, but politically contested is what I 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:51.119 mean territory, uh, and so and so that and so 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:53.840 it's a kind of whole place for like, you know, 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:57.520 not just people who like want to escape finance, but 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:00.200 also people who want to like maintain the same ifty 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:02.560 of their financial systems. But also not just in finance, 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:06.359 but you know because ultimately with like ethereum and like 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:08.879 blockchain not bitcoin, we kind of go away beyond just 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:14.920 just finance. So two questions here, and they're related to 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:16.680 the points you were just making. But can you maybe 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:21.520 elaborate on the use cases for blockchain technology? Um, you know, 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:24.879 we've been talking a lot about defy defy, UM, making 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:28.359 synthetic stocks, things like that. Um, But you mentioned a 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:32.200 few other potential use cases like curation earlier, and I'd 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:35.919 love to hear more about those. But secondly, how desirable 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:44.080 is it to basically bypass these sensitive or politically contested areas, 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:46.840 Like you know, a lot of people would argue that 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:51.840 regulation exists for a reason. Um, there's a reason why 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:57.359 finance in particular, UM is heavily regulated. So I guess 0:20:57.400 --> 0:20:59.600 maybe just elaborate a little bit more on on your 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:03.359 last point, like why would you want this? Why is 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:07.000 this a desirable thing to have? Yeah, so so let 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:09.680 me say that, Like, Okay, I think answer in a 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:13.280 reverse order. Um, So I don't think the escape is 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:16.879 like realistic or desirable, but I think what is. You know, 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:19.040 something we have to face is the fact that, like 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:21.440 we don't have a national or state authority that can 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:23.720 call the shots and so and so what that means 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:27.920 that we need to develop legal ability legal security without 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:30.920 having the ability to rely on like state enforced rules 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:33.840 and so. What that means is, you know, the nature 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:36.359 of law today as we understand it needs to kind 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:38.239 of like or let me take a step back, Like 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:43.040 the most powerful legal forms today aren't equipped to deal 0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:45.240 with this particular conflict, and so it creates a trendous 0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:49.879 opportunity to for us to find ways to manage our 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:53.320 conflicts in a in a in a scope where that 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:57.880 doesn't easily lend itself to the like existing like most 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:01.080 powerful legal forms and so and so that is like 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:05.000 a tremendous opportunity. But I don't think of it as 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:08.080 escaping law. I think if it is discovering law actually 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:10.720 and discovering you know, and and and and being kind 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:13.800 of like you know, secure in our conflicts without having 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:17.280 this state that can enforce rules and that so that 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:20.000 we can mediate our our experience of law through like 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:22.680 the state. Because because no one wants to create like 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:25.520 a global crypto law state that will enforce the rules 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:28.200 on crypto you know, it's like there's like a push 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:30.920 against that kind of like global state in the law 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:33.879 and just in like you know, just like basic common 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:35.520 sense of like how is this going to be abused 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:38.879 and corrupted? But thankfully that we have a tremendous legal 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:42.159 history in the world, and we have like tremendous amount 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:44.040 of legal culture and it's not doesn't just boil down 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:48.159 to state rules, and so we have an opportunity to 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:52.760 have important legal disputes in a way that is in 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:55.919 some way not according to the normal status quo. And 0:22:55.960 --> 0:23:00.240 that is trendously interesting. However, as you say, like the 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:06.119 idea of escaping law is fallacious and dangerous and facilitates 0:23:06.160 --> 0:23:09.680 a lot of bad stuff, and and certainly I don't 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:13.639 advocate legal escapism. I like I would love to you know, 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:16.800 fight it, in particular in the context of crypto, because 0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:19.120 like people have this idea that just because it's not 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:23.160 in this jurisdiction of a state, that that there's no law, 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:27.680 