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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. So Tracy, obviously,

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Speaker 1: we've been doing a lot of crypto episodes lately, talking

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Speaker 1: about like bitcoin and its future, a lot about Defy lately.

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Speaker 1: But of course, like when all this got started, I remember,

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Speaker 1: like years ago, like people thought this was like very

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Speaker 1: like dangerous, sort of like provocative technology that you know,

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Speaker 1: people like, oh, are they gonna ban Bitcoin? Are they

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Speaker 1: going to ban all this stuff? Um, it feels like

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Speaker 1: I don't know. My opinion is that it feels like

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Speaker 1: a lot of that stuff is like now the dollar

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Speaker 1: signs are in there, a lot of that stuff has

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Speaker 1: been sort of like forgotten about, her sanitized away. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think you still see hints of it when people

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Speaker 1: talk about the potential regulatory response on things like DeFi

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Speaker 1: and the idea of people create synthetic stocks that basically

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Speaker 1: bypass regulations, Like, there is a hint of it there.

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Speaker 1: But you're absolutely right that bitcoin and the associated technology

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Speaker 1: blockchain kind of started out as this crypto anarchist dream

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Speaker 1: that was very much about maybe not undermining or actually

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Speaker 1: I think you could say undermining or bypassing um existing

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Speaker 1: authorities and creating something that was sort of immutable and

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Speaker 1: also outside of their reach, right, like something that totally

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Speaker 1: has its own internal governance, that is permission list that

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Speaker 1: anyone can access, that is extremely um sort of durable

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Speaker 1: to an outside attack, very difficult to thwart. Like this

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Speaker 1: was sort of like the philosophical underpinnings of it. And

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Speaker 1: now you have people on Wall Street talking about like, oh,

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Speaker 1: is bitcoin player role in your retirement portfolio like gold?

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Speaker 1: Or can we trade synthetics soybean futures, uh, the ethereum

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Speaker 1: and like all that is like theoretically kind of exciting,

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't feel very uh, it doesn't feel very

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Speaker 1: cypherpunk like at least like how we thought of all

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Speaker 1: this stuff in the early days. No. I think it's

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Speaker 1: like that classic thing about if the technology lives long enough,

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Speaker 1: it's eventually going to be co opted by Wall Street

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Speaker 1: and the thing that it probably sought to disrupt, right,

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Speaker 1: Like I'm thinking again about peer to peer lending and

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Speaker 1: how that was supposed to bypass traditional banks and then

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Speaker 1: eventually all the banks just got in on it. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, I think with all the excitement over

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Speaker 1: cryptocurrency prices as well as the potential for defy. We've

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Speaker 1: sort of drifted away from the original crypto anarchist or

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Speaker 1: cyber punk dream. You know that that raises all kinds

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Speaker 1: of questions because there's like this marriage happening between crypto

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Speaker 1: and Wall Street, And sometimes I think it's I kind

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Speaker 1: of going to be like oil and water, Like it

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Speaker 1: looks good on paper, but can the too really interact?

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Speaker 1: And then of course, like the question is like, well

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Speaker 1: what happens, Like okay, like maybe they can be tamed

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Speaker 1: and be used to profit, but nonetheless, decentralized distributed uh

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Speaker 1: software databases still extremely powerful, and perhaps we forget that

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Speaker 1: some of the original motivation behind it at our peril. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to push back on that last point, but

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Speaker 1: I do I do agree with you that, like there

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Speaker 1: is a tension between Wall Street getting in on technology,

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Speaker 1: which is basically all about sort of decentralizing control, right

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Speaker 1: and Wall Street slash finance slash banks are very much

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Speaker 1: about having I mean basically they're all about having control,

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Speaker 1: risk control systems in place. Um and so there's sort

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Speaker 1: of an open question about how useful a decentralized technology

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Speaker 1: is going to actually be with um to them exactly right. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think, after all, after all this talk of money

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Speaker 1: on recent episodes, it's good to go back to philosophy

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Speaker 1: a little bit and what these systems really are. And

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Speaker 1: we have the perfect guests. Are we doing blockchain not bitcoin?

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Speaker 1: Kind of kind of? I think that's maybe one way

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Speaker 1: to put it. I think we have like the perfect guys.

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Speaker 1: He's kind of a legendary figure in the crypto world. Um,

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Speaker 1: we're going to be speaking with laud Zamfeer. He's currently

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Speaker 1: an independent researcher for the Ethereum Foundation. He's actually been

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Speaker 1: with involved in the Ethereum project since before launched, actually

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Speaker 1: in April. Before that, he was a very early bitcoiner

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Speaker 1: and I think, you know, everyone else likes to talk

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Speaker 1: about price Vlaude rights, the sort of more philosophical pieces

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Speaker 1: about blockchains and this sort of the power of this software,

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Speaker 1: which he seems to recognize both the potential and the

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Speaker 1: risks for uh so extremely influential player in the space.

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Speaker 1: He also characterizes himself, in addition to being a philosopher

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Speaker 1: and a formal student of the law, an absurdist. So

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Speaker 1: we're gonna find out what that means. Vlaud, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining us. Thanks Joe, I'm a longtime

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Speaker 1: fan of yours. Thank you, And I'm excited to be

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Speaker 1: here and you know, excited to talk about all these

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Speaker 1: pressing issues that we have today in this space. So

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Speaker 1: what do you kick us off? I mentioned your like

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Speaker 1: history a little bit. You're pretty early, You're much earlier

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Speaker 1: into bitcoin than most people. Then you're got involved with

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Speaker 1: the Ethereum Foundation before it actually officially launched as a

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Speaker 1: tradeable coin. What do you talk a little bit about

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Speaker 1: your background? What drew you to this space as an

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Speaker 1: area of research and interest. Well, I got into bitcoin

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Speaker 1: during the Cyprus Bilian sort of financial crisis during like um,

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Speaker 1: it was like one of those crises where like the

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Speaker 1: government there decided to like seize money from people's make

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Speaker 1: accounts in order to pay back that to the you

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Speaker 1: and and then like bitcoin kind of like I saw

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Speaker 1: a lot of headlines then because like people were using

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Speaker 1: it in order to evade this capture. And so for me,

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Speaker 1: like I got into bitcoin as like kind of like

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Speaker 1: revolutionary like financial technology that would like help save people

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Speaker 1: from like capital controls, inflation and like you know this

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Speaker 1: kind of like you know that like the global financial

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Speaker 1: system has been like co opted by like the law everywhere.

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Speaker 1: The bitcoin provided a kind of escape, and so I

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Speaker 1: was in the bitcoin for this kind of escapist you know,

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Speaker 1: cipher palm kind of like radical like we can escape

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Speaker 1: the central banking system kind of agenda, and like that

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Speaker 1: was exciting. Like I was excited you know, for like

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Speaker 1: the future of money at the time, and like I

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Speaker 1: was really like a bitcoin and thrown through in that way.

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Speaker 1: And then I got interested in ethereum um when I

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Speaker 1: kind of realized that like this you know, just like

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Speaker 1: the blockchain and not bitcoin kind of story where actually

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Speaker 1: like the technology like is useful way way outside the

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Speaker 1: scope Bitcoin, and it's something where we potentially use this

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Speaker 1: to like decentralize, you know, all sorts of things and

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Speaker 1: to disintermediate into like a kind of you know, do

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Speaker 1: things without going through gatekeepers, you know, a way outside

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Speaker 1: of just money and finance. And I was interested in

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Speaker 1: like decentralizing academia or like peer review through like content

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Speaker 1: curation and things like this, which are kind of like

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Speaker 1: still in somewhere very much part of ethereum um Um.

