WEBVTT - SYSK’s Fall True Crime Playlist: The Chowchilla Bus Kidnapping

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<v Speaker 1>Back in nineteen seventy six, in Chowchilla, a little town

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<v Speaker 1>smack dab in the middle of California, a school bus

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<v Speaker 1>with twenty six children aboard was hijacked and the kids

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<v Speaker 1>were held for ransom by men looking to make easy money.

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<v Speaker 1>But man, was this anything but easy for everyone involved.

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<v Speaker 1>What makes this case so famous, in addition to you

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<v Speaker 1>know the kidnapping of twenty six children on their way

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<v Speaker 1>home from school, is that the kids and the bus

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<v Speaker 1>driver were buried alive while the kidnappers waited for the ransom.

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<v Speaker 1>Why don't you join them by listening to this episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and

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<v Speaker 1>there's Charles w Chuck Bryant and Jerry's here and this

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<v Speaker 1>is stuff you should know.

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<v Speaker 2>You know what I've been singing for two days?

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<v Speaker 1>Wheels on the bus, go on and around.

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<v Speaker 2>No, that's pretty good, guess though, what donut don't don't

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<v Speaker 2>no out no, no, Chowchilla. I can't get it out

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<v Speaker 2>of my head, thet Godzilla song. Now, all I'm saying

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<v Speaker 2>over and over is Chowchilla.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a great song. Do you remember who played it?

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<v Speaker 2>Was that, like Edgar Winner Johnny Winter.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's one of the Winners. Okay, that's my guess.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay the Long Winters.

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<v Speaker 2>Definitely not the Long Winters.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So, Chuck, we're talking about a piece of Americana

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<v Speaker 1>true crime history that I had no idea about, actually,

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<v Speaker 1>and I noted though, because of the timing and because

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<v Speaker 1>of the location. I hit up my beloved former hippie

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<v Speaker 1>aunt who lived in San Francisco at the time and

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<v Speaker 1>was raising kids and said, do you remember this? She said, oh, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>I remember this big time that she had kids that

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<v Speaker 1>were about to be bus riding agent. She was not

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<v Speaker 1>very comfortable with this whole jam.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah it provided discomfort.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, that's one way to put it.

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<v Speaker 2>So did you even say what the name of it was?

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<v Speaker 1>No, it's the Chillis school bus kidnapping is what people

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<v Speaker 1>usually refer to.

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<v Speaker 2>It as, right, And I think this was a listener

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<v Speaker 2>who sent this in. And I apologize because I'd usually

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<v Speaker 2>make note of that so I can shout them out,

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<v Speaker 2>but I did not do so in this case, so

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<v Speaker 2>I missed. I know, boo hiss, But yeah, this was

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<v Speaker 2>in nineteen seventy six and still stands according to the sources,

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<v Speaker 2>I saw as the largest domestic kidnapping in US history.

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<v Speaker 1>So my aunt says, oh yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>She also said she was not very into it.

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<v Speaker 1>I was not very comfortable by that.

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<v Speaker 2>It's very disappointing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the largest mass kidnapping for ransom. I'm not sure

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<v Speaker 1>why that's a quality of fire, but I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I saw the same thing too that it

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<v Speaker 1>still stands. And it was like the idea that the

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<v Speaker 1>most of anything happened to this little town of Chowchilla

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<v Speaker 1>in the San Joaquin Valley, about one hundred and fifty

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<v Speaker 1>miles southeast of San Francisco in and of itself is significant,

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<v Speaker 1>but it was a really terrible like most of event

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<v Speaker 1>that happened to this poor little town, as we'll see.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, So should we just start on July fifteenth,

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy six, Yes, all right, we'll paint a picture

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<v Speaker 2>for you. You already mentioned where it was between Fresno

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<v Speaker 2>and San Francisco, out in a part of California that

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<v Speaker 2>had some very very small towns at the time. It's

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<v Speaker 2>hard to imagine anywhere in California having forty six hundred

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<v Speaker 2>people living there. But that was the case in the

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<v Speaker 2>mid seventies in Chowchilla, And it was the next to

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<v Speaker 2>the last day of summer school, and a bus was

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<v Speaker 2>being driven after a because it was summer school, a

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<v Speaker 2>little fun day trip to a swimming pool, driven by

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<v Speaker 2>fifty five year old Ed Ray.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, who was a farmer there in chaw Chill himself.

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<v Speaker 1>Apparently he bailed hey like nobody's business. He was married

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<v Speaker 1>to a woman named Odessa who was a bank teller

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<v Speaker 1>at the Bank of America, and he was apparently quite

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<v Speaker 1>happy being a farmer and then driving kids around on

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<v Speaker 1>the school bus, because even after this he continued on

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<v Speaker 1>for another dozen years as the school bus driver.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, he had only dropped off a few kids

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<v Speaker 2>at this point, and there were nineteen girls and seven

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<v Speaker 2>boys on board from five to fourteen, and notably the

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<v Speaker 2>fourteen year old because he will factor in pretty heavily here.

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<v Speaker 2>His name was Mike Marshall. He wasn't even supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>be on that bus. He usually got picked up by

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<v Speaker 2>his mom, but he got busted the night before with

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<v Speaker 2>some beer and his mom said, your punishment, you got

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<v Speaker 2>to ride that school bus home yep, tomorrow and after

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<v Speaker 2>school or after the trip, he was like, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>even know what bus to take because I don't do this.

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<v Speaker 2>But he knew who Ray was, and so he went

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<v Speaker 2>to ed Ray and said, hey, man, will you I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know if this is my bus or not, Bill

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<v Speaker 2>you take me home? And Edray is ed Ray, so

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<v Speaker 2>he went sure, sureboard, so thank goodness he said that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So after that that third stop, there were twenty

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<v Speaker 1>six kids and ed Ray on board. And ed Ray

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<v Speaker 1>was continuing along his route and he turned on to

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<v Speaker 1>a street called Avenue twenty one, and as he turned

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<v Speaker 1>on to Avenue twenty one, ed Ray found that there

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<v Speaker 1>was a white van blocking the road, and apparently he

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<v Speaker 1>started to go around it, and then I guess thought

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<v Speaker 1>the better of it, and I wanted to stop and

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<v Speaker 1>see if they needed any help instead. And when he did,

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<v Speaker 1>he realized very quickly that he was actually being hijacked,

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<v Speaker 1>because when you see a man with a long gun

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<v Speaker 1>and pantyhose on his head, you're probably being hijacked.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right. The first thing he saw was this one

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<v Speaker 2>guy who said open the door, and then he realized

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<v Speaker 2>there were a couple of other guys, samem I think

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<v Speaker 2>they had shotguns with the pantyhose, and they said, get

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<v Speaker 2>in the back. We'll take over the driving from here.

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<v Speaker 2>If you watched the movie, did you see any of that?

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<v Speaker 1>No? No, I haven't yet.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll get to it. Then there's a Lifetime movie that

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<v Speaker 2>came out in the nineties. I think ninety three looks

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<v Speaker 2>like it was made in eighty three somehow. That is

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<v Speaker 2>on YouTube, and I highly recommend scrubbing through it. I

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't say watch the whole thing because I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>if you'll be able to. But Carl Malden, yeah, play

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<v Speaker 2>ed ray and I don't know if it's true to

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<v Speaker 2>the story, but he gave them a lot of guff

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<v Speaker 2>about getting out of that driver's seat in the movie.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh really Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure if that happened in real life or not.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a Malden improv if I've ever heard one.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yes, And I'm not getting out of my seat right.

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<v Speaker 1>My feet hurt.

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<v Speaker 2>So he eventually did, though, and they drove. They drove

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<v Speaker 2>that bus followed by the van for a bit, and

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<v Speaker 2>then eventually transferred those kids to that van and another

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<v Speaker 2>identical van, and you know, they I think we should

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<v Speaker 2>point out a few smart things these guys did along

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<v Speaker 2>the way, because they mainly did dumb things. But the

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<v Speaker 2>kidnappers did make them jump from the school bus to

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<v Speaker 2>the van so they wouldn't leave footprints.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and these in these vans, they had all the

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<v Speaker 1>kids and ed Ray in the vans now two vans,

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<v Speaker 1>and they had kind of like deck these vans out.

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<v Speaker 1>It was kind of a shoddy manner of adding plywood

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<v Speaker 1>partitions to keep the kids from getting out from anybody

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<v Speaker 1>being able to see. And I think they painted over

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<v Speaker 1>the windows. And then they drove those kids around for

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<v Speaker 1>eleven hours in the backs of those vans, with no

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<v Speaker 1>potty breaks, no food, no water, no nothing. They just

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<v Speaker 1>drove them around for eleven hours in July, the middle

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<v Speaker 1>of July, in the San Joaquin Valley, pretty mercilessly, before

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<v Speaker 1>finally arriving at the destination, which ultimately was only one

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<v Speaker 1>hundred miles away from where the kids had been kidnapped.

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<v Speaker 1>I think they just wanted to disorient the kids.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I think that was kind of smart m HM

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<v Speaker 2>as well, because they could have been, you know, eleven

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<v Speaker 2>hours away if they managed to escape or something. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>one of the girls years later did say that she

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<v Speaker 2>saw through a crack that they were up there with

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<v Speaker 2>the ac go and drinking sodas and have a good

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<v Speaker 2>old time, and the kids and ed Rayer back there

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<v Speaker 2>just suffering, just terrified obviously of what's going on.

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<v Speaker 1>Right. That was Jennifer brown Hyde who said that, and

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<v Speaker 1>she's not very happy with this whole thing. It's still

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<v Speaker 1>to this day from what I understand.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, as you could imagine.

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<v Speaker 1>So finally, at three thirty am on Friday morning, they

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<v Speaker 1>were hijacked around after three point thirty on three PM

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<v Speaker 1>on Thursday. They finally stopped driving at three thirty in

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<v Speaker 1>the morning Friday morning, and they arrive at a rock quarry.

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<v Speaker 1>They're in Livermore, California. Apparently again it's one hundred miles

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<v Speaker 1>away from Chowchilla. And this is the what the what

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<v Speaker 1>the kidnapper see is the final destination for these kids

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<v Speaker 1>until they're ransomed off, until the authorities cough up the money.

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<v Speaker 1>And what the what they've done is bury a moving

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<v Speaker 1>van line trailer, so like a huge moving truck, the

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<v Speaker 1>trailer part of it. They buried it a total of

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<v Speaker 1>twelve feet underground and have covered it with four feet

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<v Speaker 1>of dirt, and they've opened a hole, put a ladder

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<v Speaker 1>in and told the kids get down there, and ed

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<v Speaker 1>ray too.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, And as the kids were going down and

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<v Speaker 2>this kind of points to the direction of how dumb

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<v Speaker 2>these guys were and how unprepared they were, even though

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<v Speaker 2>they it turns out, would have planned this thing for

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<v Speaker 2>well over a year. They wrote down their names and

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<v Speaker 2>their phone numbers in contact in parents' names, not on

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<v Speaker 2>a clipboard legal pad, but on the back of a

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<v Speaker 2>Jack in the box wrapper. So and then they took

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<v Speaker 2>apparently some kind of piece of clothing from each kid,

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<v Speaker 2>because the idea was, once again is that they have many,

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<v Speaker 2>many kids that should bring many many monies and dollar bills.

