WEBVTT - From the Vault: Animals Throwing Stuff, Part 2 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:08.119 Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:09.560 name is Robert Lamb. 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:12.400 And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're bringing you an episode 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:15.239 from the vault today. This is part two in our 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:20.560 series on throwing behavior in non human animals. This originally 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:29.120 published January fourth, twenty twenty three. Hope you enjoy. 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:35.560 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:39.800 Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:40.840 name is Robert. 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.320 Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:47.879 two of our series on throwing behavior in animals. Now. 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:53.320 In the previous episode, we focused almost exclusively on allegations 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:56.640 from a paper published toward the end of last year 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:01.080 in twenty twenty two about octopuses throwing stuff, or at 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:04.800 least appearing to throw stuff deliberately at one another, often 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:09.200 not just stuff, as in like hard singular objects, but 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:12.480 like fistfuls of sand, just trying to throw the silt 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:13.559 right in each other's eyes. 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:17.200 Yeah, yeah, that was a lot of fun. Ocopus is 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:17.959 playing dirty. 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:22.160 But I had been looking around to try to find 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:25.880 a good ancient myth or story that's centered on the 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:28.320 act of throwing because it just seemed like there would 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:30.880 be such a thing, right, like a throwing contest between 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.520 the gods or something like that. And I think this 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:36.560 must have been a common set piece since time immemorial. 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:38.720 I'm sure there are examples like that, but I couldn't 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:42.320 find a good one for today. However, I did want 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:45.080 to talk about a myth that draws an interesting connection 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:49.480 between an act of throwing and the origin of humankind, 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.800 or at least the present lineage of humankind, and that 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:56.400 is the Greek myth of Deucalion and Pyrah. 0:01:57.480 --> 0:01:59.240 Now, this one's not ringing a bell for me. I 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:02.440 have my son where around I could perhaps he knows 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:05.360 this one, But yeah, this is not one that that 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:07.120 that instantly springs into my head. 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:10.320 Well settle in. It's a good story. So the version 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:12.280 of the story I'm going to reference is the one 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:16.640 told in Avid's Metamorphoses. So this is going to include 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:21.400 some some Roman flare on the on the Greek myth. Avid, 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:25.720 of course, was a first century BCE Roman poet, and 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:29.919 this is from his Metamorphoses book one, translated by Brooks Moore. Now, 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:33.840 the context of the of the story is that it's 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:36.840 sort of the Greek or Roman version of the Great 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:39.800 Flood story that we know from from other ancient texts 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:41.760 that we know from the Hebrew Bible, that we know 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:45.440 from the from the Epic of Gilgamesh and so forth. 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:50.120 So in this version, after the primordial ages and the 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:53.320 origin of the gods and the giants and humankind, the 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.960 gods look down on Earth and they're like, it stinks 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:03.600 human humans are awful discussing evil. There's a particular incident 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:06.440 that really makes the gods upset where this vile king 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:10.440 like Chaon, tries to make Zeus in the gods do 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:14.880 cannibalism to test their omnission. So he kills his own son, 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:18.920 cooks him and tries to serve him to Zeus to see, like, 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:22.079 is Zeus gonna know that this is my son? Hilarious? 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:25.919 Yeah, I definitely remember, like Chaon, we talked about him before. 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:29.520 Yes, yes, he has come up. So Zeus or Jupiter 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:32.680 decides he's going to destroy the world with a great flood, 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:36.080 and he does. It's brutal. Apparently only two humans are 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:39.440 saved from the flood, and they are from the region 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:44.280 of Focis. They are a pious married couple named Deucalion 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:48.280 who is the son of Prometheus, and Pira, who is 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:53.160 the daughter of Epimetheus. Now they survive the deluge, I think, 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:54.960 on a little boat, and they end up beached on 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:57.800 a mountaintop. It might be the top of Mount Parnassis, 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:00.440 but anyway, they end up stranded up on a mountain. 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:03.320 The floodwaters recede, so they survive. But the rest of 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:06.120 humanity's been destroyed. So what are they going to do now? 