1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective. 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: I've been O'Brien and in this episode, I'm joined by 3 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: a man that I've wanted to have on this podcast 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: since I picked up a microphone to start the thing. 5 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: And that made is Jim Posewitz and Jim pozzwits against 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: to me and to many others, a conservation legend. If 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,639 Speaker 1: you don't know who he is, shame on you, your bastards. 8 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: Listen up. He is a legend in Montana. He had 9 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: a thirty two year career at the Montana Department of Fish, 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: Wildlife and Parks and then doing so, helped create the 11 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: Ecological Services Division and help protect his adopted home state 12 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: of Montana at the Rocky Mountain Front, the Yellowstone River 13 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: and some groundbreaking tactics to protect these places from development 14 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: of all shapes and sizes. He has a lifelong passion 15 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: for writing, and as you're hearing this podcast, pend a 16 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: book called Beyond Fair Chase East that was a national 17 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: bestseller sold over seven hundred thousand copies, and just wrote 18 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: his autobiography called My Best Shop. And he's a man 19 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: that his living the conservation ethic and some of the 20 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: stories he tells in this podcast some of the ways 21 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: he shapes the foundational elements of hunting in our pursuits 22 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: are seminal to what we do. And it's very special 23 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: to me to be able to sit in his home 24 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: and listen to him speak about these issues. I loved it. 25 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: And to help out with this conversation, I brought along 26 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,559 Speaker 1: Sam Longern. He's a mediator. He's part of the Mediator 27 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: editorial crew here in Bozeman and is a devotee and 28 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: follower of Mr pos Wits and has talked to him 29 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: many times before and and I believe it would help 30 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: out with the conversation. So without further ado, please enjoy 31 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: Jim posits. Jim, how are you, sir? I have fine, Sam. 32 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: How about yourself? I'm doing quite well. We're all doing well. Good, 33 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: we're all doing well well. Thanks for having us in 34 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: your home. That's good to good to be in Helena. UM, 35 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: it's good to meet you. Well, my pleasure. Yeah, I 36 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 1: would like to see the young guard coming to the front. 37 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: We're trying to do what we're trying to do our 38 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: best generationally. UM. I always like to to begin some 39 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: of these things with a description of of where we 40 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: are since people can't see where we are, okay, so 41 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: I imagine from sitting in this room that there are 42 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: and already from chatting prior to hitting record, that there 43 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: are a lot of artifacts of your life in this room, 44 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: many of them, um, including a giant mule deer in 45 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,679 Speaker 1: the corner. Um. So give us a quick description of 46 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: the rumor sitting in and where we are. People. The 47 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: room we're sitting in was built around UM nineteen o nine, 48 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: and I happened to come across it later in life 49 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: meeting of a organization called the Forever Wild Endowment, and 50 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: the Forever Wild Endowment was having meetings in this room 51 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: and uh, this building the this is an add on 52 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: to the building original building, but at the time it 53 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: was owned by Donna Metcalfe Lee Metcalf's widow, and so 54 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: I told her she ever wanted to sell it, I 55 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: could use uh Downtown Helena office space. And so that's 56 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: how I came to own the building. Was I bought 57 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: it from the widow of Lee Metcalf and he is, 58 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: of course one of the inaugural inductees into Montana Outdoor 59 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: Hall of Fame. As you are also a member, I'm 60 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: also a member and and uh, that's a growing cadree 61 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: of cool dudes. I got to write that down. Let 62 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: go over to the podcast early on. Um, there's a 63 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: lot of things in here. You were talking earlier, of 64 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: course about your giant yel deer that you killed. So 65 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: give us a quick rundown on this this giant I'm 66 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: gonna take a picture of it. Everybody can see how 67 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: big this thing is. But what year did you kill 68 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: it and where did you stumble across it? Well, I 69 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: meticulously hunted it in nifty five. I was twenty years 70 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: old at the time. It was my third year in Montana, 71 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: third hunting season in Montana, and may have been just 72 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: after January in fifty six of an extended season at 73 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: the extension of the fifty five hunting season. But it 74 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 1: was on a tributary to the Madison River called Wolf 75 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: Creek and what it was. In fact, in my book 76 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: Beyond Fair Chase, I have a little section on the 77 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: two bucks of Wolf Creek, pointing out that I was 78 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: a novice hunter. I had excellent hunting conditions on this 79 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:07,359 Speaker 1: particular day. Uh, real cold, late season, lots of snow. 80 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: We struggled just to get to the base of the hill, 81 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: and of course up on the hillside at first light, 82 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: we saw a number of deer that end. That deer 83 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: was in the group, and I had to get above 84 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: them to hunt them. And in the process of getting 85 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: to the ridgeline above these deer so I could approach 86 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: them from the top down and have better cover and 87 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: that kind of thing, I sorted my way through twenty 88 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: some big horn sheep that were also up on that 89 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: slope and trying to do it without alarming them, and uh, 90 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: we're able to succeed successfully do that. I eventually get 91 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: above these deer and uh begin to begin the star 92 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: talk and shoot that buck. And he was about halfway 93 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: up a wide open slope and uh there was quite 94 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: a slide when he went down, and that slide was 95 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 1: visible from the road between Ennis and West Yellowstone. I 96 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: know that road. And uh, the game warden saw that slide, 97 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: and he when his name was Todd. He was a 98 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: very vigilant game warden, a good guy. So he goes 99 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: and uh waits for us to come out. And it's cold, cold, 100 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: and I dragged the deer down to the to the 101 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: jeep and we take the jeep out and of course. 102 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: En route, we almost ran into the game warden coming in, 103 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: and he was convinced that I had poached a sheep, 104 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: because that's he knew the sheep were there. He saw 105 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: the slide coming off the hillside, and uh, I had 106 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: everything tagged and punched correctly. And so, with some reluctancy, 107 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: finally gave into the fact that, Okay, I guess these guys, 108 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: these kids really Yeah, and uh, that's kind of the 109 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: story and this footnote to the to that one. Uh, 110 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: the next season, I shot one in the same drainage, 111 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: almost as big. And those are the two biggest deer 112 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: I've shot and sixty some years of hunting. Yeah, this 113 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: is a giant buck. To look at it now, the 114 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: mass it had holes on his main beans really all 115 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: it's times. It's unbelievable. And I take great pride in 116 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: the fact that I never measured it, because I do 117 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: not want to reduce that value of that experience. Yeah, 118 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: to a mathematical number. To me, it wouldn't didn't make 119 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: any sense. It's a tribute to the longevity that was 120 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: available because of the wild country that was in what 121 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: is now the Lead Metcalf Wilderness. And we're sitting in 122 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: a building that was once the Metcalf guesthouse. Imagine your 123 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: life has all kind of through lines like that with 124 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: various amazing. It's amazing how how that happens. Uh, I 125 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: can give you another satellite story, and I guess you can. 126 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: We're here for him, keep it coming, okay. UM. When 127 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: I was writing the book Uh right for ore on 128 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: the twenty nine twelve election of Theodore Roosevelt, and I 129 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,439 Speaker 1: was working with an illustrator who were in ran the 130 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: framing shop and the framing and there's quite a bit 131 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: of Theodore Roosevelt, both in Rifle in Hand plus the 132 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:03,239 Speaker 1: Taking a Bullet. Uh. Both books focused on theater Roosevelt, 133 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: and I write about Theodore Roosevelt shooting his first buffalo 134 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: in eight three on Little cannon Ball Creek and far 135 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: eastern Montana tributary to the Little Missouri. The guy at 136 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: the framing shop says, Uh, you know, there's a guy 137 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: who comes in here from time to time and he 138 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 1: has me frame memorabilia from the original Bull Moose party 139 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: in nineteen twelve. And I said, oh, what's his name? 140 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: And he said, well, it's uh Doug Ferris. Well, Theodore 141 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: Roosevelt's hunting guide for the three hunt was Joe Ferris. 142 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: And I come home and I tell my wife Gail, 143 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: I've got to find Doug Ferris. And she said, well, 144 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: let me make some calls. Not kind of surprised me, 145 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: but I said, fine, you know, you have some help. 146 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: We call around. We find Doug fair Us living in 147 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 1: a rest home about two or three blocks from our 148 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: state capital. I go and we go and have a 149 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: meeting with him, and it turns out to be Joe 150 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: Ferris's grandson. Gail wanted to make the phone call because 151 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: he had been her next door neighbor for ten years 152 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 1: and never made it. The story never, you know, was exchanged, 153 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: and so she had lived next to the grand son 154 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: and Theodore Roosevelt's original hunting guy, and there she was 155 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: married to a man writing books on the right. And 156 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: we find them three blocks from the state capital and 157 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: the rest home. And uh. One of the other things 158 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt did locally was he threw the put the 159 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: Elkhorn Mountains into the forest system. And when the nineteen 160 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: o five it was the hundredth anniversary of Theodore Roosevelt, 161 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: who put the four service together. Basically in the nineteen 162 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: o five and during his presidency there, and so we 163 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: had a little celebration over here in the myrnal Looid 164 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: which you can see out this window, and we brought 165 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: uh the Forest Service and my organization at the time, 166 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: which was Oryan, the Hunter's Institute. We put together an 167 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: evening program on the accomplishments of Theodore Roosevelt creating the 168 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: national forest system and how we're surrounded by national forests here. 169 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:43,719 Speaker 1: And we invited Doug Ferris to come. And so here's this. 170 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: He's on a walker by this time and he's getting 171 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: quite aged, but with Gayle's help, we get him into 172 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: the meeting room, put him in the front row, stand 173 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: him up with the help of his walker, and I 174 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: tell the story of Theodore Roosevelt and his hunting guy, Joe, 175 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: and then introduced the grandson of Joe Ferris, Doug Ferres, 176 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: and he gets a standing ovation. That must have been 177 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,079 Speaker 1: a powerful moment. It was a moment, you know, it's 178 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: a golden moment, Like I said, from in your life 179 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: that you know, the great life that you've led. There's 180 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: there's so many things that you've achieved and done, but 181 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 1: some of these stories are just the connection that the 182 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: community that we're in, you know, is the satellite story. 183 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: And now the main event is pretty interesting too. But 184 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: when you have these intersections and trail crossings and things 185 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: like that, yeah, no one that shared these shared experiences, 186 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: the shared passion. You have these people that you just 187 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,319 Speaker 1: and total strangers. Yeah. Absolutely, And and that's part of 188 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: the the beauty of the North American model of wildlife 189 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: relationship we call it, you know, the fact that in 190 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: a democracy, any seeing, any person that wants to can 191 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: participate in anything and including the hunt. And that wasn't assured. 192 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: I mean, you look at our founding documents and fish 193 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: and wildlife is not mentioned. It's all about human rights, 194 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: human liberties and opportunity and all that. But none of 195 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: the founding documents address who's going to own and be 196 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: responsible for the fish and wildlife and who gets to 197 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:31,559 Speaker 1: be the hunter. That has to be decided by the courts. 198 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: The court system starts arguing about that in eighteen forty 199 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: two over New Jersey oyster fishing in the New Jersey Meadowlands, 200 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: and they say because of the Declaration of Independence. The 201 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: Court of Supreme co US Supreme Court says this because 202 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 1: of the Declaration of Independence, the people are the sovereign, 203 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: and those rights and privileges of sovereignty belonged to the people. 