and that's just incredibly untrue on like a deep, deep 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:30.320 analytical basis, and it keep deep in a political way 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:33.360 where like it's impossible to escape the law, like it's 0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:35.840 just not that's like not a thing. And so it's 0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:38.959 just like it's just that like the particular you know, 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:43.320 state enforced rules legal form that people are like lazily 0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:46.680 expect to like always work, you know, but even though 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:50.200 like you know, it like obviously like doesn't always doesn't work. 0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:51.640 And so then they and then so then they get 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:54.879 themselves crazy thinking like I can escape, you know, like 0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:57.760 the law, but like that's not that's not reality, Like 0:23:57.760 --> 0:23:59.840 I mean, you know, the reality is that like it 0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:02.640 doesn't matter where you go, like you bring the law 0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:05.320 with you, and other people will bring a law to you. Um. 0:24:05.359 --> 0:24:07.840 So I think it just forces us to re evaluate 0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:12.080 as opposed to letting us escape, and that kind of 0:24:12.119 --> 0:24:14.960 like new situation where we have like where we have 0:24:15.040 --> 0:24:17.080 to deal with our conflicts in a new way. Um. 0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:20.240 It's super interesting. Although unfortunately today is dominated by this 0:24:20.280 --> 0:24:23.119 a mutability norm, which basically is kind of having people 0:24:23.160 --> 0:24:25.199 pretend like, oh, they can't interfere with the software, like 0:24:25.240 --> 0:24:27.920 the software is just like fully autonomous, which I think 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:30.560 is crazy talk because like you know, nothing is above 0:24:30.600 --> 0:24:32.800 the law, like nothing is in subject to dispute. I mean, 0:24:32.840 --> 0:24:35.240 like there's no way in which like software will ever 0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:38.120 be above the law. And so it's only a matter 0:24:38.160 --> 0:24:41.080 of time before mutability becomes kind of like sidelined and 0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:43.960 minimize and we have to find another way to be 0:24:44.040 --> 0:24:47.480 secure in our conflicts around blockchain and cryptom Okay, so 0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:49.240 you say, like it's kind of crazy talk to the 0:24:49.280 --> 0:24:52.159 immutability norm, but it is also true that if New 0:24:52.240 --> 0:24:56.600 York regulators were like unite swap is illegal now there 0:24:56.680 --> 0:25:00.359 they can't. In the past that they could there was 0:25:00.440 --> 0:25:04.439 a entity offering some sort of like exchange that they 0:25:04.440 --> 0:25:06.800 didn't want. Like I'm thinking, like, okay, like when there 0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:09.440 used to be betting, you know, more betting markets that 0:25:09.480 --> 0:25:12.080 were available in the United States on centralized by run 0:25:12.119 --> 0:25:15.639 by centralized companies or gambling or whatever, and a regulator 0:25:15.640 --> 0:25:18.639 could say this is illegal now and it would go 0:25:18.680 --> 0:25:20.879 away and that would be it. But if a regulator 0:25:20.960 --> 0:25:23.760 said in theory where you can't do you to swap 0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:28.320 anymore or something like that, it obviously isn't that isn't easy. 0:25:28.400 --> 0:25:30.639 Maybe you know, it's not above the law, and maybe 0:25:30.880 --> 0:25:34.240 immutability is unrealistic. But it's obviously a very different interaction 0:25:34.760 --> 0:25:36.840 than it was before when it was like say the 0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:39.800 regulators kicking out online poker site. So in your in 0:25:39.840 --> 0:25:43.159 your vision, how does this sort of like traditional notion 0:25:43.200 --> 0:25:47.240 of law enforcement and regulation interact with this new with 0:25:47.359 --> 0:25:50.119 this new uh, with this new model. Yeah, And I 0:25:50.119 --> 0:25:52.240 mean that's a that's a challenging question. And basically, like 0:25:52.280 --> 0:25:54.199 the easy thing to say is okay, well, you know 0:25:54.280 --> 0:25:57.000 they get to I mean, they still have like all 0:25:57.040 --> 0:26:01.640 of their like local and also internet legal means, and 0:26:01.720 --> 0:26:04.080 they still have the ability to issue sanctions and to 0:26:04.720 --> 0:26:07.240 say like oh no, like that's criminal, Like oh no, 0:26:07.359 --> 0:26:10.560 like you know, don't send money to this address because 0:26:10.600 --> 0:26:12.760 like you know, or like don't buy like this token 0:26:12.800 --> 0:26:15.320 because like and you're just like supporting terrorists, like you know. 0:26:15.480 --> 0:26:18.520 They have this authority to do these things, and those 0:26:18.600 --> 0:26:21.120 will be and there will be like real legal consequences 0:26:21.160 --> 0:26:25.679 for people who find themselves in the you know, in 0:26:25.800 --> 0:26:28.120 like let's say, like the scope of US law, which 0:26:28.160 --> 0:26:30.360 is fast and so it's not like they don't have 0:26:30.920 --> 0:26:35.080 means of regulating many persons that are in the law 0:26:35.160 --> 0:26:37.920 who would be maybe using these systems, And so I 0:26:37.960 --> 0:26:40.359 don't want to minimize that because there's a lot there, 0:26:40.760 --> 0:26:42.479 But I also want to say that like you know, 0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:47.399 because of yes, I mutability, but more more generally, because 0:26:47.440 --> 0:26:51.600 of the these protocols need to be used everywhere, you know, 0:26:51.800 --> 0:26:53.520 or not everywhere. But we could like if if they 0:26:53.560 --> 0:26:55.760 were to like say, mandated change to the theory and 0:26:55.800 --> 0:26:58.480 protocol in order to let them shut down youn swap, 0:26:58.800 --> 0:27:01.160 like that would become like theory in USA or something, 0:27:01.160 --> 0:27:03.560 and it wouldn't be the same, right, so you need 0:27:03.600 --> 0:27:05.040 to kind of like there needs to be like a 0:27:05.040 --> 0:27:08.160 different level of kind of legitimacy and coordination and opt 0:27:08.240 --> 0:27:12.320 in on a global basis for a dispute brought by 0:27:12.680 --> 0:27:15.520 you know, someone to to lead to this change and 0:27:15.520 --> 0:27:18.680 so and so there's kind of like this sort of 0:27:18.720 --> 0:27:22.199 like nebulous culture that is going