Speaker 1: You can understand I love the UK to hat up
Speaker 1: and as it was system I do. I would like
Speaker 1: to somehow get that across because people think I'm latively.
Speaker 1: I'm really not. I'm just negative on not politicians.
Speaker 2: I'm David Merritt and I'm Francie Blackwall and this is
Speaker 2: in the City, Bloombog's podcast, connecting you to the conversations
Speaker 2: at the heart of the City of London.
Speaker 1: Dave.
Speaker 3: This week billionaire investor Guy Hans. He's a founder of
Speaker 3: private equity from Terra FIRMA.
Speaker 2: Yes, I was very excited to talk to Guy. He's
Speaker 2: been one of the most famous and high profile UK
Speaker 2: investors for decades and of course one of the most
Speaker 2: vocal critics of Brexit and pretty pessimistic about Britain. So
Speaker 2: I really wanted to dive into his views on Britain
Speaker 2: and the future, but also not just hearing moan about
Speaker 2: it all. Try to offer us some solutions, Francie, We.
Speaker 3: Try and challenge him to out what the possible solutions
Speaker 3: for him would be to put the UK back on track. Guy,
Speaker 3: welcome to the podcast. You've been one of the most
Speaker 3: bearish on the UK as far as I can remember,
Speaker 3: certainly since the Brexit vote, has that changed.
Speaker 1: No, it hasn't. That's actually was I was pretty bullish
Speaker 1: on the UK in twenty ten right through twenty twelve,
Speaker 1: but I was probably Yeah, I was very keen on
Speaker 1: an expansionist policy then rather than a very conservative strategy,
Speaker 1: and I probably remained against a Maverick and probably, you know,
Speaker 1: economically on the opposite side of the Conservative Party.
Speaker 2: Obviously we've had a lot of economic termilk, guy, and
Speaker 2: you've come out and criticized the government. You've criticized Brexit
Speaker 2: obviously extensively. Is there any signs of optimism now we've
Speaker 2: got a new administration trying to get things like an
Speaker 2: inflation under control. The turmoil of last auto is definitely
Speaker 2: in the past where you predicted possibly an IMF bailout
Speaker 2: for Britain. Are there any signs of positive outlook on
Speaker 2: the horizon?
Speaker 1: It's certainly a lot better than it was then. I mean,
Speaker 1: that was just a horrendous situation and it was quite
Speaker 1: quite clear by how long this trust survived that even
Speaker 1: the Conservative Party realized that her economic policies would be
Speaker 1: absolute disastrous and probably would have needed some form of bailout.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we were really running a huge
Speaker 1: risk of an incredible run on the pound. I think
Speaker 1: the slightly sad thing about list Trust and that time
Speaker 1: was that her argument that the UK needed to become
Speaker 1: much more productive on a global basis to be competitive
Speaker 1: was one hundred percent right. I don't think her idea
Speaker 1: about how you got it was right, which was really,
Speaker 1: you know, you flogged the people until they until they smile.
Speaker 1: But I do think her understand that the UK is
Speaker 1: in a really bad place was correct, and that she
Speaker 1: was basically putting forward back in twenty ten and it
Speaker 1: was pretty consistent. So I'm not quite sure when the
Speaker 1: Conservatives put her in as leader what they expected her
Speaker 1: to do, because what she did was what she said
Speaker 1: she was going to do. The issue in the UK
Speaker 1: has is how outside of Europe is it going to
Speaker 1: be competitive on a world stage, and how does it
Speaker 1: become competitive on a world stage when you have a
Speaker 1: population which is very very socialist in its inner core
Speaker 1: beliefs and how a society should run in terms of
Speaker 1: for example, fairness, national health service, etc. So you can't
Speaker 1: do a Singapore solution, which is what Liz Trust is
Speaker 1: trying to do, but you do need to do a
Speaker 1: solution which enables the country to be much much more competitive.
Speaker 3: Guy, what do you take issue with now? So first,
Speaker 3: you don't think the UK now needs an imfbilout.
Speaker 1: No, I think we're in a much more stablesition now
Speaker 1: that we were when as trust was there, much more stable.
