WEBVTT - Ma' Barker: A Doting Mother And Gangster Overlord 0:00:02.840 --> 0:00:07.400 What strung the funk out my podcast hosts. I'm Robert Evans, 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:10.559 the very hungover host of Behind the Bastards, the podcast 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:12.960 where we tell you everything you don't know about the 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:16.160 worst people in all of history. And this is like 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.320 the ninth or tenth podcast I've introduced by warning everyone 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:24.040 that I'm very hungover. Uh. My guest today is the 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:28.240 wonderful Emily Yeshida of the Night Call podcast with Tess 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:31.920 and Molly, who are guests on the Reagan Astrologer episode. Emily, 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:34.559 how are you doing today? I'm doing great. I've been 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:36.360 saying like it's it's it's very good of you to 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:39.640 take over the hangover duties this morning because I've been 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:42.480 I've been taking them over uh for most of this week. 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:46.479 So I'm glad we could coordinate that. I'm the podcasting 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.280 equivalent of that that marine who dives on a hand 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:52.519 grenade to save his squad, but the hand grenade was 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:55.600 drinking too much at the live podcast recording I did 0:00:55.680 --> 0:01:00.480 last night, and then eating Indian food and continue to drink. 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:05.000 It's really hard to turn down free drinks being given 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:07.080 to you by people who like you and think that 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:12.000 you're cool. It's Uh, it's a tough proposition to turn down. 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:16.080 I can I can absolutely say it beats having free 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:18.440 drinks thrown at you by people who hate you and 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:22.800 think that you're lame, which is my prior experience. So 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:26.720 if I have to pick one, I will pick it now. Emily, 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:28.640 how do you how do you? How do you? How 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:33.479 do you feel about gangsters? Um? I'm relatively down with gangsters. 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:35.640 I mean, there's so many there's so many genres of 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:39.920 gangster across history that you know, Yeah, it's hard to 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:42.959 say blanket, I'm into all gangsters, but sure, I'm open 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:46.320 to gangsters. Do you do you think that, damn it, 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:51.480 it feels good to be a gangster? Um? I actually 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:53.360 feel like it would be. I feel like, damn it 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:56.880 would be very stressful to be a gangster. Honestly, anytime 0:01:56.920 --> 0:01:59.280 I watch one of those like norm movies or something, 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:02.080 I'm like, how do you live every night when you're 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:05.240 pretty sure that somebody's gonna barge in your house with 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:10.520 a Tommy gun? Like that just seems extremely stressful? But yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:13.880 it does seem very stressful. Um. Would you say you're 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:16.359 the kind of person who just sort of like you 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:18.840 got a grab bag of FBI agents on one hand, 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.720 you get a grab bag of gangsters. On another hand, 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:24.440 you pull randomly from both bags. What do you think 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:26.480 the odds are you wind up more sympathetic to the 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:29.799 gangster you pull out than the FBI agent you pull out. Um, 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:34.160 I think I'm always going to trend towards the gangster. Uh, 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:41.000 just on principle. Well, then we're copasetic on this because 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:43.160 I'm in the same boat, and today we are talking 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:48.600 about a gangster, uh, and a gangster that uh, Sophie, 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:50.959 our producer has been wanting me to write an episode 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:53.640 about for quite a while. So that's that's the story 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:59.240 of this day. All right, good God, I'm gonna I'm 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:04.800 gonna thanks for coming up with the idea. I wrote 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:08.560 it this on a plane, UM, so you can taste 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:13.280 the altitude and the words. I assume now, as a 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:17.000 recovering Oklahoman and a crime appreciator, I too have a 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:19.959 lot of inherent sympathy for the gangsters. Particularly of the 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:23.680 nineteen twenties and thirties, criminal capitalist speculators and baggers had 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:26.880 destroyed the national economy, while reckless commercial agriculture had ruined 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:29.600 most of the national ecology. None of the men responsible 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:32.320 for this ever suffered any legal consequences for their crimes. 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:34.400 Most of them got to keep living in giant mansions 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:36.920 and getting fat off the collected labor of the impoverished 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:40.880 American populace. When FDR tried to moderately alleviate the suffering 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.200 of the American people, these folks attempted to depose him 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:47.040 via a military coup. So I look with understanding at 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:49.440 the people who robbed banks and burgled the businesses of 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.640 the one percent, particularly during this period. Um. Now, these 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.280 guys also killed a lot of innocent people with machine guns, 0:03:56.320 --> 0:04:00.520 so it's kind of hard to call them heroes. But 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:05.240 I don't normally call any given gangster a bastard. Um. 