Speaker 1: This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take care while listening,
Speaker 1: yet charges and consent to this recording call press one.
Speaker 1: Thank you for using Securius. You may start the conversation now, Hey,
Speaker 1: how are you? I'm good? How are you? I'm making
Speaker 1: it not good? It's been so long since he's so
Speaker 1: oh gosh, that was Spencer hern the real Spencer Herron
Speaker 1: on the phone from present. I'm Andrea Gunning and this
Speaker 1: is Betrayal, episode eight. Thank you for your time. Spencer
Speaker 1: was apprehensive about going on the record with Jennifer, citing
Speaker 1: concern for his family and publicity. However, he did agree
Speaker 1: to speak with Jennifer and he woke unrecorded line. They
Speaker 1: spoke for nearly an hour after not having talked to
Speaker 1: each other for more than two years. This was an
Speaker 1: important conversation for jen for her personally, but also to
Speaker 1: hear how we've used the situation four years later, and
Speaker 1: there was some curiosity. Has his incarceration changed his perspective
Speaker 1: and what does he plan to do when he's released.
Speaker 1: Hearer excerpts from their call. I just wanted to see
Speaker 1: if he's be willing to answer some questions. Well, it's
Speaker 1: the realization, Okay, since I know you're going to obviously
Speaker 1: you're going through with it, he says it. He is
Speaker 1: referring to this project, the podcast well you're listening to
Speaker 1: right now, the realization of and not being over for me,
Speaker 1: And it's hard enough trying to imagine the difficulties I'm
Speaker 1: going to face anyway, and then this seems just like
Speaker 1: another layer of it, and that freaked me out. Essentially,
Speaker 1: Spencer is concerned that making more people aware of a
Speaker 1: story will make post prison life more difficult for him.
Speaker 1: But I can't obviously keep you from doing what you
Speaker 1: need to do to feel better for yourself. Yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: I keep getting back to this, but I'm just so curious.
Speaker 1: Is to like what you think about that light you
Speaker 1: were living. The main thing I can say is that
Speaker 1: it had gotten so out of control that it was,
Speaker 1: I don't want to say living a life of its own,
Speaker 1: because obviously I was in control of it, but it
Speaker 1: had taken on the dominance in my life that I
Speaker 1: didn't see coming. You know, even with the warnings that
Speaker 1: I had, it obviously wasn't enough to stop everything. Warnings
Speaker 1: like Jennifer's friend's husband calling him. Spencer knew he could
Speaker 1: tell Jen at any time, right, But you say didn't
Speaker 1: see coming, but like it was happening before we got married. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's happening all those years before we got married. So
Speaker 1: knowing that you were like this, why get married? Well,
Speaker 1: that's the part that's going to be difficult for you
Speaker 1: to understand or believe. I didn't intended to keep going,
Speaker 1: but you never stop? Correct, So at what point did
Speaker 1: you intend for it not to continue? Oh? From the
Speaker 1: data we got back together, okay, But knowing it was
Speaker 1: continuing and that you didn't stop, why did you get married?
Speaker 1: The intentions were always on the positive side, but my
Speaker 1: actions would win over those intentions. The main thing is
Speaker 1: I'm going to explain is the ease of the way
Speaker 1: I found myself in those situations. I'm trying to use
Speaker 1: an analogy. Have you been to three different grocery stores
Speaker 1: even though you don't want to go shop there anymore,
Speaker 1: it's easier to go to those stores. You've already been
Speaker 1: to those stores. You're not looking for another store to
Speaker 1: go to. It's that store still open. What I'm just
Speaker 1: trying to say is that you know, once once you
Speaker 1: had been fooling around for so long, it's not like
Speaker 1: you got to figure out how am I going to
Speaker 1: fool around? I'm not sure how all those women would
Speaker 1: feel about the grocery store analogy. A few years earlier,
Speaker 1: in his letters like the ones we heard in episode seven,
Speaker 1: Spencer seemed to deny culpability by saying women just made
Speaker 1: themselves available to him. Had time changed the story? And
Speaker 1: one of the letters that you wrote me, you said
Speaker 1: that you never thought after Do you still feel that way? Well? Yes,
Speaker 1: in this I've got to answer this in two ways, yes,
Speaker 1: meaning that I was never on a long half that
Speaker 1: I chose to seek it out. It's just an opportunity
Speaker 1: with present itself, and then before I knew it, I
Speaker 1: was pursuing it. Probably not an answered it makes much sense. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it doesn't. With you. I have seen so much correspondence
Speaker 1: that I do feel like sought after it sought after
Speaker 1: it might include come by the wine bar. I'm single
Speaker 1: for the next few days. I understand that I would
Speaker 1: never argue that that's how you saw it. And I'm
Speaker 1: sure that no matter how much we talked, there's gonna
Speaker 1: be some things that will make sense. They don't make
Speaker 1: sense to me either, And I was the one involved in.
