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Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're bringing you an episode

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Speaker 2: from the vault today. This is part two in our

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Speaker 2: series on throwing behavior in non human animals. This originally

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Speaker 2: published January fourth, twenty twenty three. Hope you enjoy.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert.

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Speaker 2: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part

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Speaker 2: two of our series on throwing behavior in animals. Now.

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Speaker 2: In the previous episode, we focused almost exclusively on allegations

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Speaker 2: from a paper published toward the end of last year

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two about octopuses throwing stuff, or at

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Speaker 2: least appearing to throw stuff deliberately at one another, often

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Speaker 2: not just stuff, as in like hard singular objects, but

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Speaker 2: like fistfuls of sand, just trying to throw the silt

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Speaker 2: right in each other's eyes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that was a lot of fun. Ocopus is

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Speaker 1: playing dirty.

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Speaker 2: But I had been looking around to try to find

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Speaker 2: a good ancient myth or story that's centered on the

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Speaker 2: act of throwing because it just seemed like there would

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Speaker 2: be such a thing, right, like a throwing contest between

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Speaker 2: the gods or something like that. And I think this

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Speaker 2: must have been a common set piece since time immemorial.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure there are examples like that, but I couldn't

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Speaker 2: find a good one for today. However, I did want

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Speaker 2: to talk about a myth that draws an interesting connection

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Speaker 2: between an act of throwing and the origin of humankind,

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Speaker 2: or at least the present lineage of humankind, and that

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Speaker 2: is the Greek myth of Deucalion and Pyrah.

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Speaker 1: Now, this one's not ringing a bell for me. I

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Speaker 1: have my son where around I could perhaps he knows

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Speaker 1: this one, But yeah, this is not one that that

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Speaker 1: that instantly springs into my head.

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Speaker 2: Well settle in. It's a good story. So the version

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Speaker 2: of the story I'm going to reference is the one

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Speaker 2: told in Avid's Metamorphoses. So this is going to include

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Speaker 2: some some Roman flare on the on the Greek myth. Avid,

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Speaker 2: of course, was a first century BCE Roman poet, and

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Speaker 2: this is from his Metamorphoses book one, translated by Brooks Moore. Now,

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Speaker 2: the context of the of the story is that it's

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Speaker 2: sort of the Greek or Roman version of the Great

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Speaker 2: Flood story that we know from from other ancient texts

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Speaker 2: that we know from the Hebrew Bible, that we know

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Speaker 2: from the from the Epic of Gilgamesh and so forth.

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Speaker 2: So in this version, after the primordial ages and the

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Speaker 2: origin of the gods and the giants and humankind, the

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Speaker 2: gods look down on Earth and they're like, it stinks

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Speaker 2: human humans are awful discussing evil. There's a particular incident

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Speaker 2: that really makes the gods upset where this vile king

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Speaker 2: like Chaon, tries to make Zeus in the gods do

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Speaker 2: cannibalism to test their omnission. So he kills his own son,

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Speaker 2: cooks him and tries to serve him to Zeus to see, like,

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Speaker 2: is Zeus gonna know that this is my son? Hilarious?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely remember, like Chaon, we talked about him before.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, he has come up. So Zeus or Jupiter

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Speaker 2: decides he's going to destroy the world with a great flood,

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Speaker 2: and he does. It's brutal. Apparently only two humans are

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Speaker 2: saved from the flood, and they are from the region

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Speaker 2: of Focis. They are a pious married couple named Deucalion

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Speaker 2: who is the son of Prometheus, and Pira, who is

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Speaker 2: the daughter of Epimetheus. Now they survive the deluge, I think,

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Speaker 2: on a little boat, and they end up beached on

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Speaker 2: a mountaintop. It might be the top of Mount Parnassis,

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Speaker 2: but anyway, they end up stranded up on a mountain.

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Speaker 2: The floodwaters recede, so they survive. But the rest of

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Speaker 2: humanity's been destroyed. So what are they going to do now?

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Speaker 2: Now they're all alone, And because they are a pious couple,

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Speaker 2: they decide they should ask the gods for help. So

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Speaker 2: here I'm going to start reading from the Brooksmore translation

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Speaker 2: of Avid. And after he had spoken, they resolved to

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Speaker 2: ask the aid of sacred oracles. And so they hastened

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Speaker 2: to Keffesian waves, which rolled a turbid flood in channels

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Speaker 2: known thence. When their robes and brows were sprinkled well,

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Speaker 2: they turned their footsteps to the Goddess Fane. Its gables

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Speaker 2: were befouled with reeking moss, and on its altars every

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Speaker 2: fire was cold. But when the twain had reached the

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Speaker 2: temple steps, they fell upon the earth, inspired with awe,

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Speaker 2: and kissed the cold stone with their trembling lips and said,

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Speaker 2: if righteous prayers appease the gods, and if the wrath

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Speaker 2: of high celestial powers may thus be turned, declare Othamus,

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Speaker 2: whence what the art may raise humanity? Oh, gentle Goddess,

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Speaker 2: help the dying world. Okay, So they turned to the

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Speaker 2: gods for help. They go to the temple of Thamus.

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Speaker 2: Of course, all the fires have gone out because it's

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Speaker 2: been flooding, and it's covered with reeking moss, so the

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Speaker 2: temples even nasty now. But still they're going to kneel

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Speaker 2: down and kiss the stones of the temple to show

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Speaker 2: how holy they are. And they ask Thamus for help,

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Speaker 2: and Thamus replies, So the poem goes on. Moved by

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Speaker 2: their supplications, she replied, depart from me and veil your brows,

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Speaker 2: ungourge your robes, and cast behind you as you go

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Speaker 2: the bones of your great mother. Long they stood in

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Speaker 2: dumb amazement. Pira. First a voice refused the mandate, and

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Speaker 2: with trembling lips implored the goddess to forgive. She feared

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Speaker 2: to violate her mother's bones and vex her sacred spirit,

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Speaker 2: often pondered they the words involved in such obscurity, repeating

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Speaker 2: oft and thus Eucalian two Epimetheus's daughter uttered speech of

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Speaker 2: soothing import oracles are just and urge not evil deeds

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Speaker 2: or not avails the skill of thought. Our mother is

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Speaker 2: the earth, and I may judge the stones of earth

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Speaker 2: are bones that we should cast behind us as we go.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, so some textual interpretation coming in here.

