WEBVTT - Ep. 400: The Use of Lethal Force

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<v Speaker 1>The last episode of bear Grease was on the drowning

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<v Speaker 1>of Oklahoma Wildlife Officer Melvin Bucky Garrison in nineteen seventy one.

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<v Speaker 1>The story that we're going to tell today goes separated

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<v Speaker 1>by forty four years, is eerily connected. It's the story

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<v Speaker 1>about the use of lethal force and the legal precedence

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<v Speaker 1>of water as a means of potential murder. I really

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<v Speaker 1>doubt that you're going to want to miss this one.

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<v Speaker 2>And he actually started shaking me under the water like

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<v Speaker 2>he was trying to drown me, like you would see

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<v Speaker 2>somebody on TV shaking somebody under the water. And he's

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<v Speaker 2>doing that, and I'm laying there and in my mind,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm it's slow. I mean, everything went real slow. And

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<v Speaker 2>I was sitting there thinking, Okay, I know where I'm at,

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<v Speaker 2>I know what I got to do.

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Clay Knukem, and this is the Bear

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<v Speaker 1>Grease podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search

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<v Speaker 1>for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the

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<v Speaker 1>story of Americans who live their lives close to the land.

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<v Speaker 1>Presented by FHF Gear, American made purpose built hunting and

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<v Speaker 1>fishing gear as designed to be as rugged as the

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<v Speaker 1>place as we explore, I'd like to introduce you to

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<v Speaker 1>Oklahoma Wildlife Officer Jared Kramer. I'd say Jared is in

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<v Speaker 1>his forties. He has a very serious demeanor. He's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of fit and wiry, and I could immediately tell he

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<v Speaker 1>takes his job extremely serious. I want to jump right

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<v Speaker 1>in and learn about his history and law enforcement. Meet

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<v Speaker 1>Officer Jared Kramer.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, Yeah, So actually started in conservation right out of college.

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<v Speaker 2>Two thousand and five. I went to work for the

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<v Speaker 2>Missouri Department of Conservation, and it's actually just an hourly

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<v Speaker 2>temporary job doing some stream surveying, backpack shocking streams and

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<v Speaker 2>doing a little study there in northern Missouri. And that

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<v Speaker 2>turned into me staying and getting on as an hourly

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<v Speaker 2>temporary employee with the wildlife guys. Worked all winter with them,

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<v Speaker 2>and then I got a full time job with them

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<v Speaker 2>on a conservation area as a wildlife technician. And all

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<v Speaker 2>the while I'm trying to get on as an Oklahoma

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<v Speaker 2>game warden, and I got that in two thousand and seven,

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<v Speaker 2>and this Adair County was my first assignment and I've

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<v Speaker 2>been here ever since.

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<v Speaker 1>M Why do you want to get into wild life law.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I don't really have a memory of the why.

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<v Speaker 2>It just seems like that was always it. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>I don't recall like deciding one day that's what I

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<v Speaker 2>want to do. But you know, since I was probably

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<v Speaker 2>in junior high, I knew that, you know, that's something

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<v Speaker 2>I probably wanted to do. My brother is actually a

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<v Speaker 2>game warden in Oklahoma, and he hired on five years

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<v Speaker 2>before I did, And that's that basically solidified that that's

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<v Speaker 2>what I wanted to do. Not only because I looked

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<v Speaker 2>up to my brother and you know, wanted to work

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<v Speaker 2>with him and enjoyed, you know that, but I got

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<v Speaker 2>an inside scoop on the job, you know, and so

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<v Speaker 2>I really got to learn all ins and outs of

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<v Speaker 2>actually being an Oklahoma game warden because he was doing it.

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<v Speaker 2>And so then it's like, yeah, that's what I want

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<v Speaker 2>to do.

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<v Speaker 1>Officer Kramer was involved in a life changing altercation in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty fifteen. He knows what I'm here to talk to

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<v Speaker 1>him about. He's often been asked to share the story

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<v Speaker 1>with other wildlife officers and trainings and with new cadets.

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<v Speaker 1>His story shows a very extreme situation and one that

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<v Speaker 1>you wouldn't think a wildlife officer would find himself in.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's twenty fifteen in April's Sunday morning, and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going I'm going to go to work for a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit mid morning, and my plan was was to go

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<v Speaker 2>make a circle, probably check some fishing licenses. I actually

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<v Speaker 2>had a place on a wildlife management area where some

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<v Speaker 2>people have been illegally driving four wheelers or pick ups

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<v Speaker 2>off road, and I was going to go check on that.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was hoping to be home early in the afternoon,

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<v Speaker 2>going to have a short Sunday as what I had planned.

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<v Speaker 2>So this spot that I'm going to go check on

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<v Speaker 2>the wildlife management area's not far from my house, so

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<v Speaker 2>I hadn't been gone long. And I'm over there and

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<v Speaker 2>I hear my partner on the county radio to the dispatcher.

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<v Speaker 2>He's calling in a couple of individuals that are to

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<v Speaker 2>run their status of their driver's licenses and to check

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<v Speaker 2>them if they have any outstanding warrants. And so I

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<v Speaker 2>hear this, and he I believe, he tells the dispatcher

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<v Speaker 2>where he's at, and it was a place called Sanders

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<v Speaker 2>Flat and I'm just right down the road from there. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>within a minute they come back and say they've got

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<v Speaker 2>two of these individuals have outstanding warrants out of Arkansas,

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<v Speaker 2>and one of them's fell any warrant. So I know

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<v Speaker 2>this guy's going to go to jail. So I start

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<v Speaker 2>heading that way, and I raised.

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<v Speaker 3>Is a guy.

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<v Speaker 1>Forgive me for interrupted, this is a guy that he

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<v Speaker 1>has got here checking.

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<v Speaker 2>Out saw back up. So there was a little pond,

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<v Speaker 2>little farm pond that it's on private property, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>commonly being used by the public for fishing. Pretty small pond,

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<v Speaker 2>and so he just went there to check see if

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<v Speaker 2>anybody's there fishing that morning, and these people are there,

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<v Speaker 2>so he's checked their fishing licenses, now having Oklahoma fishing licenses.

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<v Speaker 2>So this contact progresses into him checking them for the warrants.

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<v Speaker 2>So the county comes back and tells him, yes, this

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<v Speaker 2>this one individual's got the felony warrant. So I immediately know, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to his location, back him up, helping whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>So I radio to him and tell him, hey, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>just down the road. I'll be there in a minute.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'll pull up there. He's parked kind of up

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<v Speaker 2>on this hill above the pawn The ponds one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and fifty yards away or so from where he's parked,

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<v Speaker 2>and he's got this woman at his truck, and I

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<v Speaker 2>already know that she has warrants as well, and he's

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<v Speaker 2>there with her. So I pull up and I immediately

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<v Speaker 2>am looking down at this pond these other two guys,

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<v Speaker 2>knowing one of those guys has this warrant and he's

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<v Speaker 2>with this girl. So I'm just my thought process is

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<v Speaker 2>I got to go down here to this guy and

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<v Speaker 2>take care of this, whether that's hook him up right

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<v Speaker 2>now or whatever. I'm gonna get over there. So I

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<v Speaker 2>confirm with that it's, you know, this one particular guy,

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<v Speaker 2>whatever he was wearing. But I already knew that because

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<v Speaker 2>when I pulled up, even from one hundred and fifty yards,

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<v Speaker 2>I could see the look on his face in his

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<v Speaker 2>body language that he was the guy. He knew when

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<v Speaker 2>he's seen me pull up, everything about him changed, and

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<v Speaker 2>I knew that's that's the guys.

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<v Speaker 3>So what did what did you see? What did he do?

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<v Speaker 2>I just just could see it. I don't know, I

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't describe it, but it was it was written all

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<v Speaker 2>over him in his body language that I could tell

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<v Speaker 2>he was the guy that was going to have this warrant.