Speaker 1: As much as I want to make it better, No,
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a lot of things that aren't. And
Speaker 1: they're what I say. It's not gonna make it better. No, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: nothing will ever make it better, not after everything I've
Speaker 1: read and seen and the amount I'll never understand it.
Speaker 1: I am baffled at how you managed so many different
Speaker 1: people at the same time, like a year, two years,
Speaker 1: three year long affairs, multiple at a time. When you
Speaker 1: look back, do you think you might have a problem?
Speaker 1: And I'm not being facetious, Well, my opinion doesn't matter
Speaker 1: until I get out there. You can say you don't
Speaker 1: think you have a problem alcohol if you never have
Speaker 1: an alcohol around you. I'm dealing with guys who've been
Speaker 1: in for decades to the eyes that has just come
Speaker 1: in a year. You know, most of fat in the
Speaker 1: print system are females, and they're they're not going to women.
Speaker 1: You know. Don't mean to be mean, I mean, I
Speaker 1: just need to paint a picture for you, right, And
Speaker 1: these guys will go crazy. Guys in in the county jail,
Speaker 1: we're going crazy and masturbating publicly, masturbasing that still happens
Speaker 1: in here. Now, that's a problem. Maybe it's a different problems,
Speaker 1: but it's definitely what I don't have. Oh, I don't, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't care. The last time we talked, I think
Speaker 1: you felt is this. You were fine and cured and
Speaker 1: it has gone away. I still feel that way, but
Speaker 1: that's only how I feel. I don't know. No one
Speaker 1: knows what anything is going to be tomorrow. But the
Speaker 1: thing is, I guess you and I think of your
Speaker 1: situation differently because I look at what you were doing
Speaker 1: our entire marriage, from before and the entire every single
Speaker 1: day of our marriage, you look me in the eye
Speaker 1: and lied to me. There are probably days, and I
Speaker 1: hope to God not many, where you ended up having
Speaker 1: to sleep with me and another woman on the same day.
Speaker 1: You've brought women into our home. Your sense of betrayal
Speaker 1: is not a sense at all, and it is a
Speaker 1: very real thing, and I would expect you to deal
Speaker 1: with it no differently. Any same person would deal with
Speaker 1: it the way you're dealing with it, which is to
Speaker 1: be dumbfounded into be angry and everything else that you felt. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm never going to get words in your mouth or
Speaker 1: emotions in your in your personality, but all those things
Speaker 1: make sense. I couldn't skirt around that if I wanted to.
Speaker 1: Why would I want to? But do you not see
Speaker 1: and issue that might need some work. You got to
Speaker 1: the point where you were breaking the law, not to
Speaker 1: mention the disgustingness of it. Do you ever think about
Speaker 1: the victim? Yeah, of course, I'm sure. That's why I'm
Speaker 1: still here. No immediate expression of remorse. Rather, he thinks
Speaker 1: of the victim's impact on his parle. I'm not to
Speaker 1: my own horn. I just look at the facts. Anybody
Speaker 1: makes prole as somebody like me. I just don't want
Speaker 1: what to say. I mean, I guess good for her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're passengers that have been back three, four or five
Speaker 1: six times, and you get out on parole every time.
Speaker 1: And I'm not bitter about that. I don't even think
Speaker 1: about the TC anymore. I don't think about parole anymore.
