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Speaker 2: Today we're going inside the Ropes on Brian Kelly's departure
Speaker 2: from Notre Dame and on the promotion of Marcus Freeman
Speaker 2: to be the next head football coach of the Irish.
Speaker 2: I'm going to do that with our friend Pete Samson,
Speaker 2: longtime friend of the podcast from the Athletic. He had
Speaker 2: much of the early reporting on this story and he's
Speaker 2: warming up in the bullpen. Now we're going to talk
Speaker 2: about timelines, what went down behind the scenes, what happens next,
Speaker 2: all the good stuff. As I said, Dan's going to
Speaker 2: be back next week. So without further ado, let's just
Speaker 2: jump right in. Alrighty, we are privileged to welcome back
Speaker 2: to the show longtime friend of the Solid Verbal from
Speaker 2: the Athletic, mister Pete Samson, Sir, how are you recovering?
Speaker 1: Definitely recovering, That's how I am doing right now.
Speaker 2: So I went back through our text thread from a
Speaker 2: week ago and I was out walking the dog. It
Speaker 2: was Monday the twenty ninth, it was five thirty two
Speaker 2: Eastern time, and that's when I saw your tweet come
Speaker 2: across that LSU was making Brian Kelly its top target.
Speaker 2: And it was in that moment where I almost forgot
Speaker 2: to clutch the leash of the dog and I was
Speaker 2: a little worried she'd run away with a quick movement,
Speaker 2: because I was really taken aback by that. I was stunned,
Speaker 2: not at the notion that somebody would be interested in
Speaker 2: Brian Kelly, but just that it seemed like it came
Speaker 2: out of left field. And I texted with you at
Speaker 2: the time, and I got the sense that you were
Speaker 2: in a similar place where you got it. But at
Speaker 2: the same time, is this a joke? Should we take
Speaker 2: this seriously? And you didn't think it was going to
Speaker 2: happen either until it actually did. Walk me through what
Speaker 2: you're thinking when you find out through sources or otherwise
Speaker 2: that this is a thing. How do you like place
Speaker 2: this inside your head? As is this a real threat?
Speaker 2: Is this not a real threat?
Speaker 1: So Monday afternoon is sort of unfolding. I made the
Speaker 1: brilliant decision to stay on the West Coast for a
Speaker 1: couple of days of vacation after the Stanford game because
Speaker 1: nothing was going to happen with under in football. And
Speaker 1: I'm actually getting my eight year old in and out
Speaker 1: and Bruce Feldman calls me while we're in the drive
Speaker 1: through line and we start talking and that at that
Speaker 1: point it was sort of on. But I was I
Speaker 1: was more of the Okay, this is a game of chicken,
Speaker 1: and they're both going to pull up at the last
Speaker 1: moment and figure out a way to sort of keep
Speaker 1: keep the good times rolling, so to speak. But then
Speaker 1: when I started calling sources around Notre Dame sort of
Speaker 1: at like not above the athletic department, like administration level,
Speaker 1: so like, is this happening beyond just like, you know,
Speaker 1: can we get a new facility built? You know, can
Speaker 1: we get a new contract in? And when you hear
Speaker 1: that the people who make the decisions at Notre Dame
Speaker 1: are worried about this, that they're having discussions with Brian
Speaker 1: Kelly and they're strategizing like all right, is this a
Speaker 1: situation where you just want a new challenge and in
Speaker 1: that case we wish you well, Or is this situation
Speaker 1: where you want more money, Well we can make that work. Facilities,
Speaker 1: we can make that work. But as soon as I
Speaker 1: knew that Notre Dame was having the conversations at that
Speaker 1: level with the perspective of like this is real, well
Speaker 1: then it was real. Then it stopped being a sort
Speaker 1: of a trace Armstrong agent move and started being like, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is happening. It might not happen today, but like
Speaker 1: everyone is, we're on the path to Brian Kelly being
Speaker 1: the next LSU head coach at a moment when man,
Speaker 1: I did not think that was how that day was
Speaker 1: going to go at all.
Speaker 2: And it escalated quickly. It happened very quickly, So the
Speaker 2: rumors came out and I don't know the exact timing,
Speaker 2: but I want to say within a couple hours later,
Speaker 2: I think it was Pete Thammel, maybe it was somebody else.
Speaker 1: Yep, now it's Pete.
Speaker 2: Within a matter of hours, it was like, Yeah, this
Speaker 2: thing's going to happen, and it just it happened so quickly.
Speaker 2: I think that's really been one of the themes of this
Speaker 2: coaching carousel. We saw it with Lincoln Riley, we saw
Speaker 2: it with Brian Kelly, these really quick movements almost without
Speaker 2: any warning.
Speaker 1: That was that was surprising to me because there really
Speaker 1: was no back and forth between Brian Kelly and Notre
Speaker 1: Dame at that point, which I think just sort of
Speaker 1: speaks to the relationship or lack of one between him
Speaker 1: and Jack Swarbrick, Like if you don't have a strong relationship,
Speaker 1: then you you're not going to go to that person
Speaker 1: and be like, hey, you know, let's talk. I really
Speaker 1: would like to stay Like you're gonna be like no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: this guy's going to pay me one hundred million dollars
Speaker 1: over ten years, Like I'm going to make that move.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it was quick. I think that you saw
Speaker 1: saw how Notre Dame players took that when Brian Kelly
Speaker 1: put out my love is limitless message in the sort
Speaker 1: of team chat that night and then came back for
Speaker 1: his farewell on Tuesday morning. So it was quick, and
Speaker 1: I mean Notre Dame was already talking to Marcus Freeman
Speaker 1: about should you be the next head coach that Monday night.
Speaker 1: That conversation was already happening before Brian Kelly told the
Speaker 1: team that he's no longer their head coach.