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<v Speaker 1>Their way, exactly, and the fact that their kids means

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<v Speaker 1>that people do anything to keep them safe. So these

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<v Speaker 1>guys figure they've got a pretty good payday with twenty

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<v Speaker 1>six kids that they're now holding hostage in a buried

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<v Speaker 1>moving van trailer. And in the trailer they had done

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<v Speaker 1>a little more than they had in the van, so

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<v Speaker 1>they had peanut butter cheerios, some bread down there, some water,

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<v Speaker 1>but definitely not enough to keep all those people alive

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<v Speaker 1>for a very long time. They'd also thought of bathrooms.

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<v Speaker 1>They made bathrooms in the wheel wells, and they dropped

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<v Speaker 1>a ventilation tubes with some fans to force air into

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<v Speaker 1>the into the van. So there was fresh air down there,

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<v Speaker 1>but not a lot from what I understand.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's right. And the one faithful mistake they made

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<v Speaker 2>was that for their comfort they included some old box

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<v Speaker 2>springs and mattresses and stuff for them to sit on

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<v Speaker 2>and lay on, which would end up being their undoing.

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<v Speaker 2>Should we take a break.

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<v Speaker 1>I think we should, because now you've got twenty six

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<v Speaker 1>kids buried in a buried trailer right now in Livermore, California,

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<v Speaker 1>at three point thirty in the morning. Not a good

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<v Speaker 1>thing to happen.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right. So we'll pick up with what's going on

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<v Speaker 2>in Chowchilla right after this. All right, So in Chauchilla,

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<v Speaker 2>that bus doesn't come back, so obviously everyone freaks out

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<v Speaker 2>pretty quickly. An entire school bus full of kids and

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<v Speaker 2>a very trusted man about town like people knew, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a small town. People knew ed Ray and he

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<v Speaker 2>was a good guy by all accounts. They were all missing.

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<v Speaker 2>So the very first thing that happens is they locate

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<v Speaker 2>the school bus, which had been hidden with some bamboo

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<v Speaker 2>and camouflage. But they did find the bus right away,

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<v Speaker 2>which you know, on one hand, that's good because they

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<v Speaker 2>have a lead. On the other hand, that just sends

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<v Speaker 2>this thing into the stratosphere as far as panic goes, sure,

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<v Speaker 2>because where are these kids?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I saw also that the bus had basically

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<v Speaker 1>no clues on it whatsoever. So it's like, we found

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<v Speaker 1>the bus, but that doesn't help at all. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sure they were panicked by that. So it became

0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:12.880
<v Speaker 1>pretty clear pretty early on that the child Chilli sheriff,

0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:16.280
<v Speaker 1>a guy named Ed Gates, was going to need some help.

0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:19.520
<v Speaker 1>So the FBI came to town. Apparently they booked every

0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:23.120
<v Speaker 1>one of the hotel rooms in the two hotels in town.

0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:28.600
<v Speaker 1>They brought like all the state law enforcement agencies, like

0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:31.480
<v Speaker 1>everybody just converged on this town to help out because

0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:36.360
<v Speaker 1>it made national news. Like almost instantaneously, I saw somewhere

0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.560
<v Speaker 1>chuck that like this is during the bi centennial, and

0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:41.840
<v Speaker 1>the bi centennial just been going on and going on

0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:44.800
<v Speaker 1>and going on, and there was still bisentennial stuff going on,

0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:47.760
<v Speaker 1>and this stopped it. Like this kidnapping. News of this

0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:51.600
<v Speaker 1>kidnapping stopped the bisentennial celebration. Deadnis tracks. It was the

0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:53.600
<v Speaker 1>end of it, not just for this town but for

0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:54.480
<v Speaker 1>the whole country.

0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:56.559
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I mean this went right up to the

0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.360
<v Speaker 2>President Ford at the time, and obviously Governor Jerry Round.

0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.480
<v Speaker 2>So they threw everything they could at it. The media

0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:09.400
<v Speaker 2>descended upon chow Chilla like super fast, and because it's

0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.679
<v Speaker 2>the media, you start getting these these terrible stories about like,

0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:15.240
<v Speaker 2>well maybe because you know, they'd never caught Zodiac and

0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:17.600
<v Speaker 2>this was just six or seven years I think after

0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:20.240
<v Speaker 2>the final what would end up being the final killing,

0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:23.360
<v Speaker 2>so they said maybe it was a Zodiac because they

0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:25.880
<v Speaker 2>made reference to wiping He made reference to wiping out

0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:29.400
<v Speaker 2>a school bus at one point. Any tip that came

0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:31.200
<v Speaker 2>in they had to follow. There's a shoe on the

0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:33.200
<v Speaker 2>side of the road, so they have to track down

0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:36.920
<v Speaker 2>that tip. There was a novel in nineteen fifty eight

0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:40.640
<v Speaker 2>called The Day the Children Vanished, where the gang of

0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.800
<v Speaker 2>people abduct a busload of kids just to bring people

0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:46.400
<v Speaker 2>out of town and distract them while they robbed a bank. Yeah,

0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:48.640
<v Speaker 2>Ray's wife worked at the bank. Like you said, sod,

0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:52.080
<v Speaker 2>They put a bank under surveillance, so there were you know,

0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:54.360
<v Speaker 2>it was I don't know if I was described it

0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.600
<v Speaker 2>as a panic because the FBI was on the scene

0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:01.520
<v Speaker 2>in the state californ on your Bureau and Investigation, so

0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.120
<v Speaker 2>they were doing good work. But there was a frenzy

0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:04.760
<v Speaker 2>of activity.

0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:08.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I think the sheriff had all the help

0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:11.480
<v Speaker 1>he possibly needed to chase down all these leads and everything.

0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.560
<v Speaker 1>But from what I saw, there was just not much

0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:17.560
<v Speaker 1>to go on. There were there they were just dead

0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:21.280
<v Speaker 1>ends left and right, and so like there was, there

0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:24.360
<v Speaker 1>was a just an enormous amount of panic and terror

0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:28.040
<v Speaker 1>in the town. Families started converging on the firehouse, the

0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:30.800
<v Speaker 1>local firehouse for some reason, I'm not sure why, but

0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:34.760
<v Speaker 1>it became like the meeting place for anybody concerned about

0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.760
<v Speaker 1>the fate of the kids, and this is where news

0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:40.600
<v Speaker 1>would first be broken. And I think the media probably

0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:43.520
<v Speaker 1>hung around there too, So you can only begin to

0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:47.000
<v Speaker 1>imagine how anxious the parents were, and then the town

0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:49.880
<v Speaker 1>and then apparently the whole country was was anxious as well,

0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:54.240
<v Speaker 1>and so it was really kind of surprising when all

0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:58.800
<v Speaker 1>of a sudden, at about I think about eight pm

0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.960
<v Speaker 1>the next night, Saturday, so the kids have been gone

0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:09.280
<v Speaker 1>for almost about Carrie the one about thirty hours, thirty

0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:12.640
<v Speaker 1>two hours, something like that at this point, thirty two

0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.760
<v Speaker 1>hours of terror, when all of a sudden at that quarry,

0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:18.680
<v Speaker 1>some people are working and a man and a bunch

0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:20.880
<v Speaker 1>of kids run over and it turns out to be

0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:24.600
<v Speaker 1>the kidnapping victims who just present themselves to a security

0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:28.360
<v Speaker 1>guard at the quarry in Livermore, who gets on the

0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:30.360
<v Speaker 1>phone and says, we found them.

0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:36.320
<v Speaker 2>That's right, amazing, And you would think, well, pretty sensational story,

0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:38.760
<v Speaker 2>but it was very short span of time and all

0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:40.560
<v Speaker 2>the kids were fine, So why is it really a story.

0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:43.880
<v Speaker 2>It's a story because as we'll see, the trauma that

0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:47.600
<v Speaker 2>they suffered emotionally and how it went down in who

0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:50.640
<v Speaker 2>these people were who kidnapped them. But before we get

0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:55.840
<v Speaker 2>to those dumb dumbs, let's talk about the escape. They

0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.160
<v Speaker 2>were down there about twelve hours and running out of

0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:01.680
<v Speaker 2>food and water. The roof, you know, they had a

0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:03.480
<v Speaker 2>lot of weight on this moving van roof and those

0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:06.760
<v Speaker 2>things aren't super strong, so this thing was, you know,

0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:09.040
<v Speaker 2>kind of dented in and seemed like it mike cave in,

0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.880
<v Speaker 2>and they were worried that they just couldn't stay there basically,

0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.480
<v Speaker 2>and this is where the story I mean, I guess

0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:21.080
<v Speaker 2>we'll cover both points of view, the immediate history and aftermath.

0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:24.080
<v Speaker 2>Ed Ray saved the day because he was the only

0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:26.880
<v Speaker 2>adult there, so obviously he was the one that broke

0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:30.040
<v Speaker 2>those kids out of there. Years later, you know, we

0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:33.240
<v Speaker 2>mentioned Mike Marshall, the fourteen year old that wasn't supposed

0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:35.240
<v Speaker 2>to be on that bus, and he was far and

0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:38.399
<v Speaker 2>away the oldest kid there and the most capable to help.

0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.480
<v Speaker 2>Years later, after a while of this story of Ed Ray,

0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:46.040
<v Speaker 2>he finally came out and said, oh, you know, Edray's

0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.040
<v Speaker 2>a good guy. I want to disparage him, but like

0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:50.879
<v Speaker 2>it was my idea and I was the one that

0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:53.679
<v Speaker 2>really led the charge to escape, and he was a

0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:57.119
<v Speaker 2>big mess, kind of crying in his hands that they

0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:00.439
<v Speaker 2>were doomed and dead, and he got on board and

0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:04.399
<v Speaker 2>helped me. But it was really me. And the reason

0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:06.480
<v Speaker 2>I kind of believe that after reading all the accounts

0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:09.000
<v Speaker 2>is it took many years for him to kind of

0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:11.639
<v Speaker 2>come out with this, and it felt like he even

0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:16.960
<v Speaker 2>felt bad for saying so. So I think that Mike

0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:19.320
<v Speaker 2>Marshall in fact did lead the charge to escape.

0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:23.119
<v Speaker 1>Well, his account was corroborated by another guy named Larry

0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:26.600
<v Speaker 1>Park who wrote a book called The Chowchilla School Bus

0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:29.960
<v Speaker 1>Kidnapping Colon Why Me And I don't know if he

0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.720
<v Speaker 1>corroborated in that or in an interview later on, but

0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:35.639
<v Speaker 1>he was there and he said that that's true, that

0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:39.439
<v Speaker 1>that's how it went down. On the other perspective, the

0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:43.320
<v Speaker 1>fact that like when Ed Ray like lived the rest

0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:45.720
<v Speaker 1>of his life, he stayed in Chowchilla. Most of those

0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:48.600
<v Speaker 1>people kids who've been kidnapped with him, stayed in Chowchilla.