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<v Speaker 2>Most likely it was probably him looking at me directly

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<v Speaker 2>and watched me pull up there, and I, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>so I pull off and have to drive around down

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<v Speaker 2>the county road and come back around the other side

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<v Speaker 2>to get to where these these guys are parked on

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<v Speaker 2>the other side of this pond. I was looking across

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<v Speaker 2>the pond from him. They've got a truck parked down

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<v Speaker 2>there by the pond. And I get out. This other

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<v Speaker 2>guy is a middle aged man. I recognized him from

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<v Speaker 2>another contact, and this to be a little side story

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<v Speaker 2>that can go into this. So this guy, I took

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<v Speaker 2>him to jail a year or two prior. He had

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<v Speaker 2>an outstanding warrant. And I'm taking this gentleman to jail

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<v Speaker 2>or we're making the drive and he's telling me that

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<v Speaker 2>this is a big mistake, which I've heard, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's always well, I paid it, but you know they

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<v Speaker 2>lost the whatever. You know. Well, he's telling me that

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<v Speaker 2>he's a victim of identity theft and that somebody stole

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<v Speaker 2>his identity and that person got arrested using his identity

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<v Speaker 2>and then they bailed out of jail. Didn't never come

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<v Speaker 2>back after they posted bond never showed back up to court.

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<v Speaker 2>So now he's on the hook because it was his identity.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, I'm you know what I'm thinking, Okay, Well,

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<v Speaker 2>he keeps telling me about it, and I start to

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<v Speaker 2>believe in you know, I'm thinking, you know, this sounds legitimate.

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<v Speaker 2>He's pretty adamant about it. And I told him, I said, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll look into it,

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<v Speaker 2>so take him to jail, book him in which I

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<v Speaker 2>explained to him. He knew, like he it's not like

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<v Speaker 2>I can't take you to jail now, but we'll look

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<v Speaker 2>into it. So sure enough, the following week, because that

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<v Speaker 2>was the weekend, I followed up and I ended up

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<v Speaker 2>finding these, you know, the photos from the booking of

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<v Speaker 2>this guy. It's not him, and so he's telling.

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<v Speaker 3>Me the truth.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I wrote up a deal and gave it

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<v Speaker 2>to the district attorneys and you know, told him what

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<v Speaker 2>i'd found, what i'd discovered, and got this guy off

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<v Speaker 2>and got his charges dropped and all that deal because

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<v Speaker 2>he truly was a victim of identity theft. Anyway, So

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<v Speaker 2>now I'm on I'm at the pond, and there he

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<v Speaker 2>is and he's kind of excited to see me, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he you know.

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<v Speaker 1>He knows you've done yeah, he or he.

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<v Speaker 2>Knows that this deal all worked out and and he

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<v Speaker 2>got off those charges because of that deal, and he

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<v Speaker 2>knew that I had took care of it, yeah, or

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<v Speaker 2>figured it out and got it took care of So anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>he shows me his fishing license because Cody hadn't checked

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<v Speaker 2>him yet. I guess maybe he was at a different

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<v Speaker 2>part of the pond or something whatever. So he shows

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<v Speaker 2>me his fishing license. And this other guy's standing at

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<v Speaker 2>the pickup truck and he's standing there at the bed

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<v Speaker 2>with his hands his arms rested up on the bedrail,

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<v Speaker 2>and I have he's cross, you know, looking across the

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<v Speaker 2>bed of the pickup front from me. So I have

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<v Speaker 2>to look walk around to the back of him, and

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<v Speaker 2>I do. And I decided that I'm just going to

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<v Speaker 2>handcuff this guy, you know, and get him into custody.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I told him and said, hey, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>whatever I said. I don't remember if I told him

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<v Speaker 2>you've got warrants for your rest or whatever, but I

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<v Speaker 2>instructed him to put his hands behind his back and

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<v Speaker 2>go through that motion. And as he's doing that, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>reaching for my handcuffs at the same time, and he

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<v Speaker 2>puts his hands behind his back, and then he bolts

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<v Speaker 2>and he runs and he takes off to the right.

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<v Speaker 2>The pawn's right behind us, twenty yards or so, the

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<v Speaker 2>edge of it, and so he bolts to the right

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<v Speaker 2>and just takes off sprinting, and I presume and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>probably in twenty yards, I've tackled Dean, and so now

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<v Speaker 2>the fight's on where he's not complying. You know, I've

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<v Speaker 2>tackled him, but he's not going to lay there and

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<v Speaker 2>let me cuffing. You know, he's scrambling, trying to get up.

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<v Speaker 2>And he's quite a bit bigger than me. He's probably

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<v Speaker 2>got forty pounds on me, and you know, taller, a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit taller than me too. He's pretty stout guy.

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<v Speaker 2>And so it's all I can handle, not handling him.

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<v Speaker 2>Can't keep him on the ground. He gets up, well,

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<v Speaker 2>instead of disengaging and trying to run again, now he's

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<v Speaker 2>attacking me, and so he's trying to wrestle me to

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<v Speaker 2>the ground. And so now I've went into defense and

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<v Speaker 2>trying to keep my feet and so this this wrestling

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<v Speaker 2>match of him trying to drag me to the grounds

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<v Speaker 2>going on, and I'm merely just trying to stay on

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<v Speaker 2>my feet at this point. And you know, in my mind,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm thinking, Okay, I got to keep my feet, but

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<v Speaker 2>I got to get back control of this guy because

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<v Speaker 2>right now he's just I'm just defending and I've got

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<v Speaker 2>to get back on offense and get him under control.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is going on, and I mean it's it's

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<v Speaker 2>mere seconds, but it really felt like it's minutes of

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<v Speaker 2>fighting going on. And you know, he's got me by

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<v Speaker 2>the collar, trying to drag me down, trying to sling

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<v Speaker 2>me to the ground, whatever he can do. But I'm

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<v Speaker 2>maintaining throwing punching. Now he hasn't thrown any punches. He's

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<v Speaker 2>just grappling you, just trying to get me, trying to

0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.000
<v Speaker 2>drag me physically, drag me down, is what he's trying

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<v Speaker 2>to do. And I'm maintaining my feet and keeping that

0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:18.280
<v Speaker 2>from happening. But I'm thinking in my head, where's this

0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:22.920
<v Speaker 2>other guy at? And I'd start thinking, I gotta check

0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:25.440
<v Speaker 2>this other guy because I may be fixing to get

0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.560
<v Speaker 2>smoked in the back of the head or something. And

0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:32.960
<v Speaker 2>I managed to get to a point to where I

0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:36.880
<v Speaker 2>could get a look, and I see the guy standing

0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:39.480
<v Speaker 2>where he was standing when I left him, and he's

0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:44.000
<v Speaker 2>just standing there looking, you know, not doing anything, which

0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:47.560
<v Speaker 2>at the time for me, I thought, that's fine, that's great,

0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:50.320
<v Speaker 2>just stand there. You know, he's not not trying to

0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.320
<v Speaker 2>help me, but he's not doing anything to try to

0:14:53.360 --> 0:15:01.360
<v Speaker 2>hurt me either. This wrestling continues, and eventually this guy

0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:07.440
<v Speaker 2>just lunges and just in a perfect form, tackle shoulder

0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.640
<v Speaker 2>in my in my gut and wraps me up and

0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:14.240
<v Speaker 2>we just launch into the pond and I'm on my

0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:19.240
<v Speaker 2>back and so he's you know, I'm under the water

0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:23.560
<v Speaker 2>now and on my back and he's on top of me,

0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:32.480
<v Speaker 2>and he he's you know, in full mount, you know,

0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:38.880
<v Speaker 2>he's I assume, of course I can't see, but I

0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:42.760
<v Speaker 2>assume his knees are laid over me right of like

0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:45.080
<v Speaker 2>where my gun belt would be in my gun in

0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:48.080
<v Speaker 2>my side arm, because I can't get to it. I'm trying,

0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:52.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, and I can't. Well, he's got me. Of course.

0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:54.440
<v Speaker 2>My first instinct was to get up, but I can't

0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:56.480
<v Speaker 2>get up because he's on me. But he also grabs

0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:59.360
<v Speaker 2>a hold of me like by the collar or the

0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:03.840
<v Speaker 2>shirt my chest, and he pushes me down and he

0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:06.920
<v Speaker 2>actually started shaking me under the water like he was

0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:09.360
<v Speaker 2>trying to, you know, drown me, like you would see

0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:13.760
<v Speaker 2>somebody on TV shaking somebody under the water. And he's

0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:19.080
<v Speaker 2>doing that and I'm laying there and in my mind,

0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:23.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm it's slow. I mean, everything went real slow. And

0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:27.040
<v Speaker 2>I was sitting there thinking, Okay, I know where I'm at,

0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:28.600
<v Speaker 2>and I know what I know what I got to do,

0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:45.920
<v Speaker 2>and I don't have any recollection of how but my

0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:50.840
<v Speaker 2>next my next thought is, or my next memory is

0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:54.360
<v Speaker 2>he's off of me, and I'm standing up, and I'm

0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:56.600
<v Speaker 2>telling myself, get up and get your gun, Get up

0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:58.080
<v Speaker 2>and get your gun. Get up and get your gun.