Speaker 2: I want to come back to that, but you mentioned
Speaker 2: the Swarbrick Kelly relationship. Swarbrick in his press conference after
Speaker 2: the fact, indicated that he saw signs. He called it
Speaker 2: restlessness after working with somebody for a decade plus. What
Speaker 2: was their relationship like? Because I think both of them
Speaker 2: referred to their quote unquote friendship. They obviously were close
Speaker 2: professional associates, but it did get it did give the
Speaker 2: impression that Swarbricks saw this coming from like a mile away.
Speaker 1: I think that Swarbricks saw the potential for it at
Speaker 1: some point, But to say that he anticipated this happening
Speaker 1: in this way on this timeline, I think is a reach. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, their relationship, I think it's been good for
Speaker 1: the most part, but I you know, we had reported
Speaker 1: this out on the Athletic, like Trace Armstrong, Brian Kelly's
Speaker 1: agent had been pushing for a meeting with Notre Dame
Speaker 1: post mel Tucker contract to talk about facilities, talk about
Speaker 1: conversation like repeatedly, almost daily. That meeting never happened. So
Speaker 1: and that started about a week before the decision to leave.
Speaker 1: So it's, you know, where their telltale signs. It's almost
Speaker 1: like you sort of reverse engineer it to find those
Speaker 1: signs after the fact. But I don't think as things
Speaker 1: are unfolding that anyone around Notre Dame would say, oh, yep,
Speaker 1: we saw this coming. You know, there was always a
Speaker 1: danger of this. You know, Brian kelly leaving doesn't shock me,
Speaker 1: sort of in a vacuum, but the way he left
Speaker 1: and where he left too, is really kind of a stunner.
Speaker 2: The facilities thing is that real? Is that an excuse
Speaker 2: at a place like Notre Dame because they're not playing
Speaker 2: on gravel?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, Like they've put serious investment into an indoor
Speaker 2: facility and otherwise around Notre Dame. Like I get that,
Speaker 2: there's a conversation you're always trying to make things better.
Speaker 2: It does feel like we've gotten to the point, at
Speaker 2: least at some programs where coaches are able to use
Speaker 2: that as an excuse like, hey, they wouldn't upgrade the facilities.
Speaker 2: Now I got to go elsewhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not a situation where I mean you see
Speaker 1: this other places where coaches will be like, yeah, we
Speaker 1: don't even have an indoor facility, Like Notre Am has
Speaker 1: a really nice indoor facility, it's like about three years old.
Speaker 1: What they don't have is sort of the training table
Speaker 1: functionality that the teams that are winning in the playoff have.
Speaker 1: They don't have I think the mental performance space Brian
Speaker 1: Kelly thought that they should have. So there's the you know,
Speaker 1: so facilities investment is necessary, but it's not like their
Speaker 1: weight room is a YMCA. They they have good facilities,
Speaker 1: do they have like the best facilities in the country. No,
Speaker 1: nor is nor do I think Brian Kelly's facilities argument
Speaker 1: is like, why don't we have a slide in our
Speaker 1: in our lobby like Clemson, Why don't we have a
Speaker 1: putt putt golf course? Why don't we have a barber shop?
Speaker 1: Like those are pods like at LSU, Yeah, right, like
Speaker 1: sleep pods. I mean they had float tanks up here.
Speaker 1: So if it has a functional element like Notre Dame
Speaker 1: is down for that, they want to do that, or
Speaker 1: Brian Kelly wanted to do that, the whiz bang bells
Speaker 1: and whistles like Notre Dame knows that is all kind
Speaker 1: of a show and that's not really why you're coming
Speaker 1: to Notre Dame in the first place.
Speaker 2: So let's talk back through this timeline. Then you say
Speaker 2: Monday already they're talked to Freeman. Was he the top
Speaker 2: target because there was that slip up, whether it was
Speaker 2: just an inference by Brian Kelly or an indicator of
Speaker 2: something maybe that he knew, I you know, no one
Speaker 2: really knew where to place that, but was freaming the
Speaker 2: top target interview.
Speaker 1: I don't know if he was, like in a universal sense,
Speaker 1: because look, if if Cincinnati was not in the playoff,
Speaker 1: then I think probably Luke Fickle is your top target.
Speaker 1: But look, Cincinnati's in the playoffs, so he's he's not
Speaker 1: available because there's a there's a world in college football
Speaker 1: where coaches don't leave playoff contenders right before the playoff.
Speaker 1: You know, Luke Fickle lives in that world. So it's
Speaker 1: you know, if Luke Fickle was available, this is probably
Speaker 1: a different conversation. But I mean, Matt Campbell was one
Speaker 1: hundred percent available. Matt Campbell would have taken this shot.
Speaker 1: But I don't think Notarame really pursued that in any capacity.
Speaker 1: And when you talk about sort of the speed of everything,
Speaker 1: with the speed of the departures of the hire was
Speaker 1: also a bit shocking because you go, you're all in
Speaker 1: on a thirty five year old, first time head coach
Speaker 1: in a matter of forty eight hours, seventy two hours.
Speaker 1: You know, there was a social media campaign from Notre
Speaker 1: Dame's roster. There was a bit of a social media
Speaker 1: campaign from Notre Dame's commitments. You know, I don't think
Speaker 1: you want to have teenagers make your most important higher
Speaker 1: but that was part of it. But I think ultimately
Speaker 1: what got Freeman over the line is like when everything
Speaker 1: hit the fan, the people who make the decisions at
Speaker 1: Notre Dame, like the people who are advising Jack Swarbrook,
Speaker 1: were already in on Freeman. It's not like Freeman had
Speaker 1: to go and build a relationship with a big time donor.
Speaker 1: You know. Basically, the class of people at Notre Dame
Speaker 1: whose names are on buildings, they already liked Marcus Freeman
Speaker 1: as their next as the next head coach here the
Speaker 1: minute Brian Kelly departed, so that that I think was
Speaker 1: sort of critical on how quickly this all was.
