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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session four sixteen of the Black

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Speaker 1: Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after word

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Speaker 1: from our sponsors. When it comes to conversations about sexuality,

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Speaker 1: especially for black women in films, there's often a heavy

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Speaker 1: weight of stereotypes, silence, and shame. We've been conditioned to

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Speaker 1: think of our desires as something to hide or fix,

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Speaker 1: rather than explore and understand. But what if our pleasure,

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Speaker 1: boundaries and needs could be expressed with clarity, confidence, and care.

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Speaker 1: This week, we're exploring how BDSM and kink can be

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Speaker 1: powerful too for reconnecting with desire, agency, and emotional safety.

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Speaker 1: While these communities are often misunderstood, they emphasize consent, communication,

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Speaker 1: and trust, values that are essential in any healthy relationship.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to be joined again by doctor Lana Holmes,

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Speaker 1: a licensed clinical psychologist and somatic practitioner who's specializes in

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Speaker 1: working with BIPOC and LGBTQ plus clients around identity, sexuality,

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Speaker 1: and trauma. Our previous conversation in Session two twenty two,

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Speaker 1: how horror films help us process life was such an

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Speaker 1: eye opener for me. It gave me so many more

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Speaker 1: layers to think about when it comes to the horror

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Speaker 1: genre and how it can help us process trauma layers.

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Speaker 1: I just didn't know we're there. I'm so happy she's

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Speaker 1: back with us this week to explore another deeply layered

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Speaker 1: and often misunderstood topic, BDSM and kink. If something resonates

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Speaker 1: with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us

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Speaker 1: on social media using the hashtag tvg and Session, or

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Speaker 1: join us over in our Patreon community. To talk more

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Speaker 1: about the episode. You can join us at community dot

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Speaker 1: therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me again, doctor Holmes.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for

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Speaker 2: having me on again.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely so you joined us for session two twenty two,

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Speaker 1: which is one of I feel like I say this

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Speaker 1: all the time, my favorite episodes, but I feel like

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Speaker 1: I learned so much and it was like such an

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Speaker 1: interesting perspective on a conversation. So we talked about like

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Speaker 1: how you can use horror films to actually process trauma.

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Speaker 1: So catch us up all what's been going on since

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Speaker 1: we last chatted.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, let's see, still doing clinical practice. Also recently

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Speaker 2: transitioned into doing continuing education courses that our APA approved.

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Speaker 2: The inaugural course that actually dealt with the same topic

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Speaker 2: we're going to focus on today, has to do with

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Speaker 2: kink and crinical practice. In fact, the full title is

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Speaker 2: Kink and Clinical Practice one oh one. Just is then

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Speaker 2: opportunity to help clinicians become better acquainted with the BDSM

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Speaker 2: and kink populations and how to treat them, especially folks

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Speaker 2: who may have heard some things out there in media,

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Speaker 2: but they're like, I have no idea about the nuts

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Speaker 2: and bolts of what BSM and kink are, and I

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Speaker 2: want to be more competent in these areas well.

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Speaker 1: I feel like you have set us up for a

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Speaker 1: great conversation today, So let's get started by like a

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Speaker 1: one oh one, like, what are you talking about when

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Speaker 1: you refer to BDSM and kink? What are some definitions there?

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Speaker 2: So, the best ways I could describe kink is about

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Speaker 2: like a niche set of sexual practices that are seen

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Speaker 2: as being unconventional but are deeply rewarding and pleasurable for folks.

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Speaker 2: And then on the opposite side with like BDSM, it's

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Speaker 2: an acronym, so for those of us who remember dialectical

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Speaker 2: behavior therapy, you're gonna love this. The BDSM is an

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Speaker 2: acronym that stands for bondage and discipline, domination and submission,

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Speaker 2: and then sadism and masochism. And so these are sexual,

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Speaker 2: relational and emotional dynamics that have to do with power

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Speaker 2: exchange and like playing around with power in a way

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Speaker 2: that can be erotic but also a way that can

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Speaker 2: be deeply emotionally psychologic, even in some cases depending on preferences,

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Speaker 2: spiritually satisfying.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we are going to dig more into all

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Speaker 1: of those acronyms as you just shared, but i'd love

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Speaker 1: to hear from you, like what drew you to exploring

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Speaker 1: this professionally and why do you think it's important for

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Speaker 1: black women in films to kind of learn more about this?

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Speaker 2: Huh, that's a great question. Professionally, I think part of

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Speaker 2: the reason that I've felt drawn to this is like

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Speaker 2: it's a part of my overall ethos of being there

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Speaker 2: for people that are part of marginalized, depressed, and stigmatized community. Also,

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Speaker 2: I think if we're thinking more broadly of why any

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Speaker 2: clinician should care about this is sexuality is such an

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Speaker 2: integral part of people's overall health and well being, and

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Speaker 2: by and large, a lot of people can have conflicted

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Speaker 2: emotions but also a lot of shame about sex in general.

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Speaker 2: But then especially if you are part of a kind

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Speaker 2: of subcultural sexual community, then there can be even more

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Speaker 2: shame and misunderstanding. So we already know from research but

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Speaker 2: also anecdotal evidence that there are number of people within

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Speaker 2: BSM and KING communities and when they come into treatment

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Speaker 2: get misdiagnosed, get judged, get criticized, and so that not

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Speaker 2: only blocks folks from being able to access them as

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Speaker 2: a health care that they need, but also it can

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Speaker 2: lead to more harm, which ethically we are not supposed

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Speaker 2: to be doing as licensed with health professionals. So for me,

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to be able to provide a warm,

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Speaker 2: welcoming place where people could be And I mean usually

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Speaker 2: when people come into treatment from BSM and king communities,

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Speaker 2: the focus isn't necessarily always going to be on that,

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Speaker 2: but people just want to have the assurance that they

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Speaker 2: could talk about all the different parts of their life

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Speaker 2: and what's important and meaningful to them, and you're going

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Speaker 2: to know what they're talking about. They don't have to

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Speaker 2: educate you on it. But also you're going to be

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Speaker 2: understanding and inclusive and embracing about it rather than remissaying

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Speaker 2: or being disgusted. Yeah, but people want to be able

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Speaker 2: to say, like, I can talk about my depression and

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Speaker 2: how I like to get banked and you're not going

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Speaker 2: to bat nigh or I have to hide some part

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Speaker 2: of it from me. But also people sometimes can come

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Speaker 2: into treatment because they might be experiencing challenges or even

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Speaker 2: like coming into this aspect of their selves for the

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Speaker 2: first time, and they want somebody who's knowledgeable to help

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Speaker 2: them navigate and process like what it means to be

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Speaker 2: a part of the king can be as communities from

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Speaker 2: a psychological perspective, you know, so that's it, and then

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Speaker 2: when it comes to Black women in fems, it's like,

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Speaker 2: why is this important for us? And why should we

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Speaker 2: consider this?