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:07.440 Some of my bias on this is probably due to 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:09.400 the fact that one of the most famous gangsters of 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:11.840 the gangster era was a cousin of mine, a fellow 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:17.479 named pretty Boy Floyd Barnes. Oh really, pretty boy Floyd. 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:21.000 That's incredible. Yeah, he was my great grandma's first cousin. 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:23.960 She was very proud of him, as was my grandmother. Yeah, 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:26.400 she would talk about our outlaw blood all the time. 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:29.159 I mean, that's very romantic. It's so much easier to 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:32.520 romanticize having a gangster in your family than an FBI 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:36.320 agent in your family. It's just true. It's just something 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:40.080 elemental about it. Yeah, I would rather be related to 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:44.000 a gangster than a copy unless that cop is Bruce 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:48.479 Willis in one of the four movies in which she's 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:50.719 he's a fun cop. He gets to do fun cop 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:54.919 things he does. Real police rarely get to ramp vehicles 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:58.800 into other vehicles, and when they do, it's usually racist. 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:02.080 So it's a hard one. Now. Pretty Boy Floyd was 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:04.960 known to his fellow Oklahoman's as the sage brush Robin Hood. 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:06.600 He got his start in crime at a j teen, 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:09.560 stealing three and fifty dollars in pennies, or, if you 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.160 believe Woody Guthrie, from beating a cop to death with 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:15.040 a log chain for cursing in front of his wife. Now, 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:17.960 the thing that disturbed authorities like jedeger Hoover of the 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:21.120 Bureau of Investigation was how popular many gangsters were with 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:24.159 the common folk. This was in part because they targeted banks. 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:26.479 Pretty Boy Floyd was famous for robbing on the insured 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:29.080 banks and for burning the mortgage papers of farmers when 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.600 he came across them. The FBI's archives somewhat disputes that, 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.680 noting while Floyd reportedly destroyed mortgage notes from a bank 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:37.320 or two that he robbed in hopes of saving a 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:40.560 few farmers from foreclosure, his reputation is a humanitarian or 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:43.520 a robin Hood is undeserved. Now, they don't go into 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:46.280 buch to tail about that. They just say, because he 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.520 shot a lot of cops, Uh, he wasn't a robin Hood. 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:52.240 But I should note here that the FBI is not 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:55.240 the most reliable source on the lives of gangsters in 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:59.120 this era. They're the agency that killed most of these people, um, 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.720 including our current subjects of the day, Mob Barker and 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.960 her sons, um. But the lives of gangsters are very 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:09.719 deeply politicized still, and so the research I've conducted for 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.720 this episode, which was not crazy extensive, I caught the 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:15.120 Bureau in at least one lie by a mission. Now, 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:16.680 I say all this to set it up that if 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:19.400 you read the official FBI reports on some of the 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:23.000 stuff we're talking about, they will contrast with the story 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:25.359 I am telling you today. The story I'm telling you 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:27.920 today is based primarily on the work of historians who 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:32.599 I trust more than cops. So anyway, that's the introduction. Um. 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:35.720 Always always robin shared banks. I just want to do 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:39.440 out there. I mean it's hard not to at this point. 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:41.200 If you're going to rob a bank is probably insured, 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:43.479 but make sure your bank's insured before you rob it. 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:48.680 That's the new T shirt Emily. Yeah, always rob and 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:54.760 shared banks. Bastards, always be rob bean and shirt banks. Yeah. 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:59.080 And if you get a chance to destroy mortgage paperwork, 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.840 do it, sure, Yeah banks, Yeah, burn up some loans, 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:06.760 burn ups. It was a lot easier back when everything 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.039 was on paper. Yeah, I know. Yeah, that would have 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:10.720 been so fun. You would have really felt like you 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.280 could make an impact as a bank robber. It would 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:16.080 feel a lot more political. Oh yeah, like you're not 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:18.600 just Point Break like trying to go surfing or whatever. 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.720 Like you can actually like change a lot of people's lives. Yeah. 