Speaker 2: Why do you think they were so in on Freeman?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, if you watched his press conference, he
Speaker 1: watched the video of him coming into the locker room,
Speaker 1: That's that's who he is. I mean, it's not a show.
Speaker 1: So if you spend time around Freeman, that's what you get.
Speaker 1: He's just such a dynamic com communicator and it's like
Speaker 1: one of those guys there. I think it's very it's rare.
Speaker 1: It's difficult for coaches to sort of manage up and
Speaker 1: manage down, like the ability to get into a living
Speaker 1: room with a seventeen year old linebacker from South Carolina
Speaker 1: but also talk to a fortune five hundred CEO with
Speaker 1: sort of equal dexterity is rare. I think it's even
Speaker 1: rarer that you can do that without it seeming like
Speaker 1: a show as you don't. It doesn't come across with
Speaker 1: Marcus Freeman as an act or that he's trying to
Speaker 1: sort of move between audiences. He just does. So I
Speaker 1: think that that is to me, the biggest part of
Speaker 1: the whole thing with him. You know, I've written a
Speaker 1: bunch of times just the authenticity really comes through. And
Speaker 1: that's not just with players, it's with trustees, it's with CEOs,
Speaker 1: you know, certain with players and their parents. So that
Speaker 1: I think you just added up. That's that's where you
Speaker 1: kind of get the kind of the full package.
Speaker 2: Well, and you've written a lot about the new energy
Speaker 2: at Notre Dame, and my sense is it's that authenticity
Speaker 2: that is really what's coming across.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I asked Mama, h my mom, Notre Dame enthusiasts before
Speaker 2: I did this with you, do you have any questions
Speaker 2: for Pete? And she said, yeah, ask him why Brian
Speaker 2: Kelly's such a dick. So I'm not going to phrase
Speaker 2: it like that, thank you, but I have found very
Speaker 2: interesting over the last decade plus with Brian Kelly. I'm
Speaker 2: interested in his character arc because he's a guy who
Speaker 2: has been wildly successful. Everywhere he's been, He's been I
Speaker 2: think universe perversally spoken of from people who have dealt
Speaker 2: with him as generically a nice guy, but yet universally
Speaker 2: around college football, outside of a couple little tribes, he's
Speaker 2: sort of viewed as the villain. And I've always tried
Speaker 2: to figure out why is that? And then the accent happened,
Speaker 2: and that's why. You know, the accent's goofy, and of
Speaker 2: course it's meaningless and we're all gonna make jokes about it.
Speaker 2: But that's why the accent is actually kind of important
Speaker 2: because I think what I get from the accent is, aha,
Speaker 2: Brian Kelly might be fake nice, and that's why people
Speaker 2: don't connect with him in the same way they do
Speaker 2: Marcus Freeman. That's why the energy feels different. You don't
Speaker 2: have to like go through all of that, peete, But
Speaker 2: do you get that same sense that that authenticity is
Speaker 2: something that was lacking at Notre Dame.
Speaker 1: I do I think that. I mean, we always describe
Speaker 1: Brian Kelly as a Boston politician, because that he grew
Speaker 1: up in that in that world, and that served him
Speaker 1: incredibly well at Notre Dame. Oh yeah, that's why he
Speaker 1: made it twelve years here through like legitimate tragedy early
Speaker 1: on he was able to sort of get to the
Speaker 1: other side of that. But in the same way that
Speaker 1: when you talk to Marcus Freeman and it is authentic
Speaker 1: and natural and you don't feel like he's straining or
Speaker 1: trying to connect with you. Brian Kelly turned that on
Speaker 1: and off. With Marcus Freeman. There's there's not a switch,
Speaker 1: it's just like who he is. So that part of it,
Speaker 1: I think is real. That that is part of the energy.
Speaker 1: And I mean, look, you got twenty five years younger
Speaker 1: with your head coach. You got cool at Notre Dame
Speaker 1: with your new head coach, Like these are new worlds
Speaker 1: for Notre Dame all of a sudden. I mean you
Speaker 1: think about the three head coaches before him, Well, let's
Speaker 1: go for like Bob Davey, Tyrone Willingham, Charlie Weiss, Brian Kelly.
Speaker 1: What was cool, young, hip, energetic or authentic about any
Speaker 1: of them? Like nothing? And so you're like Marcus Freeman,
Speaker 1: I think for the Nurian fan base. You might as
Speaker 1: well be glowing when he's on the podium at his
Speaker 1: press conference, because it just it suddenly makes things feel
Speaker 1: like possible and optimistic at a place that I think
Speaker 1: has sometimes been over backwards to tell you how hard
Speaker 1: it is to win here. Now you have a head
Speaker 1: coach who is not just leaning into that, but like
Speaker 1: you feel like, okay, well this is this is the
Speaker 1: guy that maybe can actually climb that mountain.
Speaker 2: It was a complete rebranding in like seventy two hours.
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely wild. I mean I see like the family
Speaker 1: photo that they've shot at Midfield of him and Joanna
Speaker 1: and the six kids, and you're like, holy crap, like
Speaker 1: this this family is They're just like sparkling here, like
Speaker 1: this is a Christmas card all of a sudden at
Speaker 1: Notre Dame. And yeah, he's onder because he hasn't lost
Speaker 1: a game, but I hasn't won one either, But it
Speaker 1: just is it's just this new energy that you feel
Speaker 1: around from the NOTEM fan base, and like you, being
Speaker 1: an notarime fan, can relate to this, Like when is
Speaker 1: the last time the RAM fan base was united on anything? Well,
Speaker 1: I think they're pretty much united on.
Speaker 2: This one well, and even Notre Dame haters. Pete right,
Speaker 2: I was getting text messages from Penn State fans, from
Speaker 2: USC fans, people that are very close friends, who have
Speaker 2: never once rooted for Notre Dame, saying I hope Notre
Speaker 2: Dame makes the playoff? What year is this?
