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Speaker 1: Hi, Curse Up listeners, I know you miss me on

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Speaker 1: your feed. Don't worry. We're working on an all new

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Speaker 1: season of Curse Of coming out later this year. In

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Speaker 1: the meantime, if you can't stop thinking about the shocking

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Speaker 1: stories you heard about America's Next Top Model, you'll definitely

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Speaker 1: want to check out our new docuseries from E Dirty

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Speaker 1: Rotten Scandals. In the series, you'll hear from the America's

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Speaker 1: Next Top Model participants you heard from on Curse Of,

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Speaker 1: and a few you didn't like former A and TM

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Speaker 1: judge Janis Dickinson. Dirty Rotten Scandals unveils the dark underbelly

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Speaker 1: of the long running TV series through the untold stories

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Speaker 1: of former contestants, and shows what happens when a golden

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Speaker 1: opportunity for aspiring models unravels into a harrowing saga of exploitation,

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Speaker 1: shattered dreams, and resilience. You can find the two part

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Speaker 1: docuseries Dirty Rotten Scandals America's Next Top Model on E Network.

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Speaker 1: Check your local TV provider schedule.

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Speaker 2: I want to be on some.

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Speaker 1: You want to be on the Welcome to the Curse

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Speaker 1: of America's Next Top Model. I'm Bridget Armstrong, the A

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Speaker 1: and TM reckoning continues. There's a new docu series out today.

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Speaker 1: It's called Dirty Rotten Scandals, and there's a two part

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Speaker 1: series all about A and TM. The first episode premiere tonight,

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Speaker 1: March eleventh, on E at nine pm ET. In our

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Speaker 1: production company, Glass Entertainment Group worked on the docu series.

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Speaker 1: I've seen it, and y'all, it's deep. They talk to

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Speaker 1: a lot of the models and they're not letting Tyre

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Speaker 1: off the hook. It's really an unflinching look at A

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Speaker 1: and TM and it's aftermath on them and on us,

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Speaker 1: the audience. And so I'm joined today by Lauren saff

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Speaker 1: She was the executive producer of Dirty Rotten Scandals. Hey Lauren,

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Speaker 1: thanks for joining me.

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Speaker 2: Hello, thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: So I just want to start off. You know, A

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Speaker 1: and TM went off however many years ago, premiered over

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Speaker 1: twenty years ago. What made you want to re examine

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Speaker 1: this show now?

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, twenty years ago, when America's Next

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Speaker 3: Top Model was on, it was my favorite show. I

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Speaker 3: loved it. I watched it all the time I was

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Speaker 3: in college. It was appointment viewing. My friends and I

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Speaker 3: would all gather together and watch it and you know,

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Speaker 3: laugh at Tyra and the ridiculous girls, and you know,

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Speaker 3: be want to be judges in you know, our dorm

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Speaker 3: rooms while we like gorged on Chinese food and raspberry vodka,

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Speaker 3: being like, oh my god, like look at her. She'll

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Speaker 3: never be America's next Top Model. So you know, I

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Speaker 3: had a lot of nostalgia for it. And you know,

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Speaker 3: as I have grown and culture has grown, a lot

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Speaker 3: of these conversations they were having in America's Next Top

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Speaker 3: Model have been examined.

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Speaker 2: With a different view, in a different light, and so

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Speaker 2: I was.

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Speaker 3: Really interested in being a part of that conversation as

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Speaker 3: somebody that both really enjoyed it then still kind of

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Speaker 3: enjoys it now, but is also aware of how culture

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Speaker 3: and conversations about women's beauty and women's bodies have changed

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Speaker 3: over the years. And I wanted to examine where Tyra

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Speaker 3: and America's Next Top Model fit into that.

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Speaker 1: You know, one of the things we talked about on

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Speaker 1: Curse of was how A and TM allowed all of

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Speaker 1: us to sort of be these judges and how you know,

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Speaker 1: sadly it primed us as young women to enjoy sort

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Speaker 1: of picking apart or like tearing down other women. I

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Speaker 1: wonder when you watch it today, how you feel about

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Speaker 1: those times when you were sitting in the dorm room,

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Speaker 1: you know, judging the girls and saying they'll never be

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Speaker 1: America's next top model.

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Speaker 3: You know, Look, I don't think that America's Next Top

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Speaker 3: Model invented women tearing down other women. Like I don't

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Speaker 3: think that Tyra Banks is responsible for this idea that

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Speaker 3: women enjoy critiquing one another.

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Speaker 2: I think that she saw a market.

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Speaker 3: I think that she saw a aspect of human nature

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Speaker 3: and she tapped into it. But it's not even I mean,

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Speaker 3: as far as reality TV goes. I mean, I think

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Speaker 3: that this is not limited to women tearing down other women.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think we all like watching Top Chef

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Speaker 3: because you know, we like tearing down other people's cooking.

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Speaker 3: We like watching Project Runway because we, you know, like

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Speaker 3: critiquing other people's fashion.

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Speaker 2: Like I think that anybody.

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Speaker 3: Enjoys the opportunity to sit at home, in the comfort

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Speaker 3: of their living room as judge and jury. And this

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Speaker 3: was a particularly fun one because you know, most people

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Speaker 3: don't walk around this world looking like a model. So

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Speaker 3: do have all of these models here and have them

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Speaker 3: face the sort of critique that I think all women

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Speaker 3: feel that they face all the time was sort of

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Speaker 3: satisfying because it was like, oh wow, like, you know,

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Speaker 3: these girls were walking around my school. If these girls

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Speaker 3: were walking around in real life, like they would have everything,

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Speaker 3: their lives would be perfect, and then to see them

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Speaker 3: in this environment where they are faced with the same

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Speaker 3: insecurities that we are all faced with, I think was

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Speaker 3: somewhat satisfying to young women.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to get into what you explored on

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Speaker 1: the DACU series and your thoughts about all the conversation

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Speaker 1: that's been happening about A and TM. I just want

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Speaker 1: to know what went into making your docu series. I

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Speaker 1: know viewers might see two episodes, but I know from

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Speaker 1: experience there's a lot of work that goes into it.

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Speaker 1: So you know, how long did you research, how many

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Speaker 1: models did you interview? How long did the production take?

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Speaker 3: So we interviewed nine models and production actually took a

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Speaker 3: really long time. It wasn't really supposed to take such

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Speaker 3: a long time, but there was a lot of sort

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Speaker 3: of back and forth with the network and us deciding

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Speaker 3: and the network deciding exactly what they.

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Speaker 2: Wanted the tone of this show to be.

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Speaker 3: So we started shooting in December twenty twenty four, and

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Speaker 3: then we went into post and we started going back

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Speaker 3: and forth with a network on exactly how we wanted

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Speaker 3: to tell this story. You know, it was a little

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Speaker 3: bit difficult to strike the balance of this really fun,

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Speaker 3: sort of like nostalgic show that we all enjoyed, but

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Speaker 3: then also listen to these women's stories that were like

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Speaker 3: quite traumatic. Like a lot of these women really went

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Speaker 3: through some really terrible things, really dealt with some really

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Speaker 3: painful experiences as a result of their time on America's

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Speaker 3: Next Top Model. So we really wanted to pay reverence

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Speaker 3: to the seriousness of their traumas while also being authentic

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Speaker 3: to the viewers and their sort of fun, nostalgic memories

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Speaker 3: of this show that they once enjoyed. So it took

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Speaker 3: a little while to go back and forth with the

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Speaker 3: network and really figure out exactly how we were going

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Speaker 3: to strike that balance between the fun and the really

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Speaker 3: serious nature of.