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.400 I guess that is like the most political bank rubber 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:28.440 in a in a modern movie outside I maybe the 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:30.880 joker is like the guys in Point Break, and they 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:32.840 just wanted to serve. They just wanted to serve that 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:37.320 they did rob the bank. In President masks, they were 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:41.480 the president, they were the dead president's presidents, which you know, 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:43.960 seems mostly like a non sequit or with the rest 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:46.080 of their whole deal. But it was fun. Had they 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:50.080 had flair. They had flair. There was like zero politics 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:54.600 actually going on in the movie other than if we 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:58.760 hit this wave, I mean, it would I mean and 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:01.960 anybody would argues other wise, is uh not somebody I 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:05.400 want to align myself with politically. Yeah, yeah, that that 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:10.520 is my politics is rubbing banks to hit sick waves. Now, 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:14.040 Mob Barker is not the most famous gangster of her era, 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:16.960 but she was at one point public Enemy number one, 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:22.600 which is objectively the coolest title you can you can achieve. Um, 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:25.080 I hope we all become public enemy number one at 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:30.600 some point. Everybody gets their turn on the internet. Yeah, 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.000 I feel like that is kind of that is kind 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.160 of how Twitter works. Every day we have a new 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:38.640 public enemy number one. Yeah, that sounds way cooler than 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:42.320 complaining about cancel culture. It's like everybody gets their day 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:44.520 to be public enemy number one. You can revel in 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:48.360 it a little bit. At least it's going to happen. Oh, 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:51.080 I'm excited for my day to come when my many 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:53.360 many crimes are finally exposed to the world. That's going 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:56.680 to be great. Oh boy, um no, that's another thing. See, 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:57.920 this is why I wouldn't be cut out to be 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.160 a gangster. I'm already too stressed out about like just 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:03.079 saying one wrong word at one point and getting better. 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:06.440 Anyone realizing how often you shoplift from Costco? Yeah, oh 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:10.880 my god, I mean it's not yeah, you joke, I 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:14.120 have a I have a pretty bad shoplifting pass. So okay. 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:19.920 You know, if if if God didn't want us to shoplift, 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:26.040 he wouldn't have given us pockets. And that is my justification. Yeah, 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:30.319 checks out hard to argue with. Now. By some accounts, 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:32.920 mob Barker was the among the most innovative and successful 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:36.120 criminal masterminds of any era. By other accounts, she was 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:38.520 mostly just a chef in the moral support system for 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.520 her criminal children. The FBI takes the angle that she 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.200 was not a mastermind and that she was mostly just 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:46.640 supporting her boys, who did all of the real crime. 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:49.679 Thinking the bulk of the evidence seems to discredit them 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:53.560 on this. Uh, and I'm you know, that's enough of 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.520 my anti FBI pro gangster. Let's let's let's get into 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:59.520 the story. Mob. Barker's life is often summed up like 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:02.640 this folk see right up by the University of Florida quote. 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:05.920 Born in the Ozarks, she was poor in her early years. 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:08.880 So strong was her lust for money, furs, and bobbles. 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:10.920 She turned to a life of crime and led four 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:14.160 young sons down the same path. The eldest herman convinced 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:16.400 her crime does pay, so she opened up in her 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:18.720 own home a school of Crime for the young uns. 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:21.800 When they were arrested for petty infractions, she upbraided them 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.920 for getting caught. Trust the University of Florida to use 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.840 the word young UN's in a historical write up. I love, 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:31.080 I love. I mean the idea of a school for 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:33.960 crime is just so cute. I mean it just sounds 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:36.840 so I mean, it's just very very Oliver twist of course. 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:39.760 But um, I don't know. It seems like a fun, 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.959 fun time. It does seems like a good good night. 