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:10.360 Now they're all alone, And because they are a pious couple, 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:12.880 they decide they should ask the gods for help. So 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:16.440 here I'm going to start reading from the Brooksmore translation 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.080 of Avid. And after he had spoken, they resolved to 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:23.640 ask the aid of sacred oracles. And so they hastened 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:28.320 to Keffesian waves, which rolled a turbid flood in channels 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:32.480 known thence. When their robes and brows were sprinkled well, 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:36.440 they turned their footsteps to the Goddess Fane. Its gables 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:40.000 were befouled with reeking moss, and on its altars every 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:43.479 fire was cold. But when the twain had reached the 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:46.920 temple steps, they fell upon the earth, inspired with awe, 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.880 and kissed the cold stone with their trembling lips and said, 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:54.640 if righteous prayers appease the gods, and if the wrath 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:59.039 of high celestial powers may thus be turned, declare Othamus, 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:04.000 whence what the art may raise humanity? Oh, gentle Goddess, 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:08.440 help the dying world. Okay, So they turned to the 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:10.680 gods for help. They go to the temple of Thamus. 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:12.920 Of course, all the fires have gone out because it's 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:15.440 been flooding, and it's covered with reeking moss, so the 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:17.799 temples even nasty now. But still they're going to kneel 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:20.000 down and kiss the stones of the temple to show 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.120 how holy they are. And they ask Thamus for help, 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:27.440 and Thamus replies, So the poem goes on. Moved by 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:31.960 their supplications, she replied, depart from me and veil your brows, 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.920 ungourge your robes, and cast behind you as you go 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:40.919 the bones of your great mother. Long they stood in 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:45.560 dumb amazement. Pira. First a voice refused the mandate, and 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:49.480 with trembling lips implored the goddess to forgive. She feared 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:53.000 to violate her mother's bones and vex her sacred spirit, 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:57.919 often pondered they the words involved in such obscurity, repeating 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:03.120 oft and thus Eucalian two Epimetheus's daughter uttered speech of 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:07.640 soothing import oracles are just and urge not evil deeds 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:11.520 or not avails the skill of thought. Our mother is 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:15.240 the earth, and I may judge the stones of earth 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.520 are bones that we should cast behind us as we go. 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:23.960 Oh okay, so some textual interpretation coming in here. 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.760 All right, So basically the world is ended. They've come 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:29.880 to the oracle the and they say, Oracle, what should 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.679 we do? Oracle says, you need a take your robe 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:35.240 off and throw your mother's bones around as you go 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:36.080 behind you. 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:40.479 Right, But Pira doesn't like this, So yeah, I think 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:43.159 if I'm interpreting this right, when they're saying oracle here, 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:46.480 they're talking about the goddess Themous speaking to them, because 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:49.680 I think this would not be a human oracle at 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.840 this point, right right, But yes, theamous, I think, or 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:55.159 whoever is speaking the oracle here, I guess it's famous 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:58.840 directly says yeah, take your mother's bones, throw you wear 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:01.839 your clothes loosely on gurge your robes, so kind of 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:05.440 just like you know, Saga robes around and throw your 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:07.919 mother's bones behind you. Pira is like, I'm not I 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:11.120 can't do that my mother's But that would be really impious, 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:15.600 and I'm especially pious. But Deucalian has the solution. No, no, no, 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:19.000 this doesn't mean your mother's bones. It's a metaphor. Our 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:21.840 mother is the earth, and the bones of the earth 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:22.720 are stones. 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:26.720 Makes sense, Okay, the oracle could have been a little 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:28.800 more clear from the get go on that, but fair 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:30.200 enough agree. 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:33.840 So the poem goes on. And although Pira, by his words, 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:37.920 was moved, she hesitated to comply, and both amazed doubted 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:41.040 the purpose of the oracle, but deemed no harm to 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:45.239 come of trial. They descended from the temple, veiled their heads, 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:49.240 and loosened their robes, and threw some stones behind them. 