Speaker 1: How did this happen so quickly? America's team?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I made the joke. Maybe that's Brian Kelly's lasting
Speaker 2: achievement Notre Dame, not building the program back to a
Speaker 2: point of stability, but building them to a point of
Speaker 2: likability now in absentia.
Speaker 1: It's pretty wild that you you hear that nationally from
Speaker 1: fans of other schools, you know, even I think even
Speaker 1: people who don't it's not even just people who like
Speaker 1: or dislike Notre Dame. I think it's people who are
Speaker 1: like casually invested in college football, don't really know anything
Speaker 1: about it, and then they see Marcus Freeman like all right,
Speaker 1: like I can get behind that guy, like oh man,
Speaker 1: look at a video of him in the locker room.
Speaker 1: Like it just I think it gets to people who
Speaker 1: are outside of like the tribal nature of college football
Speaker 1: fandom in a way that Notre Dame just doesn't, and
Speaker 1: most schools don't, but Marcus Freeman. That's I mean, I
Speaker 1: think that's part of the authenticity really coming through. People
Speaker 1: gravitate towards that.
Speaker 2: Well, nobody likes the guy who chases the bag, and
Speaker 2: they dislike that character more than they would otherwise dislike
Speaker 2: Notre Dame. And so it was just an incredible turn
Speaker 2: of phrase in a very short period of time. I'm
Speaker 2: getting these text messages. You've got to be kidding me, like,
Speaker 2: how did we arrive here? Anyway? That's neither here nor there.
Speaker 2: Let's go back to the Freeman timeline. So you say
Speaker 2: they start the conversation on Monday in earnest trying to
Speaker 2: gauge his interest. Were there any other names like Fickle
Speaker 2: as you said, probably not available because he's not going
Speaker 2: to leave in the middle of a playoff run. Matt
Speaker 2: Campbell available, maybe not under a serious consideration. Who else
Speaker 2: was actually a candidate for this thing outside of Freeman?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I think Pat forty s I reported that
Speaker 1: there were eight sort of candidates, Like if you just
Speaker 1: had a board, you'd have eight names on it, and
Speaker 1: then they quickly crossed off I think five or six
Speaker 1: of them. So I think you got down to Fickle
Speaker 1: and Freeman quickly. Like my sources indicate that Campbell was
Speaker 1: never seriously approached for it, So I don't believe there
Speaker 1: was another formal interview the best I can tell, So
Speaker 1: it was they quickly got to Marcus Freeman, which you
Speaker 1: kind of have to do in seventy two hours, right,
Speaker 1: you know. Jack Swarbrick said, like Freeman was the only
Speaker 1: non sitting head coach who was a candidate, which I
Speaker 1: think sort of speaks to where Notre Dame is as
Speaker 1: a program today versus when Brian Kelly showed up, uh,
Speaker 1: Tuesday night, Tommy Reese flew back from California to sort
Speaker 1: of interview for the OC job, or not interview for it,
Speaker 1: but like talk to Swarbrick about like, all right, where
Speaker 1: do you want what do you want to do? Where
Speaker 1: do you want this to go? You know, he wanted
Speaker 1: to stay. Brian Kelly was throwing a ton of money
Speaker 1: at him to come to l s U No name.
Speaker 1: I think, to my surprise, personally basically matched that. And
Speaker 1: so that stays the strength coach Matt Bayless stays. And
Speaker 1: at that point, I mean my understanding talking to sources is.
Speaker 1: Once you had Bayless and Reese locked up on Tuesday,
Speaker 1: then Freeman became a much better candidate because what do
Speaker 1: you what do you want a first time head coach
Speaker 1: who's on defense not to have to worry about what
Speaker 1: offense am I running? Well, okay, you have Tommy Reese here,
Speaker 1: who who I for? How much? I think people sort
Speaker 1: of give him crap? Is very popular in the locker room,
Speaker 1: and I do think he has a ton of sort
Speaker 1: of of play calling ability and smarts, and I think
Speaker 1: he's just sort of a rising star in the industry.
Speaker 1: Matt Bayless, incredibly popular with the locker room, has been
Speaker 1: one of the biggest architects of the turnaround. After twenty sixteen,
Speaker 1: he shows up after that season suddenly notre name is
Speaker 1: good again, So that I think once you took those
Speaker 1: off the table, then Marcus Freeman as a candidate, it
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, well he's the first time head coach,
Speaker 1: but string program's in a good shape and we know
Speaker 1: what offense were running, so what about this guy? And
Speaker 1: then he interviews with Jack Swarbrick on Wednesday. At that point,
Speaker 1: Freeman sort of goes underground for about twenty four hours
Speaker 1: while they're doing background checks and figuring out, you know,
Speaker 1: you're avoiding the Georgia Leary Part two situation, and then
Speaker 1: Friday morning he emerges in the locker room. So it
Speaker 1: was I think, but basically by Wednesday night or Thursday warning,
Speaker 1: I believe that's when they sort of knew it was
Speaker 1: going to be him, and then they just had to
Speaker 1: check a ton of boxes until Friday morning.
Speaker 2: So they get Reese and the strength coach in place
Speaker 2: before they get Freeman, which by the way, is not
Speaker 2: terribly uncommon among first time ahead football coaches. You hear
Speaker 2: about that all the time, where the administration has more
Speaker 2: of an active hand in setting the staff that will
Speaker 2: be around the head guy. I don't know if I
Speaker 2: remember hearing that at Notre Dame, though, Like it's usually
Speaker 2: the guy coming in is the one who's going to
Speaker 2: set precedent. He's going to be the one who sets
Speaker 2: his system and you know, dots all the ey's and
Speaker 2: crosses the t's. Do you get the sense that Freeman
Speaker 2: was I guess more attracted to that type of situation
Speaker 2: where he had that stability or he was sort of
Speaker 2: given like no choice, like this is the way it's
Speaker 2: going to be. We want these guys either take it
Speaker 2: or leave it.
