WEBVTT - Monopolies In The U.S. Have Threatened Our Democracy: Tim Wu 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:08.720 Welcome to the Bloomberg p m L Podcast. I'm Pim Fox. 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:11.520 Along with my co host Lisa Bramowitz. Each day we 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:15.120 bring you the most important, noteworthy, and useful interviews for 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:17.840 you and your money, whether you're at the grocery store 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.720 or the trading floor. Find the Bloomberg p m L 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:27.280 Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and Bloomberg dot Com. A 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:31.000 big question, especially as the big tech giants sell off 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.120 today and exert an incredible amount of control over markets, 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:37.760 is how much control should they have over the tech space? 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:40.280 How big should they be allowed to get? And weighing 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:42.520 in on that as Tim Woo, Professor Law of Law 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:45.760 at Columbia Law School, also a contributing opinion writer at 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:48.199 The New York Times, author of a new book, The 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:51.159 Curse of bigness Antitrust in the New Gilded Age, And 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:53.760 just if people don't know who you are, your background 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:55.760 is tremendous. You've worked in the White House, You've worked 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.480 at the Federal Trade Commission, You've been a law clerk 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:02.040 for Judge Postner and Justice Brier. So can we just 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:06.680 start with why did you write this book? Now? I 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:10.560 think the time has come to start really engaging with 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:13.760 these questions again, age old questions about how the US 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:19.160 economy is structured and how much monopoly and oligopoly we allow. 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:22.280 We face these questions before hundred years ago. I think 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:25.400 it's time to face them once again. Is there a 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:30.000 difference between a consumer and a citizen? Uh? Well, they're 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:32.240 you know, technically the same people. But I think that 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:36.000 we have more interests than just our identities as as 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:38.200 as consumers. In other words, I think some of the 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:42.080 reasons you might want anti trust enforcement our citizen interests. 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.679 That the political stakes of too much private control over 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:48.120 political outcomes. Well, yeah, that was one thing. You sort 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:52.600 of drew a parallel between monopolies and fascism and that 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:56.880 basically democracy depends on a certain sort of equality of businesses. 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:58.680 Can you explain. Yeah, sure, Now, I mean this is 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:02.440 a historic and they every monopolies a fascist enterprise. But 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:05.920 there there is this there's this dark history I think 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:11.600 where countries allow too much domination of the economy by monopolies, 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:15.320 too much power centralized in private companies, have shown themselves 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:19.000 vulnerable to to to to dictatorship. Um. You know, the 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:22.720 most strong examples were Italy in Germany in the nineteen thirties, 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:24.840 and I think when people could really angry, if if, 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:27.320 if their needs aren't meant, they feel that the economic 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:31.280 system is completely unaccountable, they start turning to stronger, uh 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:34.239 and more radical leaders. And I'm very worried about the 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:36.960 politics of our time going in the same direction that 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:39.320 we saw in the twenty century. Do you see a 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:42.560 time when there will be government action to break up 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:47.520 companies such as Google and Facebook? I think we're do um. 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:51.000 There hasn't been a major case in more than twenty years. 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:54.840 And it was once an American tradition that when you 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:59.120 have a dominant monopolist of company that dominates an industry 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:03.560 like Microsoft, off A T and T al Cola standard oil, 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:05.959 you go back that the adjustice Department would take a 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:08.280 run at them. Uh. They didn't always win, but they 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:10.520 broke up a lot. So I would imagine we are 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:13.720 do So I just want to push back a little 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:17.320 bit because you talked about how big corporations can kind 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.120 of exert their power over the political scenario in a 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:24.440 disproportionate way. Someone could argue that actually they could also 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:27.240 exert their power, uh, you know, in ways that go 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:29.480 against the political establishment and have a lot of power, 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:33.200 whether it's uh, you know, reducing greenhouse emissions, which is 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:36.880 what we're seeing, or whether it's increasing diversity among staff. 