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Speaker 1: All right, So basically the world is ended. They've come

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Speaker 1: to the oracle the and they say, Oracle, what should

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Speaker 1: we do? Oracle says, you need a take your robe

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Speaker 1: off and throw your mother's bones around as you go

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Speaker 1: behind you.

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Speaker 2: Right, But Pira doesn't like this, So yeah, I think

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Speaker 2: if I'm interpreting this right, when they're saying oracle here,

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Speaker 2: they're talking about the goddess Themous speaking to them, because

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Speaker 2: I think this would not be a human oracle at

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Speaker 2: this point, right right, But yes, theamous, I think, or

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Speaker 2: whoever is speaking the oracle here, I guess it's famous

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Speaker 2: directly says yeah, take your mother's bones, throw you wear

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Speaker 2: your clothes loosely on gurge your robes, so kind of

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Speaker 2: just like you know, Saga robes around and throw your

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Speaker 2: mother's bones behind you. Pira is like, I'm not I

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Speaker 2: can't do that my mother's But that would be really impious,

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Speaker 2: and I'm especially pious. But Deucalian has the solution. No, no, no,

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Speaker 2: this doesn't mean your mother's bones. It's a metaphor. Our

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Speaker 2: mother is the earth, and the bones of the earth

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Speaker 2: are stones.

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Speaker 1: Makes sense, Okay, the oracle could have been a little

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Speaker 1: more clear from the get go on that, but fair

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Speaker 1: enough agree.

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Speaker 2: So the poem goes on. And although Pira, by his words,

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Speaker 2: was moved, she hesitated to comply, and both amazed doubted

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Speaker 2: the purpose of the oracle, but deemed no harm to

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Speaker 2: come of trial. They descended from the temple, veiled their heads,

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Speaker 2: and loosened their robes, and threw some stones behind them.

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Speaker 2: It is much beyond belief. We're not receding ages. Witness

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Speaker 2: hard and rigid stones assumed a softer form, enlarging is

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Speaker 2: their brittle nature, chain to milder substance, till the shape

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Speaker 2: of man appeared, imperfect, faintly outlined first as marble statue,

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Speaker 2: chiseled in the rough. The soft, moist parts were changed

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Speaker 2: to softer flesh, the hard and brittle substance into bones.

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Speaker 2: The veins retained their ancient name, and now the god

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Speaker 2: Supreme ordained that every stone Deucalian through should take the

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Speaker 2: form of man, and those by puricast should woman's form assume.

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Speaker 2: So are we hardy to endure and prove by toil

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Speaker 2: and deeds from what we sprung? So they do it,

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Speaker 2: they throw the stones, and what do you know? It works.

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Speaker 2: All the stones puri throes become women, all the stones

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Speaker 2: Deucalian throws become men. And I like the moral here,

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Speaker 2: The fact that the new generation of humans, I guess

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Speaker 2: the present one surviving emerged from stones in this telling,

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Speaker 2: is why humans are so rough and ready. Like, humans

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Speaker 2: can get things done, they can do hard work, they

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Speaker 2: can really take a beating and keep on going.

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Speaker 1: Interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think there might be some kind of

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Speaker 2: interesting evolutionary prescients in this story about the present generation

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Speaker 2: of humans arising from an act of throwing stones, because

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Speaker 2: I think you could make the argument that throwing stones

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Speaker 2: or throwing items fashioned out of stone is an early

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Speaker 2: human technological advancement that is pivotal in the arising regime

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Speaker 2: of technologies and behaviors associated with those technologies that create

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Speaker 2: human culture.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I hate to keep going back to the

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Speaker 1: introduction to two thousand and one a Space Odyssey, but

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Speaker 1: we have discussed it a lot, and we've actually had

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Speaker 1: an expert on the show to discuss it with us before.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, even in that presentation, we see

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Speaker 1: the idea that yes, the use of tools as a

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Speaker 1: melee application, but also arranged application, and our ability to

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Speaker 1: throw things at threats, perceived threats other individuals, either as

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Speaker 1: a direct weapon or as a communication of intent, is

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Speaker 1: an important part of human technology and the advent of

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Speaker 1: human technology.

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Speaker 2: But while some of the most notable examples of non

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Speaker 2: human animals throwing are found in primates, Rob, I think

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Speaker 2: you wanted to get us started today by talking about elephants, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, Elephants were one that jumped out at me

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Speaker 1: because I you know, I'm fascinated by elephants, but I

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Speaker 1: hadn't really read much about their ability to throw things,

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Speaker 1: so I dove into this a good bit. Now I

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Speaker 1: want to advise everyone that I am going to get

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Speaker 1: a little bit into the history of war elephants in this.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to try not to dwell on any of

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Speaker 1: you know, the gory details, but war is inherently cruel

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Speaker 1: and monstrous, and warfare involving animals is also cruel and

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Speaker 1: monstrous and at the same time fascinating. So yeah, I

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Speaker 1: realized I'm something of a hypocrite on this myself, and

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Speaker 1: that I spend a certain part of every day horrified

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Speaker 1: and fearful of warfare. And yet, you know, ancient warfare

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Speaker 1: is a fascinating topic that I keep coming back to

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Speaker 1: and actually find peace in studying and reading about and

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Speaker 1: then covering on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: So there you go, Well, please tell me more.

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Speaker 1: So, Elephants have long been reported to throw things. They've

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Speaker 1: been seen to throw rocks at other animals. There's even

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Speaker 1: at least one case and when an elephant was able

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Speaker 1: to fatally hit a human in a zoo environment. This

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Speaker 1: was in Morocco back in twenty sixteen. You can look

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Speaker 1: up news reports on this if you want to see more.