204 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: And if the fish and wildlife resources to be managed 205 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: as a public trust for their benefit, huge decision. That 206 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: decision was made sixteen years before Theodore Roosevelt was born, 207 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: sixteen years after Theodore Roosevelt dies I was born. That's 208 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: the whole show. Here we are of people in a 209 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: democracy finding a way to live with, appreciate, enjoy, and 210 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: take care of these products of nature. Are you Are 211 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: you proud of um hunters? Are you proud of you know, 212 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: as you sit here today, are you proud of what 213 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: hunters have done? Oh? Absolutely, If you look at the 214 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: record of achievement. I mean we haven't always been you know, 215 00:14:55,680 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: this dance was not done in ballerina slippers, was clogs 216 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: and cloths and hobnails and other things. But you look 217 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: at the end product, something you can actually go out 218 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: and measure, something that is real, and you look at 219 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: a wildlife resource that was marvelously restored. When Theodore Roosevelt 220 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: shoots this buffalo in three on Little Cannonball Creek, Montana, 221 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: he was so excited to get one of the last. 222 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: North Dakota had their last commercial slaughter in August of 223 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: eighty three. T R showed up in September, huntred for 224 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: nine days before he and Joe find this lone wandering bull. 225 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: Never inside Jake my start in a journey of a 226 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: thousand miles across Montana from the eastern border to within 227 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: sight of the Rock Mountain front and back. Yeah, and 228 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: we're the bone yard of a continent. And does that 229 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: define in that period of time? Because he's as you, 230 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: you know, the definition of what a hunter is has 231 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: changed many times. There were millions of years of course, 232 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: as our human existence has changed and shifted. Do you 233 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: feel like the modern hunter was defined in that perilous time? 234 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: You know, through we always we have the people we 235 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: know that defined it. But you do do you really 236 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: feel like it was codified in that in those moments? Well, 237 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: it was codified that it was up to the people. 238 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: I mean, this was a public resource to be managed 239 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: as a public trust. And then, like so many other 240 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:46,359 Speaker 1: things in a democracy, government often stumbles and fails and 241 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: and doesn't persist or whatever reason, and then the people 242 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: in a democracy filled the gaps. I mean, I've worked 243 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: with spent twenty five years working with the Cinembar Foundation 244 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: and that as an environmental granting group. In our first 245 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: year we passed out three grants. This year. In modern times, 246 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 1: there are over a hundred and forty or fifty applicants 247 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: a year just in Montana looking for grants to advance 248 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: a conservation or environmental restoration agenda. So that's the proliferation 249 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: of the NGOs. And if you look back at the 250 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: history of the idea of wildlife restoration, introduction of the 251 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: Sporting Code and conservation, well you're back in seven. It's 252 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 1: like four years after tr shoots that first Wandering Loan 253 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: Last Bull, he forms the Boone and Crockett Club along 254 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: with the Pin Show and George Bird Grennell and others 255 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: for the restoration of big game and for the introduction 256 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: of the Sporting Code. No, I mean, I think Roosevelt 257 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: at that time was maybe in there's still late twenties. 258 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: He lives to be sixty one, but he lives in 259 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: a time when it was the dramatic destruction of the 260 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: America's wildlife was most I guess most dramatic. Yeah, I 261 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: mean never there's nothing but bones out there under press 262 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: like that it seemed like in that time for this content, 263 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: at least you have a a group of people come 264 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: over to escape and aristocracy in the European aristocracy, hunting 265 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: was very different, right, Um, I thought it was very different. 266 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: It was the very elitist activity, and that you know, 267 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: the hunting ethic, what you might call hunting ethic. In 268 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: that scenario, as folks journey to the New World, we lost, 269 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: I would I would say, and I hope you would 270 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: agree that we've lost for a time what hunters really 271 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: worked society as we landed here and manifest destiny took 272 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: over and we started pushing west, and you know, the 273 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: first step of survival you gotta eat. In that same 274 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:19,719 Speaker 1: time period, in England, poaching was the number one rural crime. 275 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 1: Punishment was often death. One English code said it was 276 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: ah if a person was convicted of taking so much 277 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 1: as a hair, they shall have their eyes gouged out. 278 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: In that same period, in Merry Old England, the rocks, 279 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: the board, the beaver, the uh wolf, and the reign 280 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: there when extinct. They were poached to extinction. At the 281 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: same time period that the colonies were being formed, and 282 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: of course when the king was granting colonial lands to 283 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: his buddies. They often included the fishings, hawkings, huntings, and foulings, 284 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: and so they were trying to take that European model 285 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 1: and dump it. That gets changed by the oysterman. Sixteen 286 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: years later, Theodore Roosevelt is born, and we are stripping 287 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: the continent of all the game because of their commercial value. 288 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: Market hunting and other uh theories about our relationship with 289 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: the native people's here are probably likewise is valid, but 290 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 1: there was no conservation ethic evident except in various individuals 291 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: at the local level. I mean James and Granville Steward 292 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 1: right in here. Eighteen sixty, eighteen fifty seven, that was 293 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 1: one year before tr was born. They become territorial legislators 294 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty four, and as territorial legislators in sixty 295 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: four they put through a bill restricting fishing to a 296 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: hook and line. And I thought, wow, that was good 297 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: because Montana is being settled by miners, and all miners 298 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 1: have dynamite. Thanks. The truth of the matter was that 299 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: was before dynamite was invented. They were doing other means 300 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: of getting the fish out with scenes and changing, just 301 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: turning the stream course away and drying up the channel 302 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: and picking up the fish. And so our territorial legislators 303 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty four went in restricted angling to taking 304 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: a fish to a hook and line. That was twelve 305 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: years before Custer died at the at the Little Big Horn. 306 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: In the seventy two they began trying to set close 307 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: seasons to start protecting the vanishing remnants of wildlife here. 308 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 1: So the conservation ethic is in the people and in 309 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 1: the democracy. It's a form of government in which that 310 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: expression can live and get nurtured, and uh gets spread 311 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: and adopted. And well, where do you believe that? Looking 312 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: back at Teddy Roosevelt, where you believe do you think 313 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,239 Speaker 1: there's a seminal moment or a point in his life 314 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 1: where the seed was planted in him? Yeah? He has. 315 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: There's two writings you need to look at. I couldn't 316 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: quite can't quote him from memory here. But in eighty 317 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,479 Speaker 1: three he shoots that first buffalo and he does this 318 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: war dance around the fallen bull. He gives his guy 319 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 1: Joe Ferris, a hundred dollars in eighteen eighty three. That's 320 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 1: a small fortune house. Oh, for sure. He shoots the 321 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: second buffalo in eighteen eighty nine, somewhere on the southern 322 00:22:55,320 --> 00:23:00,160 Speaker 1: border with Montana, Idaho, probably not too far from Yellowstone, 323 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: and his observations then are totally different. He talks about 324 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: this soon to be vanished, this remnant of a vanishing race, 325 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 1: and and of course that, uh that was eighty nine. 326 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: By seven he had formed the Boone and Crockett helped 327 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: form Boone and Crockett Club for the introducing the Sporting 328 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 1: code and the restoration a big game. Yeah, and uh 329 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: so his conservation epiphany occurred in Montana. I think because 330 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: there was no fatalism in his writings then. It wasn't 331 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 1: like we're doomed forever. No. No. And the fact that 332 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: all these guys went back to New York State and 333 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 1: he gathered for a Christmas dinner or something of that 334 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: nature and decided to take action. And then in seven 335 00:23:54,640 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: we dedicated to theater Roosevelt Memorial Ranch up us to 336 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: Deployer as a hundred recognition of the hundredth anniversary of 337 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: Roosevelt's conservation. Uh, you know, epiphany and all the marvelous 338 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: things he did. You know, you set aside a hundred 339 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: and twenty million acres for conservation purposes when he was 340 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: in the White House. Do you believe do you believe 341 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: you know obviously that that feeling is in the people, right, 342 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 1: the value for the animals, It is instilled in us. Yeah, 343 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 1: it's these are things that are instilled in us. They 344 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: may have been a race for a time as we 345 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,959 Speaker 1: battled with natives and if as we you know, treated 346 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: our manifest destiny as it as it was a value. Well, 347 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: I think you know in those days, the fact that 348 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: you have this conservation ethic sort of latent in the 349 00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: human culture and a lack of direct action or leadership 350 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: from the top end, you almost see the repetition of 351 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: that in current events. As you think about this, I 352 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: don't want to get it. I don't want to fast 353 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: forward in time too much as you as you're talking 354 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: about this, I'm like that that's that's kind of still happening. 355 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 1: I'll sure they're still trying to get rid of public lands, 356 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: you know, or getting oil well drilled in him and 357 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: coal mined under him. And and you know when Roosevelt 358 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:36,479 Speaker 1: was putting this public of state aside, he was adding uh, 359 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: national forests and things in Congress past a the law 360 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: they made it. It was an attachment to an agg 361 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: appropriations bill. Again, that kind of shenani seems similar to 362 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: today identical, but to prohibit him from setting aside any 363 00:25:54,640 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: national force in Washington, Oregon, Montana, UH, Colorado, and Wyoming 364 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: in one other states six or six states anyhow in 365 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: this western bloc, and forbid him from setting aside any 366 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,360 Speaker 1: more national forests. Because it was a writer on agg 367 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: appropriations bill, they had the votes to override a veto. 368 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 1: He has seven days to sign or veto the legislation. 369 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: In those seven days, he creates twenty two national forests 370 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: at sixteen million acres to the forest the state signed 371 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: for executive orders doing that and then signing the bill 372 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: from forbidding him from ever doing it again. And then 373 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: after that he started using national monuments to accomplish similar 374 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,439 Speaker 1: game refuges and bison refuge and things and so. And 375 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: he wrote in his autobiography, my opponents hand springs, in 376 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 1: their wrath and dire, were their threats, which only attest 377 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 1: to the efficiency of our action. Still appropriate to the moment. Well, 378 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 1: and you fast forward to President Franklin D. Roosevelt. Uh 379 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: the first ever national Uh was it North American Wildife? 380 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: Come North American Wildlife Conference. I was one year old. Yes, 381 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 1: I didn't go. I was saying I was there. I'll 382 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,199 Speaker 1: tell you what happened. What happened. So that's another you know, 383 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: because because it's enough to have the ethic right, it's 384 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: enough to say that that we believe that these things 385 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 1: should be taken care of, but it's it's nothing another 386 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: thing to develop how we would pay for that, how 387 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 1: we would care those things. So take folks through, um, 388 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 1: what happens at that gathering and kind of what what 389 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: it becomes. Well gathering produced the National Wildlife Federation a 390 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: citizen and geo because they government needed help. And uh, 391 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: one of the first things they did was to work 392 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 1: on producing and introducing the Pittman Robertson Act, which would 393 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: tax firearms and ammunition. And the beauty of that moment 394 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: was the gun manufacturers were lined up with the sportsmen 395 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: in pursuit of the conservation as ethic that would restore 396 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: big game across the entire continent. That went from introduction 397 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: to the President's signature in ninety days for lat and Uh, 398 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: it was Yeah, that was it seems to me like 399 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: a huge difference. Yeah, I mean, it seems if something 400 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: like that were to happen today, if two thousand conservationists 401 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: were to come together and decide on the future of 402 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: of the model, well we tried that, you know. In 403 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: a period there uh in the late eighties and early nineties, 404 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: we had to think called the Governor's Symposium on the 405 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: North American Hunting Heritage. There were seven of them held. 406 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: First one was in Montana, called by Governor Stan Stevens, 407 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: and the idea was to examine what was wrong with 408 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: hunting because we were taking a horrible whipping the hunting 409 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: community was because we were shooting every buffalo that set 410 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: foot out of the Yellowstone National Park. And I had 411 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: been a national conference in Washington, d c. Meeting of 412 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: some kind, listened to public radio, and they were bashing 413 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: hunting mercilessly because of that action. That action was required 414 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: by the Montana state legislature at the time. And I 415 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: came back, had a new dirt governor and a new 416 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: director of the Fishing Game, and that one of his 417 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: first staff meetings. I got up and I said, is 418 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: there anybody in this room that things were doing the 419 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: right thing? And not a soul stood up? And that 420 