0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:01.000
<v Speaker 2>And so I come up out of the water and

0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:08.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm getting my gun and he had bolted, well, I

0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:14.200
<v Speaker 2>say bolted. He was off to my left, and uh

0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:17.760
<v Speaker 2>I had I think I had hollered at him. But

0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:21.040
<v Speaker 2>he's coming at me like he was over here on

0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:25.000
<v Speaker 2>my left as what I was, what I remember, And

0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:31.040
<v Speaker 2>he's coming at me, and I believe I had hollered stop,

0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:34.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, but he's coming through the water. We're still

0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:37.680
<v Speaker 2>in he's still in the water. I'm still in the water,

0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:40.639
<v Speaker 2>but the water is like knee deep, and he's coming

0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:43.240
<v Speaker 2>at me, and it's like somebody trying to run or

0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:45.960
<v Speaker 2>hurry through the water. He's really side to side and

0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:50.000
<v Speaker 2>working at trying to get to me quick. And I have,

0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:53.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, drawn my gun, and I've got the gun

0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:56.800
<v Speaker 2>cleared the holster about the time he's right at me,

0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:02.359
<v Speaker 2>and I shoot him twice, and in my mind I

0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:08.120
<v Speaker 2>had well, I'll just say I shot him twice. And

0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:12.160
<v Speaker 2>he he turns to his right and kind of puts

0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.560
<v Speaker 2>his his hands up and says, I give up as

0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:26.639
<v Speaker 2>he falls into the water, face down, And so I

0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.760
<v Speaker 2>command him, put your hands behind your back, you know,

0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:32.880
<v Speaker 2>and he does. He hears me, and he complies, puts

0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.639
<v Speaker 2>his hands behind his back. I holster my gun and

0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:38.800
<v Speaker 2>I cuff him, and I roll him over on his

0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:40.840
<v Speaker 2>back and I drag him out of the water onto

0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:47.359
<v Speaker 2>the bank, and that, you know, from there, I was

0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.560
<v Speaker 2>trying to administer a first aid. I had stood up,

0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:55.480
<v Speaker 2>actually back up, I had stood up, and I look

0:18:55.600 --> 0:19:01.520
<v Speaker 2>up and my partner, he's driving the truck. I see

0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:03.760
<v Speaker 2>him pull up. He is just now pulled up to

0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.000
<v Speaker 2>the scene. This whole time, he has no idea that

0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:09.959
<v Speaker 2>this is going on, because about the time that I

0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.800
<v Speaker 2>got over there, he got that gal loaded up in

0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:17.160
<v Speaker 2>the truck and they started driving over there, and all

0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:20.600
<v Speaker 2>that took place. And I think they had the time

0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:23.240
<v Speaker 2>frame from radio traffic that it was like a minute

0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:26.720
<v Speaker 2>had took place from him getting in his truck and

0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:30.560
<v Speaker 2>driving over there and discovering what had just took place.

0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:36.000
<v Speaker 2>And so I stand up from this pond and see him,

0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:40.159
<v Speaker 2>and he gets out, and I holler at him to

0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:42.840
<v Speaker 2>throw me as first aid kit because we all have

0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:46.440
<v Speaker 2>a you know, a kit in our truck, and he does.

0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:52.639
<v Speaker 2>And anyway, I try to give this guy some some

0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:57.320
<v Speaker 2>aid to his gunshot wounds. I try to find them,

0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:01.040
<v Speaker 2>but I can't find them. Took a shirt put pulled

0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.480
<v Speaker 2>his shirt up and was trying to find these these wounds.

0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:05.399
<v Speaker 2>I knew I should I shot him twice, but I

0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:10.399
<v Speaker 2>can't find these gunshot wounds. And and I remember thinking,

0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:13.720
<v Speaker 2>what in the heck, because in my mind I knew

0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.840
<v Speaker 2>exactly where they were at when I pressed the trigger,

0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:28.040
<v Speaker 2>they weren't there. And anyway, he he didn't make it, unfortunately,

0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:34.560
<v Speaker 2>and we we radioed for help and you know, Cody

0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:37.080
<v Speaker 2>was able to secure the other guy that was there,

0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:41.120
<v Speaker 2>and we ended up having to you know, give directions

0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:43.760
<v Speaker 2>to the county where we were at and how how

0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:46.159
<v Speaker 2>to get there, you know, and they they showed up

0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:50.800
<v Speaker 2>and and took over the scene and all that. So

0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:55.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, from there, you've got, uh, this one guy

0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:59.280
<v Speaker 2>that sat there and watched the whole thing, and and

0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:02.960
<v Speaker 2>I remember thinking, you know, that guy, he's going to

0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:05.960
<v Speaker 2>have to tell this story. And I remember wondering what

0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:07.560
<v Speaker 2>story was he going to tell?

0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:12.520
<v Speaker 1>You know, And but this is the guy that you've helped,

0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:16.360
<v Speaker 1>but this is also his obviously a buddy, a friend

0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:17.280
<v Speaker 1>of his or whatever.

0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:30.600
<v Speaker 4>You know.

0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:35.880
<v Speaker 2>Fast forward to me having to sit down with investigators

0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:40.520
<v Speaker 2>and and or the investigator for the Ocloma State Guirreau

0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:43.320
<v Speaker 2>of Investigation and and tell my story.

0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:45.840
<v Speaker 3>You know, can I can? I ask you?

0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:49.320
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to disrupt your flow, but what's what's

0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:53.119
<v Speaker 1>going through your mind when you know this guy is

0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:54.280
<v Speaker 1>not going to live?

0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:55.439
<v Speaker 2>Are you?

0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:58.280
<v Speaker 1>I mean like kind of just thinking what you know

0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:01.680
<v Speaker 1>you're now up against in terms of.

0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:05.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so this this time, you know, this was twenty fifteen,

0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:09.840
<v Speaker 2>there was a lot going on with law enforcement there

0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:14.119
<v Speaker 2>was riots, and and you know, there had been some

0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:17.760
<v Speaker 2>incidents that were you know, in the news that from

0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:22.439
<v Speaker 2>people that were unarmed that got shot by law enforcement officers,

0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:25.679
<v Speaker 2>and that those sort of things were going on, and

0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:31.119
<v Speaker 2>that actually crossed my mind, you know, not during the event,

0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:35.840
<v Speaker 2>but right after it happened. I'm now thinking, you know,

0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:37.960
<v Speaker 2>here we are with all this stuff going on, and

0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:41.520
<v Speaker 2>law enforcement's getting you know, hammered in the media and

0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:45.160
<v Speaker 2>getting portrayed to be the bad guys constantly, and here

0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:48.399
<v Speaker 2>this guy is. He ain't armed, you know, And I

0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:50.679
<v Speaker 2>thought about that while I was standing there. And this

0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:53.080
<v Speaker 2>guy's not made it, you know, he's passed away.

0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:59.640
<v Speaker 1>Less than a year earlier, on August ninth, twenty fourteen,

0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:04.560
<v Speaker 1>eighteen year old unarmed Michael Brown was killed by police

0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:09.080
<v Speaker 1>in Ferguson, Missouri, which created a national uproar in riots

0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:13.920
<v Speaker 1>in the streets. When officers in twenty fifteen, this very

0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:17.240
<v Speaker 1>year that all this took place with Officer Kramer, these

0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:22.639
<v Speaker 1>officers in Ferguson were found justified in the use of

0:23:22.760 --> 0:23:27.080
<v Speaker 1>deadly force. They were essentially acquitted. It's hard to forget

0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:30.080
<v Speaker 1>the tension in the air since that time, as law

0:23:30.200 --> 0:23:34.199
<v Speaker 1>enforcement has been under intense scrutiny and has had to

0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:38.280
<v Speaker 1>continue to do their job upholding the law. These were

0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:43.320
<v Speaker 1>incredibly intense times and Officer Kramer has found himself right

0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:48.040
<v Speaker 1>in the middle of it. What a nightmare. And secondly,

0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:51.439
<v Speaker 1>you remember the woman that his partner had arrested that

0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:54.879
<v Speaker 1>was connected with this crew. Well, his partner and this

0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:58.880
<v Speaker 1>woman were completely out of view of the fight. They

0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:02.639
<v Speaker 1>never saw a thing. But later in court she claimed

0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:06.160
<v Speaker 1>that she had witnessed the fight and told a completely

0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:10.240
<v Speaker 1>different story than Officer Kramer and this other guy that

0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:12.080
<v Speaker 1>was standing right there beside him.