Speaker 1: I think we're almost in sort of a situation with
Speaker 1: sort of geriatric decline. I look at the UK and
Speaker 1: see that two thousand and thirty Poland will be wealthier
Speaker 1: than we are. You know, that's sort of predicted, and
Speaker 1: I think that will happen. Twenty and forty will probably
Speaker 1: be the poor man in Europe if we go in
Speaker 1: the way we're going at the moment, all you can
Speaker 1: really see is is Britain just becoming poorer and poor
Speaker 1: on a relative basis to the rest of Europe. And
Speaker 1: that's very sad because we've had fifty years of the
Speaker 1: UK really competing and becoming much better economically than Europe.
Speaker 1: So it's sort of actually, I say forty years, so
Speaker 1: it's sort of reversal of what the that right generation,
Speaker 1: which is my generation, really experienced. We're very much back
Speaker 1: to the seventies at the moment.
Speaker 2: And you called it geriatric decline and that's you know,
Speaker 2: I guess the thing about geriatricric and is it's kind
Speaker 2: of irreversible, isn't it. I mean, do you see any
Speaker 2: chance of putting us out of this, out of the situation?
Speaker 2: And you mentioned Liz Trust's policies, and you know, we
Speaker 2: hear this a lot from people on the on the
Speaker 2: on the right side of politics or on CONSERTI party
Speaker 2: saying that, you know, she diagnosed the right problem, but
Speaker 2: the conundrum was the markets didn't like the solution. So
Speaker 2: was there anything else or is there anything else that
Speaker 2: she's soon at now in Downing Street can do to
Speaker 2: turbocharge the economy and pull us out of that geriatric decline.
Speaker 1: Yes, And I'm actually probably on the lift side of politics,
Speaker 1: right on the right, but I think I'm honest enough
Speaker 1: to say that, you know, if you look listen to Corbyn,
Speaker 1: Corbyn has some really some good ideas. Yes, some terrible
Speaker 1: ideas as well, but we had some good ones. And
Speaker 1: I think probably I'm much as a businessman and more
Speaker 1: of a prognosis than a politician. And therefore I sort
Speaker 1: of think you have to look at and say what
Speaker 1: is the problem. And the first issue we've got is
Speaker 1: we left Europe and that means we're competing on the
Speaker 1: world stage. How do we get ourselves in the position
Speaker 1: where we can compete on the world stage and what
Speaker 1: does that mean? I think rule of law consistency is
Speaker 1: really important, and the UK was used to be seen
Speaker 1: in a very consistent place with a very strong rule
Speaker 1: of law. I think a lot of the battles over
Speaker 1: Brexit exposed that the government was willing to change and
Speaker 1: do things which they felt within their best interests, regardless
Speaker 1: of what the law was saying. So I think that's
Speaker 1: the first thing we need to do to sort of
Speaker 1: give people confidence. There's been enormous amounts of change for
Speaker 1: political reasons over the last seven years, obviously stemming to
Speaker 1: some extent from the Brexit battle to the Conservative Party,
Speaker 1: and that for an investor is very very concerning and
Speaker 1: very very difficult to deal with. So get some stability,
Speaker 1: and I think Sunak actually is somebody who's probably pretty
Speaker 1: good at that. And if you like, that's sort of
Speaker 1: the housekeeping war stuff. We then need some exciting stuff.
Speaker 1: And I think the exciting stuff would be actually to say,
Speaker 1: look what out of you we can actually now take
Speaker 1: some radical approach to some of our rules, and I
Speaker 1: would start with the labor. Labor laws. Employment laws in
Speaker 1: the UK are extraordinarily complex, very litigious and very very difficulties.
Speaker 2: Aren't they a lot looser than Germany and France? They
Speaker 2: aren't they going? I mean, I think compared to many.
Speaker 1: You know, they're not. Actually they're absolutely not. It's a
Speaker 1: great myth. You know, I have businesses in Germany, our businesses,
Speaker 1: and Italy. I have businesses right across the Nordics. The
Speaker 1: UK is a nightmare in comparison with those other countries,
Speaker 1: an absolute nightmare.
Speaker 3: I'm a little bit confused. So you want the UK
Speaker 3: closer to the EU, but you also want the UK
Speaker 3: to have their own rules and break away completely from
Speaker 3: the U, like Singapore and theems that you can have both.