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:53.239 It is much beyond belief. We're not receding ages. Witness 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:58.560 hard and rigid stones assumed a softer form, enlarging is 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:02.559 their brittle nature, chain to milder substance, till the shape 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:07.720 of man appeared, imperfect, faintly outlined first as marble statue, 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:11.880 chiseled in the rough. The soft, moist parts were changed 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:15.640 to softer flesh, the hard and brittle substance into bones. 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:20.280 The veins retained their ancient name, and now the god 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:24.680 Supreme ordained that every stone Deucalian through should take the 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:29.239 form of man, and those by puricast should woman's form assume. 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:33.680 So are we hardy to endure and prove by toil 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:37.600 and deeds from what we sprung? So they do it, 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:40.520 they throw the stones, and what do you know? It works. 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.440 All the stones puri throes become women, all the stones 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:48.040 Deucalian throws become men. And I like the moral here, 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:51.000 The fact that the new generation of humans, I guess 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:54.880 the present one surviving emerged from stones in this telling, 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:58.400 is why humans are so rough and ready. Like, humans 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:01.439 can get things done, they can do hard work, they 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:03.800 can really take a beating and keep on going. 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:05.359 Interesting. 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:08.720 Yeah, And I think there might be some kind of 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:14.840 interesting evolutionary prescients in this story about the present generation 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:18.880 of humans arising from an act of throwing stones, because 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.240 I think you could make the argument that throwing stones 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:27.120 or throwing items fashioned out of stone is an early 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:33.199 human technological advancement that is pivotal in the arising regime 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:37.920 of technologies and behaviors associated with those technologies that create 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:38.800 human culture. 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:42.679 Yeah. Absolutely, I hate to keep going back to the 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:47.400 introduction to two thousand and one a Space Odyssey, but 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:49.240 we have discussed it a lot, and we've actually had 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:52.720 an expert on the show to discuss it with us before. 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:58.120 But yeah, I mean, even in that presentation, we see 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:02.440 the idea that yes, the use of tools as a 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:06.440 melee application, but also arranged application, and our ability to 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:12.560 throw things at threats, perceived threats other individuals, either as 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:16.400 a direct weapon or as a communication of intent, is 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:20.640 an important part of human technology and the advent of 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:21.600 human technology. 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:26.160 But while some of the most notable examples of non 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:29.880 human animals throwing are found in primates, Rob, I think 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:33.480 you wanted to get us started today by talking about elephants, right. 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.400 Yeah, Yeah, Elephants were one that jumped out at me 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:40.439 because I you know, I'm fascinated by elephants, but I 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.680 hadn't really read much about their ability to throw things, 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:48.240 so I dove into this a good bit. Now I 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.720 want to advise everyone that I am going to get 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:53.640 a little bit into the history of war elephants in this. 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:56.480 I'm going to try not to dwell on any of 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:00.600 you know, the gory details, but war is inherently cruel 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:06.120 and monstrous, and warfare involving animals is also cruel and 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:10.600 monstrous and at the same time fascinating. So yeah, I 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:12.880 realized I'm something of a hypocrite on this myself, and 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.520 that I spend a certain part of every day horrified 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:20.440 and fearful of warfare. And yet, you know, ancient warfare 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:22.920 is a fascinating topic that I keep coming back to 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:27.080 and actually find peace in studying and reading about and 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.000 then covering on the podcast. 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:31.680 So there you go, Well, please tell me more. 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:45.000 So, Elephants have long been reported to throw things. They've 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:48.800 been seen to throw rocks at other animals. There's even 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:52.199 at least one case and when an elephant was able 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.520 to fatally hit a human in a zoo environment. This 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.440 was in Morocco back in twenty sixteen. You can look 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:01.200 up news reports on this if you want to see more. 