0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:18.919
<v Speaker 2>My lawyer and I show up to give a you know,

0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:25.120
<v Speaker 2>the formal statement to the investigators. They've already interviewed these

0:24:25.160 --> 0:24:28.320
<v Speaker 2>other witnesses and whatever, and they're waiting to do mine.

0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:31.000
<v Speaker 2>And we sat down and do it. And so I

0:24:31.040 --> 0:24:33.360
<v Speaker 2>tell that story just like I told it to you,

0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:38.960
<v Speaker 2>and probably close to word for word. And after it

0:24:39.000 --> 0:24:44.479
<v Speaker 2>was done, the investigator asked me if I wanted to

0:24:44.520 --> 0:24:50.720
<v Speaker 2>see what the eyewitnesses story was. What he said, okay,

0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:55.800
<v Speaker 2>So they handed me the statement and I read it,

0:24:55.840 --> 0:24:58.000
<v Speaker 2>and it was almost word for word or what I said,

0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:02.680
<v Speaker 2>and the only the only thing that was there might

0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:04.800
<v Speaker 2>have been a couple of little things different because there

0:25:04.840 --> 0:25:07.159
<v Speaker 2>always will be, but it was, I mean, it was

0:25:07.200 --> 0:25:11.040
<v Speaker 2>the exact story. The main difference for me, and it

0:25:11.119 --> 0:25:13.280
<v Speaker 2>was a piece of the puzzle that I've never been

0:25:13.320 --> 0:25:16.280
<v Speaker 2>able to get back myself was he stated that I

0:25:16.400 --> 0:25:19.080
<v Speaker 2>kicked this guy off of me, and that the guy

0:25:19.160 --> 0:25:23.080
<v Speaker 2>landed on his butt in the water and then got up.

0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:28.760
<v Speaker 2>But I have no recollection if that's what really happened

0:25:28.840 --> 0:25:30.560
<v Speaker 2>or not. I just know that the guy's off of me,

0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:32.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, and I got to get up.

0:25:32.880 --> 0:25:36.000
<v Speaker 1>Well. Wouldn't that make sense though, I mean, because because

0:25:36.119 --> 0:25:39.119
<v Speaker 1>it's it's like you're under water and then all of

0:25:39.160 --> 0:25:41.280
<v Speaker 1>a sudden he's off of you. If he was trying

0:25:41.280 --> 0:25:45.120
<v Speaker 1>to leave you, feels like he would have kept going.

0:25:45.280 --> 0:25:48.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but he didn't. He re engaged again for the

0:25:48.200 --> 0:25:52.720
<v Speaker 2>second time, you know, and decided he wanted to, I guess,

0:25:53.640 --> 0:25:56.920
<v Speaker 2>play this one one more time. But in my mind

0:25:56.960 --> 0:25:58.479
<v Speaker 2>I had to, you know, I had to make that

0:25:58.520 --> 0:26:00.760
<v Speaker 2>decision of I'm not going to fight this guy in

0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:04.360
<v Speaker 2>the water again. You know, that's not happening when I'm

0:26:04.400 --> 0:26:05.400
<v Speaker 2>not going back down there.

0:26:07.720 --> 0:26:11.200
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going back down there. I think that phrase

0:26:11.280 --> 0:26:14.960
<v Speaker 1>paints a clear picture of the direness of the situation

0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:18.480
<v Speaker 1>for Officer Kramer. Sometimes you just wonder what in the

0:26:18.520 --> 0:26:22.400
<v Speaker 1>world someone is thinking. Who's fighting a law enforcement officer

0:26:22.600 --> 0:26:26.159
<v Speaker 1>who has the legal right to protect themselves with deadly force.

0:26:26.640 --> 0:26:29.680
<v Speaker 1>Do people know this? Are they just rolling the dice?

0:26:29.840 --> 0:26:33.359
<v Speaker 1>Are they crazy? Are they high? Do they care if

0:26:33.400 --> 0:26:37.119
<v Speaker 1>they live or die? It's hard to know, but it

0:26:37.280 --> 0:26:42.320
<v Speaker 1>happens every single day. This logic makes it easy to think, well,

0:26:42.560 --> 0:26:45.640
<v Speaker 1>this criminal got what he deserved and what he asked for.

0:26:46.560 --> 0:26:49.119
<v Speaker 1>But I can't help think of what a sad state

0:26:49.160 --> 0:26:52.720
<v Speaker 1>of life, what dire straits a person would have to

0:26:52.800 --> 0:26:55.840
<v Speaker 1>be in to act this way. I cannot understand it

0:26:55.960 --> 0:26:59.560
<v Speaker 1>or reconcile it. Fighting a law enforcement officer is like

0:26:59.680 --> 0:27:04.000
<v Speaker 1>fist fighting a black mamba. You're probably going to get struck.

0:27:05.240 --> 0:27:08.240
<v Speaker 1>But what's gonna now happen for Officer Kramer.

0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:14.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and another kid bit there about the that witness.

0:27:14.840 --> 0:27:20.679
<v Speaker 2>He did say at some point he told the truth

0:27:20.800 --> 0:27:25.240
<v Speaker 2>because he believed I was a good guy, because I

0:27:25.320 --> 0:27:29.160
<v Speaker 2>had helped him out and made that right for him,

0:27:29.560 --> 0:27:31.359
<v Speaker 2>and he wasn't gonna lie.

0:27:31.920 --> 0:27:35.040
<v Speaker 1>Wow, Yeah, that's man, that's when when you told that

0:27:35.080 --> 0:27:37.600
<v Speaker 1>part of the story. I was like God was looking

0:27:37.600 --> 0:27:40.840
<v Speaker 1>out for you mean, he really was, because that could

0:27:40.840 --> 0:27:45.600
<v Speaker 1>have gone completely the other direction, you know, I mean,

0:27:45.640 --> 0:27:49.240
<v Speaker 1>just to have a witness there that you had just

0:27:49.480 --> 0:27:51.879
<v Speaker 1>randomly done a good thing for.

0:27:52.400 --> 0:27:53.920
<v Speaker 3>I mean, what are the chances of that?

0:27:54.080 --> 0:27:54.520
<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

0:27:54.600 --> 0:27:56.919
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because who knows how it would have turned out

0:27:56.960 --> 0:28:01.520
<v Speaker 2>if that guy wasn't present that day and now it's

0:28:01.960 --> 0:28:05.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, you got my story and and get this

0:28:05.720 --> 0:28:08.840
<v Speaker 2>other so called witness and her story. It would have

0:28:08.880 --> 0:28:10.800
<v Speaker 2>been a completely different deal. I mean it would have.

0:28:11.080 --> 0:28:17.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, if that guy had corroborated the same false story

0:28:17.560 --> 0:28:21.960
<v Speaker 1>the woman told, this story could have turned out completely different.

0:28:22.920 --> 0:28:26.080
<v Speaker 1>But what happens now the thing is just starting for

0:28:26.160 --> 0:28:30.720
<v Speaker 1>Officer Kramer. Actually this was just the start of years

0:28:30.960 --> 0:28:32.119
<v Speaker 1>of lack of resolution.