Speaker 1: Well, no, I don't think you can have both. But
Speaker 1: I don't think your Pe and you. There isn't a
Speaker 1: politician out there on any political party who was saying
Speaker 1: let's get back into Europe or even let's have a
Speaker 1: single market financially. None of them are saying that there
Speaker 1: was a vote. One third of the population voted in favor.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sorry this whole argument about democracy is,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like saying a third of the British
Speaker 1: people voted to leave Brexit, therefore what we said then
Speaker 1: is time stamped forever. I hate to say it, you know,
Speaker 1: but Hitler got a bigger vote in Germany than Brexit
Speaker 1: got in the UK. So I think using democracy in
Speaker 1: this way is a little bit. I think it's insulting
Speaker 1: to what democracy is about. Democracy is about representing everyone
Speaker 1: now and actually the majority of people did not vote
Speaker 1: for Brexit. Is it is a small not even a majority,
Speaker 1: it's a small minority voting for Brexit.
Speaker 2: Do you think that should be a political party who
Speaker 2: comes out more pro Europe? I mean, should get starmer.
Speaker 2: Some of the polls now are saying the major ority
Speaker 2: of people regret Brexit in the UK, and yet there's
Speaker 2: no politician in a leading party who's going to maybe
Speaker 2: apart from the SMP who are on a national level,
Speaker 2: who will take that position.
Speaker 1: Now, I have no question in my mind the Labor
Speaker 1: Party should should be supporting going back in or would
Speaker 1: least negotiating a single market solution. And there's nothing in
Speaker 1: the European labor laws or policies which the Labor Party
Speaker 1: would have a problem with.
Speaker 2: Would you vote Labor in that case? Guy? Because you've
Speaker 2: been a Tory donor and supporter, would you would you
Speaker 2: would you switch to Labor if they came out as
Speaker 2: a pro European, pro EU policy.
Speaker 1: Well, I've always said that if I had voted at
Speaker 1: the election with Corburn, I would have voted for Corburn,
Speaker 1: not because I necessarily politically support Corlan because I think
Speaker 1: he was the the least bad alternatment at the time,
Speaker 1: because I don't think he would have ended up with
Speaker 1: the Brexit we ended up with. I think we'd end
Speaker 1: up with much softer Brexit. Would I be in favor
Speaker 1: of Labor over the Conservatives if they were in favor
Speaker 1: of Europe, Yes, definitely. I mean, frankly, at the moment,
Speaker 1: I think we've only got we've got two choices. We've
Speaker 1: got a choice of dismantling a lot of what has
Speaker 1: the political parties have spent thirty years putting in place
Speaker 1: so that we can be competitive on a world stage,
Speaker 1: or we need to go back into Europe.
Speaker 3: Would you vote for Labor today or even become a
Speaker 3: Labor downer?
Speaker 1: Now? I left the UK some years ago and I
Speaker 1: think for me to go to the UK election probably
Speaker 1: be inappropriate, So I wouldn't would I support them vocally absolutely, And.
Speaker 2: That's because you think kir Starmer and Rachel Reeves would
Speaker 2: do a better job. I mean, putting the Europe question aside.
Speaker 2: We've seen Starma and Reeves really do a lot of
Speaker 2: outreach to the City of London to business and try
Speaker 2: to convince everybody that they would be better custodentcy, the economy,
Speaker 2: but also you know, thinking about the City of London
Speaker 2: now maybe reversing some of the decline we've seen in
Speaker 2: terms of business there. Do you think they have got
Speaker 2: the right proposals?
Speaker 1: I think they're probably marginally better than where the Conservative
Speaker 1: Party is. Do I think where they are today we
Speaker 1: make a radical difference. Not really. On the other hand,
Speaker 1: to be fair, you never really know what politicians are
Speaker 1: going to do until they're in power. As you say,
Speaker 1: they have spoken a good game. I think you know,
Speaker 1: one area where I think they are right is with
Speaker 1: regard to planning laws. But again that sort of follows
Speaker 1: my theme, which is if we want the UK to
Speaker 1: succeed outside of Europe, we have to reduce a lot
Speaker 1: of the bureaucracy that exists in the country, and planning
Speaker 1: is a big area regulation. You start to dismantle that
Speaker 1: and you can get the economy moving pretty quickly.
Speaker 3: It's not too late. The government can still do that.