0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:52.880
<v Speaker 1>When he was dying, Those same kids as adults now

0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:57.879
<v Speaker 1>came and visited him his bedside, say goodbye. There's plenty

0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.400
<v Speaker 1>of opportunity for you know, little town to start talking,

0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:03.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, whispers and that kind of thing, and that

0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:05.920
<v Speaker 1>doesn't seem to have happened. He seems to have died

0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:09.679
<v Speaker 1>considered a hero as well. So my take on a

0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:13.720
<v Speaker 1>Chuck is that he may have been a gloom and

0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:16.320
<v Speaker 1>doom about their prospects to begin with. And maybe it

0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:19.480
<v Speaker 1>really was Mike Marshall who said, no, we need to

0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:21.359
<v Speaker 1>we need to try to get out of here. But

0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:24.119
<v Speaker 1>even Mike Marshall said after a while once Mike Marshall

0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.280
<v Speaker 1>started to try. Ed Ray joined in and started helping,

0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:29.359
<v Speaker 1>and that they might not have been able to drink. Yeah,

0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:30.879
<v Speaker 1>they might not have been able to get out had

0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:33.640
<v Speaker 1>a grown man been helping them, like push against this.

0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:36.399
<v Speaker 2>Totally agree. I think we're I think we park our

0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:37.479
<v Speaker 2>cars in the same garage here.

0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:39.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, look at them, they're both.

0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:43.360
<v Speaker 2>Uh So here's how they got out. They took those

0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:47.080
<v Speaker 2>mattresses and stacked them up, and they took apart one

0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:49.400
<v Speaker 2>of they kind of smashed one of the box springs,

0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:53.960
<v Speaker 2>which are framed in wood, and they started using that

0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:56.760
<v Speaker 2>wood as like a sort of makeshift crowbar to try

0:19:56.800 --> 0:19:59.960
<v Speaker 2>and what these guys kidnappers had done as they put

0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:02.000
<v Speaker 2>sort of iron plate I've seen manhole, but it was

0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:06.200
<v Speaker 2>some kind of heavy metal plate over the thing, along

0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:10.560
<v Speaker 2>with two industrial tractor batteries which are super heavy, and

0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:13.760
<v Speaker 2>then dirt, so there's ended up being several hundred pounds

0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:17.000
<v Speaker 2>kind of weighing this thing down this escape patch. But

0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:19.560
<v Speaker 2>they were able after hours and hours to finally kind

0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:22.760
<v Speaker 2>of use that wood to pry open just enough to

0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:26.600
<v Speaker 2>where they see starlight and dirt leaking in, and with

0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.639
<v Speaker 2>the help of ed Ray and his you know, manly

0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:32.760
<v Speaker 2>man strength. They were able to climb out of there.

0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:33.720
<v Speaker 2>Mike Marshall was.

0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:36.840
<v Speaker 1>So Mike Marshall climbed out and then from that moment

0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:39.960
<v Speaker 1>on and so apparently also ed Ray was really worried,

0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:42.080
<v Speaker 1>and I guess Mike Marshall was too, but it was

0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:44.240
<v Speaker 1>not a deterrent for him. But they were worried that

0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:47.280
<v Speaker 1>there was at least one or more of the kidnappers

0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.720
<v Speaker 1>hanging around with a gun. What was going on, Yeah,

0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:53.119
<v Speaker 1>so there was a good chance in their minds that

0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:55.080
<v Speaker 1>they were going to poke through and just be shot

0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:58.399
<v Speaker 1>on site. Sure, so they were worried about that. And luckily,

0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:00.280
<v Speaker 1>when Mike Marshall poked his head up, he's so that

0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:02.840
<v Speaker 1>there was no one around. There's nobody guarding it. It

0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:06.399
<v Speaker 1>turned out that they had long since left and that

0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:09.960
<v Speaker 1>so Mike Marshall had ed Ray start handing kids up

0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:12.480
<v Speaker 1>to him, and they got all the kids out and

0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:15.240
<v Speaker 1>then ed Ray out and Mike Marshall ran into the

0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:18.640
<v Speaker 1>woods to hide. So in case the kidnappers were still around,

0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:20.960
<v Speaker 1>they just hadn't seen them yet, and those kids were

0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:23.640
<v Speaker 1>intercepted by him. At least Mike Marshall would be able

0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:27.239
<v Speaker 1>to run away through the woods and get help. But

0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:30.320
<v Speaker 1>it turned out the kidnappers weren't there, and somebody, luckily

0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:33.320
<v Speaker 1>was still working at the quarry I believe, including a

0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:35.800
<v Speaker 1>security guard when ed Ray and the kids ran up

0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:39.920
<v Speaker 1>and presented themselves, So that's how and then I guess

0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:42.639
<v Speaker 1>the guy got on the phone, and within moments of

0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:45.480
<v Speaker 1>that happening, the news made it back to chow Chilla

0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:47.320
<v Speaker 1>that they'd all been found safe and they were all

0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:53.480
<v Speaker 1>alive and generally unharmed, and ed Ray was basically automatically

0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:54.440
<v Speaker 1>hailed as a hero.

0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:00.399
<v Speaker 2>Carl Maldon was certainly portrayed as the hero in the

0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:01.280
<v Speaker 2>Lifetime movie.

0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:03.120
<v Speaker 1>They said, do you have anything you'd like to say,

0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:04.880
<v Speaker 1>and he said, just that my feet hurt.

0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:07.960
<v Speaker 2>And you know, we again want to point out this

0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:13.120
<v Speaker 2>was thirty six hours from beginning to end. But these

0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:16.919
<v Speaker 2>kids were didn't know what was going on above ground.

0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:20.600
<v Speaker 2>They were hot, they were, you know, stripping down to

0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:23.760
<v Speaker 2>their underwear. Carl Malden was in his underwear even in

0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:27.160
<v Speaker 2>the movie Nice. They were running out of food and water.

0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:31.719
<v Speaker 2>So as a five to fourteen year old, I mean,

0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:34.479
<v Speaker 2>ed Ray was in hysterics. You're you think you're going

0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:36.440
<v Speaker 2>to die down there. So it may not have been,

0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:39.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, a kidnapping that lasted days and weeks, but

0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:43.399
<v Speaker 2>that doesn't minimize the trauma that these kids suffered down there,

0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:47.000
<v Speaker 2>completely not knowing what was going on above ground, and

0:22:47.359 --> 0:22:49.720
<v Speaker 2>daring to escape, not knowing if they were all of

0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:51.480
<v Speaker 2>a sudden that van was going to come speeding down

0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:54.399
<v Speaker 2>the road. After like, it took a while until they

0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:55.560
<v Speaker 2>felt safe, I think.

0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:57.320
<v Speaker 1>And then on top of that, Chuck, You'd said it

0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:00.760
<v Speaker 1>kind of earlier, but I think it really bears repeating.

0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:03.720
<v Speaker 1>They were really worried that the roof of this thing

0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:06.600
<v Speaker 1>was going to cave in. Four feet of dirt on

0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:09.560
<v Speaker 1>top of a moving van, roof that had been in

0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:13.119
<v Speaker 1>the in the perpetrator's defense had been reinforced with lumber,

0:23:13.160 --> 0:23:16.800
<v Speaker 1>but not very well. That's a lot of weight hanging

0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:19.600
<v Speaker 1>pushing down on this And if you see pictures of

0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:22.360
<v Speaker 1>what the thing looked like from inside, I could see

0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:24.200
<v Speaker 1>how they would have been very nervous that the thing

0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:26.639
<v Speaker 1>was going to cave in on them and crush them.

0:23:26.960 --> 0:23:29.800
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, like the pictures of it afterward, that roof

0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:31.760
<v Speaker 2>was in the process of caving in.

0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:35.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there was very nerve wracking.

0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:38.520
<v Speaker 2>Of course, if that would have happened, the dirt probably

0:23:38.520 --> 0:23:40.800
<v Speaker 2>would have caved in and gotten some of them dirty

0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:41.760
<v Speaker 2>and then they could crawl halty.

0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:43.359
<v Speaker 1>I hope, so hopefully that's how.

0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:45.360
<v Speaker 2>Who knows, but you know, like I said, they didn't

0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:47.480
<v Speaker 2>know what was going on down there, No they didn't.

0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:51.560
<v Speaker 1>So but now they're free, they're they're safe, and the

0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:56.640
<v Speaker 1>authorities go get them, the FBI, the sheriff, everybody's interviewing them.

0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:59.359
<v Speaker 1>This is ours. It's more hours for the parents back

0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:02.040
<v Speaker 1>in chill chill having to wait. And then there was

0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:06.040
<v Speaker 1>a greyhound bus that went and got them and brought

0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:08.160
<v Speaker 1>them back. It was pretty sweet. There was a lot

0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:12.000
<v Speaker 1>of donations going on, like apparently Pacific Bell donated not

0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:14.760
<v Speaker 1>just new phones, but new phone lines because there were

0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:17.360
<v Speaker 1>so many calls being made by the authorities and by

0:24:17.400 --> 0:24:21.600
<v Speaker 1>the press, which will factor in a second. They the

0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:25.400
<v Speaker 1>greyhound bus lines donated that bus ride, which is worth mentioning.

0:24:26.840 --> 0:24:31.760
<v Speaker 1>I guess the FBI donated their time. Who knows, now they.

0:24:31.640 --> 0:24:33.560
<v Speaker 3>Get bade, But there was a okay, there was a

0:24:33.560 --> 0:24:35.000
<v Speaker 3>lot of there's just like.

0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:38.960
<v Speaker 1>A lot of banding together to support this town as

0:24:39.000 --> 0:24:40.919
<v Speaker 1>they were going through this, And I just thought it

0:24:40.960 --> 0:24:43.080
<v Speaker 1>was cool. There was a Greyhound bus that rolled up

0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:45.280
<v Speaker 1>with everybody inside and they got off and they're like,

0:24:45.320 --> 0:24:46.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm never getting on one of those again.

0:24:48.160 --> 0:24:50.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, it did kind of wonder. I was like, maybe

0:24:50.000 --> 0:24:52.679
<v Speaker 2>we should send like a few or not even vans.

0:24:53.200 --> 0:24:58.600
<v Speaker 2>Send twelve cars, right, no buses, no vans. M that

0:24:58.800 --> 0:24:59.320
<v Speaker 2>you know what I'm saying.

0:24:59.359 --> 0:25:01.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I get you're saying. We're just making walk.

0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:06.280
<v Speaker 2>And of course the kids got good to Disneyland.

0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:07.680
<v Speaker 1>That was a big one.

0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:10.560
<v Speaker 2>You got a heroes welcome, they got a parade, they

0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:13.840
<v Speaker 2>got to go to Disneyland, and it was as soon

0:25:13.880 --> 0:25:16.800
<v Speaker 2>as the town went from the saddest place on Earth

0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:18.560
<v Speaker 2>to the happiest place on Earth in the span of

0:25:18.640 --> 0:25:19.439
<v Speaker 2>thirty six hours.