0:28:33.960 --> 0:28:38.160
<v Speaker 2>Wow. But that's that's the short, not really the short,

0:28:38.200 --> 0:28:41.440
<v Speaker 2>but that's the gist of what happened there on the

0:28:41.520 --> 0:28:45.560
<v Speaker 2>on the scene. And you know, from there there was

0:28:46.360 --> 0:28:49.360
<v Speaker 2>of course the criminal side of it, which you know,

0:28:49.440 --> 0:28:52.400
<v Speaker 2>every officer that is involved in such is going to

0:28:52.480 --> 0:28:55.880
<v Speaker 2>be there's going to be a criminal investigation. And of

0:28:55.920 --> 0:29:00.760
<v Speaker 2>course that that was determined to justify, you know, I

0:29:00.800 --> 0:29:03.480
<v Speaker 2>was justified in my actions, So there was no criminal

0:29:03.960 --> 0:29:09.080
<v Speaker 2>ramifications or whatever coming there. But that following year, I

0:29:09.080 --> 0:29:12.680
<v Speaker 2>think it was about right out a year after the incident,

0:29:13.320 --> 0:29:18.160
<v Speaker 2>the family of the suspect they filed the federal lawsuit.

0:29:18.640 --> 0:29:23.080
<v Speaker 2>So that was basically accusing me of violating Fourth Amendment right,

0:29:23.480 --> 0:29:26.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, unlawful search and seizure, taking this guy's life.

0:29:27.560 --> 0:29:32.040
<v Speaker 2>And that played out for years, several years really yeah,

0:29:32.360 --> 0:29:34.720
<v Speaker 2>just a lot of it was I think just the

0:29:35.320 --> 0:29:39.480
<v Speaker 2>slow process of the federal court system. But the short

0:29:39.560 --> 0:29:45.240
<v Speaker 2>version of that was it was it was deemed by

0:29:45.320 --> 0:29:47.400
<v Speaker 2>the judge, federal judge that it would go to a

0:29:47.440 --> 0:29:53.600
<v Speaker 2>trial and that I was being represented by the okahom

0:29:53.600 --> 0:29:56.800
<v Speaker 2>Attorney General's office, and they filed an appeal with the

0:29:56.840 --> 0:30:00.800
<v Speaker 2>tenth Circuit District Court out of Denver, and they decided

0:30:00.840 --> 0:30:05.320
<v Speaker 2>otherwise that it would be dismissed. So that was the

0:30:05.440 --> 0:30:05.800
<v Speaker 2>end of that.

0:30:06.120 --> 0:30:09.440
<v Speaker 1>But when all that was going on was that I

0:30:09.760 --> 0:30:10.480
<v Speaker 1>was that stressful.

0:30:10.560 --> 0:30:13.800
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, that's that's the worst part, you know, I mean,

0:30:14.120 --> 0:30:17.400
<v Speaker 2>I say it was the worst part. It was because

0:30:17.400 --> 0:30:20.160
<v Speaker 2>of the duration how long that took.

0:30:20.400 --> 0:30:24.880
<v Speaker 1>You know, can you walk me through your training in

0:30:24.920 --> 0:30:28.160
<v Speaker 1>a situation like that, Like, I know, any level of

0:30:28.640 --> 0:30:32.000
<v Speaker 1>law enforcement training these days I mean there is a

0:30:32.120 --> 0:30:37.760
<v Speaker 1>prescribed action basically for any category of situation like you're

0:30:38.200 --> 0:30:41.440
<v Speaker 1>I know, there's there's probably there's gray areas that they're

0:30:41.520 --> 0:30:44.800
<v Speaker 1>they're just naturally it's going to be. But like there's

0:30:44.840 --> 0:30:49.160
<v Speaker 1>certain just laws that if this happens, I do this,

0:30:49.280 --> 0:30:51.400
<v Speaker 1>and I mean that's just part of your job.

0:30:52.160 --> 0:30:57.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So the you know, we're being trained and have

0:30:58.040 --> 0:31:01.640
<v Speaker 2>to abide by what we call the use of force

0:31:01.840 --> 0:31:07.400
<v Speaker 2>continuum laws governing the use of deadly force, which you

0:31:07.440 --> 0:31:10.600
<v Speaker 2>know basically say that you know, if somebody is trying

0:31:10.640 --> 0:31:14.880
<v Speaker 2>to do me physical harm, trying to kill me, or

0:31:15.000 --> 0:31:21.720
<v Speaker 2>serious bodily injury, that elevates to the justification of the

0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:25.520
<v Speaker 2>use of deadly force to prevent that from happening. You know,

0:31:25.720 --> 0:31:27.400
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't have to be on me, It can be

0:31:27.440 --> 0:31:30.200
<v Speaker 2>on any citizen that they're you know that I am

0:31:30.360 --> 0:31:34.520
<v Speaker 2>justified to use that level of force to prevent somebody

0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:37.280
<v Speaker 2>from harming you in that manner, taking your life, or

0:31:37.280 --> 0:31:42.400
<v Speaker 2>doing serious bodily injury. So that's the first and foremost

0:31:43.120 --> 0:31:50.360
<v Speaker 2>is you know, was the person capable of inflicting that injury,

0:31:50.400 --> 0:31:55.000
<v Speaker 2>did they have the intent to do it, and did

0:31:55.040 --> 0:31:58.560
<v Speaker 2>they have the opportunity to complete it, and all three

0:31:58.640 --> 0:32:02.320
<v Speaker 2>of those things have to be present in order for

0:32:02.440 --> 0:32:06.200
<v Speaker 2>it to be justified for me to make that decision

0:32:06.280 --> 0:32:10.120
<v Speaker 2>to use that deadly force. You know, they could have

0:32:10.200 --> 0:32:12.760
<v Speaker 2>the intent and the means to do it, but it

0:32:12.840 --> 0:32:15.280
<v Speaker 2>may not have the opportunity to actually do it, and

0:32:15.360 --> 0:32:19.160
<v Speaker 2>so it doesn't it won't work. I would be unjustified,

0:32:19.400 --> 0:32:23.040
<v Speaker 2>you know. And in this case, you know, the guy

0:32:23.640 --> 0:32:27.280
<v Speaker 2>his means was his physical ability to hold me under

0:32:27.320 --> 0:32:33.640
<v Speaker 2>the water and you know, subdue me and make that attempt.

0:32:33.760 --> 0:32:37.200
<v Speaker 2>And it's clear to me that he had that ability there.

0:32:39.160 --> 0:32:43.280
<v Speaker 2>He obviously showed the intent and the opportunity was there

0:32:43.280 --> 0:32:46.400
<v Speaker 2>and he seized it. So he met all that criteria,

0:32:46.440 --> 0:32:51.200
<v Speaker 2>which is in my mind just my training. Not thinking

0:32:51.240 --> 0:32:54.680
<v Speaker 2>about that. I'm not checking those boxes. They're just that's

0:32:54.840 --> 0:32:58.440
<v Speaker 2>just trained in me. But I will say that at

0:32:58.480 --> 0:33:04.680
<v Speaker 2>the those split seconds of time where I'm seeing what's

0:33:04.720 --> 0:33:08.960
<v Speaker 2>happening and I'm I've got my gun drawn, there was

0:33:09.000 --> 0:33:14.160
<v Speaker 2>a thought process of is is this good? You know,

0:33:14.200 --> 0:33:17.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm asking my I'm running that down. Is this good? Right?

0:33:17.960 --> 0:33:22.280
<v Speaker 2>And that was the only question I asked myself, and I.

0:33:22.520 --> 0:33:23.600
<v Speaker 3>Had to make that decision.

0:33:24.280 --> 0:33:29.160
<v Speaker 1>I guess the water is what if you're uncoverable with

0:33:29.160 --> 0:33:30.720
<v Speaker 1>this question, we don't have to put this on there.

0:33:31.360 --> 0:33:33.080
<v Speaker 3>You probably wouldn't have shot him if it hadn't been

0:33:33.120 --> 0:33:33.520
<v Speaker 3>for the.

0:33:33.440 --> 0:33:35.960
<v Speaker 2>Water, though, right, that was his means.

0:33:36.280 --> 0:33:38.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean, because like if you were just wrestling on

0:33:38.360 --> 0:33:40.880
<v Speaker 1>the ground with a guy that was just trying to

0:33:40.920 --> 0:33:41.880
<v Speaker 1>get you down.

0:33:42.200 --> 0:33:44.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he never would have. He would have had to

0:33:44.640 --> 0:33:45.920
<v Speaker 2>have done something something.

