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Speaker 3: Hey, Daniel, I've got a black hole question for you.

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Speaker 1: Uh oh, are you still hoping to catch and raise

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Speaker 1: a black hole as a pet in your backyard?

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Speaker 3: I can't confirm or deny that, But my question is

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Speaker 3: what happens to stuff I put into the black hole?

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Speaker 1: Is this a question you already asked the folks at

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Speaker 1: pet Smart.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, like, say, if I drop a banana

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Speaker 3: into a black hole, what happens to it? Is it

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Speaker 3: gone forever?

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Speaker 1: My advice is don't do it?

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Speaker 3: Which part raise a black hole or throw a banana

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Speaker 3: into it? Because I may have done both already.

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Speaker 1: What's the difference? I mean, if you feed a black hole,

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Speaker 1: it will grow, and a growing black hole will eat more,

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Speaker 1: and eventually it will eat your house and then.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So it's not a good idea to use a

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Speaker 3: black hole to make bananas moothies.

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Speaker 1: Officially, no, not a good idea.

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Speaker 4: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jorge. I'm a cartoonist and the creator of PhD comics.

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Speaker 1: Hi I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist. And I have

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Speaker 1: never created a black hole to my knowledge.

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Speaker 3: So how do you know, Daniel? Maybe you do it

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Speaker 3: in your sleep by accident.

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Speaker 1: Hey, I can't be responsible for all incidental black holes

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Speaker 1: I accidentally create, right, I mean, there's got to be

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Speaker 1: some legal principle there.

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Speaker 3: Do you ever take homes any work by accident, you know,

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Speaker 3: like you accidentally bring home some particles or some black

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Speaker 3: holes that were created at the lac.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes I go home with a few extra protons

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Speaker 1: in my pocket. Nobody even notices.

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Speaker 3: No, that doesn't sound good. But welcome to our podcast

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Speaker 3: Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of IRT Radio.

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Speaker 1: In which we tell you all about the mysteries of

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Speaker 1: the universe, the incredible cosmic questions that still make scientists puzzled,

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Speaker 1: the things that we all wonder about this incredible, beautiful

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Speaker 1: universe that we live in, that we'd all desperately like

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Speaker 1: to understand.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I take home work all the time, Daniel, because

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Speaker 3: I work from home. I'm a cartoonist.

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Speaker 1: So I think you take your home to work, then,

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Speaker 1: don't you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know the tomato tomato, it's all the same thing. Well,

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Speaker 3: that's right. This is our podcast about the universe and

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Speaker 3: all the amazing and mysterious things that are out there

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Speaker 3: for us to discover.

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Speaker 1: That's right, all those weird things floating in the cosmos

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Speaker 1: doing strange, violent, incredible stuff, and our attempts as lowly

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Speaker 1: humans to understand them. Is it really possible to unravel

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Speaker 1: the mysteries of the universe and lay them out inside

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Speaker 1: a human mind. We will find out today and tomorrow

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Speaker 1: and the next one hundred episodes of our podcast.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because you know, it sometimes feels like we're building

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Speaker 3: this model of the universe kind of like we're building

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Speaker 3: a whole universe kind of inside of our heads and

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Speaker 3: our physics theories, almost like a hologrammar That's right.

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Speaker 1: It's incredible to imagine that the whole external universe, if

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Speaker 1: it even exists, might be describable inside a human mind, right,

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Speaker 1: Like you could represent it somehow in terms of arrangements

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Speaker 1: of neurons. Right, And that's I think the kind of

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Speaker 1: idea that makes people think like maybe the entire universe

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Speaker 1: is actually just a projection of some other kind of

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Speaker 1: physical arrangement.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I've always wondered like maybe our brains just aren't equipped

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Speaker 3: to like understand the universe. Do you ever wonder about that?

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Speaker 1: Oh, I'm almost certain that we are not capable of

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Speaker 1: understanding the universe at its deepest level.

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Speaker 3: Oh, so are we doomed to always not know the universe?

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Speaker 1: I think there's never going to be a point where

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Speaker 1: we're satisfied that we think we understand And you know,

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Speaker 1: imagine the kind of super intelligence that would be necessary

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Speaker 1: to like fully grasp the universe. Like think about your dog.

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Speaker 1: Your dog is intelligent, but it certainly doesn't understand all

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Speaker 1: the physics of the universe. And so compared to some

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Speaker 1: super intelligent aliens out there, we are as smart as dogs,

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Speaker 1: and there's no way that we could understand the universe

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Speaker 1: at the level that they do. And so you essentially

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Speaker 1: have to be infinitely intelligent to understand the whole universe.