0:25:19.480 --> 0:25:22.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they had a huge feast. I saw that Ed

0:25:23.040 --> 0:25:28.160
<v Speaker 1>Ray won a vacation, that he appeared on Hollywood Squares,

0:25:28.240 --> 0:25:31.920
<v Speaker 1>which is that's peak, that's peak exposure in the mid

0:25:32.000 --> 0:25:36.080
<v Speaker 1>seventy six. Sure, and Chuck, there's one other little fact

0:25:36.119 --> 0:25:38.879
<v Speaker 1>that we have to say about this, that Robert Goolay

0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:43.120
<v Speaker 1>recorded a song called the Ballad of Chow Chill a Ray.

0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:48.040
<v Speaker 1>It's so obscure it is not on YouTube. Some either

0:25:48.280 --> 0:25:51.520
<v Speaker 1>cursed or Blessed Soul put it on SoundCloud.

0:25:52.040 --> 0:25:54.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you can find there's a cover version on YouTube.

0:25:54.840 --> 0:25:57.840
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, from another person I couldn't find. I recommend

0:25:57.880 --> 0:26:03.359
<v Speaker 2>the SoundCloud goolay version. It is. It is a product

0:26:03.359 --> 0:26:05.119
<v Speaker 2>of the nineteen seventies. In every way.

0:26:05.359 --> 0:26:06.399
<v Speaker 1>It's unlistenable.

0:26:07.720 --> 0:26:09.040
<v Speaker 2>I made it through most of it.

0:26:09.480 --> 0:26:10.760
<v Speaker 1>Did you make it through all of it?

0:26:11.960 --> 0:26:13.320
<v Speaker 2>I made it through most of it. Then I skipped

0:26:13.320 --> 0:26:16.359
<v Speaker 2>to the end. Okay, it was something else because it's

0:26:16.400 --> 0:26:20.080
<v Speaker 2>sort of like disco, But it's also that very seventies

0:26:20.080 --> 0:26:24.320
<v Speaker 2>thing when they wrote these story songs like about the

0:26:24.680 --> 0:26:28.040
<v Speaker 2>kid jumping off of the tatcha Hatchi bridge or whatever,

0:26:28.280 --> 0:26:32.760
<v Speaker 2>not tatcha Hatchi what was it? Billy Joe McAllister, Like

0:26:32.960 --> 0:26:35.120
<v Speaker 2>they wrote these songs in the seventies, these weird sort

0:26:35.119 --> 0:26:39.919
<v Speaker 2>of folk story songs. A ballad, yeah, but not. I

0:26:39.920 --> 0:26:41.640
<v Speaker 2>mean a ballad can be like a love song. These

0:26:41.640 --> 0:26:43.040
<v Speaker 2>were like folk stories.

0:26:43.119 --> 0:26:47.720
<v Speaker 1>I thought a ballad meant it was like told the story.

0:26:47.840 --> 0:26:50.040
<v Speaker 2>Maybe, but I think of ballads is love songs.

0:26:49.760 --> 0:26:52.520
<v Speaker 1>Surely, but a love story right.

0:26:54.480 --> 0:26:56.960
<v Speaker 2>Like the Air Supply wrote ballads, They didn't write songs

0:26:57.000 --> 0:27:00.240
<v Speaker 2>about folk heroes jumping off of bridges. You know they

0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:00.720
<v Speaker 2>should have.

0:27:00.920 --> 0:27:04.600
<v Speaker 1>Sure, well, I don't know. There's really nothing Air Supply

0:27:04.680 --> 0:27:07.360
<v Speaker 1>could have done to have improved their game. They were

0:27:07.400 --> 0:27:09.960
<v Speaker 1>pretty much still sound great. Yeah. One of the best

0:27:09.960 --> 0:27:12.040
<v Speaker 1>concerts I ever saw in my life was Air Supply

0:27:12.440 --> 0:27:13.879
<v Speaker 1>in Jacksonville, Florida.

0:27:14.240 --> 0:27:14.880
<v Speaker 2>It's amazing.

0:27:15.400 --> 0:27:19.760
<v Speaker 1>It was. It was amazing. I said it before and

0:27:19.760 --> 0:27:22.760
<v Speaker 1>I'll say it again. It was like the fabric of

0:27:22.880 --> 0:27:25.720
<v Speaker 1>reality was coming apart at the seams and we were

0:27:25.840 --> 0:27:29.480
<v Speaker 1>right right there to witness it. It was so cool.

0:27:30.240 --> 0:27:31.920
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know you took ecstasy that show.

0:27:32.240 --> 0:27:35.000
<v Speaker 1>I didn't. That was what's what's so significant about it.

0:27:35.040 --> 0:27:36.280
<v Speaker 1>We were totally sober.

0:27:36.840 --> 0:27:41.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what was it about the Was it just songs

0:27:41.440 --> 0:27:42.639
<v Speaker 2>from your childhood or something?

0:27:42.920 --> 0:27:44.960
<v Speaker 1>No, it was, I mean, yes, that was part of

0:27:45.000 --> 0:27:46.760
<v Speaker 1>it. It was great to hear all those songs and see

0:27:46.800 --> 0:27:49.840
<v Speaker 1>them live. It was the chemistry between the two dudes

0:27:51.280 --> 0:27:53.640
<v Speaker 1>they still got it after all these years is really

0:27:53.680 --> 0:27:58.120
<v Speaker 1>neat to see. And but what really kind of made

0:27:58.119 --> 0:28:01.600
<v Speaker 1>it unreal was it was it almost had the same

0:28:01.760 --> 0:28:06.439
<v Speaker 1>feeling as like a really energetic tent revival, Like people

0:28:06.480 --> 0:28:11.639
<v Speaker 1>were wandering down the aisles, like you could tell they

0:28:11.680 --> 0:28:14.800
<v Speaker 1>were moving, not necessarily of their own will. They were

0:28:14.800 --> 0:28:18.720
<v Speaker 1>being drawn towards the stage. It was bizarre. It was

0:28:18.840 --> 0:28:22.280
<v Speaker 1>so cool to see people were just out of their

0:28:22.359 --> 0:28:25.000
<v Speaker 1>minds at this air Supply show and like we're I

0:28:25.080 --> 0:28:27.119
<v Speaker 1>don't think any of them were on next to see either.

0:28:27.240 --> 0:28:29.880
<v Speaker 1>I think like everybody was like people were with their

0:28:29.920 --> 0:28:32.840
<v Speaker 1>moms or with their kids, or it was just a neat,

0:28:33.080 --> 0:28:34.960
<v Speaker 1>neat show. I'll never forget it ever.

0:28:35.720 --> 0:28:39.200
<v Speaker 2>Amazing. So go see Air Supply and I'm sure they're

0:28:39.200 --> 0:28:40.920
<v Speaker 2>playing a third rate casino near you.

0:28:41.440 --> 0:28:43.720
<v Speaker 1>Probably they definitely do the work.

0:28:43.760 --> 0:28:45.920
<v Speaker 2>For sure, they supply you with more than air though.

0:28:45.920 --> 0:28:46.520
<v Speaker 2>It sounds like.

0:28:46.600 --> 0:28:50.640
<v Speaker 1>Dude, and the guy's voice still is one hundred percent

0:28:50.840 --> 0:28:53.520
<v Speaker 1>as good as it was in the seventies, which is pretty.

0:28:53.240 --> 0:28:55.920
<v Speaker 2>Muching some I was watching some VIDs the other day,

0:28:56.080 --> 0:28:59.280
<v Speaker 2>live VIDs of them recently. It's a good thing to do.

0:28:59.400 --> 0:29:03.120
<v Speaker 2>Sit around, but definitely check out the song on SoundCloud.

0:29:03.200 --> 0:29:05.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, and listen to as much of it as

0:29:05.520 --> 0:29:05.840
<v Speaker 2>you can.

0:29:06.320 --> 0:29:08.360
<v Speaker 1>You won't make it all the way through the Ballad

0:29:08.400 --> 0:29:11.120
<v Speaker 1>of Child Chiller Ray. It's so bad. Now I understand

0:29:11.160 --> 0:29:14.120
<v Speaker 1>why Elvis would shoot the TV whenever Robert Goulay came on.

0:29:14.480 --> 0:29:17.280
<v Speaker 1>It was because of that because of that's Robert Goolay.

0:29:18.800 --> 0:29:20.240
<v Speaker 2>Is that why shot the TVs?

0:29:20.640 --> 0:29:23.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? For some apparently no one knows why. But whenever

0:29:23.600 --> 0:29:25.880
<v Speaker 1>Robert Gouley would come on, he would shoot his TV.

0:29:26.200 --> 0:29:28.640
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes he'd get really mad and shoot his toaster or

0:29:28.680 --> 0:29:31.680
<v Speaker 1>his oven or whatever. Wow, but he would shoot the TV.

0:29:33.080 --> 0:29:36.440
<v Speaker 2>That's pretty good. Yeah, all right, So these kidnappers, getting

0:29:36.480 --> 0:29:39.240
<v Speaker 2>back to the story of the Chowchilla school bus kidnapping,

0:29:39.960 --> 0:29:45.880
<v Speaker 2>these guys were three real low rent scumbags who were

0:29:46.360 --> 0:29:48.560
<v Speaker 2>didn't have a pinion to their name and were desperate

0:29:48.960 --> 0:29:50.120
<v Speaker 2>for cash, right.

0:29:51.080 --> 0:29:54.680
<v Speaker 1>In some ways kind of but if they were also

0:29:54.840 --> 0:29:57.480
<v Speaker 1>all three rich kids, if you can put those two

0:29:57.640 --> 0:29:58.840
<v Speaker 1>things together.

0:29:59.000 --> 0:30:03.640
<v Speaker 2>They were three which white kids won. Specifically the literal

0:30:03.720 --> 0:30:07.960
<v Speaker 2>trust fund kid. Yeah, he was the ringleader. We're talking

0:30:07.960 --> 0:30:11.920
<v Speaker 2>about fred Woods, James Schoenfeld, who were twenty four, and

0:30:11.960 --> 0:30:15.200
<v Speaker 2>then James's younger brother, Richard, who was twenty two. But

0:30:15.280 --> 0:30:21.400
<v Speaker 2>fred Woods, Frederick Newhall Woods, the fourth was the ringleader

0:30:21.600 --> 0:30:24.360
<v Speaker 2>and the I guess you could call it the brains

0:30:24.360 --> 0:30:27.600
<v Speaker 2>if there was a brain behind this. But he came

0:30:27.640 --> 0:30:32.520
<v Speaker 2>from a long line of California money. His one of

0:30:32.600 --> 0:30:35.360
<v Speaker 2>his ancestors was Henry Mayo Newall, who came in the

0:30:35.400 --> 0:30:39.040
<v Speaker 2>eighteen fifties to California, part of Santa Clarita's new All

0:30:39.080 --> 0:30:42.680
<v Speaker 2>California name for him. They made a ton of money

0:30:42.720 --> 0:30:47.120
<v Speaker 2>in real estate speculation and railroads and then eventually oil

0:30:47.320 --> 0:30:54.120
<v Speaker 2>and ranching and had a several hundred million dollar family fortune.

0:30:54.760 --> 0:30:58.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I read that they made seventies about three hundred

0:30:58.200 --> 0:31:01.920
<v Speaker 1>and fifty million a year in the seventies a year,

0:31:02.600 --> 0:31:05.480
<v Speaker 1>just that family doing nothing. And by the time this guy,

0:31:06.080 --> 0:31:10.440
<v Speaker 1>Fred Woods the fourth came along, there were generations of

0:31:10.480 --> 0:31:13.240
<v Speaker 1>this family that had never worked a day in their life.