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Speaker 1: Is?

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Speaker 2: I think for black women and fems, we are often

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Speaker 2: hamstrung in terms of our sexuality. So we've had to

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Speaker 2: deal with these racialized stereotypes of our sexuality as being

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Speaker 2: like hyper sexual, which can then lead to this reaction

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Speaker 2: is wanting to be as proper and respectable in our

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Speaker 2: sexuality as possible. So a lot of these reactions have

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Speaker 2: to do with like how do we defend our felves

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Speaker 2: rather than like what are our true desires? And I

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Speaker 2: think with BDSM and kink it offers an opportunity for

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Speaker 2: folks to be able to tap into like what do

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Speaker 2: you want and to be explicit about it and to

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Speaker 2: be intentional about it. But also BSM kink really emphasize clear,

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Speaker 2: assertive communication boundaries also consent in a way that I

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Speaker 2: think sometimes in vanilla or you know, basically anything that

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Speaker 2: outside of like king can BDSM doesn't. And so there

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Speaker 2: can be enhances level of safety and agency that comes

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Speaker 2: from exploring your sexuality within the context of BSM and kink.

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Speaker 1: So that to Holmes, you mentioned that one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons someone might go to therapy is to kind of

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Speaker 1: explore this area of their sexuality. I wonder if you

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Speaker 1: could talk about how someone might even know that they're

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Speaker 1: interested in BDSM ar key, we might let me know, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this might be something I might be more interested in.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting. Yeah, my head is just a wash with

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Speaker 2: all of these accounts that people said, like this is

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Speaker 2: how I got an ink laying or new So some

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Speaker 2: of the media examples that I've encountered, both like looking

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Speaker 2: at the research, working with people, being with people in

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Speaker 2: these communities is a lot of media, and it's not

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Speaker 2: necessarily like sextual or pornographic media. Even examples include people

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Speaker 2: where they're like, oh, there was a regular mainstream film

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Speaker 2: that featured a character that was wearing lever or lateech

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Speaker 2: or who was being restrained, and people were like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I found that very appealing in a way that was

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Speaker 2: different than just oh it's cool or it's like aesthetic

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Speaker 2: with pasing. But they're like, I'm feeling aroused by it,

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Speaker 2: or I feel like this kind of emotional connection to

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Speaker 2: it Also I've heard people where they're like, it's been books,

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Speaker 2: like not only books that are considered to be a

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Speaker 2: part of the canon of BSM and king history, but

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Speaker 2: also just books again where there are elements of power

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Speaker 2: dynamics at play, where people are being restrained, where there's

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Speaker 2: like these different kinds of really like physical power oriented

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Speaker 2: dynamics are happening where people realize it. Like, another example

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Speaker 2: that comes to mind is I've heard at least one

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Speaker 2: example of somebody's like I loved comic books and being

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Speaker 2: like Wonder Woman being tied up with her last of Truth,

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Speaker 2: Like that really was appealing to me and was like

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Speaker 2: a early kink awakening. And that's really apropos because the

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Speaker 2: creator is I'm remembering doctor Moulton, who was like also

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Speaker 2: a ment health professional, like created Wonder Woman as a dominatrix.

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Speaker 2: That was just an underlying intention like with that character.

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Speaker 2: So to me, when I heard the example, it's like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: that's very upper po that's that person just intuitively glommed

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Speaker 2: on to that.

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Speaker 1: So you've already mentioned spanking as like one type of play,

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Speaker 1: but there are so many different ways to play in

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Speaker 1: the bdsame kind of community. Can you talk about like

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Speaker 1: some of those differences and to talk more about like

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Speaker 1: the sense of playing with power, like what does that

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Speaker 1: look like in practice?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So when I think about kink, there can be

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Speaker 2: a number of things, like you said, outside of spanking

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Speaker 2: that people can do. There's things like bloshing, which is

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Speaker 2: a subset of the like wet and messy fetish where

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Speaker 2: folks may play with food. Bashing specifically talked about people

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Speaker 2: engaging in like sexual scenes and play with food being

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Speaker 2: involved with the broader wet and messy fetish, people may

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Speaker 2: use like really sticky or viscous things, whether it be

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Speaker 2: body face pain or gunge, which is basically like mixing

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Speaker 2: different things to have like a slimy texture and consistency

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Speaker 2: to put in their bodies or to engage in sexual

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Speaker 2: play with. So basically, you know, if I were to

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Speaker 2: explain it in a more comprehensive way of the differences

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Speaker 2: between like all those these different things, it would be

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Speaker 2: you know, kink being a matter of any kind of

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Speaker 2: like obscure or unconventional sexual behaviors and preferences, and a

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Speaker 2: subset of that would be fetishes where a person can

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Speaker 2: derive sexual arousal pleasure of stimulations from specific body parts

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Speaker 2: inanimate objects or situations. So typically the fetish that is

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Speaker 2: needed for arousal orgasm or pleasure to okur, whereas like kink,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't absolutely positively have to be there for that.

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Speaker 2: Some additional kink examples off the top of my head

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Speaker 2: include exhibitionism or voyeurism, smoking, lay tag, leather feet. And

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Speaker 2: then when it comes to like power dynamics, so you know,

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Speaker 2: particularly thinking about domination and submission, a dominant which depending

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Speaker 2: on your gender, folk make like to go by dominant

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Speaker 2: domin dom et cetera, or dominatrix that is the person

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Speaker 2: who is in this position of power, whereas the sub

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Speaker 2: is the person or to put it a different way,

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Speaker 2: a dominant is someone who is taking the power, whereas

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Speaker 2: the submissive or sub is the person that is giving

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Speaker 2: up their power. But it's something that's done consensually. It's

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Speaker 2: something that is done with a great level of care

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Speaker 2: and responsibility. And one of the things that I always

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Speaker 2: like to specify is that it's a common misunderstanding that like, oh,

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Speaker 2: dominant can just do whatever they want and like they're

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Speaker 2: the one that holds all the key, Like, actually, no,

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Speaker 2: it's the sub because the sub is the person that

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Speaker 2: can say, yeah, I'm want to continue this, no I

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Speaker 2: want us to slow down, or no I want us

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Speaker 2: to stop all together. What basically helps to make this

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Speaker 2: power dynamic safe is consent and being able to be

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Speaker 2: very clear and intentional before you even engage in that

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Speaker 2: kind of dynamic or scene about what you absolutely want

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Speaker 2: to do, what you don't want to do, what you

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Speaker 2: may be willing to try under very specific negotiation in terms,

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Speaker 2: but also being able to figure out how you're going

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Speaker 2: to communicate when you want to stop, slow down, or continue.