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Speaker 1: But even in the wild, there are some there's some

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Speaker 1: impressive footage that you'll find online of say, I think

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Speaker 1: there's one of a of an elephant in Africa throwing

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Speaker 1: a rock in the direction of a rhinoceros near a

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Speaker 1: waterhole environment, you know, where there's a lot of interspecies

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Speaker 1: interaction and standoffs. There's also footage I was looking at

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Speaker 1: of an elephant. Again, this was an African elephant throwing

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Speaker 1: a branch at a at a at a tourist who

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Speaker 1: is out in a jeep to observe the elephants, and

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Speaker 1: the elephant is essentially, i guess, saying I don't really

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Speaker 1: want to be observed right now. Here have the branch

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Speaker 1: of a small tree. So they definitely can throw things

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Speaker 1: when they want to throw things, and you can certainly

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Speaker 1: break down a lot of why they're throwing things. You know,

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Speaker 1: there are as a communications as an actual actual attack,

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Speaker 1: you know, some sort of expression of aggression. A lot

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Speaker 1: of what we talked about guarding the octopus is very

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Speaker 1: much in play here now.

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Speaker 2: In trying to picture this act of throwing, I'm assuming

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Speaker 2: that it is done with the trunk generally.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, definitely the trunk and all of this really

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Speaker 1: anytime we're in talking about elephants throwing things. This is

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Speaker 1: all just a subset of a larger study of elephant

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Speaker 1: tool use that's been going on for quite some time,

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Speaker 1: in multiple studies, multiple observations. There's a lot of interesting

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Speaker 1: data out there concerning not only aggressive use of branches

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Speaker 1: and rocks wielded or thrown, but also the use of

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Speaker 1: sticks or branches in grooming, thermal regulation, and fly swatting,

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Speaker 1: something that Charles Darwin apparently commented upon as well.

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Speaker 2: Fly swatting interesting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so there are other things too, like the

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Speaker 1: manipulation of branches to weigh down fences so as to

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Speaker 1: cross over them. And sometimes there may be examples two

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Speaker 1: of them retaining certain sticks for use as a tool,

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Speaker 1: so you know, not sticking in their pocket or anything,

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Speaker 1: but the behavior that seems to indicate that once a

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Speaker 1: stick is useful, they may hang on to it for

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Speaker 1: at least a little bit in order to keep using it.

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Speaker 1: So it's not just it's not like this kind of

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Speaker 1: random interaction like, oh, there happens to be a stick

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Speaker 1: in my truck.

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Speaker 2: Well, I can sympathize with that, because when I find

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Speaker 2: a good stick, you know, not all sticks are equal,

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Speaker 2: that some sticks are way better than others, and when

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Speaker 2: you find a good stick, you kind of don't want

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Speaker 2: to let it go. Oh yes.

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Speaker 1: One especially sees this in children on walks. Once they

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Speaker 1: find a good stick, they absolutely don't want to put

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Speaker 1: it away, even if they keep almost hitting people in

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Speaker 1: the face with it. So anyway, as far as elephants go, though.

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Speaker 1: One of the more interesting ideas out there, however, is

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Speaker 1: that tool use in elephants emerges primarily to contend with

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Speaker 1: thermoregulation and parasites, basically parasite control. Both of these are

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Speaker 1: important because the elephant, of course, basically has no hair,

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Speaker 1: so it's a furless creature, and we tend to think

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Speaker 1: of elephant's skin as as thick and hard and sufficient

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Speaker 1: protection against flies, but this isn't quite the case. Pain

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Speaker 1: and blood loss from flies seems to be sufficient to

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Speaker 1: provide for the natural selection of swatter usage. So being

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Speaker 1: able to pick up a stick, small branch, et cetera,

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Speaker 1: and using that with the trunk to swat away these

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Speaker 1: troublesome insects that again are messing with the expansive skin

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Speaker 1: of the elephant that is far more sensitive than you

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Speaker 1: might give it credit. And the elephant has limited abilities

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Speaker 1: to show those flies it has the tail. It has

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Speaker 1: no expansive ears, of course, but mainly it's depending on

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Speaker 1: that trunk, and you can extend that trunk via tool use,

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Speaker 1: via a small branch or stick, and use that to

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Speaker 1: swat away the flies. Now, this is swatting, not throwing

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Speaker 1: the stick at flies. That I don't think really would

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Speaker 1: necessarily make sense to see anything about throwing as being

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Speaker 1: a direct part of either activity thermal regulation of their

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Speaker 1: expansive skin, or regulation of parasites. So I think it's

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Speaker 1: one of those things we might see as sort of

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Speaker 1: a side skill of all that, an add on skill

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Speaker 1: that comes via the evolution of this amazing trunk and

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Speaker 1: all the abilities of this trunk, as well as just

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Speaker 1: their ability to use tools.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you can imagine throwing as at least possibly

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Speaker 2: on a continuum with the extended reach you get from

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Speaker 2: a tool. So you know, by picking up a stick

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Speaker 2: you in effect make your arm longer, you can hit

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Speaker 2: or reach it something farther away than you can with

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Speaker 2: your biological arm, and then if you could release that

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Speaker 2: stick at just the right time, could in fact go

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Speaker 2: even farther.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so the basic ability here is not at all surprising.

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Speaker 1: The elephant trunk is a highly tactile proboscis composed of

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Speaker 1: some forty thousand muscles. That this is a frequently cided

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Speaker 1: number anyway, though I see some different figures out there.

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Speaker 1: But any way, you shake it, whatever the number happens

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Speaker 1: to be, it dwarfs the some six hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: muscles in the human body.

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Speaker 2: Well, maybe just because I have them on the brain,

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Speaker 2: But I almost want to compare the elephant's trunk to

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Speaker 2: an octopus's arm.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think there's a lot to

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Speaker 1: compare there, just in terms of how much ability there

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Speaker 1: is for the trunk to move around.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think I'm also thinking about that because there

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Speaker 2: are no bones within the trunk, so like our arms

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Speaker 2: and fingers have bones in them that make them rigid

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Speaker 2: along such certain axes of motion, whereas the elephant's trunk

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Speaker 2: has no bones at all. It's a mass of like

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Speaker 2: muscles and fat, so it has a kind of almost

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Speaker 2: octopus like. I mean, not truly, not truly octopus like,

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Speaker 2: but more in the octopusy direction, in a range of

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Speaker 2: motion and kind of floppiness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. One of the papers I was looking at

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Speaker 1: for this section is from Scott L. Hooper in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one edition of Current Biology of Papers titled Motor

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Speaker 1: Control Elephant trunks Ignore the many and choose the few.