Speaker 1: More the former than the ladder.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: But I don't think Freeman had any sort of like, well,
Speaker 1: I want to run a four wide vertical offense and
Speaker 1: if I can't do that, then I'm going to go
Speaker 1: be the head coach at Miami. Like I don't think
Speaker 1: that was ever sort of his vibe. So he gets
Speaker 1: along with Reese. Reese gets along with him. They have
Speaker 1: a good professional relationship. I think they have a good
Speaker 1: personal relationship from what I can gather talking to people
Speaker 1: over at Notre Dame. So there was no sort of
Speaker 1: hesitancy about like, well, I have some very strong ideas
Speaker 1: of what I want to do offensively, you know. I
Speaker 1: think they want to stick with the offense that they're
Speaker 1: running that actually, you know, accentuates the personnel that they have.
Speaker 1: So I think it just removed a huge question from
Speaker 1: Freeman's plate. But it also removed a huge question from
Speaker 1: Notre Dame about Freeman because they had Reese ready to.
Speaker 2: Go because of all this. Do you get any sense
Speaker 2: that they're relieved they're not in the playoff?
Speaker 1: No, don't, I don't you know? Are they are they
Speaker 1: gonna certainly they're not gonna say that out loud, but
Speaker 1: it would have been incredible to see that America's team
Speaker 1: happen for Notre Dame, you know, if they're going up
Speaker 1: against Michigan or Georgia or whoever. But I would say,
Speaker 1: I it's not the worst thing in the world that
Speaker 1: Marcus Freeman's coaching debut is not against Kirby Smart or
Speaker 1: Jim Harbaugh, so that you know, they go against a
Speaker 1: team that's losing its defensive coordinator Ohio State, you know,
Speaker 1: I think a team that they're favored in and as
Speaker 1: you know, like when Noram ends up in these major bowls,
Speaker 1: they're running into JaMarcus Russell or Ezekiel Elliott or Joey
Speaker 1: Bosa or Santonio Holmes and Ted Ginn like Oklahoma State
Speaker 1: is not that. So it's it's a good chance for
Speaker 1: for Noraim to go out in a major bowl game
Speaker 1: where they're favored, which they have not been favored in
Speaker 1: a long long time.
Speaker 2: Do we know what Marcus Freeman's getting paid.
Speaker 1: We do not. I believe it is. I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's around where Kelly was making, but we never
Speaker 1: knew what Kelly was making either you know, I think
Speaker 1: the assumption with Kelly was sort of seven to eight million.
Speaker 1: I would be shocked if Notre Dame went above that
Speaker 1: for our first time head coach. But based on my
Speaker 1: understanding of Reese being the highest paid coordinator of Notre
Speaker 1: Dame history, I think that Notre Dame sort of saw
Speaker 1: this as like, all right, you know, these are our guys.
Speaker 1: We're going to invest in them, We're going to back them.
Speaker 1: So I don't think it's a situation at all where
Speaker 1: Notre Dame was like, well, we can save a few
Speaker 1: bucks on Marcus Freeman. You know, I think they were
Speaker 1: all in on backing him financially.
Speaker 2: What changes from this point forward? Maybe there's a different energy.
Speaker 2: We know that recruiting has I think continued on on
Speaker 2: a very good trajectory. There haven't been a ton of
Speaker 2: flips or decommits anything like transfers, right, I mean, everybody
Speaker 2: seems pretty much in lockstep with the move. They like
Speaker 2: Marcus Freeman. The video is definitely indicative of how the
Speaker 2: team feels with this move.
Speaker 1: They like him.
Speaker 2: There will be tweaks, though, and I'm wondering if you've
Speaker 2: got any sense for what those tweaks might look like
Speaker 2: because probably not in the short term. You know, it's
Speaker 2: going to look like business as usual when they play
Speaker 2: in the Fiesta Bowl against Oklahoma State. But it's a
Speaker 2: tough schedule next year, as you know, I mean there's
Speaker 2: five very losable games on that schedule next season. What
Speaker 2: kinds of nuances or small tweaks do you think we
Speaker 2: can expect to see maybe before next season?
Speaker 1: Who calls the plays defensively will be fascinating to me
Speaker 1: because I think that Freeman had a slow start to
Speaker 1: the year that then got very hot as a defensive
Speaker 1: play caller here. Certainly his track record Cincinnati is what
Speaker 1: it is, but he didn't have autonomy at Cincinnati. Running
Speaker 1: the defense is Luke fickle and then Marcus Freeman called
Speaker 1: the defense, you know, similar to what Reese and Kelly
Speaker 1: were like here. You know, Reese ran the offense, but
Speaker 1: Kelly had oversight of it. So, you know, does Freeman
Speaker 1: have enough time in the day to be the lead
Speaker 1: recruiter on every prospect that no names? After which he
Speaker 1: said that he would I take him at his word.
Speaker 1: Only hesitancy is there's like, there's only twenty four hours
Speaker 1: in the day here, So how he runs that will
Speaker 1: be interesting. You know, Can Notre Dame get the facility
Speaker 1: upgrade that Brian Kelly wanted built in the next couple
Speaker 1: of years. I believe that they will. But in terms
Speaker 1: of the day, the day to day, you know, Freeman
Speaker 1: has said it multiple times, and I'll be interested to
Speaker 1: sort of dig deeper with him when I get a
Speaker 1: chance to sit down with him. It's like, you say,
Speaker 1: nothing's changing, but you want to enhance, Like, well, you know,
Speaker 1: enhancement is a change, right, So.
Speaker 2: Is that.
Speaker 1: Facilities? Is that how you manage the player's time. Is
Speaker 1: that Notre Dame's ability to take undergraduate transfers more seamlessly
Speaker 1: than they can which is not something that they've done.