to like you know, 0:27:22.280 --> 0:27:25.080 like judge the legitimacy of this legal order and then 0:27:25.160 --> 0:27:28.080 say whether like you know like like budge for it, 0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:30.879 and and and in some way immutability already says no, 0:27:31.400 --> 0:27:33.520 like very much like no to all of it, and 0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:35.919 so like because like that's like the status quote today, 0:27:35.960 --> 0:27:40.160 it's quite hard to imagine. However, you know, in the future, 0:27:40.760 --> 0:27:43.560 we're gonna have like a basically you know, let's say, 0:27:44.720 --> 0:27:47.520 you know, mediums are having these disputes. It's not going 0:27:47.600 --> 0:27:49.600 to be like, you know, we just like accept state 0:27:49.600 --> 0:27:51.520 authority to like tell us what to do. I mean, 0:27:51.560 --> 0:27:54.800 because that's like not the ethos at all, but where 0:27:54.800 --> 0:27:58.520 we like you know, don't want to like do like 0:27:58.920 --> 0:28:01.320 and allow like all of the worst behavior. Like you know, 0:28:01.320 --> 0:28:02.800 if you want to have like your cake and need 0:28:02.800 --> 0:28:04.879 it too, you know there there you basically need to 0:28:04.880 --> 0:28:07.159 be secure about your ability to manage these conflicts and 0:28:07.160 --> 0:28:09.359 to say like you're you have a right to have 0:28:09.440 --> 0:28:12.160 your sanctions and we have the right to have our sanctions, 0:28:12.280 --> 0:28:14.119 and like you know, we're not even like a single 0:28:14.200 --> 0:28:16.520 body politic and so and so, like we're not gonna 0:28:16.560 --> 0:28:19.199 understand have like official like here is like you know, 0:28:19.280 --> 0:28:21.840 like the etheroryum, like the sanctions that like the THEORYM 0:28:21.840 --> 0:28:25.040 will respect or anything like that. But through the course 0:28:25.520 --> 0:28:28.639 of disputes and through the course of you know, the 0:28:28.720 --> 0:28:31.280 various like events that are going to happen in crypto, 0:28:31.800 --> 0:28:35.359 you know these things are going to change basically, and 0:28:35.920 --> 0:28:39.240 you know it's up to kind of like people with 0:28:40.200 --> 0:28:43.240 right legal minds to kind of try to like front 0:28:43.280 --> 0:28:45.080 run all these situations and figure out how we can 0:28:45.120 --> 0:28:48.880 prevent some of these very bad outcomes. So, I mean, 0:28:48.960 --> 0:28:51.600 just on that note, like what does this actually mean 0:28:51.680 --> 0:28:54.800 for society? And I know this is something that you 0:28:55.040 --> 0:28:58.600 Um and Vitalic have touched upon before. You know, this 0:28:58.640 --> 0:29:02.280 idea that society is basic built on contracts and what 0:29:02.320 --> 0:29:06.600 we're talking about is a new type of contract technology 0:29:06.840 --> 0:29:11.960 or a new space um for agreeing contracts in and 0:29:12.160 --> 0:29:15.560 you know, potentially I take your point earlier, but potentially 0:29:15.600 --> 0:29:20.640 contracts that can sort of like outlive or exist beyond 0:29:20.680 --> 0:29:26.360 the reach of um I guess, uh, coordinated legal systems. 0:29:26.400 --> 0:29:28.840 Maybe that's one way of putting it, Like what does 0:29:28.880 --> 0:29:32.760 this mean for society as a whole? Well, I mean, 0:29:33.000 --> 0:29:35.440 you know, that's an excellent question that I don't think 0:29:35.440 --> 0:29:38.400 it has like a super simple answer other than like, 0:29:38.480 --> 0:29:40.800 you know, we need to reckon with the fact that 0:29:40.840 --> 0:29:43.160 we have this kind of space now that we need 0:29:43.200 --> 0:29:46.560 to govern and to understand like how we have conflict 0:29:46.600 --> 0:29:49.240 over and around the kind of like first thing to 0:29:49.280 --> 0:29:51.080 note them that I have to mention it's like, okay, well, 0:29:51.080 --> 0:29:54.640 smart contracts aren't actually contracts, like like legal contracts like 0:29:54.680 --> 0:29:57.040 exist in the law, like smart contracts are like in 0:29:57.080 --> 0:30:00.800 the ether, inpersual machine, like in contract a terms like 0:30:01.240 --> 0:30:05.000 smart contracts and more about execution than actually like contracting, 0:30:05.320 --> 0:30:07.920 and so like you know, they're not really contracts. They're 0:30:07.920 --> 0:30:09.880 more like something you might use when you're trying to 0:30:09.920 --> 0:30:13.200 avoid getting into a contract, and then you might accidentally 0:30:13.200 --> 0:30:15.960 get into a contract in some cases. But in terms 0:30:15.960 --> 0:30:18.600 of contract law, like I mean, you can't expect too 0:30:18.680 --> 0:30:21.360 much change. I mean, contract law is like you know, 0:30:21.480 --> 0:30:24.520 like extremely robust, and like, you know, we've been throw 0:30:24.560 --> 0:30:27.320 a lot in contract law and it's not like you know, 0:30:27.440 --> 0:30:30.080 like smart contracts are like a new paradigm and contract 0:30:30.120 --> 0:30:33.160 law really, although they may be a way to, um, 0:30:33.240 --> 0:30:37.560 let's say, execute some terms of a contract in some cases, 0:30:37.640 --> 0:30:40.440 like for the most part, smart contracts are not legal contracts. 0:30:40.480 --> 0:30:42.600 And it's it's kind of in a misnomer that's been 0:30:43.400 --> 0:30:47.440 both tactical and extremely effective, but also is a leads 0:30:47.520 --> 0:30:51.200 to this kind of idea that like these are contracts 0:30:51.200 --> 0:30:54.239 when they're like not really. And I think that like 0:30:55.040 --> 0:30:58.360 the question of like how do blockchains and cryptocurrency let 0:30:58.440 --> 0:31:00.480 us organize, you know, how the impact the way that 0:31:00.520 --> 0:31:04.520 we organize aren't isn't going to be like a necessarily 0:31:04.600 --> 0:31:07.960 a contract law reality as much as it's going to 0:31:08.000 --> 0:31:11.760 be something like in terms of you know, the new 0:31:11.880 --> 0:31:16.360 spaces and the new intersections of different cultures and and 0:31:16.360 --> 0:31:18.960 and economies and and stuff that that are going to 0:31:19.000 --> 0:31:21.960 be facilitated in these spaces. But but the question of what, 0:31:22.120 --> 0:31:26.080 like how will blockchains effect and influence like the way 0:31:26.120 --> 0:31:29.400 we organize the society are you know, deep and uncertain, 0:31:29.760 --> 0:31:31.959 and there is an extent to which like the technology 0:31:32.000 --> 0:31:37.280 really is you know, better than traditional consistuts protocols, and 0:31:37.520 --> 0:31:39.040 so like there is a way where like, okay, we 0:31:39.040 --> 0:31:41.160 know it will help us in some computer systems in 0:31:41.200 --> 0:31:44.480 like a rather clear way. But in terms of like 0:31:44.480 --> 0:31:47.920 like you know, the promise of like social revolution or 0:31:47.960 --> 0:31:50.400 like a social change in the order, or like a 0:31:50.480 --> 0:31:53.400 social like you know, like new way like escape or 0:31:53.480 --> 0:31:55.600 things like this, like those are all like deep leading 0:31:55.600 --> 0:31:57.840 out of termistic and like very unclear. Like it could 0:31:57.880 --> 0:32:00.720 just be that like you know, this inspires like the 0:32:00.800 --> 0:32:04.280 worst kind of global totalitarianism in like a crackdown, as 0:32:04.320 --> 0:32:06.320 much as it could be that like you know, we're 0:32:06.360 --> 0:32:08.720 able to use it responsibly in a way where we 0:32:08.760 --> 0:32:11.680 can you know, justify the maintenance of our freedoms in 0:32:11.720 --> 0:32:14.560 the law. How could this go bad? I mean we 0:32:14.600 --> 0:32:17.080 were talking earlier before the show, and you you talk 0:32:17.080 --> 0:32:20.840 about this sort of like the danger of unstoppable software. 