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:04.320 But even in the wild, there are some there's some 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:07.880 impressive footage that you'll find online of say, I think 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:11.160 there's one of a of an elephant in Africa throwing 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:15.200 a rock in the direction of a rhinoceros near a 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.880 waterhole environment, you know, where there's a lot of interspecies 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:24.640 interaction and standoffs. There's also footage I was looking at 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:27.680 of an elephant. Again, this was an African elephant throwing 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:31.840 a branch at a at a at a tourist who 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:34.800 is out in a jeep to observe the elephants, and 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:38.079 the elephant is essentially, i guess, saying I don't really 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:40.920 want to be observed right now. Here have the branch 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:45.080 of a small tree. So they definitely can throw things 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:47.640 when they want to throw things, and you can certainly 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:50.840 break down a lot of why they're throwing things. You know, 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:55.600 there are as a communications as an actual actual attack, 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:59.160 you know, some sort of expression of aggression. A lot 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:02.040 of what we talked about guarding the octopus is very 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:03.680 much in play here now. 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.120 In trying to picture this act of throwing, I'm assuming 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:09.960 that it is done with the trunk generally. 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:14.160 Yes, yeah, definitely the trunk and all of this really 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:16.959 anytime we're in talking about elephants throwing things. This is 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:21.080 all just a subset of a larger study of elephant 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.480 tool use that's been going on for quite some time, 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:29.360 in multiple studies, multiple observations. There's a lot of interesting 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.640 data out there concerning not only aggressive use of branches 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:36.080 and rocks wielded or thrown, but also the use of 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:41.240 sticks or branches in grooming, thermal regulation, and fly swatting, 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:44.440 something that Charles Darwin apparently commented upon as well. 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.120 Fly swatting interesting. 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:50.160 Yeah, yeah, so there are other things too, like the 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:53.400 manipulation of branches to weigh down fences so as to 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:57.800 cross over them. And sometimes there may be examples two 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:02.520 of them retaining certain sticks for use as a tool, 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:06.000 so you know, not sticking in their pocket or anything, 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:10.640 but the behavior that seems to indicate that once a 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:14.240 stick is useful, they may hang on to it for 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:16.800 at least a little bit in order to keep using it. 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:19.400 So it's not just it's not like this kind of 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:21.720 random interaction like, oh, there happens to be a stick 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:22.320 in my truck. 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.800 Well, I can sympathize with that, because when I find 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:28.080 a good stick, you know, not all sticks are equal, 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:31.240 that some sticks are way better than others, and when 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:32.760 you find a good stick, you kind of don't want 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:34.280 to let it go. Oh yes. 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:38.560 One especially sees this in children on walks. Once they 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.000 find a good stick, they absolutely don't want to put 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:42.840 it away, even if they keep almost hitting people in 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:45.520 the face with it. So anyway, as far as elephants go, though. 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.200 One of the more interesting ideas out there, however, is 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:52.760 that tool use in elephants emerges primarily to contend with 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:59.320 thermoregulation and parasites, basically parasite control. Both of these are 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.880 important because the elephant, of course, basically has no hair, 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:06.680 so it's a furless creature, and we tend to think 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:10.720 of elephant's skin as as thick and hard and sufficient 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.840 protection against flies, but this isn't quite the case. Pain 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:18.000 and blood loss from flies seems to be sufficient to 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:22.080 provide for the natural selection of swatter usage. So being 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:24.600 able to pick up a stick, small branch, et cetera, 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.680 and using that with the trunk to swat away these 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:32.640 troublesome insects that again are messing with the expansive skin 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:35.120 of the elephant that is far more sensitive than you 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:38.480 might give it credit. And the elephant has limited abilities 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.000 to show those flies it has the tail. It has 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.400 no expansive ears, of course, but mainly it's depending on 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:48.240 that trunk, and you can extend that trunk via tool use, 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:50.760 via a small branch or stick, and use that to 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:55.520 swat away the flies. Now, this is swatting, not throwing 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:58.040 the stick at flies. That I don't think really would 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:02.320 necessarily make sense to see anything about throwing as being 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:06.320 a direct part of either activity thermal regulation of their 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:10.560 expansive skin, or regulation of parasites. So I think it's 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:12.000 one of those things we might see as sort of 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:14.120 a side skill of all that, an add on skill 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:19.720 that comes via the evolution of this amazing trunk and 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:22.280 all the abilities of this trunk, as well as just 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:24.560 their ability to use tools. 