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.360 A podcasts the Old School of Crime, how a bunch 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:47.959 of different people come up and like this is how 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:50.240 I got free water from the city. This is how 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:53.760 I got that boot off my car without paying. Yeah, 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:56.320 the lecture series would be incredible At the School for 0:10:56.400 --> 0:11:01.480 crime for crime. Yeah, the school for petty petty cry Yeah, 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:06.960 stealing some lifesavers, yeah, the school for getting by crime, 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:09.280 like how to sneak, how to sneak the fixings to 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:11.840 make your ramen palatable out of your out of the 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:14.520 grocery store and a jacket without getting caught. See this 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:17.560 is like actually stuff that I've thought about trying to 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:20.000 turn into a podcast at some point or another. It's 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:25.240 just like actual like basic poverty skills for twenty somethings 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.280 and up, like just like you know how to how 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:32.520 to jerry rigged things out of other things and make 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:35.520 it into like just so you can get by and 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:39.080 have a less stressful life on zero dollars um. Yeah. 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:42.720 I have a lot to say about how to specifically 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:45.960 jigger the breaking down pieces of your car so that 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:49.000 the police won't notice that your registration has been expired 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:53.040 for years. That's really critical skill, critical skills. Yeah, because 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:58.120 that ruined me for many like years, was my stupid 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:03.080 car and it's stupid registrate ship. Yeah, it's a It 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:05.520 says something about our society that all almost all of 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:08.640 our tips for living in poverty are also crimes. But 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:13.280 that's the story for another day, um So, my main 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:16.880 source for this episode is Mob Barker America's Most Wanted 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.760 Mother by Howard Kazanjian and Chris Ince U E N 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:22.880 s S. I don't know how to pronounce that. Ince 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.360 seems to be right. It's the best right up of 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:29.240 this particular story that I found, and it's a fun book. So. 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:34.360 Arizona Donnie Clark was born on October eighteen seventy three 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.439 in Greene County, Missouri. She was one of four children, 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:40.240 and her childhood occurred on a small farm eighteen miles 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:43.600 from nowhere. Arizona's family called her Airy, which she seems 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:53.120 to have hated. Her beloved father died when she was seven. What, Sophie, what? 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:57.200 What's wrong with air? It's just funny that she's Arizona 0:12:57.240 --> 0:12:59.600 and her family is like you're Airy, and she's like, no, 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:05.400 I'm not call me Arizona. I don't think she liked 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.520 that either, which I don't know. It's a very hippie 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:12.320 name for the time. Yeah, there's a raising Arizona joke there, 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:14.640 but I'm not going to make because I haven't seen 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:18.360 that movie. Uh not on a Nicolas Cage's Best or 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:21.199 maybe it is I don't know. He's very charming in it. 0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:25.040 But but it's about it's about crimes, and it's about 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:28.200 a baby. So so far, you know, it sounds like 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:33.880 Toronto biomography. Now, uh Ari's beloved father died when she 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:36.400 was seven, and her mother remarried not long after to 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:38.440 a guy with the last name of Reynolds, who she 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.840 did not like. Now, the family moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma, 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.200 where her stepfather took up work as a cop. It 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:48.280 would be rank speculation for me to, you know, wonder 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.000 that her stepfather's career as a police officer had an 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.320 impact on Arizona's adult life, but it's hard not to 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:56.160 think about given what comes next. Most sources seem to 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:58.920 agree that she really hated her stepdad, largely because he 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:01.960 favored his natural born children over his wives children. So 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:05.480 this is one of those classic step parents stories. Um, 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:09.599 all step parents are bastards, apparently, that's the that's the 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:13.679 lesson Disney taught me. That's true. It's like, you know, 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.080 but it also means you're more likely to be a 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.360 heroine in a Disney movie if you have a step parent. 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.720 So oh yeah, having a step parent is the key 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.440 to after ninety minutes or so, winding up in a 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:27.920 great place. Yeah. Yeah, being an orphan, having a step 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:33.720 parent being somebody's award. Also. Yeah. The first thing I 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:36.400 learned from popular fiction as a kid was that the 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.240 best thing to have is dead parents, Like you really 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:40.960 want to get those parents out of the way as 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:46.800 soon as possible, really helps with everything. Now, Mr Reynolds, 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:49.680 her stepdad did not approve of the man mob Barker 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:53.960 fell in love with at age nineteen, George Elias Barker. Uh. 