0:32:21.080 --> 0:32:23.800 What are some of the risks if people don't think 0:32:23.840 --> 0:32:25.959 about this right or if a sort of like if 0:32:26.000 --> 0:32:30.360 a community can't sufficiently self govern if there does, if 0:32:30.560 --> 0:32:33.480 if people fail to achieve some sort of like norms 0:32:34.040 --> 0:32:37.760 about say cutting off some of the most egregious Uh, 0:32:37.840 --> 0:32:40.600 patterns of behavior that can be done on a blockchain, 0:32:40.680 --> 0:32:42.720 Like what are some of the risks that people should 0:32:42.720 --> 0:32:45.680 be thinking about. I don't necessarily want to give people ideas, 0:32:45.760 --> 0:32:47.880 but I will say that, like whatever you have anything 0:32:47.920 --> 0:32:49.920 in the law that isn't subject dispute, you could like 0:32:49.960 --> 0:32:52.320 imagine it being part of like some Rube Goldberg machine 0:32:52.400 --> 0:32:54.520 that like does some kind of like you know, very 0:32:54.600 --> 0:32:57.880 unlawful thing in the end. So so so you can 0:32:58.120 --> 0:33:00.640 you can imagine that, like you know, each of these 0:33:00.720 --> 0:33:06.040 indisputable components can together come together to make things possible, 0:33:06.840 --> 0:33:09.440 like you know, the sharp increase in ransomware, and like 0:33:09.520 --> 0:33:12.000 you know, for for one example, that's like kind of 0:33:12.040 --> 0:33:14.760 like everyone knows about and it won't give anyone ideas 0:33:14.800 --> 0:33:16.640 for me to talk about, Like like ransomware is a 0:33:16.640 --> 0:33:19.600 good is a good example of something where you know 0:33:19.640 --> 0:33:22.479 it's it just makes the business of ransom so much 0:33:22.520 --> 0:33:26.280 easier to use cryptocurrency. And and so you know that 0:33:26.520 --> 0:33:30.840 is like some like quite obvious you know, unlawful bad 0:33:31.240 --> 0:33:34.320 some of different levels conduct that is basically being facilitated here. 0:33:34.520 --> 0:33:37.280 And then we currently don't have the means to really 0:33:37.280 --> 0:33:40.040 stop or let me rephrase, we don't have the will 0:33:40.720 --> 0:33:45.080 or the legal strategy like legal capacity to stop. Is 0:33:45.120 --> 0:33:50.160 that something in your view that the cryptocurrency or say 0:33:50.200 --> 0:33:53.800 people within say the Ethereum network, or I guess you 0:33:53.840 --> 0:33:57.360 know some of these are different networks, Bitcoin, narrow, et cetera. 0:33:58.360 --> 0:34:02.760 These things that people who are working on governance in 0:34:02.920 --> 0:34:07.400 these areas should be more actively thinking about. Absolutely, uh, 0:34:07.400 --> 0:34:10.040 and I think you know, um people need to be 0:34:10.160 --> 0:34:14.120 much more secure in their ability to handle conflicts in 0:34:14.160 --> 0:34:17.359 cryptome Um today. They're you know, they have these kind 0:34:17.400 --> 0:34:21.040 of like aggressive postures because like they don't believe that 0:34:21.080 --> 0:34:23.480 they can handle these disputes. They think that if you 0:34:23.640 --> 0:34:27.160 like delete some coins from some ransomware attack, then like 0:34:27.239 --> 0:34:30.279 that opens the floodgates to like the government deleting your 0:34:30.320 --> 0:34:32.640 coins because you didn't pay taxes or whatever. You know, 0:34:32.960 --> 0:34:37.360 you can imagine people have like fears about all the 0:34:37.360 --> 0:34:39.320 things that could happen if we started to do anything, 0:34:39.719 --> 0:34:41.960 and and and and people like don't have like the 0:34:42.000 --> 0:34:45.840 security to like say, look, you know, we can judge 0:34:46.239 --> 0:34:48.880 these things, and we don't need to say, look, we 0:34:48.880 --> 0:34:51.120 don't need to delegate to like a system that decides 0:34:51.160 --> 0:34:53.279 and therefore we captured by the system, like we can 0:34:53.320 --> 0:34:56.040 have like the legal security and like the responsibility for 0:34:56.160 --> 0:34:58.399 legal judgments in order to you know, have our cake, 0:34:58.440 --> 0:35:01.800 and needed to to like not out un checked state authority, 0:35:01.960 --> 0:35:05.359 but also to not allow unchecked scammers. Since you brought 0:35:05.440 --> 0:35:08.319 up scamming and ransomware, I'm wondering if we can just 0:35:08.360 --> 0:35:11.719 go back to that question from earlier about use cases 0:35:12.080 --> 0:35:15.799 for blockchain, Yeah, because I like what gets you excited 0:35:15.920 --> 0:35:20.879 about potential use cases for the tech? I'm I'm really 0:35:20.880 --> 0:35:24.360 excited about you know, are this like opportunity that we 0:35:24.480 --> 0:35:28.160 have to both both because of the improvement in the technology, 0:35:28.160 --> 0:35:31.200 but also because of this crazy legal trick and this 0:35:31.360 --> 0:35:34.399 crazy legal reality that like crypto exist. And I think, 0:35:34.600 --> 0:35:36.719 you know, the thing that's like most exciting to me 0:35:36.800 --> 0:35:41.960 is like this multidisciplinary mix of like this crazy kind 0:35:41.960 --> 0:35:44.560 of institution which like you know, sometimes passes itself off 0:35:44.600 --> 0:35:49.520 as tech, but it's really of a very interesting, dynamic, multifaceted, 0:35:49.800 --> 0:35:53.600 like ontologically very complex type of institution. And I think 0:35:53.640 --> 0:35:57.719 that like, you know, these although primitive today, stand to 0:35:57.840 --> 0:36:04.719 become like complex, dynamic, very interesting institutions that get to 0:36:05.640 --> 0:36:08.320 do a lot for us that like currently we don't 0:36:08.360 --> 0:36:11.239 have in cyberspace. Because like in cyberspace today, we have 0:36:11.280 --> 0:36:13.279 basically a situation where we have a kind of a 0:36:13.360 --> 0:36:16.399 neo feudalism where like our feudal lords who like own 0:36:16.480 --> 0:36:19.759 the big computers like own us. And I'm like not 0:36:19.880 --> 0:36:22.000 exaggerating by a lot, And so I think there's like 0:36:22.520 --> 0:36:27.640 a state of crisis in cyberspace that crypto helps to 0:36:28.080 --> 0:36:30.480 respond to, you know, as much as also there's like 0:36:30.480 --> 0:36:34.120 a state of crisis in like global governance and global 0:36:34.200 --> 0:36:36.600 law and like blockchain crypto kind of like sits in 0:36:36.640 --> 0:36:41.920 that space and can help us provide new realities, new paradigms, 0:36:41.960 --> 0:36:45.240 new places where we can try again and like