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Speaker 3: Interesting, and could an infinite intelligence exist in the universe,

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Speaker 3: that'd be so that would be a lot.

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Speaker 1: It would create an intelligence black hole inside its mind

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Speaker 1: because you can't store that much information or that much

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Speaker 1: smart in a small space.

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Speaker 3: Oh man, we've just covered dogs and black holes in

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Speaker 3: like the first three minutes.

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Speaker 1: Major and including brains.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, so we talked about all of the mysterious things.

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Speaker 3: And one of the favorite mysterious things that we like

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Speaker 3: to talk about are black holes, because they're so mysterious

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Speaker 3: and it seems like, you know, there are these black

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Speaker 3: pockets in almost their own universes, and it seems like

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Speaker 3: anything you throw into it can never ever come out.

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Speaker 1: And they're especially wonderful and fascinating because they came out

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Speaker 1: of the human mind initially. It's not something we saw

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Speaker 1: in the universe. It's an idea we have. We said,

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Speaker 1: if the laws of physics are the way we think

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Speaker 1: they are, then these things should exist to be like

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Speaker 1: mapped something inside our minds out into the universe and

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Speaker 1: then went out and actually found them. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: incredible right to think that our understanding of the universe

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Speaker 1: could be so sophisticated and impressive that we can predict

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Speaker 1: crazy new bonker stuff out there which turns out to

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Speaker 1: be real. I think that's really impressive.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, good jobs, physicists.

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Speaker 1: Even though we are dogs compared to intelligenaily yes, nothing

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Speaker 1: against dogs. Of course, dogs very smart. That's why I

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Speaker 1: chose them phys this example, and not cats.

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Speaker 3: Right, I think cats are smarter cats.

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Speaker 1: They're not smarter than dogs. Man, you cannot train a cat.

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Speaker 1: That's proof number one. That's cats are not smarter than dogs.

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Speaker 3: Maybe like cats are mathematicians and dogs are physicists. Would

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Speaker 3: you say that's a fair fair comparison.

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Speaker 1: Well, if you're saying that dogs are smarter than cats,

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Speaker 1: that I agree with you.

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Speaker 3: A mathematicians are just sneakier, that's right.

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Speaker 1: No, But black hole are a fascinating mystery and one

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Speaker 1: that began inside the human brain, but one that we

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Speaker 1: still don't really understand. I mean, we found them, we

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Speaker 1: see them out there, but it's a continuous source of

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Speaker 1: mystery and puzzlement for people everywhere and for a scientist.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's amazing that we've seen it, like we

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Speaker 3: found one, like they took pictures of one sort of

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Speaker 3: last year, and it's like it's real, it's there, you

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Speaker 3: can see it, and it looks like what we thought

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Speaker 3: they looked like.

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Speaker 1: That's right. The picture of the black hole shows you

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Speaker 1: all the incredible gas swirling around it that's trying desperately

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Speaker 1: to avoid falling into the black hole and in the

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Speaker 1: process is bouncing around against all the other gas and

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Speaker 1: emitting lots of radiation. So we're not seeing the black

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Speaker 1: hole directly. You know, although we see a black spot there,

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Speaker 1: we're seeing mostly the swirling, chaotic, crazy gas that's surrounding.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I guess you're right, because I mean, we see

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Speaker 3: the black center, but there's nothing to see there because

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Speaker 3: nothing can come out, or at least that's the idea

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Speaker 3: of a black hole. And so the question then kind

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Speaker 3: of becomes what happens to stuff that goes into it?

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Speaker 3: Is it gone forever? Or can it be recovered?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Is that stuff just like hanging out inside the

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Speaker 1: black hole having a great time with all the other stuff?

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Speaker 1: Does it get squeezed into some new form of matter?

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Speaker 1: Is it all in a singularity in the middle. It's

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Speaker 1: one of the deepest questions in physics, what's going on

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Speaker 1: inside a black hole and what happened to the stuff

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Speaker 1: that fell in?

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Speaker 3: So to they on the podcast, we'll be asking the

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Speaker 3: question does a black hole destroy information? I guess that's

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Speaker 3: an interesting question because you know, it's kind of like

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Speaker 3: asking what happens to stuff that goes in, Like does

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Speaker 3: it get destroyed like obliterated? Does it become pure energy, unadultered,

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Speaker 3: unfiltered energy that you can't make out what it is?

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Speaker 3: Or does it you know, does a quark stay a

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Speaker 3: cork inside of the black hole? And does it still

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Speaker 3: fly around? And does it even know it's in a

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Speaker 3: black hole?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean, are you wondering about what happened to

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Speaker 1: that banana you dropped into your black hole?