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Speaker 1: In this Hooper rights quote, the elephant trunk is a

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Speaker 1: muscular hydrostat with essentially infinite freedom of movement. Now, the

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Speaker 1: paper itself here, as the title suggests, explores how the

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Speaker 1: elephant focuses on certain ways of moving the trunk to

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Speaker 1: achieve various objectives. Again, this is interesting because, unlike with

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Speaker 1: something like the human arm, the possible movements are far

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Speaker 1: less restricted. Like you say, it's not like an arm

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Speaker 1: where you have. Yes, the human arm is amazing in

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Speaker 1: what it can do and the range of motion that

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Speaker 1: it has, but still there are limitations in place, just

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Speaker 1: based on how it is constructed the bones, the ligaments, etc.

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Speaker 2: Like you can't bend your forearm in the middle of

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Speaker 2: your forearm, or you can't build bend your elbow backwards. Right.

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Speaker 1: It would be interesting to see a list like all

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Speaker 1: the possible ways you might move your arm in all

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Speaker 1: of the the small differences, all the different ways you

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Speaker 1: might scratch your nose. However, many methods you come up with,

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Speaker 1: however many movements you're able to decipher the elephant and

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Speaker 1: that it is just is going to have you beat

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Speaker 1: every day, like there are just so many more ways

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Speaker 1: for it to potentially move its trunk. Right, And this

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Speaker 1: is really interesting and the paper the author points out

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Speaker 1: that when control for body and brain size, elephant cerebellums

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Speaker 1: are physically much larger than expected, and that ninety seven

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Speaker 1: point five percent of elephant brain neurons are in the

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Speaker 1: cell cerebellum. This is a part of the brain that is,

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Speaker 1: among other things, associated with fine motor control and movement

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Speaker 1: error correction. So they point out that quote. It is

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Speaker 1: tempting to hypothesize that this extreme hypertrophy is due to

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Speaker 1: the greatly increased motor control challenges a muscular hydrostatic trunk poses.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, in general, though, there's a great deal that

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Speaker 1: an elephant can do with its trunk, and many things

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Speaker 1: that it does far more often with said trunk. But

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Speaker 1: throwing behavior again has been observed. They're perfectly capable of

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Speaker 1: throwing branches, rocks, and in cases of hostile interaction, yes,

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Speaker 1: other organisms including people.

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Speaker 2: Oh.

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Speaker 1: One question that ended up coming up for me though,

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Speaker 1: is can they throw arrows? And I hadn't thought about

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Speaker 1: this there's but I ran across this interesting passage in

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Speaker 1: Plenty of the Elders the Natural History. So if you

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Speaker 1: have your stuff to blow your mind, Plenty of the

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Speaker 1: Elder punch card, please go ahead and put another star

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Speaker 1: punch through there. And you're one star closer to your

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Speaker 1: gigantic HOGI. So I'm going to read from Plenty here

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Speaker 1: quote and just as a reminder, plenty of course first

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Speaker 1: century see Roman author that we've discussed many times on

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Speaker 1: the show. So, the first harnessed elephants that were seen

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Speaker 1: at Rome were in the triumph of Pompeius Magnus over Africa,

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Speaker 1: when they drew his chariot, a thing that is said

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Speaker 1: to have been done long before at the triumph of

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Speaker 1: Father liber on the conquest of India. Procilius says that

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Speaker 1: those which were used at the triumph of Pompeius were

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Speaker 1: unable to go in harness through the gate of the city.

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Speaker 1: In the exhibition of gladiators, which was given by Germanicus,

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Speaker 1: the elephants performed a sort of dance. With their uncouth

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Speaker 1: and irregular movements. It was a common thing to see

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Speaker 1: them throw arrows with such strength that the wind was

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Speaker 1: unable to turn them from their course, to imitate among

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Speaker 1: themselves the combats of the gladiators, and to frolic through

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Speaker 1: the steps of pyrrhic dance. After this, too, they walked

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Speaker 1: upon the tight rope, and four of them would carry

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Speaker 1: a litter in which lay a fifth, meaning a fifth elephant,

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Speaker 1: which represented a woman lying in They afterwards took place,

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Speaker 1: and so nicely did they manage their steps that they

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Speaker 1: did not so much as touch any of those who

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Speaker 1: were drinking there.

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Speaker 2: Huh. So I have a kind of mixed reaction to that.

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Speaker 2: On one hand, I think it's quite clear from you know,

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Speaker 2: modern examples that elephants can be trained to do all

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Speaker 2: kinds of interesting things. They are intelligent animals, and they

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Speaker 2: have a very adroit manipulation ability through their trunk. And

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Speaker 2: yet I feel kind of doubtful when it says this

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Speaker 2: thing about the arrows, that they are able to throw

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Speaker 2: the arrows with such strength that the wind was unable

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Speaker 2: to turn them from their course. I guess I'm imagining

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Speaker 2: from that statement, though it doesn't directly say this, that

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Speaker 2: it's like throwing arrows as if into a target, so

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Speaker 2: actually aimed so that they go tip first and hit

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Speaker 2: something even when the wind is blowing. I don't know

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Speaker 2: Plenty doesn't actually say that, but that I would assume

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Speaker 2: that's what he means. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I wasn't sure how to take the wind thing either,

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Speaker 1: if that's if that's something that we should focus on

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Speaker 1: or if perhaps you know something lost in translation here

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Speaker 1: and through the ages, that this is just kind of

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Speaker 1: a standard way of describing an arrow being fired with precision.

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Speaker 2: You know, yeah, well, I guess it's the precision. I

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Speaker 2: wonder about, like, if he's just saying that that like

400
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Speaker 2: they can throw arrows, sure, I guess that doesn't seem controversial,

401
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Speaker 2: like they could throw sticks. If he's saying they could

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Speaker 2: throw the arrow with the kind of like point forward

403
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Speaker 2: precision that an archer can shoot an arrow, then I'm like, oh, whoa,

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Speaker 2: I don't know about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he makes them sound like they're natural sharpshooters. And granted,

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Speaker 1: most of this description is clearly describing elephants that have

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Speaker 1: been trained to perform for the amusement of humans, but

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Speaker 1: it's referencing combat. It's referencing war elephants as well. So

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Speaker 1: you know, part of me was wondering, it's like, did

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Speaker 1: did they actually train elephants to throw arrows? Did they

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Speaker 1: have any kind of combat initiative in mind? Here? Surely not?