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:39.760 So I mean there's a flip side of that too. No, yeah, no, 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:41.680 I hear you. It just depends on what kind of 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.240 government you believe in, you know, whether you think that 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.920 the decisions should mainly be made by private industry, which 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:49.800 even if they make good decisions, you still have to 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:52.480 wonder why is that their decision? Or if you essentially 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:55.240 believe in democracy, which is more to do with with 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.360 obviously with representatives making those decisions. So how do we 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.720 get here? And how do of a regulator or a 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:05.400 judge determine when a business has gotten too big? Yeah? 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:07.240 So I think we're in a There's been a forty 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:12.320 year campaign to weaken and feeble that the antitrust laws. 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:15.960 Um it has more success with the Republican Party, but 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:18.800 has sort of spread to some degree to both parties. 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.240 And you know, it was on the road the back. 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:26.840 It's associated with Robert Borke, the famous almost justice of 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:31.520 the Supreme Court. Yes, it was borked, but his actually 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:36.160 his effect was stronger than many actual justices because so 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.560 he said he kind of rode the coattails of a 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:41.840 movement that said the judiciary is out of control, and 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:45.480 you know, VI Opposition Roe v. Wade, a lot of 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:48.080 other things, and said, we need to uh. And I 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:50.720 think what we've done is destroy something that was once 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:53.240 very important to the U. S. Economy, which is a 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:58.440 supervision of excessively sized companies and and and breakups were necessary. 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:03.080 As part of the theme of your book, The Curse 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:07.640 of bigness Antitrust in the New Gilded Age. You right 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:13.719 in a way about Louis Lewis Brandeis, former Justice on 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.160 the Supreme Court. I'm wondering if you could just tell 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.240 people who he was briefly and why you brought him 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:23.960 into this discussion. Yes, so, Lewis Brandeis is probably most 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:27.400 famous as Justice Supreme Court. He was also a key 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:31.120 advisor to Woodrow Wilson the nineteen twelve campaign. And I 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:34.159 think he is important for his vision of what the 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:39.200 economy could or should be. Uh. He saw the economy 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:42.000 in in deeper terms. He thought the point of a 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:47.000 democracy was flourishing of its citizens and human flourishing more generally. 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:48.839 And so he said, you know, we really have to 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:51.799 realize the economy is the biggest factor in most people's lives, 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:55.960 and they need the economic liberties economic securities before this 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:57.640 will be a place that people really want to live. 0:05:57.960 --> 0:05:59.440 And sometimes I think we've lost sight of that. We're 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:01.800 sort of upset with numbers and you know, did the 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:04.000 Dow go up today or down? And you know what 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:06.240 about what the economy does for what it means to 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:08.360 be a citizen of this country. So which mega mergers 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:11.000 do you see as being the most dangerous currently? That's 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:13.040 a great question. I think there's a lot of mergers 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:15.560 we shouldn't have let happen. I take the airline industry 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:19.280 as a good example. I don't think other than shareholders 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.200 of airlines that that that's particularly good for passengers. Just 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:25.960 have three major airlines. A huge number of hospital and 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.360 pharmaceutical mergers I think have led to higher prices, worst 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:32.120 care UM. In the tech sector, I don't think we 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:34.960 should have let Facebook buy all its competitors. I think 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:39.000 we've seen the fallout from that politically, security wise, from 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:44.000 having one company with so much domination over social networking. UM. 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:46.640 You know, every day there's a new scandal. So I 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:49.479 think we see the curse of business across the economy. 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:51.320 And you know, I'm not saying something radical. I want 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:54.400 to return to sort of the American tradition of of 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:59.560 competition being our guiding light and decentralized power being how 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:03.279 we run the country. Just to stick to a couple 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:06.279 of luminaries, perhaps just so that we get a little 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:10.400 bit of detail about how you kind of frame the book. Um, 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:15.520 John Perry Barlow, Yes, people may not remember him, but 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:18.720 I've got the gray hair to prove it. Um. He 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:21.600 really described a lot of these situations back in the 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:25.760 nineteen nineties. Well, John Perry Barlow was a figure embellic 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:28.920 of you know, sort of symbolized the nine nineties where 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:32.640 everyone assumed that since tech was so different that we 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:34.960 didn't need the old rules. You could never really have 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:39.000 a tech monopoly. Everything was kind of in cyberspace, and 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:40.920 you know, we need to throw everything out the window. 