WEBVTT - Understanding TikTok – Should it Stay, or Should it Go? 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:04.720 Now really. 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:11.120 Really now really hello, and welcome to really know really 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:13.680 with Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden, who asked, isn't it 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:16.360 really time you subscribe to our show time? As in 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:20.360 TikTok and amazingly. On this episode, we discuss TikTok, the 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.480 video hosting platform owned by the Chinese company Fight Dance, 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:25.119 and whether or not it should be banned in the 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:27.840 United States, as many in Congress are trying to do. 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:28.880 We're joined by. 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:30.760 One of the foremost experts on the topic. 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:31.440 Bruce Schneier. 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:35.479 We'll discuss how spying, manipulation, and misinformation are at the 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:37.839 heart of the to ban or not to ban issue, 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:40.839 and whether TikTok is really any different from meta Google 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:41.360 or x. 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:42.800 We'll also cover. 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:45.320 How surveillance as a business model is actually one hundred 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:49.080 percent legal, how social media's ability to manipulate you is 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:52.080 much greater than you think, why data privacy is a 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:55.840 national security issue that isn't treated like one, and lastly, 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:57.120 cougar hemorrhoids. 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:02.240 You heard me, folks, cougar hemorrhoids. Really, no, really, here's 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:03.160 Jason and Peter. 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:08.000 An This episode is about TikTok, because which I know 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:10.679 nothing about it. I saw that the majority of Americans 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:12.920 state TikTok is a threat to national security. And then 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:14.440 you know me, I read a lot in prep and 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:15.639 then there's articles that say. 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:18.560 Oh, why that makes me laugh. TikTok is the threat 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.160 that security. Yeah, and then I read articles to say 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:24.560 it's not. And then meanwhile, India has banned it two 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:26.880 different times. They have the chairman of. 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:30.960 TikTok who just testified the congressional hero are observation the 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:35.959 congresional hero. First of all, you have congress people who 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:41.480 are interviewing who are borderline to seased and like they're 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:44.080 a step away. Their families have already made plans. They're 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:45.880 that old, they've been there that long. Yeah, they have 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:48.760 no idea about social media, none, not none. So this 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:50.800 guy's there. You do the line of questioning that we 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:57.120 love the most about the chairman of TikTok testify, But. 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:00.240 Miss chairman, are you a member of the Chinese Communist Party? 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:01.480 No, I'm from Singapore. 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:03.200 But are you a member? 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:06.400 Are you now or have you? 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:08.120 Where? And where do you currently reside? 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:12.480 And if i'm if I'm the CEO of TikTok, I'm 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:14.840 looking at him and here's the bubble that are over 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:18.920 my head. You knew I was coming, right, You have staff, 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:21.359 couldn't google me? Yeah? The other question, this is why 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:23.040 we wanted an expert on. This guy is a big 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:26.360 time expert coming on. So they're worried the TikTok's going 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:29.840 to take our information. Can't TikTok just call Facebook and 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:30.360 say you got it? 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.239 Already got it? 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:36.760 And I'm going to ask our guy, Brushneier. But now 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:39.800 I'm not on TikTok, but I am on Instagram. I'm 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:42.120 on Instagram and our show is on all the platforms. 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:45.080 When we created an account for the show, what the 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:47.720 information did we have to surrender to them? What did 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.239 they know that that the Chinese government is going to 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:51.720 feast on that? 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:53.440 What? What? What did I give up? Can I tell 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:55.760 you I put in my social Security number? Did I 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:58.200 give them my my children's stock? 0:02:58.400 --> 0:02:58.720 What? 0:02:58.720 --> 0:02:59.600 What did I give them? 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.000 That is a sycle? You're full of it, Because let's 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:05.359 get our expert on Bush Schneier, who is called a 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:08.240 security guru. This guy is testified in front of Congress. 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:11.480 He's written tons of articles. He can tell us the 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:14.079 really not really we're looking for today? Really if it's 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:17.040 so dangerous, it's so horrible, why am I reading articles 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:18.600 it says it's not dangerous, not horrible. 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:22.400 Is TikTok dangerous or not really nice? 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:27.320 Tell us already we want to really already, don't yanks around. 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:31.200 Bruce Schneier has joined us. He is a security expert. 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.120 He's written multitude of books. He's He's appeared in front 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:37.800 of Congress about hacking, about tech. He's a fellow at 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:41.160 the Brickman Klein Center for Internet Society at Harvard University. 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:44.560 Lecture Harvard who my kid went to the yel so 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:46.400 you know who I'll go. 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.119 I'll give a who to Harvard, even though yeah. 