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Speaker 2: And so that's when safe words or safe phrases or

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Speaker 2: even safe signals come into play, which are pre negotiated.

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Speaker 2: There are some general community wide ones that people like using,

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Speaker 2: with the most famous one I can think of this

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Speaker 2: like the stop light one where red means stop, yellow

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Speaker 2: means hey, let's flow down, check in green means let's continue,

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Speaker 2: do more. This is great. We also people will have

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Speaker 2: some sensory idiosyncratic for themselves, so usually it's something that

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Speaker 2: is so kind of jarring that it will immediately make

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Speaker 2: you pay attention to it, and something like acupocal that

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Speaker 2: if you're in the middle of sex and somebody says that,

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Speaker 2: and that's your like queue to stop as a safe bird, Like,

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Speaker 2: I think that's a pretty good one. Yeah. But also

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Speaker 2: sometimes if there are acts that people engage in where

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Speaker 2: they might be nonverbal, like because they have a gag

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Speaker 2: in their mouth, for example, or maybe they get into

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Speaker 2: such an altered state of consciousness that it might be

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Speaker 2: hard for them to verbalize, there could be a pre

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Speaker 2: negotiated safe signal where they make a certain move or

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Speaker 2: gesture that indicates like, hey, this is great, let's keep going,

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Speaker 2: or we need to flow down, or this needs to

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Speaker 2: stop immediately.

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Speaker 1: So you brought up consents several times, and from what

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Speaker 1: you're describing, it sounds like there is a fair amount

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Speaker 1: of like talking probably on the front end right before

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Speaker 1: like a play or a scene. I think is how

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Speaker 1: you describe, right, Yeah, So can you talk about like

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Speaker 1: how are you sitting down to have this conversation? Right? Like,

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Speaker 1: are there some guidelines to follow, like how do you

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Speaker 1: set up a conversation around kink and medism?

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Speaker 2: Oh no, that's a great question. First, there's a number

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Speaker 2: of different models that people may harken to, So you

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Speaker 2: know some of the names for these models and their

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Speaker 2: acronyms that you might see out there like safe stayed in.

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Speaker 2: Consensual also notes SSC, risk of wear, consensual kink or

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Speaker 2: RACK personal responsibility informed consensual kink Alto notes prick carring, communication,

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Speaker 2: consent and caution, the four seas or as I like

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Speaker 2: to call it, fee to the fourth power, and then

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Speaker 2: trauma informed consensual kink TICK. So there are little nuances

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Speaker 2: between them, but some of the common threads is regardless

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Speaker 2: of the role that you're going to be assuming within

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Speaker 2: like any aspect of kink or BSM, if you want

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Speaker 2: to make sure that like when you come and approach

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Speaker 2: like a potential play a part, whether this is somebody

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Speaker 2: who're going to be involved in a long time dynamic

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Speaker 2: with or someone who it's going to be more casual

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Speaker 2: and short term. Also and pickup play is you come

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Speaker 2: prepared basically with like, hey, this is what I know,

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Speaker 2: I like and what I would like to do, either

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Speaker 2: for this time that we meet or like going into

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Speaker 2: the future and pre planning. But there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: upfront discussion about not only what you like, but like

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Speaker 2: the risks involved, like physically, mentally, emotionally, about also levels

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Speaker 2: of experience and competence of like, for example, I think

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Speaker 2: about something like shabari or rope play, is if you

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Speaker 2: don't know what you're doing, or if you're still really

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Speaker 2: new and green to that, you have the high potential

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Speaker 2: of injuring someone. And so it's important not only to

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Speaker 2: kind of have book knowledge about it, but to be like,

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Speaker 2: do you have practice, you have experience doing this, because

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Speaker 2: if you don't, somebody can get physically harmed in a

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Speaker 2: way that we want to always avoid. And so you know,

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Speaker 2: there's those things other things that come to mind. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: of just like making sure too that in addition to

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Speaker 2: kind of covering like what you like, what you don't like,

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Speaker 2: the possible risks entailed being able to negotiate like safe

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Speaker 2: word signals, et cetera. Is you want to also get

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Speaker 2: a sense of who these people are. And so usually

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Speaker 2: it's recommended throughout any stage of development a person is

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Speaker 2: in within BDSM and kink, but especially if you're new

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Speaker 2: to it, is to really get to take time to

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Speaker 2: know yourself and to take time to get to know

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Speaker 2: other people within your local BDSM and kink community. And

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Speaker 2: so one of the ways that this is typically accomplished

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Speaker 2: is through munches which are usually informal gatherings that can

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Speaker 2: happen in like a restaurant or a cafe where folks

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Speaker 2: are who are involved in like their particular local bda

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Speaker 2: Semn King community meet each other, get to know each other,

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Speaker 2: and then it's a nice compliment to like getting to

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Speaker 2: know people in a dungeon or a play party setting.

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Speaker 2: So with munches, those are typically like casual affairs where

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Speaker 2: like people are just wearing the regular clothes, nobody's engaging

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Speaker 2: in any kind of like sexual romantic activity. But it's

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Speaker 2: an opportunity for education, for fellowship and also just to

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Speaker 2: kind of get a sense of who people are, because

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Speaker 2: all people are fallible, even in a community that is

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Speaker 2: driven by ethics, as the bism and King communities are.

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Speaker 2: And so just because somebody comes in and says like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I have all this experience and I love doing this

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Speaker 2: and this is so much fun, doesn't mean that they're

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Speaker 2: necessarily going to be a ethical face or abiding a

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Speaker 2: trustworthy person. So that's another aspect too, like you want

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Speaker 2: to make sure that you're doing due diligence to try

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Speaker 2: to determine and other ways of figuring that out too,

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Speaker 2: is kind of of like getting people's advice or recommendations. Also,

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Speaker 2: people will give references right where It's like, before I

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Speaker 2: play with you, I want to see if there's other

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Speaker 2: people who've played with that I could speak with or

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Speaker 2: get a sense of, like how you are. That way,

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Speaker 2: I have like another layer of protection before I engage

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Speaker 2: in a scene or of any form of player or

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Speaker 2: a dynamic with you.