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:44.280 And I think that approach led us to ignore some 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:48.400 of the more obvious anti competitive harms that we're starting 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:52.080 to appear allow allowed. We basically let the tech companies 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.040 have something of an immunity to the antitrust laws for 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.200 uh for a decade. And I think now we're reaching 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:01.760 a time of reckoning. So I have to wonder, you know, 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:05.320 at what point is bigness? Okay, right, so how do 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:10.000 you determine whether something is uh not too big or 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:11.640 too I mean, it's sort of it is it is. 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:14.400 It's an important point, especially in a global world, albeit 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:17.880 perhaps less so uh now than it was a year ago. Uh. 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:20.560 And and they're big companies globally that are going to 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:23.880 potentially knock others out of the out of the water 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:26.360 if they're not big enough and have economies of scale. Yeah. No, 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.040 I think that is definitely one of the hardest question. 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:30.760 And I don't think it's right to just say, well, 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:32.840 this company got big, so we better break them up 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:35.360 because they're they're big, even though I called the even 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:37.960 though I called the book the Curse of Bigness. On 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.960 the other hand, I think with the benefit of retrospect, 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:43.640 of retrospect, if you can see how important it is 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:47.760 to challenge companies that are no longer able even though 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:49.960 they're big, to compete on the merits, but have resorted 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:55.800 to increasing numbers of abusive anti competitive measures. Um. You know, 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:58.079 take IBM in the seventies, A T and T in 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:01.000 the eighties, there were huge companies, and thank goodness, I 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:03.120 think we challenged them and broke up a T and 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:08.839 T because they had become almost like a parasite on 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:10.600 the you know, they had started to block and control 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:13.760 so many lines of conduct that no entrepreneur could get started. 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:16.440 So when you have a part of the economy you 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:20.000 know that just has started to stagnate because of you 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:24.520 suspect a company that is immune to competition and has 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:26.800 began to suppress all its competitors. That's when it's time 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:29.080 for antitrust take action. How close do you think we 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:33.520 are to a dangerous tipping point with respect to how 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:36.680 big the biggest companies have gotten. I think we're there. 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:39.480 I think that we are in an unprecedented level of 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:42.120 concentration in the U. S. Economy. I think we've had 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:44.959 a decline in entrepreneurship and innovation, and I think we're 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:49.480 gonna begin to suffer seriously um from all kinds of 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.120 sectors becoming places that new companies just can't get started, 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:55.000 not to mention the effects on employees and suppressed wages. 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:58.360 So I think we're there. That's why I think there. 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:00.840 I think some of the populist political movements are actually 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:04.920 reflecting the concentration of the economy, reflecting a sense of 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:09.520 powerlessness among the middle classes, and um. The historic trends 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.679 all suggest that the moment has come to question whether 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:17.480 we've let the private sector become too concentrated and too unaccountable. 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:19.760 Thank you very much for being with us. Tim Wu 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:24.080 was professor of Law, Columbia Law School. He is also 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:27.040 the author of the new book entitled The Curse of 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:32.760 bigness Antitrust in the New guilded Age, And whatever your perspective, 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:36.400 it is worth reading because it enjoins the debate that 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:40.400 affects everybody's life and business. Tim will thank you very 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:45.840 much for being here Long Island City as one of 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:49.679 two new headquarters. And the big question has been how 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:52.640 much will this impact the commercial real estate market in 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:55.400 New York? Joining us now Leslie Wallman Himmel Co, Managing 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:59.120 partner of Himmel and marrying off properties focused on New 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.000 York realists eight. Thank you so much for being with us. 