0:31:14.080 --> 0:31:16.200
<v Speaker 1>So it's not like his parents struck it rich. And

0:31:16.240 --> 0:31:19.960
<v Speaker 1>they remember their roots like their roots were just gobsmackingly

0:31:20.320 --> 0:31:23.960
<v Speaker 1>wealth is wealthy, That's what they're That's what they knew.

0:31:24.600 --> 0:31:28.080
<v Speaker 1>And apparently Fred was not particularly paid attention to by

0:31:28.120 --> 0:31:30.959
<v Speaker 1>his parents and it had some effects on him. And

0:31:31.000 --> 0:31:34.280
<v Speaker 1>I saw also that he had trouble living up to

0:31:34.360 --> 0:31:40.160
<v Speaker 1>his father's expectations for him. But do nothing blue blood, Yeah,

0:31:40.280 --> 0:31:45.600
<v Speaker 1>but that his his dad's approval meant a lot to him. Yeah,

0:31:45.800 --> 0:31:49.240
<v Speaker 1>that's a terrible position for any any person to be in.

0:31:49.720 --> 0:31:52.080
<v Speaker 1>And I feel for him in that respect. And I

0:31:52.120 --> 0:31:55.000
<v Speaker 1>also think from from what I saw. There was a

0:31:55.040 --> 0:31:57.680
<v Speaker 1>New York Times article about him while I believe he

0:31:57.760 --> 0:32:01.640
<v Speaker 1>was still at large where he said, but he's described

0:32:01.680 --> 0:32:04.920
<v Speaker 1>as a loser in the headline. Yeah, the New York

0:32:04.960 --> 0:32:07.440
<v Speaker 1>Times calls him a loser, at least says other people

0:32:07.480 --> 0:32:10.680
<v Speaker 1>call him a loser in their headline. He was that

0:32:10.760 --> 0:32:12.760
<v Speaker 1>kind of person, and again it was the seventies, but

0:32:12.800 --> 0:32:16.120
<v Speaker 1>he was also that kind of person. He's just he

0:32:16.880 --> 0:32:20.360
<v Speaker 1>was the product of wealthy, neglectful parents from what I

0:32:20.400 --> 0:32:23.120
<v Speaker 1>can tell, and also an education system that seems to

0:32:23.120 --> 0:32:25.720
<v Speaker 1>have failed him, at least in the grammar portion.

0:32:26.960 --> 0:32:32.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we'll get to that. He didn't have a lot

0:32:32.360 --> 0:32:34.680
<v Speaker 2>of friends. He never really had a ton of girlfriends,

0:32:36.400 --> 0:32:38.680
<v Speaker 2>which is ironic because he ended up being married four times,

0:32:38.680 --> 0:32:41.680
<v Speaker 2>which we'll get to. He lived in a converted apartment

0:32:41.760 --> 0:32:46.680
<v Speaker 2>in an outbuilding on the nearly eighty acre estate in

0:32:47.640 --> 0:32:51.560
<v Speaker 2>Portala Valley where his grandmother lived and his parents lived.

0:32:51.560 --> 0:32:54.840
<v Speaker 2>Even though they were traveling by themselves usually. He got

0:32:54.840 --> 0:32:58.440
<v Speaker 2>a job at that rock quarry. Your first indication that

0:32:58.480 --> 0:33:01.280
<v Speaker 2>they may not have had the smartest play because his

0:33:01.360 --> 0:33:04.480
<v Speaker 2>dad owned it and he was into cars. He collected

0:33:04.600 --> 0:33:08.720
<v Speaker 2>cars with his money. The ringleader did. He had dozens

0:33:08.760 --> 0:33:12.000
<v Speaker 2>and dozens of cars. His buddy James, who helped him,

0:33:12.440 --> 0:33:14.560
<v Speaker 2>he was rich too, not that kind of rich, but

0:33:14.720 --> 0:33:19.200
<v Speaker 2>his parent his dad was a pediatrist, so they had

0:33:19.240 --> 0:33:21.520
<v Speaker 2>doctor money. So they were doing pretty well as well,

0:33:22.360 --> 0:33:24.400
<v Speaker 2>and they got into various businesses together. They had a

0:33:24.480 --> 0:33:27.440
<v Speaker 2>used car business together. They never did super well, it

0:33:27.480 --> 0:33:30.160
<v Speaker 2>seemed like, in any of their business ventures, because it

0:33:30.160 --> 0:33:31.640
<v Speaker 2>seemed like they weren't super smart.

0:33:31.880 --> 0:33:37.080
<v Speaker 1>Right. Another good descriptor is that Fred in particular loved

0:33:37.080 --> 0:33:39.400
<v Speaker 1>his cars, and he loved to shoot the windows out

0:33:39.440 --> 0:33:42.000
<v Speaker 1>of his cars with his guns, which he also loved.

0:33:42.400 --> 0:33:44.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they had a lot of guns between them as well.

0:33:45.120 --> 0:33:46.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's sort of what you think. There were

0:33:46.600 --> 0:33:49.920
<v Speaker 2>these rich kids who weren't paid attention to that could

0:33:49.960 --> 0:33:53.840
<v Speaker 2>do whatever they wanted and ended up getting into trouble.

0:33:54.280 --> 0:33:57.760
<v Speaker 2>He had Fred had designs on being a film producer,

0:33:58.280 --> 0:34:01.680
<v Speaker 2>and part of the concept for this kidnapping was the

0:34:01.680 --> 0:34:05.120
<v Speaker 2>school bus kidnapping and the movie Dirty Harry. Yeah, and

0:34:05.160 --> 0:34:07.240
<v Speaker 2>he said, hey, this would make a great movie too,

0:34:07.760 --> 0:34:10.000
<v Speaker 2>which we'll get to sort of the bows eye on

0:34:10.040 --> 0:34:13.320
<v Speaker 2>that later on. But he and James ended up losing

0:34:13.360 --> 0:34:17.840
<v Speaker 2>some money about thirty grand on a housing deal. And

0:34:18.320 --> 0:34:20.160
<v Speaker 2>depending on the report you read, some people say they

0:34:20.200 --> 0:34:22.560
<v Speaker 2>were desperate for money, but if you talk to James,

0:34:22.600 --> 0:34:24.719
<v Speaker 2>he said, I wanted to buy a Ferrari with it

0:34:24.760 --> 0:34:28.440
<v Speaker 2>because my neighbors had Ferraris and it was to keep

0:34:28.520 --> 0:34:30.080
<v Speaker 2>up with the Joneses situation.

0:34:30.239 --> 0:34:33.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, fred was born into it,

0:34:33.080 --> 0:34:37.480
<v Speaker 1>and I think took money largely for granted James and Richard,

0:34:37.480 --> 0:34:40.600
<v Speaker 1>but James in particular really kind of felt new to

0:34:40.640 --> 0:34:42.920
<v Speaker 1>the area and didn't fit in because they didn't have

0:34:42.960 --> 0:34:47.560
<v Speaker 1>as much money. I think their dad was punching above

0:34:47.600 --> 0:34:50.719
<v Speaker 1>his weight class socioeconomically in the area that they moved to,

0:34:51.239 --> 0:34:53.440
<v Speaker 1>and his sons kind of suffered for it because they

0:34:53.440 --> 0:34:56.600
<v Speaker 1>fell out of place because they just did not have

0:34:56.719 --> 0:34:59.560
<v Speaker 1>anywhere near the kind of wealth that their peers had

0:34:59.640 --> 0:35:02.120
<v Speaker 1>where they where they now lived. And that seems to

0:35:02.160 --> 0:35:04.280
<v Speaker 1>have gotten to James, and that was his big motivation.

0:35:04.960 --> 0:35:07.160
<v Speaker 1>I never saw fred Wood's motivation, did you.

0:35:08.360 --> 0:35:09.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think part of it had to do

0:35:09.680 --> 0:35:12.600
<v Speaker 2>with that thirty grand in debt, but I think part

0:35:12.600 --> 0:35:15.000
<v Speaker 2>of it, dude, is he was a bored rich kid

0:35:15.080 --> 0:35:17.880
<v Speaker 2>in some ways, right, Like that may have been the reason,

0:35:18.800 --> 0:35:20.200
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I'm dumb.

0:35:20.239 --> 0:35:23.320
<v Speaker 1>I also yeah, and also I have the impression that

0:35:25.280 --> 0:35:30.319
<v Speaker 1>James and Rick Schoenfeld were a lot more moral than

0:35:30.400 --> 0:35:31.160
<v Speaker 1>fred Wood was.

0:35:31.640 --> 0:35:32.040
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah.

0:35:32.040 --> 0:35:35.160
<v Speaker 1>Apparently in his journal James wrote at the time that

0:35:35.200 --> 0:35:37.719
<v Speaker 1>he was worried he was becoming immoral as they were

0:35:37.719 --> 0:35:42.560
<v Speaker 1>like really planning this, and he and his brother were

0:35:42.560 --> 0:35:45.160
<v Speaker 1>both Eagle Scouts, so I guess they It is fair

0:35:45.200 --> 0:35:47.160
<v Speaker 1>to say that they kind of fell under the influence

0:35:47.200 --> 0:35:51.879
<v Speaker 1>of fred Woods, who had no qualms about this whole thing.

0:35:52.160 --> 0:35:55.080
<v Speaker 1>He convinced them to give up their qualms as well.

0:35:55.960 --> 0:35:57.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I think the last time I'll say the word

0:35:58.040 --> 0:36:01.239
<v Speaker 2>smart thing that they did was when they were initially

0:36:01.280 --> 0:36:06.319
<v Speaker 2>hatching the idea. They said, we saw the news California saved.

0:36:06.400 --> 0:36:11.799
<v Speaker 2>California has a five billion dollar budget surplus, and we're

0:36:11.800 --> 0:36:14.879
<v Speaker 2>not going to get money kidnapping a kid or even

0:36:14.960 --> 0:36:20.040
<v Speaker 2>twenty six kids from their parents for their parents to

0:36:20.040 --> 0:36:22.800
<v Speaker 2>pay ransom. But if they were on a school bus,

0:36:23.160 --> 0:36:26.440
<v Speaker 2>then it's the responsibility of the state of California. And

0:36:26.480 --> 0:36:29.279
<v Speaker 2>they've got all this dough so five million bucks is

0:36:29.760 --> 0:36:32.279
<v Speaker 2>chump changed to them. So if we get them on

0:36:32.320 --> 0:36:34.799
<v Speaker 2>a school bus, then they're liable and that's how we're

0:36:34.840 --> 0:36:35.920
<v Speaker 2>going to get the most money.