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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So, doctor Holmes,

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Speaker 1: Let's say somebody is enjoying our conversation and they think like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is something I might be interested in learning more about.

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Speaker 1: Where would they start? Like would they look for a munch.

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Speaker 2: In their area?

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Speaker 1: Is there like a website to explore? Like how would

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Speaker 1: somebody get started with kind of exploring this for themselves?

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Speaker 2: There are different points of entry, Like we're really an

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Speaker 2: a fortunate time where there's so many different access access

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Speaker 2: points that people can have in terms of information acclamation.

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Speaker 2: This is my kind of opinion. People don't have to

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Speaker 2: do this, but I would say definitely start with like

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Speaker 2: educational material, so books. One of my favorites is Playing

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Speaker 2: Well with Others, which was written by Wee. Harrington and

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Speaker 2: Malina Williams now known as Melena williams Hof. There are

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Speaker 2: also other books like on topping and bottoming and like,

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Speaker 2: there's a wealth of information out there. Also, there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of online and in person workshops that people

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Speaker 2: can attend. There are a number of conventions, including the

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Speaker 2: Stex Down South Convention, which is based in the metro

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Speaker 2: Atlanta area and usually happens like around September if I

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Speaker 2: remember correctly, of every year. So I would say, before

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Speaker 2: you actually take the step to go like I'm going

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Speaker 2: to meet people and I'm going to actually engage in

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Speaker 2: scenes and play or dynamics, is educate yourself more, because

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Speaker 2: sometimes what can happen is people may just lead with

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Speaker 2: I really like this, it's rousing and exciting, and I

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Speaker 2: just want to like jump in rather than going, okay,

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Speaker 2: well my interest is piqued. But what do I want

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Speaker 2: to get out of this experience? What about this is

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Speaker 2: truly appealing to me? Also what do I not like

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Speaker 2: as well? And also where are the things I'm uncertain

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Speaker 2: about that whether it's because I don't know if I

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Speaker 2: really would enjoy it, or I feel like it's too intiminating,

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Speaker 2: or I lack enough sufficient skills or knowledge to engage

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Speaker 2: with it successfully. So I would say always start with

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Speaker 2: education and self reflection first, and then I think the

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Speaker 2: next step would be and also to that piece, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of great like King can be as some

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Speaker 2: educators available online and in person that you can follow

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Speaker 2: and look at the ones that stick out to my

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Speaker 2: mind that are really great, or Marla Rene Stewart, who's

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Speaker 2: actually one of the co founders or founder if I'm

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Speaker 2: remembering correctly of the Sex Down Soeulth conference. There's also

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Speaker 2: Luna Matatas. They're also like Evy Loopine and like a

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Speaker 2: number of other people who are available with like online

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Speaker 2: websites but also who do like imperson workshops that like

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Speaker 2: you can learn from and get like a deeper perspective on.

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Speaker 2: But after you reach a point where you feel like

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Speaker 2: you have a good bread rock of knowledge, I think

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Speaker 2: the next step that you know would be appropriate would

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Speaker 2: be meeting people. So trying to see through like social media,

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Speaker 2: if there are local bsemn King communities in your area

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Speaker 2: that you can pap into and meet people from there. Also,

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Speaker 2: I think as of this time, fet Life is probably

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Speaker 2: the most popular online kind of social media website that's

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Speaker 2: completely dedicated to people who are in the BDSM and

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Speaker 2: king communities, and so I think those are some like

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Speaker 2: different tips that people could look at. Also, you could

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Speaker 2: see if there's like a dungeon in your local community

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Speaker 2: or area or region. Sometimes dungeons may have certain rules,

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Speaker 2: the regulations or protocols of like screening people before they

401
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 2: can come in, so be mindful of that. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: like those are some suggestions that immediately popp to mind

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Speaker 2: of like what people could do.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. And my understanding is that an important part

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Speaker 1: of BDS and play is often aftercare. Can you say

406
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Speaker 1: more about that in the role that plays in the

407
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Speaker 1: playing scene?

408
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Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, So when you're engaged in the scene, it

409
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 2: is emotionally, psychologically, physically, and again sometimes even spiritually very taxing.

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Speaker 2: I would kind of equate it to like, let's say

411
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Speaker 2: you go on a really long run, is you're at

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Speaker 2: this heightened level of like stimulation for a prolonged period

413
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Speaker 2: of time and then it stops, And so what can

414
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Speaker 2: happen is known as drop, whether it's sub drop or

415
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Speaker 2: dom drop or scene drop, where people are like I

416
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: am on this high and then all of a sudden

417
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Speaker 2: it stops, and people after that can sometimes experience distress

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Speaker 2: or significant exhaustion and fatigue, and in order to make

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Speaker 2: sure that people aren't just left with this like abrupt

420
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 2: end that can feel negative for people, folks will engage

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00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 2: in like intentional aftercare to make sure that their emotional, psychological, physiological,

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00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 2: and again even spiritual needs or addressed. So aftercare is

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Speaker 2: usually something that is pre negotiated and planned as a

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Speaker 2: part of the informed consent process so that people know

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Speaker 2: what they need and a very comperson in person. So

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Speaker 2: there's like no global script of what aftercare should look

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Speaker 2: like for everybody. Some people may find, oh, I really

428
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 2: need food and water. Other people may find I need

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Speaker 2: somebody to physically be in the room with me and

430
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Speaker 2: de brief with me. Other people may be like, hey,

431
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Speaker 2: I just need somebody to tell me that I did

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Speaker 2: a good job and kind of leave me to myself

433
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 2: as I do some deep breathing. Or some people are

434
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 2: like I need to go take a bath, And so

435
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 2: it varies from person to person, which is why again

436
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 2: self reflection is so important for people to really think like, yeah,

437
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 2: if you enter do something like this, what do you

438
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: anticipate knowing yourselves maybe some of your needs And it

439
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be perfect and aftercare is something that

440
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 2: can evolve over time. But I think it's important for

441
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 2: people to think critically about, like, yeah, what are my

442
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: needs and to not just kind of expect it to

443
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 2: come through autmosis or from other people immediately anticipating what

444
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 2: their needs are.

445
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 1: So as I'm listening to you talk about this doctor home,

446
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: it is striking me that you know, if there is

447
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: so much I mean, I guess there is any time

448
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: you have sex, right, like an emotional psychological risk, but

449
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: it feels like it's heightened in this situation right as

450
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 1: you're talking about like this drop. I wonder if there

451
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: are like psychological risks or like psychological factors that you

452
00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: should kind of be aware of for yourself that might

453
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: like this might not be a good time to explore

454
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: medias in in Kate, do some work before I get

455
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: to this place, Oh child, Okay.