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Speaker 1: And also wondering, just is this at all accurate? Can

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Speaker 1: elephants do this? And on that side of the issue here, indeed,

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Speaker 1: Asian elephants are still trained to throw darts at balloons

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Speaker 1: as a spectacle. This is again something that you can

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Speaker 1: look up multiple videos of online. I don't think there's

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Speaker 1: any trickery involved in these. It's just they have trained

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Speaker 1: the elephant, and the elephant we'll take a dart, fling

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Speaker 1: it with its trunk and hit a balloon that's affixed

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Speaker 1: to like a wooden board or something.

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Speaker 2: Hold on a second, I am I am taking a

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Speaker 2: moment to watch this video. Okay, I took a moment

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Speaker 2: to watch a video. I am simultaneously very impressed. And

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Speaker 2: it makes more sense now because at least in the

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Speaker 2: video you shared Rob the elephant dart throwing, it is

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Speaker 2: throwing a dart and hitting balloons and popping them. But

427
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Speaker 2: it is not a straight on line drive, you know,

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Speaker 2: like an archer would shoot an arrow. It's more of

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Speaker 2: a toss of a dart that happens to land point

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Speaker 2: first on the balloon and hit it right.

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Speaker 1: You know. Ethical concerns over training elephants for amusement aside. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty impressive and I think it certainly speaks to

433
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 1: the throwing ability of the elephants. Again, like you said,

434
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 1: the dart throwing here is very much in line with

435
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: other kind of throwing feats one sees from elephants, including

436
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 1: some of these these these incidents that have occurred in

437
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 1: the wild or sort of more or less in the wild.

438
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 2: Yeah.

439
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: Now, again, given the historical use of Asian elephants and warfare,

440
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: you might well wonder if this ability was ever exploited

441
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 1: for war, because, yes, war elephants were a part of

442
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: warfare and parts of the world they were typically used

443
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 1: though as powerful bulldozing steeds and shock weapons. They could

444
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: also serves as a sort of a weapons platform of sorts.

445
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 1: You know, you could have a place on top where

446
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: not only is the elephant rider present, but perhaps someone

447
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: brandishing a spear or a bow of some of some sort.

448
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: And in some cases, not only did you have additional

449
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: arms added to the elephant. And I should probably shouldn't

450
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: even say additional armor, just armor, because again you think

451
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: of the skin of the elephant as being this kind

452
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: of like natural armor, and you know, I think for

453
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 1: the most part, we're we're dealing with part of the

454
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: animal that's far more sensitive than we think. So yeah,

455
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 1: there are numerous examples that survive today of the sort

456
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 1: of armor that we placed on the elephants. Sometimes that

457
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,479
Speaker 1: armor would be augmented with spikes or blades, and there

458
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 1: were also special elephant's swords that could be affixed to

459
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 1: the tusks.

460
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 2: I apologize I can't remember where I read this, but

461
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 2: I know I've read at least one historian's opinion before

462
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 2: that elephants in ancient warfare would have been more useful

463
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 2: for psychological impact than they were for direct like, you know,

464
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 2: mechanical advantage on the battlefield, and that most of what

465
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 2: you could do with an elephant you could probably actually

466
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 2: do better with just cavalrymounted on horses.

467
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that lines up with a lot of what I've

468
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: been reading here. We should not think of the war

469
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: elephant as some sort of super weapon. It was a

470
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: specialized weapon, a specialized use of the elephant and rider

471
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: and various other weapons that needed support, needed just the

472
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: right situation to be useful. And yeah, so there are

473
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: a lot of ins and outs. You can't think of

474
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 1: it again as this thing that. Oh, once you introduce

475
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: war elephants to the game, you've got it. Won. One

476
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: of the books I was looking at here is a

477
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 1: book by John M. Kistler titled War elephants from two

478
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 1: thousand and six, and in this he mentions that some

479
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 1: sources mentioned blades affixed to trunk armor as well, though

480
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: I don't take that to mean I personally didn't take

481
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 1: that to mean that you would actually have some sort

482
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: of scenario where you would put a sword on the

483
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: trunk into an elephant's trunk. I think that would be

484
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 1: more like blades higher up on the armor that's kind

485
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: of protecting the front of the elephant's face. This is

486
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 1: a book that goes into depth on elephant warfare, probably

487
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: more than a lot of you really want to read.

488
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a very readable, very good book. But again,

489
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 1: war is cruelty, and elephant warfare is also just loaded

490
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: with cruelty. There are a lot of elephant deaths that

491
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: are described in this you know, it gets into not

492
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: only the gory particulars of waging war with elephants, but

493
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: also waging war against elephants. But there are certainly accounts

494
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 1: that are mentioned in this book of enemy soldiers being

495
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: crushed and thrown by the trunk of the elephant, and

496
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: in some cases throwing the horse as well. If it's

497
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: encountering like a man mounted on a horse. Now I

498
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: look through this book, I did not find any examples

499
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: of war elephants actually throwing projectiles as an offensive weapon tactic,

500
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: though it is mentioned that Scipio forced his elephants into

501
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: battle against Caesar's forces with rock slingers, So these would

502
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: have been human rock slingers marching behind the elf evhants,

503
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: pelting them with stones to get them to continue forward.

504
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: So this would have been I think forty six PCE.

505
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: So a lot of what you encounter with projectiles and

506
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: elephants are dealing with in this case, making the elephants

507
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: move forward into battle and all the grizzly realities that

508
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: wake them ahead. And then also you find plenty of

509
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: discussions of projectiles being used against elephants, such as specialized

510
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: like all metal arrows and so forth, darts, caltrops, and

511
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: other things that would be useful fire added to projectiles

512
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: as well that would be useful in combating elephants that

513
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: are used by your enemy. Kissler also brings up an

514
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: account from Plutarch's Life of Alexander fourth century BCE, in

515
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 1: which the Indian king Porus was said to ride a

516
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: war elephant that was so loyal that at one point,

517
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: it softly kneels down and begins to draw the enemy

518
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: darts out of the King's body so that he can

519
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: continue fighting. And Kissler in on this and says, quote,

520
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: such stories are not preposterous. Elephants do form intimate bonds

521
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: with their human riders and have been known to protect

522
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: their human friends and may even die of grief when

523
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: their partner is lost. Megas Thinny is a contemporary of

524
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: Alexander attest to both.