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:04.400 So let's just start there. I mean, do you think 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.600 that this is going to have a material positive impact 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:10.200 on commercial real estate prices both in Long Island City 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.319 as well as elsewhere in this in New York. First, well, 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:16.280 thank you for having me here. UM him all americoth 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:20.560 properties that we buy office buildings in Manhattan and the boroughs, 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.400 and we've had a partnership for thirty four years. We 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:28.120 purchased a full square block in and with the theory 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:31.160 being buying in emerging neighborhoods. People in this last week 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.920 have been saying, you were so smart. That's a long 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:38.240 time ago. Thirty Yes, it's it's a building at thirty 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:41.320 four two Queens Boulevard. And UM, I can't tell you 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:43.280 how many phone calls we've gotten saying you're just such 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:46.720 a you know how to buy an emerging neighborhood. Well, Amazon, 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:49.920 the Amazon effect is going to be a multiplier effect. 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:53.920 It's fantastic that they're gonna add jobs. And they picked 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:56.800 Long Island City. We've been thinking for the last three 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:01.040 decades as we've watched the area emerge but very slowly 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:06.080 compared to Jersey City, Hoboken, Brooklyn, that it should be developed. 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.040 Is so close to Manhattan. You go right across the 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:11.240 fifty Night Street Bridge, you go right through the tunnel. Um. 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:14.200 The big story here as you watch tech stocks are 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:17.800 going down, but the tech companies are expanding in New York. 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:20.040 New York is the greatest city in the world to 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:24.760 help build careers. Amazon, Google, Facebook, they're all growing in 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.760 New York. And it's definitely going to increase values in 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.400 Long Island City. But that's it should have happened a 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:33.800 long time ago. Now you have been part of I 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:36.920 don't know how it maybe fifty a hundred transactions at 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:41.160 least in New York, and I mean value over two 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:46.600 billion dollars. What are the rents gonna do in Long 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:49.319 Island City? Because I was looking at a report having 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:51.760 to do with rents in Seattle right to kind of 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:57.280 measure another city that is obviously went through the Amazon transformation. Uh, 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:01.400 last year, rents in downtown Sea, Seattle, we're about forty 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:05.400 two dollars per square foot. Now, if you go back 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.920 to two thousand and nine, I understand there's regular inflation 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:12.960 and so on, they were thirty one. So we've got about, 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.480 you know, a ten dollar increase per square foot. Do 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.800 you see that same magnitude of change coming to Long 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:23.720 Island City and indeed even to Crystal City in Washington 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.040 across the Potomac from Washington, where they're gonna put their 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:31.360 Northern Virginia headquarters. The simple answer is yes. This is 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:35.360 a simple supply and demand UH equation. When you have 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:40.280 an expansion of twenty five thousand workers and many residents 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:42.520 that are gonna be living there, you have the multiplier 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:45.160 effect that you're gonna have more people living there, more 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.600 people working there. UM we needed that. If you look 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.760 at the buildings I d C and Y Factory Felci 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:55.920 UH related has to properties Paragon Blanchard. It's been a 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.920 little quiet in the office market in the last eighteen months. 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:03.520 People bought an anticipation of being able to attract the 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:08.199 tammy tenants UM paying mid to high forties. That hasn't 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:11.680 really happened. Amazon coming to Long Island City is going 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.839 to help attract many other offices. UM. We bought a 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.839 property just to be granular a year ago in Long 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.640 Island City on the right over the bridge, thinking we 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:23.360 were going to make it into again a tammy you know, 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:27.080 tech advertising, media and internet building, and we decided it 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:30.320 was better to keep it as a hybrid between industrial 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:34.600 and office. UM. Reality is that's another emerging area that 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:39.680 last mild distribution. Many companies that no longer are retailing 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.520 or actually selling online, So that's going to be expansion 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:44.800 in the boroughs are going to be for sure fraught 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:48.000 with expansion in that narrow market as well. So when 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.280 I take the seven train out to Queens and I 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:53.400 go past this area, one thing that I see is 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:57.560 just cranes everywhere and lots of buildings going up. And 0:14:57.920 --> 0:14:59.640 you know a lot of people have said that there 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:03.040 has been an overbuilding. Uh to a certain degree. Does 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:06.840 this even it out? Oh? For sure? Um, I think 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:09.840 you know, not only on the residential You saw the 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.840 building is going up like mushrooms that we're just expanding, 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:16.480 and I think a lot of people got awful, awfully lucky. Um. 