0:33:45.840 --> 0:33:48.480
<v Speaker 1>Being reached for your gun or if he had had

0:33:48.520 --> 0:33:49.320
<v Speaker 1>a weapon.

0:33:49.080 --> 0:33:52.600
<v Speaker 2>Right, that's totally different. The water is what the means were.

0:33:52.880 --> 0:33:56.520
<v Speaker 2>That's the means of him having the ability to take

0:33:56.560 --> 0:34:00.880
<v Speaker 2>my life. Was the water that was his weapon. Yeah,

0:34:00.920 --> 0:34:04.000
<v Speaker 2>so that's that's exactly right. If it wasn't for that,

0:34:05.280 --> 0:34:07.440
<v Speaker 2>it'd have been just to fight on the ground, you know,

0:34:07.640 --> 0:34:08.719
<v Speaker 2>and I'd have been trying to do it.

0:34:09.040 --> 0:34:11.640
<v Speaker 3>You wouldn't have been justified, right and deadly force.

0:34:11.800 --> 0:34:14.239
<v Speaker 2>Just if he would have had to have done something else.

0:34:14.400 --> 0:34:15.799
<v Speaker 2>You know, he'd had to have been picking up a

0:34:15.880 --> 0:34:17.520
<v Speaker 2>rock and trying to beat me in the head with it,

0:34:17.640 --> 0:34:20.279
<v Speaker 2>or you know, a stick or something. He would have

0:34:20.280 --> 0:34:24.640
<v Speaker 2>had to have some other kind of weapon to to

0:34:24.680 --> 0:34:25.719
<v Speaker 2>reach that threshold.

0:34:25.920 --> 0:34:27.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, that makes total sense.

0:34:28.000 --> 0:34:30.160
<v Speaker 2>But we're still standing in the water. You know, and

0:34:30.239 --> 0:34:34.120
<v Speaker 2>he's re engaging to attack me again while we're still

0:34:34.160 --> 0:34:37.480
<v Speaker 2>in the water, and so that that's what justified that.

0:34:38.800 --> 0:34:40.120
<v Speaker 3>Godly, that's wild man.

0:34:40.560 --> 0:34:44.040
<v Speaker 1>You know, probably never in a thousand lifetimes of a

0:34:44.440 --> 0:34:45.920
<v Speaker 1>wildlife officer did something.

0:34:45.719 --> 0:34:46.320
<v Speaker 3>Like that happen.

0:34:46.480 --> 0:34:46.759
<v Speaker 2>Is that?

0:34:46.800 --> 0:34:48.800
<v Speaker 3>Would you say? That's probably accurate?

0:34:49.760 --> 0:34:55.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't know of another, you know, incident like that. Yeah.

0:34:55.440 --> 0:35:08.719
<v Speaker 1>Similar to justify the use of lethal force, the perpetrator

0:35:08.760 --> 0:35:12.480
<v Speaker 1>has to have three things, the intent, the means, and

0:35:12.520 --> 0:35:15.840
<v Speaker 1>the opportunity. And in this case, the most unusual and

0:35:16.080 --> 0:35:20.879
<v Speaker 1>unprecedented thing was the means to kill being water. The

0:35:20.920 --> 0:35:24.080
<v Speaker 1>water was equivalent to a gun or a knife, or

0:35:24.160 --> 0:35:27.440
<v Speaker 1>a rock or a club. And if you've ever almost drowned,

0:35:27.440 --> 0:35:30.799
<v Speaker 1>I think you'll understand that. It goes without saying that

0:35:30.880 --> 0:35:34.400
<v Speaker 1>any time a human life is taken, it's extremely serious.

0:35:35.000 --> 0:35:38.320
<v Speaker 1>And just because someone is a convicted felon on the run,

0:35:38.520 --> 0:35:42.040
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't lessen their value as a human and a

0:35:42.080 --> 0:35:45.800
<v Speaker 1>fellow partaker of the breath of life. It is wild

0:35:45.840 --> 0:35:48.759
<v Speaker 1>that this took place less than seventy miles away from

0:35:48.760 --> 0:35:54.080
<v Speaker 1>where Bucky Garrison drowned in nineteen seventy one. Here's Officer

0:35:54.160 --> 0:35:58.440
<v Speaker 1>Kramer with a very interesting detail about the psychology of

0:35:58.480 --> 0:36:00.080
<v Speaker 1>these types of situations.

0:36:02.920 --> 0:36:06.160
<v Speaker 2>And I will backtrack to say to fill in a

0:36:06.200 --> 0:36:09.120
<v Speaker 2>spot that I left open there about his gunshot wounds.

0:36:10.280 --> 0:36:15.040
<v Speaker 2>And I don't remember the terminology of what it is,

0:36:15.160 --> 0:36:19.440
<v Speaker 2>but the I guess it's pretty common that in that situation,

0:36:19.680 --> 0:36:23.920
<v Speaker 2>In those situations, that your brain is not processing in

0:36:24.000 --> 0:36:32.280
<v Speaker 2>real time, and so my brain is seeing or telling

0:36:32.360 --> 0:36:35.719
<v Speaker 2>me what I think were what I know, and that

0:36:35.840 --> 0:36:39.520
<v Speaker 2>this guy was squared up to me, and because I

0:36:39.600 --> 0:36:41.919
<v Speaker 2>believed that I knew where I had hit him, but

0:36:42.000 --> 0:36:48.279
<v Speaker 2>the reality was was he had turned to his let

0:36:48.360 --> 0:36:51.759
<v Speaker 2>to his right when I had shot, but I didn't

0:36:51.800 --> 0:36:54.880
<v Speaker 2>see that. My brain didn't process that it was behind.

0:36:55.680 --> 0:36:59.680
<v Speaker 2>So I'm pressing the trigger, but my brain is still

0:37:00.040 --> 0:37:03.960
<v Speaker 2>behind on where he's located. And I guess that's pretty

0:37:03.960 --> 0:37:07.640
<v Speaker 2>common for somebody to get shot in the back, but

0:37:07.760 --> 0:37:11.799
<v Speaker 2>that's not what the officer intended because in their mind

0:37:11.840 --> 0:37:14.080
<v Speaker 2>they were still facing them, but they had turned, and this.

0:37:14.160 --> 0:37:15.400
<v Speaker 3>Was exactly what happened.

0:37:15.840 --> 0:37:19.759
<v Speaker 2>He's actually turned before those shots went off, and so

0:37:19.920 --> 0:37:23.000
<v Speaker 2>he was hit in the side with the ribs and

0:37:23.040 --> 0:37:27.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm looking for him on the front of his torso

0:37:27.320 --> 0:37:29.600
<v Speaker 2>and can't see him because in my brain I thought

0:37:29.600 --> 0:37:31.600
<v Speaker 2>that I know exactly where they're at, but they weren't.

0:37:31.760 --> 0:37:34.880
<v Speaker 2>They were around the side because he had turned to

0:37:34.920 --> 0:37:36.799
<v Speaker 2>move away, tried to get away from me, you know,

0:37:36.840 --> 0:37:40.200
<v Speaker 2>when he realized what was fixing to happen, you know.

0:37:40.640 --> 0:37:43.640
<v Speaker 2>And I didn't never knew that until I was told,

0:37:44.280 --> 0:37:46.759
<v Speaker 2>you know, this is where he was hit. And that

0:37:46.880 --> 0:37:48.880
<v Speaker 2>was a complete shock to me because I would have

0:37:49.080 --> 0:37:51.680
<v Speaker 2>bet the farm and I knew exactly where they went.

0:37:54.840 --> 0:37:57.840
<v Speaker 1>The razor edge of time is faster than the human

0:37:57.960 --> 0:38:01.560
<v Speaker 1>brain can compute such a precarious thing. To be a

0:38:01.640 --> 0:38:05.640
<v Speaker 1>law enforcement officer, Why couldn't this guy have just run

0:38:05.680 --> 0:38:07.799
<v Speaker 1>away when Officer Kramer's kicked him off?

0:38:08.680 --> 0:38:09.280
<v Speaker 2>He didn't.

0:38:09.640 --> 0:38:15.640
<v Speaker 1>He came right back. I've got another question, did that

0:38:16.520 --> 0:38:20.719
<v Speaker 1>affect your career? I mean, did it make you Did

0:38:20.760 --> 0:38:22.799
<v Speaker 1>you think, man, I maybe ought to get out of

0:38:22.800 --> 0:38:25.040
<v Speaker 1>this business or or did it.