525
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 2: Wow.

526
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: However, this of course is not dark throwing, natural or otherwise,

527
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: And Kissler makes no mention of elephants being trained to

528
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: throw weapons. I think my take on this is, generally speaking,

529
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: human armies capable of using war elephants are going to

530
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: also have access to much better throwing projectile technology, such

531
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: as a bow used by a human, even a sling

532
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: used by a human, catapults and so forth. Using a

533
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: war elephant to throw a rock would just be a

534
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: misuse of the resource that you have there.

535
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is not what the elephants are best at.

536
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. And Kissler gets into this a little bit as well.

537
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: He's speaking directly about the sieges of Hannibal here, but

538
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: he says, you're talking about the limitations of the war

539
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: elephant quote. Elephants do not make good siege weapons, but

540
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: they do make excellent siege laborers. So again a situation

541
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: where at any given moment, an army that has elephants

542
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: is going to have to use them where they are

543
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: where they are most useful, be it as a shock

544
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: weapon or as just labor to help operate the other

545
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: weapons of war. So when it comes to lobbing projectiles

546
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: at your enemies, better I would imagine to have human

547
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: archers atop or near elephants to handle the ranged weaponry

548
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: and allow the elephants to do their thing, hopefully in

549
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: a matter in a manner that advances the front line

550
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: rather than recedes it. Because that's another thing you run into.

551
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: Like the use of the elephant on the battlefield, it

552
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: is there's kind of a contained chaos to it. You definitely,

553
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: if you are the one using the elephants, you want

554
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: them to keep going towards the enemy and not to

555
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 1: panic and turn back on your own forces. Still, there

556
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: are certainly many accounts of war elephants grabbing, crush throwing

557
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: human adversaries, sometimes off their mount and in some cases

558
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: inflicting such damage to the mount as well. Well.

559
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 2: This is interesting because it raises sort of a third

560
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: category of animal throwing behaviors that we didn't really get

561
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: to in the last episode. When we were talking about

562
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 2: that study on octopuses, we made the distinction between throwing

563
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: at and throwing away. So sometimes an octopus would quote

564
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 2: throw again to remind you, what the octopuses did was

565
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 2: not purely by like grasping something in the arm and

566
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 2: then rapidly extending the arm and releasing the object. They

567
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 2: would hold the object with their arms and then blast

568
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: the object with their funnel or siphon with a jet

569
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: of water to propel it through the water toward a target,

570
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 2: or at least allegedly toward a target. But the two

571
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: categories of throwing they talked about in this paper were

572
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: throwing at and throwing away. So throwing away is just

573
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 2: like you're trying to get something out of a certain place,

574
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 2: like cleaning out your den would be a throwing away behavior.

575
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 2: You're trying to get all of the scallop shells out

576
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 2: of there and make a clean place for you to

577
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 2: settle down. Or throwing at would be trying to hit

578
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 2: a target. Here, you could have I don't know what

579
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 2: this would be. If you're like grabbing an adversary and

580
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: throwing it, that's not really throwing at or throwing away.

581
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 2: The object of the throwing is the object you're throwing,

582
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 2: not an object you're trying to hit. But you're also

583
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 2: not just trying to get it out of your way,

584
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 2: you're trying to harm it by throwing it.

585
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think there's at least one account that the

586
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: kissler shares again from ancient riders, where someone is thrown

587
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: and then they hit a rock and it.

588
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 2: Like breaks their back.

589
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: But that's it's hard to really weigh in on that,

590
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: Like was the elephant in this case throwing the human

591
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: at the rock or did the elephant just throw this

592
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: human aside and they happened to land on a rock.

593
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 2: Right, I wasn't alleging, Yeah, I wasn't alleging that the

594
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: elephants knew what they were doing and that type of throwing. Yeah,

595
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 2: But I think we have one more example of an

596
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:02,719
Speaker 2: animal where that third category you might say, throwing into

597
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 2: where the main object of the throwing is what happens

598
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 2: to the object thrown, not the object it's thrown at,

599
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 2: and it's not just trying to get the object out

600
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 2: of your space. You're you're trying to act upon the

601
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 2: object by throwing it. And this comes up with the mongoose.

602
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: I was surprised by this. I don't really know much

603
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: about the mongoose, so I wasn't expecting it to be

604
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 1: a projectile tool user or a projectile. Maybe maybe tool

605
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: user is going a little too far. But a creature

606
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 1: capable of throwing.

607
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,399
Speaker 2: Objects, Yeah, yeah, I wonder would this kind of tool

608
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:39,919
Speaker 2: user or not. I don't know. We can talk about

609
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 2: the details and then see what every think.

610
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: There are different families of mongooses, about thirty four species

611
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: in total. They have strong rodent vibes. There's definitely a

612
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: rodent energy to them. If you're unfamiliar with them, you

613
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 1: having to see them. If you're happening to be in

614
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 1: a region where you have mongooses around, you might think, oh,

615
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: they're behaving much like rodents. They seem to be filling

616
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: that niche at the very least, But they're actually more

617
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 1: closely related to hyenas and fosses. They are carnivores and

618
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:22,280
Speaker 1: they're pretty opportunistics, so they feed on vertebrates. Invertebrates live

619
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: prey carry on. They're all about figuring out how to

620
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 1: go about getting their daily allotment of meat. What kind

621
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,919
Speaker 1: of puzzles do I need to solve to get my meat?

622
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: What do I need to crawl into to get my meat?

623
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: And this is the kind of area where often we

624
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: times we see this more with the omnivores, Like we

625
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 1: talked about the raccoon before, this creature that is savvy

626
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: and its ability to find these different forms of food,

627
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: And here we see it with the carnivorous mongoose now

628
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 1: as they're trying to get at the meat. Sometimes the

629
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: thing about your meat, Sometimes the meat is smeared on

630
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: the side of the road, or it's or it's nice

631
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: and soft and easy to tear into. But other times

632
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: you'll find that the meat that you desire as a

633
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,720
Speaker 1: mongoose is encased. This would be the case with something

634
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: like a millipede. There's gooey stuff on the inside that

635
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: you want to eat, but there's hard stuff on the outside.

