1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: The last episode of bear Grease was on the drowning 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:12,959 Speaker 1: of Oklahoma Wildlife Officer Melvin Bucky Garrison in nineteen seventy one. 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: The story that we're going to tell today goes separated 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: by forty four years, is eerily connected. It's the story 5 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: about the use of lethal force and the legal precedence 6 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: of water as a means of potential murder. I really 7 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: doubt that you're going to want to miss this one. 8 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 2: And he actually started shaking me under the water like 9 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 2: he was trying to drown me, like you would see 10 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 2: somebody on TV shaking somebody under the water. And he's 11 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 2: doing that, and I'm laying there and in my mind, 12 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 2: I'm it's slow. I mean, everything went real slow. And 13 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 2: I was sitting there thinking, Okay, I know where I'm at, 14 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 2: I know what I got to do. 15 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:11,839 Speaker 1: My name is Clay Knukem, and this is the Bear 16 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: Grease podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search 17 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the 18 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 1: story of Americans who live their lives close to the land. 19 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: Presented by FHF Gear, American made purpose built hunting and 20 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: fishing gear as designed to be as rugged as the 21 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: place as we explore, I'd like to introduce you to 22 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: Oklahoma Wildlife Officer Jared Kramer. I'd say Jared is in 23 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: his forties. He has a very serious demeanor. He's kind 24 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: of fit and wiry, and I could immediately tell he 25 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: takes his job extremely serious. I want to jump right 26 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: in and learn about his history and law enforcement. Meet 27 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: Officer Jared Kramer. 28 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, So actually started in conservation right out of college. 29 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 2: Two thousand and five. I went to work for the 30 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 2: Missouri Department of Conservation, and it's actually just an hourly 31 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 2: temporary job doing some stream surveying, backpack shocking streams and 32 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 2: doing a little study there in northern Missouri. And that 33 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 2: turned into me staying and getting on as an hourly 34 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 2: temporary employee with the wildlife guys. Worked all winter with them, 35 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: and then I got a full time job with them 36 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 2: on a conservation area as a wildlife technician. And all 37 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 2: the while I'm trying to get on as an Oklahoma 38 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: game warden, and I got that in two thousand and seven, 39 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 2: and this Adair County was my first assignment and I've 40 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 2: been here ever since. 41 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,399 Speaker 1: M Why do you want to get into wild life law. 42 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 2: You know, I don't really have a memory of the why. 43 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,839 Speaker 2: It just seems like that was always it. I don't 44 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 2: I don't recall like deciding one day that's what I 45 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 2: want to do. But you know, since I was probably 46 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 2: in junior high, I knew that, you know, that's something 47 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 2: I probably wanted to do. My brother is actually a 48 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 2: game warden in Oklahoma, and he hired on five years 49 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: before I did, And that's that basically solidified that that's 50 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 2: what I wanted to do. Not only because I looked 51 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 2: up to my brother and you know, wanted to work 52 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 2: with him and enjoyed, you know that, but I got 53 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 2: an inside scoop on the job, you know, and so 54 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 2: I really got to learn all ins and outs of 55 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 2: actually being an Oklahoma game warden because he was doing it. 56 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 2: And so then it's like, yeah, that's what I want 57 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 2: to do. 58 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: Officer Kramer was involved in a life changing altercation in 59 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen. He knows what I'm here to talk to 60 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: him about. He's often been asked to share the story 61 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: with other wildlife officers and trainings and with new cadets. 62 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: His story shows a very extreme situation and one that 63 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: you wouldn't think a wildlife officer would find himself in. 64 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 2: So it's twenty fifteen in April's Sunday morning, and I'm 65 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 2: going I'm going to go to work for a little 66 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 2: bit mid morning, and my plan was was to go 67 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 2: make a circle, probably check some fishing licenses. I actually 68 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 2: had a place on a wildlife management area where some 69 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 2: people have been illegally driving four wheelers or pick ups 70 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 2: off road, and I was going to go check on that. 71 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 2: And I was hoping to be home early in the afternoon, 72 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 2: going to have a short Sunday as what I had planned. 73 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 2: So this spot that I'm going to go check on 74 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 2: the wildlife management area's not far from my house, so 75 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 2: I hadn't been gone long. And I'm over there and 76 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 2: I hear my partner on the county radio to the dispatcher. 77 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: He's calling in a couple of individuals that are to 78 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 2: run their status of their driver's licenses and to check 79 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 2: them if they have any outstanding warrants. And so I 80 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: hear this, and he I believe, he tells the dispatcher 81 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 2: where he's at, and it was a place called Sanders 82 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 2: Flat and I'm just right down the road from there. Well, 83 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 2: within a minute they come back and say they've got 84 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 2: two of these individuals have outstanding warrants out of Arkansas, 85 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 2: and one of them's fell any warrant. So I know 86 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 2: this guy's going to go to jail. So I start 87 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 2: heading that way, and I raised. 88 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 3: Is a guy. 89 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 1: Forgive me for interrupted, this is a guy that he 90 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: has got here checking. 91 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 2: Out saw back up. So there was a little pond, 92 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: little farm pond that it's on private property, but it's 93 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 2: commonly being used by the public for fishing. Pretty small pond, 94 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 2: and so he just went there to check see if 95 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 2: anybody's there fishing that morning, and these people are there, 96 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: so he's checked their fishing licenses, now having Oklahoma fishing licenses. 