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Speaker 1: I definitely want to talk about some potential use cases

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Speaker 1: of the technology. But I also sort of want to

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Speaker 1: jump in with one major question um, which relates to

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Speaker 1: what you were just saying about the original vision for

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Speaker 1: bitcoin and why you got interested in it. But Joe

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Speaker 1: has been writing a lot about Wall Street embracing ethereum,

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Speaker 1: or being pilled, as he puts it, So I'm just curious, like, what,

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Speaker 1: what do you think what is it about ethereum that

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Speaker 1: has caused it to be embraced by the financial community,

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Speaker 1: like a community that a lot of people would say

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Speaker 1: it should probably be bypassing all together. Yeah, and you know,

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Speaker 1: in some way you could say that it is, but

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Speaker 1: I would say, like this basically, like the theory is

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Speaker 1: very much not Bitcoin, and it was like set up

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Speaker 1: in some way to like fill some of the gaps

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Speaker 1: both like politically and technically that Bitcoin left open, and

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Speaker 1: so ethereum like you know, very much like contrast itself

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Speaker 1: to Bitcoin politically, legally, and also has this kind of

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Speaker 1: programmable layer where you can build a lot of applications

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Speaker 1: that are basically like not possible in Bitcoin, and those

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Speaker 1: include things like famously all this DeFi stuff that work

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Speaker 1: intro the conversation with that, like is in some way

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Speaker 1: like financial wizard dream today and so and so, there's

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Speaker 1: like in some way like there is interesting financial stuff

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Speaker 1: that happens on ethereum and ethereum and the way it's

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Speaker 1: like postured and positioned, it's it's not like the future

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Speaker 1: of money and the way Bitcoin is, Like it's hard

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Speaker 1: to understated how much not bitcoin etheroreum is because of

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Speaker 1: the kind of poor representation that theorem gets in the medium.

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Speaker 1: But like if you kind of like are in the scene,

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Speaker 1: like you deal very much like ethereum is not a Bitcoin,

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Speaker 1: and and I think that that the kind of it's

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Speaker 1: not being bigcoin and it posturing in a way that's

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Speaker 1: a much more general morphous you know, you can project

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Speaker 1: your own fantasies onto it. It's not like the future

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Speaker 1: of money in the same kind of like you know,

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Speaker 1: clear defined kind of way that bitcoin tries to be.

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Speaker 1: And so and so I think it has like a

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Speaker 1: niche and crypto currency and blockchain like it kind of

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Speaker 1: and it kind of like created and changed the way

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Speaker 1: that people even think about the space from like you know,

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Speaker 1: just thinking about like this the kind of money and

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Speaker 1: finance narratives actually to get much broader than that which

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Speaker 1: in some way, let's it actually provide a safe space

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Speaker 1: for some of the financial activity. But that's also very

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Speaker 1: questionable in terms of like how safe is it really

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Speaker 1: to like, you know, do these things without like New

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Speaker 1: York being super down with it? And so on? They

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Speaker 1: what you say, They're like, do these things without New

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Speaker 1: York being super down with It's something that I like

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Speaker 1: struggle with our question a lot because, like, on the

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Speaker 1: one hand, like blockchains are theoretically unsensible, and we could

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Speaker 1: get into how realistic that is, but like that is

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Speaker 1: sort of the story, like Okay, you you set the

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Speaker 1: software free, and you theoretically can't stop it. In theory, though,

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Speaker 1: one can imagine like, um, someone looking at a decentralized

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Speaker 1: lending protocol or something that certainly looks like a stock

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Speaker 1: market that runs on the theoreum and saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: regular saying this is illegal. This is like securities fraud

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Speaker 1: or selling of unregistered securities. Do you expect an inevitable

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Speaker 1: clash on that level? And do you think people within

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Speaker 1: the sort of crypto blockchain community are naive about thinking

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Speaker 1: that the law will just sort of not be an

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Speaker 1: impediment in the end, Well, I mean certainly to some extent.

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Speaker 1: But I think what they really think is they think

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Speaker 1: that they've thought this through and they see how it

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Speaker 1: will play out, and that they're going to win, and

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Speaker 1: that like, you know, the time is right for this

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Speaker 1: revolution and like they can do this without New York's

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Speaker 1: approval and like they're just gonna win, you know. But

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Speaker 1: basically like they have this like view actually like a

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Speaker 1: different view of like the legal reality. They're like they

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Speaker 1: don't they like I think they're ready to call New

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Speaker 1: York's bluff and to say like, hey, like you know,

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Speaker 1: you can't tell us what to do on the blockchain,

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Speaker 1: like this is not New York, you know. But then

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Speaker 1: of course you know you're gonna interact with a smart

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Speaker 1: contract and then like get into like a legal relationship

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Speaker 1: with someone in New York and then be suited and

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Speaker 1: then you're like going to the States one day, Like

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Speaker 1: you know, it's there's obviously ways in which you know

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Speaker 1: this is going to come to a head and where

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Speaker 1: people are going to get in trouble legally because of

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Speaker 1: the stuff and normally use it a place for conflict.

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Speaker 1: It's like a place where like it's guaranteed that there's

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Speaker 1: going to be conflict. There's no way to get around

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Speaker 1: that just because of the basic like let's say legal

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Speaker 1: political realities of of defy and of blockchain and blockchain governance.

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Speaker 1: Can we talk a little bit more about the mutability

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Speaker 1: idea of blockchain? So Joe just touched on this, and

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Speaker 1: I think we have to talk about it because it's

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Speaker 1: sort of central to the use case of the technology, right,

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Speaker 1: this idea that you can build a code that can

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Speaker 1: basically exist and be the thing around which like multiple

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Speaker 1: players or two people can come to an agreement and

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Speaker 1: it means they don't have to have a middleman, and um,

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Speaker 1: you know, it allows for these sort of trust less

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Speaker 1: transactions and things like that. But I guess my question is,

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Speaker 1: like how immutable is blockchain actually, given that we've had

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Speaker 1: incidents of the chain or the code being corrupted, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm aware that as we're recording this, I

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Speaker 1: think it's like almost the five year anniversary of the

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Speaker 1: Dow attack when you had, you know, someone who basically

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Speaker 1: drained the Dow of all the ether it had collected

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Speaker 1: from the sale of its tokens. I think that happened

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Speaker 1: in like June five years ago something like that. So

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Speaker 1: I'm just wondering, like how safe, how rely doable is

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Speaker 1: the blockchain if we're going to be relying on it

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Speaker 1: um for all these different transactions. Yeah, I mean, well

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Speaker 1: there's a lot to impack there, but like these are

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Speaker 1: topics that are very near and dear to my heart.