636
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 1: Birds eggs are another example, hard on the outside, delicious

637
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 1: and liquidity in the middle. Beetles balls of dung are

638
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: also brought up in some of the sources I was

639
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: looking at because the ball of dung might have, for instance,

640
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: a beetle inside of it, and you want to get

641
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: at it. But on the outside you have perhaps this

642
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: hardened dung. So how are you going to get the

643
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: meat that is such so encased?

644
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 2: Well? A reference that comes up on this question is

645
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 2: a paper from nineteen sixty seven by Thomas Eisner and

646
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 2: Joseph A. Davis, a couple of biologists. I think one

647
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 2: was affiliated with Cornell University, and I think maybe another

648
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 2: with the Bronx Zoo. But the paper is called Mongoose

649
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: Throwing and Smashing Millipedes, published in the journal Science. I

650
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 2: actually had trouble finding the full text on this one,

651
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 2: but fortunately I was able to sort of piece it

652
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 2: together with some sections quoted in books and a blog

653
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 2: post I found summarizing it by an archaeologist and named

654
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 2: Michael Haslam. But the study looked at a relationship between

655
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 2: the mongoose and a genus of African millipedes called Spherrotherium spheerrotherorum.

656
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 2: You want to do the etymology on that? What does

657
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 2: that mean? Ball beast now compared to the tiny roly

658
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: pulleys or pillbugs that we're used to here in the

659
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:43,800
Speaker 2: southern United States. Rob These things, the Spheerrotherorium, are indeed beasts.

660
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 2: Some species are very large comparatively. I found a picture

661
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 2: of somebody holding one in their hand for scale, and

662
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 2: this one looks to be about the size of an

663
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 2: uncracked walnut. It's pretty big. They also have thick, tough

664
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 2: plates of armor compared to roly pullies or pillars. And

665
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 2: as a side note, I just wanted to mention that

666
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,359
Speaker 2: our familiar roly pollie here are actually not millipedes at all.

667
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 2: They are isopod crustaceans, terrestrial crustaceans that moved out of

668
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 2: the sea to colonize land millions of years ago.

669
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 1: Huh. I don't think I quite realized that way to go,

670
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: roly pollies.

671
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 2: But so Okay to this study, the authors were doing

672
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 2: some testing to see which predatory animals were able to

673
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 2: get the meat like you're talking about too, As Mick

674
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:33,720
Speaker 2: Jagger would say, get the meat to uncase the Spherrotherorium's

675
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 2: tough outer defenses and get at what's inside if it

676
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 2: balls up. Is this millipede basically invincible or can anybody

677
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 2: crack the nut? Now? In other parts of this study,

678
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: the Spherrotherorium in ball mode survived attacks by a colony

679
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 2: of harvester ants. They survived attacks by blue jays and

680
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 2: certain species of mice. But then, to read from the

681
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 2: author's observations quote, the expected occurred in tests with a

682
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 2: banded mongoose or mungos mungo. The predator responded instantly to

683
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: the glomerid, and that's referring to the millipede. Here the

684
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 2: glomerid sniffing it and rolling it about with the paws.

685
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 2: It seized it in the jaws, biting upon it with

686
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 2: sharp teeth, but the millipede was neither punctured nor crushed. Suddenly,

687
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 2: the millipede was dropped from the jaws and grasped with

688
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 2: the front paws. The mongoose, backed against a rocky ledge

689
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 2: in the cage, assumed a partially erect stance, and, with

690
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 2: emotion so quick as to be barely perceptible, hurled the

691
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 2: millipede backward between its legs, smashing it against the rocks.

692
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 2: Fatally injured, with its shell broken and its body torn apart,

693
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 2: the millipede was promptly eaten.

694
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: This is a great image. So, first of all, I

695
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 1: don't have an answer. For this question, but I do

696
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 1: wonder about how strong the bite of the the mongoose is,

697
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: like maybe they're there their bite strength isn't isn't as

698
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 1: powerful as as would be required to say, if you

699
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: were going to actually bite down on this millipede and

700
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: crunch it in your mouth. Or maybe it has to

701
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: do with the size of the millipede. I don't know.

702
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: I found some great images of a mongoose gnawing on

703
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: an egg trying to sort of get it's it's its

704
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 1: horrible little mouth around the egg, and I don't know.

705
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: It may in this case, perhaps the mongoose is able

706
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: to actually bite through that egg and crack it. Certainly

707
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: an egg is different than than a hardened large millipede,

708
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,439
Speaker 1: But like I say, they have been observed to take

709
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 1: eggs and strike them or throw them as well. So

710
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. My second question that came out because

711
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: I was looking some different sources, but I came across

712
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: similar descriptions and I was trying to picture it, and

713
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 1: I was like, am I picturing this right? Is this

714
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,800
Speaker 1: a granny shot? Is this is this like the granny

715
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 1: shot with the with the bat Well, I guess it's wait, no,

716
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: The granny shot is when you are use your arms

717
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 1: as a pendulum between your legs and throw the ball.

718
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: What is it called when you project the ball back

719
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: between your legs.

720
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 2: It's a reverse grandy shot. Okay shot, okay, But yes,

721
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 2: that's what's going on here. If you want to picture it.

722
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 2: The mongoose, the banded mongoose here is it's like sort

723
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 2: of standing with its legs apart and then picking up

724
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 2: the millipede with its four paws and then leaning over

725
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 2: and throwing the millipede backwards between its legs to smash

726
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 2: it against a rock behind it.

727
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: And you included for me a couple of wonderful illustrations

728
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: to drive home how this works.

729
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 2: I think these illustrations are actually from the original paper,

730
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 2: but they were included in that blog post I referenced

731
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 2: by Haslam.

732
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're quite amusing. We were talking before the recording

733
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: about the In the first shot, we see this mongoose

734
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: clearly thoughtful about its task, concentrating on what it's doing.

735
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: Millipede grasp between it's it's its pause rock behind it,

736
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: and then in the next picture, bam, it has thrown

737
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 1: the millipee. The millipede is in flight back between the

738
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: creature's legs, and he's just kind of looking at us,

739
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 1: the viewer.