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:19.280 Although I do think that T. F. Cornerstone, who's going 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:22.400 to be developing a lot of the Amazon, they were 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:26.080 pioneers in buying all along the waterfront like fifteen years 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:30.080 ago and worked with the city to um develop it. Okay, 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.800 one other thing, infrastructure, right, I mean, how important is 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:36.680 it to improve the infrastructure, whether it's the subways, whether 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:38.640 their parks. I mean there really aren't that many parks 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:40.920 in Long Island City. There's the waterfront that's it. I mean, 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.560 how important are sort of these aspects that perhaps the 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:45.360 city won't have that much more money to pay for 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:47.480 because Amazon isn't paying them that because they're gonna a 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.600 tax break. Well, there's always the ferries. That would be 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.760 a great right across the right, but it hasn't necessarily 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:55.600 evolved yet to the point where it's as easy as 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:58.080 a subway. So what so how? I mean, how much 0:15:58.120 --> 0:15:59.800 do they have to develop that and who's gonna pay? 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.240 For sure? The infrastructure needs to be improved. Um, I 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:06.040 think though with all the residential buildings that are there, 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:07.480 you may have a lot of people who prefer to 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:09.520 walk to work. Um, those who are going to come 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:12.680 from Manhattan. You do have great subway access, and um, 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:16.520 you know, there's always uber. You bring up an interesting 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:18.720 point because there are going to be so many other 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:25.160 businesses that profit from having such a huge anchor in 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:28.320 the neighborhood. Right. We used to think of anchors as 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:32.280 being big department stores in malls, But now you're gonna 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:36.680 have all the ancillary services and products and companies that 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.760 are going to be supplying not only Amazon but the 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:43.400 people that work at Amazon. Does that mean that this 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:47.120 is going to be a much longer kind of increase 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:50.720 in real estate value? Well, clearly, if you walk around 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:55.040 Long Island City, there's very little retail, very little street retail. Um. 0:16:56.160 --> 0:17:00.360 I've spent a lot of time actually on weekends walking neighborhoods. 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:05.240 Surprisingly few restaurants, surprisingly few venues there. They're starting to 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.679 be that um more retails stores and you're gonna have 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:12.959 for sure restaurants, coffee shops, etcetera, all growing. It's like 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:15.560 you have in Brooklyn. So how much will the trickle 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.240 out effect be away from Long Island City to other 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:23.720 parts of the boroughs in Manhattan really wants to know 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:27.000 what's next, what's the next area that no one's discussed. 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:29.240 That's great, what's next, but also, you know, does this 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:31.920 sort of boost the whole market? I think the Bronx 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:34.760 is next sat An Island for last mile industrial, a 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:40.120 lot of companies that need online if you will, distribution centers. 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:42.600 That's going to be a huge expansion. And I think 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:44.560 I said the last time you guys interviewed me that 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:47.960 I think Midtown East is next. It's so out it's 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:54.080 got to come back in happen disclosure, So we're out. 0:17:55.920 --> 0:18:00.760 It's just about the perspective. Anything you want to offer 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.040 us in terms of Amazon anything. We should that real 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:06.200 estate investors should not get ahead of themselves when they 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.399 hear Amazon's going there. I think it's all good news 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.480 for New York. Um. And you know, we we all 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:15.280 have to be mindful though, not to get to euphoric 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.800 on news like this, because reality of numbers are numbers. Um. 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:22.600 You know New York City's interest rates are going up 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:25.120 and vacancy is around tem per cent here, So let's 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:28.119 not get ahead of ourselves. Um. The interest rates, I 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:30.720 know you did a story and that before, have a 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:33.840 huge impact on pricing. And uh, we're lucky. We we 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:36.840 financed all of our properties in the last few yearsentary 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:38.879 and a half percent rates and now we're looking at 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:41.840 five percent rates. So well wait until the check clearance. 