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Speaker 1: And I would say firstly that like, Okay, I think

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Speaker 1: like the true like revolutionary potential blockchain isn't because of

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Speaker 1: the immutability thing. Like I don't think it's like, I

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Speaker 1: don't think immutability thing is really anything more than like

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Speaker 1: misinformation or disinformation about the nature of blockchain in order

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Speaker 1: to kind of manage the way that we have conflict

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Speaker 1: about blockchain tech, and so like that it's like a

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Speaker 1: tactical misinformation that happened from the start in order to

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Speaker 1: protect the blockchain from like what we're seeing as like

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Speaker 1: political legal adversaries that are too strong for us to

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Speaker 1: have like a independent, like legal way to manage dispuse

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Speaker 1: like the Instead, we kind of have this sperchine where

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Speaker 1: basically like we're supposed to not argue about or supposed

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Speaker 1: to not really change the protocol. And I think like

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Speaker 1: the real kind of like potential doesn't come really from

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Speaker 1: the immutability as much as from the fact that this

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Speaker 1: is a new kind of cyberspace. Is that like isn't

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Speaker 1: owned by like the guy who owns this one server.

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Speaker 1: Is kind of like a cyberspace that's in a different

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Speaker 1: kind of space that's like maybe more shared than as

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Speaker 1: possible in like today's like software as a service kind

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Speaker 1: of model. And so it's this in the ways in

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Speaker 1: which we can fight over and the ways we're gonna

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Speaker 1: have disputes over the governance of this space. I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's going to be limited by immutability, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's going to actually unlock a lot of value

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Speaker 1: in blockchain to kind of for us to get over

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Speaker 1: this idea that it's useful because it's immutable, and that

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Speaker 1: is trusted because it's immutable. I mean, it's like saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: you can trust me, I put myself in a straight jacket.

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Speaker 1: Like that's something someone who's not very trustworthy you would say,

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Speaker 1: you know that, someone who's like kind of like maybe

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Speaker 1: up to something else would say and and and and and.

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Speaker 1: In my opinion, you know, basically, like one way to

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Speaker 1: say it is that the norm of not disputing the

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Speaker 1: software was associated tightly with the software, so tightly that

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Speaker 1: you don't even learn about blockchain without learning about the

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Speaker 1: imutabality thing, and that has created this amazing international legal

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Speaker 1: order that is basically extremely depu you know, like it's

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Speaker 1: like says the software is like not allowed to be changed,

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Speaker 1: and like it doesn't matter like who wants it or

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Speaker 1: like what is happening, Like you know, it's a really

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Speaker 1: kind of radical founding fallacy or founding trick or like

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Speaker 1: founding disinformation in like the cryptocurrency space that we talk

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Speaker 1: about the history of a little more. But all this

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Speaker 1: is to say, look, I don't think that it's immutability

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Speaker 1: as much as this question of like this new type

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Speaker 1: of space that we could that we have, you know,

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Speaker 1: because like you know, you can't shut down a server

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Speaker 1: or regulate a server in order to regulate a cyberspace

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Speaker 1: in the way that like it's kind of expected in

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Speaker 1: the cyberspace today, and so I think it creates new

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Speaker 1: political and legal ground for dispute and this and and

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Speaker 1: to Toshi and co. Kind of tried to front run

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Speaker 1: this by saying it's immutable and like we decided that

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Speaker 1: this is the protocol forever. But like that is kind

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Speaker 1: of bullshit. But that doesn't mean that blockchain is not useful.

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Speaker 1: It's it's quite you know, quite the opposite again, So

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Speaker 1: let's talk about this idea a little bit more So. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: if I'm running an application that's like on Amazon Web

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Speaker 1: Services AWS, that's space that they own and I have

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Speaker 1: to play by their rules and Amazon has to play

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Speaker 1: by the government's rules, and that's pretty straightforward. If I'm

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Speaker 1: building an application on ethereum, it isn't, uh that obviously

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Speaker 1: creates new things. So what do you talk us through

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Speaker 1: like some of the implications of this if we're talking

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Speaker 1: about the real power of blockchain is not the immutability

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Speaker 1: per se, but the idea of like a new I

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Speaker 1: guess it's like a new shape of space that exists

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Speaker 1: that's sort of like outside of the conventional way we

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Speaker 1: think about like service as a software. What makes that

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Speaker 1: so revolutionary? And what do you see as the sort

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Speaker 1: of like what's the conflict model I guess within that

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Speaker 1: new role? Yeah, so today the dominant conflict model is

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Speaker 1: like misimutability thing that we kind of just talked about,

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Speaker 1: but it's certainly, you know, not really like sustainable or

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Speaker 1: defensible or like analytically, like you can kind of just

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Speaker 1: tell like not just from history, but like from like

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Speaker 1: the institutional arrangements that like Okay, it's like it's obviously

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Speaker 1: not like actually immutable. Like nothing is like really like

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Speaker 1: actually immutable. That's not like a real you know thing

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Speaker 1: for tech objects. You know, there's like always governance, and

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Speaker 1: so like the what this basically means that like the

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Speaker 1: model for conflicts for this new space is basically like

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Speaker 1: on determined and determined. Basically there's no way that like

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Speaker 1: anyone can say by like decree like what it's going

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Speaker 1: to be because basically no one has that legal competence

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Speaker 1: or authority and and it's kind of like it kind

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Speaker 1: of is forcing us to reckon with the fact that

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Speaker 1: law doesn't just exist inside national borders and that like

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Speaker 1: you know, we have to deal with the way we

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Speaker 1: have disputes over software that doesn't exist and can't just

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Speaker 1: be subject to this command and control line that you

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Speaker 1: mentioned earlier. Well, just to follow up on this a

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Speaker 1: little bit more, I mean, like what is I mean,

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Speaker 1: what makes it so powerful and revolutionary because like in theory,

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Speaker 1: like with bitcoin, like that is you know, it's really

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Speaker 1: hard to change it may not be strictly speaking permanently immutable,

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Speaker 1: but we know, like it is really hard to change.

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Speaker 1: But what is the power that gets unlocked in your

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Speaker 1: view by creating this new space, this new type of software.

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Speaker 1: It's like the power that's created by you know, having

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Speaker 1: somewhere that's outside of like the jurisdiction of your state authority,

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Speaker 1: which like today and for the most part it's like

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Speaker 1: charged with like maintaining legal order. And so you know,

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Speaker 1: it's basically like in some way, like you know, you

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Speaker 1: just aren't subject to the same disputes from the same

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Speaker 1: parties that you like normally would. So like you know, normally,

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Speaker 1: if you were to try to start unregistered securities exchange,

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Speaker 1: that you can really like just like you know, tell

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Speaker 1: you like no, you have to stop, and then like

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Speaker 1: you know, whereas like in crypto like defy today, it's

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Speaker 1: like not so simple basically because it's not clear exactly

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Speaker 1: like how that plays out, like you know, in the

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Speaker 1: terms of the like life span and that conflict. And

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Speaker 1: then if it doesn't play out right, you can actually

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Speaker 1: create a bigger problem through trying to to try and

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Speaker 1: shut it down, um and so and so there's kind

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Speaker 1: of like, um, the legal nondeterminism, like a legal uncertainty

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Speaker 1: that it makes it difficult to see you know, like

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Speaker 1: how is the unit swap going to be like regulated

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Speaker 1: in the US, for example, or like lots of other

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Speaker 1: questions you know where where where it just there's there's

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Speaker 1: no legal opinion in the world that like it's just right,

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Speaker 1: and it's like a matter of like the like you know,

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Speaker 1: real like legal nondeterminism. And so I think that like

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Speaker 1: creates a tremendous opportunity because it's like politically uncontested territory

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Speaker 1: or politically non uncontested, but politically contested is what I

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Speaker 1: mean territory, uh, and so and so that and so

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Speaker 1: it's a kind of whole place for like, you know,

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Speaker 1: not just people who like want to escape finance, but