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: was the entire you know, leadership of the Fishing Game Department, 421 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: and the new director took note of that, and the 422 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: new governor called the Governor Symposium series and then uh 423 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: legislator from Zoula, Bob Reem, introduced a bill to get 424 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: that off the books, and he was successful, and that 425 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: was kind of a turning point for the Buffalo for sure. Well, 426 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: I mean going back to because I want to take 427 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: you know, your entrance into the in the fray here 428 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: in the hunting space and the conservation space. But you 429 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: move on from you know, I feel like the North 430 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: American model not named that yet until until started to 431 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 1: really you know, really being concreted in, you know, after 432 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: that conference and after we knew how we were going 433 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: to pay for the Pitman Robertson Act, and knew how 434 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: we were going to pay for things, I think, things 435 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: really you could say accelerated or normalized um and the 436 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: modern hunter kind of sprung from there. What didn't happen 437 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: was that we approached various components of the outdoor industry 438 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: at as these conferences were rotating. Nobody was willing to 439 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: step up like the firearms and ammunition guys did in 440 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: thirty seven. And they still aren't and they still aren't 441 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: very much. Still part of the conversation. People to act 442 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: like the backpack taxes, this brand new idea. But yeah, 443 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: it's just retreading a grid idea. Well that well, yeah, 444 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: I mean we went from the bone yard of a continent. Here. 445 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: You can see deer tracks in our street outside downtown, 446 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: uh held on the capital and you would you would 447 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: agree that there are more people now than there were 448 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: and yeah the turn of the century. But we have 449 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: deer in our cities, bears in our orchards, and goose 450 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: poop when every golf shoe in Montana goose poop. But 451 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: I don't golf, but that's what they tell me, well exactly, um, 452 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: And that you know that the tax that was imposed 453 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: during that the passing of that that act was an 454 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: existing exercise tax right of eleven that was applied and 455 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: it's still eleven percent today, right, And the states have 456 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: to match it. And if in the states cannot divert 457 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: their hunting license dollar into other funding, other parts of 458 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: state government. You know, they have two years to spend 459 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: those dollars on what they're appropriated for. They lose them. 460 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,959 Speaker 1: It's it's a it's it's not many are lost, and 461 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: it's you know, only to look and see how efficient 462 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: this is and how useful it is for our society, 463 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: for our wildlife. To see how long it's lasted. Yeah, 464 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: it's how long it's lasted and well, and to go 465 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: out on the landscape and like walk. The Southern River 466 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: Game Range is a classic example of the Pittman Robertson 467 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: act standing they're ready. And this was before the Landing 468 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: Water Conservation Fund and an absolute critical moment in fact 469 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: that that's a great story from a variety of reasons. 470 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: Because the as the elks started to recover in the 471 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: wild lands to the west of the Rocky Mountain Front, 472 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: they started getting out on private ground. There was a 473 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: landowner named Rathbone who advertised in the New York paper 474 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: for machine gunners to come out and shoot the elk. 475 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: Wait this. Uh, this was probably in the forties, and 476 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 1: the source of this is a little book written by 477 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: a guy named Tom Selt, who was this Great Falls 478 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: area sportsman and books shop owner. And uh, they formed 479 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: the fishing game, formed a Sun River Conservation Council to 480 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 1: address this conflict on the front. The landowner Rathbone, he 481 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: shoots one cow elk. The game Warden's bust him, so 482 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: the thing goes into the court. Montana Supreme Court says, 483 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: when you buy land in Montana, now you buy it 484 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 1: with full knowledge of the presence of wildlife for which 485 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: there is no recourse. And that says, okay, boys, live 486 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 1: with it. You don't own the critters on it. That's right. 487 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 1: That was a critical stage. But then to get relief, 488 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: the Sun River Conservation Council forms. Thomas Selt was its chair. 489 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: Another rancher from Shotto was on it named Carl Malone. 490 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: The decide they got to buy winter range outside the 491 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,760 Speaker 1: wilderness areas where the elk have to come and heavy 492 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: snow and uh. This one landowner puts up his place 493 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 1: for sale. H and his name slips my mind at 494 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: the moment, but fishing fishing game proceeds to try and 495 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: buy it, but to hit a deadline where they have 496 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: to make a ten thousand dollar down payment by five 497 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: o'clock on a particular day, and even then if nobody 498 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: can move that fast in government, because there was a 499 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: lot of money, had a competitive buyer there. Thomas Selt 500 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: and Karl Malone, the book owner and the rancher put 501 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,959 Speaker 1: up five grand out of their own pockets to hold 502 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 1: that little fishing game could go through and buy it. 503 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: And that starts the progression of these jewels along the 504 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,280 Speaker 1: Rocky Mountain Front, which now include Ear Mountain, Black Leaf, 505 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 1: Pine Beot Theater, Roosevelt Memorial Ranch. And Uh, it's paradise. 506 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: It is paradise, and it's windy. It's quite windy on 507 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: the drop. Oh my god, on the drive up here 508 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: to I was gonna get blown off the road. Well 509 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: here you come now into the into the fray. Uh 510 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,359 Speaker 1: when do you first remember? Now we talked about you're 511 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: shooting that big giant buck over there, and then then 512 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 1: when you were twenty years old, But when do you professionally, 513 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: when do you remember first having the urge to take 514 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:43,360 Speaker 1: take action and and you know, join a game agency 515 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: or join a conservation agency and then and then how 516 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: did it happen for you? I wouldn't go just a 517 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,479 Speaker 1: couple of years back before that. Having interviewed Jim before, 518 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 1: I want to I want to hear how you came 519 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: to Montana. Then get into this question because it's a 520 00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: god's good story. That's why I brought Sam for an 521 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: other reason. He's handsome, man, but that doesn't help much 522 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: on the podcast. Then you have to take my word 523 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 1: for people. Yes, you're coming to Montana, but let's hear 524 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: that one. Okay. Um first, a humorous anecdote. And when 525 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 1: I was going to high school, they would use career 526 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: testing kind of things, and your big counselors to tell you, 527 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: you know what your aptitude tests, I think they called them. 528 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 1: And I took my aptitude tests and one day the 529 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 1: counselor called me in and she said, you know, I 530 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:42,280 Speaker 1: reviewed your aptitude here. But since there's no curriculum for hermits, 531 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 1: why don't you go into fishing game that's made up? 532 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 1: But it wasn't not in high school, you know. Well, 533 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: I was actually even before that when mother would say 534 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 1: outside and play. And I lived in a midsize community 535 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,919 Speaker 1: on the west shore of Lake Michigan, and we could 536 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: walk beyond the city limits to little wood lots that 537 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,840 Speaker 1: we just called them the woods, and that's where we 538 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: would go play when mother said go outside and play. 539 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 1: And we had an interest in nature, you know, we'd 540 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: collect little things we'd find in the woods and put 541 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: them in our rooms and stuff of that of that kind. 542 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 1: And uh, then I got into the Boy Scouts because 543 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 1: they had a camp. And that was kind of a 544 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: funny story there because my older brother he went and 545 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,360 Speaker 1: he got homesick the first week he was home. Gone 546 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: campus only a week long. I went two years later, 547 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: and I begged my parents to leave me there all 548 00:38:55,280 --> 00:39:02,240 Speaker 1: summer's wanted to do. And then I in time became 549 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: a counselor or junior counselor, and my dad run a 550 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: gas station and sold Christmas trees and yeah, take a 551 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: break here, the diuretics drying me out. So you were 552 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: a counselor at the Boy Scout cancer decided that was 553 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,800 Speaker 1: that was the way. My my dad went to northern 554 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: Wisconsin just to get trees to sell on this Christmas 555 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: tree Christmas tree lot. And one of those trips, one 556 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: of his buddies bought a deer from an Indian and 557 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: I got a foot. It's about a deer to eat, yeah, 558 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: And so at summer camp, I would take that deer 559 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 1: foot and I would mark the woods because there were 560 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 1: no deer living there, and then we'd have nature hikes 561 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 1: and we'd show the Scouts the deer print and then 562 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: night it looks fresh. Yeah, well, one night a week 563 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: we'd have a night hike. One of the councilors would 564 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 1: take the old mounted deer head out of the mess 565 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 1: hall sitting in the swamp with it, we followed the 566 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: tracks down through the trail to the swamp and then 567 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 1: shine that deer and they all went home thinking they've 568 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: seen their first deer. Took some imagination. Then, yeah, well 569 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: that was early exposure, I guess, uh playfully. Um. Then 570 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: there were a couple of famous grouse biologists working in Wisconsin, 571 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: the Fred and fran Hammerstrom, working on the prairie prairie chickens. 572 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: One of the other councilors at the camp, who was 573 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 1: several years senior to a few years senior to me, 574 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: he became a conservation aid at their at their study area, 575 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 1: and so I would go over and sit in the 576 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: blinds watching the prairie chickens dance, and I could see 577 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:16,840 Speaker 1: no other profession for myself. And then was it just 578 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 1: just the Can you describe what captivated you in that time? 579 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: Like what you know what? Watching watching these grouse dance, 580 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: you know, and looking at talking to the people who 581 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,839 Speaker 1: were doing They were both PhDs and beyond, but they 582 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 1: were studying the American the prairie chickens, and uh, we 583 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 1: got to participate. You know. We had the spotting scopes 584 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 1: and buyn ox and we would try to read the 585 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,800 Speaker 1: band numbers that were visible and things of that nature 586 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: to try to make a contribution and try to help. Uh. 587 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: I don't think probably at that time I had actually 588 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:03,840 Speaker 1: hunted and killed anything yet. Yeah, but that that certainly 589 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 1: was an interest. And then when you live on the 590 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,240 Speaker 1: shore Lake Michigan, you get kind of an aquatic bend 591 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:16,719 Speaker 1: and you take an interest in maybe fishing wildlife. And 592 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: one day after basketball practice, I was sitting in the 593 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:26,920 Speaker 1: bleachers watching some other level of our high school team 594 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 1: play or practice, and the head basketball coach sat down 595 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,840 Speaker 1: next to me asked me what I wanted to do 596 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,959 Speaker 1: for a career, and I said conservation, you know, because 597 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,400 Speaker 1: at the time it was Wisconsin Conservation Department that was 598 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: the fishing wildlife management agency. And he said, oh, well, 599 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: he said, maybe I have a contact for you. And 600 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,360 Speaker 1: of course, the guy who was the Bobcat coach in 601 00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,360 Speaker 1: the early fifties had been a coach at one of 602 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 1: the Wisconsin teachers college and so he knew the whole 603 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:09,440 Speaker 1: teacher network, you know, of of athletic coaches in the 604 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:13,919 Speaker 1: state of Wisconsin, and so my high school basketball coach 605 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,840 Speaker 1: put me in contact with uh Tony Storty, who was 606 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:23,320 Speaker 1: the head Bobcat coach, and they were trying to become 607 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 1: competitive because they hadn't beat the Grizzlies in Missoula since 608 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 1: nineteen o two. That was that was within Theodore Roosevelt 609 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:48,080 Speaker 1: was president. So that led to recruitment to Montana, which 610 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:49,920 Speaker 1: has got a whole bunch of other stories that have 611 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 1: nothing to do with hunting and fishing. But you know, 612 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 1: I imagine i'd like those two making the team and everything. 613 00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:01,480 Speaker 1: And then in nineteen fifty six, that's season, we beat 614 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,600 Speaker 1: the Grizzlies in Missoula for the first time since nineteen 615 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: o two. So, uh, they got their money's worth. But 616 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 1: they had gone, you know, through the recruiting net to 617 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,080 Speaker 1: the industrial heart land and so to speak, where all 618 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: the thugs were hanging out playing, playing the game. But 619 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 1: I grew up, you know, hour's drive from Packer Stadium. 