Speaker 1: I do that. I do the next thing I'm supposed
Speaker 1: to do that hour. I do the next right thing
Speaker 1: every hour, and then the next thing after that, and
Speaker 1: then I go sleep and I can do it all
Speaker 1: over again. Are you surprised that she would do that?
Speaker 1: I'm surprised at the system more than i'm surprised at her.
Speaker 1: I'm surprised at the system gives false hope and tells
Speaker 1: you something's going to happen and then takes it back.
Speaker 1: That's that's what I say, is Yeah, but they couldn't
Speaker 1: know that she was going to come forward. Well, we
Speaker 1: don't know. We just we're assuming, and that's a really
Speaker 1: good assumption. You know, I've got one hundred bucks on it.
Speaker 1: Actually we do know. In an earlier episode, we learned
Speaker 1: that the victim wrote and delivered a letter to the
Speaker 1: parole board herself. So no, I'm not surprised. I'm sure
Speaker 1: was her failing when it was her? Why do you
Speaker 1: think that she's an adult song? That doesn't matter. That's
Speaker 1: all just you know, interesting drama for the story. What
Speaker 1: matters is that she is hopefully moving on. And as
Speaker 1: much as I wish I could take it back, I
Speaker 1: can't take it back. So all I can do is hope,
Speaker 1: pray for everybody involved to be okay and move on. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's taking a long long time. Jen was curious about
Speaker 1: the letter, so she put in a call to the
Speaker 1: victim and asked if she would be willing to share
Speaker 1: it with the podcast. Do you remember when he was
Speaker 1: first supposed to be pooled. It was last year. It
Speaker 1: was I think either around September or October, yeah, of
Speaker 1: twenty one. Right. Yeah, So when you found this out,
Speaker 1: you decided to write this letter? Do you mind reading it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And I was thinking of actually just saying my first
Speaker 1: name only because this podcast has gotten so much attention,
Speaker 1: and I thought maybe this could be an example for
Speaker 1: other people or kids. Cannot be afraid. What you did
Speaker 1: was so brave and incredible. It's obviously up to you.
Speaker 1: I just thought it's one thing to say, oh, the victim, right,
Speaker 1: It's so hard for me, and you know, I'm so
Speaker 1: protective of you and your identity, but like calling you
Speaker 1: the victim, you know, it's just I get it, obviously, y.
Speaker 1: You know you're just so much more than that to me.
Speaker 1: Thank you. So I wrote to whom it may concerns. First,
Speaker 1: I would like to say that I don't know what
Speaker 1: to say other than I am still in my process
Speaker 1: of healing from what Spencer Haron did to me, starting
Speaker 1: from when I was fifteen up until the very early
Speaker 1: stages of my adult life. At first, when I received
Speaker 1: the letter with news of him being up for parole,
Speaker 1: I didn't want to respond or say anything, because all
Speaker 1: I would like to do is move on with my life. However,
Speaker 1: I realized then that is exactly what he would want.
Speaker 1: It would have been a disservice to myself and all
Speaker 1: the young girls out there had I not come forward
Speaker 1: in the first place. And even now, years later, I
Speaker 1: am responding to this because I believe he should not
Speaker 1: be granted parole. People like Spencer Heron, who prey on
Speaker 1: the innocence and trust of adolescence, do not wake up
Speaker 1: one day and decide to sexually assault these children. People
Speaker 1: like him take the time to select their victims and
Speaker 1: begin the grooming process, just as he did with me.
Speaker 1: This takes strategy, time, and effort on their part. I
Speaker 1: wasn't the first victim, and I will not be the
Speaker 1: last if he is released. Predators such as Spencer Herron
Speaker 1: cannot control their perversions, nor are they willing to. This
Speaker 1: ends up hurting not only the victims but their families
Speaker 1: as well, just like he did to mine. I know
Speaker 1: a side of him that not many do, and I
Speaker 1: still live with those images in my mind every day.