hopefully 0:36:45.280 --> 0:36:48.600 not fail this time to have like you know, good 0:36:48.640 --> 0:36:52.080 governance and to have like you know, institutions that are 0:36:52.760 --> 0:36:55.080 part of a kind of society that we want to 0:36:55.080 --> 0:36:56.319 live in. So I think I think it's like you know, 0:36:56.440 --> 0:36:58.600 very much like very much political, and very much in 0:36:58.680 --> 0:37:03.640 reaction to some of the prevailing political reality. Today. We're 0:37:03.640 --> 0:37:07.880 basically like you know, power is concentrated and in a 0:37:07.880 --> 0:37:13.319 way where perhaps um with this decentralized computer or you 0:37:13.360 --> 0:37:15.520 know kind of like you know, like the servers that 0:37:15.560 --> 0:37:19.400 are like you know, I'm no longer owned the cyberspace, Um, 0:37:19.400 --> 0:37:24.320 we can maybe create and have a new balance of powers, 0:37:24.320 --> 0:37:27.279 like like like more balance of powers, you know, more 0:37:27.400 --> 0:37:30.160 rule of law as opposed to just you know, having 0:37:30.200 --> 0:37:32.840 like the feudal lords or like the legislatures or the 0:37:32.880 --> 0:37:36.879 states kind of like act lawless and and like lord 0:37:36.920 --> 0:37:39.359 over everyone as if like you know, they own the law. 0:37:59.200 --> 0:38:03.279 Do you envision in like a future theoretically in which 0:38:03.320 --> 0:38:07.560 sort of like everything that we do online, whether it's 0:38:07.600 --> 0:38:13.200 something that resembles traditional social networking sharing sharing stories and 0:38:13.320 --> 0:38:17.359 videos and photos of our friends communication, that it could 0:38:17.360 --> 0:38:20.359 all essentially be done in this sort of like new 0:38:20.920 --> 0:38:24.160 decentralized sort of like crypto based manner. Like is that 0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:27.200 like a future that seems realistic too? Um, Well, there's 0:38:27.239 --> 0:38:31.400 a number of like technical like legal, economic, you know, 0:38:31.400 --> 0:38:33.360 there's lots of lots of barriers, and there's like a 0:38:33.600 --> 0:38:37.160 you know, just because we have like new primitive forms 0:38:37.200 --> 0:38:40.520 in this direction and like way more possibilities and before, 0:38:41.080 --> 0:38:43.000 doesn't mean that like we're there are yet. I mean, 0:38:43.040 --> 0:38:47.880 like privacy in cryptocurrency is very bad, and there's a 0:38:47.920 --> 0:38:51.400 lot of basic norms around how we have disputes that 0:38:51.600 --> 0:38:56.000 aren't really settled in a way that's like secure or sustainable. 0:38:56.160 --> 0:38:59.479 There's a lot of reasons why you know, we can't 0:38:59.560 --> 0:39:01.440 and we wouldn't, and they would be like a very 0:39:01.440 --> 0:39:04.040 bad idea for us to try to like do everything 0:39:04.400 --> 0:39:09.399 with cryptosystems. That said, you know, it's not clear what 0:39:09.440 --> 0:39:14.439 the technical, legal, economic, etcetera. Limits are, and so that's 0:39:14.440 --> 0:39:18.000 something that's like kind of also subject to ongoing kind 0:39:18.040 --> 0:39:23.160 of discovery, negotiation and so on. It's hard to imagine 0:39:23.160 --> 0:39:26.719 how that would look safe. It's easier to imagine why 0:39:26.760 --> 0:39:30.200 people would do it despite it not being safe. And 0:39:30.239 --> 0:39:32.600 so like I'm you know, concerned because like you know, 0:39:32.640 --> 0:39:36.120 of the like lack of basic infrastructure that's like required 0:39:36.160 --> 0:39:39.920 for this to be safe. However, the opportunities there, the 0:39:41.560 --> 0:39:44.399 stakes are, they're like the contention is there, like people 0:39:44.440 --> 0:39:46.880 are ready to fight over these issues and and and 0:39:46.880 --> 0:39:49.440 and and kind of see what happens. Although you know, 0:39:49.520 --> 0:39:51.240 we are still in a position where we could easily 0:39:51.280 --> 0:39:54.960 see some really bad outcomes when like for example, you know, 0:39:55.040 --> 0:39:59.560 like the unsoppable software, the like global cyber state, or 0:39:59.600 --> 0:40:02.120 like the uh, you know, the feudalists just controlling everything. 0:40:02.320 --> 0:40:04.040 Like there's a lot of bad outcomes that are kind 0:40:04.080 --> 0:40:07.040 of in the cake today that like could easily get 0:40:07.080 --> 0:40:10.279 baked you know, into like our reality, but it's not 0:40:10.680 --> 0:40:13.200 it's still like not said in stone yet, it's not 0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:16.279 clear like you know, these these outcomes will happen, you know, 0:40:16.320 --> 0:40:19.960 I'm optimistic that we can find better outcomes than than 0:40:20.000 --> 0:40:23.560 any of these kind of like established ones. I wanted 0:40:23.600 --> 0:40:26.160 to go back to the beginning of this discussion, when 0:40:26.160 --> 0:40:29.600 we were talking about what attracted you into bitcoin in 0:40:29.600 --> 0:40:32.000 the first place, and then how you got interested in 0:40:32.080 --> 0:40:35.920 the theory um um. And it's a slightly weird I guess, 0:40:35.960 --> 0:40:41.839 like cultural or values question, but some people would describe 0:40:42.200 --> 0:40:47.600 the bitcoin community today as being I guess toxic is 0:40:48.080 --> 0:40:52.800 one word, or like openly hostile to outsiders and hostile 0:40:52.960 --> 0:40:57.960 to alternate visions of crypto. And so I'm just wondering, 0:40:58.000 --> 0:41:01.880 as someone who sits on the opposite side of bitcoin now, um, 0:41:01.960 --> 0:41:05.319 and it's heavily involved in ethereum, like, how would you 0:41:05.440 --> 0:41:13.600 characterize the cultural differences between Bitcoin versus ethereum. Yeah, I 0:41:13.600 --> 0:41:16.000 mean I think, um, you know, Bitcoin has like a 0:41:16.040 --> 0:41:20.440 relatively defined culture, whereas like ethereums culture is still kind 0:41:20.480 --> 0:41:24.080 of like amorphous and people you know, have different like 0:41:24.200 --> 0:41:28.600 sustained different very different politics and views within ethereum. So 0:41:28.640 --> 0:41:30.759 ethereum kind of is like much more diverse and in 0:41:30.800 --> 0:41:34.920 some way less toxic than big coin because like the 0:41:34.920 --> 0:41:37.920 the like incentive to like get everyone out who doesn't 0:41:37.920 --> 0:41:40.600 toe the party line, like isn't really like there as 0:41:40.680 --> 0:41:44.000 much in ethereum. And so what happens is basically like 0:41:44.320 --> 0:41:47.640 ethereum is like supports much more diversity, you know, and 0:41:47.640 --> 0:41:51.160 an ethereum by by virtue of like being more amorphous, 0:41:51.239 --> 0:41:53.640 by about like being about kind of everything instead of 0:41:53.640 --> 0:41:58.200 just being about money, it kind of has um you know, 0:41:58.360 --> 0:42:00.759 support from much more efficients. And but that also means 0:42:00.760 --> 0:42:04.360 that like there are like struggles and factions and people 0:42:04.480 --> 0:42:06.920 like you know, like having fights over like what is 0:42:06.920 --> 0:42:09.360 ethereum in a way that doesn't really happen in bitcoin 0:42:09.400 --> 0:42:11.800 and bitcoin they're kind of just like you know, twenty 0:42:11.840 --> 0:42:14.600 one million, twenty one million bitcoins and if you don't agree, 0:42:14.960 --> 0:42:17.120 get out, and if you don't like one magna blocks 0:42:17.160 --> 0:42:18.640 like get out, and like you know, they have this 0:42:18.719 --> 0:42:21.239 kind of a toxicity, which which is which is kind 0:42:21.280 --> 0:42:23.160 of like um. I like to describe it as a 0:42:23.239 --> 0:42:27.600 channel authentication UH strategy where basically it makes it so 0:42:27.640 --> 0:42:30.319 that like you, if you don't, if you're not like 0:42:30.360 --> 0:42:32.719 one of them, like you can't really tolerate to be there. 