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:54.160 You don't know it's another So, mister Schneier, we want 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:58.320 to have you on because this TikTok thing is confusing. You. 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:00.760 Hear that most Americans think that it is an evil, 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.960 horrible thing. I know that the company administration tried to 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:08.480 ban it but couldn't. So welcome to the show. And 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:10.480 what do we need to know about? What do we 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:14.520 need to know about TikTok? That will clear up this 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:16.159 question for the people listening. 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:19.560 Probably not going to clear it up, but we could 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:24.719 certainly talk about it. Okay, so let's start generally, all 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:36.240 of these social media companies make their money spying on you. TikTok, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:39.640 every last one of them. Right, they spy on you, 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.800 They know a lot about you, and they try tonipilate you. Right, 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:46.679 they try to sell you stuff. That's their business model. 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:51.200 So in that way, TikTok is no different than anybody else. 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:56.400 On the other hand, TikTok is owned by the Chinese, 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:02.120 which makes it different. Is a threat national security? I 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:06.159 don't know is Facebook trans national security? Is there a 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:12.120 difference that matters? Maybe it's actually complicated. 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:15.920 But what do they Here's the thing that Peter don't know. 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:18.240 We're talking about, what do they know about me? 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:21.720 Like, I'm not on TikTok, but when I when I 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.840 sign up for social media, I have to give them 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:25.680 an email address. 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:27.920 I have to give them very little information about me. 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:31.240 But okay, Google, Google, Google knows what kind of porn 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:34.840 you like. Okay, that's how you search for it, right. 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:38.799 Google knows everything you hope, everything you fear, everything you searched. 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:42.560 And these things are very intimate. You got a Google 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:44.840 phart knows where you are at all times, knows who 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:48.160 you're with, because you've all got a phone. These are 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.440 the amount of information about us. Facebook famously knows your 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:56.320 relations before you announce it. They knows if you're voted, 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:59.320 know who you voted for, They know your sexual orientation 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.240 on the things you do and post. These are very 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:08.120 intimate portraits of us through our actions and tiktik, they 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:12.320 know a lot about us, and the amount is kind 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:15.160 of staggering. Those are a fortunate consumer ports she's a 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:18.640 couple of weeks ago, and all the information Facebook buys 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:23.160 from other companies to compile the dossiers. Assume TikTok is 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:26.279 the same thing. They all do this and the Internet 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:30.080 is built on spying. This is the most effective surveillance 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:31.440 device you've ever seen. 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:36.400 So are we concerned about let's say that it's a 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:41.039 Chinese government is in fact spying on this in some way? 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:44.560 Are we concerned about the metadata that we are giving 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:48.480 to these people, or are we concerned literally that if 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:50.920 they want to manipulate Jason Alexander, They're going to go 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:54.320 into my profile, figure out what I'm vulnerable about and 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:55.320 manipulate that. 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:56.880 What's our bigger concern? 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:59.800 Let's let's let's do them several. So let's let's talk 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:04.680 about the spying first. Now, the Chinese government does a 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:06.880 lot of spine and they were behind the Equal Facts 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:10.400 data breach. Remember that one seventeen, under forty seven million 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:14.160 credit records of Americans were stolen by the Chinese government. 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.760 They were behind the Office of Personnel Management. I think 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:20.400 that was a year later. This is the profiles of 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:24.920 everybody with security clearance. They hacked Mariota Hotels. They told 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.200 database the zoo stay and where. If you sort of 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:29.920 look at this, they kind of want to know who 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:32.560 comes in to their country. US a government employee. If 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:36.080 you have all of this data, you could know a 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:40.080 lot about individuals. And you can imagine US government wants 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:42.960 this data. Chinese government, a lot of governments want this 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:46.880 kind of data. So yes, you could easily imagine China 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:51.679 collecting data on Americans through TikTok. You could also imagine 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:54.120 them buying it by from Facebook, like Facebook sales all 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:56.400 this stuff, so they don't need their on social network. 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:01.000 So that's sort of data surveillance. So yeah, I think 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:04.080 there's an issue here. Is it really different than Facebook 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:05.480 or Twitter everybody else? Probably not? 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:07.480 But wait, but wait, let me let me before you 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:10.760 go into the other. The issue was that the Chinese government, 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.600 if you have a Chinese company, which this is a 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:17.080 Chinese company, can decide to do whatever they want, and 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:19.200 then the Chinese government goes, we want your fine, we 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:20.880 want your info, and they have to them. 