Speaker 1: He is cool, calculated, manipulative, deceitful, and violent. He has
Speaker 1: no regard for who he hurts, and I am afraid
Speaker 1: that there will be more victims if granted role. I'm
Speaker 1: also afraid for myself. I hope this letter will be
Speaker 1: taken into consideration. Thank you for taking the time to
Speaker 1: read this, Sincerely, Rachel, such a powerful letter to the
Speaker 1: parole board and on this podcast, bravely putting her anonymity
Speaker 1: behind her, claiming her strength because she's more than a victim,
Speaker 1: She's a Rachel. Whether you would get paroled or not,
Speaker 1: Spencer would eventually be released. Jen wanted to know was
Speaker 1: he prepared? If you want to be successful, don't you
Speaker 1: think you should think about getting some help? I am,
Speaker 1: but I can't say that I'm going to until I
Speaker 1: know what I'm gonna be up against. Want to get help?
Speaker 1: Do you guys have therapy and stuff in prison? Nothing
Speaker 1: even close to anything you might even possibly imagine. Well,
Speaker 1: that's why I was wondering what your plan is for
Speaker 1: after you get out. My first plan and only real plan,
Speaker 1: is to make sure I'm successful on probation or parole.
Speaker 1: Because it's not I'll in it right back here. Since
Speaker 1: we last, so like, have you gotten more about what
Speaker 1: kind of life you had been leading, of course. I
Speaker 1: mean that's that's what you do when you're when you
Speaker 1: have all this time in the year, you can reflect
Speaker 1: on everything and then hopefully if you're person wants to change,
Speaker 1: then you figure out how to do it. How do
Speaker 1: you change it to the best of your ability? Really? Then, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe that's the part that you don't understand because you've
Speaker 1: never been to prison. Let me tell you, no sane
Speaker 1: person would ever come back here. Ever, I've earned my time.
Speaker 1: I've done it. Well, I haven't finished it yet, but
Speaker 1: I will have done it. To your point about how
Speaker 1: I'm going to deal with things, I'm going to look
Speaker 1: at somebody square and I I go, I've done but
Speaker 1: I was told I had to do. And if you
Speaker 1: aren't cool with that, and we just won't have to
Speaker 1: we don't want to be cool. And I know that's
Speaker 1: going to be the majority of my last say majority
Speaker 1: of my past contacts. I'm going to use the word friends.
Speaker 1: He had done what he was told he had to do,
Speaker 1: a clean slate, that's what he was after. However, he'll
Speaker 1: still serve fifteen years probation. He'll be registered as a
Speaker 1: sex offender. I mean almost everyone as you know, the
Speaker 1: people who have come out to support me, outside of
Speaker 1: one or two people have been all surprises. So I've
Speaker 1: seen the miracle and how God has used people to
Speaker 1: get me through this. I've witnessed it, I've experienced it,
Speaker 1: and I know it's going to be the same on
Speaker 1: the out there. I don't have to have as many
Speaker 1: friends as I had before. What I'm saying is I understand,
Speaker 1: and we'll all understand why people are gonna forever pull back.
Speaker 1: They're going to probably pull back Spence because of what
Speaker 1: you did. I'm just I'm making the point that it's
Speaker 1: it's it's the betrayal. It hurts sometimes more than the action.
Speaker 1: I'm not opposed to getting help. I'm not opposed to
Speaker 1: any of that kind. But I'm not saying I don't
Speaker 1: need it. What I'm saying is I have to I
Speaker 1: have to take one thing at a time, and the
Speaker 1: first thing I have to take controller is making sure
Speaker 1: I will ever get in this trouble yet. But how
Speaker 1: do you do that? You stay under the radar, You
Speaker 1: put it, stay under the radar before You've got lucky
Speaker 1: that you got away with it for so long. I
Speaker 1: know you, I know you're being facetious when you say that, well,
Speaker 1: you mean well, I wasn't lucky you got away with it.
Speaker 1: I was unlucky that I was getting away with it.
Speaker 1: It's been better for it all gone the ship the
Speaker 1: first time. That's the truth. Was he saying that if
Speaker 1: he had just gotten caught having a consensual affair, he
Speaker 1: wouldn't have committed sexual assault on a teenager. You have
Speaker 1: one minute left. The call ended. It was polite, Kurt,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for your time. So let me
Speaker 1: get this straight. You hadn't talked to him, You hadn't
Speaker 1: heard his voice in what was it two years? Yeah,
Speaker 1: when he got convicted January twenty nineteen, I cut off
Speaker 1: all communication with him. I was done. You know, he
Speaker 1: was sent to prison and I was done. I didn't
Speaker 1: feel like I needed to talk to him anymore. It
Speaker 1: wasn't doing me any good. And then when we started
Speaker 1: this podcast, you know, I wanted to talk with him.