Speaker 1: I don't really know, And I do think you look
Speaker 1: at Notre Dame and think, all right, how the program
Speaker 1: is running day to day? You you do not want
Speaker 1: to change a whole lot. They've won forty two straight
Speaker 1: games against unranked teams. They're aknown commodity every Saturday, whether
Speaker 1: fifty four wins over the last five years, to the
Speaker 1: playoff twice. Like the question to me is like what
Speaker 1: needs to recruiting needs to change? That's that's if Notre
Speaker 1: Dame is going to climb the mountain. They're going to
Speaker 1: do it through recruiting. I don't think there's any whiz
Speaker 1: bang operational changes Notre Dame is going to make that's
Speaker 1: going to affect the program in a serious way other
Speaker 1: than how do you figure out how to get better
Speaker 1: talent coming in the door? How do you get two
Speaker 1: Kyle Hamilton's every year, or how do you get three
Speaker 1: Michael Mayers instead of just one of each?
Speaker 2: I can't remember another time, at least, you know, over
Speaker 2: the last twenty years. I mean, you've been covering the
Speaker 2: team for twenty plus years now, Pete, and maybe you've
Speaker 2: got better perspect on this than I do. But it
Speaker 2: seems as if the appointment, the promotion of Marcus Freeman
Speaker 2: has almost given more instant credibility to Notre Dame on
Speaker 2: the recruiting trail than before, like even with those other coaches.
Speaker 2: You know, we can take Weiss as an example. Weiss
Speaker 2: was also viewed as a bit of a risk, a
Speaker 2: first time head coach, someone who had familiarity, in his
Speaker 2: case with Notre Dame. He was mostly sold to people,
Speaker 2: I think on the strength of what he did with
Speaker 2: Tom Brady and the new England Patriots, rightfully so, but
Speaker 2: there was never quite that lift in the recruiting game
Speaker 2: that I think we've seen in a very short period
Speaker 2: of time now under Marcus Freeman. And so that's why,
Speaker 2: even though this is a bit of a risk to
Speaker 2: put a first time guy in charge of a program
Speaker 2: that's already performing at such a high level, I don't
Speaker 2: think I'm as weirded out by it, because we know
Speaker 2: the recruiting is going to continue on that trajectory, and
Speaker 2: if anybody's going to figure out how better to sell
Speaker 2: Notre Dame to recruits, it's going to be Marcus Freeman.
Speaker 1: You know, It's I would disagree a little bit on Weiss.
Speaker 1: You look at the classes that he signed. He signed
Speaker 1: better classes than what Kelly had signed, and it like
Speaker 1: it was a it was a real mess early on.
Speaker 1: But then you're talking about you know, Golden Tate, Michael Floyd,
Speaker 1: Jimmy Clausen, Kyle Rudolph. You know, he signed some really
Speaker 1: good talent, but you know, just the program did not
Speaker 1: fit together. He didn't know how to run a defense,
Speaker 1: never could get the coordinator right there, which again kind
Speaker 1: of as a corollary to Freeman and Reeese. So, but
Speaker 1: the point with recruiting me in the uptick like you
Speaker 1: have an aggressive, young, good looking guy who is going
Speaker 1: to be able to relate to these players in a
Speaker 1: way that a sixty year old is not going to
Speaker 1: be able to. I mean, I always used to joke
Speaker 1: like if Notre Dame got every prospect whose parents wanted
Speaker 1: the kid at Notre Dame, like Bob Davey would have
Speaker 1: won four hundred games, he would still be the head coach.
Speaker 1: But that's not how it works. Like, you got to
Speaker 1: get the prospect on board. And I cannot imagine there's
Speaker 1: a lot of head coaches out there that are going
Speaker 1: to do a better job relating to kids than Marcus Freeman.
Speaker 1: I was. There was a four star, five star safety,
Speaker 1: Xavier Wanpa who committed to Iowa this week and Notre
Speaker 1: Dame was in it, but the Catholic school in northern
Speaker 1: Indiana was not really much of a selling point. But
Speaker 1: I had our Iowa reporter Scott Doctorman. He went to
Speaker 1: the press conference for the commitment and asked both the
Speaker 1: Xavier and his mom about Marcus Freeman, and they the
Speaker 1: mom said, if Xavier was making a decision purely based
Speaker 1: on the head coach, like it was Notre Dame. Like
Speaker 1: Notre Dame's head coach was was a value add to
Speaker 1: the recruitment in Marcus. You never heard that before. No,
Speaker 1: that is, you did not hear any prospect any where
Speaker 1: say like, I'm going to Notre Dame because of Brian
Speaker 1: everything else here with the degree and the network and
Speaker 1: the tradition and all the other stuff. Like you know
Speaker 1: that a lot of schools have great tradition degrees are
Speaker 1: you know a lot of schools have good academics. But
Speaker 1: to have that here with the head coach as a
Speaker 1: dynamic recruiter, that that, to me has a chance to
Speaker 1: sort of really throw gas on, you know, a fire
Speaker 1: that has gotten better, but with Marcus leading the way,
Speaker 1: I think I would be fascinated to sort of see
Speaker 1: where that goes.
Speaker 2: You've been covering the team for a while. You saw
Speaker 2: the end of the Bob Davey era. You saw the
Speaker 2: Oldleary debacle, the move to Willingham, the Weiss debacle, and
Speaker 2: the rise again of Notre Dame football under Brian Kelly
Speaker 2: and now Marcus Freeman. That's at least five Did I
Speaker 2: miss anything that I get all of them.
Speaker 1: I think you got yeah, I think you got everything there.
Speaker 2: Can we rank those? Can we rank those? Just in
Speaker 2: terms of, you know, the Pete Sampson like excitability index.
Speaker 2: You know, where are you at with respect to Marcus
Speaker 2: Freeman versus the excitement that initially was very much there
Speaker 2: with Charlie Weiss versus you know, I'd imagine we have
Speaker 2: to put the O'Leary thing or the Willingham era near
Speaker 2: the bottom because that whole thing was sort of a debacle.