456
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: No, because it's it's something that like both for people

457
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: who are in the mental health field that work would

458
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 2: videos I mean king populations talk about, but also like

459
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 2: even people who are king can beis and partitioners like

460
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 2: who are deeply involved in the community and themselves talk

461
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 2: about a lot because that is something that sometimes people

462
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 2: don't fully account for and now is becoming a forefront

463
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 2: of the informed consent process. Again, it's one of the

464
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 2: things that's very individualized. So, I mean, one of the

465
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 2: things I've seen is happening now when people go through

466
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:47,120
Speaker 2: air informed consent process is there's an explicit questioning about, hey,

467
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 2: you know when it comes to any of these particular

468
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 2: things you want to do, or just where you're at

469
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 2: generally right now when it comes to, you know, engaging

470
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 2: in any type of M or kink scene, is like,

471
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 2: how is your mental health now? We're not expecting, for example,

472
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 2: if you're in the kink and BSM community, to become

473
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 2: a de facto mental health practitioner, because for various reasons

474
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 2: you can't and shouldn't do that. But it's more about

475
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 2: being able to have that sense of care and concern

476
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 2: for people of like is this really the best time

477
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 2: to be doing this? Like is this something that's going

478
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 2: to be triggering for you? Is this something that you

479
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 2: can handle right now? Because sometimes there can be harm

480
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 2: or misunderstandings that happen because people either weren't being clear

481
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: or honest about what their personal threshold at that moment was.

482
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 2: So I think that Generally speaking, I would say, like,

483
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 2: if you are in a place where you're emotionally psychologically

484
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 2: very raw or tender, if you are struggling with your functioning,

485
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 2: if you meet criteria fire or diagnosis and the symptoms

486
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 2: attached to that dyet, or still very active, generally speaking,

487
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 2: I would say that you should either take a pause

488
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: before engaging or slow down and critically think about, like, well,

489
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 2: is it a matter of me maybe reducing the intensity

490
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: of the kind of scenes I typically engage with, or

491
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 2: should I maybe take a indefinite break so that I

492
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 2: can focus on my emotional psychological healing and be in

493
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 2: a better headspace for that. So it's again very personalized

494
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 2: for people. If you are a kink or bigis and

495
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 2: practitioner and you are being a kink affirming therapist, that's

496
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 2: a topic of discussion that you could bring up too,

497
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: where you're like, Hey, I know I'm not feeling my best.

498
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: I still would love to engage in scenes with people

499
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 2: or be in dynamics, but I am not so sure

500
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: if that's best for me. So like, can we talk about,

501
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 2: you know, what I'm going through and how to reconcile

502
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: these things, and what would seem to be the healthiest

503
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: choice to make at this time. So that's something that

504
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 2: can be processed thinking performing therapy.

505
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So I have

506
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: a bit of a follow up question there. In our

507
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: earlier podcast conversation we talked about, like how horror films

508
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: can help you process trauma, is there a way that

509
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: BDSM play and kink can also help you to process trauma? Like,

510
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: is there a way to use maybe past traumatic experiences

511
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: through play that allows you to heal from them?

512
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, no, definitely, Like that is actually I think

513
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: one of the benefits of it. So when it comes

514
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 2: to BDSM, kink and trauma, one is the number one

515
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: things I would like to share with people is like

516
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 2: or is introduced the misbusting essentially, because there's a number

517
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: of folk who have this misconception that, oh, well, if

518
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: you're a BDS, i'm or king practitioner, you are more

519
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 2: likely to have been a victim of trauma, and none

520
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 2: of the research shows that there's no correlation with that.

521
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 2: In fact, when we look at the psychological and emotional

522
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 2: well being of individuals in the king can BESM communities,

523
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 2: they're either on par with or exceed that of their

524
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 2: vanilla counterparts in peer So I always just like to

525
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 2: say that if like you are just because you're in

526
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 2: the bean king and BSM, it's not because of trauma,

527
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: and it doesn't mean that you have a greater likelihood

528
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:34,239
Speaker 2: of having been traumatized. But for those who you know,

529
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 2: have experienced trauma, they find it can be healing. One

530
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 2: of the main reasons is because they know what to expect.

531
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: There's clear communication. There's also explicit agency about what you

532
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 2: will and will not do. So instead of kind of

533
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: going through this vague exploration of what you do and

534
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 2: do not want to do, which can sometimes happen in

535
00:31:55,440 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 2: like vanilla sexual context, BDSM and kink by is like,

536
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 2: we are going to be very straightforward about what we

537
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 2: will will not do. Also, you know from the get go,

538
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 2: like you don't have to do anything you don't want

539
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 2: to do, and if you change your mind, you can.

540
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 2: That's one of the most beautiful things I love about

541
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 2: badasm and kink is it empowers people to know that

542
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,479
Speaker 2: they can change their mind and there's no caveats about

543
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 2: well you need to have a good reason or oh,

544
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: like I've kind of feel left out. It's like no,

545
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 2: like if you don't want to do it for any reason,

546
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,239
Speaker 2: it's fine and it stopped questions asked. But also it

547
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 2: can provide a safe container for people to confront trauma

548
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 2: and to work through it. So it can almost operate

549
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 2: off of the same underlying mechanisms and principles of like

550
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 2: exposure and habituation that we as mental health professionals are

551
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 2: aware of. So yeah, basically just providing a safe container

552
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 2: that people can co create, that is well structured and

553
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 2: designed for people to be able to have like a

554
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: positive sexual or romance or physical interaction with somebody, whether

555
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 2: or not they directly explore their trauma, because sometimes what's

556
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 2: healing about it if you're a trauma survivor engaged in

557
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 2: kink is not that you're implicitly focusing on the trauma,

558
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 2: but that you're able to go like I can have

559
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 2: essentially a corrective experience where it's like I can actually

560
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 2: be naked or have sex with someone and I don't

561
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,719
Speaker 2: get hurt, Like I am going to be okay throughout

562
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 2: the entire experience.

563
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: So what are some of the other myths that you

564
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: find yourself challenging frequently?

565
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:40,959
Speaker 2: Ooh, okay, that people who experience who are in king

566
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: commedism are inherently mentally ill, that there's something wrong with

567
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: you if you like that basically that they are abusers

568
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 2: or that they like being abused, that they are more

569
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 2: prone to violent And again when we look at and

570
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 2: the research base and evidence, like, there is no bearing

571
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 2: on that at all. In fact, I would say, like

572
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 2: because of the strong emphasis on being responsible, being caring,

573
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: being ethical, being clear, is that people are more well

574
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 2: adjusted in the BSM king community compared to their vanilla counterparts.