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Speaker 2: What went on in the filming of that show.

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Speaker 1: So it's no secret that A and TM is having

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Speaker 1: a bit of a moment right now. There's the Dirty

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Speaker 1: Rotten Scandals docuseries, there's this podcast, and of course, Netflix

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Speaker 1: recently released their own docuseries all about A and TM,

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Speaker 1: and in their docuseries, they actually spoke with Tyra Banks

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Speaker 1: as well as some of the other judges. And we'll

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit later about how Tyra comes off

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Speaker 1: in that docuseries and how dirty ryding scandals really sort

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Speaker 1: of answers or handles the is tyravillan question. But in

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Speaker 1: that Netflix docuseries we see Tyra Banks use an excuse

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Speaker 1: that she's used over the years when asked about some

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Speaker 1: of the things that happened on A and TM and

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes, it's this excuse of it was a

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Speaker 1: different time that when A and TM was on, so

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Speaker 1: many of the things that really don't sit well with

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Speaker 1: us today were acceptable back then. But you know, in

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Speaker 1: doing your docuseries, you found that A and TM wasn't

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Speaker 1: just a product of its time. It actually went way

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Speaker 1: further than a lot of the other shows that were

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Speaker 1: on at that time. Could you talk about.

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Speaker 3: That, Yeah, I think that calling A and TM a

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Speaker 3: product of its time is a bit of a cop out.

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Speaker 3: I think that A and TM went further than its time.

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Speaker 3: You know, first of all, yes, there are a lot

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Speaker 3: of things about ANTM that were products of the time,

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Speaker 3: heroin cheeks, super skinny.

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Speaker 2: Girls, low slung genes.

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Speaker 3: The way that we spoke about women's body is the

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Speaker 3: way that we spoke about women's and you know, people's sexuality.

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Speaker 3: There was a different language that we used back then.

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Speaker 3: There was a different understanding of what was acceptable what

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Speaker 3: was not. One hundred percent that is true, but ANTM

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Speaker 3: went much further in the way that it tortured these

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Speaker 3: girls then, I think, just like the average girl was

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Speaker 3: tortured in two thousand and three. Like in two thousand

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Speaker 3: and three, we all saw super skinny women on TV,

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Speaker 3: like we all were faced with all of those kinds

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Speaker 3: of body images.

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Speaker 2: But A ANDTM took it further.

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Speaker 3: A and TM literally gave people psychological exams to talk about,

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Speaker 3: like their childhood traumas and find out their particular phobias

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Speaker 3: and trigger points, and then put them in situations to

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Speaker 3: exploit those fears and traumas to get a reaction for TV.

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Speaker 3: You know, the way that ANTM handled race, I think,

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Speaker 3: and the way that the black girls were treated versus

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Speaker 3: the white girls, the way the tyras spoke to people

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Speaker 3: of queer sexualities, and the way that they were portrayed

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Speaker 3: on TV. I don't think that was acceptable in two

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Speaker 3: thousand and three as much as it's not acceptable now.

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Speaker 3: Blackface was not okay in two thousand and three. I mean,

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Speaker 3: black place was never okay. But I think that in

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Speaker 3: an effort to be provocative and to be interesting and

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Speaker 3: to make good TV, Tyra went above and beyond to

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Speaker 3: really torture these girls to make good TV. More so

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Speaker 3: than I think we're talking about just like kind of

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Speaker 3: insensitive ways that we were talking about women's bodies and

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Speaker 3: sexual politics back then, I think that America's Next Top

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Speaker 3: Model went further even for the time.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a writer in your DOOCU series who

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Speaker 1: I thought this is a really effective thing to do,

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Speaker 1: who keeps coming back to the fact that Tyra made

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Speaker 1: a promise to these girls. She promised to be different.

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Speaker 1: She promised it just changed, you know, societal norms. Could

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Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about what that promise I

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Speaker 1: think meant for some of the models that you spoke

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Speaker 1: with and how Tyrah phil Shore of that promise.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So that was ray Sonnie amazing, hilarious, so smart, just

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Speaker 3: one of the best interviews that we did. Had some

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Speaker 3: super super interesting and really just really smart points about

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Speaker 3: Tyra and sort of the inherent problem with America's Next

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Speaker 3: Top Model, which is that Tyra made America's next Top

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Speaker 3: Model on the premise that she was going to change things.

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Speaker 3: She came out and said, America's next Top Model is

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Speaker 3: about diversity. America's Next Top Model is about finding girls

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Speaker 3: that don't fit beauty standards and telling them they're beautiful

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Speaker 3: and giving them a chance to make their dreams come true,

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Speaker 3: to change the beauty industry and to change the world

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Speaker 3: and let the world know that lots of different things

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Speaker 3: can be beautiful, not just like ninety five pound blonde women.

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Speaker 3: Tyra made this promise that that's what America's next Top

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Speaker 3: Model was going to be. And then she brought these

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Speaker 3: girls in. She brought you know, plus sized girls in.

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Speaker 3: She brought girls of all different skin tones and racial

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Speaker 3: backgrounds in, and as soon as she did, they were

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Speaker 3: ken and fodder.

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Speaker 2: As soon as those plus size.

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Speaker 3: Girls came on, all they were reminded was of that

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Speaker 3: they were plus size and that they were different, and

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Speaker 3: that the modeling industry was not for them. She treated

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Speaker 3: the black girls very, very differently than she treated the

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Speaker 3: white girls. There was a very very very specific way

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Speaker 3: in which blackness was acceptable and every other way was

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Speaker 3: not acceptable. You know, yah Ya was told that she

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Speaker 3: was too African. Kelly on season three was told that

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Speaker 3: she was too white. You know that she talked with

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Speaker 3: a prep school girl, and then you know, Tiffany, Danny, everybody.

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Speaker 2: You know, they were too ghetto.

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Speaker 3: She didn't like the way they talked, she didn't like

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Speaker 3: the way they carried themselves. They were too houci, they

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Speaker 3: were too hood, and you know that was unacceptable too.

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Speaker 3: So Tyra brought all these girls in from all different backgrounds.

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Speaker 3: She kept her promise in terms of making the cast diverse,

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Speaker 3: but then as soon as anybody different was in front

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Speaker 3: of her, all she did was reinforce the already accepted

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Speaker 3: standards of beauty and made these girls feel ashamed and

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Speaker 3: punished these girls for being a product of their own circumstances.

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Speaker 3: And you know that was really fucked up. She promised

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Speaker 3: them this was going to be different, and then it wasn't.