Speaker 2: Kelly was always kind of like the smart higher and
Speaker 2: not anything that felt sexy in the moment, but definitely
Speaker 2: the kind of thing that made a lot of like
Speaker 2: practical sense. The Freeman one feels like it might be
Speaker 2: at the very top.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's there's certainly some recency bias that
Speaker 1: I'm trying to guard against, but I can't quite fend
Speaker 1: off based on you know, what you're seeing from the
Speaker 1: team and the press conference and the recruiting energy. So
Speaker 1: in terms of excitement, Freeman would be one. I would
Speaker 1: still put Kelly too, because that was a time where
Speaker 1: you're like, well, not only football is a hot and
Speaker 1: this guy has won everywhere he's been, So if it
Speaker 1: doesn't work with this guy. It might not work ever,
Speaker 1: so you felt like there was some air of certainty there.
Speaker 1: Willingham would definitely be last. I would put O'Leary above him,
Speaker 1: based purely on the by George It's o Leary t
Speaker 1: shirts that they made and hang out and handed out
Speaker 1: at his press conference.
Speaker 2: And the resume thing was so ridiculous too. I mean,
Speaker 2: it was so ridiculous in hindsight we look back and
Speaker 2: you know, I mean I was never the biggest Georgia
Speaker 2: Leary fan. The resume thing was so goofy in hindsight,
Speaker 2: and Willingham getting getting caught up in that. He didn't
Speaker 2: do anything to deserve it. He was just in a
Speaker 2: really bad situation on the back end of that O'Leary debacle.
Speaker 2: That yeah, I mean, you almost have to put him
Speaker 2: last by default.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Weiss would be in the middle. I mean,
Speaker 1: the bluster, you know, the way that that thing started with,
Speaker 1: you know, nineteen wins in two years, as it went
Speaker 1: to the BCS game twice they had that you know,
Speaker 1: the USC his signature win the loss to USC against
Speaker 1: in two thousand and five, like that was that was
Speaker 1: kind of a that was probably the single most like
Speaker 1: energetic game that I've covered in twenty one years. But yeah,
Speaker 1: the excitement around Marcus Freeman I think is at a
Speaker 1: different level. And that may be a byproduct of like
Speaker 1: the access we have through social media to Marcus Freeman
Speaker 1: and seeing how the players react. But I have a
Speaker 1: very difficult times thinking like, yes, there was some video
Speaker 1: shot on VHS of the players meeting Charlie Weiss and
Speaker 1: they were just as excited to meet him as they
Speaker 1: were to meet Marcus Freeman last week.
Speaker 2: Well, you bring up a good point with Weiss though,
Speaker 2: and you know I'm not the first person to say this,
Speaker 2: but Weiss, to some extent, was the victim of his
Speaker 2: own early success. He did very well, very quickly, and
Speaker 2: then as it diminished, as it dwindled off, that was
Speaker 2: when it started to come off the swivel a little bit.
Speaker 2: Marcus Freeman, I think, is in a much different situation now.
Speaker 2: The program's in a good spot and recruitings at an
Speaker 2: all time high. They've got a great roster that was
Speaker 2: young this year that I think has a lot of
Speaker 2: room to improve, but they start out hot next year. Yes,
Speaker 2: right on the road against Ohio State. There's also a
Speaker 2: game in Vegas against BYU, which is probably not a cupcake.
Speaker 2: There's a Clemson game at home. Clemson's going to be better.
Speaker 2: There's a Boston College game, which Boston College is always
Speaker 2: kind of at Notre Dame's throat and they will be better.
Speaker 2: And then they close out the year at USC after
Speaker 2: USC has a full season under Lincoln Riley. So it's
Speaker 2: not an easy schedule by any stretch of the imagination.
Speaker 2: I wonder how people will feel if you and I
Speaker 2: are talking a year from now and Notre Dame goes
Speaker 2: eight and four.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean people will be disappointed for sure. Kind
Speaker 1: of question my mail bag today about out, you know,
Speaker 1: if this doesn't work, what happened? And then you look
Speaker 1: at the schedule which you just brought up, But it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's not that they have Clemson in Ohio
Speaker 1: State home and home this year, next year, and then
Speaker 1: again in twenty twenty three, and then you have Texas
Speaker 1: A and M home and home in twenty four to
Speaker 1: twenty five. USC and Lincoln Riley is not going to
Speaker 1: be USC. Clay Hilton, Yeah, I didn't even include BYU
Speaker 1: in there, But you look back at Brian Kelly was
Speaker 1: three and eight against top ten teams in twelve years.
Speaker 1: Everybody it was three in ten. Excuse me, Like Marcus
Speaker 1: Freeman could play as many top ten teams in his
Speaker 1: first four years as Brian Kelly played in twelve. So
Speaker 1: the schedule is completely different than what Brian Kelly faced.
Speaker 1: So that that I will be interested to sort of
Speaker 1: see if Nor Dame fans sort of grade Marcus freemant
Speaker 1: on a curve, not less because he's the first time
Speaker 1: head coach, and more because he's just playing really good
Speaker 1: teams all the time, and Brian Kelly did not. Toward
Speaker 1: the end of his tenure. It's you know, the guy
Speaker 1: had three top ten wins in twelve years. That's that
Speaker 1: is not good. You know that you have to deliver
Speaker 1: on that stage more than Brian Kelly did. So Marcus
Speaker 1: Freeman is going to be on that stage a lot,
Speaker 1: and he's going to be learning how to deal with
Speaker 1: it while he's on it, and that that's very difficult.
Speaker 1: So I think that Not Name's fan base will probably
Speaker 1: accommodate that a little bit. Certainly in his first year
Speaker 1: they're like, all right, that's that excitement that you felt
Speaker 1: with that locker room video and that press conference. Let's
Speaker 1: see if that maintains after you lose by fourteen points
Speaker 1: or seventeen points in Columbus. I don't know, but I
Speaker 1: think that it would be wise if you're a no
Speaker 1: name fan base to have some perspective that you're you
Speaker 1: hired a guy that has to learn on the job.