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:45.760 I guess is a good A good motto. Leslie Wollman Himmel, 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.439 thank you very much, co managing partner Himmel and Marong 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:54.399 Golf Properties. Talking about Amazon dot Com they're coming to 0:18:55.119 --> 0:19:01.320 New York. Well, we want to learn more about the 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:05.199 decline in value of cryptocurrencies, and here to help us 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:09.520 do so is Leonel Laurent. He is our Bloomberg opinion columnist, 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:12.560 and he could knows everything about the world of bitcoin 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:17.480 and cryptocurrencies. Are joining us from our London bureau, and 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:21.520 of course you can follow Leonel on Twitter at Leonel R. A. 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:28.480 Laurent Alright, why is bitcoin below five thousand dollars right now? 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:33.920 It's down about three And this decline in cryptocurrency started 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:39.919 last week and it's continuing. It's like a thirteen month low. Why, well, hello, 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:41.600 and thank you for the intro. We said I knew 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.959 everything about bitcoin. I actually don't know it's it's it's value, 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.200 it's price. No one does. And you say the set 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.880 off began last week, maybe the most recent one did, 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:53.840 But the bigger picture is it began this whole set 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:56.360 off at the end of last year. This whole year 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.919 has just been one long, massive decline. And to an 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.399 understand why, we have to understand why it blew up 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:05.400 in the first place. And it blew up because essentially 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:10.200 it was sold as a new, great utopian, disruptive investment 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:12.640 that would take over the world of payments. It would 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:15.880 become the new gold. It would essentially you know, make 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:19.600 everybody rich, uh, and it would be you know, there 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:22.159 for the taking for a retail crowd. While all the 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:24.399 sort of fiddy duddy bankers would sit back and not 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:29.679 get it. And like most dreams, you know, myths, you know, 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:33.960 sales pitches, it hasn't come true, and it stopped coming true. 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:35.879 And that's what we're seeing right now. I'm happy to 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:37.800 go into all the various things that have happened recently, 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:40.119 all the news, the hard fork, the regulation, but for me, 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:43.040 the bigger picture is it was it was a loser, 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:45.760 a losing strategy to begin with. Well, let's dig in 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.680 a little bit to the regulatory or i should say, 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:52.520 the Justice Department probe into bitcoin in a number of 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:55.960 the cryptocurrencies. There was a story today talking about how 0:20:56.359 --> 0:21:00.600 prosecutors are homing in on a clutch of crypto currencies 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:05.680 that potentially they may be alleging work together to manipulate prices. 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:09.119 Last year a bit the incredible rally. How much is 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:13.800 that contributing to what we're seeing today. Well, honestly, I'm 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:16.640 not sure it should be, because this was again obvious 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.880 to us a year ago. It was obvious to us 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:24.520 earlier this year when cryptocurrencies like Ripple would be you know, 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:27.320 suddenly up you know, an incredible amount one day and 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:29.119 then quickly sold off the next when we saw there 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:32.040 were chat rooms where people would pump and dump small 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:34.560 and new tokens um. You know, the news is that 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:37.280 the regulators are actually waking up to this and getting involved, right, 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:39.240 So the news is they're actually going to spend resources 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:42.080 trying to work out what's happened. I think, you know 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:45.200 the fact that I'm looking at Tether, this kind of um, 0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:48.440 you know, coin that was supposedly redeemable for one real 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:52.600 dollar um and was therefore used as a dollar proxy 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:56.560 on markets to buy bitcoin. I mean, Tether still exist today, right, 0:21:56.640 --> 0:21:59.440 so perhaps what comes out of this has yet more 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:02.800 impact on today's market. But you know, as as a picture, 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:04.640 I mean again, you know, don't don't want to keep 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:07.320 on playing the same music. But you know, we we 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:09.840 who sort of were skeptical year ago that these were 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:13.600 real markets with real price discovery and with you know 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:18.400 how kind of put itself regulation being proven right, Well, 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:21.160 you can play the same music, just use a different instrumentally. 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:25.639 And all the question I have is that whenever I 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:29.520 asked someone to describe to me in detail, okay, what 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:34.080