575
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 2: And also there are a lot of different protocols that

576
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 2: people go by to address times that harm happens and

577
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 2: also to actively try to prevent it from happening. And so,

578
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: like I mentioned before, there's nothing that shows that individuals

579
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: of BFM or kink involvement are more likely to be

580
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 2: mentally ill. In fact, they're more likely to not be.

581
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 2: And yeah, so like that's a lot of the misbusting

582
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 2: that I tackle. But also I think another thing that

583
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 2: goes along with that is helping clinicians in particular to

584
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 2: be aware of their own biases about this. Sometimes it's

585
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 2: called an ick or a quick, which is a portmanteau

586
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 2: of like squirm and inch of being aware. Just like

587
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 2: when we talk about anything related to margialized pressing different

588
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 2: text communities, it's like, what are your underlying beliefs about

589
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 2: people in this community? Where did that information come from?

590
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,240
Speaker 2: Is it based on fact or is it just based

591
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 2: on essentially myths, misconceptions or just your own personal kind

592
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 2: of likes or dislikes around things. And it's important to

593
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 2: look at that because I find a lot of times

594
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,280
Speaker 2: when people have squirms or x is based off of ignorance.

595
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 2: And so that's why I think education is so important

596
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 2: that way folks are able to examine, like, well is

597
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 2: that factual? I mean going back to like common behavioral therapy.

598
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: You can have a thought all day long, but like

599
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 2: is it factual? And like, especially if it's something you're

600
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 2: going to base your behaviors and how you treat people

601
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,760
Speaker 2: off of, it's important that it's accurate. I think another

602
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: miss but also something that kind of helps people are

603
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 2: still learning and becoming acquaint would be Yesiman Kink. Whether

604
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 2: you're a license myental health professional, whether you're a practitioner,

605
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 2: is about you don't have to like or agree with

606
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 2: everything you know, and you don't have to be into everything,

607
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 2: because I think sometimes folks may feel a pressure to like, oh, well,

608
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 2: I just have to like immediately think everything as wonderful

609
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: then like be on board with that. And it's like, well, no,

610
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 2: you can still have things that you have questions about.

611
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 2: You can still have things that you perhaps personally wouldn't

612
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 2: engage with and that you would explicitly tell people like

613
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 2: I don't do that. But you don't have the right

614
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 2: to treat people as this they're subhuman because you disagree

615
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,720
Speaker 2: with their particular kink or fetish or that power dynamic.

616
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: So you mentioned earlier that part of the reason why

617
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,720
Speaker 1: you have been so passionate about this work is because

618
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: black women and fans are often so constrained in terms

619
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: of like how sexuality shows up right, Like, there's a

620
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: lot of socidal messaging. I think that says like okay,

621
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: butanilla is okay. But you cannot go much further than that.

622
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: So what would you say to someone who maybe is

623
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: enjoying our conversation and is thinking like, Okay, maybe this

624
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: is something I want to explore but still maybe feels

625
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: a lot of shame, Like how do you work through

626
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: some of that?

627
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 2: Oh, that's I think the immediate thing that comes to

628
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 2: mind is like, shame is something that you can't undo

629
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 2: on your own. You always need the help of other people.

630
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,439
Speaker 2: I mean, yes, there can be the kind of introspection

631
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 2: of like breaking down why something is shameful, but I

632
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 2: think it's important to come to people that you trust,

633
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 2: who you know care about you and have unconditional and

634
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,720
Speaker 2: positive regard for you, whether in the context of therapy

635
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 2: and or being a part of the BDA semon king

636
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 2: community with trusted peer to be able to work through it.

637
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 2: And I think one of the things I always like

638
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 2: to let people know who have shame about any aspect

639
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 2: of their sexuality is like there's no rush to immediately

640
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,240
Speaker 2: switch the pendulum from feeling a shame to like feeling

641
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 2: full of pride and like buy in the T shirt

642
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 2: and having the bumper sticker, but of being able to

643
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: understand that it's a non linear process. And so I think, again,

644
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 2: it kind of goes back to what we were saying,

645
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,399
Speaker 2: is it factual? Like where does the shame come from?

646
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 2: Where does the messaging come from? Was it from a

647
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 2: credible store? Because sometimes a lot of times when it

648
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 2: comes to sex, a lot of people were like, well,

649
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 2: someone or multiple people told me that this was bad

650
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 2: or evil or disgusting, or I got the very clear

651
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 2: message implicitly or explicitly that I would be rejected or

652
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:44,240
Speaker 2: ostracized if I let it be known or actively expressed

653
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 2: desire to engage in this aspect of human sexuality. And

654
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 2: so I think it's always important to go back to like,

655
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 2: do those people know what they were talking about? You know,

656
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 2: there could be people who can come up with very

657
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 2: strong opinions, but if it isn't coming from a place

658
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 2: of accuracy, then you can't really put credence in it.

659
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 2: It would be like believing that the sun is made

660
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 2: of butter because multiple people repeatedly told you. They could

661
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 2: say that all day, but like you can't get your

662
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 2: butter knife and carb a piece out and put it

663
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 2: on your bagel. So I look at it like that,

664
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 2: at being able to really deconstruct where it comes from

665
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: and if it's accurate, but then also being able to

666
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 2: replace it with factual information. And I think also it's

667
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 2: important to distinguish like the difference between preference, opinion and

668
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 2: what the research base or evidence base says right and

669
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 2: what reality says, because I think it's somebody you can

670
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 2: come in and say like, well, I don't like it

671
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 2: because I wouldn't do that, or I don't like it

672
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 2: because I've never met anybody that does that, but not

673
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 2: one to do something is not the same as and

674
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 2: it's evil and I'm going to label you as being

675
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 2: a horrid, wretched person because of that. So I think

676
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 2: that's also important to make those distinctions for yourself between

677
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:09,720
Speaker 2: what's just a matter of preference or opinion, what does

678
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 2: this actually mean and look like, and what's the effect

679
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,399
Speaker 2: and consequences of it when it's an action? And then

680
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 2: what does the research base say, what does like the

681
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 2: educational base say.

682
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 1: So you mentioned earlier that for a lot of people

683
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: that you've talked with, like media has been their introduction

684
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 1: or they saw something or read something that made them think, oh,

685
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: I want to know more about this. I mean, we've

686
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: definitely seen BDSM and kink kind of in pop culture

687
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: and in media specifically movies and things like Fifty Shades

688
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 1: of Gray and more recently Baby Girl. What do you

689
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 1: think these pieces and maybe not just these pieces specifically,

690
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: but what does media generally get right about vidasm in cake?