620 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:27,960 Speaker 1: What else are you gonna do? Look at this? Yeah, 621 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 1: we have a photo right here of you doing your 622 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: best like football stance. That's my freshman year at Bozeman's 623 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:41,439 Speaker 1: and what years that that was fifty three. You're looking 624 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 1: pretty good there. He looked like you might have been like, 625 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,839 Speaker 1: what are you running back? No? I was a tight 626 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:57,040 Speaker 1: end and linebackers, and I got my recruitment reputation because 627 00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:01,040 Speaker 1: I made All Conference middle line backer and the Fox 628 00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 1: River Valley Conference, which is Green Bay Manna to walk 629 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,719 Speaker 1: FONDI like, uh so it was kind of a competitive 630 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,799 Speaker 1: high school environment. That's corn fed football country right there. Yeah. 631 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,359 Speaker 1: And then you those are sixty minute days you played 632 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,719 Speaker 1: both ways? Yeah, yeah, and now and then and then 633 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,000 Speaker 1: I imagine you were playing football in Montana and started 634 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 1: looking around and he saw, well these mountains, this is 635 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,279 Speaker 1: well I had an imagination. I mean, when I met 636 00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,680 Speaker 1: with the coach and then got to talking to Montana, 637 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,000 Speaker 1: I had to run to the encyclopedia to see where 638 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:42,279 Speaker 1: that it was. You know, but there's all kinds of 639 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:46,279 Speaker 1: stories buried there. We'll try to keep to the hunting 640 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,279 Speaker 1: ones if you can. Yeah, it's easy to go off 641 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 1: on tangents. I like, ta um, So you're in Montana 642 00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,120 Speaker 1: and can you you know, and you're still here right 643 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,800 Speaker 1: now any years later, can you tell us kind of 644 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:05,640 Speaker 1: what you know, what how it sank? In for you, like, 645 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,279 Speaker 1: this is the place for me, this is you know, 646 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:09,880 Speaker 1: this is the life I want to lead. Go outside 647 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:14,000 Speaker 1: and appreciate this. When you read about it before coming out, 648 00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,480 Speaker 1: you know, you realize this is a mountain of rocky 649 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,799 Speaker 1: mountains and all that happy stuff, and you have something 650 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:24,600 Speaker 1: in your imagination that that's pretty vivid. And of course 651 00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 1: when you come to Montana riding on the train at 652 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,600 Speaker 1: that time, we woke up somewhere just west of Glen 653 00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:41,920 Speaker 1: Dive and started looking for the mountains. You know. But 654 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:47,040 Speaker 1: eventually when you uh leave Billings, you can pick up 655 00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,520 Speaker 1: the bare tooths and before you get to Livingston you 656 00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,440 Speaker 1: can spot the crazy and then you go over Bozeman 657 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,320 Speaker 1: Pass and then you're right in the middle of it. 658 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:59,160 Speaker 1: And uh, I have no idea you know, where to 659 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:04,160 Speaker 1: get started, but that's how you get there. And you 660 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:08,200 Speaker 1: got there, did you feel um almost immediately drawn to 661 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,560 Speaker 1: those mountains? And you know, did that starts to define 662 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,400 Speaker 1: what you They were what I was looking for, And uh, 663 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,880 Speaker 1: it wasn't a disappointment for certain and it was all 664 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:23,360 Speaker 1: imagine that the you know, in the imagination of seventeen 665 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:28,239 Speaker 1: eighteen year old kid, eighteen year old football player yeah, 666 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,080 Speaker 1: never been west of the Mississippi, never been east of 667 00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:37,000 Speaker 1: the west shore of like Michigan. But I've been to 668 00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:42,719 Speaker 1: Green Bay and and and my dad was athlete. In fact, 669 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,560 Speaker 1: he played in the first season there was an NBA. 670 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,279 Speaker 1: Really yeah, and what year was that? I have to 671 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:53,560 Speaker 1: keep as I'll have I'll look it up for you 672 00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:55,600 Speaker 1: before you leave. You'll look it up. We will look 673 00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,160 Speaker 1: it up. Is there? Um, we haven't. We haven't got 674 00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:03,040 Speaker 1: to your first hunting experiences yet. Um, tell us about those, 675 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,759 Speaker 1: tell us about how it how it hooked you. Well, 676 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,520 Speaker 1: I had to wait six months. Well, I started trying 677 00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,960 Speaker 1: to be an archery hunter in Wisconsin, but there were 678 00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,440 Speaker 1: there no deer in the county where I was living. 679 00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,200 Speaker 1: But north of us there was a place called Point 680 00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,360 Speaker 1: Beach State Park that you could hunt in and and 681 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: that's where I probably saw my first deer in the wild. 682 00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:28,440 Speaker 1: And I'm up there with a bow and arrow, and 683 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,719 Speaker 1: I have, you know, not a prayer. You're thinking, I 684 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,680 Speaker 1: hope this isn't the Taxi Germany deer. Somebody's playing a 685 00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,239 Speaker 1: truck on pretty close, I mean, And I saw one 686 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,480 Speaker 1: deer and I shot an arrow in its direction, and 687 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,480 Speaker 1: I knew it was out of range and beyond the 688 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,399 Speaker 1: range of the arrow, but I wanted to go home 689 00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:51,919 Speaker 1: and tell my buddies I got a shot, and that yeah, 690 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,800 Speaker 1: that ends up. It all spins back into you know, 691 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:56,719 Speaker 1: I'm sure in that area of the world, I'm not 692 00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 1: hunted it myself. But today and that are of the world, 693 00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:02,560 Speaker 1: there are many many deer. Yeah. All my brothers, sons, 694 00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:08,080 Speaker 1: uh shoot deer and they never leave the county. So 695 00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 1: I just shows you the restoration of Pittman Robertson there. 696 00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,200 Speaker 1: You know that was passed when I was one year old, 697 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:16,880 Speaker 1: and now you know you shot at one deer. But 698 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,359 Speaker 1: now you go there and that's it's a tradition, that's 699 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,839 Speaker 1: part of that landscape, white tail deer hunting. And then 700 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,520 Speaker 1: when I got to Montana, why I had to wait 701 00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,600 Speaker 1: six months, and so I got into that right now. 702 00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,560 Speaker 1: I got through got there in August of UH fifty 703 00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:40,399 Speaker 1: three for preseason camp, and then in January I hit 704 00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:46,200 Speaker 1: the six months mark and they had an extended deer 705 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:52,000 Speaker 1: season in the Bridger Mountains. I borrowed a gun, drove 706 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:57,120 Speaker 1: out there and no hunter education or anything, and shot 707 00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:01,640 Speaker 1: a doe deer. I'm gonna up in the in the 708 00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,360 Speaker 1: men's dorm and left the windows open, and it was 709 00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,120 Speaker 1: a vacant room, and all my buddies and I had 710 00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,959 Speaker 1: a hot plate and we just cut off a chunk 711 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:14,319 Speaker 1: of bringing dead deer in the dorm room. Jim Well, 712 00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:19,120 Speaker 1: it was a vacant dorm and in a dilapidated dormitory. 713 00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,840 Speaker 1: It was called the Hudson House. It was a former 714 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:27,480 Speaker 1: military barracks converted to a college dorm and it was 715 00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,640 Speaker 1: and the coach had promised us free rooms, so it 716 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:36,080 Speaker 1: puts ten of us in an recreation room in this old, 717 00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:40,279 Speaker 1: dilapidated dorm, and of course ten jocks living in a 718 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:45,200 Speaker 1: room got kind of rowdy. Yeah, handful of them were 719 00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:47,600 Speaker 1: g I Bill guys, so they've been around a little 720 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:51,239 Speaker 1: bit and they were that's where they were recruited from. 721 00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:57,280 Speaker 1: And uh, one night we had the super Bash party 722 00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:02,040 Speaker 1: made horrible, No, it's fine, you're fine, you're here now, 723 00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:08,120 Speaker 1: horrible on a racket and things. And the very first 724 00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:13,279 Speaker 1: thing in the morning, the Marines in our room, the 725 00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 1: ex Marines that were part of our group. They get 726 00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,920 Speaker 1: us all up. We scrubbed that place down until it 727 00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:24,279 Speaker 1: shone sparkled and then it had one table in the 728 00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,520 Speaker 1: middle of the room, and we sat there with our 729 00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,160 Speaker 1: books opened in front of us. When the DNA men 730 00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:34,160 Speaker 1: must through, you're all looking like, did you guys tie 731 00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:39,640 Speaker 1: sweaters around your shoulders. We'll never forget his expression, I 732 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:47,800 Speaker 1: mean his jaw flat hit the floor, Hello sir and 733 00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:52,080 Speaker 1: describing me like, can you remember you know that first, dear, 734 00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,200 Speaker 1: like you remember having some emotions around that or thinking 735 00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:57,160 Speaker 1: that this is an important action or was it just 736 00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,480 Speaker 1: in your youth? Well, I borrowed the gun. We had 737 00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,279 Speaker 1: a peep site. I never even shot it, you know, 738 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:09,480 Speaker 1: went out on the hillside above ranchers building that the 739 00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:15,720 Speaker 1: rancher was a butcher and a booster, and so, yuh, 740 00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,160 Speaker 1: I see this deer, it's close. I put the sight 741 00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,080 Speaker 1: on it. I pulled the trigger and the deer is gone. 742 00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:27,560 Speaker 1: And I will walk up to where the deer was 743 00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,360 Speaker 1: standing and she's down and I hit her right in 744 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:35,360 Speaker 1: the head. I didn't when my one of my Marine 745 00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,680 Speaker 1: Corps buddies saw it, he said, well that was a 746 00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:41,680 Speaker 1: good shot, right in the head. And I said, well 747 00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,960 Speaker 1: that's all I could see at the time. When you 748 00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:49,399 Speaker 1: bet John Wayne, yeah, part right exactly times you gotta 749 00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,879 Speaker 1: shoot him. The head. Yeah, that was deer number one. 750 00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,919 Speaker 1: And of course the landowner who gave us access there, 751 00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:00,480 Speaker 1: it was actually the town butcher, and so he took 752 00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:02,400 Speaker 1: care of cut it up for us and everything that 753 00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:04,879 Speaker 1: was pretty fancy. And then you're eating the dorm room. Yeah, 754 00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:11,120 Speaker 1: well that was a different dear. Okay, um moving forward, 755 00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:15,239 Speaker 1: like you you get out of college, you survived. You 756 00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,920 Speaker 1: didn't have any you know, any two crazy stories for 757 00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:23,520 Speaker 1: he didn't get kicked out. Uh went into the third 758 00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:26,880 Speaker 1: Infantry Division for a couple of years, which was customary 759 00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,000 Speaker 1: at the time. I got to go to Bomberg, Germany, 760 00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:35,120 Speaker 1: and uh so, in the fall of fifty eight, the 761 00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:39,360 Speaker 1: Bumberg Riders won the U. S. Army europe Football Championship. 762 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:44,400 Speaker 1: So we had a tradition going there. And I was 763 00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:49,200 Speaker 1: living off base because I was on temporary duty to 764 00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:53,560 Speaker 1: the football team, and and uh so during the season 765 00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:58,520 Speaker 1: you lived anyway he wanted to between practices, and it 766 00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:02,040 Speaker 1: was called temporary duty. And I was freshly married and 767 00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:07,040 Speaker 1: living in a little cold water apartment to block away 768 00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:12,759 Speaker 1: from the military base, which was pretty cushy. And the 769 00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,120 Speaker 1: punch line here is that's called temporary duty t d 770 00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,880 Speaker 1: Y and the coaches pep talk before every game was 771 00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:27,680 Speaker 1: do or die for t D Y Y. Yeah. But 772 00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:32,239 Speaker 1: I also took time to join the local base rod 773 00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:36,320 Speaker 1: and gun club and tried to get qualified to be 774 00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,759 Speaker 1: a hunter in Germany and doing the studying and all 775 00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:43,920 Speaker 1: that stuff, and became quite familiar with the European methodology 776 00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:48,200 Speaker 1: are a component of that, and it's a very respectful 777 00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,880 Speaker 1: relationship between the hunter and the animal, but it's not 778 00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:57,360 Speaker 1: for everybody. And had I been qualified, then I'd have 779 00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:01,000 Speaker 1: to wait for an invitation to go hunt bay some 780 00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:06,320 Speaker 1: with the hunter, the Jagermeister, the hunt master, and they 781 00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:10,439 Speaker 1: had arrangements were that could be accomplished. But I wasn't 782 00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:13,240 Speaker 1: there long enough to actually have a hunt in Germany. 783 00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,839 Speaker 1: And you're to study the flora and the fauna. Yeah, 784 00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,880 Speaker 1: and you know, one of the part of their rituals 785 00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:23,520 Speaker 1: was called the last bissing, and that is when you 786 00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:29,359 Speaker 1: shoot an animal, you take whatever is uh I been 787 00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:34,840 Speaker 1: feeding him and give it a branch and put it 788 00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:38,319 Speaker 1: into his mouth as the last night. So, I mean, 789 00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:42,600 Speaker 1: there's a lot of respect and it's it's a kind 790 00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:46,399 Speaker 1: of an honorable thing to become the hunter. And in fact, 791 00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,319 Speaker 1: we were sitting in a cafe one night, my wife 792 00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:53,000 Speaker 1: and I and somebody comes into the door and busting 793 00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:56,560 Speaker 1: into the door. There's been a crash on accident out 794 00:55:56,600 --> 00:56:00,200 Speaker 1: on the roadway, and he said, is there are a 795 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:04,040 Speaker 1: hunter in the room because they learned first aid and 796 00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:08,720 Speaker 1: patching stuff. And uh, I never quite forgot that because 797 00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:13,040 Speaker 1: that's what the just citizen was looking for, somebody that 798 00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:15,960 Speaker 1: had training. Yeah, I mean, I we've talked about it 799 00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:18,840 Speaker 1: on this podcast before. The way the European tradition was 800 00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:20,920 Speaker 1: held in the way, you know, the way it is 801 00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,400 Speaker 1: the modern European tradition has kind of been twisted a bit, 802 00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,800 Speaker 1: but I'm sure in those years, you know, the hunter 803 00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:33,120 Speaker 1: was still the center point that sometimes of the community. UM. 804 00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:36,840 Speaker 1: We had a fellow on that grew up in Czechoslovakia 805 00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:40,279 Speaker 1: and it talked about the idea of a hunter. UM. 806 00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:43,840 Speaker 1: The term that used for hunter also meant thinker, like 807 00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,920 Speaker 1: one who thinks, someone who was able to look at 808 00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:48,960 Speaker 1: a group of animals and pick out the one that 809 00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,120 Speaker 1: is best taken in that scenario. And so the respect 810 00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:56,440 Speaker 1: for the animal was was um was put at the 811 00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:59,600 Speaker 1: feet of the hunter. It was included and in their 812 00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:03,160 Speaker 1: trained and what they expected of the hunter and the hunter, 813 00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:04,880 Speaker 1: you know, had to be exalted because they had to 814 00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:07,920 Speaker 1: make these very serious decisions about which animals to take, 815 00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,360 Speaker 1: which to which to leave, and how to manage, you know, 816 00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:16,160 Speaker 1: the entire ecosystem really and what they were doing. True. True, 817 00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,800 Speaker 1: So we're getting so he spent two years there, you 818 00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,080 Speaker 1: told us, right, and then you come back to back 819 00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:26,040 Speaker 1: to Montana, right, And coming back to Montana, Um, what's 820 00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:28,960 Speaker 1: next for you? Well, graduate school and I did a 821 00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:34,080 Speaker 1: fishery study out of out of Bozeman, uh got a 822 00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:39,600 Speaker 1: master's degree in April of sixty one. Then I went 823 00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:45,000 Speaker 1: up to Great Grade Falls as a phish biologist, and 824 00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:47,560 Speaker 1: after a year and a half of that, they moved 825 00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:51,640 Speaker 1: me to Glasgow as a fish manager. And after four 826 00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:54,520 Speaker 1: or five years up there, they moved me into Helena 827 00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:00,560 Speaker 1: is the head of the water resource development section. And 828 00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:07,680 Speaker 1: then in nineteen six nine, Anaconda wanted to open an 829 00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:10,120 Speaker 1: open pit mine at the head of the Blackfoot River. 