0:42:33.000 --> 0:42:34.640 And so you can kind of just like bird virtue 0:42:34.680 --> 0:42:37.120 of being in those channels, like you're kind of authenticated, 0:42:37.120 --> 0:42:39.160 and it makes it a safe space for them, and 0:42:39.440 --> 0:42:42.560 I think it also it also helps them reinforce this immutability. 0:42:42.560 --> 0:42:44.799 And I'm like earlier Joe mentioned like, oh, it would 0:42:44.800 --> 0:42:47.160 be very hard to change bitcoin, and the reason is 0:42:47.160 --> 0:42:50.880 because like you have all these uh toxic bitcoiners who 0:42:50.960 --> 0:42:54.360 will basically like be horrible to you if you suggest 0:42:54.760 --> 0:42:56.880 that we don't need to do this immutability thing. And 0:42:57.080 --> 0:42:59.040 not that it's like hard to change the software, it's 0:42:59.040 --> 0:43:01.239 just like hard to get through the bitcoiners who like 0:43:01.320 --> 0:43:03.919 have this kind of like pseudo cult or like real 0:43:04.000 --> 0:43:07.560 cult or pseudo religion around around Bitcoin. I mean, I 0:43:07.560 --> 0:43:10.239 guess the question is is, like we've all interacted with that, 0:43:10.400 --> 0:43:13.360 and we sort of know that phenomenon, But could it 0:43:13.400 --> 0:43:16.480 be that that's a good sort of like survival strategy, 0:43:16.520 --> 0:43:20.360 a good evolutionary strategy. It's like, obviously Ethereum seems to 0:43:20.360 --> 0:43:23.480 be more open to debate and governance questions seem to 0:43:23.520 --> 0:43:26.000 be more up in the air and so forth. But 0:43:26.200 --> 0:43:28.640 you know, if you're trying to like bootstrap a new 0:43:28.680 --> 0:43:32.319 money into existence in a way that bitcoin is trying 0:43:32.360 --> 0:43:36.080 to do, does it make sense perhaps to create this 0:43:36.200 --> 0:43:38.560 cult environment so that you go through so that even 0:43:38.680 --> 0:43:43.040 during the lean times, nobody is threatned. Nobody, nobody who's 0:43:43.080 --> 0:43:46.240 involved wants to pivot or no change. Like adversity comes 0:43:46.640 --> 0:43:48.520 and it's like, well, some people might be tempted to 0:43:48.600 --> 0:43:53.680 change the project, but you know, bitcoiners by shedding themselves 0:43:53.719 --> 0:43:55.719 essentially of people who would be even tempted to think 0:43:55.760 --> 0:43:58.960 about changing the software or changing the project, Like, does 0:43:59.040 --> 0:44:03.400 that create a certain amount of resilience that can survive 0:44:03.640 --> 0:44:06.160 attacks or periods where the price is low and so forth. 0:44:07.080 --> 0:44:09.200 Kind of, but it also lends itself to be coming 0:44:09.280 --> 0:44:11.879 like obsolete or like a relic or like a kind 0:44:11.880 --> 0:44:15.480 of quaint vintage item or something. You know, it's kind 0:44:15.520 --> 0:44:18.160 of no offense. I don't, I don't know, I don't. 0:44:18.320 --> 0:44:20.239 I don't want to say it. I guess it's let 0:44:20.280 --> 0:44:23.440 me say, it's not the smartest strategy I think in 0:44:23.440 --> 0:44:26.880 the long run, because it's kind of like you know, 0:44:26.880 --> 0:44:30.360 a maximum commitment now, like committing to the position like 0:44:30.440 --> 0:44:33.200 never change it. Like it's kind of like it gives 0:44:33.280 --> 0:44:36.799 up on their ability to maneuver. Who knows what will 0:44:36.840 --> 0:44:39.920 happen in the future. And it's kind of like painting 0:44:39.920 --> 0:44:42.960 yourself in the corner. You may like that corner for now, 0:44:43.440 --> 0:44:45.920 but you might find that one day you have you 0:44:45.920 --> 0:44:48.919 have a need to move around. And and I don't 0:44:48.920 --> 0:44:52.440 think it's particularly tactical. I don't think it's particularly smart. 0:44:52.800 --> 0:44:54.960 And just from like also the point of view of 0:44:55.000 --> 0:44:59.520 like the political agenda of bitcoin, you know, which is 0:44:59.560 --> 0:45:02.600 also which also which does involve like, you know, having 0:45:02.800 --> 0:45:07.799 some measure of legitimacy ultimately and like good will from 0:45:07.800 --> 0:45:11.520 society which is undermined by this kind of like toxic 0:45:11.600 --> 0:45:18.080 hardline attitude. Yeah. I totally agree with that last point. 0:45:18.120 --> 0:45:20.680 And of course there's like there's also an irony there. 0:45:20.920 --> 0:45:23.719 It's sort of like being a technological luod Eye, but 0:45:24.000 --> 0:45:29.080 at the same time being extremely into this new technology 0:45:29.080 --> 0:45:31.200 that you think is revolutionary and is going to change 0:45:31.200 --> 0:45:34.719 the world. Um, although I guess it's not that new anymore. Um. 0:45:34.760 --> 0:45:36.719 But just on this note, there was one other thing 0:45:36.800 --> 0:45:39.600 I wanted to ask you. Um. So one of the 0:45:39.640 --> 0:45:44.960 things that makes ethereum different is that it does change, um, 0:45:45.000 --> 0:45:48.720 it does respond to challenges. There's a really vibrant debate 0:45:49.040 --> 0:45:53.000 over which direction ethereum should go in UM. And there 0:45:53.040 --> 0:45:55.759 are different factions UM, but you could also describe them 0:45:55.800 --> 0:45:58.319 as communities, and they're all sort of talking to each 0:45:58.320 --> 0:46:02.240 other about the future or of ethereum or the vision 0:46:02.239 --> 0:46:05.880 for the future. I'm just wondering, when it comes to 0:46:06.120 --> 0:46:11.839 building consensus in the ethereum community, how helpful is it 0:46:12.000 --> 0:46:17.600 to have a sort of figurehead UM like Metallic uh 0:46:18.239 --> 0:46:20.759 to help that happen, because that that also seems to 0:46:20.800 --> 0:46:24.600 be like a key difference between the ethereum community and 0:46:24.719 --> 0:46:29.319 Bitcoin that either like sort of has a leader. Yeah, 0:46:29.360 --> 0:46:31.400 I mean it's it's a it's a blessing and a curse. 