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:24.960 So of course, the same way when the US government 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:29.760 asks Google or Apple or Facebook for data, the US 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:32.160 government lead the companies give it to the US government. 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:36.679 And you know, we know something about how these companies 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.720 respond to data requests from countries around the planet, right, 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.400 you know they do. We don't know to what extent 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:49.280 they These companies respond to orders by the Chinese government 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:52.559 for day US companies, but you're right, a Chinese company 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.560 will respond quicker or effectively give it all right, like 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.280 more under the control of Chinese governments. So that's definitely 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:02.720 a concern. It's a matter of degree, not client. So 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:06.680 that surveils Let's move to the other half. Manipulation, all right, 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:12.440 we know that US companies engage in some manipulation. Facebook 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:16.000 rand and experiment in mood alteration where they where they 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:20.320 show that if they showed you happy posts by your friends, 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:23.440 you'd be happier they showed you sad post you'd be sad. 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:27.240 They showed that they were able to affect whether you 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:31.000 voted or not by showing you posts of people you 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.800 knew who also voted, or not showing you those. We 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:38.640 don't know what extent the US companies manipulate, right which 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:42.720 you only know Twitter. Make sure you see Musk's posts 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:46.840 and the posts that he likes. So yes, you could 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:51.280 easily imagine TikTok doing the same thing. And even though 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:55.560 that malicious intent, it is clear that the algorithm sends 0:09:55.600 --> 0:10:01.560 people down rabbit holes of depression or you know, anxiety, 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:05.760 or maybe even blissfulness and happiness I guess said is 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:09.040 better than happy for engagement. So we know that, like 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:12.559 everybody else, TikTok does that. That is that is the 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:16.240 nature of social media. The question here is could they 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:19.240 do it on behest of their government? And the answer 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:23.160 is yes. We kind of know the answer because the 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:27.520 TikTok available in China is very different than the TikTok 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:31.679 av the United States. The Chinese government actually has restrictions 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.559 on the amount of this kind of manipulation TikTok and 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:39.040 do on its own citizens, but in the US it's 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:41.600 a free for all. TikTok and behave just like Facebook, 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:42.480 Twitter and everybody else. 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:45.640 Wow, that's that's a really really right there. Is it 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:48.000 much of a difference from. 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:50.880 You know, I don't know, because it's not much experimentation. 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:55.000 I believe it is. I believe there are rules on 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:58.720 on the kind of contact content TikTok and show Chinese 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.520 users they have on engagements, so they don't want people 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:04.800 addicted to it, you know, But that's not just TikTok, 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:07.560 that's all social media. But of course it's in China, 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:10.440 so you've got you know, the Western social media doesn't penetrate. 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:14.160 But Bruce, and you're talking about usually young users. Correct, 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:15.840 TikTok's used younger than. 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:20.040 Other Seventy percent of young Americans use TikTok. It's a 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:21.920 crazy number. 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:27.479 That's that's insane. So what about misinformation pushing out generated 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:31.000 misinformation that the Chinese government wants they use to create 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.679 some kind of chaos over here and division. 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:35.520 They surely can. They probably better off using Facebook like 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.080 everybody else does. I mean, that's what that's what Russia does. 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:41.640 That's what so so likely they'll use Facebook because I 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:45.079 think you know, more older people are on Facebook. But 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:48.120 sure they can use TikTok, and are they just like 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:51.120 everybody else. So again, there's no difference here, this information 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:55.240 on Twitter, this invation on Facebook, on TikTok. The question 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:59.160 which things interesting is is there a difference? You know, 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:01.800 when you hear also banned TikTok, we talk about that 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.240 because that's kind of a nutty ideas on its face, 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:09.280 they're saying there's a qualitative difference between TikTok and Facebook. 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.120 I'm not convinced there is. Well, there's a difference a 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:15.720 degree probably, but not a difference in kind. 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:22.280 But our Facebook, Instagram, the other major social media companies 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:24.080 are they American based companies. 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.680 Yes, So the big difference is the Chinese. 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:31.840 Government is TikTok, it's our spying is good, they're spying 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:32.280 no good. 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:34.920 Well, but the question is how much spying can the 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:38.120 Chinese government do using the American companies? 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:38.360 Right? 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:41.640 They can't, Right, they can't get the same amount of 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.600 bold data because they don't have that direct government line. 