0:36:36.480 --> 0:36:39.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and so the calculation that they made was that

0:36:39.520 --> 0:36:41.359
<v Speaker 1>there was nobody was going to get hurt. They knew

0:36:41.400 --> 0:36:44.800
<v Speaker 1>that they weren't going to physically hurt those kids. Yeah,

0:36:44.880 --> 0:36:47.960
<v Speaker 1>they knew that California had a budget surplus, but even

0:36:48.000 --> 0:36:52.840
<v Speaker 1>more than that, that their insurance company, the States whoever

0:36:52.960 --> 0:36:55.919
<v Speaker 1>ensured the state would end up actually paying that five

0:36:55.960 --> 0:36:59.520
<v Speaker 1>million dollars, and that they were just basically taking five

0:36:59.520 --> 0:37:01.880
<v Speaker 1>million dollars from the state that the state didn't really

0:37:01.920 --> 0:37:04.560
<v Speaker 1>need and that nobody was going to get hurt. And

0:37:04.560 --> 0:37:07.200
<v Speaker 1>then that calculation it really kind of reveals like how

0:37:07.280 --> 0:37:11.840
<v Speaker 1>much they did lose any kind of morality, which is

0:37:12.880 --> 0:37:15.880
<v Speaker 1>they did they utterly failed to take into account, like

0:37:15.920 --> 0:37:19.240
<v Speaker 1>the psychological and emotional damage they were going to inflict

0:37:19.239 --> 0:37:22.800
<v Speaker 1>on these kids and their parents and the town in general.

0:37:23.560 --> 0:37:23.759
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:37:24.719 --> 0:37:26.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I think that's one of the things that

0:37:27.680 --> 0:37:30.000
<v Speaker 2>because I think even in the end they saw it

0:37:30.040 --> 0:37:33.480
<v Speaker 2>as like not the biggest deal because no one was

0:37:33.560 --> 0:37:35.920
<v Speaker 2>hurt and it was really quick. But like when I

0:37:35.960 --> 0:37:39.840
<v Speaker 2>saw an eventually spoiler, we'll go ahead and say that

0:37:40.280 --> 0:37:42.440
<v Speaker 2>the two brothers were eventually paroled, and we'll get to

0:37:42.480 --> 0:37:45.360
<v Speaker 2>all that. But you know, the news teams in twenty

0:37:45.400 --> 0:37:48.640
<v Speaker 2>fifteen were like following this guy around in a parking lot,

0:37:49.200 --> 0:37:51.560
<v Speaker 2>asking him questions and he's just trying to avoid it.

0:37:52.040 --> 0:37:54.080
<v Speaker 2>And one of them was like, you do realize that

0:37:54.239 --> 0:37:57.920
<v Speaker 2>trauma these kids have still suffered into adulthood, and he

0:37:58.000 --> 0:38:00.960
<v Speaker 2>just went, you know, I've heard, so I heard, and

0:38:01.000 --> 0:38:04.120
<v Speaker 2>then just like quickly ran away. So even to this day,

0:38:04.160 --> 0:38:07.319
<v Speaker 2>they're trying to get them to realize that there was

0:38:07.360 --> 0:38:12.160
<v Speaker 2>a real impact and and the end result was trauma

0:38:12.239 --> 0:38:12.960
<v Speaker 2>and PTSD.

0:38:13.239 --> 0:38:15.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and the reason it did and it had the

0:38:15.160 --> 0:38:17.640
<v Speaker 1>impact and part of the problem for chow Chilla. Apparently

0:38:17.719 --> 0:38:21.799
<v Speaker 1>child Chilla was just transformed immediately. Like you know when

0:38:21.840 --> 0:38:24.240
<v Speaker 1>when if you're the victim of a crime, you wonder

0:38:24.320 --> 0:38:27.640
<v Speaker 1>like why why me? Especially a random crime, and this

0:38:27.680 --> 0:38:31.160
<v Speaker 1>is a random crime perpetrated on a whole town. Yeah, Like,

0:38:31.360 --> 0:38:36.160
<v Speaker 1>Chowchilla was a possible town among a number of towns

0:38:36.200 --> 0:38:39.960
<v Speaker 1>in the area that those three traveled to and staked

0:38:39.960 --> 0:38:41.719
<v Speaker 1>out and just kind of tried to figure out what

0:38:41.800 --> 0:38:44.600
<v Speaker 1>the best the best victim would be for this crime,

0:38:44.600 --> 0:38:47.480
<v Speaker 1>and they just settled on Chowchilla. They had no grudges

0:38:47.480 --> 0:38:49.719
<v Speaker 1>against chow Chilla. They had no ties to child Chilla.

0:38:50.480 --> 0:38:53.320
<v Speaker 1>But the problem was they didn't care about the people

0:38:53.360 --> 0:38:55.640
<v Speaker 1>of Chowdchilla or how they felt about their children or

0:38:55.680 --> 0:38:57.480
<v Speaker 1>what they were going to do to them. It was

0:38:57.640 --> 0:39:02.560
<v Speaker 1>just a random They chose them basically randomly, and chow

0:39:02.719 --> 0:39:08.040
<v Speaker 1>Chilli is the kind of rural farming town where people

0:39:08.080 --> 0:39:10.440
<v Speaker 1>don't talk about their feelings. I think I get the

0:39:10.480 --> 0:39:13.520
<v Speaker 1>impression that they still think that that's weak. It shows

0:39:13.520 --> 0:39:16.640
<v Speaker 1>a sign of weakness. And so I don't really have

0:39:16.760 --> 0:39:19.920
<v Speaker 1>the impression that the town has ever really processed this

0:39:20.480 --> 0:39:23.279
<v Speaker 1>and that they've tried to forget. And then there's a

0:39:23.360 --> 0:39:25.880
<v Speaker 1>lot of problems among the victims who are known in

0:39:25.880 --> 0:39:31.319
<v Speaker 1>their like fifties, that have never really been resolved or

0:39:31.360 --> 0:39:33.960
<v Speaker 1>worked out because the town just tried to carry on

0:39:34.080 --> 0:39:37.040
<v Speaker 1>as if it never happened basically from the get go.

0:39:38.120 --> 0:39:40.680
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I mean some of them got had very

0:39:40.719 --> 0:39:45.279
<v Speaker 2>hard luck stories getting into drugs, eventually getting better and

0:39:45.320 --> 0:39:48.320
<v Speaker 2>going through rehabit treatment and writing books about it. Others

0:39:48.360 --> 0:39:51.560
<v Speaker 2>say they don't trust people. They suffered nightmares for years,

0:39:51.560 --> 0:39:54.759
<v Speaker 2>some continue to Others have said that they don't even

0:39:54.800 --> 0:39:57.879
<v Speaker 2>really remember much of what happened. I imagine if you're

0:39:58.000 --> 0:40:01.080
<v Speaker 2>five years old, you're not going to remember as much

0:40:01.080 --> 0:40:03.880
<v Speaker 2>as a twelve year old obviously, so depending on your

0:40:03.880 --> 0:40:08.000
<v Speaker 2>age group, you may have suffered some more obvious lasting damage.

0:40:08.360 --> 0:40:12.839
<v Speaker 2>But they were all damaged. The way these guys got

0:40:12.840 --> 0:40:16.719
<v Speaker 2>caught is well, I guess let's tell a little bit

0:40:16.760 --> 0:40:19.880
<v Speaker 2>of that story. During the investigation, one thing they found,

0:40:20.719 --> 0:40:23.279
<v Speaker 2>and we'll put this in the dumb column. On the

0:40:23.320 --> 0:40:29.040
<v Speaker 2>property of where Fred lived, they found a plan written

0:40:29.080 --> 0:40:36.320
<v Speaker 2>out that said at the top plan I think a

0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:40.239
<v Speaker 2>kidnapping plan. Didn't even capitalize the p Yeah, they wrote

0:40:40.239 --> 0:40:42.000
<v Speaker 2>it out in pen and they had a lot of ideas.

0:40:42.320 --> 0:40:44.560
<v Speaker 2>They wanted to buy an X ray machine. I think

0:40:44.600 --> 0:40:50.080
<v Speaker 2>they did to X ray in case the ransom money

0:40:50.120 --> 0:40:53.920
<v Speaker 2>was bugged. They had a larger plan. They had one

0:40:53.920 --> 0:40:56.319
<v Speaker 2>plan about them the state dropping the money from a

0:40:56.360 --> 0:41:00.799
<v Speaker 2>plane in the Santa Cruz Mountains at a specific drop

0:41:00.840 --> 0:41:03.879
<v Speaker 2>site indicated by a series of lights. But they also

0:41:04.000 --> 0:41:08.080
<v Speaker 2>had this larger plan of putting dummies in a plane

0:41:08.160 --> 0:41:11.800
<v Speaker 2>with parachutes, and it was sort of all over the map.

0:41:11.920 --> 0:41:14.000
<v Speaker 2>This plan over the course of a year and a half.

0:41:14.280 --> 0:41:16.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there was this really reveals I think a lot

0:41:17.000 --> 0:41:20.239
<v Speaker 1>about them as well that on that plan sheet it

0:41:20.320 --> 0:41:24.600
<v Speaker 1>said one of the line items was burned the plan. Yeah,

0:41:24.719 --> 0:41:26.319
<v Speaker 1>they just didn't get around to that.

0:41:26.920 --> 0:41:28.360
<v Speaker 2>They left a ransom note.

0:41:29.280 --> 0:41:31.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and they had a lot of like scratch outs

0:41:31.840 --> 0:41:37.120
<v Speaker 1>and misspellings, and apparently referred to Fred by name in

0:41:37.160 --> 0:41:39.120
<v Speaker 1>the ransom note that they were planned to give to

0:41:39.200 --> 0:41:44.120
<v Speaker 1>the authorities, like reallys they were trying to throw the authorities.

0:41:44.200 --> 0:41:46.480
<v Speaker 1>They were trying to sniff the authorities off the case,

0:41:46.520 --> 0:41:51.000
<v Speaker 1>I guess, by posing or presenting themselves as a Satanic group.

0:41:51.719 --> 0:41:54.520
<v Speaker 1>And they said that their their name was beils a Bub,

0:41:54.920 --> 0:42:03.560
<v Speaker 1>but they misspelled beals abub. They spelled b sabub, which

0:42:03.600 --> 0:42:06.320
<v Speaker 1>is just offensive to anybody who knows how to spell

0:42:06.360 --> 0:42:11.680
<v Speaker 1>that word. It's just like if you misspell things in

0:42:11.719 --> 0:42:15.239
<v Speaker 1>your ransom note, like you're not going to do very

0:42:15.239 --> 0:42:16.799
<v Speaker 1>well for yourself. Most likely.

0:42:18.000 --> 0:42:21.160
<v Speaker 2>That's right in the aftermath of the kidnapping, from when

0:42:21.200 --> 0:42:25.120
<v Speaker 2>they buried the kids to when they left, the plan

0:42:25.360 --> 0:42:29.160
<v Speaker 2>was called the Chowchilla Police Department, demand your five million

0:42:29.200 --> 0:42:34.560
<v Speaker 2>dollar ransom. But the Chowchilla phone system was very small,

0:42:35.120 --> 0:42:37.840
<v Speaker 2>and there were obviously when you kidnapped twenty six kids,

0:42:38.280 --> 0:42:40.919
<v Speaker 2>and the media is descending. Every phone line was busy.

0:42:41.000 --> 0:42:43.520
<v Speaker 2>They literally could not get through with a ransom demand.