Speaker 3: Do you just see them as distracted or just not
Speaker 3: wanting to help out the city of London.
Speaker 1: I think the Conservative Party is distracted. For the Conservative
Speaker 1: Party to be able to rule properly, it has somehow
Speaker 1: got to move on from this internal fight over Brexit
Speaker 1: and over Europe. And I think that means two things.
Speaker 1: Those who supported Brexit have to admit it hasn't worked
Speaker 1: out the way they meant it to and they failed
Speaker 1: to deliver what they said they would liver. And those
Speaker 1: who are remainers have to say, fine, you know we
Speaker 1: are out of Europe. Now we have to think about
Speaker 1: how do we get the country to move forward out
Speaker 1: of Europe. I think the Conservative Party losing the next election,
Speaker 1: which is actually certain, the questions how much they lose
Speaker 1: it by, I think would be a good wake up
Speaker 1: call for them. You know, I think they need to lose,
Speaker 1: spend a few years in the wilderness and rethink the agenda,
Speaker 1: because at the moment it's too dominated frankly by a
Speaker 1: battle which was fought back in the seventies.
Speaker 2: So assuming Keir Starmer wins and the election will have
Speaker 2: to come at some point next year, we have Rachel
Speaker 2: Reeves as the chancellor. We talk a lot on this
Speaker 2: podcast about the future of the City of London specifically,
Speaker 2: and we've seen, you know, the data is kind of
Speaker 2: starting to come in, isn't it in terms of the
Speaker 2: kind of the slow puncture it's sometimes called of jobs
Speaker 2: and capital and trading out of the City of London.
Speaker 2: How does it look from your perspective? Is that leaking
Speaker 2: of business real? And what is the future hold? Is that?
Speaker 2: Is the City of London in a kind of terminal tailspin.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's unfortunate, it's very real. And I think
Speaker 1: the problem that the politicians had probably the British public
Speaker 1: to a certain extmpent that's largely the politicians fault because
Speaker 1: they haven't told them is the City of London is
Speaker 1: vastly more than just financial institutions. It's also a county, firms,
Speaker 1: consultancy firms, advertising agencies, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1: And once you start to lose that center there's a
Speaker 1: massive businesses that will move apart. So even if you
Speaker 1: take for example, architects, you know, I would have used
Speaker 1: a London based architectural firm for some some of the
Speaker 1: architectural work I'm doing in other countries in Europe. Now
Speaker 1: out of Brexit, I'm not going to I'll use Italian
Speaker 1: architects and Swedish architects, and that's a chunk of money
Speaker 1: which will go to Europe and won't go to the UK.
Speaker 1: Law firms. I'm using European law firms because frankly, I
Speaker 1: don't trust what will happen if I have a contract
Speaker 1: which I want to use in Italy which is under
Speaker 1: English law. I'm not convinced that Italian judge will look
Speaker 1: very favorably on that. So I'm using Italian law out
Speaker 1: and English law to do do contracts in terms of
Speaker 1: where one's set up and one has one's holding company,
Speaker 1: you know, frankly, I feel I've got to have a
Speaker 1: European country for that holding company, and I think that's
Speaker 1: pretty typicult. So it's a slow puncher, but it's it's
Speaker 1: going to lead to a blowout at some point, and
Speaker 1: the only way you can change that is some free
Speaker 1: movement of business and people, and no political parties putting
Speaker 1: that forward at the moment. So I think without that change,
Speaker 1: we have to accept that the city of London will
Speaker 1: become less and less important. The only reason for the
Speaker 1: city of London to be beneficial to Europe in importance
Speaker 1: is if it's a global hub and you can benefit
Speaker 1: from it. Outside of Europe, they don't benefit from it,
Speaker 1: so they've got no real interest in London succeeding. In fact,
Speaker 1: they've got every interest in London not succeeding. So if
Speaker 1: you're sitting in Amsterdam, you want to have some of
Speaker 1: the business that existed in London. If you're sitting in Milan,
Speaker 1: you want to have the consultancy, the architecture, some of
Speaker 1: that business. And so pretty well, you know, if I'm
Speaker 1: sitting in any European city, I'm just looking at the moment,
Speaker 1: say how much of that business can I get from London?