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:47.640 But you know, we know they try to hack into 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:50.920 these companies all the time. Google has been fending off 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:54.440 China for like a couple of decades now, usually going 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:58.920 after the Gmail accounts of Taiwanese dissidents, so you know, 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:01.000 are they in We don't know. 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:03.079 So let me ask you about this because I've read 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:07.640 that the algorithm is different for TikTok, that the algorithm 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:11.800 there is about minutes and hours of time spent, whereas 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:14.800 the others we're talking about are about clicks and engagement. 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:17.320 Is that a nuance that makes a difference? 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:23.560 It probably does, you know. So all of these Western 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:28.360 social media sites, and we'll add TikTok in the United States, right, 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:31.760 they make their money showing you ass So their goal 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.080 is to keep you on their platform as long as possible, 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:39.640 which tends to mean extreme content, things that pissue off, 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:44.600 things that are outrageous, and you know, cute puppy videos, right, 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:50.200 So all of those things are shown on all these 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:54.360 platforms to keep you engaged. Now, it's interesting the difference. 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:59.480 Apple's the one company whose business model doesn't rely on 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:00.160 spying you. 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:00.400 Right. 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:04.439 Apple makes money selling you over price electrocs. So Apple 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:09.920 systems tend not to have that addictive quality because the 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:14.160 company doesn't need addiction to make money. Wow, there's other 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:15.080 companies do. 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:15.720 Right. 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:18.719 The more you use Google, the more money they make. 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:21.360 The more you use Facebook, and the more money they 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.440 make as opposed to Apple, which is singularly different. 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:30.960 So given all this, what as a security tech guru, 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:33.920 what are you called upon most to do? 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:35.240 What do you do for these companies? 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.520 And my second part of that question is what can 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.680 what can the consumer? What can I do while I'm 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:44.480 on my social media to push back at this? 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:45.120 If anything? 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:47.120 Are you gonna hate that answer? Uh? 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:56.960 I mean, what can the consumer? 0:14:57.040 --> 0:14:59.960 What can I do while I'm on my social media 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:01.520 to push back at this? 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.520 If anything, you're gonna hate that answer? Uh? I mean 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:07.120 a lot of what I do is security consulting, you know, 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:11.280 how to networks safe? The answer your question when you asked, like, 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:14.120 as a generic user, what can I do? And the 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:18.480 answer is almost nothing, right, because your data is not 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:21.080 in your hands. Think about what your data is. Your 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:25.080 emails on Gmail, your photos are on No No, No, 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:28.760 some photo site. Your documents are in the clouds somewhere else. 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:32.800 You know, your calendar is here. Your data is no 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:38.360 longer under your control now, So all these security measures, 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:43.040 you've got to trust the companies. And that's a terrible 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:48.200 story because the companies are like pretty untrustworthy. But at 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:51.400 this point, the advice I can give you is very 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:56.160 much around the edges, because your data is elsewhere controlled 0:15:56.200 --> 0:16:00.160 by other companies with their rules. And you call up, oh, 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.040 I don't know, you know, facky and say, you know, 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:05.400 I want to know what security measures my photographs are 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:09.720 being protected by and they say, no, we won't tell you. 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:11.960 Your choice is to trust them are not. So what 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:15.400 can you do? Don't have a cell phone, don't have 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:18.640 an email address, don't have a credit card, like, and 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:23.320 that's kind of stupid advice for the first quarter twenty percent. 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.760 So I can't let me ask you this. Can I 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:31.280 Can I game my feed? Can I refuse to click 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:31.920 on stuff that. 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:33.240 I know they want me to click on? 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.960 Can I can I not be sucked in by the 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:39.720 enticements and thereby change what they send me? 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:42.560 I mean you can, like, if you stop clicking on 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:44.800 those cute puppy photos, they're going to stop sending you 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:48.200 cute bubby photos. But honestly, they're cute bubby photos. They 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:49.120 are hard not to click on. 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:52.720 But I'm thinking more about I'm thinking more about political 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:57.000 stories or cultural stories where you know it's being fed 0:16:57.040 --> 0:16:59.760 to me because they think they understand my bias. 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:02.560 And you know, maybe so. 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.240 One of the things I teach this in a policy 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:09.160 school here at Harvard, and I had students last week 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:12.960 download their Facebook and Google data. Both of those companies 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:17.720 allow you to download their data about you. Do it. 