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Speaker 1: You know. I'm glad you brought up Tyra's specific interactions

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Speaker 1: with her black contestants on this podcast. One of my

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Speaker 1: favorite episodes was the episode we did about the way

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Speaker 1: race played out on that show. We talked a lot

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Speaker 1: on our season about Ebanie, who was on season one

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Speaker 1: and she was like sort of labeled the first angry

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Speaker 1: black woman of a and TM right, you guys talk

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Speaker 1: to Ebanie and there were some really specific, I think,

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Speaker 1: and hurtful things that happened to her on that show

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Speaker 1: because Tyra was a black woman and she expected that

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Speaker 1: Tyra would look out for her or have her back.

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Speaker 1: Could you talk a little bit about Ebonie and what

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Speaker 1: she told you guys.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, Ebanie was really disappointed in her experience

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Speaker 3: on America's Next Top Model. A lot of things happened

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Speaker 3: to her that shouldn't have, but one of the most

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Speaker 3: hurtful things that happened to her was, you know, Ebanie

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Speaker 3: was brought in as a dark skinned black woman and

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Speaker 3: told that she was beautiful because she was so different,

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Speaker 3: because she didn't look like everybody else, because she was

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Speaker 3: so interesting, because she was so strange looking, which in

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Speaker 3: and of itself is sort of a weird thing to

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Speaker 3: tell somebody. Nobody else thinks you're beautiful, but like, we

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Speaker 3: see something in you, as sort of a weird thing

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Speaker 3: to say to a young woman.

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Speaker 2: Then she was put in.

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Speaker 3: This position, and you know, she was critiqued for her body.

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Speaker 3: They were like, oh, you gotta watch your thighs, you

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Speaker 3: gotta watch your butt, and then she was critiqued for

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Speaker 3: her skin. Tyra went out of her way to say

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Speaker 3: to Ebanie that her skin texture was too rough, and

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Speaker 3: again like, this is something.

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Speaker 2: That ray Snnie said.

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Speaker 3: You know, I don't want to, you know, come off

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Speaker 3: as a white woman, like I understand all the nuances

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Speaker 3: of what that means. But for a light skinned black

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Speaker 3: woman to tell a dark skinned woman that her skin

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Speaker 3: is too rough in a public forum like this is

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Speaker 3: like a particularly hurtful and pointed comment. And Ebanie was shocked,

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Speaker 3: Like Ebanie was like, what are you talking about? My

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Speaker 3: skin is beautiful, Like what are you talking about? This

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Speaker 3: is crazy? And so then she obsessively started moisturizing, and

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Speaker 3: then her whole being greasy became this joke in the

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Speaker 3: house and she was again sort of mocked and made

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Speaker 3: fun of for being too greasy. And again, like Tira

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Speaker 3: is the executive producer of this show, Tyra is the

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Speaker 3: person that decides.

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Speaker 2: What's going to be on the show and what's not

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Speaker 2: going to be on the show.

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Speaker 3: So She didn't want these messages about skin texture and

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Speaker 3: light skin and dark skin and black skin and light skin,

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Speaker 3: you know, and having the girl with dark skin and

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Speaker 3: her skin being a plot point to be a joke

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Speaker 3: on the show. She wouldn't have included this. She wouldn't

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Speaker 3: have done this, but she did. It was an entire

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Speaker 3: plot point that everybody was making fun of Ebony for

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Speaker 3: being so greasy and getting the door nums greasy. And

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Speaker 3: the whole reason this was happening was because Tyra told

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Speaker 3: her that she was ashy. That is a really messed

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Speaker 3: up thing to put on TV season one of a

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Speaker 3: show where you claim that you are here to spread

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Speaker 3: love and spread messages of inclusion and tell everybody that

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Speaker 3: they are beautiful. It's just it was a really strange

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Speaker 3: foot to get off on, and Ebony was really shocked

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Speaker 3: and hurt.

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Speaker 1: You know, you make such a good point, right because

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Speaker 1: when Tyra is asked about her involvement in production, right,

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Speaker 1: when Tyra's asked about the storylines and the things we

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Speaker 1: saw unfold on A and TM, she usually stands behind

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Speaker 1: this whole I wasn't involved in production lines, like she

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Speaker 1: said it a million times, but that wasn't true at all.

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Speaker 1: Let's hear clip.

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Speaker 4: I got into the editing bay and I was like,

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Speaker 4: I love this fun putting it together, editing it.

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Speaker 5: Not only is Tyra onset, but Tyra goes to every

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Speaker 5: single editing session. She really sits there and knows exactly

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Speaker 5: what she wants to see fold out on tape.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, what do you make of Tyra trying to

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Speaker 1: distance herself from production and what did you find out

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Speaker 1: about that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's bullshit.

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Speaker 3: Every testimony that we got, every interview that we had,

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Speaker 3: confirmed the fact that Tyro was extremely involved in every

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Speaker 3: single aspect of the production of America's Next Time Model.

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Speaker 3: Tyro was the executive producer. Tyro was the host. Tyro

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Speaker 3: was the face. Tyro was in the edit bay, Tyro

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Speaker 3: was everywhere. She had her hands all over that show.

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Speaker 3: So Tyra often positioned herself, I think on the judging panel,

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Speaker 3: like against Janis or against people that.

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Speaker 2: Were making like the most problematic comments.

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Speaker 3: However, if Tyra didn't want those messages to be put

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Speaker 3: on TV and to be perpetuated by her show, they

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Speaker 3: wouldn't have been included. Tyra made a conscious effort to

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Speaker 3: position herself as this like, oh, I'm here to change everything.

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Speaker 3: And Janis represents, you know, the fashion industry and all

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Speaker 3: of the problematic messages. But Janis herself told us that

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Speaker 3: she was encouraged to speak like that, She was encouraged

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Speaker 3: to be mean, she was encouraged to be critical because

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Speaker 3: Tyra knew that that would make good TV. Tyra made

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Speaker 3: the choices of what she was going to put on

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Speaker 3: TV and what she wasn't. Nigel in an interview said,

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Speaker 3: you know, Tyra is a control freak ken mock and

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Speaker 3: in every interview said, you know, Tyra was his partner

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Speaker 3: in every single part of that show. So anything that

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Speaker 3: came out on that show was Tyra's decision, was Tyra's call.

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Speaker 3: So even if the words weren't coming out of her mouth,

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Speaker 3: I think it can still be attributed as something that

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Speaker 3: she wanted to put out into the universe. Tyra decided

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Speaker 3: what her show was going to be about, and that's

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Speaker 3: what that show was going to be about. Regardless of

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Speaker 3: whether or not it was her words or the girl's

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Speaker 3: words or Janis's words. Tyra made the decision of what

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Speaker 3: was going to be aired and what was not going

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Speaker 3: to be aired. So to say she was like well, like,

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Speaker 3: I had no choice of that. Like, ultimately, if Tyra

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Speaker 3: didn't want to show people speaking disparagingly about women's weight,

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Speaker 3: about black women, you know, if she didn't want to

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Speaker 3: show somebody getting too drunk, if she didn't want to

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Speaker 3: show somebody bullied, if she didn't want to show anything

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Speaker 3: that was showed on the show, she wouldn't have.

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Speaker 2: But she did.

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Speaker 1: You know, one question that I've thought about a lot

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Speaker 1: since rethinking about A and TM is where Tyra's intentions

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Speaker 1: went wrong and if she ever had good intentions? Right like?