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Speaker 3: I'm still wondering about my banana, Daniel. I want it back,

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Speaker 3: my dog needs it.

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Speaker 1: Do you like eating bananas when they're black, because that's

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Speaker 1: probably what happened to you to your banana?

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Speaker 3: Do you mean it turned into a smoovie? Basically?

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Speaker 1: Basically? But it's a fascinating question, like when something goes

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Speaker 1: into a black hole, is a black hole like a

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Speaker 1: cosmic hard drive? Does it like just compress everything into

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Speaker 1: some new arrangement but effectively keeping track of all the

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Speaker 1: particles that came in? Or is it actually deleting stuff

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Speaker 1: from the universe, turning into some new configuration that doesn't

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Speaker 1: have any information about what happened before it. That's a

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Speaker 1: fascinating question.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. And so we have a lot to impact here

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Speaker 3: about black holes and information. But at first, we, as usual,

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Speaker 3: we were wondering how many people out there had heard

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Speaker 3: of this question of whether black holes keep or destroy

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Speaker 3: information and so, as usual, Daniel went out there and

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Speaker 3: asked people on the internet what they thought of this question.

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Speaker 1: That's right, So thank you to everybody who volunteered to

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Speaker 1: answer random questions. If you're willing to participate and like

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Speaker 1: to hear your uninformed speculation on the podcast, right to

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Speaker 1: us to questions at Daniel and Jorge dot com. YouTube

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Speaker 1: can answer these random questions.

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Speaker 3: Think about it very a second, and what do you

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Speaker 3: know about information and black holes and what goes into them?

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Speaker 3: Here's what people had to say.

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Speaker 6: I think information disappears inside a black hole. My understanding

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Speaker 6: of Hawking's radiation is that when a particle interacts with

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Speaker 6: the black hole, information is lost. Therefore, the black hole

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Speaker 6: behaves like a darbage disposal.

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Speaker 7: Ah, so I do know a little bit about this.

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Speaker 7: So I read a book by Leonard Suskin which was

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Speaker 7: talking about the black hole wars. Stephen Hawkin believe that

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Speaker 7: they did disappear. Information did disappear, and Lana Suskin said

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Speaker 7: it didn't. I think it's something to do with holographic

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Speaker 7: principle that basically all the data stays on the event horizon.

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Speaker 3: Yes, information disappears from black holes because they lose mass.

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Speaker 3: Through hockey radiation.

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Speaker 8: They're more like garbage disposals than hard drives, since you

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Speaker 8: can't retrieve any information that's stored in them.

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Speaker 9: My guest would be that once an object you have

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Speaker 9: to sucked into a black hole, it is obliterated into

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Speaker 9: its most smallest particles that exist, and those things float

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Speaker 9: around and mesh around with other particles and probably no

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Speaker 9: longer resemble whatever it is that they used to make

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Speaker 9: up planets, bananas, bunnies, or whatever it is.

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Speaker 8: I think they like store information and then eventually, in

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Speaker 8: like trillions and trillions and trillions of years, there's like

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Speaker 8: hawking radiation that radiates you know it out and black

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Speaker 8: holes go away.

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Speaker 10: As far as I understand, physics falls apart inside a

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Speaker 10: black hole.

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Speaker 11: I've read that information doesn't disappear as such, and that

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Speaker 11: all the information inside the black hole would be somehow

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Speaker 11: readable on the horizon.

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Speaker 4: Whatever goes in there just gets squished into a really tiny,

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Speaker 4: small space.

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Speaker 1: So I'd probably say they're more like a garbage disposal.

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Speaker 1: What goes in doesn't come out.

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Speaker 4: I don't think so. I think it depends what the

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Speaker 4: of a black hole is, which we don't know. If

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Speaker 4: it's an infinite density single point, then it's probably more

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Speaker 4: like a garbage disposal. But if it's not, then I

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Speaker 4: would assume information can enter it and just gets trapped.

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Speaker 3: Quivocate on this, and so I shall leave it to

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Speaker 3: my learnard colleagues.

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Speaker 1: Daniel Watson an Yogai Chan restaurants.

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Speaker 5: That so, I don't think that information disappears inside black hole.

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Speaker 5: I think information is recorded on the edge of black hole.

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Speaker 1: Information cannot disappear, like energy cannot disappear.

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Speaker 3: All right, not a good outlook for what happens to

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Speaker 3: stuff that goes into the black hole. Nobody thinks it's

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Speaker 3: hanging out happily inside.