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:29.200 Yeah, well, you can imagine throwing as at least possibly 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:32.840 on a continuum with the extended reach you get from 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:34.800 a tool. So you know, by picking up a stick 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.400 you in effect make your arm longer, you can hit 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:40.760 or reach it something farther away than you can with 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:43.720 your biological arm, and then if you could release that 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.520 stick at just the right time, could in fact go 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:47.240 even farther. 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:51.320 Yeah, so the basic ability here is not at all surprising. 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:55.240 The elephant trunk is a highly tactile proboscis composed of 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:58.720 some forty thousand muscles. That this is a frequently cided 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:02.200 number anyway, though I see some different figures out there. 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.199 But any way, you shake it, whatever the number happens 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.560 to be, it dwarfs the some six hundred and fifty 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:09.840 muscles in the human body. 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:12.200 Well, maybe just because I have them on the brain, 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:15.399 But I almost want to compare the elephant's trunk to 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:16.480 an octopus's arm. 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:19.040 Yeah, yeah, I mean I think there's a lot to 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:22.520 compare there, just in terms of how much ability there 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:25.720 is for the trunk to move around. 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:28.600 Well, I think I'm also thinking about that because there 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:32.320 are no bones within the trunk, so like our arms 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:35.840 and fingers have bones in them that make them rigid 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:40.720 along such certain axes of motion, whereas the elephant's trunk 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.399 has no bones at all. It's a mass of like 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.920 muscles and fat, so it has a kind of almost 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:50.320 octopus like. I mean, not truly, not truly octopus like, 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:54.439 but more in the octopusy direction, in a range of 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:56.240 motion and kind of floppiness. 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:59.680 Yeah. Absolutely. One of the papers I was looking at 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:05.000 for this section is from Scott L. Hooper in twenty 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:07.800 twenty one edition of Current Biology of Papers titled Motor 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.600 Control Elephant trunks Ignore the many and choose the few. 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:13.800 In this Hooper rights quote, the elephant trunk is a 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:18.440 muscular hydrostat with essentially infinite freedom of movement. Now, the 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.480 paper itself here, as the title suggests, explores how the 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:25.280 elephant focuses on certain ways of moving the trunk to 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:28.800 achieve various objectives. Again, this is interesting because, unlike with 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.080 something like the human arm, the possible movements are far 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:34.280 less restricted. Like you say, it's not like an arm 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.359 where you have. Yes, the human arm is amazing in 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:39.760 what it can do and the range of motion that 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:44.080 it has, but still there are limitations in place, just 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:48.200 based on how it is constructed the bones, the ligaments, etc. 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.119 Like you can't bend your forearm in the middle of 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:55.200 your forearm, or you can't build bend your elbow backwards. Right. 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:57.520 It would be interesting to see a list like all 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:01.800 the possible ways you might move your arm in all 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:05.480 of the the small differences, all the different ways you 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:10.119 might scratch your nose. However, many methods you come up with, 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:13.800 however many movements you're able to decipher the elephant and 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:17.000 that it is just is going to have you beat 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:19.120 every day, like there are just so many more ways 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:23.240 for it to potentially move its trunk. Right, And this 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.160 is really interesting and the paper the author points out 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:29.920 that when control for body and brain size, elephant cerebellums 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:33.440 are physically much larger than expected, and that ninety seven 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:36.280 point five percent of elephant brain neurons are in the 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:40.000 cell cerebellum. This is a part of the brain that is, 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.080 among other things, associated with fine motor control and movement 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:46.199 error correction. So they point out that quote. It is 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:50.280 tempting to hypothesize that this extreme hypertrophy is due to 0:19:50.359 --> 0:20:03.880 the greatly increased motor control challenges a muscular hydrostatic trunk poses. 