Speaker 1: So that puncher will get worse. And as soon as
Speaker 1: it's feeling of weakness, and I think we're getting pretty
Speaker 1: close to that tipping point, you'll find people start moving
Speaker 1: very vaguanate.
Speaker 3: Okay, how much of that activity can actually be lost?
Speaker 3: I mean a lot of people are still emphasizing the
Speaker 3: breath and the depth of London capabilities, and you know,
Speaker 3: I wonder whether you're just being too pessimistic. There's still
Speaker 3: the rule of law, people still speak English, you have
Speaker 3: a great schooling system.
Speaker 1: I might question the schooling systems. I'm not sure. Anyway,
Speaker 1: we won't get into the data about English education. The
Speaker 1: rule of law in England has been questioned and continues
Speaker 1: to be questioned. We saw that the British government from
Speaker 1: you know, twenty sixteen onwards has been willing to do
Speaker 1: things which are right on the edge of law. And
Speaker 1: some people would say, and I don't think with an
Speaker 1: extreme exaggeration that actually the law in the UK is
Speaker 1: not what it used to be. And if you go
Speaker 1: and want to do law with some consistency, you might
Speaker 1: choose to do Sweedisch law speaking English. You know, most
Speaker 1: senior people in Europe speak English. And you talk about
Speaker 1: the breath. The problem with breadth rule is the second
Speaker 1: that breaks down, then what do you have? And people
Speaker 1: are leaving, very very top people are leaving, and they're
Speaker 1: leaving increasingly, and it's more and more expensive to get
Speaker 1: them here as well. You know what I have to
Speaker 1: pay to take a European to come to the UK.
Speaker 1: Now is a premium, whereas it used to be a discount.
Speaker 1: It used to be I want to come and work
Speaker 1: in London. Now I want a premium. And you know
Speaker 1: it's the same as you're not going to get And
Speaker 1: I know it's a bit of a joke, but you're
Speaker 1: not going to get your Polish plumbers back when they
Speaker 1: can earn more money in Poland and they feel they've
Speaker 1: got a better lifestyle. You're not going to get your
Speaker 1: French bankers back when they think they can have a
Speaker 1: better time in Paris.
Speaker 2: You mentioned Paris. We've talked about it a lot in
Speaker 2: this podcast. Is that the new financial coupital of the
Speaker 2: European Union? I mean, it seems like that's the place
Speaker 2: where the most jobs are being added. Where they seems,
Speaker 2: you know, the stock market has become the biggest by
Speaker 2: market value. Is that where the investment is flowing.
Speaker 1: It's funny because everybody does talk about Paris but actually
Speaker 1: see a broader business, not just a financial law. And
Speaker 1: that's why I mentioned Milan, and I mentioned Lisbon, and
Speaker 1: i'd mentioned Frankfurt, and i mentioned Amsterdam, and I'd actually
Speaker 1: mentioned Stockholm. I think the city of London is a
Speaker 1: lot more than just financial institutions, and you're seeing some
Speaker 1: of those move, you know, all across, all across Europe,
Speaker 1: not just a Paris is Paris the most aggressive. Yes,
Speaker 1: is there a risk that the French decide that they
Speaker 1: really want to wipe London out and say, fine, all
Speaker 1: business contracts in the Europe have to be done under
Speaker 1: European law or the local European law, or they try
Speaker 1: and introduce a European business law. I think that's that's
Speaker 1: a real risk. I mean, the French are without any
Speaker 1: question more anti the UK than other countries, and that's historically.
Speaker 1: I mean, it goes back years and years. I remember
Speaker 1: once speaking to a French prime minister about doing business
Speaker 1: in Trance and he was very blunly to go, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to say this publicly, but you know, we
Speaker 1: spit in your seep and he said, just don't do
Speaker 1: business in France. You need to understand we hate you.
Speaker 1: We hate you since Joan of Arc and you burnt
Speaker 1: up our votes in the Second World War. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was really venomous. And so I've always worked in
Speaker 1: the principle that the French don't really like us. The good
Speaker 1: news was.
Speaker 3: Really maybe not all French guys hate you gay.
Speaker 1: Well, not all French, but you know, but I think
Speaker 1: from a from a political point of view, they don't.