97 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 2: So this contact progresses into him checking them for the warrants. 98 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 2: So the county comes back and tells him, yes, this 99 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 2: this one individual's got the felony warrant. So I immediately know, okay, 100 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 2: I'm going to his location, back him up, helping whatever. 101 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 2: So I radio to him and tell him, hey, I'm 102 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 2: just down the road. I'll be there in a minute. 103 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 2: So I'll pull up there. He's parked kind of up 104 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 2: on this hill above the pawn The ponds one hundred 105 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 2: and fifty yards away or so from where he's parked, 106 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 2: and he's got this woman at his truck, and I 107 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 2: already know that she has warrants as well, and he's 108 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 2: there with her. So I pull up and I immediately 109 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 2: am looking down at this pond these other two guys, 110 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: knowing one of those guys has this warrant and he's 111 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 2: with this girl. So I'm just my thought process is 112 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 2: I got to go down here to this guy and 113 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 2: take care of this, whether that's hook him up right 114 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 2: now or whatever. I'm gonna get over there. So I 115 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 2: confirm with that it's, you know, this one particular guy, 116 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 2: whatever he was wearing. But I already knew that because 117 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,239 Speaker 2: when I pulled up, even from one hundred and fifty yards, 118 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 2: I could see the look on his face in his 119 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 2: body language that he was the guy. He knew when 120 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 2: he's seen me pull up, everything about him changed, and 121 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:08,679 Speaker 2: I knew that's that's the guys. 122 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 3: So what did what did you see? What did he do? 123 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 2: I just just could see it. I don't know, I 124 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 2: couldn't describe it, but it was it was written all 125 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 2: over him in his body language that I could tell 126 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 2: he was the guy that was going to have this warrant. 127 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 2: Most likely it was probably him looking at me directly 128 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 2: and watched me pull up there, and I, you know, 129 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 2: so I pull off and have to drive around down 130 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 2: the county road and come back around the other side 131 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 2: to get to where these these guys are parked on 132 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 2: the other side of this pond. I was looking across 133 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 2: the pond from him. They've got a truck parked down 134 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 2: there by the pond. And I get out. This other 135 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 2: guy is a middle aged man. I recognized him from 136 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 2: another contact, and this to be a little side story 137 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 2: that can go into this. So this guy, I took 138 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 2: him to jail a year or two prior. He had 139 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 2: an outstanding warrant. And I'm taking this gentleman to jail 140 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 2: or we're making the drive and he's telling me that 141 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 2: this is a big mistake, which I've heard, you know, 142 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,839 Speaker 2: it's always well, I paid it, but you know they 143 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 2: lost the whatever. You know. Well, he's telling me that 144 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 2: he's a victim of identity theft and that somebody stole 145 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:43,239 Speaker 2: his identity and that person got arrested using his identity 146 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 2: and then they bailed out of jail. Didn't never come 147 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 2: back after they posted bond never showed back up to court. 148 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 2: So now he's on the hook because it was his identity. 149 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 2: Of course, I'm you know what I'm thinking, Okay, Well, 150 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 2: he keeps telling me about it, and I start to 151 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 2: believe in you know, I'm thinking, you know, this sounds legitimate. 152 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 2: He's pretty adamant about it. And I told him, I said, well, 153 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 2: I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll look into it, 154 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,839 Speaker 2: so take him to jail, book him in which I 155 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 2: explained to him. He knew, like he it's not like 156 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 2: I can't take you to jail now, but we'll look 157 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 2: into it. So sure enough, the following week, because that 158 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: was the weekend, I followed up and I ended up 159 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 2: finding these, you know, the photos from the booking of 160 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 2: this guy. It's not him, and so he's telling. 161 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 3: Me the truth. 162 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 2: And so I wrote up a deal and gave it 163 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 2: to the district attorneys and you know, told him what 164 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 2: i'd found, what i'd discovered, and got this guy off 165 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 2: and got his charges dropped and all that deal because 166 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 2: he truly was a victim of identity theft. Anyway, So 167 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: now I'm on I'm at the pond, and there he 168 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: is and he's kind of excited to see me, you know, 169 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 2: he you know. 170 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: He knows you've done yeah, he or he. 171 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 2: Knows that this deal all worked out and and he 172 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 2: got off those charges because of that deal, and he 173 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 2: knew that I had took care of it, yeah, or 174 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,199 Speaker 2: figured it out and got it took care of So anyway, 175 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 2: he shows me his fishing license because Cody hadn't checked 176 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 2: him yet. I guess maybe he was at a different 177 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 2: part of the pond or something whatever. So he shows 178 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 2: me his fishing license. And this other guy's standing at 179 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 2: the pickup truck and he's standing there at the bed 180 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 2: with his hands his arms rested up on the bedrail, 181 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: and I have he's cross, you know, looking across the 182 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: bed of the pickup front from me. So I have 183 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,599 Speaker 2: to look walk around to the back of him, and 184 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 2: I do. And I decided that I'm just going to 185 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 2: handcuff this guy, you know, and get him into custody. 186 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 2: And so I told him and said, hey, you know, 187 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 2: whatever I said. I don't remember if I told him 188 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 2: you've got warrants for your rest or whatever, but I 189 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 2: instructed him to put his hands behind his back and 190 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 2: go through that motion. And as he's doing that, I'm 191 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 2: reaching for my handcuffs at the same time, and he 192 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: puts his hands behind his back, and then he bolts 193 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 2: and he runs and he takes off to the right. 