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:07.560 So anyway, in general, though, there's a great deal that 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:10.359 an elephant can do with its trunk, and many things 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.399 that it does far more often with said trunk. But 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:17.359 throwing behavior again has been observed. They're perfectly capable of 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:23.240 throwing branches, rocks, and in cases of hostile interaction, yes, 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:24.919 other organisms including people. 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:25.880 Oh. 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:28.520 One question that ended up coming up for me though, 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:33.040 is can they throw arrows? And I hadn't thought about 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:36.399 this there's but I ran across this interesting passage in 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:38.720 Plenty of the Elders the Natural History. So if you 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:40.760 have your stuff to blow your mind, Plenty of the 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:43.880 Elder punch card, please go ahead and put another star 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:47.720 punch through there. And you're one star closer to your 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:51.760 gigantic HOGI. So I'm going to read from Plenty here 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:55.359 quote and just as a reminder, plenty of course first 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:58.480 century see Roman author that we've discussed many times on 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:02.480 the show. So, the first harnessed elephants that were seen 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:06.320 at Rome were in the triumph of Pompeius Magnus over Africa, 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:08.960 when they drew his chariot, a thing that is said 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:12.280 to have been done long before at the triumph of 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:17.080 Father liber on the conquest of India. Procilius says that 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:20.720 those which were used at the triumph of Pompeius were 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:23.879 unable to go in harness through the gate of the city. 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:28.480 In the exhibition of gladiators, which was given by Germanicus, 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:31.480 the elephants performed a sort of dance. With their uncouth 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:34.480 and irregular movements. It was a common thing to see 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:37.879 them throw arrows with such strength that the wind was 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:41.600 unable to turn them from their course, to imitate among 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:45.120 themselves the combats of the gladiators, and to frolic through 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:49.119 the steps of pyrrhic dance. After this, too, they walked 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:51.679 upon the tight rope, and four of them would carry 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:56.080 a litter in which lay a fifth, meaning a fifth elephant, 0:21:56.320 --> 0:22:00.520 which represented a woman lying in They afterwards took place, 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:03.520 and so nicely did they manage their steps that they 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:05.760 did not so much as touch any of those who 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:06.560 were drinking there. 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:10.159 Huh. So I have a kind of mixed reaction to that. 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:13.199 On one hand, I think it's quite clear from you know, 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:16.240 modern examples that elephants can be trained to do all 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:19.600 kinds of interesting things. They are intelligent animals, and they 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:24.600 have a very adroit manipulation ability through their trunk. And 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:27.359 yet I feel kind of doubtful when it says this 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:30.240 thing about the arrows, that they are able to throw 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:33.560 the arrows with such strength that the wind was unable 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:38.040 to turn them from their course. I guess I'm imagining 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:40.840 from that statement, though it doesn't directly say this, that 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:43.840 it's like throwing arrows as if into a target, so 0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:46.840 actually aimed so that they go tip first and hit 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:50.080 something even when the wind is blowing. I don't know 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:53.119 Plenty doesn't actually say that, but that I would assume 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:54.880 that's what he means. Yeah. 0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:57.160 Yeah, I wasn't sure how to take the wind thing either, 0:22:57.200 --> 0:22:59.439 if that's if that's something that we should focus on 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:02.320 or if perhaps you know something lost in translation here 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:03.920 and through the ages, that this is just kind of 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:09.480 a standard way of describing an arrow being fired with precision. 0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:11.679 You know, yeah, well, I guess it's the precision. I 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:14.360 wonder about, like, if he's just saying that that like 0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:19.280 they can throw arrows, sure, I guess that doesn't seem controversial, 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:21.760