830 00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:15,120 Speaker 1: So that became one of my projects to build a 831 00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:22,400 Speaker 1: baseline study at the fishing wildlife up there. And the 832 00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:28,160 Speaker 1: land board was confronted by a room full of Missoula 833 00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:31,600 Speaker 1: College students the day they had to make the decision 834 00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:35,600 Speaker 1: on whether or not to give the state lease to 835 00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:41,480 Speaker 1: the Anaconda Company for a dam on Alice Creek to 836 00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:46,640 Speaker 1: supply water for this mine, Hittleston Mine, And then the 837 00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:50,680 Speaker 1: students packed the place totally out of the blue kind 838 00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:55,280 Speaker 1: of although it couldn't have been, but where did they 839 00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:58,720 Speaker 1: come from? And the landboard hung up to the two 840 00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:04,040 Speaker 1: so they couldn't issue the easement, and the governor forced 841 00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:08,520 Speaker 1: Anderson turned to the director of the fishing game and 842 00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:14,600 Speaker 1: leave the profanity out. But he said, you caused this problem, 843 00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:19,520 Speaker 1: now you solve it. The director came back, gave me 844 00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:23,920 Speaker 1: the project and said, we're going to turn water resource 845 00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:29,960 Speaker 1: development into ecological services division. And so that's where we started. 846 00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:37,320 Speaker 1: And then we charged Anaconda company for half the baseline 847 00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:40,200 Speaker 1: study that we told him, Look, we've got to have 848 00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,720 Speaker 1: some help, some financial helped put some people in the 849 00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:46,360 Speaker 1: field to get this data. And uh, that sort of 850 00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:50,040 Speaker 1: started it where we started the pattern of making the 851 00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:54,040 Speaker 1: applicant pay for whatever it was that we needed to 852 00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:59,360 Speaker 1: do in the field. And while all this is going on, 853 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:09,040 Speaker 1: Alvador Aliendi seizes Anaconda's hold Eggs and Chile. The company collapsed. Yeah, 854 01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:12,400 Speaker 1: so my book I write, so when the salmon fly 855 01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:17,480 Speaker 1: rises to when the trout takes your salmon fly off 856 01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:25,560 Speaker 1: the surface of the big Blackfoot River. Thanks Salvador, we'd 857 01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:27,600 Speaker 1: had a Berkeley pit, that they could have had a 858 01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:30,840 Speaker 1: Berkeley pit at the head of the Blackfoot River. As 859 01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:32,960 Speaker 1: you speak about these things, it just it's amazing to 860 01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:38,880 Speaker 1: me how similar it is today, the debates that are 861 01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:42,440 Speaker 1: happening today, the battles that are happening today, and how 862 01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:46,440 Speaker 1: the two sides um are very similar to even today. 863 01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:48,840 Speaker 1: I mean when even going back into the time of 864 01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:52,959 Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt and railroad ticoons and and and timber baron, 865 01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:57,160 Speaker 1: timber barons fighting fighting against formation of the National forests. Well, 866 01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:01,160 Speaker 1: that's the ultimate beauty of the dema oocracy of the wild, 867 01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:05,960 Speaker 1: because anybody can step up and take a shot at it. 868 01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:11,160 Speaker 1: And that's what's happened. You know, at one point they 869 01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:16,480 Speaker 1: were New York City patricians that they had a philosophy 870 01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:21,840 Speaker 1: that because they were rich, that those two who much 871 01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:26,560 Speaker 1: has given much as expected, and they actually lived by 872 01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:34,080 Speaker 1: that code of their own and that's why they these 873 01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:37,840 Speaker 1: philanthropic actions of guys like Roosevelt. He didn't need to 874 01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:43,240 Speaker 1: work you know different Pincho didn't need a job, but 875 01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:48,800 Speaker 1: they took on the mantle of the leadership and reformation. 876 01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:51,920 Speaker 1: And yeah, well to your point, I think if they hadn't, 877 01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:56,520 Speaker 1: someone else would have hopefully, you know. But it seems 878 01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:59,400 Speaker 1: like it's just innate in our in our in this continent, 879 01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:01,400 Speaker 1: and in the people that landed here and formed this 880 01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:05,960 Speaker 1: this country specifically, it was innate in them to value 881 01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:10,360 Speaker 1: the resource. Um, that's why I believe in an englistening 882 01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:13,280 Speaker 1: you talk, I believe that that I'm glad that those 883 01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:17,520 Speaker 1: you know, the forefathers of conservation did what they did 884 01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:26,600 Speaker 1: and had the balls of a moose. That's mostly Theodore Roosevelt. Yeah, 885 01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:30,200 Speaker 1: I mean yours. When I saw the hundredth anniversary of 886 01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:34,200 Speaker 1: his presidency coming, I told my sons, I said anything 887 01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:38,120 Speaker 1: by or about tr For Christmas. I had to go 888 01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:43,880 Speaker 1: buy the bookcase. But well, that's one Christmas is supply. 889 01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:47,480 Speaker 1: And it's amazing because you get into it and then 890 01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:51,720 Speaker 1: you talk about the trail crossings and intersections and the 891 01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:55,840 Speaker 1: fact that's amazing. Theodore Roosevelt and Grandville Stewart were both 892 01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:59,760 Speaker 1: members of the Montana Stockgrowers and they met at the 893 01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:04,600 Speaker 1: ock Roars meeting in Miles City, and at that meeting, 894 01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:08,600 Speaker 1: one of the authors that wrote about it said that 895 01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:13,560 Speaker 1: Roosevelt backed Stewart on every issue that was raised on 896 01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:19,280 Speaker 1: the overstocking of the range, and then Stewart from that 897 01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:24,880 Speaker 1: from that stock Roarers meeting was going north in pursuit 898 01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:29,000 Speaker 1: of some horse thieves that were hiding out in the 899 01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:35,200 Speaker 1: Missouri Breaks. Roosevelt tried to sign up himself and the 900 01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:41,680 Speaker 1: Marquis de Morris to join the posse. Stewart said, no way, 901 01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:47,280 Speaker 1: you guys are way too high profile. We're not right. 902 01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:51,520 Speaker 1: You're not riding with us on this particular adventure. Man 903 01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:56,000 Speaker 1: with balls, then there are going to go saddle up 904 01:03:56,040 --> 01:04:01,840 Speaker 1: and go to hang some guy in the brakes. He 905 01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:05,240 Speaker 1: went to DC and it's hanging. Well. Then I read 906 01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:10,080 Speaker 1: another book about James Willard Schultz going down the Missouri 907 01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:18,760 Speaker 1: River on the hundredth anniversary of Lewis and Clark, and 908 01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,920 Speaker 1: Schultz describes his trip down to Missouri and there's no 909 01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:26,480 Speaker 1: Damn or Fort Peck or anything, but he gets in 910 01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:28,960 Speaker 1: one part of his book he tells the story about 911 01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:33,360 Speaker 1: visiting with some branchers down in the breaks, and they 912 01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:37,040 Speaker 1: tell the story about Stewart coming down and hanging the 913 01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:46,480 Speaker 1: wrong guy. Have a research that connection yet, Well you 914 01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:52,240 Speaker 1: spent he spent forty years at that Fish and Wildlife. Two. 915 01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:58,520 Speaker 1: We'll round up, round it up for you. Um, before 916 01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:05,080 Speaker 1: you retired, I flunked out of retirement. And then, uh, 917 01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:07,600 Speaker 1: as we were talking about before, I think to fast 918 01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:10,320 Speaker 1: forward to what what I think everyone really needs to 919 01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:12,920 Speaker 1: hear from you and what I really want I think 920 01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:15,840 Speaker 1: a lot of hunters want to explore his hunting ethics? Right? 921 01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:23,440 Speaker 1: And after your tenure UM with Montana, you went to 922 01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:27,280 Speaker 1: went about penning a book called Beyond fair Chase, right, 923 01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:30,000 Speaker 1: and we said we we double checked before starting the podcast. 924 01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:35,720 Speaker 1: It was published in nineteen correct, correct, Um, take us 925 01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:39,439 Speaker 1: through why ethics for you? Why, after all this time 926 01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:42,720 Speaker 1: spending the hunting community, consolation community, why ethics was important 927 01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:46,480 Speaker 1: to you while why fair Chase was something that um 928 01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:48,840 Speaker 1: was a pillar in your life and why you felt 929 01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:52,760 Speaker 1: the need to address it at that point. Okay, I'm 930 01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:56,880 Speaker 1: leaving fishing game in the in the eighties, lady, eighties, 931 01:05:56,960 --> 01:06:01,160 Speaker 1: I'm wrapping things up kind of. That's when I had 932 01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:04,280 Speaker 1: gone back to Washington, d C. That's when we were 933 01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:08,400 Speaker 1: killing every buffalo that set foot outside of Yellowstone National Park. 934 01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:13,720 Speaker 1: And that's when hunting was being vilified, UH, coast to coast, 935 01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:15,520 Speaker 1: And this is kind of like the pinnacle of the 936 01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:19,920 Speaker 1: hunting participation at some level when it was really and 937 01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:29,800 Speaker 1: I guess I was aware of the conservation side of 938 01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:33,600 Speaker 1: what the hunters were sponsoring, and that story was not 939 01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:39,360 Speaker 1: being told by anybody. And so I came back and 940 01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:42,960 Speaker 1: we started the Governor's Symposium series on the North American 941 01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:48,320 Speaker 1: hunting heritage under when Stan Stevens's first term as governor, 942 01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:52,560 Speaker 1: and we started talking about, you know, what's wrong with 943 01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:57,200 Speaker 1: us and what's right about us as hunters? And we 944 01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:04,400 Speaker 1: held seven national conferences UH in the process. And of 945 01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:09,680 Speaker 1: course that when you got a started inviting speakers and 946 01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:12,240 Speaker 1: become a speaker and stuff, you have to start doing 947 01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:16,440 Speaker 1: some study in remember, Like it strikes me, though, do 948 01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:18,640 Speaker 1: you remember when you say that you want to what's 949 01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:20,480 Speaker 1: right with us and what's wrong with us? Like that's 950 01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:23,520 Speaker 1: that's a pretty heavy statement for me. Do you do 951 01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:26,600 Speaker 1: you remember back in time to why that you you 952 01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:30,280 Speaker 1: wanted to explore explore those things like particularly what's wrong 953 01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:34,800 Speaker 1: with us? Well, what's wrong with us? Was? I guess 954 01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:38,120 Speaker 1: the consummate thing was how we were treating the buffalo 955 01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:43,880 Speaker 1: coming out of Yellowstone Park. Everyone setting foot into Montana 956 01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:47,760 Speaker 1: was to be shot. And that was so alien to 957 01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:53,640 Speaker 1: the conservation ethic that had restored while abundance of wildlife 958 01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:58,840 Speaker 1: um clear across the state of Montana that I stumbled 959 01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:04,920 Speaker 1: into the middle of a dear recovery boom of the 960 01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:08,080 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties. I was know a great hunter. I mean 961 01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:14,720 Speaker 1: that were deer were everywhere. To start adding, when you 962 01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:19,080 Speaker 1: know things up and and just why a person is 963 01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:22,920 Speaker 1: even inclined to go out in pursuit of whether it 964 01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:25,840 Speaker 1: was a jack or a cotton tail rabbit, or a 965 01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:29,560 Speaker 1: pheasant or a rough grouse. I mean, that was my 966 01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:33,160 Speaker 1: total bag of as a hunter before coming to Montana. 967 01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:36,679 Speaker 1: Was a couple of cotton tail rabbits in an apple 968 01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:40,560 Speaker 1: orchard because the orchard guidn't like a nipping on the 969 01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:44,479 Speaker 1: basis of his trees. They're probably pretty good things and 970 01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:48,840 Speaker 1: rabbits exactly, although my mother was quite puzzled what to 971 01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:51,519 Speaker 1: do with it. Did you did you ever? Did you 972 01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:53,800 Speaker 1: find yourself to be unique in the in the thoughts 973 01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:56,519 Speaker 1: that you were having around um, the examining the y 974 01:08:56,680 --> 01:09:01,920 Speaker 1: or the ethics, No, and uh here I tend to 975 01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:09,720 Speaker 1: maybe make some stuff up because the competition for the 976 01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:15,320 Speaker 1: hunter's attention had turned to you know, did you get 977 01:09:15,360 --> 01:09:19,640 Speaker 1: your limit? How big was your buck? And it still persists. 978 01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:22,920 Speaker 1: I'm glad I never measured any of my I am 979 01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:28,439 Speaker 1: just won't do it because it's just degrading. And then 980 01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:36,479 Speaker 1: you realize, well, there's more here to that. And I 981 01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:39,640 Speaker 1: had a consummate experience, you know, I mean, after all, 982 01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:43,920 Speaker 1: the stuff is twenty five years with the Sinebar Foundation 983 01:09:44,160 --> 01:09:52,000 Speaker 1: funding conservation, environmental protection, wildlife restoration, and then fifteen years 984 01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:59,880 Speaker 1: with o'rien and what that adds to the personal to 985 01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:05,920 Speaker 1: experience becomes over overwhelming. And a couple of seasons ago, 986 01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:10,439 Speaker 1: I'm stumbling up into We used to live eight miles 987 01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:13,160 Speaker 1: south of town and just out the back door, did 988 01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:16,400 Speaker 1: lots and lots of hunting. But I go to an 989 01:10:16,439 --> 01:10:19,200 Speaker 1: little familiar place in the dark and I sit there 990 01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:22,880 Speaker 1: because gals coming up the other side. Your wife, yeah, 991 01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:27,640 Speaker 1: and she's liable to, you know, start some elkout. So 992 01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:30,560 Speaker 1: I'm sitting in one of the passes where they sometimes 993 01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:35,400 Speaker 1: go as the hunter, as the hunter is known to do. 994 01:10:36,479 --> 01:10:40,400 Speaker 1: So I'm sitting there in a pre dawn and I'm 995 01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:45,320 Speaker 1: looking down the trail. I came in what looks like 996 01:10:45,439 --> 01:10:48,120 Speaker 1: a father and two sons come walking up the trail, 997 01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:55,080 Speaker 1: and I'm just sitting there. Excuse me. The father sees 998 01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:58,559 Speaker 1: me and he halts the boys. And they're like poster 999 01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:03,599 Speaker 1: children out of Hunter Education magazine. I mean, they're control 1000 01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:09,280 Speaker 1: of their weapons, undivided attention, standing there quietly in the background. 