0:38:24.840 --> 0:38:27.479
<v Speaker 2>You know, I don't, I don't think i've I didn't

0:38:27.480 --> 0:38:31.040
<v Speaker 2>really ever think about that about getting out, you know.

0:38:32.239 --> 0:38:34.560
<v Speaker 2>But it's definitely changed. I mean, I'll never be the

0:38:34.600 --> 0:38:41.720
<v Speaker 2>same person. And uh, it's it's uh, it has created

0:38:41.800 --> 0:38:46.400
<v Speaker 2>uh an opportunity for the good where we have some

0:38:46.520 --> 0:38:52.880
<v Speaker 2>training now because up to up to that point, we

0:38:53.000 --> 0:38:59.880
<v Speaker 2>hadn't had in a incident game warding involved shooting incidents.

0:39:00.080 --> 0:39:03.440
<v Speaker 2>Sense I don't remember. I think it was in the

0:39:03.520 --> 0:39:08.319
<v Speaker 2>nineties retired officer now, but had gotten in it, had

0:39:08.640 --> 0:39:14.080
<v Speaker 2>shot a guy and the rumors of that, how that

0:39:14.120 --> 0:39:17.959
<v Speaker 2>played out with the agency and everything, it wasn't good.

0:39:18.000 --> 0:39:20.759
<v Speaker 2>It just was kind of like a disaster for the

0:39:20.840 --> 0:39:30.239
<v Speaker 2>officer involved. And now, you know, we know as law

0:39:30.320 --> 0:39:35.200
<v Speaker 2>enforcement agencies around the country, this is not uncommon to

0:39:35.239 --> 0:39:40.440
<v Speaker 2>have these incidents, so they know more about mental health

0:39:40.560 --> 0:39:44.560
<v Speaker 2>and how things should play out, what you do and

0:39:44.600 --> 0:39:50.600
<v Speaker 2>how you do it. And my agency didn't have any experience.

0:39:50.600 --> 0:39:55.400
<v Speaker 2>There wasn't anybody working at our administrative level that was

0:39:55.440 --> 0:39:58.200
<v Speaker 2>working at the time when the last one happened, So

0:39:58.280 --> 0:40:01.239
<v Speaker 2>there wasn't any new scenario. Yeah, it was completely new.

0:40:01.600 --> 0:40:02.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and.

0:40:04.080 --> 0:40:10.719
<v Speaker 2>Thankfully those that were in that those positions, you know,

0:40:10.880 --> 0:40:15.040
<v Speaker 2>they handled it correctly. And the fact that they didn't

0:40:15.040 --> 0:40:18.759
<v Speaker 2>do anything if they were unsure about what they were doing,

0:40:18.760 --> 0:40:22.600
<v Speaker 2>and that's just and I'm saying that in regards to

0:40:22.600 --> 0:40:32.040
<v Speaker 2>to towards me, But after this took place, I decided,

0:40:32.239 --> 0:40:35.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, hey, our agency needs to be prepared how

0:40:35.560 --> 0:40:39.799
<v Speaker 2>do we handle this? And so now we have some

0:40:39.800 --> 0:40:45.880
<v Speaker 2>some good training on how do you respond, Like if

0:40:45.920 --> 0:40:48.319
<v Speaker 2>you're an officer that's out working and you get the

0:40:48.360 --> 0:40:51.560
<v Speaker 2>call that there's been an officer involved shooting, how how

0:40:51.560 --> 0:40:53.200
<v Speaker 2>do you respond to that? What do you do? What

0:40:53.200 --> 0:40:55.279
<v Speaker 2>do you need to do when you get there, you know,

0:40:56.080 --> 0:41:02.960
<v Speaker 2>And and then the other side of the for the agency,

0:41:03.120 --> 0:41:06.279
<v Speaker 2>like the supervisors of that officer, the things that they

0:41:06.280 --> 0:41:10.160
<v Speaker 2>should be doing to to help that officer you know,

0:41:10.600 --> 0:41:15.640
<v Speaker 2>through this, you know, because there there can be a

0:41:15.640 --> 0:41:19.480
<v Speaker 2>lot of struggles, you know, mentally the mental health thing

0:41:19.520 --> 0:41:21.480
<v Speaker 2>can go south, you know, and it can be a

0:41:21.520 --> 0:41:23.279
<v Speaker 2>bad It can turn out to be a really bad deal.

0:41:24.080 --> 0:41:27.680
<v Speaker 2>And and that's for me, that was an that was

0:41:27.680 --> 0:41:32.760
<v Speaker 2>something I experienced. Was nothing real negative. Nobody did anything

0:41:32.800 --> 0:41:36.000
<v Speaker 2>to me that you know, caused some negative impact. But

0:41:37.200 --> 0:41:40.200
<v Speaker 2>your brains is it's a weird deal. I mean, it

0:41:40.239 --> 0:41:47.000
<v Speaker 2>does some crazy stuff. And I remember immediately after, you know,

0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:49.640
<v Speaker 2>the next day and the next next two couple of days,

0:41:49.640 --> 0:41:53.719
<v Speaker 2>there's everybody's trying to call me, you know, and people

0:41:53.760 --> 0:41:56.880
<v Speaker 2>are wanting to know what happened, and you know, then

0:41:57.160 --> 0:42:00.279
<v Speaker 2>a lot of them are just wanting to you know, hey,

0:42:00.320 --> 0:42:02.279
<v Speaker 2>I'm glad you're all right, you know, and they got

0:42:02.280 --> 0:42:05.839
<v Speaker 2>that out of the way. Well I figured out that

0:42:05.840 --> 0:42:08.480
<v Speaker 2>that's that's all we do, is we we get that

0:42:08.480 --> 0:42:09.239
<v Speaker 2>out of the way and we.

0:42:09.239 --> 0:42:10.320
<v Speaker 3>Go on about our lives.

0:42:11.160 --> 0:42:15.520
<v Speaker 2>So what happens is it goes from all these all

0:42:15.520 --> 0:42:19.000
<v Speaker 2>this attention and people, you know, saying these good things,

0:42:19.040 --> 0:42:22.120
<v Speaker 2>and then it's crickets and you don't hear nothing, and

0:42:22.200 --> 0:42:25.239
<v Speaker 2>that starts screwing you know, was kind of screwing with me, like,

0:42:25.920 --> 0:42:28.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, what's going on? How come nobody's called you know?

0:42:30.000 --> 0:42:33.240
<v Speaker 2>You know, is this bad? You know, because there's there's

0:42:33.400 --> 0:42:36.080
<v Speaker 2>an investigation going on. Yeah, yeah, you know, am I

0:42:36.120 --> 0:42:38.960
<v Speaker 2>being blacklisted or something? And you don't. It's like so

0:42:39.120 --> 0:42:42.680
<v Speaker 2>that those kind of things that we're aware of now

0:42:43.239 --> 0:42:45.560
<v Speaker 2>that that's going to happen, so we kind of know

0:42:45.600 --> 0:42:49.200
<v Speaker 2>how to handle it, how to prevent it from turning

0:42:49.239 --> 0:42:51.360
<v Speaker 2>into something that it shouldn't or whatever.

0:42:51.640 --> 0:42:52.240
<v Speaker 3>That's interesting.

0:42:52.280 --> 0:42:56.080
<v Speaker 1>That's probably a similar thing with any kind of traumatic event,

0:42:56.280 --> 0:42:59.680
<v Speaker 1>is that you you get a lot of people who

0:42:59.719 --> 0:43:03.799
<v Speaker 1>care about you contacting you, and then yeah, it kind of.

0:43:04.239 --> 0:43:07.799
<v Speaker 3>After some period of time, Yeah, it's like nothing.

0:43:07.760 --> 0:43:09.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you you you you know.

0:43:09.719 --> 0:43:11.160
<v Speaker 3>That's interesting. I wouldn't have thought of that.