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Speaker 1: You often hear Tira go back to her intentions when

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Speaker 1: we look at things like the black face challenge or

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Speaker 1: what have you, Like, I didn't mean for it to

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Speaker 1: come off like this, But when we look at like

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Speaker 1: the sort of larger issues within A and TM and

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Speaker 1: how they continued for years and years and years for

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Speaker 1: twenty four seasons, right like, it does make me wonder

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Speaker 1: that if Tyra cared so much about changing the industry

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Speaker 1: or changing the image of what we consider beautiful, why

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Speaker 1: did the show take the direction it did when she

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Speaker 1: had so much power? What do you think?

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Speaker 3: I think that Tyra's intention was to make a really good,

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Speaker 3: really popular, really entertaining TV show and to make herself

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Speaker 3: a lot of money.

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Speaker 2: Look, I think Tyra got high on her own supply

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Speaker 2: a little bit.

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Speaker 3: I do think that Tyra did think in some ways

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Speaker 3: that just giving these women platforms was helping in some

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Speaker 3: kind of way. Shamiri eber He talks about this in

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Speaker 3: our show, where the fact that Tyra brought in the

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Speaker 3: first trans woman, Tyra, you know, let people that were

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Speaker 3: bigger than a size two on TV. You know, Tyra

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Speaker 3: plucked girls out of unfortunate circumstances and put them on TV.

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Speaker 1: Like.

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Speaker 3: I think in Tyra's limited understanding of the world, she

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Speaker 3: did think.

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Speaker 2: That that was helping in some way.

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Speaker 3: But I think that that was really more just to

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Speaker 3: serve her own image and to serve the purpose of

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Speaker 3: making her look like the queen, you know, martyr, helper,

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Speaker 3: godlike figure, you know, of the one who would choose

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Speaker 3: these girls to pluck them out of obscurity and then

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Speaker 3: bring them out into the world, like without actually really

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Speaker 3: doing the work of figuring out what that would look

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Speaker 3: like to actually achieve that. I think Tyra's ultimate goal

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Speaker 3: was to make entertaining TV and to make herself a

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Speaker 3: lot of money.

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Speaker 2: And I think she achieved those goals.

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Speaker 3: Anything else that happened I think was either collateral damage

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Speaker 3: or you know, an unintended positive side effect. But I

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Speaker 3: don't think Tyra ever really thought that this show was

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Speaker 3: going to launch a supermodel's career. I think that she

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Speaker 3: knew better than that.

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Speaker 1: You Know. One of the things I think your docuseries

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Speaker 1: does really well is sort of looking at, of course

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Speaker 1: Tyra's role in this, but also like who Tyra was

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Speaker 1: when she came into the show, and maybe some of

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Speaker 1: the reasons why she did the things she did, you know,

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Speaker 1: beyond like fame and profit right and Tyra, as we know,

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Speaker 1: came up as a runway model and probably one of

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Speaker 1: the hardest times to be a model. She's talked about

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Speaker 1: many times how she was mighty shamed herself. She was

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Speaker 1: in the heroin Chic era. She's always been curvier than

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Speaker 1: the other models during that era. She talked about being

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Speaker 1: overlooked and underpaid because she was a black model, like Tyre,

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Speaker 1: was one of two like working black supermodels at the time.

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Speaker 1: But it seems like Tyra carried those issues that she

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Speaker 1: sort of dealt with onto A and TM without actually

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Speaker 1: resolving them. Could you talk about that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, you know, I think that something that our

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Speaker 3: documentary dives into that the other one did not is

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Speaker 3: ANTM being really a vehicle for Tyra's unresolved trauma. I

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Speaker 3: think that Tira probably went through a lot being a

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Speaker 3: black woman in the nineties, coming up in the fashion industry,

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Speaker 3: and you know, I can't imagine the racism she faced.

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Speaker 3: I can't imagine the body shaming that she faced. I think,

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Speaker 3: you know, even Tyra even before that. I know that

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Speaker 3: she is from Englewood and then went to a sort

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Speaker 3: of fancier private school for high school where I imagine

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Speaker 3: she was probably one of the only black girls in

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Speaker 3: school there.

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Speaker 2: So, you know, I think that Tyra has probably dealt

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Speaker 2: a lot with feeling.

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Speaker 3: Marginalized and having people around her that have made her

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Speaker 3: feel different or less then. But I think rather than

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Speaker 3: healing herself, rather than going to therapy, and rather than

438
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 3: figuring out how to not enact that trauma on others,

439
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 3: she was sort of taking out these issues and working

440
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 3: through her issues on all of these young girls that

441
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 3: had a dream. I think that, you know, there was

442
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 3: a little bit of her that was always insecure about

443
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,919
Speaker 3: her position, about her fame about her place and this

444
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,920
Speaker 3: world and this idea that you know, because she was

445
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,160
Speaker 3: sort of always pit against Naomi Campbell. And she says

446
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 3: this in an interview that we have on our show

447
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 3: that like she was raised in the industry with this

448
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 3: idea that like, you know, there was only room for one,

449
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 3: that Naomi was already there, and so if she wanted

450
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 3: to be the big black supermodel, she was going to

451
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 3: have to Naomi out. So then this idea was, then

452
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,479
Speaker 3: if she became so famous, the next person behind her

453
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 3: was going to come and knock her out. And I

454
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 3: think that she sort of imparted this on the girls

455
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 3: behind her. You know, nobody was ever going to be

456
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 3: as big as her, nobody was ever going to be

457
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,719
Speaker 3: able to touch her, and she kind of kept them

458
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:58,879
Speaker 3: down in a way so that they wouldn't be a

459
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:00,959
Speaker 3: threat to her. And you know, she went through all

460
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,200
Speaker 3: this stuff, She heard all of these terrible things about

461
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 3: her body. She was made to feel ashamed of you know,

462
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:07,919
Speaker 3: her boobs, of her butt, of being bigger than the

463
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 3: other girls. You know, she was made to think that,

464
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 3: you know, she was a black woman and there could

465
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 3: only be one, and so rather than embracing all of

466
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 3: these girls and saying like, hey, there's room for all

467
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,880
Speaker 3: of us, like we can all be at the top,

468
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 3: we can all be beautiful. She sort of imparted this

469
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 3: trauma on them the way that it was imparted on her.

470
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 2: You know, there was a lot of attitude that was like.

471
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 3: Well, you don't know what I've been through, Like I

472
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 3: went through this, I went through this, so I'm going

473
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 3: to put you through all of these things to see

474
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 3: if you can make it too. So rather than breaking

475
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 3: down the door and then smoothing the path for the

476
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 3: people behind her, she you know, through the same obstacles

477
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 3: in front of her, in front of everybody behind her.

478
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 2: And you know, that's kind of shitty.

479
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 3: And not only is that kind of shitty, but that

480
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 3: is exactly what she said she was trying not to do. So,

481
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,199
Speaker 3: you know, while you have to feel for her and

482
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 3: what she inevitably went through on her way to the top,

483
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 3: it seems kind of messed up that then she went

484
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 3: out of her way to put these other girls through

485
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 3: all that same trauma just because she hadn't worked through

486
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 3: her own pain yet.