194 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 2: The pawn's right behind us, twenty yards or so, the 195 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 2: edge of it, and so he bolts to the right 196 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 2: and just takes off sprinting, and I presume and you know, 197 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 2: probably in twenty yards, I've tackled Dean, and so now 198 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: the fight's on where he's not complying. You know, I've 199 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 2: tackled him, but he's not going to lay there and 200 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 2: let me cuffing. You know, he's scrambling, trying to get up. 201 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 2: And he's quite a bit bigger than me. He's probably 202 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 2: got forty pounds on me, and you know, taller, a 203 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 2: little bit taller than me too. He's pretty stout guy. 204 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 2: And so it's all I can handle, not handling him. 205 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 2: Can't keep him on the ground. He gets up, well, 206 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 2: instead of disengaging and trying to run again, now he's 207 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 2: attacking me, and so he's trying to wrestle me to 208 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 2: the ground. And so now I've went into defense and 209 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: trying to keep my feet and so this this wrestling 210 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: match of him trying to drag me to the grounds 211 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 2: going on, and I'm merely just trying to stay on 212 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 2: my feet at this point. And you know, in my mind, 213 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 2: I'm thinking, Okay, I got to keep my feet, but 214 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 2: I got to get back control of this guy because 215 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 2: right now he's just I'm just defending and I've got 216 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 2: to get back on offense and get him under control. 217 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 2: And this is going on, and I mean it's it's 218 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 2: mere seconds, but it really felt like it's minutes of 219 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 2: fighting going on. And you know, he's got me by 220 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 2: the collar, trying to drag me down, trying to sling 221 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 2: me to the ground, whatever he can do. But I'm 222 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 2: maintaining throwing punching. Now he hasn't thrown any punches. He's 223 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 2: just grappling you, just trying to get me, trying to 224 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 2: drag me physically, drag me down, is what he's trying 225 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 2: to do. And I'm maintaining my feet and keeping that 226 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 2: from happening. But I'm thinking in my head, where's this 227 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 2: other guy at? And I'd start thinking, I gotta check 228 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 2: this other guy because I may be fixing to get 229 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 2: smoked in the back of the head or something. And 230 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 2: I managed to get to a point to where I 231 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 2: could get a look, and I see the guy standing 232 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 2: where he was standing when I left him, and he's 233 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 2: just standing there looking, you know, not doing anything, which 234 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 2: at the time for me, I thought, that's fine, that's great, 235 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 2: just stand there. You know, he's not not trying to 236 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 2: help me, but he's not doing anything to try to 237 00:14:53,360 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 2: hurt me either. This wrestling continues, and eventually this guy 238 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 2: just lunges and just in a perfect form, tackle shoulder 239 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 2: in my in my gut and wraps me up and 240 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 2: we just launch into the pond and I'm on my 241 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 2: back and so he's you know, I'm under the water 242 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 2: now and on my back and he's on top of me, 243 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 2: and he he's you know, in full mount, you know, 244 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 2: he's I assume, of course I can't see, but I 245 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 2: assume his knees are laid over me right of like 246 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 2: where my gun belt would be in my gun in 247 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 2: my side arm, because I can't get to it. I'm trying, 248 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 2: you know, and I can't. Well, he's got me. Of course. 249 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 2: My first instinct was to get up, but I can't 250 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 2: get up because he's on me. But he also grabs 251 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 2: a hold of me like by the collar or the 252 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 2: shirt my chest, and he pushes me down and he 253 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 2: actually started shaking me under the water like he was 254 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 2: trying to, you know, drown me, like you would see 255 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 2: somebody on TV shaking somebody under the water. And he's 256 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: doing that and I'm laying there and in my mind, 257 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 2: I'm it's slow. I mean, everything went real slow. And 258 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 2: I was sitting there thinking, Okay, I know where I'm at, 259 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 2: and I know what I know what I got to do, 260 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 2: and I don't have any recollection of how but my 261 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 2: next my next thought is, or my next memory is 262 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 2: he's off of me, and I'm standing up, and I'm 263 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 2: telling myself, get up and get your gun, Get up 264 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 2: and get your gun. Get up and get your gun. 265 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: And so I come up out of the water and 266 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 2: I'm getting my gun and he had bolted, well, I 267 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 2: say bolted. He was off to my left, and uh 268 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 2: I had I think I had hollered at him. But 269 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 2: he's coming at me like he was over here on 270 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 2: my left as what I was, what I remember, And 271 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 2: he's coming at me, and I believe I had hollered stop, 272 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 2: you know, but he's coming through the water. We're still 273 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 2: in he's still in the water. I'm still in the water, 274 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 2: but the water is like knee deep, and he's coming 275 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 2: at me, and it's like somebody trying to run or 276 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 2: hurry through the water. He's really side to side and 277 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 2: working at trying to get to me quick. And I have, 278 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 2: you know, drawn my gun, and I've got the gun 279 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: cleared the holster about the time he's right at me, 280 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 2: and I shoot him twice, and in my mind I 281 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 2: had well, I'll just say I shot him twice. And 282 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 2: he he turns to his right and kind of puts 283 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 2: his his hands up and says, I give up as 284 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 2: he falls into the water, face down, And so I 285 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 2: command him, put your hands behind your back, you know, 286 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 2: and he does. He hears me, and he complies, puts 287 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 2: his hands behind his back. I holster my gun and 288 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 2: I cuff him, and I roll him over on his 289 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 2: back and I drag him out of the water onto 290 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 2: the bank, and that, you know, from there, I was 291 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 2: trying to administer a first aid. I had stood up, 292 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: actually back up, I had stood up, and I look 293 00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 2: up and my partner, he's driving the truck. I see 294 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 2: him pull up. He is just now pulled up to 295 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 2: the scene. This whole time, he has no idea that 296 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,959 Speaker 2: this is going on, because about the time that I 297 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 2: got over there, he got that gal loaded up in 298 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 2: the truck and they started driving over there, and all 299 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 2: that took place. And I think they had the time 300 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 2: frame from radio traffic that it was like a minute 301 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: had took place from him getting in his truck and 302 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 2: driving over there and discovering what had just took place. 