0:43:11.239 --> 0:43:16.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and your brain, you know, I guess maybe vulnerable

0:43:16.400 --> 0:43:18.319
<v Speaker 2>would be a good term you get in you're just

0:43:18.800 --> 0:43:23.719
<v Speaker 2>it's like it's very susceptible to manipulation, and you know,

0:43:23.800 --> 0:43:28.920
<v Speaker 2>you're you don't you know, you don't know what's what's

0:43:29.000 --> 0:43:31.520
<v Speaker 2>right and what's you know, like, is this normal that

0:43:31.520 --> 0:43:33.279
<v Speaker 2>they're not calling me? I mean you can't. You're not

0:43:33.320 --> 0:43:36.600
<v Speaker 2>processing that, you're not understanding' not grasping. Well, okay, well

0:43:36.640 --> 0:43:39.239
<v Speaker 2>this is just everybody has said what they wanted to

0:43:39.280 --> 0:43:40.120
<v Speaker 2>say and that's it.

0:43:40.600 --> 0:43:54.719
<v Speaker 1>Now you start thinking the worst. So what can what

0:43:54.880 --> 0:43:57.960
<v Speaker 1>could we learn from all this? Like when you tell

0:43:58.000 --> 0:44:01.520
<v Speaker 1>the story, I know, to law enforcement officers there's a

0:44:01.520 --> 0:44:05.440
<v Speaker 1>lot in terms of just like training and response and stuff.

0:44:06.040 --> 0:44:09.319
<v Speaker 1>What do you what value is there too to us

0:44:09.360 --> 0:44:12.040
<v Speaker 1>to hear the story?

0:44:12.120 --> 0:44:17.200
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's as a as a game warden. You know,

0:44:17.680 --> 0:44:23.719
<v Speaker 2>it's solidifies that you know, we're we're law enforcement officers

0:44:23.760 --> 0:44:28.600
<v Speaker 2>out there dealing with the same people that may want

0:44:28.640 --> 0:44:31.280
<v Speaker 2>to do us harm, just like any other law enforcement

0:44:31.640 --> 0:44:34.439
<v Speaker 2>you know, I think a lot of times.

0:44:34.120 --> 0:44:34.840
<v Speaker 3>We get.

0:44:36.120 --> 0:44:39.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, maybe downplayed on what you know, we're just

0:44:39.520 --> 0:44:42.400
<v Speaker 2>a wildlife cop, you know, or not a real cop

0:44:42.480 --> 0:44:46.520
<v Speaker 2>you you know whatever, But you know that's yeah, this

0:44:46.600 --> 0:44:49.600
<v Speaker 2>deal started out it's a wildlife related thing. But the whole,

0:44:49.880 --> 0:44:52.000
<v Speaker 2>the whole reason that happened was because this guy was

0:44:52.000 --> 0:44:55.200
<v Speaker 2>a criminal that was wanted, you know, and we're going

0:44:55.239 --> 0:44:57.240
<v Speaker 2>to take him to jail. We're going to make him

0:44:57.640 --> 0:45:03.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, see the judge. So ah, I guess that

0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:08.160
<v Speaker 2>would be one thing that this you know, comes should

0:45:08.160 --> 0:45:11.160
<v Speaker 2>come of this situation as people realize, yeah, we're out

0:45:11.160 --> 0:45:12.360
<v Speaker 2>there dealing with bad guys.

0:45:13.280 --> 0:45:16.640
<v Speaker 1>You know. I just think about how you see these

0:45:16.719 --> 0:45:21.759
<v Speaker 1>videos now of people engaging with law enforcement and like

0:45:21.840 --> 0:45:24.719
<v Speaker 1>in a fight or something, and it's just like, you

0:45:24.840 --> 0:45:28.319
<v Speaker 1>gotta be crazy. I mean, people should know when you

0:45:28.320 --> 0:45:30.719
<v Speaker 1>feel like everybody should know. And obviously people aren't in

0:45:30.760 --> 0:45:33.759
<v Speaker 1>their rational mind when they like put their hands on

0:45:33.840 --> 0:45:36.520
<v Speaker 1>an officer. But it's like the rule of law that

0:45:36.560 --> 0:45:39.040
<v Speaker 1>we have in this country because we all can walk

0:45:39.040 --> 0:45:42.480
<v Speaker 1>around the streets and feel safe in most places this

0:45:42.520 --> 0:45:47.200
<v Speaker 1>country is because we have law enforcement that has the

0:45:47.320 --> 0:45:51.480
<v Speaker 1>right to protect the public but also themselves. And you

0:45:51.560 --> 0:45:55.080
<v Speaker 1>lay your hands on a law enforcement officer, you might

0:45:55.120 --> 0:45:58.200
<v Speaker 1>be in big trouble. I mean that that blows my

0:45:58.280 --> 0:46:01.560
<v Speaker 1>mind when I see, you know, of people that start

0:46:01.560 --> 0:46:02.160
<v Speaker 1>thinking straight.

0:46:02.800 --> 0:46:06.799
<v Speaker 2>Well, like in this incident, this guy, he come out,

0:46:06.960 --> 0:46:11.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, in testimony from the witnesses that they had

0:46:11.080 --> 0:46:15.239
<v Speaker 2>just got done doing math. Well you know, and I

0:46:15.239 --> 0:46:17.840
<v Speaker 2>think that was part of why he was wanted, you know,

0:46:18.000 --> 0:46:20.480
<v Speaker 2>probably with some drug. I don't remember exactly, but I

0:46:20.480 --> 0:46:23.960
<v Speaker 2>believe it was something to do with that. But he

0:46:24.040 --> 0:46:28.200
<v Speaker 2>had already told this other this other guy, that he

0:46:28.280 --> 0:46:31.279
<v Speaker 2>wasn't going back. He already had that conversation before I

0:46:31.320 --> 0:46:34.279
<v Speaker 2>got over there. He made his mind up. It was

0:46:34.320 --> 0:46:37.160
<v Speaker 2>about not going back to jail. You know, he's going

0:46:37.200 --> 0:46:39.680
<v Speaker 2>to do whatever he needed to do to not go back.

0:46:40.440 --> 0:46:42.000
<v Speaker 3>So he'd already made.

0:46:41.880 --> 0:46:46.359
<v Speaker 2>That decision, yea, And that explains why he was, you know,

0:46:46.520 --> 0:46:49.759
<v Speaker 2>re engaging. He realized that I wasn't going to let

0:46:49.800 --> 0:46:52.560
<v Speaker 2>him go, wasn't going to let him just run off,

0:46:53.400 --> 0:46:55.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, So he knew I believe he knew that

0:46:55.920 --> 0:46:57.319
<v Speaker 2>he needed to take care of me.

0:46:57.640 --> 0:47:01.120
<v Speaker 1>In order to go away, to get away, I guess,

0:47:01.680 --> 0:47:04.319
<v Speaker 1>you know, the ill saying you'd be surprised at what

0:47:04.360 --> 0:47:14.240
<v Speaker 1>people do if they're really desperate. It is eye opening

0:47:14.280 --> 0:47:18.520
<v Speaker 1>to go behind the scenes with law enforcement officers, especially

0:47:19.200 --> 0:47:24.080
<v Speaker 1>in the most stressful, difficult times of their career. I

0:47:24.120 --> 0:47:27.040
<v Speaker 1>can't thank Officer Kramer enough, first of all for his

0:47:27.239 --> 0:47:31.839
<v Speaker 1>service and protecting our communities and our wildlife resources, but

0:47:32.000 --> 0:47:37.120
<v Speaker 1>secondly his willingness to tell this story anytime human life

0:47:37.120 --> 0:47:40.719
<v Speaker 1>has taken It's an incredibly serious situation, and I think

0:47:40.800 --> 0:47:45.319
<v Speaker 1>that we can all learn a lot from this. I

0:47:45.360 --> 0:47:48.680
<v Speaker 1>cannot thank you enough for listening to Bear Grease Brent's

0:47:48.719 --> 0:47:53.279
<v Speaker 1>This Country Life and Lakes Backwoods University. I hope that

0:47:53.480 --> 0:47:58.280
<v Speaker 1>everyone has a married Christmas and a wonderful New Year.

0:47:59.520 --> 0:48:02.440
<v Speaker 1>And while you're opening up those Christmas presents on December

0:48:02.480 --> 0:48:06.279
<v Speaker 1>twenty fifth, remember keep the wild places wild, because that's

0:48:06.280 --> 0:48:07.399
<v Speaker 1>where the bears live.