487
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 1: And you know, when we look at specifically the way

488
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: she treated the black models and her ideas around race. Like,

489
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 1: Tyra very much positioned herself on that show as the

490
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: only judge of the right and wrong ways to be black,

491
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: And I think we see that play out a lot.

492
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 1: We saw it play out with Danny Evans. You know,

493
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: in the Netflix doc they talked about Tyra pushing Danny

494
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 1: to have her gap close, right, But you guys actually

495
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: explored why it's tied to respectability. Can you talk about that? Yeah?

496
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,360
Speaker 3: So you know what our doc does is we sort

497
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 3: of take a lot of these stories that the girls

498
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 3: went through and take it a step further and frame

499
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,199
Speaker 3: it in a different, larger cultural conversation about America's next

500
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 3: time model. For example, the Danny Evans story, Danny Evans

501
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,719
Speaker 3: was a girl from the South and she had a

502
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 3: gap in her teeth, and Tyra really really was like

503
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 3: hard on her and was like, hey, you're never going

504
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 3: to be America's next up model. You know, you're never

505
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 3: gonna be doing CoverGirl ads with this big gap in

506
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 3: your teeth. And you know, Danny talks about how messed

507
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 3: up that was and how she had to have this

508
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,439
Speaker 3: like invasive dental surgery and like how terrible that was.

509
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,439
Speaker 3: But we sort of take that a step further and

510
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 3: say that we think it's because Tira has this sort

511
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 3: of idea about acceptable presentations of blackness, where you know,

512
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 3: Danny's gap was associated with her being like too country,

513
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 3: her being too Southern, her being this version of black

514
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 3: that was viewed as unacceptable and unmarketable in the fashion industry,

515
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 3: and so Tyra was forcing her to close the gap

516
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 3: so that she could.

517
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 2: Be black in the right way.

518
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 3: You know, we talked about that too, like with Yah

519
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 3: Yah was too African, Tiffany was, you know, too hood.

520
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 3: There was another model in season nine, I can't remember

521
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 3: her name, which she kept getting like you're too houci,

522
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 3: too hoochi. And this also ties into the racewop challenges,

523
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 3: where you know, putting white women in dark makeup is

524
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 3: offensive and bad, but the big problem there was applauding

525
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 3: them for embodying blackness, like saying that you know, we're

526
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 3: putting you on black makeup, and then when you act

527
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 3: like you have an attitude, you're doing a good job,

528
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 3: and then you are representing blackness in this way.

529
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 2: Like it was a.

530
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 3: Very strange sort of idea of racial performity and that

531
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 3: there was a right way to do it and a

532
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 3: wrong way to do it. And that's what happened with

533
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 3: Danny and why that was really like uncomfortable and nefarious

534
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 3: is because like she was equating this gap in her

535
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 3: teeth with the wrong kind of racial performance, the same

536
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 3: that you know, then later when a white girl had

537
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 3: a gap in her teeth, they made the gap bigger

538
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 3: to make her look like Lauren Hutton. Because when the

539
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 3: white girl had the gap in her teeth, it wasn't

540
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,239
Speaker 3: associated with race at all. Then it was like a

541
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 3: cool fashion statement, but on a black girl it was

542
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 3: something else. And there was a lot of that going

543
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 3: on in America's Next Top Model, and there was a

544
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 3: lot of tire being the judge and jury about like

545
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 3: acceptable ways to be black and unacceptable ways to be black.

546
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 3: And that again clearly comes from some sort of place

547
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 3: in Tyra's past where I'm sure she was given all

548
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 3: sorts of messages about respectability politics and ways that she

549
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 3: should act in ways that she couldn't act, and to

550
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 3: impart that on these girls just really felt messed up

551
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 3: and uncomfortable.

552
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 1: And you know, on the show, when we saw contestants

553
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: pushed back against that right and wrong way to behave right,

554
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: they would often get punished for it. I think one

555
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 1: of the most famous interactions is that we were rooting

556
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: for you moment with Tiffany Richardson on season four where

557
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 1: Tiffany was not behaving the way that Tyra wanted to to.

558
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: Tiffany had been brought back on this show, but she

559
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: was still kind of expected to embody this like ghetto

560
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: girl who's nail changed is going to be a model

561
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 1: because Tyra gave her this opportunity. She was supposed to

562
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: embody that character, and when she didn't do it to

563
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: Tyra's expectations, we saw Tyra lose it. I don't know

564
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: for you, but for me, when I was researching this show,

565
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: one of the most shocking things was finding out that,

566
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: like as crazy as it seemed on the show what

567
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: Tyra did and said, there was way more that got

568
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: cut out and you talked to a model. We spoke

569
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 1: with her too, but you guys like really got into

570
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 1: some of the stuff that Tyra said that didn't make

571
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: it to the episode.

572
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know.

573
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 3: On the Netflix doc Ja talks about how there was

574
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 3: much more said in that altercation that made it to

575
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 3: the show, and we spoke to Brittany about it, who

576
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 3: basically said, you know, it was really uncomfortable. It was legit,

577
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 3: It was not Tyra performing, It was not her doing

578
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 3: this for the cameras. Like Tyra was genuinely triggered by

579
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 3: Tiffany in such a way that again I think goes

580
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 3: into this whole idea that America's next Top Model and

581
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 3: the things that happened there really come from a place

582
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 3: of like deep wounding in Tyra. But basically, you know,

583
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 3: Tyra threw Tiffany's past at her. You know, Tiffany basically

584
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 3: was kind of over it, according to Brittany, and that

585
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 3: she just wanted to go home, She wanted to see

586
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 3: her daughter. She just wasn't sort of feeling this competition anymore.

587
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 3: And Tyra just like let her have it. And Tyra

588
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 3: basically like guilted her about, you know, the idea that

589
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 3: she wasn't doing this for her daughter, and her daughter

590
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 3: was going to suffer. She wasn't going to take it seriously.

591
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 3: And her grandmother had her lights turned off so she

592
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 3: could buy her a bathing suit for the audition. And

593
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 3: if Tiffany wasn't going to take this seriously, and if

594
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 3: Tiffany wasn't going to care enough and you know, revere

595
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 3: Tyra enough and be grateful enough for this opportunity. Then

596
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 3: she was punishing these other you know, her daughter and

597
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 3: her grandmother and her family, like basically yelling at Tiffany,

598
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 3: like the only way for you to take care of

599
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 3: your family is to do the things that I'm telling

600
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 3: you to do, and you're not doing that, and so

601
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 3: that's disrespectful and you're going to suffer and your family

602
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 3: is going to suffer. It Just it was really dark

603
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 3: and really just from like an interesting place where it

604
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 3: makes you wonder, you know, the things that Tyra was told,

605
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 3: the things that Tyra has been through, and you know,

606
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 3: it really makes you just feel for Tiffany, who, you know,

607
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 3: according to Brittany, was really just in an uncomfortable situation.

608
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 3: You know, she was put in all of these places

609
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 3: that she didn't feel good, she didn't feel confident, she

610
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 3: missed her child, and she kind of just wanted to

611
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 3: go home and be done with it. But Tira just

612
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 3: wasn't having it.