303 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 2: And so I stand up from this pond and see him, 304 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 2: and he gets out, and I holler at him to 305 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: throw me as first aid kit because we all have 306 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 2: a you know, a kit in our truck, and he does. 307 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 2: And anyway, I try to give this guy some some 308 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 2: aid to his gunshot wounds. I try to find them, 309 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 2: but I can't find them. Took a shirt put pulled 310 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 2: his shirt up and was trying to find these these wounds. 311 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 2: I knew I should I shot him twice, but I 312 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 2: can't find these gunshot wounds. And and I remember thinking, 313 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 2: what in the heck, because in my mind I knew 314 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 2: exactly where they were at when I pressed the trigger, 315 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 2: they weren't there. And anyway, he he didn't make it, unfortunately, 316 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 2: and we we radioed for help and you know, Cody 317 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 2: was able to secure the other guy that was there, 318 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 2: and we ended up having to you know, give directions 319 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 2: to the county where we were at and how how 320 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 2: to get there, you know, and they they showed up 321 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 2: and and took over the scene and all that. So 322 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 2: you know, from there, you've got, uh, this one guy 323 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 2: that sat there and watched the whole thing, and and 324 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 2: I remember thinking, you know, that guy, he's going to 325 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 2: have to tell this story. And I remember wondering what 326 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 2: story was he going to tell? 327 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: You know, And but this is the guy that you've helped, 328 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 1: but this is also his obviously a buddy, a friend 329 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: of his or whatever. 330 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 4: You know. 331 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 2: Fast forward to me having to sit down with investigators 332 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 2: and and or the investigator for the Ocloma State Guirreau 333 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 2: of Investigation and and tell my story. 334 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 3: You know, can I can? I ask you? 335 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: I don't want to disrupt your flow, but what's what's 336 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: going through your mind when you know this guy is 337 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: not going to live? 338 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 2: Are you? 339 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: I mean like kind of just thinking what you know 340 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: you're now up against in terms of. 341 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this this time, you know, this was twenty fifteen, 342 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 2: there was a lot going on with law enforcement there 343 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 2: was riots, and and you know, there had been some 344 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 2: incidents that were you know, in the news that from 345 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 2: people that were unarmed that got shot by law enforcement officers, 346 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 2: and that those sort of things were going on, and 347 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 2: that actually crossed my mind, you know, not during the event, 348 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 2: but right after it happened. I'm now thinking, you know, 349 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 2: here we are with all this stuff going on, and 350 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 2: law enforcement's getting you know, hammered in the media and 351 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 2: getting portrayed to be the bad guys constantly, and here 352 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 2: this guy is. He ain't armed, you know, And I 353 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 2: thought about that while I was standing there. And this 354 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 2: guy's not made it, you know, he's passed away. 355 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 1: Less than a year earlier, on August ninth, twenty fourteen, 356 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: eighteen year old unarmed Michael Brown was killed by police 357 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: in Ferguson, Missouri, which created a national uproar in riots 358 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: in the streets. When officers in twenty fifteen, this very 359 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: year that all this took place with Officer Kramer, these 360 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: officers in Ferguson were found justified in the use of 361 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: deadly force. They were essentially acquitted. It's hard to forget 362 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: the tension in the air since that time, as law 363 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:34,199 Speaker 1: enforcement has been under intense scrutiny and has had to 364 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: continue to do their job upholding the law. These were 365 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: incredibly intense times and Officer Kramer has found himself right 366 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: in the middle of it. What a nightmare. And secondly, 367 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: you remember the woman that his partner had arrested that 368 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: was connected with this crew. Well, his partner and this 369 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 1: woman were completely out of view of the fight. They 370 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 1: never saw a thing. But later in court she claimed 371 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 1: that she had witnessed the fight and told a completely 372 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: different story than Officer Kramer and this other guy that 373 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: was standing right there beside him. 374 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 2: My lawyer and I show up to give a you know, 375 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 2: the formal statement to the investigators. They've already interviewed these 376 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 2: other witnesses and whatever, and they're waiting to do mine. 377 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 2: And we sat down and do it. And so I 378 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 2: tell that story just like I told it to you, 379 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 2: and probably close to word for word. And after it 380 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:44,479 Speaker 2: was done, the investigator asked me if I wanted to 381 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 2: see what the eyewitnesses story was. What he said, okay, 382 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: So they handed me the statement and I read it, 383 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 2: and it was almost word for word or what I said, 384 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 2: and the only the only thing that was there might 385 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 2: have been a couple of little things different because there 386 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 2: always will be, but it was, I mean, it was 387 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: the exact story. The main difference for me, and it 388 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 2: was a piece of the puzzle that I've never been 389 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 2: able to get back myself was he stated that I 390 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 2: kicked this guy off of me, and that the guy 391 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 2: landed on his butt in the water and then got up. 392 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 2: But I have no recollection if that's what really happened 393 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 2: or not. I just know that the guy's off of me, 394 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 2: you know, and I got to get up. 395 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: Well. Wouldn't that make sense though, I mean, because because 396 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 1: it's it's like you're under water and then all of 397 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: a sudden he's off of you. If he was trying 398 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 1: to leave you, feels like he would have kept going. 