691
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: And what would you like to see maybe done differently.

692
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,399
Speaker 2: Oh, this is a hard one for me because I've

693
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 2: seen how it goes so wrong so many times that

694
00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:00,399
Speaker 2: I've kind of like, I'm a little faulty about media

695
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 2: portrayals of BDSM and kink because they think typically what

696
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 2: they get wrong is consent and all the other ethical

697
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 2: pieces of it, where there are the fifty shades of

698
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 2: gray being a classic example, like that's been condemned by

699
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 2: the b SM kink community because the lead character is

700
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 2: not engaging in like ethical consensual practices and in a

701
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 2: number of ways like is exhibiting abuse and manipulation and coercion.

702
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 2: So there're like some media portrayals that like do that,

703
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 2: and like I think often there's like a lack of

704
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 2: exploring like the informed consent negotiation process, clear communication aftercare

705
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 2: some of the better examples that I've seen, like Secretary,

706
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:50,839
Speaker 2: even though there are some things that you did in

707
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 2: real life, I was like, well that wouldn't be ethical,

708
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 2: But like about the healing aspect of like the relationship

709
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 2: those two people who were able to use dynamics as

710
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 2: a way of being able to get better mentally, emotionally,

711
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 2: and physically. But also there's a documentary from the nineteen

712
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 2: nineties that I forget the name of, but was able

713
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 2: to go through in deep detail, like the training process

714
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 2: of if you're interested in being like a dominant or

715
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 2: the missives, and also being able to talk for FAMI

716
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 2: with people about like, well, what are your motivation, like

717
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 2: how do you engage in a practice, et cetera. So

718
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 2: I think like what I would like to see more of,

719
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 2: it's like more comprehensive, like from top to bottom of

720
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 2: what it would be like for a character to like

721
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 2: have their kind of kink awakening, to be able to

722
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 2: actually go through the process of like learning more about this,

723
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 2: but also if things go wrong, being able to show

724
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 2: how that could be corrected, rather than just being like, well,

725
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 2: something happened, and we're not going to for what happened,

726
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 2: and you're just going to move on to the next thing. Basically,

727
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 2: I want something that's a bit more realistic rather than

728
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 2: just kind of using BSM or kink as a plot

729
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 2: device or something.

730
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 1: You know. Mm hmmmm. So you mentioned that, you know,

731
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: large part of VDSM is kind of power play, and

732
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about like black women in films in spaces,

733
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: thinking about like race and gender kind of showing up

734
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: in that space, right, because that no space is free

735
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: of those kinds of isms. Right, So what kinds of

736
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: things do black women in films need to be aware

737
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 1: of in thinking about like finding affirming in like safe

738
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: places for them to kind of get more resources or

739
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: to be in community.

740
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, because the reality is, to be a Simon King,

741
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 2: community is predominantly white, and it's predominantly affluent, and it's

742
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 2: a little bit predominantly you know, people who pursued higher education,

743
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 2: et cetera. So there's a lot of privilege in that space.

744
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 2: And it's not just coming from like the practitioners, but

745
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: people who hold positions of power as a part of

746
00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 2: committees and boards and organizations. So and I mean there

747
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 2: has been not only for ten accounts, but research for

748
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 2: folks who've been like, yeah, even though I'm active in

749
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 2: this community, I have phased discrimination. It's not guaranteed to

750
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 2: happen every single time you go out to play, but

751
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 2: like any subculture is a microcosm of the broader culture,

752
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:22,240
Speaker 2: so it can happen. As a counterpoint to that, there

753
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 2: have been, over the course of decades a number of

754
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 2: blacks centered BDSM and kink organizations. So some of the

755
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 2: like broader ones that I can think of are like

756
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 2: Black Roads. There's also Onyx, which like it's divided like

757
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 2: their Onyx, which is predominantly for like gay black men.

758
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 2: And then there's Onyx Pearls for women and fem But

759
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 2: also there are small room, more independent like play parties

760
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: and communities that are created, and like I mentioned earlier,

761
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 2: they're sex down South, which was created predominantly by and

762
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 2: for black bds kink whilesos sex positives folks. So I

763
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 2: would just say, like particularly looking online or as you're

764
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 2: delving into it, of like following the educator who are

765
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 2: black women and fems, and then from there being able

766
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 2: to see like what would be events both online and

767
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 2: person that they're organizing or that they're supporting or that

768
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 2: they're promoting who.

769
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: We talked about some of the more mainstream examples of

770
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 1: media like the movies and stuff. But porn I think

771
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: is also another way that people maybe get introduced to

772
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: BDSHM in kink. Can you talk about or share you

773
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 1: some of your thoughts around like porn being a healthy

774
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 1: route to learning more about BDSHIM in kink and what

775
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 1: should people be aware of?

776
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess For me, in my mind, I categorize

777
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 2: porn into two main camps. There's like main stream porn

778
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 2: and then there's like more like ethical, independent, feminist queer porn,

779
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 2: and like when it comes to porn and those like

780
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 2: latter categories, I feel like there's more positive, healthy, realistic

781
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 2: representation of BDSM and kink. So like some places that

782
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 2: come to mind as like ex Confessions and Left Cinema

783
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:19,919
Speaker 2: by Erica Lust. There's also cam Damages online website. There's

784
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 2: also a four Chambered Heart that I think is like

785
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 2: really enjoyable and really beautiful and really like realistic and positive. Yeah,

786
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 2: So those are some of the examples I can think of,

787
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 2: and the reason why I like them is they're not

788
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:39,839
Speaker 2: only humanizing, but again you can tell that there is

789
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 2: a desire to gives like very faithful representations a BDSM

790
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 2: and kank and to make sure that you know, people

791
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 2: have like more of an accurate understanding as they're watching

792
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 2: it and not just thinking like, oh, this is just

793
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 2: just something cute that I can like take in, digest

794
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 2: and dispose of. Like, but they I think do a

795
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 2: good job. They do it justice, Doctor Holmes.

796
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: You've talked about like the importance of safety and kind

797
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: of your own self assessment before you kind of get

798
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 1: into play. Is there anything more that you want to

799
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: say about safety or things for people to consider as

800
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:15,720
Speaker 1: they are thinking more about this topic.