613
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: She sort of represented everything I think Tyra didn't like

614
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: about like people black people she didn't deem as respectable,

615
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: or black people who didn't see, she didn't feel we're

616
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: grateful for the opportunity. I think she saw Tiffany as

617
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: a stereotype and she wanted her to transcend that stereotype

618
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: to be basically another stereotype, like another type of character.

619
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

620
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 3: I think she saw an opportunity to sort of mold

621
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 3: Tiffany into her own image, and then when Tiffany wasn't

622
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 3: falling in line, she just lost it.

623
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And you know it wasn't just race.

624
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: It wasn't just with racial issues that we saw Tyra

625
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: working out her or her own trauma. It was also

626
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: with like sexuality and being curvy and like celebrating or

627
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: not celebrating her body. You know, there's a moment that

628
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: you revisit on your series with Gina Turner, who was

629
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 1: on cycle twenty four. We also talked to Gina, but

630
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: we didn't we didn't talk about this incident on the podcast.

631
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: When Gina auditioned for the show and she was the

632
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: part of the auditions where you actually go before Tyra

633
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 1: and the judges, they brought up the fact that Gina

634
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: had posed for Playboy before coming on the show, right,

635
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: which you know, Tyra built most of her career as

636
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: a Victoria Secret model, she would think she was the

637
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: first black woman on a sports illustrated But with Gina,

638
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: Tyra basically slept, shamed her, or tried to make her

639
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: feel bad for having posed in Playboy. Let's hear a

640
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: clip of Gina talking about that.

641
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 4: They were like, so you went from childhood modeling to

642
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 4: like Vava Boom and Tyra's like looking at me like this,

643
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 4: And I was like, are you guys referring to Playboy?

644
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 4: As soon as I said that, I've noticed Tyra's expression

645
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 4: changed to like kind of smug and like cold. And

646
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 4: when I said the idea of selling sex worked for me.

647
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 4: Being sexy in my career worked for me, Tyra didn't

648
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 4: like that. And her response to me was you selling prostitute?

649
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, So Gina, you know, Gina was obsessed with Tyra.

650
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 3: Gina was obsessed with America's Next Top Model, and Gina,

651
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 3: you know, it was like her dream to be on it.

652
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 3: And Gina had done some modeling in the past, and

653
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 3: so they were obviously asking her about that at the audition,

654
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 3: you know, and go up and talk to all the girls.

655
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 3: And Gina had mentioned that she posed for Playboy, and

656
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,239
Speaker 3: apparently Tyra just like laid into her and was like,

657
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 3: that's unacceptable. She basically slut shamed her because Gina was

658
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 3: talking about how posing for Playboy and you know, leaning

659
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 3: into her sexuality had been really healing for her as

660
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 3: she was losing her hair because she had alopecia, and

661
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 3: Tyra basically told her she sounded like a prostitute, which

662
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 3: was really hurtful, especially, you know, to shame somebody for

663
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 3: closing for Playboy when you have made your entire career

664
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 3: in Sports Illustrated and Victoria's Secret.

665
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 2: You know, Tyra has been in her underwear everywhere.

666
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 3: Tyra has been in bathing suits everywhere, like there's really

667
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 3: no difference. But for some reason, I think because Tyra,

668
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 3: you know, has always been told she has boobs, she

669
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 3: has a butt, like Tyra would often equate like women

670
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 3: having women's bodies with them being overly sexual. Brittany also talked,

671
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 3: you know about how she was constantly called a porn star.

672
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 3: There was another model, I think season one or two

673
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 3: that you know, had bigger boobs and they were always like,

674
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 3: be careful, you know, you look like a porn star.

675
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 2: Be careful, you could look like a porn star.

676
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: So you mentioned it earlier. You guys spoke with Janis Dickinson,

677
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 1: who was absent from the Netflix Dock. She was also

678
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: absent from this podcast, and Lauren, I had to tell

679
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: you when I was watching the docuseries, I was I

680
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: had a little I I had a little issue with

681
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: with Janie because it felt like she almost wasn't taking

682
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 1: accountability for her role and everything we saw that happened

683
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 1: on Antim. I think for a lot of fans, especially

684
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 1: the early seasons, Janis is kind of the bad guy.

685
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: Like we certainly remember Janis saying like some really awful

686
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 1: things about women's bodies, and watching the docuseries, for me,

687
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 1: I was almost like she forgot all the things that

688
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: she said or that or maybe she thought we forgot.

689
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: And you know, we know that Janis was often sort

690
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: of set up to be the bad guy, but I

691
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 1: still just was like, I don't I don't know. It

692
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: just doesn't feel like she is like really understanding her

693
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: role and everything. And so I talk to you about that,

694
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,919
Speaker 1: and you offered a whole different perspective that I didn't

695
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 1: even know about. So tell me about Janis's involvement and

696
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,959
Speaker 1: and tell me what you learned about her from talking

697
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 1: to the models that were on the show.

698
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 3: So we spoke to Janie and you know, fair Janis

699
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 3: did say a lot that you know, she was encouraged

700
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 3: to be mean, like Simon Cow and they were sort

701
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,240
Speaker 3: of provoking her to be this like villain character.

702
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 2: And you know, I do think that also Janis.

703
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 3: You know, as we've been saying about Tyra that you know,

704
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 3: she's probably heard terrible things. She's probably been made to

705
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 3: feel certain kinds of ways. Janis also said in her

706
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 3: interview horrible, horrible things that casting producers and designers and

707
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 3: people look said to her being a woman coming up

708
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 3: in the time when she came up. So you know,

709
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 3: I do think that she also has a bit of

710
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 3: this idea of like, well, you know, this is what

711
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:44,399
Speaker 3: it's like out there, like you got to be ready,

712
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 3: you need to have a thick skin. But a lot

713
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 3: of the girls testified, you know, in their interviews basically

714
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 3: that Janis would often come up to them and apologize

715
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 3: after judging that. As soon as the cameras are wore off,

716
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 3: Janis would go back and she would talk to them

717
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 3: and she would check on them and she would say,

718
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 3: don't worry like, you guys are doing great. I know

719
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 3: how hard this is. You know, I'm sorry I had

720
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 3: to be so harsh. But all of them said that

721
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 3: Tyra never spoke to any of them when the cameras

722
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 3: were not rolling. As soon as the cameras were on,

723
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 3: Tyra I'd be like, hey, my babies, my girls, Mama,

724
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 3: Tyra like, I love you guys. I care about you guys,

725
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,720
Speaker 3: like you know, And then as soon as the cameras

726
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 3: were off. She never spoke to anybody about anything and

727
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 3: never apologized, never reached out to anybody, never took a

728
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 3: personal interest in anyone where Janis did so. She did

729
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 3: say some terrible things and look like I do think

730
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 3: that Janis is a body woman. I do think that

731
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 3: her humor is a little cruel. I do think that

732
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 3: that is just sort of her personality. But I do

733
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 3: think that Janis is peer of heart. Evani told a

734
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 3: story about when Tyra was going after her for the

735
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 3: texture of her skin, Janis overtly said like, this is crazy,

736
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 3: this is ridiculous. I won't participate in this and came

737
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 3: up to her afterwards and apologized. Brittany when Tyra was like,

738
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 3: she's a porn star you know, she's too much. Janis

739
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 3: came up to her afterward and like said, like that's crazy,

740
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 3: You're great, You're beautiful. I think you should win. Like

741
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 3: all of the girls said how nice Janis was when

742
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 3: the cameras were not rolling, and all of them said

743
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 3: how Tyra did not give anybody the time of day

744
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 3: when the cameras were not rolling. So I think that

745
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 3: that says something about something. And I think that Janis

746
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 3: was often put in the position to be the villain

747
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 3: so Tyra could look like the hero while the cameras

748
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 3: were rolling.