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Speaker 1: also people who want to like maintain the same ifty

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Speaker 1: of their financial systems. But also not just in finance,

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Speaker 1: but you know because ultimately with like ethereum and like

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Speaker 1: blockchain not bitcoin, we kind of go away beyond just

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Speaker 1: just finance. So two questions here, and they're related to

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Speaker 1: the points you were just making. But can you maybe

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Speaker 1: elaborate on the use cases for blockchain technology? Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: we've been talking a lot about defy defy, UM, making

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Speaker 1: synthetic stocks, things like that. Um, But you mentioned a

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Speaker 1: few other potential use cases like curation earlier, and I'd

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Speaker 1: love to hear more about those. But secondly, how desirable

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Speaker 1: is it to basically bypass these sensitive or politically contested areas,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, a lot of people would argue that

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Speaker 1: regulation exists for a reason. Um, there's a reason why

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Speaker 1: finance in particular, UM is heavily regulated. So I guess

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Speaker 1: maybe just elaborate a little bit more on on your

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Speaker 1: last point, like why would you want this? Why is

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Speaker 1: this a desirable thing to have? Yeah, so so let

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Speaker 1: me say that, Like, Okay, I think answer in a

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Speaker 1: reverse order. Um, So I don't think the escape is

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Speaker 1: like realistic or desirable, but I think what is. You know,

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Speaker 1: something we have to face is the fact that, like

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Speaker 1: we don't have a national or state authority that can

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Speaker 1: call the shots and so and so what that means

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Speaker 1: that we need to develop legal ability legal security without

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Speaker 1: having the ability to rely on like state enforced rules

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Speaker 1: and so. What that means is, you know, the nature

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Speaker 1: of law today as we understand it needs to kind

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Speaker 1: of like or let me take a step back, Like

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Speaker 1: the most powerful legal forms today aren't equipped to deal

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Speaker 1: with this particular conflict, and so it creates a trendous

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Speaker 1: opportunity to for us to find ways to manage our

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Speaker 1: conflicts in a in a in a scope where that

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Speaker 1: doesn't easily lend itself to the like existing like most

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Speaker 1: powerful legal forms and so and so that is like

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Speaker 1: a tremendous opportunity. But I don't think of it as

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Speaker 1: escaping law. I think if it is discovering law actually

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Speaker 1: and discovering you know, and and and and being kind

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Speaker 1: of like you know, secure in our conflicts without having

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Speaker 1: this state that can enforce rules and that so that

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Speaker 1: we can mediate our our experience of law through like

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Speaker 1: the state. Because because no one wants to create like

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Speaker 1: a global crypto law state that will enforce the rules

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Speaker 1: on crypto you know, it's like there's like a push

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Speaker 1: against that kind of like global state in the law

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Speaker 1: and just in like you know, just like basic common

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Speaker 1: sense of like how is this going to be abused

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Speaker 1: and corrupted? But thankfully that we have a tremendous legal

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Speaker 1: history in the world, and we have like tremendous amount

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Speaker 1: of legal culture and it's not doesn't just boil down

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Speaker 1: to state rules, and so we have an opportunity to

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Speaker 1: have important legal disputes in a way that is in

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Speaker 1: some way not according to the normal status quo. And

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Speaker 1: that is trendously interesting. However, as you say, like the

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Speaker 1: idea of escaping law is fallacious and dangerous and facilitates

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Speaker 1: a lot of bad stuff, and and certainly I don't

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Speaker 1: advocate legal escapism. I like I would love to you know,

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Speaker 1: fight it, in particular in the context of crypto, because

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Speaker 1: like people have this idea that just because it's not

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Speaker 1: in this jurisdiction of a state, that that there's no law,

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Speaker 1: and that's just incredibly untrue on like a deep, deep

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Speaker 1: analytical basis, and it keep deep in a political way

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Speaker 1: where like it's impossible to escape the law, like it's

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Speaker 1: just not that's like not a thing. And so it's

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Speaker 1: just like it's just that like the particular you know,

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Speaker 1: state enforced rules legal form that people are like lazily

432
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 1: expect to like always work, you know, but even though

433
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 1: like you know, it like obviously like doesn't always doesn't work.

434
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:51,640
Speaker 1: And so then they and then so then they get

435
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: themselves crazy thinking like I can escape, you know, like

436
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 1: the law, but like that's not that's not reality, Like

437
00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the reality is that like it

438
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,640
Speaker 1: doesn't matter where you go, like you bring the law

439
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: with you, and other people will bring a law to you. Um.

440
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: So I think it just forces us to re evaluate

441
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: as opposed to letting us escape, and that kind of

442
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 1: like new situation where we have like where we have

443
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 1: to deal with our conflicts in a new way. Um.

444
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 1: It's super interesting. Although unfortunately today is dominated by this

445
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 1: a mutability norm, which basically is kind of having people

446
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 1: pretend like, oh, they can't interfere with the software, like

447
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 1: the software is just like fully autonomous, which I think

448
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: is crazy talk because like you know, nothing is above

449
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: the law, like nothing is in subject to dispute. I mean,

450
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: like there's no way in which like software will ever

451
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,120
Speaker 1: be above the law. And so it's only a matter

452
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: of time before mutability becomes kind of like sidelined and

453
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 1: minimize and we have to find another way to be

454
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 1: secure in our conflicts around blockchain and cryptom Okay, so

455
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: you say, like it's kind of crazy talk to the

456
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 1: immutability norm, but it is also true that if New

457
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: York regulators were like unite swap is illegal now there

458
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 1: they can't. In the past that they could there was

459
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 1: a entity offering some sort of like exchange that they

460
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: didn't want. Like I'm thinking, like, okay, like when there

461
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 1: used to be betting, you know, more betting markets that

462
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: were available in the United States on centralized by run

463
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 1: by centralized companies or gambling or whatever, and a regulator

464
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 1: could say this is illegal now and it would go

465
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 1: away and that would be it. But if a regulator

466
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: said in theory where you can't do you to swap

467
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 1: anymore or something like that, it obviously isn't that isn't easy.

468
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 1: Maybe you know, it's not above the law, and maybe

469
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: immutability is unrealistic. But it's obviously a very different interaction

470
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: than it was before when it was like say the

471
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: regulators kicking out online poker site. So in your in

472
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 1: your vision, how does this sort of like traditional notion

473
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: of law enforcement and regulation interact with this new with

474
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 1: this new uh, with this new model. Yeah, And I

475
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: mean that's a that's a challenging question. And basically, like

476
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 1: the easy thing to say is okay, well, you know

477
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: they get to I mean, they still have like all

478
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 1: of their like local and also internet legal means, and

479
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: they still have the ability to issue sanctions and to

480
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: say like oh no, like that's criminal, Like oh no,

481
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: like you know, don't send money to this address because

482
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: like you know, or like don't buy like this token

483
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: because like and you're just like supporting terrorists, like you know.