0:46:31.440 --> 0:46:36.080 I mean sometimes um, you know, basically like sometimes people 0:46:36.440 --> 0:46:41.239 expect Metallic to make cause when like you know, he 0:46:41.280 --> 0:46:44.600 doesn't like really necessarily want to. Sometimes, you know, it's 0:46:44.640 --> 0:46:48.120 really really really useful to have UM, you know, hotalic 0:46:48.239 --> 0:46:51.560 be kind of like a cediator of you know, the 0:46:51.600 --> 0:46:55.960 different political kind of current in ethereum. But basically it 0:46:56.840 --> 0:47:00.200 also it also can lead to a kind of a 0:47:00.239 --> 0:47:03.560 suspension of judgment where basically people think that like, oh, 0:47:03.560 --> 0:47:06.400 like you know, if the Italic approves of this, it 0:47:06.480 --> 0:47:08.680 must be great, you know, and so and so they're 0:47:09.000 --> 0:47:11.560 definitely like cuts both ways. But I would say also 0:47:12.000 --> 0:47:15.960 the Italic is kind of like much more you know, 0:47:16.040 --> 0:47:19.040 benevolent dictator for theorem to then the theorym like one 0:47:19.080 --> 0:47:21.120 point oh where like we still have kind of like 0:47:21.200 --> 0:47:22.920 the OLDEVS call and the E I P s and 0:47:22.920 --> 0:47:24.640 we have like this kind of process of you know, 0:47:24.640 --> 0:47:27.160 the core developers and and and and then in which 0:47:27.200 --> 0:47:29.480 is some way, you know, in some way very independent 0:47:29.560 --> 0:47:32.000 and has been for a very long time of Italics 0:47:32.000 --> 0:47:34.520 like influence on day to day basis. So it Italic 0:47:34.640 --> 0:47:36.680 is actually really more like a researcher and like a 0:47:36.719 --> 0:47:39.359 pioneer like future direction as opposed to like you know, 0:47:39.440 --> 0:47:42.400 providing like any basis or day to day dispute management. 0:47:44.719 --> 0:47:47.120 So to sum up, it's sort of like big picture 0:47:47.120 --> 0:47:49.120 of views. If I'm getting it, it feels like the 0:47:49.160 --> 0:47:52.040 message what you're trying to say is, you know, there 0:47:52.080 --> 0:47:56.799 really is this potential through crypto, through blockchains to create 0:47:56.880 --> 0:48:01.480 new regimes of governance that could in many ways be 0:48:01.480 --> 0:48:03.600 better than what exists now. And some of that may 0:48:03.640 --> 0:48:06.080 be financial, some of that may be political and so forth. 0:48:06.560 --> 0:48:09.719 But to get there, the community itself has to take 0:48:09.760 --> 0:48:13.800 governance more seriously, and that it can't be that if 0:48:13.840 --> 0:48:17.160 if if we're going to replace governance with blockchain governance, 0:48:17.600 --> 0:48:20.320 then the people who manage and sort of like contribute 0:48:20.320 --> 0:48:23.320 to these blockchains have to take the idea of law 0:48:23.680 --> 0:48:26.520 and have to take the idea of potential melieability and 0:48:26.520 --> 0:48:31.120 regulating and maybe cutting off bad behavior more seriously in 0:48:31.239 --> 0:48:34.439 order to get to this point where blockchain has become 0:48:34.480 --> 0:48:37.600 an important thing. I think, I think that's I think 0:48:37.600 --> 0:48:39.440 that's more or less right. I have life by myself 0:48:39.440 --> 0:48:41.719 like having a slight reservation around the idea that law 0:48:41.840 --> 0:48:43.920 is an idea, but like, you know, other than that, 0:48:44.000 --> 0:48:45.640 I think like that's I think that's I think that's right. 0:48:45.640 --> 0:48:48.600 And I think though, you know, it's it's more like 0:48:49.120 --> 0:48:53.920 having a kind of an ecosystem where like you know, 0:48:54.000 --> 0:48:56.640 like the tech people are doing tech governance and you 0:48:56.680 --> 0:49:01.080 have like people with like a legal disciplinary skill doing 0:49:01.320 --> 0:49:03.760 these types of like more dealing with the legal questions 0:49:03.760 --> 0:49:05.600 as opposed to trying to have like a kind of 0:49:06.120 --> 0:49:09.319 passing off of this institution as just technology and so 0:49:09.360 --> 0:49:11.719 I think that the big the big thing really is 0:49:11.719 --> 0:49:16.120 going to be UM more diverse governance or like a 0:49:16.239 --> 0:49:21.200 more multidisciplinary approach as opposed to kind of like tech 0:49:21.239 --> 0:49:23.640 centric approach that we kind of have now and and 0:49:23.640 --> 0:49:25.799 and so and so it's not so much about like 0:49:25.920 --> 0:49:29.400 developers really being more realistic about law. I mean, developers 0:49:29.440 --> 0:49:30.959 don't want anything to do with law, Like they should 0:49:31.000 --> 0:49:33.400 be isolated from liability. They shouldn't be making these decisions. 0:49:33.400 --> 0:49:36.000 These decisions are crazy, like like for the developers to 0:49:36.040 --> 0:49:39.799 be making, you know, like it's not appropriate to put 0:49:39.880 --> 0:49:43.719 a software developer in this kind of legal position. And 0:49:43.800 --> 0:49:45.759 so I think, you know, there's a there's a there's 0:49:45.760 --> 0:49:50.160 a need for kind of reimagination of the nature of 0:49:50.160 --> 0:49:53.080 these institutions or for us to have the kinds of 0:49:53.400 --> 0:49:57.279 skills and capacity to deal with these governance and law 0:49:57.320 --> 0:50:02.960 issues that just don't exist in technical disciplinary retraining. That's 0:50:02.960 --> 0:50:05.399 a really well point. Well, Vlaud, thank you so much 0:50:05.440 --> 0:50:08.000 for UM coming on odd lots. It's great to hear with, 0:50:08.560 --> 0:50:11.920 great to speak with one of the original originals in 0:50:11.920 --> 0:50:14.440 the space, one of the big thinkers, and uh, that 0:50:14.560 --> 0:50:17.160 was a great conversation. I appreciate you joining us. Yeah, 0:50:17.160 --> 0:50:21.839 my pleasure really really fun than thanks a lot, take 0:50:21.840 --> 0:50:38.200 care of luck. So I thought that was actually super fascinating. 0:50:38.239 --> 0:50:41.640 You know, Tracy, have you come across like people, uh 0:50:41.920 --> 0:50:45.799 like on Twitter who like something bad happens, there's something 0:50:45.840 --> 0:50:48.480 and they're like, bitcoin fixes this. Have you come across 0:50:48.600 --> 0:50:54.640 like that? No? Never, that's no never seen. Yeah, of course, 0:50:54.719 --> 0:50:57.279 like bitcoin I once wrote down I think I wrote 0:50:57.320 --> 0:51:01.000 down all the like things that bitcoin was supposed to 0:51:01.120 --> 0:51:03.880 fix um and it was a really long list. And 0:51:03.920 --> 0:51:05.920 I remember I think the last the last time I 0:51:05.960 --> 0:51:09.560 did this was like during the depths of the COVID crisis. 0:51:09.600 --> 0:51:13.560 Can remember some people were talking about blockchain like fixing 0:51:13.600 --> 0:51:18.160 the pandemic, which again seemed like a bit of a reach. Well, 0:51:18.440 --> 0:51:20.600 I mean like obviously would people say that a lot 0:51:20.640 --> 0:51:22.239 of times like okay, I think a lot of times 0:51:22.239 --> 0:51:25.160 they're joking or just you know aligned that people will say. 0:51:25.200 --> 0:51:28.520 But I think like Vlood like raises a really interesting point, 0:51:28.560 --> 0:51:31.000 which and you know, if you want to push a 0:51:31.040 --> 0:51:34.279 deeper or something, it's like, how can bitcoin fix this? 0:51:34.840 --> 0:51:38.160 If like people who are involved in bitcoin don't actually 0:51:38.600 --> 0:51:41.080 and I think this is his point, like don't actually 0:51:41.160 --> 0:51:45.880 seem interested in law or governance, and so like, you know, 0:51:45.920 --> 0:51:48.480 there's this sort of like belief that like somehow bitcoin 0:51:48.560 --> 0:51:51.160 itself has these powers to like write ills or whatever. 