801
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 2: I think it just again. The only other thing that

802
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 2: would add that I haven't mentioned before would be following

803
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 2: your gut of like if there's something that just personally

804
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 2: for you doesn't feel right, then listening to that rather

805
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,760
Speaker 2: than just being like, oh, well, you know, I'm gonna

806
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 2: overlook that, because you know, I don't want to hurt

807
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 2: anybody's feelings or step on anybody's toes. Like you can

808
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 2: say no and be respectful, or you could say like

809
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 2: I feel uncomfortable, and I would also say that, like

810
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 2: if you're in that kind of leminal space where you're like,

811
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,879
Speaker 2: I don't feel like this is good, but I don't

812
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 2: have like all the information as to why, Like that's

813
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 2: enough of a reason, because they've sometimes seen when it

814
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 2: comes to romantic or sexual interactions of any sort, not

815
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 2: just the BDSM and kink, where people are like my

816
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 2: intuition was telling me like this wasn't okay, But because

817
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 2: I didn't immediately have all the information about why I proceeded,

818
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 2: and it was only afterwards that I realized why for me,

819
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 2: this wasn't going to be a good experience. And so

820
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,280
Speaker 2: I think it's important, like as a matter of safety,

821
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 2: of listening to that because you can take that extra

822
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 2: time to slow down and be like, well, what about

823
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 2: this doesn't feel good instead of just overlooking it and

824
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 2: rushing ahead to proceed with a particular person or fiene

825
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 2: or event. Also, going back to the educational piece, I

826
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 2: forgot to mention a jet sitting Jasmine who is a

827
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 2: porn performer, a sex educator who also does work when

828
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 2: it comes to sex positivity, BDSM and kink and her

829
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 2: husband who's a fellow performer and educator King Nowar do

830
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 2: really great work. Also, the extra cool thing is that

831
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:53,760
Speaker 2: jetsaying Jasmine is also a licensed with the health professional

832
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 2: as well.

833
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: Nice thank you for that additional resource. So you know,

834
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 1: you mentioned that sometimes like talking with a therapist, like

835
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 1: somebody who is like BDSM kink affirming could be a

836
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,439
Speaker 1: great way to kind of talk more about this. How

837
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: would we find a BDSM and kink affirming therapist? Like,

838
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 1: is there some registry, some directory, some certification that you

839
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: need to have that people should be aware of.

840
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 2: No, it's really cool. So now there's like a number

841
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 2: of places. So there are particular places like Kink Affirming Professionals,

842
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 2: which is a directory that was designed by the National

843
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 2: Coalition of Sexual Freedom for professionals who are not only

844
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 2: proficient when it comes to kink and BSM, but also

845
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 2: even ethical non monogamy, which is owned separate subculture and

846
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 2: category of sexuality. Is just to be able to make

847
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,399
Speaker 2: it easier to find folks to do that kind of work.

848
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 2: Though you could definitely go to there again, like CAP

849
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 2: Professionals or Kink Affirming Professionals directory. They're also though has

850
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 2: now in a lot of regular therapist directories been a

851
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,800
Speaker 2: different search terms or like boxes you can check related

852
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 2: to being like sex positive or kink affirming. I've seen

853
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 2: that on like Psychology Today. I've also seen that on

854
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 2: like Therapy Den. I've seen that on Inclusivetherapist dot com.

855
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:20,240
Speaker 2: So there's like a number of places that are general

856
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 2: directories as well that like they have those search terms

857
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 2: that you can put in and look for.

858
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: Got it and you mentioned that you are working on

859
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 1: a course to help clinicians to become more versed in

860
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 1: this and like do no Harm. So can you tell

861
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 1: us more about that course?

862
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's entitled the Kink and Clinical Practice when

863
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 2: in one course it is a AP approved continuing education course.

864
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:46,399
Speaker 2: There's also some approval from other mental health organizations and

865
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,479
Speaker 2: it's available through the Touchdown Institutes. I believe the link

866
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 2: should be available in the show notes if I remember correctly.

867
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 2: I designed it as an introductory level course for pre

868
00:50:56,239 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 2: licensed and licensed clinicians who again may be interesting or

869
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 2: heard about kink and BDFM, but they feel like, I

870
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 2: don't know anything about this, So it's a very fun

871
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,399
Speaker 2: and geeky and I think warm introductory course at least

872
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 2: I like to think. So that's how it's signed it

873
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 2: for people. And yeah, I'd be more than happy for

874
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 2: people to take part in that. Currently it's available as

875
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 2: like a self pace online course, so you could do

876
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 2: it at your own leisure.

877
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 1: And yeah, and you said that's at Touchstone dot com.

878
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Touchstone Institute got it.

879
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:31,760
Speaker 1: Okay, we definitely will include that in the show notes.

880
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 1: And likewise, where can people stay connected with you? What

881
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 1: is your website? As well as any social media handles

882
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 1: you'd like to share.

883
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 2: You can find me at the Center for Inclusive Therapy

884
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 2: and LAMA so the website addresses Inclusive Wellness dot com.

885
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 2: If I remembering correctly, and just search for doctor Lana

886
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 2: Holmes and I seed folks in individual and couple cell therapy.

887
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 2: And then also I'm available on LinkedIn as well, so

888
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 2: you can put in doctor Lana homes or Lana Homesidy

889
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 2: and find me there perfect well.

890
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending some more time with

891
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:05,760
Speaker 1: us today, doctor Holmes.

892
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Oh, the pleasure is all mine. Thank you.

893
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 1: I'm so glad doctor Holmes was able to join us

894
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: for this conversation and to share her expertise. It was

895
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 1: a pleasure to have us to join us and help

896
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 1: us break past taboo narratives, unpack shame, and reclaim our

897
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: sexuality with clarity and care. To learn more about her

898
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 1: and her work, be sure to visit the show notes

899
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash session four one six,

900
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: and don't forget to text two of your girls right

901
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 1: now and tell them to check out the episode. Did

902
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: you know that you could leave us a voicemail with

903
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 1: your questions or suggestions for the podcast? Whether you have

904
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 1: a question for me insights from a recent episode or

905
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 1: suggestions for topics, books or movies we should cover. Drop

906
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 1: us a voicemail at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for

907
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 1: Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.

908
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: We just might feature it in a future episode. If

909
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 1: you're looking for a therapys in your area, visit our

910
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 1: therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory,

911
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: and don't forget to follow us over on Instagram at

912
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls or join us over in our

913
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 1: Patreon community at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com

914
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 1: for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and more. We

915
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 1: can't wait to see you inside. This episode was produced

916
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 1: by Elise Ellis, Indechubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done

917
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,720
Speaker 1: by Dennis and Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining

918
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 1: me again this week. I look forward to continuing this

919
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

920
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 2: What's