484
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: They have this authority to do these things, and those

485
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 1: will be and there will be like real legal consequences

486
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 1: for people who find themselves in the you know, in

487
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 1: like let's say, like the scope of US law, which

488
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,360
Speaker 1: is fast and so it's not like they don't have

489
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: means of regulating many persons that are in the law

490
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 1: who would be maybe using these systems, And so I

491
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 1: don't want to minimize that because there's a lot there,

492
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,479
Speaker 1: But I also want to say that like you know,

493
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 1: because of yes, I mutability, but more more generally, because

494
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: of the these protocols need to be used everywhere, you know,

495
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: or not everywhere. But we could like if if they

496
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: were to like say, mandated change to the theory and

497
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: protocol in order to let them shut down youn swap,

498
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 1: like that would become like theory in USA or something,

499
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: and it wouldn't be the same, right, so you need

500
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: to kind of like there needs to be like a

501
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 1: different level of kind of legitimacy and coordination and opt

502
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: in on a global basis for a dispute brought by

503
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: you know, someone to to lead to this change and

504
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: so and so there's kind of like this sort of

505
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 1: like nebulous culture that is going to like you know,

506
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: like judge the legitimacy of this legal order and then

507
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: say whether like you know like like budge for it,

508
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: and and and in some way immutability already says no,

509
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: like very much like no to all of it, and

510
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 1: so like because like that's like the status quote today,

511
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 1: it's quite hard to imagine. However, you know, in the future,

512
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: we're gonna have like a basically you know, let's say,

513
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: you know, mediums are having these disputes. It's not going

514
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: to be like, you know, we just like accept state

515
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: authority to like tell us what to do. I mean,

516
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: because that's like not the ethos at all, but where

517
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: we like you know, don't want to like do like

518
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: and allow like all of the worst behavior. Like you know,

519
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: if you want to have like your cake and need

520
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: it too, you know there there you basically need to

521
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 1: be secure about your ability to manage these conflicts and

522
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 1: to say like you're you have a right to have

523
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 1: your sanctions and we have the right to have our sanctions,

524
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: and like you know, we're not even like a single

525
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: body politic and so and so, like we're not gonna

526
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 1: understand have like official like here is like you know,

527
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: like the etheroryum, like the sanctions that like the THEORYM

528
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: will respect or anything like that. But through the course

529
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: of disputes and through the course of you know, the

530
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: various like events that are going to happen in crypto,

531
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 1: you know these things are going to change basically, and

532
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: you know it's up to kind of like people with

533
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: right legal minds to kind of try to like front

534
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: run all these situations and figure out how we can

535
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: prevent some of these very bad outcomes. So, I mean,

536
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: just on that note, like what does this actually mean

537
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: for society? And I know this is something that you

538
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: Um and Vitalic have touched upon before. You know, this

539
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: idea that society is basic built on contracts and what

540
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: we're talking about is a new type of contract technology

541
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: or a new space um for agreeing contracts in and

542
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: you know, potentially I take your point earlier, but potentially

543
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: contracts that can sort of like outlive or exist beyond

544
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: the reach of um I guess, uh, coordinated legal systems.

545
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: Maybe that's one way of putting it, Like what does

546
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: this mean for society as a whole? Well, I mean,

547
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: you know, that's an excellent question that I don't think

548
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: it has like a super simple answer other than like,

549
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: you know, we need to reckon with the fact that

550
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: we have this kind of space now that we need

551
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: to govern and to understand like how we have conflict

552
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 1: over and around the kind of like first thing to

553
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: note them that I have to mention it's like, okay, well,

554
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: smart contracts aren't actually contracts, like like legal contracts like

555
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: exist in the law, like smart contracts are like in

556
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: the ether, inpersual machine, like in contract a terms like

557
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: smart contracts and more about execution than actually like contracting,

558
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: and so like you know, they're not really contracts. They're

559
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: more like something you might use when you're trying to

560
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: avoid getting into a contract, and then you might accidentally

561
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: get into a contract in some cases. But in terms

562
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: of contract law, like I mean, you can't expect too

563
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: much change. I mean, contract law is like you know,

564
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: like extremely robust, and like, you know, we've been throw

565
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: a lot in contract law and it's not like you know,

566
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: like smart contracts are like a new paradigm and contract

567
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: law really, although they may be a way to, um,

568
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: let's say, execute some terms of a contract in some cases,

569
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: like for the most part, smart contracts are not legal contracts.

570
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: And it's it's kind of in a misnomer that's been

571
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: both tactical and extremely effective, but also is a leads

572
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: to this kind of idea that like these are contracts

573
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,239
Speaker 1: when they're like not really. And I think that like

574
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: the question of like how do blockchains and cryptocurrency let

575
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: us organize, you know, how the impact the way that

576
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: we organize aren't isn't going to be like a necessarily

577
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: a contract law reality as much as it's going to

578
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: be something like in terms of you know, the new

579
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: spaces and the new intersections of different cultures and and

580
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: and economies and and stuff that that are going to

581
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 1: be facilitated in these spaces. But but the question of what,

582
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: like how will blockchains effect and influence like the way

583
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: we organize the society are you know, deep and uncertain,

584
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,959
Speaker 1: and there is an extent to which like the technology

585
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: really is you know, better than traditional consistuts protocols, and

586
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: so like there is a way where like, okay, we

587
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: know it will help us in some computer systems in

588
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: like a rather clear way. But in terms of like

589
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: like you know, the promise of like social revolution or

590
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: like a social change in the order, or like a

591
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: social like you know, like new way like escape or

592
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: things like this, like those are all like deep leading

593
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: out of termistic and like very unclear. Like it could

594
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: just be that like you know, this inspires like the

595
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: worst kind of global totalitarianism in like a crackdown, as

596
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: much as it could be that like you know, we're

597
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: able to use it responsibly in a way where we

598
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 1: can you know, justify the maintenance of our freedoms in

599
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: the law. How could this go bad? I mean we

600
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: were talking earlier before the show, and you you talk

601
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: about this sort of like the danger of unstoppable software.

602
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: What are some of the risks if people don't think

603
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,959
Speaker 1: about this right or if a sort of like if

604
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: a community can't sufficiently self govern if there does, if

605
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: if people fail to achieve some sort of like norms

606
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: about say cutting off some of the most egregious Uh,

607
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: patterns of behavior that can be done on a blockchain,

608
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: Like what are some of the risks that people should

609
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: be thinking about. I don't necessarily want to give people ideas,

610
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: but I will say that, like whatever you have anything

611
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: in the law that isn't subject dispute, you could like

612
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: imagine it being part of like some Rube Goldberg machine

613
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: that like does some kind of like you know, very

614
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: unlawful thing in the end. So so so you can

615
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: you can imagine that, like you know, each of these

616
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: indisputable components can together come together to make things possible,

617
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: like you know, the sharp increase in ransomware, and like

618
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: you know, for for one example, that's like kind of

619
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: like everyone knows about and it won't give anyone ideas

620
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: for me to talk about, Like like ransomware is a

621
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: good is a good example of something where you know

622
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,479
Speaker 1: it's it just makes the business of ransom so much

623
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: easier to use cryptocurrency. And and so you know that

624
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: is like some like quite obvious you know, unlawful bad

625
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: some of different levels conduct that is basically being facilitated here.

626
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: And then we currently don't have the means to really

627
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: stop or let me rephrase, we don't have the will

628
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: or the legal strategy like legal capacity to stop. Is

629
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: that something in your view that the cryptocurrency or say

630
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: people within say the Ethereum network, or I guess you

631
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: know some of these are different networks, Bitcoin, narrow, et cetera.