Speaker 1: Were you nervous about talking with him? Like, what were
Speaker 1: you feeling when you're to answer that phone call because
Speaker 1: he had to call you. Well, I see the call
Speaker 1: coming in and it says Wilcox State Prison, and my
Speaker 1: stomach just turns and I get so nervous, and part
Speaker 1: of it was I knew when I answered that he
Speaker 1: was going to be all happy and excited to hear
Speaker 1: from me and everything, and that it doesn't sit well
Speaker 1: with me, Like does he not understand? Yeah, he's just
Speaker 1: I guess it's denial. Do you recognize the person on
Speaker 1: the phone on the other side, Yes, definitely. He sounds
Speaker 1: the same, talks the same, tries to spin everything into
Speaker 1: a positive almost. And the thing is, I'm sure you
Speaker 1: notice this. He avoids answering any questions. And how did
Speaker 1: you feel after the call? I got off the phone
Speaker 1: with him and realized that I never need to speak
Speaker 1: to him again. Wow. I just feel like I can
Speaker 1: wash my hands of it, partly because I'm never going
Speaker 1: to get the answers. He's not capable and it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: It's not my problem, it's his problem. I feel like
Speaker 1: I have put the final piece in a box that
Speaker 1: I can like pack up, tape up, and put away
Speaker 1: in the attic. We haven't even talked about this yet,
Speaker 1: but you reached out about an update on his parole. Well,
Speaker 1: I have a friend that has been so amazing the
Speaker 1: last four years at always searching to see if dates
Speaker 1: have changed for parole or whatever. And so I woke
Speaker 1: up when morning to a text just the other day
Speaker 1: that said he's getting released June twenty twenty two. So
Speaker 1: within the next three weeks he's going to be out.
Speaker 1: Oh he could be out tomorrow, right, Andrea, do you
Speaker 1: remember last summer when we talked on the phone and
Speaker 1: I was telling you about how Spence was supposed to
Speaker 1: get paroled like in October. You were in the car,
Speaker 1: like hysterically crying. Yes, And I was really scared. So
Speaker 1: then when the parole got revoked because the victim wrote
Speaker 1: the letter, you know, I thought he was going to
Speaker 1: be in there until June twenty twenty three. How does
Speaker 1: June twenty twenty two different from June twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: I think I've just done a lot more work on
Speaker 1: understanding this mess that I was in and this relationship,
Speaker 1: and I've healed a lot. And I have to say,
Speaker 1: the first time that we were in the studio together,
Speaker 1: I was really angry. I mean it was still raw,
Speaker 1: and I was angry at the women. And you looked
Speaker 1: at me and you said, Jennifer, you're really angry at
Speaker 1: these women. And I think you need to take a
Speaker 1: look at that. I was pissed. I was like, what
Speaker 1: is she talking about? But I thank you for that
Speaker 1: because I got there and you seeing that from the beginning,
Speaker 1: and then seeing it when I was able to talk
Speaker 1: with some of these women and the compassion that was there,
Speaker 1: I just I felt it. Yeah, And I said, like,
Speaker 1: I will not do this project with you if it's
Speaker 1: coming from a place of anger. It needs to be
Speaker 1: coming from a place of curiosity and trying to reclaim
Speaker 1: your life. And you made a commitment to me that
Speaker 1: day that you would get there. I just I hadn't
Speaker 1: learned it at that point. I was still researching and
Speaker 1: there was so much to read, and then the same
Speaker 1: story over and over and over and over again with
Speaker 1: so many different women. I just had to learn. So
Speaker 1: thanks for sticking it out with me. Absolutely, thanks for
Speaker 1: sticking it out with me. Heck yeah, I want to
Speaker 1: play you something from episode three when you were talking
Speaker 1: to Rachel. You said something really important and she said
Speaker 1: something similar. I just hope that this will help someone
Speaker 1: out there. I just want this to help someone who's
Speaker 1: going through the same pain. But you went through and
Speaker 1: that I went through. That's all I think We've both
Speaker 1: learned that just sharing the stuff if it can help
Speaker 1: one other person be I just know that helping other victims,
Speaker 1: you know, of betrayal, trauma, grooming, abuse of power, was
Speaker 1: a big part of embarking on this project for you,
Speaker 1: for Rachel, for me and our other producers. And I
Speaker 1: think that's why she told her story and felt comfortable
Speaker 1: coming to you. So I hope it's okay, but I
Speaker 1: wanted to spend some time to read you some of
Speaker 1: the letters that we've received from our audience, If that's okay. Sure.