0:51:51.560 --> 0:51:54.000 And yet it's not obvious to me that the people 0:51:54.040 --> 0:51:56.759 who are involved in bitcoin in any way, with whether 0:51:56.800 --> 0:52:00.440 it's developers or holders or anything at should you have 0:52:00.480 --> 0:52:04.080 any like interest in engaging on what it would take 0:52:04.480 --> 0:52:08.839 to fix x or y totally. Well, this is why 0:52:08.960 --> 0:52:13.000 I brought up the toxicity point, which is like, if 0:52:13.080 --> 0:52:16.720 you have a community that like kind of describes itself 0:52:16.760 --> 0:52:20.120 as we are changing the world, but then won't actually 0:52:20.520 --> 0:52:26.080 talk very much about ideas of how it's changing the world, um, 0:52:26.239 --> 0:52:28.600 that seems problematic to me. And then the other thing 0:52:28.719 --> 0:52:33.600 is like almost by definition, bitcoin tends to be an 0:52:33.600 --> 0:52:38.719 exclusionary community. Um, there's a finite supply of coins um 0:52:38.960 --> 0:52:42.200 that will ever be in existence. And it's sort of 0:52:42.239 --> 0:52:44.600 like you know, first come, first serve. If you're an 0:52:44.600 --> 0:52:48.800 early adopter, you're kind of worshiped on the platform. And again, 0:52:48.840 --> 0:52:52.560 like if you're trying to recruit people to the cause, 0:52:53.520 --> 0:52:57.520 it seems like a weird stance to take. Like to me, 0:52:58.120 --> 0:52:59.920 I think you would want to be much more open 0:53:00.000 --> 0:53:04.080 and much more engaged and willing at least to talk 0:53:04.120 --> 0:53:10.080 about potential issues either with cryptocurrency itself or the underlying technology, right, 0:53:10.200 --> 0:53:13.040 and like okay, like bitcoin isn't going to fix everything, 0:53:13.040 --> 0:53:15.960 but even if you want to say like bitcoin to 0:53:16.120 --> 0:53:19.759 like be more of like a core financial infrastructure as 0:53:19.800 --> 0:53:23.719 opposed to say gold. Right, So it's like obviously, like 0:53:23.880 --> 0:53:27.120 I don't think like ethereum is the same mutable sort 0:53:27.160 --> 0:53:29.440 of like difficult to change properties as Bitcoin, but you 0:53:29.480 --> 0:53:32.960 could see like people within that community they're clearly going 0:53:33.000 --> 0:53:35.400 for it, Like they're clearly making an effort to plug 0:53:35.440 --> 0:53:40.920 themselves into the financial system. Stable coins that run on ethereum. 0:53:40.960 --> 0:53:44.120 You know, you get bonds, various synthetic equities that run 0:53:44.239 --> 0:53:47.000 somehow are built on top of ethereum, and so they're 0:53:47.000 --> 0:53:48.400 at least like so you know, you could say like 0:53:48.440 --> 0:53:52.680 that community is at least like trying, whereas you know, 0:53:52.760 --> 0:53:54.840 you could see this sort of like yeah, the bitcoin 0:53:54.840 --> 0:53:57.560 communities like fantasy about like everything is going to run 0:53:57.560 --> 0:54:00.400 on a bitcoin standard, but it's not exactly obvious to me. 0:54:00.440 --> 0:54:02.040 It's like, yeah, well, how are you going to get there? 0:54:02.080 --> 0:54:04.080 Like what do you wait? Like what what is the plan? 0:54:04.520 --> 0:54:07.279 And then the actual like plan of like, well, let's 0:54:07.320 --> 0:54:10.279 make this happen then seems to run into the contradiction 0:54:10.280 --> 0:54:13.560 of to make anything happen would require like governance and 0:54:13.640 --> 0:54:19.440 effort totally and like engagement and a minimum, which I 0:54:19.640 --> 0:54:23.640 certainly don't see happening like I see bitcoin like bitcoiner 0:54:23.680 --> 0:54:26.160 is sort of hiving themselves off in a corner of 0:54:26.200 --> 0:54:29.879 the Internet and talking amongst themselves for the most part um, 0:54:29.960 --> 0:54:34.480 which again like is unfortunate in many ways and probably 0:54:35.000 --> 0:54:37.719 one of the reasons why Ethereum seems to be um 0:54:37.960 --> 0:54:41.279 making more in roads into traditional corners of finance. But 0:54:41.320 --> 0:54:44.320 then again, like there is that open question of whether 0:54:44.400 --> 0:54:47.280 or not cryptos should be doing that in the first place, 0:54:47.360 --> 0:54:50.080 given the original vision of you know, sort of being 0:54:50.080 --> 0:54:55.360 this anti authoritarian, anti establishment technology. Yeah, but I guess 0:54:55.400 --> 0:54:57.960 like just like big picture, like I think like Blood's 0:54:58.040 --> 0:55:01.040 message is like super interesting, which is like if you 0:55:01.120 --> 0:55:05.719 are like aiming to create power, And I thought it 0:55:05.800 --> 0:55:08.480 was like his description of just the Internet like setting 0:55:08.520 --> 0:55:11.600 aside like state power, this sort of like feudal internet 0:55:11.760 --> 0:55:13.840 that we've built, which is true where it's like almost 0:55:13.840 --> 0:55:16.240 everything you do you sort of like pay a Facebook 0:55:16.239 --> 0:55:18.920 tex or an Amazon tax or there's just a handful 0:55:18.960 --> 0:55:22.319 of like extremely powerful entities. And so it's like if 0:55:22.360 --> 0:55:25.720 you like have like a vision of replacing that power, 0:55:26.400 --> 0:55:28.640 then you sort of like have to like you know, 0:55:28.719 --> 0:55:30.799 think about law experts. And you can't just have like, 0:55:31.239 --> 0:55:34.399 you know, software developers have it be all on them 0:55:34.440 --> 0:55:38.040 to like think about society and think about law, both 0:55:38.080 --> 0:55:40.279 like sort of literal written law and sort of like 0:55:40.320 --> 0:55:42.920 common law, etcetera. And so like the sort of like 0:55:43.120 --> 0:55:45.319 call to like take this stuff seriously, it's a it 0:55:45.360 --> 0:55:50.600 was like super interesting and important. Yeah. Absolutely. Also his um, 0:55:50.640 --> 0:55:54.920 the idea of sort of creating an independent, separate space 0:55:55.640 --> 0:55:59.359 that you can use to create new agreements or try 0:55:59.440 --> 0:56:02.440 to like come to a new consensus like that to 0:56:02.560 --> 0:56:07.600 me sounds intriguing, um, although I still have questions about it, 0:56:07.640 --> 0:56:15.200 but like also very very different to um the bitcoin vision. Yeah. Absolutely, Okay, Um, 0:56:15.280 --> 0:56:18.200 shall we leave it there. Let's leave it there, all right. 0:56:18.360 --> 0:56:21.160 This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. 0:56:21.200 --> 0:56:23.799 I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at 0:56:23.840 --> 0:56:27.120 Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe wi Isn'tal. You can follow 0:56:27.200 --> 0:56:30.400 me on Twitter at the Stalwart. Follow our guest on Twitter, 0:56:30.520 --> 0:56:34.320 Vlad zam Fair. He's at flad Zamfair. Follow our producer 0:56:34.440 --> 0:56:38.520 Laura Carlson. She's at Laura M. Carlson. Followed the Bloomberg 0:56:38.560 --> 0:56:42.600 head of podcast, Francesca Levy at Francesca Today. And check 0:56:42.600 --> 0:56:45.720 out all of our podcast at Bloomberg under the handle 0:56:46.040 --> 0:57:03.840 at podcasts. Thanks for listening to