632
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: These things that people who are working on governance in

633
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: these areas should be more actively thinking about. Absolutely, uh,

634
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: and I think you know, um people need to be

635
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: much more secure in their ability to handle conflicts in

636
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 1: cryptome Um today. They're you know, they have these kind

637
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: of like aggressive postures because like they don't believe that

638
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: they can handle these disputes. They think that if you

639
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: like delete some coins from some ransomware attack, then like

640
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: that opens the floodgates to like the government deleting your

641
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: coins because you didn't pay taxes or whatever. You know,

642
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: you can imagine people have like fears about all the

643
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,320
Speaker 1: things that could happen if we started to do anything,

644
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: and and and and people like don't have like the

645
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 1: security to like say, look, you know, we can judge

646
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: these things, and we don't need to say, look, we

647
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: don't need to delegate to like a system that decides

648
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: and therefore we captured by the system, like we can

649
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: have like the legal security and like the responsibility for

650
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,399
Speaker 1: legal judgments in order to you know, have our cake,

651
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: and needed to to like not out un checked state authority,

652
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 1: but also to not allow unchecked scammers. Since you brought

653
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 1: up scamming and ransomware, I'm wondering if we can just

654
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 1: go back to that question from earlier about use cases

655
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 1: for blockchain, Yeah, because I like what gets you excited

656
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 1: about potential use cases for the tech? I'm I'm really

657
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: excited about you know, are this like opportunity that we

658
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: have to both both because of the improvement in the technology,

659
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: but also because of this crazy legal trick and this

660
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,399
Speaker 1: crazy legal reality that like crypto exist. And I think,

661
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: you know, the thing that's like most exciting to me

662
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: is like this multidisciplinary mix of like this crazy kind

663
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: of institution which like you know, sometimes passes itself off

664
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: as tech, but it's really of a very interesting, dynamic, multifaceted,

665
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: like ontologically very complex type of institution. And I think

666
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: that like, you know, these although primitive today, stand to

667
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: become like complex, dynamic, very interesting institutions that get to

668
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 1: do a lot for us that like currently we don't

669
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 1: have in cyberspace. Because like in cyberspace today, we have

670
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: basically a situation where we have a kind of a

671
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 1: neo feudalism where like our feudal lords who like own

672
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: the big computers like own us. And I'm like not

673
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: exaggerating by a lot, And so I think there's like

674
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: a state of crisis in cyberspace that crypto helps to

675
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: respond to, you know, as much as also there's like

676
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: a state of crisis in like global governance and global

677
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: law and like blockchain crypto kind of like sits in

678
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: that space and can help us provide new realities, new paradigms,

679
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,240
Speaker 1: new places where we can try again and like hopefully

680
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: not fail this time to have like you know, good

681
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: governance and to have like you know, institutions that are

682
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: part of a kind of society that we want to

683
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 1: live in. So I think I think it's like you know,

684
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: very much like very much political, and very much in

685
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: reaction to some of the prevailing political reality. Today. We're

686
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: basically like you know, power is concentrated and in a

687
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 1: way where perhaps um with this decentralized computer or you

688
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: know kind of like you know, like the servers that

689
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: are like you know, I'm no longer owned the cyberspace, Um,

690
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 1: we can maybe create and have a new balance of powers,

691
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: like like like more balance of powers, you know, more

692
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: rule of law as opposed to just you know, having

693
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: like the feudal lords or like the legislatures or the

694
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 1: states kind of like act lawless and and like lord

695
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: over everyone as if like you know, they own the law.

696
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: Do you envision in like a future theoretically in which

697
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: sort of like everything that we do online, whether it's

698
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: something that resembles traditional social networking sharing sharing stories and

699
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 1: videos and photos of our friends communication, that it could

700
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 1: all essentially be done in this sort of like new

701
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: decentralized sort of like crypto based manner. Like is that

702
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: like a future that seems realistic too? Um, Well, there's

703
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 1: a number of like technical like legal, economic, you know,

704
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 1: there's lots of lots of barriers, and there's like a

705
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: you know, just because we have like new primitive forms

706
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: in this direction and like way more possibilities and before,

707
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that like we're there are yet. I mean,

708
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 1: like privacy in cryptocurrency is very bad, and there's a

709
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: lot of basic norms around how we have disputes that

710
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: aren't really settled in a way that's like secure or sustainable.

711
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,479
Speaker 1: There's a lot of reasons why you know, we can't

712
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: and we wouldn't, and they would be like a very

713
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: bad idea for us to try to like do everything

714
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:09,399
Speaker 1: with cryptosystems. That said, you know, it's not clear what

715
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:14,439
Speaker 1: the technical, legal, economic, etcetera. Limits are, and so that's

716
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: something that's like kind of also subject to ongoing kind

717
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: of discovery, negotiation and so on. It's hard to imagine

718
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: how that would look safe. It's easier to imagine why

719
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: people would do it despite it not being safe. And

720
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: so like I'm you know, concerned because like you know,

721
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: of the like lack of basic infrastructure that's like required

722
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: for this to be safe. However, the opportunities there, the

723
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 1: stakes are, they're like the contention is there, like people

724
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 1: are ready to fight over these issues and and and

725
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 1: and and kind of see what happens. Although you know,

726
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 1: we are still in a position where we could easily

727
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: see some really bad outcomes when like for example, you know,

728
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: like the unsoppable software, the like global cyber state, or

729
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: like the uh, you know, the feudalists just controlling everything.

730
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of bad outcomes that are kind

731
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: of in the cake today that like could easily get

732
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: baked you know, into like our reality, but it's not

733
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 1: it's still like not said in stone yet, it's not

734
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: clear like you know, these these outcomes will happen, you know,

735
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: I'm optimistic that we can find better outcomes than than

736
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: any of these kind of like established ones. I wanted

737
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: to go back to the beginning of this discussion, when

738
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: we were talking about what attracted you into bitcoin in

739
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: the first place, and then how you got interested in

740
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: the theory um um. And it's a slightly weird I guess,

741
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 1: like cultural or values question, but some people would describe

742
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 1: the bitcoin community today as being I guess toxic is

743
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 1: one word, or like openly hostile to outsiders and hostile

744
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: to alternate visions of crypto. And so I'm just wondering,

745
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 1: as someone who sits on the opposite side of bitcoin now, um,

746
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 1: and it's heavily involved in ethereum, like, how would you

747
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: characterize the cultural differences between Bitcoin versus ethereum. Yeah, I

748
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: mean I think, um, you know, Bitcoin has like a

749
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 1: relatively defined culture, whereas like ethereums culture is still kind

750
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: of like amorphous and people you know, have different like

751
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: sustained different very different politics and views within ethereum. So

752
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: ethereum kind of is like much more diverse and in

753
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: some way less toxic than big coin because like the

754
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 1: the like incentive to like get everyone out who doesn't

755
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: toe the party line, like isn't really like there as

756
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: much in ethereum. And so what happens is basically like

757
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: ethereum is like supports much more diversity, you know, and

758
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 1: an ethereum by by virtue of like being more amorphous,

759
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: by about like being about kind of everything instead of

760
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: just being about money, it kind of has um you know,

761
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 1: support from much more efficients. And but that also means

762
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 1: that like there are like struggles and factions and people

763
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: like you know, like having fights over like what is

764
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: ethereum in a way that doesn't really happen in bitcoin

765
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 1: and bitcoin they're kind of just like you know, twenty

766
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: one million, twenty one million bitcoins and if you don't agree,

767
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: get out, and if you don't like one magna blocks

768
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: like get out, and like you know, they have this

769
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: kind of a toxicity, which which is which is kind

770
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: of like um. I like to describe it as a

771
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 1: channel authentication UH strategy where basically it makes it so

772
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 1: that like you, if you don't, if you're not like

773
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 1: one of them, like you can't really tolerate to be there.