749
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,919
Speaker 1: Why do you think Jannis chose to speak to you

750
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: guys as opposed to like being in the Netflix stock

751
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 1: where we saw all the other judges.

752
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 3: Well, we were talking to all of the judges, We

753
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 3: spoke to Tyra's people, we spoke to Nigel and in talks.

754
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 3: You know, while we knew, we knew that we were

755
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 3: casting and shooting this at the same time that the

756
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 3: Netflix stock was, So it was clear that they were

757
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 3: talking to both of us, and it was clear that

758
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 3: the Jays and.

759
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 2: Nigel were talking to Tyra.

760
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 3: It was clear that they were all sort of in

761
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 3: cahoots on the same page that whoever they were going

762
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 3: to talk to, they were going to talk to together. So,

763
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 3: you know, we spoke to all of them. We told

764
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 3: them what we were going to do. I'm guessing Netflix

765
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 3: did as well. I don't know they offered versus what

766
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 3: we offered. I don't know any of that. But they

767
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 3: were all clearly partners in this, and they had all

768
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 3: clearly spoken behind the scenes and decided that they were

769
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 3: going to be on the same page, that they were

770
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 3: going to commit to the same narrative, and that they

771
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 3: were going to do whatever they were going to do together.

772
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 3: And Janis was very clearly not a part of that.

773
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 3: Janis does not like Tyra, does not get along with Tyra,

774
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 3: was going to do the opposite of whatever Tyra did.

775
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 3: So I think when the other judges decided that they

776
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 3: were going to do the Netflix stock, Janis was obviously

777
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 3: going to do the other one. So that's why she

778
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 3: spoke to us, or potentially, I actually don't really know

779
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 3: the order in which it happened. It's possible that Janis

780
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:43,879
Speaker 3: decided she was going to talk to us, and then

781
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 3: when the other judges heard that Janis was talking to us,

782
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 3: they decided to go the other way.

783
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,720
Speaker 2: I don't know the order in which it happened.

784
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 3: I just know that there were clearly divided lines upon

785
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 3: who was allied with who.

786
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,959
Speaker 1: There are a few other stories that you guys cover

787
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: in your series that I think have been covered extensively

788
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: in other places, and one of them is about a

789
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 1: contestant name Marianna Poohar. Could you talk about Marianna, what

790
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: happened to her and what her story sort of tells

791
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: us about A and TM's relationship with the models who

792
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: were on the show.

793
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, Marianna Poohar was a contestant on Cycle

794
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 3: twenty one, and she, you know, unfortunately, after the show ended,

795
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,959
Speaker 3: was involved in a situation where she was killed. Look,

796
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 3: I am not going to say, by any stretch of

797
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 3: the imagination that it's America's Next Top Model's fault that

798
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 3: she was killed, but she is sort of an example

799
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 3: of somebody that America's Next Top Model went out of

800
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 3: its way to find girls from rough backgrounds. America's Next

801
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 3: Top Model went out of its way to find people

802
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 3: with difficult upbringing. She spoke about how her you know,

803
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 3: father had abandoned her, she was in an abusive relationship,

804
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 3: She came from a rough neighborhood, and then America's Next

805
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 3: Top Model offered her an opportunity. Well the show, she

806
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 3: was told, you know, she was too street, she was

807
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 3: too ghetto, she was too whatever, and then they spit

808
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 3: her back out into this life that you know, was

809
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 3: just as rough as the one they plugged her out from.

810
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 3: She went back to this boyfriend who put her in

811
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 3: an unfortunate situation, and then both of them got killed.

812
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,399
Speaker 3: It's not America's Next Top Model's fault, it's not Tyra

813
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 3: Banks's fault. It's just sort of an example of how

814
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 3: America's Next Top Model didn't help these girls. It's an

815
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 3: example of how after they did what they did for Tyra,

816
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 3: after they made Tyra money, after they gave Tyra's success,

817
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 3: they were just spit back out into these lives that

818
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 3: were hard and that were difficult, with nothing to show

819
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 3: for what they had done for Tyra. Angelie Preston talks

820
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 3: about something similar. She you know, the saying came from

821
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 3: sort of a rough background, came on the show, got

822
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,479
Speaker 3: like a little taste of a dream coming true, got

823
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 3: this idea that you know, maybe Tyra was gonna help,

824
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 3: maybe life was going to be better. After this, and

825
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 3: that again was spit back out into the life that

826
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 3: she came from, where she was forced to, you know,

827
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 3: do sex work and do all sorts of things that

828
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 3: she was hoping that she wouldn't have to do anymore.

829
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 3: That Tyra had kind of promised them that they weren't

830
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 3: going to have to do anymore because she was going

831
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 3: to help them make their dreams come true. And then

832
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 3: she did not. She did nothing. She didn't reach out

833
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 3: to anybody, she didn't help anybody, She didn't do anything

834
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 3: for anybody as soon as they were done making money

835
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 3: for her on the show. So that's kind of the

836
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 3: story of Miriann, it's the story of Renee Alway. And

837
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 3: there were a lot of girls that really faced unfortunate

838
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 3: circumstances after the show.

839
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 2: And again that's not America's Next Top Model's fault.

840
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 3: It's just sort of an example of how America's Next

841
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 3: Top Model didn't help anybody.

842
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: What would you say is the most surprising thing you

843
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: learned while producing this series?

844
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,320
Speaker 3: You know, I think the most surprising thing I learned

845
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 3: is just how much these girls were taking advantage of

846
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 3: you know, none of them were paid, they were you know,

847
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 3: told to put their entire lives on TV, tell everybody

848
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 3: their life trauma, their phobias, their every issue they ever

849
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 3: had on these psychological exams, and then all of that

850
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 3: stuff was used against them for entertainment, for ratings, to

851
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 3: make Tyra money, to make the network money, to make

852
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 3: America's Next Top Model the intellectual property that when international

853
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,959
Speaker 3: it was in one hundred and twenty seven countries, Tyra

854
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 3: got paid for every single one of those Like, none

855
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 3: of these girls got paid for any of it. None

856
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 3: of these girls really were helped in any way by

857
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 3: America's Next Top Model. All they were was traumatized, given

858
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 3: body issues, given identity issues, humiliated on national TV, and

859
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 3: you know, they really have nothing to show for it.

860
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 3: I think I wasn't really able to quantify exactly what

861
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 3: these girls sacrificed to be on America's Next Top Model

862
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 3: and exactly what Tyra gained. So just like the sheer

863
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 3: magnitude I think of how successful Tyro became and how

864
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 3: hurt these girls were was the most shocking part to me.