0:42:44.000 --> 0:42:48.200
<v Speaker 2>The kids escaped before they even got through with a

0:42:48.280 --> 0:42:51.480
<v Speaker 2>ransom demand. Yeah, I think you said. The donation from

0:42:51.480 --> 0:42:53.759
<v Speaker 2>the phone company. They literally had to go in and

0:42:53.880 --> 0:42:57.440
<v Speaker 2>install like dozens of phone lines just so the FBI

0:42:57.520 --> 0:42:58.719
<v Speaker 2>could operate effectively.

0:43:00.280 --> 0:43:02.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so they never What did these guys do?

0:43:02.360 --> 0:43:04.400
<v Speaker 2>Right afterward? When they couldn't get through.

0:43:05.600 --> 0:43:08.440
<v Speaker 1>They decided they needed to scram that the jig was

0:43:08.560 --> 0:43:10.919
<v Speaker 1>up and they needed to part ways, and they did.

0:43:11.719 --> 0:43:17.000
<v Speaker 1>Fred Woods was wily enough to have come up with

0:43:17.040 --> 0:43:22.000
<v Speaker 1>a passport with the name Ralph Snyder, and he traveled

0:43:22.040 --> 0:43:26.720
<v Speaker 1>successfully to British Columbia, I think Vancouver under that fake passport.

0:43:26.840 --> 0:43:29.600
<v Speaker 1>But then when he was there he started writing to people.

0:43:29.760 --> 0:43:32.600
<v Speaker 1>He had a friend who was i think in film

0:43:32.640 --> 0:43:35.319
<v Speaker 1>school and said, hey, you should turn this into a

0:43:35.360 --> 0:43:38.440
<v Speaker 1>whole like a whole movie.

0:43:38.880 --> 0:43:41.480
<v Speaker 2>He said, right, just give me.

0:43:41.480 --> 0:43:44.719
<v Speaker 1>Some of the the box office, I guess, but he said,

0:43:44.800 --> 0:43:48.440
<v Speaker 1>but be fair, he said, be fair, but he spelled,

0:43:48.680 --> 0:43:53.680
<v Speaker 1>he spelled the fai. Yeah, so that's I'm sorry, it's

0:43:53.760 --> 0:43:58.160
<v Speaker 1>just annoying me to no end the misspellings. Yeah, but

0:43:58.320 --> 0:44:01.520
<v Speaker 1>then he signed the letter sent it Ralph Snyder. He

0:44:01.600 --> 0:44:04.920
<v Speaker 1>sent it as his alias, so the cops, the FBI

0:44:05.040 --> 0:44:10.640
<v Speaker 1>tracked him like within days to Vancouver and got the

0:44:10.719 --> 0:44:13.040
<v Speaker 1>Royal Canadian minded police to arrest him.

0:44:13.560 --> 0:44:15.960
<v Speaker 2>I wonder he knew the guy though in film school.

0:44:16.160 --> 0:44:17.600
<v Speaker 2>I wonder if this guy was like, who.

0:44:17.480 --> 0:44:19.520
<v Speaker 1>Is there, who's Ralph Snider?

0:44:19.960 --> 0:44:23.200
<v Speaker 2>Or if he put in parentheses that's my alias, this

0:44:23.280 --> 0:44:24.360
<v Speaker 2>is this is Fred.

0:44:25.200 --> 0:44:28.560
<v Speaker 1>Don't tell the FBI, but he misspelled FBI.

0:44:31.200 --> 0:44:37.440
<v Speaker 2>So Rick, the younger Schoenfeld, for his part, almost immediately confessed.

0:44:38.400 --> 0:44:40.480
<v Speaker 2>He got home after the three of them met up

0:44:40.520 --> 0:44:43.560
<v Speaker 2>and then split up, went home and told his dad

0:44:43.640 --> 0:44:46.640
<v Speaker 2>what he did. His dad because they had money again

0:44:46.760 --> 0:44:49.759
<v Speaker 2>as a podiatrist, got him a lawyer too sweet, And

0:44:49.800 --> 0:44:52.320
<v Speaker 2>so that's why we don't know exactly. That's one reason

0:44:52.320 --> 0:44:55.120
<v Speaker 2>we don't know exactly what happened in those first like

0:44:55.640 --> 0:44:58.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, hours afterward, is because the lawyer kind of

0:44:58.200 --> 0:44:59.960
<v Speaker 2>kept that all quiet. Although it did see a new

0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:03.360
<v Speaker 2>report that said they took naps. I don't know if

0:45:03.400 --> 0:45:05.279
<v Speaker 2>that's true true or not, but I did see that.

0:45:05.360 --> 0:45:07.960
<v Speaker 1>It sounds right. It holds up if you put it

0:45:08.040 --> 0:45:09.200
<v Speaker 1>up against everything else.

0:45:10.080 --> 0:45:14.120
<v Speaker 2>And keep in mind once again They took these kids

0:45:14.160 --> 0:45:16.799
<v Speaker 2>to a quarry that fred Wood's dad owned and where

0:45:16.800 --> 0:45:20.759
<v Speaker 2>fred Woods worked, and the quarry security guard said when

0:45:20.800 --> 0:45:23.920
<v Speaker 2>they were interviewed, said, well, yeah, last week, Fred and

0:45:24.000 --> 0:45:28.040
<v Speaker 2>two other guys dug a big hole out there, you know,

0:45:28.080 --> 0:45:30.880
<v Speaker 2>a few months before this happened, like a oh, I

0:45:30.920 --> 0:45:33.319
<v Speaker 2>don't know, like a moving van size hole.

0:45:34.920 --> 0:45:38.240
<v Speaker 1>But the hole's gone now, so who cares, right, exactly?

0:45:39.360 --> 0:45:44.680
<v Speaker 1>So Rick turned himself in. Fred got caught. James made

0:45:44.719 --> 0:45:48.520
<v Speaker 1>attempts to cross the border into Canada himself, but apparently

0:45:48.600 --> 0:45:53.759
<v Speaker 1>the Canadian authorities considered him a way too nervous, be

0:45:54.200 --> 0:45:56.680
<v Speaker 1>way too vague about what he planned to do in Canada,

0:45:56.960 --> 0:46:00.400
<v Speaker 1>and see in possession of way too many guns to

0:46:00.400 --> 0:46:03.120
<v Speaker 1>be led in the country. And apparently he tried two

0:46:03.200 --> 0:46:05.440
<v Speaker 1>or three times using his own name to get in

0:46:05.880 --> 0:46:08.359
<v Speaker 1>and finally gave up and turned around. And I guess

0:46:08.400 --> 0:46:10.960
<v Speaker 1>he had decided he was going to turn himself into authorities,

0:46:11.280 --> 0:46:14.279
<v Speaker 1>but because of an all points bulletin on his license plate,

0:46:14.320 --> 0:46:17.320
<v Speaker 1>he was picked up before he could turn himself in.

0:46:17.840 --> 0:46:22.080
<v Speaker 2>Right, So they were all collected less than two weeks

0:46:22.080 --> 0:46:24.759
<v Speaker 2>after it happened. Yes, all right, well, let's take our

0:46:24.840 --> 0:46:27.719
<v Speaker 2>last break and then we will kind of quickly go

0:46:27.800 --> 0:46:30.719
<v Speaker 2>over the sentencing and what happened afterward, right.

0:46:30.640 --> 0:47:13.359
<v Speaker 3>After this, all right, So they were collected.

0:47:12.960 --> 0:47:15.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they were collected and of course had their day

0:47:15.640 --> 0:47:18.440
<v Speaker 2>in court. And the big, the big thing that happened

0:47:18.440 --> 0:47:23.000
<v Speaker 2>in court was was whether or not these guys committed

0:47:23.000 --> 0:47:27.400
<v Speaker 2>bodily harm on these children, because if you committed bodily harm,

0:47:27.760 --> 0:47:30.920
<v Speaker 2>then you have a sentence of life without a possible

0:47:30.960 --> 0:47:34.360
<v Speaker 2>sentence of life without parole. If there was no bodily harm,

0:47:34.719 --> 0:47:38.880
<v Speaker 2>then you could have life with parole. They ruled that

0:47:38.920 --> 0:47:43.280
<v Speaker 2>they did suffer bodily harm, so they had stomach trouble,

0:47:43.360 --> 0:47:46.640
<v Speaker 2>they had nosebleeds, some of the kids fainted, and that

0:47:46.640 --> 0:47:50.560
<v Speaker 2>that counted. But in nineteen eighty an appeals court reversed

0:47:50.560 --> 0:47:53.719
<v Speaker 2>that ruling said that is not bodily harm and that

0:47:53.760 --> 0:47:57.880
<v Speaker 2>made them eligible for parole. And since then, like I

0:47:57.920 --> 0:48:01.720
<v Speaker 2>said earlier, the two show Unfeld brothers have been released

0:48:02.440 --> 0:48:06.000
<v Speaker 2>in I think twenty twelve and twenty fifteen.

0:48:05.760 --> 0:48:10.719
<v Speaker 1>Right like long after. Some observers who were involved in

0:48:10.760 --> 0:48:14.040
<v Speaker 1>the case think that they should have been paroled, like

0:48:14.239 --> 0:48:18.000
<v Speaker 1>especially Richard Schoenfeld. He was twenty two at the time.

0:48:18.520 --> 0:48:21.120
<v Speaker 1>He was basically there I saw described as a long

0:48:21.160 --> 0:48:25.360
<v Speaker 1>for the ride again, an eagle scout. He probably became

0:48:25.400 --> 0:48:29.440
<v Speaker 1>an eagle scout three four years before this happened, and

0:48:30.080 --> 0:48:37.440
<v Speaker 1>he he spent thirty nine years in prison.

0:48:39.080 --> 0:48:41.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I guess, so twenty fifteen is when he got out.

0:48:41.680 --> 0:48:42.400
<v Speaker 2>In twenty twelve.

0:48:42.480 --> 0:48:46.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, yeah, so yeah, about thirty seven years in

0:48:46.360 --> 0:48:50.400
<v Speaker 1>prison of design from age twenty two. He spent the

0:48:50.400 --> 0:48:52.919
<v Speaker 1>next thirty seven years in prison for basically hanging out

0:48:52.920 --> 0:48:56.280
<v Speaker 1>with his brother and his brother's goofy friend doing something

0:48:56.360 --> 0:49:00.279
<v Speaker 1>really stupid. And a lot of other people said, yeah,

0:49:00.280 --> 0:49:02.640
<v Speaker 1>and if you're gonna let Richard Shownfeld out, you should

0:49:02.680 --> 0:49:05.719
<v Speaker 1>really probably take another look at James Schoumfeld too, because yeah,

0:49:05.760 --> 0:49:09.759
<v Speaker 1>he was more involved than his brother, but he was

0:49:09.800 --> 0:49:12.759
<v Speaker 1>still no Fred Woods. And then you get to fred

0:49:12.800 --> 0:49:15.640
<v Speaker 1>Woods and people say, yeah, probably just he doesn't really

0:49:15.680 --> 0:49:16.600
<v Speaker 1>deserve to be parole.