1001 01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:12,920 Speaker 1: And the father tiptoes up to this old guy sitting 1002 01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:18,040 Speaker 1: in the woods, and the father says, we don't want 1003 01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:20,360 Speaker 1: to get ahead of you. He whispers it to me, 1004 01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:24,680 Speaker 1: and I look and I'm thinking, here, I'm sitting on 1005 01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:30,080 Speaker 1: the National Forest public lands in pursuit of a restored 1006 01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:36,479 Speaker 1: wildlife population that's available to anybody. And the first three 1007 01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:41,360 Speaker 1: guys I meet want to defer to me. And I 1008 01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:44,480 Speaker 1: said that, you know what I'm thinking of Theodore Roosevelt 1009 01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:49,120 Speaker 1: talking about the generations within the womb of time is 1010 01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:52,360 Speaker 1: what he called us. Well, there were three generations right there, 1011 01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:56,600 Speaker 1: this old guy, me, the father, and two sons what 1012 01:11:56,720 --> 01:12:00,439 Speaker 1: I took to be two sons. And I look at 1013 01:12:01,320 --> 01:12:04,120 Speaker 1: the situation and I say back to the father, I 1014 01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:07,200 Speaker 1: think I know what I see here. And I want 1015 01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:11,759 Speaker 1: you ahead of me. And then he says, the youngest 1016 01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:15,040 Speaker 1: boy can shoot a cow if he sees one, and 1017 01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:17,640 Speaker 1: I give him a smile and the thumbs up, and 1018 01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:21,160 Speaker 1: the kid's face lights up in the dark with excitement 1019 01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:26,560 Speaker 1: of that moment. And in his anticipation is the excitement. 1020 01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:34,120 Speaker 1: And just again I lean on Roosevelt. We do these things, uh, 1021 01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:37,479 Speaker 1: for the economic well being of the people, But there 1022 01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:42,679 Speaker 1: is more. They also add to the beauty of living 1023 01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:46,160 Speaker 1: and therefore the joy of life. And there I was 1024 01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:49,000 Speaker 1: looking at the joy of life shining in the dark, 1025 01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:53,360 Speaker 1: and I thought, holy mackerel, well and all you've experienced 1026 01:12:53,400 --> 01:12:55,600 Speaker 1: in your life. Yeah, and then they walked up, and 1027 01:12:55,720 --> 01:13:00,240 Speaker 1: then you know, they walked ahead. I sat there and 1028 01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:04,200 Speaker 1: I baled. It was so emotionally moved by how this 1029 01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:09,519 Speaker 1: all fits. And when you see just these are people 1030 01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:12,080 Speaker 1: didn't know any of this stuff, I don't think, but 1031 01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:17,759 Speaker 1: maybe they did, but probably not. But the two boys, 1032 01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:23,000 Speaker 1: I know, we got my book. Well, I think that 1033 01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:26,479 Speaker 1: your emotion there is built in what you've seen and 1034 01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:30,240 Speaker 1: what in some ways you've shepherded in your life experienced, 1035 01:13:30,360 --> 01:13:35,519 Speaker 1: you know, And uh, to say that Bucker is a 1036 01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:40,639 Speaker 1: big accomplishment it's not true. Yeah, I mean you're you're 1037 01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:44,280 Speaker 1: talking about a big part of and I think one 1038 01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:46,360 Speaker 1: thing that you've done in your career and that I 1039 01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:49,000 Speaker 1: hope to do and I'm sure Sam hopes as well, 1040 01:13:49,280 --> 01:13:53,240 Speaker 1: is to is to carry that torch and is too 1041 01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:57,840 Speaker 1: understand the history of what came for us and how 1042 01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:02,120 Speaker 1: miraculous the time that we've described in this podcast was 1043 01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:05,720 Speaker 1: for America, and how miraculous that it has lasted for 1044 01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:10,880 Speaker 1: these decades and throughout your life is even more miraculous 1045 01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:14,720 Speaker 1: that it's a it's amazing to have thought about, you know, 1046 01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:19,280 Speaker 1: the the you were one year old, when when you know, 1047 01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:23,919 Speaker 1: the concerts, the early Conservations were coming together to decide 1048 01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:27,160 Speaker 1: the future. And here we are in the future. And 1049 01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:30,680 Speaker 1: there was two boys there that learned something that they 1050 01:14:30,920 --> 01:14:33,400 Speaker 1: that they to them was likely an aid to their 1051 01:14:33,439 --> 01:14:36,519 Speaker 1: family and to the way of life, which wasn't always 1052 01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:41,400 Speaker 1: that way. Yeah, it wasn't the Royal Hunting Party. It 1053 01:14:41,600 --> 01:14:45,559 Speaker 1: was not as the real Americans. And it's democratic in nature. 1054 01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:50,400 Speaker 1: And what I think this spends well into I think ethics. 1055 01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:56,599 Speaker 1: I forgot that question. We'll get there. They got plenty 1056 01:14:56,600 --> 01:15:02,120 Speaker 1: of time. Have a drink um. Well, I'll have a 1057 01:15:02,200 --> 01:15:10,320 Speaker 1: drink in in um, elevating the conversation of ethics as 1058 01:15:10,360 --> 01:15:17,559 Speaker 1: you did UM there was UH and in your book 1059 01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:20,800 Speaker 1: there's the level of caring about To me what struck me, 1060 01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:24,720 Speaker 1: it was the level of caring about the community of 1061 01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:27,080 Speaker 1: people that you were involved in, but the level of 1062 01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:31,640 Speaker 1: caring about right and wrong for them and and that discussion. 1063 01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:34,160 Speaker 1: You know, and as you wrote that book, you know, 1064 01:15:34,200 --> 01:15:36,280 Speaker 1: what's your ultimate goal, Like, would you remember what's in 1065 01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:38,320 Speaker 1: your head? Is I'm going to achieve something from this 1066 01:15:38,479 --> 01:15:41,400 Speaker 1: writing or is it just the conversation that you had 1067 01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:45,920 Speaker 1: within it? Well, there's you know, there's things going on 1068 01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:50,240 Speaker 1: in a person's life. And in the context of this subject, 1069 01:15:51,479 --> 01:15:58,599 Speaker 1: I had been going to the shot show. Uh, we're 1070 01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:01,559 Speaker 1: getting ready to go to the shots, right, and here's 1071 01:16:01,720 --> 01:16:06,960 Speaker 1: the commercial extreme and they're just peddling their stuff and 1072 01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:14,360 Speaker 1: nothing matters, ah, other than to sell the commodity. And 1073 01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:16,800 Speaker 1: the fact that there is an animal involved. We're going 1074 01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:20,400 Speaker 1: to get shot out here is not ever across that border. 1075 01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:27,200 Speaker 1: And and that's the tragedy of the industry not seeing 1076 01:16:28,439 --> 01:16:35,880 Speaker 1: a more you know, a more powerful uh reality and 1077 01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:40,760 Speaker 1: just the antler or the quantity or the locker full 1078 01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:45,679 Speaker 1: of dead fish or whatever it is. But all they're 1079 01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:47,840 Speaker 1: doing is promoting the commerce of it. And of course 1080 01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:50,080 Speaker 1: the commerce is what drove it to its knees to 1081 01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:55,960 Speaker 1: begin with the buffalo hight in other just the meat markets. 1082 01:16:57,000 --> 01:17:01,439 Speaker 1: And here we're going right back with its huge engine. 1083 01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:06,680 Speaker 1: Bloydn that a powerful notion, like, yeah, right, and so 1084 01:17:08,160 --> 01:17:12,200 Speaker 1: we're beyond fair chase to try to find another path 1085 01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:18,200 Speaker 1: came from the publisher of Falcon Press at the time. 1086 01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:23,679 Speaker 1: Tossed a little copy of a book called The Ethics 1087 01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:28,879 Speaker 1: Are the Style of Writing by Strunk and White Elements 1088 01:17:28,920 --> 01:17:31,439 Speaker 1: of Style or I forget exact title of it now, 1089 01:17:31,560 --> 01:17:35,000 Speaker 1: but it was a little tiny paperback book about writing. 1090 01:17:36,680 --> 01:17:38,400 Speaker 1: And he said, I want you to write a book 1091 01:17:38,479 --> 01:17:44,240 Speaker 1: just like this on the ethics of hunting. And I said, okay, 1092 01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:49,320 Speaker 1: I've never written anything articles, but never a book. So 1093 01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:54,439 Speaker 1: I sat down and I just wrote beyond fair Chase. Uh. 1094 01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:58,439 Speaker 1: One of the things I did right was it wasn't 1095 01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:03,840 Speaker 1: a list of thou shalts and thou shalt not, because 1096 01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:13,479 Speaker 1: they're everywhere and they're nowhere. Yeah, and so you I 1097 01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:23,120 Speaker 1: spun five stories into the book on relationships between the 1098 01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:28,200 Speaker 1: hunter and the hunted, including that buck there and another 1099 01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:32,280 Speaker 1: set in my downstairs from the next year in the 1100 01:18:32,400 --> 01:18:41,040 Speaker 1: same same hillside basically, but at any rate. Uh. I 1101 01:18:41,200 --> 01:18:47,799 Speaker 1: drafted it and uh there was very little editorial stuff. 1102 01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:50,920 Speaker 1: Oh and he wanted to call the Little Brown Book 1103 01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:56,200 Speaker 1: on Hunting because Chairman Mao had just come out with 1104 01:18:56,320 --> 01:19:00,679 Speaker 1: the Little Red Book. Little Brown Book on I would 1105 01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:05,439 Speaker 1: have lasted as long. But well I did. How what 1106 01:19:05,560 --> 01:19:09,280 Speaker 1: I did was I called offered to buy a beer 1107 01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:12,720 Speaker 1: for about four or five members of the Rod and 1108 01:19:12,760 --> 01:19:15,280 Speaker 1: Gun Club that I was a member of, told him 1109 01:19:15,360 --> 01:19:19,160 Speaker 1: the dilemma that I needed a better title. At the 1110 01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:21,800 Speaker 1: price of a couple of beers, I got one of 1111 01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:28,519 Speaker 1: the guys, Mike Trevor uh said how about Beyond Fair Chase? 1112 01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:32,000 Speaker 1: And that rang the bell and so that's where the 1113 01:19:32,040 --> 01:19:35,000 Speaker 1: title came from. And then I wrote the book. And 1114 01:19:35,080 --> 01:19:42,320 Speaker 1: it has five stories um um. One about the Wounded Bull, 1115 01:19:42,439 --> 01:19:44,519 Speaker 1: which is the one that comes back to me most often. 1116 01:19:45,479 --> 01:19:49,160 Speaker 1: Some one personal story about when my son passes up 1117 01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:53,160 Speaker 1: and elk because he wants his father to confirm that 1118 01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:58,200 Speaker 1: everything is good, as we all do. Yeah, and then 1119 01:19:58,320 --> 01:20:01,560 Speaker 1: the next season he he gets an elk there and 1120 01:20:01,720 --> 01:20:05,720 Speaker 1: I thought, wow, it's all it's all fits. But at 1121 01:20:05,720 --> 01:20:10,919 Speaker 1: any rate, Uh, there's a ton of stories about stories 1122 01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:16,840 Speaker 1: coming back to me, but that we'll take a lot. 1123 01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:20,720 Speaker 1: But at any rate. That's where beyond fair Chase came from. 1124 01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:25,160 Speaker 1: And then the breakthrough there was I had been meeting 1125 01:20:25,320 --> 01:20:32,880 Speaker 1: with with the International Association of Hunter Education Educators. They 1126 01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:37,360 Speaker 1: were having an annual convention in Des Moines, Iowa. And 1127 01:20:37,479 --> 01:20:40,080 Speaker 1: so I wrote the guy and I said, look, I've 1128 01:20:40,160 --> 01:20:44,840 Speaker 1: got this book and I'd like to tell about it 1129 01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:50,000 Speaker 1: at your convention. I'll take any place on your program 1130 01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:54,280 Speaker 1: that you might be able to fit it in. Uh 1131 01:20:54,439 --> 01:21:00,519 Speaker 1: somebody cancels or whatever, and he agrees, he said, come on, 1132 01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:05,160 Speaker 1: and uh he gives me the award banquet speaking spot. 1133 01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:14,200 Speaker 1: And my wife Gail goes, she's on contract here with 1134 01:21:14,360 --> 01:21:17,560 Speaker 1: Falcon Press at the time to promote the book sell it, 1135 01:21:18,360 --> 01:21:21,800 Speaker 1: and one of the guys from his staff down down 1136 01:21:21,880 --> 01:21:25,400 Speaker 1: there at Falcon presses along. We go to Des Moines. 1137 01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:30,799 Speaker 1: I read a speech and we get into the banquet 1138 01:21:30,920 --> 01:21:35,400 Speaker 1: room and Gail and Chris, the other guy from Falcon, 1139 01:21:35,880 --> 01:21:39,080 Speaker 1: they set up a table to take orders on the 1140 01:21:39,160 --> 01:21:44,439 Speaker 1: outside of the banquet room. This is the Hotel Fort 1141 01:21:44,520 --> 01:21:47,559 Speaker 1: des Moines, and I get in here, and here's all 1142 01:21:47,640 --> 01:21:55,560 Speaker 1: these oak walls and beautifully kept historic place. And it 1143 01:21:55,640 --> 01:21:58,040 Speaker 1: occurs to me because I knew a little bit about 1144 01:21:58,160 --> 01:22:04,400 Speaker 1: conservation history that elder Leopold Iowa and Ding Darling I 1145 01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:08,080 Speaker 1: when Ding was the first president of the National Wildlife Federation, 1146 01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:12,280 Speaker 1: spoke in that same room. So I threw away my 1147 01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:17,920 Speaker 1: text and I talked about the echoes of their words 1148 01:22:18,040 --> 01:22:23,760 Speaker 1: that are held in these walls. And when that was over, 1149 01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:27,760 Speaker 1: they swamped our preorder table, and Gale and Chris so 1150 01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:32,040 Speaker 1: So pre sold a hundred thousand copies of Fair Chaise. 1151 01:22:33,880 --> 01:22:37,840 Speaker 1: And what'd you tell us before? Seven? About seven hundred? 1152 01:22:37,920 --> 01:22:42,679 Speaker 1: Now unbelievable seven? And Sam, what like when you first 1153 01:22:42,720 --> 01:22:45,720 Speaker 1: read it? Uh? What would you think? Like? What like? 1154 01:22:46,680 --> 01:22:49,599 Speaker 1: What was your reaction to what you've read? When what Mr? 1155 01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:52,880 Speaker 1: What Jim had put together? Well, I think I think 1156 01:22:52,920 --> 01:22:58,200 Speaker 1: it started getting distributed two hunter education courses probably right 1157 01:22:58,280 --> 01:23:01,599 Speaker 1: after I was I went through that, So I didn't 1158 01:23:01,640 --> 01:23:05,000 Speaker 1: read it until just a couple of years ago, and 1159 01:23:05,120 --> 01:23:08,320 Speaker 1: Lantani gave me a copy. But was that the one 1160 01:23:08,360 --> 01:23:12,439 Speaker 1: you started with the story of like killing a sparrow? Yeah, yeah, 1161 01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:17,240 Speaker 1: I remember, I remember that. I mean, I definitely resonated 1162 01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:20,240 Speaker 1: with it and immediately, having grown up, you know, with 1163 01:23:20,320 --> 01:23:24,360 Speaker 1: a BB gun in hand, killing all all manner forgotten 1164 01:23:24,960 --> 01:23:32,439 Speaker 1: mentioned yes, yeah, oh that was go ahead. I'm sorry, 1165 01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:38,400 Speaker 1: oh please please go ahead. Bill Schneider wanted to call 1166 01:23:38,479 --> 01:23:41,840 Speaker 1: it the Little Brown Book on Hunting. I wanted to 1167 01:23:41,960 --> 01:23:46,600 Speaker 1: call it The Sparrow and the Mammoth Hunter. That's a 1168 01:23:46,640 --> 01:23:49,880 Speaker 1: pretty good title. That's that's pretty good. I feel like 1169 01:23:49,960 --> 01:23:52,679 Speaker 1: a T shirt turned out to be beyond fair chase. 1170 01:23:54,280 --> 01:23:56,040 Speaker 1: We like it. But yeah, this this book becomes a 1171 01:23:56,080 --> 01:23:59,599 Speaker 1: seminal project. And and I read it. I think about 1172 01:23:59,720 --> 01:24:01,560 Speaker 1: five years ago when I first I remember when I 1173 01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:04,960 Speaker 1: first started to I had been a professional in the 1174 01:24:05,040 --> 01:24:07,360 Speaker 1: industry for for years, and when I first started to 1175 01:24:07,560 --> 01:24:12,439 Speaker 1: examine my own actions, and I remember it was around 1176 01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:15,240 Speaker 1: a photo I took of elk, one of the first 1177 01:24:15,320 --> 01:24:17,800 Speaker 1: elk I ever killed, was in the Madison Valley. And 1178 01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:20,760 Speaker 1: we took this photo. We took, we stood, we The 1179 01:24:20,840 --> 01:24:23,719 Speaker 1: hunt lasted an hour and the photo shot photo shoot 1180 01:24:23,800 --> 01:24:27,800 Speaker 1: lasted three hours with the different positions of this elk, 1181 01:24:27,880 --> 01:24:30,320 Speaker 1: and and I remember no one taking a photo of 1182 01:24:30,439 --> 01:24:32,799 Speaker 1: us cutting it up, or no one taking a photo 1183 01:24:32,960 --> 01:24:37,240 Speaker 1: of of of me packing the antlers out, no one 1184 01:24:37,400 --> 01:24:40,240 Speaker 1: taking a photo of me doing anything other than standing 1185 01:24:40,280 --> 01:24:43,160 Speaker 1: around with this dead elks. First elk I've killed. And 1186 01:24:43,280 --> 01:24:48,040 Speaker 1: I just remember at some point in that and that hunt, 1187 01:24:48,160 --> 01:24:51,439 Speaker 1: just thinking I'm not sure what's going on here, Like 1188 01:24:51,520 --> 01:24:53,400 Speaker 1: I'm not sure why I'm doing this, because at that 1189 01:24:53,439 --> 01:24:55,840 Speaker 1: point I was a was in an editor, an editor 1190 01:24:55,880 --> 01:24:58,240 Speaker 1: for a hunting magazine, and companies would invite me out. 1191 01:24:58,280 --> 01:24:59,840 Speaker 1: As you spoke about it hits home to me, and 1192 01:24:59,880 --> 01:25:01,960 Speaker 1: you spoke about like how we've turned hunting into a 1193 01:25:02,040 --> 01:25:05,240 Speaker 1: commodity when you use it to sell things, which which 1194 01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:07,439 Speaker 1: changes a lot of the motivation for some hunters in 1195 01:25:07,479 --> 01:25:09,120 Speaker 1: the industry. And I think that was part of what 1196 01:25:09,200 --> 01:25:11,320 Speaker 1: I was struggling with their It's like, why am I 1197 01:25:11,400 --> 01:25:14,040 Speaker 1: really doing this? Yeah, I'm eating it. Yeah, there's conservation, 1198 01:25:14,080 --> 01:25:16,840 Speaker 1: But what am I doing? Yeah? And that's that's kind 1199 01:25:16,880 --> 01:25:19,439 Speaker 1: of what I was struggling to get at been and 1200 01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:22,439 Speaker 1: and something. I think it really the you know, the 1201 01:25:23,080 --> 01:25:29,439 Speaker 1: ultimate revelation it provided me was it it's it's sometimes 1202 01:25:29,479 --> 01:25:31,840 Speaker 1: not enough just to follow the letter of the law, 1203 01:25:32,040 --> 01:25:37,400 Speaker 1: just what it doing, what is legal, does not completely 1204 01:25:37,520 --> 01:25:41,720 Speaker 1: satisfy our responsibility to this resource. And growing up I 1205 01:25:43,040 --> 01:25:45,960 Speaker 1: for the most part followed the law. There are definitely 1206 01:25:46,040 --> 