399 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, but he didn't. He re engaged again for the 400 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 2: second time, you know, and decided he wanted to, I guess, 401 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 2: play this one one more time. But in my mind 402 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:58,479 Speaker 2: I had to, you know, I had to make that 403 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 2: decision of I'm not going to fight this guy in 404 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 2: the water again. You know, that's not happening when I'm 405 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 2: not going back down there. 406 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 1: I'm not going back down there. I think that phrase 407 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: paints a clear picture of the direness of the situation 408 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: for Officer Kramer. Sometimes you just wonder what in the 409 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 1: world someone is thinking. Who's fighting a law enforcement officer 410 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: who has the legal right to protect themselves with deadly force. 411 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: Do people know this? Are they just rolling the dice? 412 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: Are they crazy? Are they high? Do they care if 413 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: they live or die? It's hard to know, but it 414 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: happens every single day. This logic makes it easy to think, well, 415 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 1: this criminal got what he deserved and what he asked for. 416 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 1: But I can't help think of what a sad state 417 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: of life, what dire straits a person would have to 418 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: be in to act this way. I cannot understand it 419 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: or reconcile it. Fighting a law enforcement officer is like 420 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: fist fighting a black mamba. You're probably going to get struck. 421 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: But what's gonna now happen for Officer Kramer. 422 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and another kid bit there about the that witness. 423 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:20,679 Speaker 2: He did say at some point he told the truth 424 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 2: because he believed I was a good guy, because I 425 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 2: had helped him out and made that right for him, 426 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 2: and he wasn't gonna lie. 427 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: Wow, Yeah, that's man, that's when when you told that 428 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: part of the story. I was like God was looking 429 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: out for you mean, he really was, because that could 430 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: have gone completely the other direction, you know, I mean, 431 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: just to have a witness there that you had just 432 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 1: randomly done a good thing for. 433 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 3: I mean, what are the chances of that? 434 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 4: Yeah? 435 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, because who knows how it would have turned out 436 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 2: if that guy wasn't present that day and now it's 437 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 2: you know, you got my story and and get this 438 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 2: other so called witness and her story. It would have 439 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 2: been a completely different deal. I mean it would have. 440 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, if that guy had corroborated the same false story 441 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: the woman told, this story could have turned out completely different. 442 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: But what happens now the thing is just starting for 443 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: Officer Kramer. Actually this was just the start of years 444 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 1: of lack of resolution. 445 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 2: Wow. But that's that's the short, not really the short, 446 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 2: but that's the gist of what happened there on the 447 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 2: on the scene. And you know, from there there was 448 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 2: of course the criminal side of it, which you know, 449 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 2: every officer that is involved in such is going to 450 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 2: be there's going to be a criminal investigation. And of 451 00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 2: course that that was determined to justify, you know, I 452 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 2: was justified in my actions, So there was no criminal 453 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 2: ramifications or whatever coming there. But that following year, I 454 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 2: think it was about right out a year after the incident, 455 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 2: the family of the suspect they filed the federal lawsuit. 456 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 2: So that was basically accusing me of violating Fourth Amendment right, 457 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 2: you know, unlawful search and seizure, taking this guy's life. 458 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 2: And that played out for years, several years really yeah, 459 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 2: just a lot of it was I think just the 460 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 2: slow process of the federal court system. But the short 461 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 2: version of that was it was it was deemed by 462 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 2: the judge, federal judge that it would go to a 463 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 2: trial and that I was being represented by the okahom 464 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 2: Attorney General's office, and they filed an appeal with the 465 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 2: tenth Circuit District Court out of Denver, and they decided 466 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 2: otherwise that it would be dismissed. So that was the 467 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 2: end of that. 468 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: But when all that was going on was that I 469 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: was that stressful. 