865
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: You know, I think the Dakuse certainly does a great

866
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: job of sort of looking at the aftermath of this show,

867
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 1: particularly for the models. You know, you get into the

868
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: winners who struggled financially after being on the show. You

869
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 1: can talk to contestants who say that their careers are

870
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 1: actually hurt because they were on it. You talk to

871
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 1: people about their long term psychological trauma, how the body

872
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: shaming created issues that they still carry to this day.

873
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 1: And I think it really gets at this point that

874
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,399
Speaker 1: the contestants felt betrayed because they were sold one thing

875
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,760
Speaker 1: and sort of left with nothing. What would you say

876
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: they want today? Like, what do they want from Tyra?

877
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 1: What do they want from ANTM execs? And if they

878
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: get what they want, do you think that will change anything?

879
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 3: You know, I don't think that anything can change at

880
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 3: this point. I think what they want is acknowledgment that

881
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 3: they're not crazy. Like I think they just want Tyra

882
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 3: to admit that this was never about making.

883
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 2: Dreams come true. This was never about giving somebody a career.

884
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 3: This was always about making a successful show to make

885
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 3: Tyra money and make Tyra more famous. I think that

886
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,240
Speaker 3: they are tired of being gas lit into this idea

887
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 3: that America's next top model was ever a vehicle for

888
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 3: their success, was ever going to make anybody famous, was

889
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 3: ever going to make anybody money. You know, they feel

890
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,320
Speaker 3: like they were betrayed and bamboozled, like they were promised

891
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 3: they were It was a real bait and switch. They

892
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 3: were promised one thing and they were given another, and

893
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,879
Speaker 3: then in retrospect, it seems clear that like the thing

894
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 3: that they were promised was never possible, that America's next

895
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 3: Top Model was never set up to give anybody a career,

896
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 3: America's next top Model was never going to really be

897
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 3: able to catapult somebody from obscurity into the high end

898
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 3: fashion world.

899
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:38,240
Speaker 2: Like that just doesn't even really make any sense.

900
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 3: So I think that they just want to hear from

901
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 3: Tyra's mouth one an apology for lying to them, and

902
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,320
Speaker 3: to just sort of the acknowledgment of what they already

903
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 3: know to be true, which is that Tyra lied to them,

904
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 3: that Tyra promised them one thing but that was never

905
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 3: really a possibility, and that they were used for Tyra's

906
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 3: own success. I think that that would it wouldn't change anything.

907
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 3: It wouldn't give them any money, it wouldn't take their

908
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 3: trauma away, it wouldn't give them years back on their life,

909
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 3: it wouldn't help their careers. I think that there's just

910
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 3: like a satisfaction in hearing something you know to be

911
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 3: true that nobody's ever said out loud, Like it just

912
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 3: makes you feel not crazy, Like you know if an

913
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 3: ex boyfriend years later comes to you and says like, hey,

914
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 3: you know what, like I was a dick, Like I

915
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 3: treated you terribly, you deserved better. I am sorry, Like

916
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 3: that doesn't change anything, but it just is validating to

917
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 3: know that you're not crazy. And I think that that

918
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 3: is what these women want from Tyra.

919
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: So let me ask you this, after talking to all

920
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:47,320
Speaker 1: these models, knowing all the sordid details of what happened

921
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: on the A and TM set, are you still able

922
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 1: to watch ANTM today and enjoy it?

923
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 2: I mean, look that it's a complicated question.

924
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 3: The answer is yes, Like America's textop Model is an

925
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:05,760
Speaker 3: amazing show, Like it is entertainment. You know, in preparing

926
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 3: for this show, I went back and I watched a

927
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 3: lot of these episodes and they are truly even crazier

928
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 3: than I remembered them being.

929
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 2: They are doing wild shit to these girls.

930
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 3: They are saying wild shit to these girls, like purely

931
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 3: just in terms of shock value, like it is entertaining.

932
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 3: Now do I struggle a little bit knowing you know,

933
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 3: what these girls went through, like how cruel it was

934
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 3: and what they went through afterwards. Yes, like that certainly

935
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 3: does taint the enjoyment of the show. But as a viewer,

936
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 3: there's no denying that watching this is good TV. You know,

937
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 3: you have to give it to production for putting together

938
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 3: compelling television. It's just really a shame that they had

939
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 3: to do it at the expense of these girls. I

940
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 3: kind of wish that, you know, the show was able

941
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 3: to just be what it was and say, hey, women,

942
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 3: do you want to come get paid a bunch of

943
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 3: money to make this really great TV show? That it's

944
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 3: entertaining people, and that everybody could have been on the

945
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 3: same page, and that you know, everybody was in on

946
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:06,720
Speaker 3: the joke and that everybody was in on the secret

947
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 3: and they all could have worked together to make this entertainment.

948
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 3: But there is no denying that it's an entertaining show.

949
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 3: When I had to sit down and watch a bunch

950
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 3: of episodes for the doc, you know, I was like,

951
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 3: this is the best day at work ever. Like I'm

952
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 3: just watching America's Next Top Model all day and it's

953
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:27,879
Speaker 3: work Like this is great. So while you do feel

954
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 3: a little conflicted because you know what these people went

955
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 3: through to do it.

956
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,760
Speaker 2: There's absolutely no denying that the show.

957
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 3: Was entertaining, and frankly, maybe even more entertaining now than

958
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 3: it was then, just because it's so crazy, Like the

959
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 3: shock value of what is happening in front of your

960
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 3: eyes is so almost unbelievable that people said this, that

961
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 3: people did this, that people thought about this, that this

962
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 3: was allowed, like you kind of like can't take your

963
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 3: eyes away.

964
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 1: And I think that just speaks to why we are

965
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: still twenty years later talking about A and TM. Yes

966
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: you can catch Dirty Rotten Scandals tonight, March eleven on e.

967
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: It premieres nine pm ET, six pm Central. Make sure

968
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 1: you watch it. It's really really interesting, y'all. Lauren, thanks so

969
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: much for joining me.

970
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Bridget for having me watch tonight.

971
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 3: It's going to be great.

972
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 2: And thank you to all the women that we talked to.

973
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 3: Couldn't have made the show without you, and thank you

974
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 3: for sharing your stories.

975
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 2: And it's going to be a really great show. I

976
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 2: hope everybody watches.

977
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 1: The Curse of America's Next Top Model is a production

978
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: of Glass Podcast, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in

979
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: partnership with iHeart Podcast. The show is executive produced by

980
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: Nancy Glass, hosted and senior produced by me Bridget Armstrong.

981
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 1: Our story editor is Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben

982
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 1: Fetterman and Andrea Gunning. Associate producers are Kristin Melcri and

983
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 1: Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck.

984
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 1: Audio editing and mixing on this episode by Matt del Vecchio.

985
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: Of America's Next Top Model theme was composed by Oliver Bains.

986
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 1: Music library provided by myb Music and For more podcasts

987
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

988
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 1: you get your podcast. Also check out the Etglass Podcast

989
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 1: Instagram for Curse of America's Next Top Model behind the

990
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: scenes content