Speaker 1: You know. An ex English foreign farmist said, you know
Speaker 1: that the guidance that he was always given by his
Speaker 1: civil service was when looking at doing any form of
Speaker 1: negotiation in Europe regard to the EU, he was told,
Speaker 1: just take the opposite position to the French. You can't
Speaker 1: go wrong. And so I think, I hate to say it,
Speaker 1: but from a political class point of view, the French
Speaker 1: and the English have always had this battle and I
Speaker 1: don't think it. I don't think it's going to go away.
Speaker 1: The great thing about the EU was we had to
Speaker 1: work together with each other. I mean, it's amazing the
Speaker 1: Channel tunnel ended up ended up actually connecting in the middle.
Speaker 1: I've always found that that really quite extortedly.
Speaker 3: Maybe we do also speak to former presidents who actually
Speaker 3: love Britain. Of course, a bit of healthy competition, they
Speaker 3: would get business, would they? What the French not being
Speaker 3: more polite than the Bridge? Are they more than the
Speaker 3: Bridge army?
Speaker 1: The French are so charming.
Speaker 3: I no one's ever said that. On the podcast Before.
Speaker 1: The Bridge, we're just so ghost. We just know we
Speaker 1: don't look good. We don't know how to carry things off.
Speaker 1: The French can make a movie which lasts two hours
Speaker 1: and nothing happens and everybody thinks it's wonderful.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems so critical of the UK. You're also
Speaker 3: embroiled in a legal case with the UK government. Is
Speaker 3: there anything that politicians can do to win you over?
Speaker 1: Well, let me just say I think the British people
Speaker 1: in the British countryside is amazing, and I think the
Speaker 1: food and Britain, regardless of what the rest of the
Speaker 1: world says, is spectacular. So you know, I loved Writtain
Speaker 1: as a place and I love the people. I just
Speaker 1: have a problem with what the politicians have done over
Speaker 1: the last twenty years. I mean, you know, it's when
Speaker 1: I first went to the business I was told three rules.
Speaker 1: They're called shanks because the guy told me, you know,
Speaker 1: what goes up will come down, what goes down won't
Speaker 1: necessarily come back up. And the politicians at the end
Speaker 1: of the day were put all up. And I still
Speaker 1: basically think those are pretty good free things to remember.
Speaker 1: I think that UK was doing absolutely beautifully up until
Speaker 1: about two thousand and eight nine. We'd obviously had a
Speaker 1: credit crash, but we hadn't done that badly out of it.
Speaker 1: But since then I think the politicians have got it wrong.
Speaker 1: What can they tell do to make me feel good?
Speaker 1: Short term stability and a long term steady rolling back
Speaker 1: of the bureaucracy that exists in the country. And you
Speaker 1: can put those two together, I think you can actually succeed,
Speaker 1: plus some attempt to try and rebuild the relationship with France.
Speaker 1: And my view would be to try and do that
Speaker 1: one brick at a time, And I think the first brick,
Speaker 1: and the most important brick, is an agreement with regard
Speaker 1: to how London can fit into Europe, you know, as
Speaker 1: a financial center, and that that would take some give,
Speaker 1: quite a lot of give to get them back on
Speaker 1: the negotiation table to do that, particularly as the French
Speaker 1: clearly want to make Powis to take over from London.
Speaker 1: But I think that that triple pronged attack on where
Speaker 1: we're going, I think it's realistic and I think it's achievable,
Speaker 1: and I think a political party who set out and said, look,
Speaker 1: that's what we're going to do, you would have my support.
Speaker 1: Whether they can convince the rest of the population, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, you know, the reality is sadness
Speaker 1: about Brexit. As we're arguing over what Cornish farmers, like
Speaker 1: Cornish fishermen got, rather than arguing over what happened to
Speaker 1: the city of London. It was just kafcoes. Quite bizarre. Frankly,
Speaker 1: go Hands.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Thank you, thanks for listening to
Speaker 2: this week's in the City. We'll be back next week.
Speaker 3: But in the meantime, if you like our show, please
Speaker 3: head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen
Speaker 3: to podcasts and rate, review and subscribe.
Speaker 2: This episode was hosted by Me.
Speaker 3: David Merritt and Me Francis Laqua.
Speaker 2: It was produced by Sasadi and Moses.
Speaker 3: And additional editing by Blake Maples.
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Guy Hands.