470 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's that's the worst part, you know, I mean, 471 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 2: I say it was the worst part. It was because 472 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 2: of the duration how long that took. 473 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: You know, can you walk me through your training in 474 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: a situation like that, Like, I know, any level of 475 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: law enforcement training these days I mean there is a 476 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: prescribed action basically for any category of situation like you're 477 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: I know, there's there's probably there's gray areas that they're 478 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: they're just naturally it's going to be. But like there's 479 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: certain just laws that if this happens, I do this, 480 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: and I mean that's just part of your job. 481 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the you know, we're being trained and have 482 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 2: to abide by what we call the use of force 483 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 2: continuum laws governing the use of deadly force, which you 484 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 2: know basically say that you know, if somebody is trying 485 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 2: to do me physical harm, trying to kill me, or 486 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 2: serious bodily injury, that elevates to the justification of the 487 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 2: use of deadly force to prevent that from happening. You know, 488 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be on me, It can be 489 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 2: on any citizen that they're you know that I am 490 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 2: justified to use that level of force to prevent somebody 491 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 2: from harming you in that manner, taking your life, or 492 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 2: doing serious bodily injury. So that's the first and foremost 493 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 2: is you know, was the person capable of inflicting that injury, 494 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 2: did they have the intent to do it, and did 495 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 2: they have the opportunity to complete it, and all three 496 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 2: of those things have to be present in order for 497 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 2: it to be justified for me to make that decision 498 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 2: to use that deadly force. You know, they could have 499 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 2: the intent and the means to do it, but it 500 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 2: may not have the opportunity to actually do it, and 501 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 2: so it doesn't it won't work. I would be unjustified, 502 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 2: you know. And in this case, you know, the guy 503 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 2: his means was his physical ability to hold me under 504 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 2: the water and you know, subdue me and make that attempt. 505 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 2: And it's clear to me that he had that ability there. 506 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 2: He obviously showed the intent and the opportunity was there 507 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 2: and he seized it. So he met all that criteria, 508 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 2: which is in my mind just my training. Not thinking 509 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 2: about that. I'm not checking those boxes. They're just that's 510 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 2: just trained in me. But I will say that at 511 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 2: the those split seconds of time where I'm seeing what's 512 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 2: happening and I'm I've got my gun drawn, there was 513 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 2: a thought process of is is this good? You know, 514 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 2: I'm asking my I'm running that down. Is this good? Right? 515 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 2: And that was the only question I asked myself, and I. 516 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 3: Had to make that decision. 517 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: I guess the water is what if you're uncoverable with 518 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: this question, we don't have to put this on there. 519 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 3: You probably wouldn't have shot him if it hadn't been 520 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 3: for the. 521 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 2: Water, though, right, that was his means. 522 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: I mean, because like if you were just wrestling on 523 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: the ground with a guy that was just trying to 524 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: get you down. 525 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, he never would have. He would have had to 526 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 2: have done something something. 527 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: Being reached for your gun or if he had had 528 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: a weapon. 529 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 2: Right, that's totally different. The water is what the means were. 530 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 2: That's the means of him having the ability to take 531 00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 2: my life. Was the water that was his weapon. Yeah, 532 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 2: so that's that's exactly right. If it wasn't for that, 533 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: it'd have been just to fight on the ground, you know, 534 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 2: and I'd have been trying to do it. 535 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 3: You wouldn't have been justified, right and deadly force. 536 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 2: Just if he would have had to have done something else. 537 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 2: You know, he'd had to have been picking up a 538 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 2: rock and trying to beat me in the head with it, 539 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 2: or you know, a stick or something. He would have 540 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 2: had to have some other kind of weapon to to 541 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 2: reach that threshold. 542 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that makes total sense. 543 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 2: But we're still standing in the water. You know, and 544 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 2: he's re engaging to attack me again while we're still 545 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 2: in the water, and so that that's what justified that. 546 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 3: Godly, that's wild man. 547 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: You know, probably never in a thousand lifetimes of a 548 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: wildlife officer did something. 549 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:46,320 Speaker 3: Like that happen. 550 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 2: Is that? 551 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:48,800 Speaker 3: Would you say? That's probably accurate? 552 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know of another, you know, incident like that. Yeah. 553 00:34:55,440 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: Similar to justify the use of lethal force, the perpetrator 554 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: has to have three things, the intent, the means, and 555 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 1: the opportunity. And in this case, the most unusual and 556 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,879 Speaker 1: unprecedented thing was the means to kill being water. The 557 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: water was equivalent to a gun or a knife, or 558 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: a rock or a club. And if you've ever almost drowned, 559 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 1: I think you'll understand that. It goes without saying that 560 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: any time a human life is taken, it's extremely serious. 561 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: And just because someone is a convicted felon on the run, 562 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 1: it doesn't lessen their value as a human and a 563 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,800 Speaker 1: fellow partaker of the breath of life. It is wild 564 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: that this took place less than seventy miles away from 565 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: where Bucky Garrison drowned in nineteen seventy one. Here's Officer 566 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 1: Kramer with a very interesting detail about the psychology of 567 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,080 Speaker 1: these types of situations. 568 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 2: And I will backtrack to say to fill in a 569 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 2: spot that I left open there about his gunshot wounds. 570 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 2: And I don't remember the terminology of what it is, 571 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 2: but the I guess it's pretty common that in that situation, 572 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 2: In those situations, that your brain is not processing in 573 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:32,280 Speaker 2: real time, and so my brain is seeing or telling 574 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 2: me what I think were what I know, and that 575 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 2: this guy was squared up to me, and because I 576 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,919 Speaker 2: believed that I knew where I had hit him, but 577 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 2: the reality was was he had turned to his let 578 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 2: to his right when I had shot, but I didn't 579 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 2: see that. My brain didn't process that it was behind. 