Speaker 1: Listening to Jennifer's story helped me realize more about an
Speaker 1: experience I had when I was in high school. I
Speaker 1: had still not fully made the connection between my experience
Speaker 1: and being a victim of grooming as a teenager. Putting
Speaker 1: those missing pieces together has helped me process and untangle
Speaker 1: some things and really shame I didn't realize was still there. Jennifer,
Speaker 1: thank you for being courageous and sharing your story. Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, I'm gonna cry. Well, I am crying. Here's
Speaker 1: another one. In two thousand and eight, I was twenty
Speaker 1: two years old and my fifty five year old boss
Speaker 1: did many of these exact same things. He somehow talked
Speaker 1: me into having an affair. I felt beyond sick and
Speaker 1: uncomfortable about it ever since. I didn't say no, but
Speaker 1: I wanted to. He made me feel special all the
Speaker 1: shitty things. It was a type of an assault on
Speaker 1: my psyche, my mind, my heart, and my conscience. It
Speaker 1: took me until this podcast, thirty seven years old to
Speaker 1: finally forgive myself. Thanks for giving me space to sit
Speaker 1: with my feels and open the door to something I
Speaker 1: didn't think I could heal from. Oh gosh, and here's
Speaker 1: the last one I wanted to share. I discovered my
Speaker 1: husband calling and visiting massage parlors offering sexual favors my
Speaker 1: underage girls, whom I believe are victims of trafficking, late
Speaker 1: to the fairy tale, picturesque life of dreams to come
Speaker 1: in history, proposed to at a castle in Germany. I've
Speaker 1: never been a princess type, but he sure made me
Speaker 1: feel like one. My family loved him as he offered
Speaker 1: a helping hand anyone in need. Total boy scout, do
Speaker 1: good or facade. That was all ingenuine and too good
Speaker 1: to be true. Jennifer, your story is exactly what I needed.
Speaker 1: To hear at this moment in my life. It has
Speaker 1: truly impacted my life in the best ways and restored
Speaker 1: my hope and the potential resilience and recovery and healing
Speaker 1: the human spirit. Much love and gratitude. You know, I
Speaker 1: was really scared to put this out there. It's so personal,
Speaker 1: it's not a comfortable topic. What do you think you've
Speaker 1: learned from this man? How to be patient, how to
Speaker 1: be resilient, how to just have faith that the sun
Speaker 1: would come up the next day, and so hearing that
Speaker 1: it has helped other people, that's it. That's the whole
Speaker 1: reason that I did this. I feel like you did
Speaker 1: your job. Jen. We are beyond grateful to our listeners
Speaker 1: for the outpouring of support since we've started. So many
Speaker 1: of you have written into Betrayalpod at gmail dot com
Speaker 1: with your personal experiences and questions associated with this story.
Speaker 1: Our plan is to address them, so we're taking a
Speaker 1: few weeks off, but plan to bring you new episodes
Speaker 1: with new insights very soon. Stay tuned. If you'd like
Speaker 1: to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at
Speaker 1: Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at gmail
Speaker 1: dot com Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a
Speaker 1: division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 1: The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason,
Speaker 1: hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced
Speaker 1: by Carry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart
Speaker 1: team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinchick. Sound editing and
Speaker 1: mixing done by Matt DeVecchio. Betrayal's theme was composed by
Speaker 1: Oliver Bain's music library provided by my Music and. For
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.