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:22.480 It's actually interesting what they have on you, how they've 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:26.640 categorized you, what they've gotten right with they've gotten wrong. Now, 0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:28.399 in the United States you don't have any ability to 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.159 correct that. In Europe you have some ability to have 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:33.600 them delete your data and correct your data. Not in 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:34.760 the US you have no recourse. 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:39.280 I downloaded on I see egregious things said, There's no 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:40.919 way to correct, no way to contact them. 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.720 Says you see posts on Facebook you wrote but never sent. 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:53.480 Can you well hold on hold on a second posted post. 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:56.240 Yes, if you wrote something and said, you know, I 0:17:56.280 --> 0:18:00.120 don't want to send that, delete it. They've got a copy. 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:02.520 We need to do. You got to testify in front 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:03.600 of Congress again. Damn it. 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.800 I you know you can see it yourself. It's it's 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:11.320 I get it. It's there. They have an idea of 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:14.080 where you live and where you work based on sort 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.320 of where you are during the day and night, and 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:18.919 of course you all have one. They know who you 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:20.720 sleep with, like are you are you able to? 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:21.160 Uh? 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:23.560 Is that something you can explain, like in a few 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:26.760 sentences about how somebody goes to download their data that way? 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:27.520 Uh? 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:29.439 You know what I tell them students is go do 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:33.000 it because it's not that hard. I mean, type into Google, 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:35.359 download your Facebook data, gives you instructions. 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:38.120 It's not you know what's so funny if you got 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:39.880 me the next question was going to ask, it would 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:42.560 be that how do you down? How do you download? 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:46.840 Because I'm now seriously, I'm I I signed up for Facebook. 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:47.959 I have never used it. 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:50.199 So I always tell anybody if you saw something of 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:51.560 me on Facebook, it ain't. 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:54.440 But knows you have Facebook collect data about you even 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:55.440 if you're not on Facebook. 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.800 Well, then may I just say them? 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:05.080 So when you testified in front of Congress, were you 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:11.439 completely frustrated when when you finished by the questions they asked, So, I'll. 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:15.520 Give you a secret unless your high profile like a Zickberg. 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:18.040 I mean the test of the congressional hearings you watch 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:22.440 on television, most of the members aren't there. They're staffers there. 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:23.520 Wait that. 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:27.800 I knew that, But that's this is a good thing. 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:31.399 The staffers are who you want to talk. They're the 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:34.240 ones who know stuff and get stuff done. You know, 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:37.320 I tend to know. I'm speaking to the staffers. So yeah, 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:40.320 the members will ask questions. There'll be questions, the staffers 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:43.200 wrote often they want to hear the answers. I'm good 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:46.240 at giving answers and non techi terms, so I'm likable. 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:47.280 You know. 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:48.840 I'll give them homework. They laugh. 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:52.560 But I want to hang myself since we started this whole. 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:58.800 Yea, but let's talk about answers. Let's talk about the 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:02.560 notion of of what we might meet and say to 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:04.119 ban Facebook. 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.359 Right, I mean I was going to ask you, how 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:07.680 would you change the laws here? 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:08.160 Yeah? 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:11.600 Okay, So there are several ways to do this. So 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:17.640 the first one is you could ban the app stores 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:20.240 from selling the app I would make from making the 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:23.280 app available, So the Apple and Google app stores app 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:26.840 is no longer available. This is like vaguely effective. It 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.639 won't affect the seventy percent of young people have already 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:33.640 installed the app. It's on their phone. Anybody who jail 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:37.160 breaks their Apple phone or uses an alternate app store 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:39.560 for Google, will they all download it? So you can 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:43.200 still do it. Presumably the kids will exchange tricks on 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:47.920 how to do this. It'll be vaguely effective. It doesn't 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:51.399 affect the website at all. You can always go to 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:55.640 TikTok through the website. So not a great idea. Let's 0:20:55.640 --> 0:21:00.840 do another one. Congress can ban US companies from doing 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.240 business with Byte dance by dance to the company that 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:06.080 would and this is what Donald Trump tried in twenty 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:10.920 twenty and the courts courts blocked it. All right, So 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:16.199 what this does is it keeps TikTok from being on 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:19.640 American infrastructure. It would have some effect. It would definitely 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:24.679 cut into TikTok's business. US advertisers couldn't pay money, but 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:28.600 adds on TikTok if it's actually subsidied that Chinese wouldn't 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:30.880 make that much of a difference. Maybe a little slower 0:21:30.880 --> 0:21:33.159 to load because the servers will be in Europe or 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:37.480 in Canada instead of in the United States. Okay, so 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:41.720 that's two. The third thing they can do is actually 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:47.879