Speaker 1: You accept that today, you also have to accept that
Speaker 1: in September or October, November.
Speaker 2: And I think people can tolerate eight and four. The
Speaker 2: problem is the schedule. It's a really difficult schedule. Fans
Speaker 2: can tolerate eight and four if it's like an Arkansas
Speaker 2: eight and four, right, Like, Yeah, you watch the team,
Speaker 2: you know they're better than their record would indicate. But
Speaker 2: it really is a product of the schedule. What fans
Speaker 2: don't like to tolerate, and I know this well, is
Speaker 2: what happened at Penn State. James Franklin has done great
Speaker 2: things in state college, but he lost a bunch of
Speaker 2: games this year. They didn't have depth behind their quarterback.
Speaker 2: I mean, we could talk till we're blue in the
Speaker 2: face about what went wrong at Penn State. But that's
Speaker 2: the reason why fans are very quickly turning on James
Speaker 2: Franklin because it felt like they left a lot on
Speaker 2: the table. So it'll be interesting to see what happens,
Speaker 2: as you said, in a very short period of time
Speaker 2: here for Marcus Freeman, knowing that they've got this kind
Speaker 2: of schedule in front of them, I'm curious to see
Speaker 2: what he does a defensive coordinator, you know, as you
Speaker 2: alluded earlier, have we heard anything else? I know it's
Speaker 2: probably very early, but we have any kind of indication
Speaker 2: as to where he might go in that capacity.
Speaker 1: We don't. I mean, on the one hand, you could
Speaker 1: promote Mike Elston, who's been the defensive line coach here
Speaker 1: for twelve years, has been passed over for the DC
Speaker 1: job a few times, including for Marcus Freeman. Mike Mickens
Speaker 1: has never been a coordinator. Played with Marcus Freeman in
Speaker 1: high school. He's the corners coach. They coached together at
Speaker 1: Cincinnati before Mickens moved over here two years ago. So
Speaker 1: there are a couple options there, and you know, we'll
Speaker 1: but we'll notre Dame go outside and find a coach
Speaker 1: who maybe is a little bit more veteran, has some
Speaker 1: different ideas. That's that's possible, But if you're running Marcus
Speaker 1: Freeman's defense, I'm not sure that you need to go
Speaker 1: outside and get somebody who's incredibly experienced in a different
Speaker 1: system that you're not going to run anyway. So I'm
Speaker 1: not sure where they go with that. You know, special
Speaker 1: teams is open. I would love to see them make
Speaker 1: a run at somebody like Kerry Coombs from Ohio State,
Speaker 1: who's sort of done a little bit of everything. Ohio Ties,
Speaker 1: you know, knows, Marcus Freeman knows, you know, Mike Elston.
Speaker 1: They coached together at Cincinnati under Brian Kelly. So it's
Speaker 1: I would like to see them get some experience on
Speaker 1: the staff, like it doesn't need to all be thirty
Speaker 1: year olds. But I don't know what Marcus Freeman has
Speaker 1: in mind for like philosophically, what he needs in a DC.
Speaker 2: Well, it'll be fascinating. It's been I think one of
Speaker 2: the more fascinating stories throughout the coaching carousel. It's already
Speaker 2: been one of the more active coaching carousels that we've
Speaker 2: seen in recent memory. But the rise of sort of
Speaker 2: the first time head coach. We're seeing it at Oklahoma
Speaker 2: as well, we've seen it elsewhere around college football. That's
Speaker 2: sort of been a cool story that I don't know
Speaker 2: we necessarily saw coming at the start of all this.
Speaker 2: So we'll definitely be tuned into you to see what
Speaker 2: else you have to offer, what else your sources are
Speaker 2: telling you as we go through bowl season, most of
Speaker 2: the off season here and build towards twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2: But it's been it's been interesting to watch. I hope
Speaker 2: you're able to get some sleep now. Are you still
Speaker 2: on the West Coast?
Speaker 1: No? No, I've had long since return to South Bend.
Speaker 1: I saw at the press conference, so yes, when Jack
Speaker 1: Serbrick did his immediate sort of crisis management press conference
Speaker 1: at ten am Eastern, that was seven am Pacific, where
Speaker 1: I was in a hotel room trying not to wake
Speaker 1: up my kids. What did you do with the eight
Speaker 1: year old in that scenario that you described earlier when
Speaker 1: you got the call from how did he deal? He
Speaker 1: got in and out? Yeah, he got in and out
Speaker 1: and ate and ate it in the back of the car.
Speaker 1: And then I was like, all right, guys, this this
Speaker 1: might be the end of my vacation. I know you
Speaker 1: guys are here for another day, but like, this might
Speaker 1: be it for me. So how much do they care
Speaker 1: they more than I thought. They had some strong opinions
Speaker 1: about Brian Kelly that I will not stay live. But
Speaker 1: they also they also seem to really like Marcus Freeman.
Speaker 1: I think they're picking up on that energy, so that
Speaker 1: a new day for them as well.
Speaker 2: Kids are a good judge of character. Man Pete Sampson
Speaker 2: from The Athletic go read him if you like Notre
Speaker 2: Dame Am or just if you like college football. He
Speaker 2: does a great job. Check out the podcast he does
Speaker 2: with our other friend Matt for Tuna Out of the Shamrock.
Speaker 1: You can listen.
Speaker 2: Just go to the Athletic dot com. Pete, I wish
Speaker 2: you well. I know we talk every so often when
Speaker 2: things like this happen, but it's always a pleasure to
Speaker 2: get your insight.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's my pleasure. Thanks guy.
Speaker 2: All Right, that's Pete Sampson. Don't forget to check him
Speaker 2: out over at the Athletic. He's at Pete Sampson Underscore
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