774
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: And so you can kind of just like bird virtue

775
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: of being in those channels, like you're kind of authenticated,

776
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: and it makes it a safe space for them, and

777
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: I think it also it also helps them reinforce this immutability.

778
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 1: And I'm like earlier Joe mentioned like, oh, it would

779
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: be very hard to change bitcoin, and the reason is

780
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 1: because like you have all these uh toxic bitcoiners who

781
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 1: will basically like be horrible to you if you suggest

782
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 1: that we don't need to do this immutability thing. And

783
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: not that it's like hard to change the software, it's

784
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 1: just like hard to get through the bitcoiners who like

785
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,919
Speaker 1: have this kind of like pseudo cult or like real

786
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: cult or pseudo religion around around Bitcoin. I mean, I

787
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: guess the question is is, like we've all interacted with that,

788
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 1: and we sort of know that phenomenon, But could it

789
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: be that that's a good sort of like survival strategy,

790
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 1: a good evolutionary strategy. It's like, obviously Ethereum seems to

791
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: be more open to debate and governance questions seem to

792
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: be more up in the air and so forth. But

793
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: you know, if you're trying to like bootstrap a new

794
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: money into existence in a way that bitcoin is trying

795
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: to do, does it make sense perhaps to create this

796
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: cult environment so that you go through so that even

797
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: during the lean times, nobody is threatned. Nobody, nobody who's

798
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,240
Speaker 1: involved wants to pivot or no change. Like adversity comes

799
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, some people might be tempted to

800
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: change the project, but you know, bitcoiners by shedding themselves

801
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 1: essentially of people who would be even tempted to think

802
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: about changing the software or changing the project, Like, does

803
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 1: that create a certain amount of resilience that can survive

804
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: attacks or periods where the price is low and so forth.

805
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: Kind of, but it also lends itself to be coming

806
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,879
Speaker 1: like obsolete or like a relic or like a kind

807
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 1: of quaint vintage item or something. You know, it's kind

808
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 1: of no offense. I don't, I don't know, I don't.

809
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: I don't want to say it. I guess it's let

810
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: me say, it's not the smartest strategy I think in

811
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: the long run, because it's kind of like you know,

812
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 1: a maximum commitment now, like committing to the position like

813
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: never change it. Like it's kind of like it gives

814
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 1: up on their ability to maneuver. Who knows what will

815
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 1: happen in the future. And it's kind of like painting

816
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: yourself in the corner. You may like that corner for now,

817
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: but you might find that one day you have you

818
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,919
Speaker 1: have a need to move around. And and I don't

819
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: think it's particularly tactical. I don't think it's particularly smart.

820
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: And just from like also the point of view of

821
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: like the political agenda of bitcoin, you know, which is

822
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 1: also which also which does involve like, you know, having

823
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 1: some measure of legitimacy ultimately and like good will from

824
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: society which is undermined by this kind of like toxic

825
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: hardline attitude. Yeah. I totally agree with that last point.

826
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: And of course there's like there's also an irony there.

827
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: It's sort of like being a technological luod Eye, but

828
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: at the same time being extremely into this new technology

829
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: that you think is revolutionary and is going to change

830
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 1: the world. Um, although I guess it's not that new anymore. Um.

831
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: But just on this note, there was one other thing

832
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you. Um. So one of the

833
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 1: things that makes ethereum different is that it does change, um,

834
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,720
Speaker 1: it does respond to challenges. There's a really vibrant debate

835
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: over which direction ethereum should go in UM. And there

836
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: are different factions UM, but you could also describe them

837
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 1: as communities, and they're all sort of talking to each

838
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,240
Speaker 1: other about the future or of ethereum or the vision

839
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 1: for the future. I'm just wondering, when it comes to

840
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:11,839
Speaker 1: building consensus in the ethereum community, how helpful is it

841
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: to have a sort of figurehead UM like Metallic uh

842
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: to help that happen, because that that also seems to

843
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: be like a key difference between the ethereum community and

844
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 1: Bitcoin that either like sort of has a leader. Yeah,

845
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's a it's a blessing and a curse.

846
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: I mean sometimes um, you know, basically like sometimes people

847
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: expect Metallic to make cause when like you know, he

848
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 1: doesn't like really necessarily want to. Sometimes, you know, it's

849
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: really really really useful to have UM, you know, hotalic

850
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: be kind of like a cediator of you know, the

851
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: different political kind of current in ethereum. But basically it

852
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 1: also it also can lead to a kind of a

853
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: suspension of judgment where basically people think that like, oh,

854
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 1: like you know, if the Italic approves of this, it

855
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: must be great, you know, and so and so they're

856
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: definitely like cuts both ways. But I would say also

857
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: the Italic is kind of like much more you know,

858
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: benevolent dictator for theorem to then the theorym like one

859
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 1: point oh where like we still have kind of like

860
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: the OLDEVS call and the E I P s and

861
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: we have like this kind of process of you know,

862
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: the core developers and and and and then in which

863
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: is some way, you know, in some way very independent

864
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: and has been for a very long time of Italics

865
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: like influence on day to day basis. So it Italic

866
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 1: is actually really more like a researcher and like a

867
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,359
Speaker 1: pioneer like future direction as opposed to like you know,

868
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 1: providing like any basis or day to day dispute management.

869
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: So to sum up, it's sort of like big picture

870
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: of views. If I'm getting it, it feels like the

871
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: message what you're trying to say is, you know, there

872
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 1: really is this potential through crypto, through blockchains to create

873
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: new regimes of governance that could in many ways be

874
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: better than what exists now. And some of that may

875
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 1: be financial, some of that may be political and so forth.

876
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: But to get there, the community itself has to take

877
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 1: governance more seriously, and that it can't be that if

878
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: if if we're going to replace governance with blockchain governance,

879
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 1: then the people who manage and sort of like contribute

880
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,320
Speaker 1: to these blockchains have to take the idea of law

881
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: and have to take the idea of potential melieability and

882
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: regulating and maybe cutting off bad behavior more seriously in

883
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:34,439
Speaker 1: order to get to this point where blockchain has become

884
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: an important thing. I think, I think that's I think

885
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 1: that's more or less right. I have life by myself

886
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 1: like having a slight reservation around the idea that law

887
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 1: is an idea, but like, you know, other than that,

888
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: I think like that's I think that's I think that's right.

889
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: And I think though, you know, it's it's more like

890
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: having a kind of an ecosystem where like you know,

891
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: like the tech people are doing tech governance and you

892
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 1: have like people with like a legal disciplinary skill doing

893
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,760
Speaker 1: these types of like more dealing with the legal questions

894
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: as opposed to trying to have like a kind of

895
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 1: passing off of this institution as just technology and so

896
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 1: I think that the big the big thing really is

897
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: going to be UM more diverse governance or like a

898
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 1: more multidisciplinary approach as opposed to kind of like tech

899
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 1: centric approach that we kind of have now and and

900
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 1: and so and so it's not so much about like

901
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: developers really being more realistic about law. I mean, developers

902
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:30,959
Speaker 1: don't want anything to do with law, Like they should

903
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 1: be isolated from liability. They shouldn't be making these decisions.