01:25:51,560 Speaker 1: some um waverings there, but uh, you know, and and 1207 01:25:52,040 --> 01:25:53,720 Speaker 1: I and I feel like by the time I had 1208 01:25:53,760 --> 01:25:57,280 Speaker 1: read it, i'd I'd come to agree that game laws 1209 01:25:57,320 --> 01:25:59,320 Speaker 1: were there for a good reason and that I didn't 1210 01:25:59,400 --> 01:26:02,479 Speaker 1: like to give cops that reason to mess with me. 1211 01:26:03,320 --> 01:26:08,719 Speaker 1: But it really, it really um cemented I think ideas 1212 01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:12,880 Speaker 1: that I've already gathered from from other works and things 1213 01:26:12,960 --> 01:26:16,800 Speaker 1: that and I think that's the this is the great 1214 01:26:16,880 --> 01:26:18,960 Speaker 1: beauty of that title, as you need to go beyond 1215 01:26:19,160 --> 01:26:24,160 Speaker 1: what's required of you as a hunter and and and 1216 01:26:24,720 --> 01:26:34,160 Speaker 1: make sure that your actions are defensible and beneficial to 1217 01:26:34,280 --> 01:26:38,720 Speaker 1: the resource, and that you do you do as much 1218 01:26:39,200 --> 01:26:44,720 Speaker 1: for that animal and those populations and those resources as 1219 01:26:44,840 --> 01:26:47,360 Speaker 1: much or more than than they do for you, And 1220 01:26:47,439 --> 01:26:51,200 Speaker 1: that you you have that that responsibility, that it's a 1221 01:26:51,840 --> 01:26:54,320 Speaker 1: that's a given to take. Yeah, do you think about 1222 01:26:55,240 --> 01:26:59,120 Speaker 1: um your effort too. And then just your own personal 1223 01:26:59,160 --> 01:27:01,760 Speaker 1: feelings will define finding the relationship between the hunter and 1224 01:27:01,840 --> 01:27:05,120 Speaker 1: the hunted, like how we feel about animals. You know, 1225 01:27:05,200 --> 01:27:07,040 Speaker 1: how much how much time have you put into that 1226 01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:10,880 Speaker 1: and your own personal hunting, Well, it grows with time. 1227 01:27:11,640 --> 01:27:14,719 Speaker 1: I mean the first thing you wanted that I wanted 1228 01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:18,479 Speaker 1: to do with with that borrowed gun was to find 1229 01:27:18,520 --> 01:27:24,320 Speaker 1: a dead deer after I sent around that direction. Yeah, 1230 01:27:24,439 --> 01:27:27,000 Speaker 1: and then of course it became take care of it. 1231 01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:32,200 Speaker 1: That was kind of an autopilot. That's why I was there. Ah. 1232 01:27:33,840 --> 01:27:40,000 Speaker 1: But the more experiences you have and and the more 1233 01:27:40,080 --> 01:27:44,880 Speaker 1: you learn about where you're hunting and the history of 1234 01:27:44,960 --> 01:27:49,679 Speaker 1: the place. You know, the Rocky Mountain Front, of course 1235 01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:53,840 Speaker 1: is a classic. But that first ranger up there, Eiler's Coke. 1236 01:27:55,200 --> 01:28:01,280 Speaker 1: He spent thirty days in five four services the first 1237 01:28:01,400 --> 01:28:06,320 Speaker 1: year in thirty days in nine oh six, and he 1238 01:28:06,479 --> 01:28:11,240 Speaker 1: described what's the Bob Marshall Great Bear Complex now, but 1239 01:28:11,400 --> 01:28:18,320 Speaker 1: it was described him by drainage. And in thirty days 1240 01:28:18,400 --> 01:28:24,360 Speaker 1: of hunting each year he saw he said, I never 1241 01:28:24,520 --> 01:28:27,519 Speaker 1: saw or got a shot at a single game animal 1242 01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:32,519 Speaker 1: except one mountain goat. I mean, you could trampled back 1243 01:28:32,600 --> 01:28:37,680 Speaker 1: there in sixty days. But that was the depth to 1244 01:28:37,800 --> 01:28:43,439 Speaker 1: which the slaughter had gone. And uh, he rides and 1245 01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:50,400 Speaker 1: he was a conservation oriented guy. And uh, the front 1246 01:28:50,479 --> 01:28:53,920 Speaker 1: has got a very rich history of people popping up 1247 01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:58,040 Speaker 1: along the way. Sometimes they're in the agency. They made 1248 01:28:58,040 --> 01:29:00,479 Speaker 1: it a wilderness before there was a wilder this act 1249 01:29:01,720 --> 01:29:06,880 Speaker 1: and UH Sun River Game Preserve was created, and I 1250 01:29:06,960 --> 01:29:09,599 Speaker 1: think it was only one dissenting vote in the Montana 1251 01:29:09,720 --> 01:29:14,679 Speaker 1: State Legislature when that was passed through start protecting this stuff. 1252 01:29:15,600 --> 01:29:19,639 Speaker 1: And that was from the grassroots, uh rancher from Shoto 1253 01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:22,799 Speaker 1: or maybe he was a businessman I think from Shotto, 1254 01:29:22,960 --> 01:29:28,000 Speaker 1: but that we had to do better. Yeah, I had 1255 01:29:28,040 --> 01:29:31,519 Speaker 1: to do better. And you feel like we've done better. Yeah, 1256 01:29:32,600 --> 01:29:35,000 Speaker 1: certainly we've done better. And of course now the problem 1257 01:29:35,200 --> 01:29:40,080 Speaker 1: is again as well, life became more abundant, and are 1258 01:29:40,240 --> 01:29:47,479 Speaker 1: people are more interested in hunting and commerce returns. And 1259 01:29:47,560 --> 01:29:50,679 Speaker 1: then when you've got the critter living private and public 1260 01:29:50,880 --> 01:29:56,240 Speaker 1: both you have those conflicts and those of the issues 1261 01:29:56,320 --> 01:29:58,960 Speaker 1: that your generation is going to have to come to. 1262 01:30:00,280 --> 01:30:03,240 Speaker 1: UH management scheme that is good for the good for 1263 01:30:03,360 --> 01:30:06,519 Speaker 1: the critter. That was That was a question I've been 1264 01:30:07,240 --> 01:30:09,599 Speaker 1: I've had sitting on my my list for a while 1265 01:30:09,720 --> 01:30:12,799 Speaker 1: that I mean here moving us in that direction anyway 1266 01:30:15,240 --> 01:30:19,280 Speaker 1: that you know, the fair Chase ethic rose around Leopold 1267 01:30:19,400 --> 01:30:23,360 Speaker 1: and Roosevelt and and all of those, and by and 1268 01:30:23,520 --> 01:30:26,160 Speaker 1: large we have recovered a lot of our wildlife in 1269 01:30:26,280 --> 01:30:29,280 Speaker 1: this country. I was just curious to know, you know, 1270 01:30:29,479 --> 01:30:34,160 Speaker 1: from from me, from you? How do you approach some 1271 01:30:34,320 --> 01:30:39,800 Speaker 1: of these modern um issues of of fair chase and 1272 01:30:40,240 --> 01:30:43,759 Speaker 1: hunting ethics? Where where where do you start? When people 1273 01:30:43,800 --> 01:30:47,760 Speaker 1: are are talking about I don't know, Like I feel 1274 01:30:47,800 --> 01:30:51,639 Speaker 1: like bear baiting is very much in the modern debate. 1275 01:30:51,800 --> 01:30:54,200 Speaker 1: Some people would say that by putting out bait, you're 1276 01:30:54,280 --> 01:30:59,439 Speaker 1: creating an unnatural situation two to chase an animal that 1277 01:30:59,520 --> 01:31:03,200 Speaker 1: may not be fair. Other people would respond that by 1278 01:31:03,280 --> 01:31:07,599 Speaker 1: hunting bears over bait, you have the opportunity to properly 1279 01:31:07,760 --> 01:31:11,480 Speaker 1: sex the bear. Make sure you're taking a bore, preferably 1280 01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:14,960 Speaker 1: mature bore, and you'll have an opportunity to take a good, clean, 1281 01:31:15,120 --> 01:31:19,240 Speaker 1: standing shot. Um. And and this is something I struggle with, 1282 01:31:19,439 --> 01:31:22,320 Speaker 1: And I'm just curious, like you know, having being the 1283 01:31:22,400 --> 01:31:26,479 Speaker 1: guy who wrote the book on fair case what what's square? 1284 01:31:26,520 --> 01:31:29,720 Speaker 1: What square one? What? Where? Where do you start when 1285 01:31:29,840 --> 01:31:33,760 Speaker 1: trying to parse these difficult discussions. Well, you kind of 1286 01:31:33,840 --> 01:31:37,240 Speaker 1: start at midpoint on a spectrum, and that that midpoint 1287 01:31:37,680 --> 01:31:45,920 Speaker 1: is where you accept responsibility both for the taking of 1288 01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:51,240 Speaker 1: that animal that is equal to your responsibility to see 1289 01:31:51,240 --> 01:31:55,880 Speaker 1: to do that that animal was even there. In other words, 1290 01:31:55,920 --> 01:31:59,480 Speaker 1: if you've got to realize that you're just not a freeloader. 1291 01:32:00,560 --> 01:32:04,200 Speaker 1: And I think there's kind of a middle point in 1292 01:32:04,280 --> 01:32:09,479 Speaker 1: the hunter's career where when I borrowed that gun and 1293 01:32:09,640 --> 01:32:14,840 Speaker 1: shot that dough, I hadn't really I didn't even know 1294 01:32:14,960 --> 01:32:18,040 Speaker 1: why she was out there or why the plan was public. 1295 01:32:19,080 --> 01:32:22,519 Speaker 1: And as that awareness grows, and you don't have to 1296 01:32:22,640 --> 01:32:27,320 Speaker 1: have that all for your first start out of the shoot, 1297 01:32:28,400 --> 01:32:30,800 Speaker 1: but when you when you decide you're going to be 1298 01:32:30,920 --> 01:32:35,000 Speaker 1: a hunter, I think it would really be it's I know, 1299 01:32:35,240 --> 01:32:38,679 Speaker 1: it's to your advantage to start viewing it and it's 1300 01:32:38,960 --> 01:32:41,759 Speaker 1: the full context of why this is going to even happen, 1301 01:32:43,200 --> 01:32:50,840 Speaker 1: and uh, that enriches it. My best hunt was when 1302 01:32:50,920 --> 01:32:54,880 Speaker 1: I ran into those three guys south of town. I 1303 01:32:54,960 --> 01:32:58,040 Speaker 1: didn't even fire a shot or tag anything, or I 1304 01:32:58,120 --> 01:33:02,680 Speaker 1: didn't have to drag anything out, but I hadn't experienced 1305 01:33:03,880 --> 01:33:06,439 Speaker 1: that added to the beauty of living in the joy 1306 01:33:06,520 --> 01:33:10,120 Speaker 1: of life, as Roosevelt called it, I mean, what more 1307 01:33:10,160 --> 01:33:13,720 Speaker 1: could you get out of an activity? Yeah? Well, isn't that? 1308 01:33:13,960 --> 01:33:16,559 Speaker 1: I mean that that is ethics, right, I mean, it's 1309 01:33:16,600 --> 01:33:19,120 Speaker 1: just like the the evolution of your experiences and to 1310 01:33:19,280 --> 01:33:22,280 Speaker 1: form the way you interact. I think if you have 1311 01:33:22,439 --> 01:33:26,200 Speaker 1: the commitment, you know, we're all going to stumble, you know, 1312 01:33:26,960 --> 01:33:30,320 Speaker 1: every now and then something, we'll go all right out there. 1313 01:33:30,439 --> 01:33:32,920 Speaker 1: And you don't have to beat yourself up on it. 1314 01:33:33,080 --> 01:33:36,479 Speaker 1: Just put it in balance of a journey that you're 1315 01:33:36,520 --> 01:33:41,880 Speaker 1: on and uh, when you get to be uh in 1316 01:33:42,080 --> 01:33:48,040 Speaker 1: my demographic, Uh, all I gotta do is look out 1317 01:33:48,120 --> 01:33:51,240 Speaker 1: the window and spot that deer truck and the alleyed 1318 01:33:51,240 --> 01:33:57,559 Speaker 1: out here. I mean there's a trophy, ye. And it's 1319 01:33:57,640 --> 01:34:02,640 Speaker 1: because our society is said, you know, we do not 1320 01:34:03,000 --> 01:34:08,559 Speaker 1: treat these things casually. They are fellow passenger on this planet, 1321 01:34:09,360 --> 01:34:11,760 Speaker 1: and they're telling us a lot about what we need 1322 01:34:11,880 --> 01:34:18,320 Speaker 1: to know if we're going to make this ah as 1323 01:34:18,520 --> 01:34:23,360 Speaker 1: rich for future generations as it was for hours. That 1324 01:34:23,479 --> 01:34:27,320 Speaker 1: there's still generations within the womb of time with an 1325 01:34:27,360 --> 01:34:32,880 Speaker 1: expati and expectation that we're going to leave them not 1326 01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:37,080 Speaker 1: only a livable planet, but a relationship with the other 1327 01:34:37,240 --> 01:34:43,200 Speaker 1: life on here that we haven't had traditionally. You know. 1328 01:34:43,280 --> 01:34:47,720 Speaker 1: And in some of these writings that I've been made 1329 01:34:47,760 --> 01:34:52,880 Speaker 1: available to me by my sons for various Christmas is 1330 01:34:53,680 --> 01:34:59,120 Speaker 1: there's one called a Forest Journey, and it points out 1331 01:34:59,320 --> 01:35:05,120 Speaker 1: that the land between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers were 1332 01:35:05,360 --> 01:35:11,320 Speaker 1: Civilization's birthplace was once a forest so dense the sunlight 1333 01:35:11,439 --> 01:35:16,360 Speaker 1: could not shine through. And that's the sand piles were 1334 01:35:16,400 --> 01:35:21,040 Speaker 1: out there blowing each other up on right now. And uh, 1335 01:35:22,240 --> 01:35:25,080 Speaker 1: we had a second chance here, We had a new world, 1336 01:35:25,720 --> 01:35:28,759 Speaker 1: and we made it a bunch of mistakes. We didn't 1337 01:35:28,800 --> 01:35:32,599 Speaker 1: say please when we put put on the Eastern shore. 1338 01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:36,320 Speaker 1: We did not know. We didn't say thank you yet. 1339 01:35:37,000 --> 01:35:43,040 Speaker 1: But nonetheless, I think there's way more to getting the 1340 01:35:43,120 --> 01:35:46,840 Speaker 1: full measure of the experience than just the day of 1341 01:35:47,000 --> 01:35:50,880 Speaker 1: field with the rifle in your hand. It's learning all 1342 01:35:51,000 --> 01:35:54,640 Speaker 1: you can learn about the places where you're going and 1343 01:35:55,120 --> 01:35:58,519 Speaker 1: their history, how they got to your custody. And there's 1344 01:35:58,520 --> 01:36:02,760 Speaker 1: beautiful stories lit heard through that. And and then when 1345 01:36:02,800 --> 01:36:08,040 Speaker 1: you have an appreciation, you know, the hand of Roosevelt 1346 01:36:08,200 --> 01:36:15,559 Speaker 1: is on you. He put these fourests around us. Yeah, 1347 01:36:15,600 --> 01:36:20,000 Speaker 1: against the odds, for sure, I know. And uh, all 1348 01:36:20,040 --> 01:36:23,200 Speaker 1: the other people that pop up at the various points 1349 01:36:23,600 --> 01:36:27,320 Speaker 1: and various levels in our society all had to make 1350 01:36:27,360 --> 01:36:30,519 Speaker 1: a contribution, you know, for that moment you get in 1351 01:36:30,600 --> 01:36:34,160 Speaker 1: the woods, and when you know as much of that 1352 01:36:34,320 --> 01:36:38,559 Speaker 1: as you can possibly stuff into your brain. Uh, then 1353 01:36:38,640 --> 01:36:41,599 Speaker 1: I think you're getting the full joy out of life. Yeah, 1354 01:36:41,720 --> 01:36:44,120 Speaker 1: would you hear you tell that? Do you think it 1355 01:36:44,120 --> 01:36:48,439 Speaker 1: would be necessary um or fruitful for you as you 1356 01:36:48,520 --> 01:36:51,720 Speaker 1: are now to travel back to that twenty year old 1357 01:36:52,040 --> 01:36:53,800 Speaker 1: young hunter who shot the dough in the head and 1358 01:36:53,880 --> 01:36:56,479 Speaker 1: explain these things to him or or do you feel 1359 01:36:56,520 --> 01:37:00,080 Speaker 1: as though the learning was necessary? I think the a 1360 01:37:00,240 --> 01:37:05,200 Speaker 1: that it came to you was necessary. Well, I don't 1361 01:37:05,280 --> 01:37:08,439 Speaker 1: think you can stuff that into somebody. Yeah, you know, 1362 01:37:08,600 --> 01:37:15,439 Speaker 1: I think you yeah, show them pieces of the puzzle 1363 01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:20,160 Speaker 1: and tell them there is such a thing and motivating 1364 01:37:20,560 --> 01:37:25,720 Speaker 1: people anyway you can to pique their interest and have 1365 01:37:25,880 --> 01:37:30,160 Speaker 1: the materials available for him, you know, having the access. 1366 01:37:31,640 --> 01:37:34,400 Speaker 1: I shouldn't have had to wait till I was turning 1367 01:37:34,880 --> 01:37:40,400 Speaker 1: seven five or whatever the heck it was, uh to 1368 01:37:40,520 --> 01:37:44,360 Speaker 1: start really really studying Theatore Roosevelt. I thought he took 1369 01:37:44,400 --> 01:37:50,920 Speaker 1: Sam one hill that was enough. Yeah, No, I think 1370 01:37:51,280 --> 01:37:53,679 Speaker 1: it's it's it's all very interesting to me because add 1371 01:37:53,720 --> 01:37:56,640 Speaker 1: through this conversation and listen to you talk. There's so 1372 01:37:56,720 --> 01:37:59,800 Speaker 1: many threads, there's so many through lines to what I 1373 01:38:00,000 --> 01:38:03,040 Speaker 1: how I feel, you know, and I'm sure how Sam 1374 01:38:03,120 --> 01:38:05,639 Speaker 1: feels and how a lot of people that are coming 1375 01:38:05,680 --> 01:38:08,320 Speaker 1: of age and hunting right now feel, and a lot 1376 01:38:08,400 --> 01:38:10,720 Speaker 1: of the for lack of a better i't really like 1377 01:38:10,840 --> 01:38:12,880 Speaker 1: this term, and a lot of the adult onset hunters 1378 01:38:13,439 --> 01:38:16,760 Speaker 1: now feel because I think there's many many folks who 1379 01:38:16,760 --> 01:38:20,439 Speaker 1: are picking up hunting at this point in time when 1380 01:38:20,479 --> 01:38:23,320 Speaker 1: they're in their thirties or forties. They never had a 1381 01:38:23,439 --> 01:38:26,599 Speaker 1: father or mother to teach them that, and they're picking 1382 01:38:26,920 --> 01:38:31,360 Speaker 1: up hunting as an adult. In the reason I asked 1383 01:38:31,400 --> 01:38:36,080 Speaker 1: that last question because I often wonder if it's necessary 1384 01:38:36,200 --> 01:38:39,280 Speaker 1: to to to go hunting as a child or as 1385 01:38:39,320 --> 01:38:42,360 Speaker 1: a young as a young man or woman without all 1386 01:38:42,439 --> 01:38:44,960 Speaker 1: the burdensome knowledge of the past to be able to 1387 01:38:45,080 --> 01:38:50,560 Speaker 1: just enjoy and interact and simplify. And to to have 1388 01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:54,280 Speaker 1: done that is to have done it in a pure way, 1389 01:38:55,280 --> 01:38:58,240 Speaker 1: and then it and as as you grow your experiences, 1390 01:38:58,680 --> 01:39:01,160 Speaker 1: you'll grow your knowledge and grow that your intellect, and 1391 01:39:01,240 --> 01:39:05,080 Speaker 1: grow your your ethics and your fair chase ideals. And 1392 01:39:05,120 --> 01:39:07,920 Speaker 1: I always wonder, you know, as an adult onset hunter, 1393 01:39:08,040 --> 01:39:10,120 Speaker 1: somebody's thirty five right now listening to this that just 1394 01:39:10,240 --> 01:39:15,040 Speaker 1: picked up hunting, um, whether you feel they're at an 1395 01:39:15,040 --> 01:39:18,519 Speaker 1: advantage and intellectual advantage being able to assess the history 1396 01:39:18,680 --> 01:39:22,000 Speaker 1: and and the gravity of hunting, or at a disadvantage 1397 01:39:22,040 --> 01:39:23,519 Speaker 1: because they weren't able to come at it with a 1398 01:39:23,600 --> 01:39:27,800 Speaker 1: childlike enthusiasm that you know, we'd all like to have. Well, 1399 01:39:27,960 --> 01:39:36,600 Speaker 1: I think both avenues are four lanes, they're both highways. Yeah, exactly, 1400 01:39:36,720 --> 01:39:41,160 Speaker 1: and uh, I think it's one thing to come on with. Well. 1401 01:39:41,200 --> 01:39:43,840 Speaker 1: You again, when you study the biography of some of 1402 01:39:43,880 --> 01:39:49,880 Speaker 1: the heroes, Uh, they came here because they were living 1403 01:39:49,920 --> 01:39:54,960 Speaker 1: in a concrete urban environment and reading about adventures of 1404 01:39:55,080 --> 01:40:00,360 Speaker 1: the frontier. They wanted to have one and and that 1405 01:40:00,560 --> 01:40:04,720 Speaker 1: cost a buffalo of a little cannon ball crickets. You know, 1406 01:40:06,280 --> 01:40:12,040 Speaker 1: it's life. But then the compensation that came as a result, 1407 01:40:14,080 --> 01:40:23,280 Speaker 1: you know, Uh, we're back with wolves, were back with lions, 1408 01:40:23,560 --> 01:40:29,400 Speaker 1: were back with with with buffalo, were struggling with buffalo. Uh, 1409 01:40:30,120 --> 01:40:34,799 Speaker 1: but just think of the the reality of that struggle. 1410 01:40:35,920 --> 01:40:41,439 Speaker 1: I mean, here's a Native American taking a handful of 1411 01:40:41,560 --> 01:40:45,559 Speaker 1: calves off the Rocky mountain front and hiding them out 1412 01:40:45,640 --> 01:40:53,080 Speaker 1: at Pablo. That made a huge difference the species that 1413 01:40:53,240 --> 01:40:57,000 Speaker 1: might have gone. And it's in uh the book, the 1414 01:40:57,080 --> 01:41:01,280 Speaker 1: Buffalo book I'm reading now of Steve Steve yeah and 1415 01:41:02,000 --> 01:41:06,679 Speaker 1: beautifully documented. Yeah, that's one of Steve Rinella's best best works. Yeah. 1416 01:41:07,280 --> 01:41:16,720 Speaker 1: And uh, the summer of nineteen or I call it 1417 01:41:16,840 --> 01:41:20,679 Speaker 1: the Summer of Our Dance. It's in our Christmas letter. 1418 01:41:21,960 --> 01:41:25,960 Speaker 1: And what had amounted to was we got acquainted with 1419 01:41:26,080 --> 01:41:29,760 Speaker 1: a little Native American girl named Millie, seven years old, 1420 01:41:30,960 --> 01:41:37,840 Speaker 1: adopted by friends of ours. And uh, we heard that 1421 01:41:37,960 --> 01:41:40,800 Speaker 1: Millie was going to well, I was right in this room. 1422 01:41:41,800 --> 01:41:44,960 Speaker 1: I was sitting here. I had Jesus Christ Superstar on 1423 01:41:45,080 --> 01:41:49,640 Speaker 1: my on my tape player. A little Millie came up 1424 01:41:49,680 --> 01:41:52,120 Speaker 1: and she was dancing to the music. And I got 1425 01:41:52,200 --> 01:41:58,160 Speaker 1: that little girl a note fit that she had something 1426 01:41:58,280 --> 01:42:03,200 Speaker 1: in her, uh, was a talent. And then then we 1427 01:42:03,400 --> 01:42:05,960 Speaker 1: learned that she was at the Pulse and Pow Wow 1428 01:42:06,120 --> 01:42:10,919 Speaker 1: this year. So Gaylee and I went up and Millie's 1429 01:42:11,000 --> 01:42:15,960 Speaker 1: mom and grandma had decked her out and finest dancing gear, 1430 01:42:17,400 --> 01:42:23,599 Speaker 1: and we joined in what they call the circle dance, 1431 01:42:24,000 --> 01:42:27,000 Speaker 1: were you get the part of the part of the 1432 01:42:27,080 --> 01:42:30,080 Speaker 1: outer ring. And inside the circle dance was a little 1433 01:42:30,160 --> 01:42:40,040 Speaker 1: Millie and four hundred Engian dancers. I think, Gail, okay, 1434 01:42:40,080 --> 01:42:44,760 Speaker 1: I'll get that. Yeah, you got it. But at any rate, 1435 01:42:45,960 --> 01:42:48,640 Speaker 1: and we were in this outer circle dancing around him, 1436 01:42:49,720 --> 01:42:53,640 Speaker 1: and in the background was the Mission Mountains, snow Captain gorgeous. 1437 01:42:56,439 --> 01:42:58,920 Speaker 1: Several weeks later, we're on the Rocky Mountain front on 1438 01:42:59,040 --> 01:43:03,240 Speaker 1: the other side the hockeys, and it was at a 1439 01:43:03,320 --> 01:43:09,240 Speaker 1: gal's birthday party, and the attendees were almost all ranch 1440 01:43:09,400 --> 01:43:16,639 Speaker 1: families and stuff and through old gals, most of them 1441 01:43:16,680 --> 01:43:19,080 Speaker 1: with more than a little gray hair, got into a 1442 01:43:19,240 --> 01:43:24,080 Speaker 1: line dance and they were stomping out this western tune 1443 01:43:24,360 --> 01:43:28,000 Speaker 1: on the Rocky Mountain front, and in the background was 1444 01:43:28,160 --> 01:43:34,400 Speaker 1: the saw Tooth Ridge and your Mountain and just glorious front. 