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:58.120 They were married on September four. Now. George was ten 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:01.160 years older than Arizona, which in most cases would be 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:03.880 caused for serious concerned that the much older party might 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:08.280 dominate the younger Uh. Fortunately, or perhaps unfortunately, nothing like 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:11.880 that happened. George was soft spoken, non confrontational, and even 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:15.000 a bit shy. He was utterly dominated by his young wife. 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:17.360 For her part, Kate, which is what she was going 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:19.800 by at this point, was disappointed in her man from 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.040 the beginning of their relationship. Decades later, the Kansas City 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:26.040 Star would right this. Of her upbringing, her life had 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:29.000 been that of an ordinary missera farm girl, church, Sunday 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:32.280 school picnics, hey riots, candy polls in a little red schoolhouse. 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.080 Somewhere she acquired a need for riches and personal power. 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:37.640 She hoped to obtain golden glory by way of her husband, 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:40.560 but eventually realized it could only be learned by her sons. 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:45.960 That's kind of the common right up of her. All right, yeah, 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:48.720 it's it's interesting to me that they all write like, oh, 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:52.320 she wanted all these uh, superficial things, that's what she 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:56.080 like as if it's yeah, and it's like, well, maybe 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:57.600 she just grew up poor in a farm and didn't 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.360 want to be poor any Yeah, like painting this picture 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:04.200 of like the epitome of Americana being like, but why 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:07.280 did she become so materialistic? It's like it's baked into 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:12.080 being an American, especially before being poor in a farm sucks. 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:17.160 It's nice to have furs, like like, like all pop 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:19.760 cultures seems to tell us unless we try to get 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:22.040 it by committing crimes. Well, I do feel like, I mean, 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:23.480 I feel like there have been some movies that have 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:25.920 addressed this, but like the fact that there is radio 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:29.400 and there's like more rapid pop culture that can be 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.360 disseminated is like why so many of these people get 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:34.560 into crime in the first place, and are also like 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:38.680 why they become celebrities become these mythical figures because they 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:40.960 are pop cultural figures at the time. Like that's what 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:43.720 I think a lot of Like Michael Mann's movie Um, 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:47.360 Public Enemies is about, um, yeah, it's great. Yeah I 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:49.240 think I think so. And we'll get to that in 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.920 a second. So, her husband, George, was uneducated and he 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:55.200 had no interest in obtaining an education. He was a 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:58.640 daily laborer with zero aspirations beyond working on a small 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:01.720 farm and making enough to serve five Kate, though, had 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:03.960 spent enough time being poor as a little girl. She 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:06.240 wanted more out of life, and she asked her stepdad 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:08.239 to loan her and her husband some money so they 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:11.159 could start a business. Her stepfather turned them down, and 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:14.280 she never spoke with him again. For a time, Kate 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:17.080 tried to push George into success. She lived as a 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:20.239 simple housewife and threw herself into religion. Most people who 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:22.200 knew her in those days say she was almost never 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:24.760 seen without a Bible in hand, but at home, away 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:28.960 from prying eyes, she developed another obsession. Outlaws. The Jesse 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:32.200 James Gang and the Dalton Gang were her particular favorites. 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:34.919 Both groups robbed banks across the same chunk of the 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:37.280 country where Kate had grown up. In fact, she'd even 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:39.760 watched the James gang right through town as a girl. 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.480 Being a woman, and this being the eighteen nineties, Kate 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:45.400 did not have any hope of being a successful gangster herself. 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.000 Bonnie Parker had not yet fired a Tommy gun into 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:51.159 that glass ceiling. So Kate found herself enamored with the 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:55.000 mothers of these daring criminals. According to mob Barker, America's 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:58.080 most Wanted mother quote, the Dalton's and the James boys 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.640 were raised by strong, defiant mothers whom sure they knew 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:02.600 how to use a weapon and fight for what they wanted. 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:04.680 The influence the women had on their families, and the 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:07.040 devotion their sons felt towards them mothers struck a chord 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:09.760 with Kate. She aspired to have it in her own life. 