904
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: These decisions are crazy, like like for the developers to

905
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 1: be making, you know, like it's not appropriate to put

906
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 1: a software developer in this kind of legal position. And

907
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 1: so I think, you know, there's a there's a there's

908
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: a need for kind of reimagination of the nature of

909
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 1: these institutions or for us to have the kinds of

910
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 1: skills and capacity to deal with these governance and law

911
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 1: issues that just don't exist in technical disciplinary retraining. That's

912
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,399
Speaker 1: a really well point. Well, Vlaud, thank you so much

913
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 1: for UM coming on odd lots. It's great to hear with,

914
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 1: great to speak with one of the original originals in

915
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 1: the space, one of the big thinkers, and uh, that

916
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 1: was a great conversation. I appreciate you joining us. Yeah,

917
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 1: my pleasure really really fun than thanks a lot, take

918
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 1: care of luck. So I thought that was actually super fascinating.

919
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 1: You know, Tracy, have you come across like people, uh

920
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 1: like on Twitter who like something bad happens, there's something

921
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: and they're like, bitcoin fixes this. Have you come across

922
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 1: like that? No? Never, that's no never seen. Yeah, of course,

923
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 1: like bitcoin I once wrote down I think I wrote

924
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: down all the like things that bitcoin was supposed to

925
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 1: fix um and it was a really long list. And

926
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: I remember I think the last the last time I

927
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 1: did this was like during the depths of the COVID crisis.

928
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 1: Can remember some people were talking about blockchain like fixing

929
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: the pandemic, which again seemed like a bit of a reach. Well,

930
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 1: I mean like obviously would people say that a lot

931
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 1: of times like okay, I think a lot of times

932
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: they're joking or just you know aligned that people will say.

933
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: But I think like Vlood like raises a really interesting point,

934
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 1: which and you know, if you want to push a

935
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 1: deeper or something, it's like, how can bitcoin fix this?

936
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 1: If like people who are involved in bitcoin don't actually

937
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 1: and I think this is his point, like don't actually

938
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 1: seem interested in law or governance, and so like, you know,

939
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 1: there's this sort of like belief that like somehow bitcoin

940
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 1: itself has these powers to like write ills or whatever.

941
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: And yet it's not obvious to me that the people

942
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 1: who are involved in bitcoin in any way, with whether

943
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: it's developers or holders or anything at should you have

944
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 1: any like interest in engaging on what it would take

945
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:08,839
Speaker 1: to fix x or y totally. Well, this is why

946
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: I brought up the toxicity point, which is like, if

947
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:16,720
Speaker 1: you have a community that like kind of describes itself

948
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 1: as we are changing the world, but then won't actually

949
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 1: talk very much about ideas of how it's changing the world, um,

950
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 1: that seems problematic to me. And then the other thing

951
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 1: is like almost by definition, bitcoin tends to be an

952
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 1: exclusionary community. Um, there's a finite supply of coins um

953
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 1: that will ever be in existence. And it's sort of

954
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 1: like you know, first come, first serve. If you're an

955
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:48,800
Speaker 1: early adopter, you're kind of worshiped on the platform. And again,

956
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 1: like if you're trying to recruit people to the cause,

957
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: it seems like a weird stance to take. Like to me,

958
00:52:58,120 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 1: I think you would want to be much more open

959
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 1: and much more engaged and willing at least to talk

960
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: about potential issues either with cryptocurrency itself or the underlying technology, right,

961
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: and like okay, like bitcoin isn't going to fix everything,

962
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 1: but even if you want to say like bitcoin to

963
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,759
Speaker 1: like be more of like a core financial infrastructure as

964
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 1: opposed to say gold. Right, So it's like obviously, like

965
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: I don't think like ethereum is the same mutable sort

966
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 1: of like difficult to change properties as Bitcoin, but you

967
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 1: could see like people within that community they're clearly going

968
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 1: for it, Like they're clearly making an effort to plug

969
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 1: themselves into the financial system. Stable coins that run on ethereum.

970
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 1: You know, you get bonds, various synthetic equities that run

971
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: somehow are built on top of ethereum, and so they're

972
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 1: at least like so you know, you could say like

973
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 1: that community is at least like trying, whereas you know,

974
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 1: you could see this sort of like yeah, the bitcoin

975
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 1: communities like fantasy about like everything is going to run

976
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 1: on a bitcoin standard, but it's not exactly obvious to me.

977
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, well, how are you going to get there?

978
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 1: Like what do you wait? Like what what is the plan?

979
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 1: And then the actual like plan of like, well, let's

980
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: make this happen then seems to run into the contradiction

981
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 1: of to make anything happen would require like governance and

982
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 1: effort totally and like engagement and a minimum, which I

983
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: certainly don't see happening like I see bitcoin like bitcoiner

984
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: is sort of hiving themselves off in a corner of

985
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,879
Speaker 1: the Internet and talking amongst themselves for the most part um,

986
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 1: which again like is unfortunate in many ways and probably

987
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,719
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why Ethereum seems to be um

988
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 1: making more in roads into traditional corners of finance. But

989
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 1: then again, like there is that open question of whether

990
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,280
Speaker 1: or not cryptos should be doing that in the first place,

991
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 1: given the original vision of you know, sort of being

992
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:55,360
Speaker 1: this anti authoritarian, anti establishment technology. Yeah, but I guess

993
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 1: like just like big picture, like I think like Blood's

994
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 1: message is like super interesting, which is like if you

995
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 1: are like aiming to create power, And I thought it

996
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: was like his description of just the Internet like setting

997
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 1: aside like state power, this sort of like feudal internet

998
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:13,840
Speaker 1: that we've built, which is true where it's like almost

999
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:16,240
Speaker 1: everything you do you sort of like pay a Facebook

1000
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 1: tex or an Amazon tax or there's just a handful

1001
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:22,319
Speaker 1: of like extremely powerful entities. And so it's like if

1002
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,720
Speaker 1: you like have like a vision of replacing that power,

1003
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 1: then you sort of like have to like you know,

1004
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 1: think about law experts. And you can't just have like,

1005
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:34,399
Speaker 1: you know, software developers have it be all on them

1006
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 1: to like think about society and think about law, both

1007
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: like sort of literal written law and sort of like

1008
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: common law, etcetera. And so like the sort of like

1009
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:45,319
Speaker 1: call to like take this stuff seriously, it's a it

1010
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 1: was like super interesting and important. Yeah. Absolutely. Also his um,

1011
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: the idea of sort of creating an independent, separate space

1012
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:59,359
Speaker 1: that you can use to create new agreements or try

1013
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,440
Speaker 1: to like come to a new consensus like that to

1014
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 1: me sounds intriguing, um, although I still have questions about it,

1015
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 1: but like also very very different to um the bitcoin vision. Yeah. Absolutely, Okay, Um,

1016
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 1: shall we leave it there. Let's leave it there, all right.

1017
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 1: This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast.

1018
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at

1019
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe wi Isn'tal. You can follow

1020
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 1: me on Twitter at the Stalwart. Follow our guest on Twitter,

1021
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:34,320
Speaker 1: Vlad zam Fair. He's at flad Zamfair. Follow our producer

1022
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 1: Laura Carlson. She's at Laura M. Carlson. Followed the Bloomberg

1023
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 1: head of podcast, Francesca Levy at Francesca Today. And check

1024
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,720
Speaker 1: out all of our podcast at Bloomberg under the handle

1025
00:56:46,040 --> 00:57:03,840
Speaker 1: at podcasts. Thanks for listening to