1445 01:43:35,200 --> 01:43:37,559 Speaker 1: And so the Native Americans were on the west side, 1446 01:43:38,439 --> 01:43:41,720 Speaker 1: the ranches were on the east side. They're all dance 1447 01:43:41,840 --> 01:43:45,040 Speaker 1: and with the with the Rocky Mountains in the background, 1448 01:43:46,520 --> 01:43:52,160 Speaker 1: and two of the guitar playing singers in the western 1449 01:43:52,280 --> 01:43:55,000 Speaker 1: band on the front where members of the Blackfeet tribe. 1450 01:43:58,120 --> 01:44:03,000 Speaker 1: Things come full circle, without knowing it, without knowing it 1451 01:44:03,080 --> 01:44:09,400 Speaker 1: was under the same we're you know, participating in both. 1452 01:44:09,479 --> 01:44:14,000 Speaker 1: We were in the outer circle of thespabilities Mother's invitation, 1453 01:44:15,360 --> 01:44:21,960 Speaker 1: circling the four hundred interior dancers, including little Millie that 1454 01:44:22,080 --> 01:44:26,120 Speaker 1: I first spotted her talent sitting in that chair, Stars 1455 01:44:26,240 --> 01:44:31,320 Speaker 1: Christ Supers were just thinking of the wealth of experience 1456 01:44:31,680 --> 01:44:35,840 Speaker 1: in a lifetime that you can harvest here. And hunting 1457 01:44:36,000 --> 01:44:39,080 Speaker 1: is like that, you harvest an experience. You maybe hang 1458 01:44:39,680 --> 01:44:41,840 Speaker 1: stuff on the wall to remind you of the day, 1459 01:44:43,200 --> 01:44:46,759 Speaker 1: not whether your animal was bigger than somebody else's animal. 1460 01:44:47,120 --> 01:44:49,800 Speaker 1: You know, it's the glory of the day and the 1461 01:44:50,080 --> 01:44:54,720 Speaker 1: experience you had. And uh, is that the message you 1462 01:44:55,200 --> 01:44:58,800 Speaker 1: that you would I want to give desire to give 1463 01:44:58,920 --> 01:45:01,880 Speaker 1: to because I wouldn't say young hunters, but new hunters, 1464 01:45:01,960 --> 01:45:05,960 Speaker 1: people that are trying to examine their own pursuits and 1465 01:45:06,080 --> 01:45:09,000 Speaker 1: understand what their motivations really are. Sure, and I think 1466 01:45:09,080 --> 01:45:12,280 Speaker 1: the more you learn about the conservation ethic buried in 1467 01:45:12,520 --> 01:45:17,360 Speaker 1: this democracy of the wild, We've got this country most 1468 01:45:17,439 --> 01:45:22,240 Speaker 1: places on Earth, you know, the uh, Fertile Crescent didn't 1469 01:45:22,280 --> 01:45:24,920 Speaker 1: go from a forest so dense the sunlight could reach, 1470 01:45:25,200 --> 01:45:36,519 Speaker 1: couldn't shine through to a sandpile by accident, because here 1471 01:45:36,560 --> 01:45:42,599 Speaker 1: we had and subsequently that was you know, I think, 1472 01:45:42,720 --> 01:45:47,000 Speaker 1: seven thousand years ago. But nonetheless, that's what happened to 1473 01:45:47,080 --> 01:45:51,639 Speaker 1: the land because there was no relationship between the people 1474 01:45:52,080 --> 01:45:55,600 Speaker 1: and the things that were out there, and granted, you know, 1475 01:45:56,880 --> 01:46:00,600 Speaker 1: when the Marines landed there, Soddam had his private anelope 1476 01:46:00,640 --> 01:46:07,360 Speaker 1: hunting ground, and the Marines that were camped near Saddam 1477 01:46:07,520 --> 01:46:15,160 Speaker 1: Hussein's private fenced in hunting ground started supplementing their meals 1478 01:46:15,400 --> 01:46:21,800 Speaker 1: of with wild game and they imposed a bag limit 1479 01:46:21,920 --> 01:46:27,120 Speaker 1: on themselves. Wow, that's the strength and the depth of 1480 01:46:27,200 --> 01:46:31,960 Speaker 1: the conservation ethic in North America. Like I said, there's this. 1481 01:46:32,120 --> 01:46:34,559 Speaker 1: It seems it seems as though that's a great example 1482 01:46:34,640 --> 01:46:37,479 Speaker 1: of like this innate value system that we have and 1483 01:46:37,560 --> 01:46:40,080 Speaker 1: it's borne in us for some reason, and we and 1484 01:46:40,280 --> 01:46:43,640 Speaker 1: we purge it out with this commercial hype that we 1485 01:46:43,800 --> 01:46:49,040 Speaker 1: pour onto this first of all the tournament to something 1486 01:46:49,160 --> 01:46:56,040 Speaker 1: monetary and then go through this big restoration process and 1487 01:46:56,160 --> 01:47:01,240 Speaker 1: now the camp you know, the camp utalizers, I guess, 1488 01:47:02,080 --> 01:47:07,880 Speaker 1: or again stalking the commons very much. They are, very 1489 01:47:07,960 --> 01:47:12,280 Speaker 1: much they are. And again, as we go through this conversation, 1490 01:47:12,360 --> 01:47:14,479 Speaker 1: the history of what we do and what we love, 1491 01:47:15,840 --> 01:47:18,720 Speaker 1: the sides of the coins seem to be the same 1492 01:47:18,800 --> 01:47:20,960 Speaker 1: as you flip it, you know, it seems to be 1493 01:47:21,080 --> 01:47:27,400 Speaker 1: there's um takers and there's caretakers at some level. Absolutely, 1494 01:47:27,560 --> 01:47:31,880 Speaker 1: and uh, that's probably not going to change. And as 1495 01:47:31,960 --> 01:47:39,800 Speaker 1: long as uh, we keep pushing our d NA forward. Well, Jim, 1496 01:47:39,880 --> 01:47:42,600 Speaker 1: I like what you're saying about fair chase as a 1497 01:47:43,720 --> 01:47:48,759 Speaker 1: almost a state of mind or a journey through life. 1498 01:47:50,240 --> 01:47:52,680 Speaker 1: But there's a difficulty in that if that's, you know, 1499 01:47:52,800 --> 01:47:56,000 Speaker 1: what we're trying to abide by, because there will always 1500 01:47:56,080 --> 01:47:59,240 Speaker 1: be be takers. And the way it seems that you're 1501 01:48:00,280 --> 01:48:09,160 Speaker 1: portraying this, it seems difficult to impose personal decisions onto others. 1502 01:48:09,200 --> 01:48:11,800 Speaker 1: How do you how do you navigate that? Ya? How 1503 01:48:11,840 --> 01:48:14,160 Speaker 1: do you tell someone don't do that? That that? How 1504 01:48:14,320 --> 01:48:19,719 Speaker 1: how can one say that's not fair chase to another 1505 01:48:19,960 --> 01:48:25,479 Speaker 1: to another hunter? Well? Right, And it's different at different 1506 01:48:25,600 --> 01:48:29,320 Speaker 1: stages in the in the individual's evolution as a hunter. 1507 01:48:30,560 --> 01:48:33,679 Speaker 1: You know, there's probably a time when a young hunter 1508 01:48:34,400 --> 01:48:37,080 Speaker 1: still thinks the only purpose in being out there is 1509 01:48:37,160 --> 01:48:43,320 Speaker 1: to take. And the sooner we move that threshold of 1510 01:48:44,000 --> 01:48:51,120 Speaker 1: understanding forward. And I think you know, today materials are 1511 01:48:51,160 --> 01:48:56,479 Speaker 1: available that you can sort of infect the young hunter 1512 01:48:56,680 --> 01:48:59,760 Speaker 1: with with an idea or a thought or a sense 1513 01:48:59,840 --> 01:49:02,960 Speaker 1: of value. And I think it helps people who are 1514 01:49:03,479 --> 01:49:06,600 Speaker 1: are sitting on the border saying I'm not sure I 1515 01:49:06,680 --> 01:49:10,960 Speaker 1: want to be a hunter. I mean, I sure like wildlife, 1516 01:49:11,960 --> 01:49:16,360 Speaker 1: is it okay? And uh, that's those are the kind 1517 01:49:16,400 --> 01:49:19,480 Speaker 1: of people we're looking for and to have material available 1518 01:49:19,600 --> 01:49:23,600 Speaker 1: for them. Uh, you know beyond fair chase was just 1519 01:49:23,720 --> 01:49:26,840 Speaker 1: step one. Okay, you want to you want to be 1520 01:49:27,000 --> 01:49:31,160 Speaker 1: a hunter? Think about it this way and and I 1521 01:49:31,280 --> 01:49:35,599 Speaker 1: think the net effect of that will will show up 1522 01:49:35,760 --> 01:49:40,640 Speaker 1: is in society as we as we progress here. And 1523 01:49:41,360 --> 01:49:45,440 Speaker 1: the other thing is to tell them, you know, appreciate 1524 01:49:45,600 --> 01:49:49,840 Speaker 1: the real beauty of of what you got out there. 1525 01:49:51,200 --> 01:49:54,920 Speaker 1: Not only don't you have to take anything, but you 1526 01:49:55,000 --> 01:49:58,840 Speaker 1: can have a great day and let one walk on 1527 01:49:59,040 --> 01:50:05,840 Speaker 1: by if you want, because you just, uh, I guess, 1528 01:50:05,960 --> 01:50:10,480 Speaker 1: make choices that try to enrich the your lifetime experience 1529 01:50:10,560 --> 01:50:17,040 Speaker 1: for yourself. Realizing that or accepting the fact that some 1530 01:50:17,200 --> 01:50:19,720 Speaker 1: of this may take time. You know, you may have 1531 01:50:19,840 --> 01:50:22,200 Speaker 1: to have a handful of experiences. You may have to 1532 01:50:22,280 --> 01:50:25,960 Speaker 1: find time to go to a book cabinet and read 1533 01:50:26,040 --> 01:50:31,040 Speaker 1: the autobiography of Theatre Roosevelt. It's a thick one, or 1534 01:50:31,680 --> 01:50:34,720 Speaker 1: I mean, so many people have written about him, but 1535 01:50:34,880 --> 01:50:38,320 Speaker 1: there's a marvelous consistency that comes out of the more 1536 01:50:38,400 --> 01:50:43,240 Speaker 1: of it you read, you find very few contradictions. And uh, 1537 01:50:44,600 --> 01:50:48,720 Speaker 1: in fact, after I read his autobiography, I read his 1538 01:50:49,160 --> 01:50:56,920 Speaker 1: wife either wrote as Abell's autobiography to see competing intermation. Yeah, sure, 1539 01:50:56,920 --> 01:50:59,240 Speaker 1: if you read my wife's autobiography to be like a 1540 01:50:59,320 --> 01:51:05,360 Speaker 1: lot of life, that jackass, that could be a private title. Um, now, 1541 01:51:05,479 --> 01:51:08,479 Speaker 1: it's it is interesting, you know when when to introduce 1542 01:51:08,560 --> 01:51:10,439 Speaker 1: those things and how? You know, I think we use 1543 01:51:10,479 --> 01:51:14,760 Speaker 1: modern hunters, you in your hunting life, Um, have not 1544 01:51:14,960 --> 01:51:17,400 Speaker 1: had to struggle with a thing called social media. You know, 1545 01:51:18,600 --> 01:51:22,320 Speaker 1: we're I feel like infantile in our communication on this platform. 1546 01:51:22,439 --> 01:51:25,920 Speaker 1: And hunters I think have been struck with the conundrum 1547 01:51:26,000 --> 01:51:29,080 Speaker 1: that is is unique to this time, in this generation. 1548 01:51:29,240 --> 01:51:32,240 Speaker 1: You know, we we now I believe I'm thirty three. 1549 01:51:32,320 --> 01:51:36,280 Speaker 1: I believe that my generation of folks, millennials, I'm in 1550 01:51:36,400 --> 01:51:41,479 Speaker 1: that generation. Sad to say that millennials can no longer 1551 01:51:41,560 --> 01:51:45,040 Speaker 1: walk into a room in most places. Maybe Montana is 1552 01:51:45,040 --> 01:51:46,880 Speaker 1: a little bit different, but in most places in the world, 1553 01:51:46,960 --> 01:51:50,080 Speaker 1: in the in this country, say I'm a hunter without 1554 01:51:50,160 --> 01:51:53,680 Speaker 1: have to having to then explain why, like what how 1555 01:51:53,760 --> 01:51:58,000 Speaker 1: it benefits? How can you You can't be like, hey, 1556 01:51:58,000 --> 01:52:01,200 Speaker 1: I'm a hunter and the next someone will ask you why. 1557 01:52:02,439 --> 01:52:04,280 Speaker 1: And I think the y is just how does this 1558 01:52:04,360 --> 01:52:06,519 Speaker 1: benefit society? And so now we have a bunch of 1559 01:52:06,560 --> 01:52:11,640 Speaker 1: people struggling to communicate on its mass platform. With that 1560 01:52:11,760 --> 01:52:16,200 Speaker 1: everyone has access to what we're actually doing, and it 1561 01:52:16,520 --> 01:52:20,640 Speaker 1: gets sensationalized, it gets misrepresented, it gets boiled down to 1562 01:52:20,800 --> 01:52:24,360 Speaker 1: one little photo. There's so many point touch points for 1563 01:52:24,439 --> 01:52:28,960 Speaker 1: hunting that weren't there, you know, during your during your 1564 01:52:29,000 --> 01:52:31,800 Speaker 1: formative years. You know, there's people can reach into the 1565 01:52:31,840 --> 01:52:36,640 Speaker 1: honey community. Education then yeah, yeah, I mean the n 1566 01:52:36,800 --> 01:52:40,519 Speaker 1: r A had the hunter shooting safety programs, I think, yeah, 1567 01:52:40,680 --> 01:52:43,280 Speaker 1: but they weren't required and I never took a hunter 1568 01:52:43,520 --> 01:52:46,920 Speaker 1: D course. Yeah, and so your communication around hunting was 1569 01:52:47,160 --> 01:52:49,120 Speaker 1: you know, even you were saying in some some of 1570 01:52:49,160 --> 01:52:50,639 Speaker 1: your later work is like we were trying to get 1571 01:52:50,760 --> 01:52:52,760 Speaker 1: the magazine out, you know, we're trying to get these 1572 01:52:52,800 --> 01:52:56,759 Speaker 1: printed materials out. And now the information at our fingertips, 1573 01:52:56,800 --> 01:52:59,360 Speaker 1: I think puts puts the modern hunter in this in 1574 01:52:59,439 --> 01:53:04,240 Speaker 1: this well, it certainly accesses a hunter to a body 1575 01:53:04,320 --> 01:53:08,040 Speaker 1: of knowledge that I never stumbled across until I mean, 1576 01:53:08,200 --> 01:53:14,760 Speaker 1: like my seventies, for god's sakes. Yeah, and uh, it's 1577 01:53:14,840 --> 01:53:18,200 Speaker 1: kind of like you sit on the point of a 1578 01:53:18,320 --> 01:53:23,640 Speaker 1: pyramid double sword. Well, I don't know my hands work here, 1579 01:53:23,720 --> 01:53:28,519 Speaker 1: but you know you're sitting there with a photo of 1580 01:53:28,640 --> 01:53:32,080 Speaker 1: a dead deer and you're kind of the top stone 1581 01:53:32,240 --> 01:53:35,360 Speaker 1: on the pyramid. And the more you know about the 1582 01:53:36,320 --> 01:53:42,880 Speaker 1: vase all went into that being possible, the more appreciative 1583 01:53:42,960 --> 01:53:47,599 Speaker 1: you will be. And uh, I think the probability when 1584 01:53:47,640 --> 01:53:51,720 Speaker 1: you appreciate all that it took to get that to 1585 01:53:52,000 --> 01:53:57,360 Speaker 1: your custody. The more you appreciate that, the more likely 1586 01:53:57,479 --> 01:54:02,440 Speaker 1: you are to contribute, look for a way to contribute, 1587 01:54:02,439 --> 01:54:05,840 Speaker 1: and to learn more and more higher have a higher 1588 01:54:05,960 --> 01:54:08,439 Speaker 1: degree of satisfaction. Yeah, do you feel like, just just 1589 01:54:08,560 --> 01:54:12,000 Speaker 1: almost by osmosis, that that that appreciation would transfer to 1590 01:54:12,080 --> 01:54:16,040 Speaker 1: somebody who's never done it before, Like would be so relevantly, 1591 01:54:16,080 --> 01:54:19,120 Speaker 1: you know, so readily seen, and the imagery of the communication, 1592 01:54:19,160 --> 01:54:20,880 Speaker 1: and like, well, I think they would cause them to 1593 01:54:21,000 --> 01:54:24,519 Speaker 1: hunger for the experience. You know, that's that laid out 1594 01:54:25,040 --> 01:54:28,639 Speaker 1: as an option in front of them and in their 1595 01:54:28,720 --> 01:54:33,280 Speaker 1: democracy where anybody who wants to can give it, can 1596 01:54:33,360 --> 01:54:38,480 Speaker 1: take a shot literally literally, that's well put hunger for 1597 01:54:38,560 --> 01:54:41,080 Speaker 1: the experience. I think I learned of all the things 1598 01:54:41,120 --> 01:54:42,960 Speaker 1: we've talked about, that's a learning that I'll take away 1599 01:54:43,000 --> 01:54:47,240 Speaker 1: because I really do feel I I just I probably 1600 01:54:47,280 --> 01:54:49,680 Speaker 1: make it more complicated for myself and I than I should. 1601 01:54:50,160 --> 01:54:53,000 Speaker 1: But I feel like, no, it'll just come like a flash. 1602 01:54:53,080 --> 01:54:55,360 Speaker 1: I mean, when those three guys stopped on the trail, 1603 01:54:57,280 --> 01:55:00,120 Speaker 1: that's to date, that's the best trophy I've ever egg. 1604 01:55:02,000 --> 01:55:04,840 Speaker 1: That's amazing. And I made a huge mistake of not 1605 01:55:05,000 --> 01:55:08,600 Speaker 1: finding out who they were. Well, if they're listening to this, yeah, 1606 01:55:09,080 --> 01:55:11,120 Speaker 1: the older man on the trail would like to say 1607 01:55:11,200 --> 01:55:17,480 Speaker 1: thank you. Yeah, that's right. I mean, how many activities 1608 01:55:17,560 --> 01:55:21,600 Speaker 1: do you engage in that you can get so emotionally 1609 01:55:21,720 --> 01:55:26,760 Speaker 1: moved that you sit and cry your eyes out because 1610 01:55:26,920 --> 01:55:30,960 Speaker 1: it's just so powerful and you think, Holy Macro, thank 1611 01:55:31,000 --> 01:55:35,280 Speaker 1: you Jesus for putting me here, you know, giving me 1612 01:55:35,400 --> 01:55:41,120 Speaker 1: this generation or whoever you know puts this all together 1613 01:55:41,240 --> 01:55:44,000 Speaker 1: for you. Well, well we thank you. I thank you, 1614 01:55:44,080 --> 01:55:46,600 Speaker 1: I'm sure Sam, thanks for taking the time to talk 1615 01:55:46,680 --> 01:55:51,800 Speaker 1: to us, for your works and hunting and you guys 1616 01:55:51,840 --> 01:55:58,600 Speaker 1: are tough. A lot of questions man, man, and uh yeah, 1617 01:55:58,680 --> 01:56:00,960 Speaker 1: I just yeah, I just feel thankful that we were 1618 01:56:00,960 --> 01:56:03,000 Speaker 1: able to spend this time and thanks for having us 1619 01:56:03,040 --> 01:56:06,960 Speaker 1: here and and any old time. Thanks for being a 1620 01:56:07,080 --> 01:56:11,000 Speaker 1: steward for for generations to come. For what else couldn't 1621 01:56:11,000 --> 01:56:13,920 Speaker 1: you do? Who got all that stuff in your head? 1622 01:56:14,840 --> 01:56:18,320 Speaker 1: Just a lot, a lot to get out? Well, thank 1623 01:56:18,360 --> 01:56:22,240 Speaker 1: you again, and and I can't wait to another conversation. Yeah, 1624 01:56:22,280 --> 01:56:24,840 Speaker 1: I always great talking with you. Well, thank you, Thanks 1625 01:56:24,920 --> 01:56:27,880 Speaker 1: Jan I'm looking forward to Alzheimer's running forget all this stuff, 1626 01:56:30,120 --> 01:56:37,400 Speaker 1: the world less complicated? Thank you. That's it. That is 1627 01:56:37,800 --> 01:56:41,040 Speaker 1: all another episode of the Hunty Collective. In the books 1628 01:56:41,800 --> 01:56:44,240 Speaker 1: So Privileged, you have a chance to sit down with 1629 01:56:44,320 --> 01:56:48,040 Speaker 1: Jim Pozzlewits to learn about his life, to let you 1630 01:56:48,200 --> 01:56:50,440 Speaker 1: all in on what he's done with his life, the 1631 01:56:50,600 --> 01:56:55,120 Speaker 1: story of his journey through the hunting world and the 1632 01:56:55,200 --> 01:56:58,600 Speaker 1: conservation world into developing the ethic he has around both 1633 01:56:58,680 --> 01:57:03,160 Speaker 1: of those things. I hope, very hopeful that this informs 1634 01:57:03,200 --> 01:57:06,440 Speaker 1: you and inspires you to do good work in our world. 1635 01:57:06,680 --> 01:57:11,720 Speaker 1: It certainly has for me and Sam as well. So 1636 01:57:11,840 --> 01:57:14,720 Speaker 1: onto the next thing. What are we doing right now 1637 01:57:14,760 --> 01:57:16,280 Speaker 1: in meat either and I always try to let you 1638 01:57:16,320 --> 01:57:18,640 Speaker 1: know what we're up to, where we're going, what we're 1639 01:57:18,640 --> 01:57:21,240 Speaker 1: trying to do, what we're trying to grow. And at 1640 01:57:21,360 --> 01:57:24,720 Speaker 1: this point in time, we really want you to go 1641 01:57:24,880 --> 01:57:27,640 Speaker 1: over to the meat Eater's store and check out what's 1642 01:57:27,680 --> 01:57:31,360 Speaker 1: there and see. If you can't find a T shirt 1643 01:57:31,600 --> 01:57:34,160 Speaker 1: or a hat or maybe a hoodie, you never know 1644 01:57:34,240 --> 01:57:36,120 Speaker 1: what you'll find there. There's all kinds of cool stuff 1645 01:57:36,160 --> 01:57:38,200 Speaker 1: with a hunting collective logo, with the meat Eata logo. 1646 01:57:38,720 --> 01:57:42,680 Speaker 1: There's an awesome shirt for my boy Ryan Callahan. Smells now, lady. 1647 01:57:43,280 --> 01:57:47,120 Speaker 1: You'll see that there, so get it done. Get over there. Also, 1648 01:57:48,360 --> 01:57:51,919 Speaker 1: I will be appearing at many of the live podcast 1649 01:57:52,000 --> 01:57:55,280 Speaker 1: events during the Meat Eat to Live podcast tour. That's 1650 01:57:55,360 --> 01:57:56,960 Speaker 1: gonna be fun. We're gonna be a lot of towns. 1651 01:57:57,000 --> 01:57:58,480 Speaker 1: We'll hope to see you there. There's vi i P 1652 01:57:58,640 --> 01:58:01,080 Speaker 1: tickets some available. Mos are sold out, but there are 1653 01:58:01,200 --> 01:58:05,200 Speaker 1: some v i P tickets available and we want you 1654 01:58:05,400 --> 01:58:08,680 Speaker 1: to show up and hang with us at these events. 1655 01:58:09,360 --> 01:58:13,240 Speaker 1: And if you've never been to one, it's basically a 1656 01:58:13,320 --> 01:58:16,080 Speaker 1: bunch of us sitting on a stage doing a podcast 1657 01:58:16,160 --> 01:58:18,600 Speaker 1: talking about what we love. So I'll be appearing. If 1658 01:58:18,640 --> 01:58:20,000 Speaker 1: you want the dates, you can go to the meat 1659 01:58:20,040 --> 01:58:25,320 Speaker 1: eator dot com slash Events, slash Live Podcasts and you'll 1660 01:58:25,360 --> 01:58:27,360 Speaker 1: find the dates there. But if you just want me 1661 01:58:27,400 --> 01:58:30,480 Speaker 1: to tell you right now, I will. It's Reno on 1662 01:58:30,680 --> 01:58:34,640 Speaker 1: February seven, Live at the Sheep Show. That's some tickets 1663 01:58:34,680 --> 01:58:36,960 Speaker 1: available for that and get over there sign those up. 1664 01:58:37,000 --> 01:58:40,000 Speaker 1: The doors open to one thirty pm. I'll be in 1665 01:58:40,120 --> 01:58:44,200 Speaker 1: Sacramento on February nine at eight pm at the Crest 1666 01:58:44,280 --> 01:58:49,360 Speaker 1: Theater with the crew, and I'll also be adding one 1667 01:58:49,440 --> 01:58:54,240 Speaker 1: more as I will be at the Boise show at 1668 01:58:54,320 --> 01:58:58,000 Speaker 1: the Live at the b h A Rendezvous and that's 1669 01:58:58,040 --> 01:59:00,240 Speaker 1: on May three. Tickets are not on set right now, 1670 01:59:00,280 --> 01:59:02,080 Speaker 1: but they are coming soon and there will be other 1671 01:59:02,120 --> 01:59:04,720 Speaker 1: shows added than I'm likely be attending those as well. 1672 01:59:05,360 --> 01:59:07,960 Speaker 1: Regardless of where I am, you should try to get 1673 01:59:08,320 --> 01:59:11,480 Speaker 1: to where the Mediator Podcast Live Tour is because we'd 1674 01:59:11,520 --> 01:59:13,320 Speaker 1: love to see you there man, and it is. It 1675 01:59:13,520 --> 01:59:19,120 Speaker 1: is uh a real tangible event where you can come 1676 01:59:19,160 --> 01:59:20,600 Speaker 1: and hang with us and hear from us, and we 1677 01:59:20,640 --> 01:59:23,640 Speaker 1: can hear from you. Um we really I think everybody 1678 01:59:23,640 --> 01:59:26,600 Speaker 1: on this team would say they really appreciate anyone who 1679 01:59:26,640 --> 01:59:30,200 Speaker 1: comes out to spend time, money and energy on what 1680 01:59:30,360 --> 01:59:34,160 Speaker 1: we believe is the right thing to talk about. So 1681 01:59:34,280 --> 01:59:36,560 Speaker 1: with that, we hope to see in those towns. I 1682 01:59:36,680 --> 01:59:39,280 Speaker 1: will be talking to you next week on the Hunting 1683 01:59:39,280 --> 01:59:43,440 Speaker 1: Collective podcast with another great guest. Hopefully you will enjoy 1684 01:59:44,240 --> 01:59:44,520 Speaker 1: see you