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:14.719 I mean, everybody wants to raise an army of loyal, 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:18.720 large adult sons to do crimes. Why are you the 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:23.639 president did? And look how that's work. They're not great 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:26.399 at it, but it's that doesn't seem to matter so well, 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:28.440 it's all about the intention I mean, it does take 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.240 a lot of work to like first create that army 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.960 of large adult sons. So and even I mean to 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:38.760 too can be an army. So yeah, fo is even better. Yeah, 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:40.840 I mean, in a way, we're all trying to raise 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:43.160 our own large adult sons for a life of crime. 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:47.760 I'm just trying to do it by radicalizing people through podcasts. Again, 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:50.920 Robin shared banks, Sophie, could we urge people to rob 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:54.200 banks on the show? If it's like what if it's 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:59.160 like my views don't reflect the views of the network. Um, 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:05.160 but still, Robin, sure, Banks, My my advice that people 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:14.760 rob ensured banks is purely humor. Yeah, satire, satiretzing satirizing 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.600 bank robbers by advising people to rob banks. Yeah, it's 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:22.480 a wonderful satire. It's really sharp. That's that's legally bulletproof, 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:26.280 all right. Now. Kate and George had their first son, Herman, 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:30.200 on October. They had three more sons over the next 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:32.800 several years, ending with their fourth son, Fred in nineteen 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:36.119 o three. All these mouths to feed strained George's limited 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:38.840 ability to provide. He did manage to save enough cash 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:40.520 to buy a small farm, but the house on it 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.840 was essentially a decrepit hovel, barely fit for human habitation. 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:47.520 Kate was desperately unhappy with these circumstances and longed for 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:50.200 something better. And it is hard not to see why 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:53.000 when we're talking about the poverty in this era, we're 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:55.360 not like talking about like a quaint little farmhouse. We're 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:59.240 talking about a building that's essentially made of trash wood, uh, 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:02.800 filled with mice and vermin and mosquitoes in the summer, 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:06.760 where people are basically pooping in a hole surrounded by flies. Like, 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:10.200 it's not a great life. This is like dust bowl time. 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:14.480 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's bad. It's a bad 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.520 time to be a human being. Um. This is a 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:20.040 little before that during this period, but it's still a 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:25.080 time of like unspeakable poverty. Um yeah, it's so crazy 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:27.560 that that's like that, that's still like what we consider 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.800 the modern era more more or less than that, Like 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:33.800 people were living like in like the the the United 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.960 States could not necessarily yet be considered a first world country. 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:40.280 It's incredible, not by modern standards. And it is one 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:42.399 of those things like you really you think about, you 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:44.440 read about, like the Great battles in World War Two, 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:47.320 and World War One and how like nightmarish the privations 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:49.680 were for the soldiers. But then you have to think, like, well, okay, 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:52.840 but most of them grew up like farming dirt and 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:55.440 shipping in holes. Like it's not like this was new. 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:59.200 It's not like living rough was an incomprehensible concept to 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:00.560 all of them. You know, a lot of them grew 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:02.040 up in cities, but a lot of them were sucking 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:06.400 country people. The base the base level you're starting from 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:10.359 is uh considerably different. Yeah, yeah, people are tougher in 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:12.200 this period of time. This is right around the period 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:14.800 that my grandpa left home when he was seventeen. The 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:17.080 economy collapse and his dad was like, we can't take 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:20.840 care of you. And he walked across two states with 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:22.840 nothing but cornbread in his pockets to go get a 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:24.960 job with a Civilian conservation Corps. And it's like I 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:26.840 never had to do ship like that, Like that would 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:29.680 have been This is like a little off topic, but 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:32.240 I've been watching the Ken Burns country music documentary and 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:34.119 it's like filled with stories like that, Like there's a 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:38.680 family like Walks, I think from Arkansas to California or 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:40.920 most of the way they walked most of the way, 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:43.679 and it's just like, Also, it's like everybody dies at 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:45.720 thirty and they look like they're sixty two years old, 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:50.240