0:49:18.120 --> 0:49:21.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean the other two were model prisoners, and

0:49:21.200 --> 0:49:26.400
<v Speaker 2>they also had, I mean people that were active. I

0:49:26.400 --> 0:49:29.600
<v Speaker 2>don't know if it was a prosecutor or investigator. I

0:49:29.640 --> 0:49:33.200
<v Speaker 2>think the investigator for the case eventually advocated for parole.

0:49:33.360 --> 0:49:33.799
<v Speaker 1>Both did.

0:49:34.920 --> 0:49:37.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so you know, some of the townspeople felt betrayed

0:49:37.880 --> 0:49:40.200
<v Speaker 2>by that, but they did get out. Fred Woods was

0:49:40.239 --> 0:49:43.120
<v Speaker 2>not a model prisoner. He was still as shady as ever.

0:49:43.640 --> 0:49:46.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, you're not supposed to run businesses from prison.

0:49:46.640 --> 0:49:49.239
<v Speaker 2>But he ran a gold mine. He ran a used

0:49:49.320 --> 0:49:53.239
<v Speaker 2>car business, he ran a Christmas tree farm, he got

0:49:53.280 --> 0:49:56.280
<v Speaker 2>married a few times. The reason he was finally outed

0:49:56.440 --> 0:50:01.120
<v Speaker 2>was he was running the Christmas tree farm and Michael Biyanki,

0:50:01.160 --> 0:50:04.040
<v Speaker 2>who was managing that business, got injured on the job

0:50:04.160 --> 0:50:06.000
<v Speaker 2>and Woods said, I'm not going to help pay for

0:50:06.040 --> 0:50:09.320
<v Speaker 2>the surgery. So Biyanki said all right, and he filed

0:50:09.320 --> 0:50:12.200
<v Speaker 2>a state workers comp claim and they got on the

0:50:12.200 --> 0:50:14.800
<v Speaker 2>investigation and found out that Woods was behind the operation.

0:50:15.520 --> 0:50:19.680
<v Speaker 2>So he's not When that comes time for parole, that

0:50:19.719 --> 0:50:20.479
<v Speaker 2>doesn't look good.

0:50:20.880 --> 0:50:23.920
<v Speaker 1>No, And I guess he's been denied parole seventeen times

0:50:23.920 --> 0:50:27.000
<v Speaker 1>so far, yes, and he's up next in twenty twenty

0:50:27.040 --> 0:50:31.040
<v Speaker 1>four and a lot of people think he might he

0:50:31.120 --> 0:50:32.200
<v Speaker 1>might never be paroled.

0:50:32.200 --> 0:50:38.080
<v Speaker 2>Actually, well, he bought a mansion in Nipomo, California, thirty

0:50:38.120 --> 0:50:42.120
<v Speaker 2>miles from the prison that no one lives at. He

0:50:42.280 --> 0:50:45.640
<v Speaker 2>did have a civil lawsuit in twenty sixteen where he

0:50:45.680 --> 0:50:48.200
<v Speaker 2>had to pay out money to the victims. That was

0:50:48.280 --> 0:50:52.440
<v Speaker 2>described as quote enough to pay for some serious therapy,

0:50:52.800 --> 0:50:54.160
<v Speaker 2>but not enough to buy a house.

0:50:55.400 --> 0:50:58.560
<v Speaker 1>Which is significant too because they did rule. An appeals

0:50:58.560 --> 0:51:02.520
<v Speaker 1>court ruled in nineteen eighty that they didn't inflict bodily harm.

0:51:02.880 --> 0:51:05.160
<v Speaker 1>But I wonder if that same appeals court would come

0:51:05.160 --> 0:51:10.360
<v Speaker 1>to that conclusion in twenty twenty one, based on interviews

0:51:10.400 --> 0:51:13.960
<v Speaker 1>with some of the people who were abducted, like Jennifer

0:51:14.120 --> 0:51:17.279
<v Speaker 1>Brown High, who I mentioned earlier, who's not I.

0:51:17.239 --> 0:51:19.600
<v Speaker 2>Think emotional harm would play in these days, right.

0:51:20.160 --> 0:51:23.040
<v Speaker 1>And there was definitely emotional harm inflicted. You talked about

0:51:23.080 --> 0:51:25.680
<v Speaker 1>Larry Park who was addicted to meth and crack before

0:51:25.880 --> 0:51:29.560
<v Speaker 1>he finally found forgiveness and actually went and met with

0:51:29.600 --> 0:51:33.160
<v Speaker 1>all three of the perpetrators and shook their hands and

0:51:33.200 --> 0:51:35.799
<v Speaker 1>told them he forgave them and apparently changed his own

0:51:35.840 --> 0:51:36.520
<v Speaker 1>life like that.

0:51:36.719 --> 0:51:38.480
<v Speaker 2>If you haven't listened to words said, hey, I could

0:51:38.480 --> 0:51:39.920
<v Speaker 2>make you a heck of a deal on a used van.

0:51:40.560 --> 0:51:43.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, fred Ward took his watch when he shook

0:51:43.160 --> 0:51:43.520
<v Speaker 1>his hand.

0:51:45.080 --> 0:51:48.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, I was kidding, but he My final little factoid

0:51:48.520 --> 0:51:52.560
<v Speaker 2>is that that used Carlat had those two vans and

0:51:52.600 --> 0:51:54.320
<v Speaker 2>he held onto those because he thought they would be

0:51:54.360 --> 0:51:56.879
<v Speaker 2>worth a lot of money as the kidnap vans.

0:51:56.719 --> 0:51:59.879
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, which they might be worth an extra few hundred

0:52:00.280 --> 0:52:02.000
<v Speaker 1>I could see that, but I don't know if that

0:52:02.520 --> 0:52:06.320
<v Speaker 1>If that's the crown jewel of your inventory.

0:52:05.760 --> 0:52:08.680
<v Speaker 2>Owner, Nick cage Bottom, you're right.

0:52:10.160 --> 0:52:12.920
<v Speaker 1>And then you can go watch that movie from Lifetime

0:52:13.640 --> 0:52:16.000
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen ninety three called They've Taken Our Children if

0:52:16.040 --> 0:52:19.320
<v Speaker 1>you want to see Carl Malden in his underwear apparently.

0:52:19.280 --> 0:52:20.840
<v Speaker 2>Man bad movie, bad song.

0:52:21.000 --> 0:52:23.520
<v Speaker 1>I read also that chow Chiller residents do not care

0:52:23.600 --> 0:52:26.480
<v Speaker 1>for that movie Chuck because it was shot in Kansas,

0:52:26.960 --> 0:52:29.720
<v Speaker 1>and anyone who knows anything about the San Joaquin Valley

0:52:29.760 --> 0:52:31.799
<v Speaker 1>knows that Kansas is a poor stand in for that.

0:52:32.000 --> 0:52:34.319
<v Speaker 1>So they're a little turned off by that movie from

0:52:34.360 --> 0:52:37.200
<v Speaker 1>what I understand, that's right. And then last thing I

0:52:37.239 --> 0:52:42.680
<v Speaker 1>want to shout out Caleb Horton, who wrote an article

0:52:42.760 --> 0:52:45.120
<v Speaker 1>on Vox very in depth one called the Ballad of

0:52:45.160 --> 0:52:47.359
<v Speaker 1>the chow Chiller Bus Kidnapping. It's pretty good.

0:52:48.120 --> 0:52:48.919
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's a good one.

0:52:49.040 --> 0:52:53.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is all right, all right, the article, not

0:52:53.960 --> 0:52:58.160
<v Speaker 1>the song. No, no, oh, okay, it's an article, an article.

0:52:58.239 --> 0:53:01.799
<v Speaker 1>I gotcha. Okay, Well, since we had we worked out

0:53:01.840 --> 0:53:04.479
<v Speaker 1>them as understanding everybody. That means it's time for listener mail.

0:53:07.200 --> 0:53:11.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to call this. Let me see. How about

0:53:12.520 --> 0:53:16.640
<v Speaker 2>racist ticketing. In our episode on jaywalking, we talked about

0:53:17.280 --> 0:53:21.200
<v Speaker 2>people of the black and Hispanic communities are ticketed more

0:53:21.800 --> 0:53:26.320
<v Speaker 2>for jaywalking. And this is from Valerie Mates in an Arbor, Michigan.

0:53:27.120 --> 0:53:29.080
<v Speaker 2>Hey guys, you mentioned that black and Hispanic drivers are

0:53:29.080 --> 0:53:32.360
<v Speaker 2>issued more traffic tickets and white drivers. His interesting issue

0:53:32.400 --> 0:53:35.319
<v Speaker 2>in Chicago, when they installed traffic cameras, they found that

0:53:35.360 --> 0:53:39.280
<v Speaker 2>the cameras, despite being race neutral, still gave more tickets

0:53:39.320 --> 0:53:42.239
<v Speaker 2>to black and Hispanic drivers, so of course they wanted

0:53:42.239 --> 0:53:45.719
<v Speaker 2>to study that. The experts found that more affluent neighborhoods

0:53:46.000 --> 0:53:49.720
<v Speaker 2>are built with more features that would naturally slow down traffic,

0:53:50.000 --> 0:53:54.160
<v Speaker 2>more sidewalks, more stop signs, more crosswalks, while poorer neighborhoods

0:53:54.160 --> 0:53:56.960
<v Speaker 2>had fewer those fewer of those things, and the result

0:53:56.960 --> 0:53:59.919
<v Speaker 2>wood cars would be naturally would tend to drive fast

0:54:00.680 --> 0:54:04.200
<v Speaker 2>in poorer neighborhoods. Since black and Hispanic drivers are more

0:54:04.280 --> 0:54:07.279
<v Speaker 2>likely to live and be driving in less wealthy neighborhoods

0:54:07.600 --> 0:54:10.200
<v Speaker 2>in Chicago, they were more likely to be speeding and

0:54:10.280 --> 0:54:14.920
<v Speaker 2>caught by traffic cameras, or so says the evidence at

0:54:15.000 --> 0:54:17.640
<v Speaker 2>least crazy. It's not just prejudice on the part of

0:54:17.640 --> 0:54:21.440
<v Speaker 2>police officers that causes this discrepancy, is actually a difference

0:54:21.440 --> 0:54:24.200
<v Speaker 2>in how the neighborhoods are built systematically. Thought it was

0:54:24.239 --> 0:54:28.759
<v Speaker 2>really interesting and I agree Injory. Thanks for sending that

0:54:28.800 --> 0:54:31.799
<v Speaker 2>in Who was it again? Valerie Mates of ann Arbor?

0:54:31.880 --> 0:54:34.600
<v Speaker 1>Thanks a lot, Valerie. That's a great one. If you've

0:54:34.600 --> 0:54:37.479
<v Speaker 1>got a great one like Valerie does. We love little

0:54:37.520 --> 0:54:41.359
<v Speaker 1>brainbusters like that, so you can wrap them up, spank

0:54:41.400 --> 0:54:43.680
<v Speaker 1>them on the bottom, and send them off via email

0:54:43.760 --> 0:54:49.759
<v Speaker 1>to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

0:54:49.920 --> 0:54:52.759
<v Speaker 2>Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

0:54:52.880 --> 0:54:57.040
<v Speaker 2>more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

0:54:57.160 --> 0:55:03.520
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