740
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 2: This is occurring, Yeah, yeah, making sort of shameful eye

741
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 2: contact with the illustrator.

742
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: But even this, this this illustration also drives home that like,

743
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 1: this is a creature that has like a tail, it's

744
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 1: its legs are not nearly as long as human legs,

745
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: so it seems like a very It's a precision shot.

746
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 1: There's nothing like clumsy about this.

747
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 2: Well, I wonder why the throwing happens behind the animal

748
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 2: instead of in front of it. So, yeah, it has

749
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 2: to get past the legs and the tail to do this,

750
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 2: But since the behavior has evolved this way, there must

751
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 2: be an advantage to the to the rear word throwing, right,

752
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: Like maybe the animal can get more momentum throwing in

753
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 2: that direction than it could throwing forward. I'm not sure.

754
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 1: Well, what it reminds me of is digging behavior, and

755
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: the mongoose is certainly a creature that I imagine is

756
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 1: going to dig around for things. Maybe not actual burrowing behavior, perhaps,

757
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: but we're talking about scratching around in the dirt, going

758
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 1: after say millipedes, small bugs, et cetera. And you know

759
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: what is the We can sort of imagine the steps

760
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: between basic digging, throwing the dirt back between your rear legs,

761
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: and then launching small creatures backwards as well and making

762
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,760
Speaker 1: them hit a rock wall or something. M Yeah, okay,

763
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: basic mongoose technology either way, I guess.

764
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 2: Well. Anyway, so apparently for the banded mongoose, picking up

765
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 2: and throwing food is part of their normal behavior. This

766
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 2: wasn't just like a one off, weird thing that happened

767
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,439
Speaker 2: in this zoo environment. It is something that has been

768
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 2: observed in the wild, and it's part of a behavioral

769
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 2: repertoire that may in fact be passed on through a

770
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 2: kind of teaching and observation between older mongooses and younger ones,

771
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,720
Speaker 2: rather than strictly through inborn instinct.

772
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. Fascinating. I was looking around at for various videos

773
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 1: of this, and I did find a number of videos

774
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: showing them with different encased foods that do look more

775
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: like a striking as opposed to a throwing. But I

776
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: guess one can imagine that these would be sort of related, right,

777
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: especially if the striking if I'm remembering correctly from the

778
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 1: videos I was looking at some of the strikings are

779
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 1: kind of the same initial movement instead of launching the

780
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: encased food back between the legs, though bringing it down

781
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 1: straight onto the ground or onto some sort of rocky surface.

782
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 2: Good job, mongoose.

783
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it reminds me of the dropping techniques that

784
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: have been linked to other organisms that are capable of flight.

785
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 1: You know, if you have something like I think the

786
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: cases where lammergeyer may drop bones to shatter on rocks

787
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: far below, they're able to use a gravity assist on

788
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: that act. But if you're just a mongoose, well, you

789
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: don't have gravity like that. You can't very well soar

790
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: up into the sky and then drop it. You've got

791
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 1: to hurl it instead.

792
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. I also like that this In this case, the

793
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 2: animal is throwing the object behind them, just like deucalian

794
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 2: and pira.

795
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

796
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 2: I think there's that's where the comparison stops. Though I

797
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 2: don't see how the millipede really becomes the new generation

798
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:25,399
Speaker 2: of mongooses.

799
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: We just don't. We don't have much insight into the

800
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: religious lives of the mongoose.

801
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 2: It's true, all right, Well, I think that does it

802
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 2: for part two, but hey, should we continue looking at

803
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 2: animal throwing behaviors in a part three maybe.

804
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:41,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe, So I know there's there's certainly a lot

805
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: in the primate world, and we kind of skipped over

806
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: that because on one hand, primate's throwing things. That's it's

807
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 1: obviously on top of the various non human primate examples.

808
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 1: We know that, of course humans are are the greatest

809
00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:00,959
Speaker 1: throwers on Earth, but there but not to take away

810
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: from the primate world, they're the larger primemate world though,

811
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: because there are some amazing examples of the use of

812
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 1: project dials and the selection of project dials and even

813
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 1: the storing of project dials for later use. So there's

814
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: a lot of interesting stuff there that we get into.

815
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: We could also get into how it plays into human

816
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: evolution and so forth. So if listeners want more animals

817
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: throwing stuff, we can certainly put together some more episodes.

818
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: Oh and by the way, I wanted to mention this

819
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: this earlier, and I forgot but John M. Kissler, who

820
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: wrote the book on War Elephants, also wrote a historical

821
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: fiction novel titled Elephant Lord, set during the Second Punic War.

822
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:42,879
Speaker 1: I looked at this. I didn't pick it up yet,

823
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: but I saw that you can get it on Kindle

824
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 1: It looks pretty interesting. I was trying to ponder, like,

825
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: maybe this is a better way to get my to

826
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: scratch the itch of curiosity over all the details of

827
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 1: elephant warfare. Maybe if it's within a fictional shape, it'll

828
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: be kinder somehow. I don't know, all right, all right,

829
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 1: so we're closing it up there, but yeah, write in

830
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: let us know what you think. If you want to

831
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: hear more episodes about animals throwing stuff, be sure to

832
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 1: let us know. Perhaps you have examples from the animal

833
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 1: world that we didn't touch on that you'd like to

834
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: bring up. Perhaps you just have observations of elephants or

835
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 1: the mongoose that you would like to share. It doesn't

836
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: have to be directed directly related to throwing things, but

837
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 1: maybe you do have those experiences you would like to

838
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: point out to us. If so, write in, we'd love

839
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: to hear from you. Just a reminder that Stuff to

840
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind as a science podcast, with core episodes

841
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: publishing on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the Stuff to Blow

842
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 1: your Mind podcast feed on Mondays, we do listener mail.

843
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,560
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844
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: artifact episode, and on Fridays, we set aside most series

845
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: concerns and just talk about a weird film on Weird

846
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: House Cinema.

847
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,640
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848
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 2: would like to get in touch with us with feedback

849
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 2: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

850
00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:59,440
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851
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,320
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852
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:11,080
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853
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:14,040
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00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,919
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