580 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 2: So I'm pressing the trigger, but my brain is still 581 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 2: behind on where he's located. And I guess that's pretty 582 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 2: common for somebody to get shot in the back, but 583 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 2: that's not what the officer intended because in their mind 584 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 2: they were still facing them, but they had turned, and this. 585 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 3: Was exactly what happened. 586 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,759 Speaker 2: He's actually turned before those shots went off, and so 587 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 2: he was hit in the side with the ribs and 588 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 2: I'm looking for him on the front of his torso 589 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 2: and can't see him because in my brain I thought 590 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 2: that I know exactly where they're at, but they weren't. 591 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 2: They were around the side because he had turned to 592 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 2: move away, tried to get away from me, you know, 593 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 2: when he realized what was fixing to happen, you know. 594 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 2: And I didn't never knew that until I was told, 595 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 2: you know, this is where he was hit. And that 596 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 2: was a complete shock to me because I would have 597 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 2: bet the farm and I knew exactly where they went. 598 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,840 Speaker 1: The razor edge of time is faster than the human 599 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: brain can compute such a precarious thing. To be a 600 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: law enforcement officer, Why couldn't this guy have just run 601 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 1: away when Officer Kramer's kicked him off? 602 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:09,280 Speaker 2: He didn't. 603 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: He came right back. I've got another question, did that 604 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 1: affect your career? I mean, did it make you Did 605 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 1: you think, man, I maybe ought to get out of 606 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: this business or or did it. 607 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,479 Speaker 2: You know, I don't, I don't think i've I didn't 608 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 2: really ever think about that about getting out, you know. 609 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 2: But it's definitely changed. I mean, I'll never be the 610 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:41,720 Speaker 2: same person. And uh, it's it's uh, it has created 611 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 2: uh an opportunity for the good where we have some 612 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 2: training now because up to up to that point, we 613 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 2: hadn't had in a incident game warding involved shooting incidents. 614 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 2: Sense I don't remember. I think it was in the 615 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 2: nineties retired officer now, but had gotten in it, had 616 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 2: shot a guy and the rumors of that, how that 617 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,959 Speaker 2: played out with the agency and everything, it wasn't good. 618 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 2: It just was kind of like a disaster for the 619 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:30,239 Speaker 2: officer involved. And now, you know, we know as law 620 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 2: enforcement agencies around the country, this is not uncommon to 621 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 2: have these incidents, so they know more about mental health 622 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 2: and how things should play out, what you do and 623 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 2: how you do it. And my agency didn't have any experience. 624 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:55,400 Speaker 2: There wasn't anybody working at our administrative level that was 625 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 2: working at the time when the last one happened, So 626 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 2: there wasn't any new scenario. Yeah, it was completely new. 627 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, and. 628 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:10,719 Speaker 2: Thankfully those that were in that those positions, you know, 629 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 2: they handled it correctly. And the fact that they didn't 630 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 2: do anything if they were unsure about what they were doing, 631 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 2: and that's just and I'm saying that in regards to 632 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 2: to towards me, But after this took place, I decided, 633 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 2: you know, hey, our agency needs to be prepared how 634 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 2: do we handle this? And so now we have some 635 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 2: some good training on how do you respond, Like if 636 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 2: you're an officer that's out working and you get the 637 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 2: call that there's been an officer involved shooting, how how 638 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 2: do you respond to that? What do you do? What 639 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 2: do you need to do when you get there, you know, 640 00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:02,960 Speaker 2: And and then the other side of the for the agency, 641 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,279 Speaker 2: like the supervisors of that officer, the things that they 642 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 2: should be doing to to help that officer you know, 643 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 2: through this, you know, because there there can be a 644 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 2: lot of struggles, you know, mentally the mental health thing 645 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 2: can go south, you know, and it can be a 646 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,279 Speaker 2: bad It can turn out to be a really bad deal. 647 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 2: And and that's for me, that was an that was 648 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:32,760 Speaker 2: something I experienced. Was nothing real negative. Nobody did anything 649 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 2: to me that you know, caused some negative impact. But 650 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 2: your brains is it's a weird deal. I mean, it 651 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 2: does some crazy stuff. And I remember immediately after, you know, 652 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 2: the next day and the next next two couple of days, 653 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 2: there's everybody's trying to call me, you know, and people 654 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,880 Speaker 2: are wanting to know what happened, and you know, then 655 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,279 Speaker 2: a lot of them are just wanting to you know, hey, 656 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 2: I'm glad you're all right, you know, and they got 657 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,839 Speaker 2: that out of the way. Well I figured out that 658 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 2: that's that's all we do, is we we get that 659 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:09,239 Speaker 2: out of the way and we. 660 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:10,320 Speaker 3: Go on about our lives. 661 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 2: So what happens is it goes from all these all 662 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 2: this attention and people, you know, saying these good things, 663 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,120 Speaker 2: and then it's crickets and you don't hear nothing, and 664 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,239 Speaker 2: that starts screwing you know, was kind of screwing with me, like, 665 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 2: you know, what's going on? How come nobody's called you know? 666 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,240 Speaker 2: You know, is this bad? You know, because there's there's 667 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 2: an investigation going on. Yeah, yeah, you know, am I 668 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 2: being blacklisted or something? And you don't. It's like so 669 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 2: that those kind of things that we're aware of now 670 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 2: that that's going to happen, so we kind of know 671 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 2: how to handle it, how to prevent it from turning 672 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,360 Speaker 2: into something that it shouldn't or whatever. 673 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:52,240 Speaker 3: That's interesting. 674 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: That's probably a similar thing with any kind of traumatic event, 675 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 1: is that you you get a lot of people who 676 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,799 Speaker 1: care about you contacting you, and then yeah, it kind of. 677 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,799 Speaker 3: After some period of time, Yeah, it's like nothing. 678 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you you you you know. 679 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 3: That's interesting. I wouldn't have thought of that. 680 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:16,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, and your brain, you know, I guess maybe vulnerable 681 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,319 Speaker 2: would be a good term you get in you're just 682 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:23,719 Speaker 2: it's like it's very susceptible to manipulation, and you know, 683 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:28,920 Speaker 2: you're you don't you know, you don't know what's what's 684 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 2: right and what's you know, like, is this normal that 685 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 2: they're not calling me? I mean you can't. You're not 686 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 2: processing that, you're not understanding' not grasping. Well, okay, well 687 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,239 Speaker 2: this is just everybody has said what they wanted to 688 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 2: say and that's it. 689 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:54,719 Speaker 1: Now you start thinking the worst. So what can what 690 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 1: could we learn from all this? Like when you tell 691 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: the story, I know, to law enforcement officers there's a 692 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: lot in terms of just like training and response and stuff. 693 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,319 Speaker 1: What do you what value is there too to us 694 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: to hear the story? 695 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 2: You know, it's as a as a game warden. You know, 696 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:23,719 Speaker 2: it's solidifies that you know, we're we're law enforcement officers 697 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 2: out there dealing with the same people that may want 698 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,280 Speaker 2: to do us harm, just like any other law enforcement 699 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,439 Speaker 2: you know, I think a lot of times. 700 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:34,840 Speaker 3: We get. 701 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 2: You know, maybe downplayed on what you know, we're just 702 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,400 Speaker 2: a wildlife cop, you know, or not a real cop 703 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,520 Speaker 2: you you know whatever, But you know that's yeah, this 704 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 2: deal started out it's a wildlife related thing. But the whole, 705 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 2: the whole reason that happened was because this guy was 706 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,200 Speaker 2: a criminal that was wanted, you know, and we're going 707 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,240 Speaker 2: to take him to jail. We're going to make him 708 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 2: you know, see the judge. So ah, I guess that 709 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 2: would be one thing that this you know, comes should 710 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 2: come of this situation as people realize, yeah, we're out 711 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:12,360 Speaker 2: there dealing with bad guys. 712 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,640 Speaker 1: You know. I just think about how you see these 713 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:21,759 Speaker 1: videos now of people engaging with law enforcement and like 714 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,719 Speaker 1: in a fight or something, and it's just like, you 715 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,319 Speaker 1: gotta be crazy. I mean, people should know when you 716 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,719 Speaker 1: feel like everybody should know. And obviously people aren't in 717 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,759 Speaker 1: their rational mind when they like put their hands on 718 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: an officer. But it's like the rule of law that 719 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,040 Speaker 1: we have in this country because we all can walk 720 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 1: around the streets and feel safe in most places this 721 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 1: country is because we have law enforcement that has the 722 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 1: right to protect the public but also themselves. And you 723 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 1: lay your hands on a law enforcement officer, you might 724 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 1: be in big trouble. I mean that that blows my 725 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,560 Speaker 1: mind when I see, you know, of people that start 726 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:02,160 Speaker 1: thinking straight. 727 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,799 Speaker 2: Well, like in this incident, this guy, he come out, 728 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:11,040 Speaker 2: you know, in testimony from the witnesses that they had 729 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:15,239 Speaker 2: just got done doing math. Well you know, and I 730 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:17,840 Speaker 2: think that was part of why he was wanted, you know, 731 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,480 Speaker 2: probably with some drug. I don't remember exactly, but I 732 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 2: believe it was something to do with that. But he 733 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:28,200 Speaker 2: had already told this other this other guy, that he 734 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,279 Speaker 2: wasn't going back. He already had that conversation before I 735 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,279 Speaker 2: got over there. He made his mind up. It was 736 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 2: about not going back to jail. You know, he's going 737 00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,680 Speaker 2: to do whatever he needed to do to not go back. 738 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,000 Speaker 3: So he'd already made. 739 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:46,359 Speaker 2: That decision, yea, And that explains why he was, you know, 740 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,759 Speaker 2: re engaging. He realized that I wasn't going to let 741 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 2: him go, wasn't going to let him just run off, 742 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,880 Speaker 2: you know, So he knew I believe he knew that 743 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:57,319 Speaker 2: he needed to take care of me. 744 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,120 Speaker 1: In order to go away, to get away, I guess, 745 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,319 Speaker 1: you know, the ill saying you'd be surprised at what 746 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:14,240 Speaker 1: people do if they're really desperate. It is eye opening 747 00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:18,520 Speaker 1: to go behind the scenes with law enforcement officers, especially 748 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:24,080 Speaker 1: in the most stressful, difficult times of their career. I 749 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,040 Speaker 1: can't thank Officer Kramer enough, first of all for his 750 00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:31,839 Speaker 1: service and protecting our communities and our wildlife resources, but 751 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:37,120 Speaker 1: secondly his willingness to tell this story anytime human life 752 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:40,719 Speaker 1: has taken It's an incredibly serious situation, and I think 753 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:45,319 Speaker 1: that we can all learn a lot from this. I 754 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,680 Speaker 1: cannot thank you enough for listening to Bear Grease Brent's 755 00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:53,279 Speaker 1: This Country Life and Lakes Backwoods University. I hope that 756 00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:58,280 Speaker 1: everyone has a married Christmas and a wonderful New Year. 757 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 1: And while you're opening up those Christmas presents on December 758 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,279 Speaker 1: twenty fifth, remember keep the wild places wild, because that's 759 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:07,399 Speaker 1: where the bears live.