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Speaker 1: Nobody thinks that you're going to eat that banana. I

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Speaker 1: like that. There's basically every answer here. Information disappears, information

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Speaker 1: doesn't disappear, information is radiated out. They're basically garbage compactors.

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Speaker 1: A wonderful variety of answers here, Thank you to everybody

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Speaker 1: who participated.

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Speaker 3: A wonderful variety of analogies here. Like a garbage compactor,

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Speaker 3: Is it a garbage disposal? Is it a recycling bin?

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Speaker 1: I don't think the universe recycles. I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: like plastic in this black hole. Please, And you know,

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Speaker 1: wonder if black holes are just the universe is compost.

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Speaker 3: They're interesting. It could be right, they break stuff down

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Speaker 3: and maybe they store it for later, for a universe garden,

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Speaker 3: a star garden.

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Speaker 1: Or a storage forever. That's maybe the problem.

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Speaker 3: Well until the universe collapses and then everything gets recycled.

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Speaker 1: Right, that's a very optimistic view of what's going to

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Speaker 1: happen to your banana.

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Speaker 3: Well, this is an interesting topic, and so let's jump

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Speaker 3: right into it. This might take a while because some

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Speaker 3: of the things that we need to talk about include

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Speaker 3: information and quantum mechanics. And so before we sort of

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Speaker 3: get into the idea of what happens to information that

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Speaker 3: goes into a black hole, let's talk about kind of

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Speaker 3: information in general and how that works in a quantum reality.

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Speaker 1: That's right, because one of the mysteries of black holes

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Speaker 1: is what happens to the information that goes into them.

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Speaker 1: And so first we have to understand, like what is

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Speaker 1: information and what is quantum mechanics say about that information?

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Speaker 6: Right?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: So information is kind of like the arrangement of things,

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Speaker 3: like the physicists. Information is not like ones and zeros

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Speaker 3: or it's not like you know, a file or a number.

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Speaker 3: It's more like the arrangement of things.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, and it can be represented as ones or

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Speaker 1: zeros or you know, things you print on a piece

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Speaker 1: of paper. But fundamentally, it's the arrangement of the particles.

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Speaker 1: It's really it's the quantum wave function that tells you

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Speaker 1: where the particles are or where they are likely to be,

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Speaker 1: and how they are interacting. Remember that everything, me and

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Speaker 1: you and bananas and all that stuff are made out

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Speaker 1: of particles, and we're all made out of the same particles.

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Speaker 1: So the thing that's different between you and lava and

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Speaker 1: hamsters and bananas is not the stuff you're made out of.

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Speaker 1: That's really the same stuff that everything is made out of.

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Speaker 1: It's how that stuff is put together. It's like if

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Speaker 1: you had a book of recipes and they all had

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Speaker 1: exactly the same ingredients, just had different arrangements like where

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Speaker 1: you put the stuff. That's literally how things in the

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Speaker 1: universe are built. And so what we mean by information

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Speaker 1: from a physics point of view is just that is

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Speaker 1: how the particles are put together to make this versus that.

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Speaker 3: Right, And it's also kind of the history of them

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Speaker 3: a little bit, right, Like you can make a banana cake,

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Speaker 3: and I can make a banana cake, but they're going

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Speaker 3: to be different bananacages depending on, you know, what the

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Speaker 3: size of the pan I use, or whether I put

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Speaker 3: in a little bit more of this or a little

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Speaker 3: bit more of that, or how I poured it. They're

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Speaker 3: both in things like bananacagg but they're going to be

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Speaker 3: different banana cages because they were arranged kind of with

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Speaker 3: a different history.

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Speaker 1: And that's right. So our two banana cream pies both

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Speaker 1: have information about what happened to those bananas, how they

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Speaker 1: got there, how they originally were developed and grown and

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Speaker 1: blended up and turned into the banana cream pies. Because

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Speaker 1: our two banana cream pies are not identical, they contain

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Speaker 1: information about how they got there. Their arrangements are unique.

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Speaker 1: There's only one way to create that particular banana cream pie,

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Speaker 1: and so you could run the clock backwards and figure

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Speaker 1: out where everything came from in your pie.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think that's kind of what you're saying,

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Speaker 3: is that it's like, it's kind of like if you're

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Speaker 3: playing billiards or something, if you see all the balls

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Speaker 3: kind of arrange in a particular way on the table,

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Speaker 3: you can sort of backtrack how they all got to

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Speaker 3: how bill your balls usually start.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and that's what we mean when we say

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics does not destroy information. It says that you

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Speaker 1: can tell how you got to where you are. So,

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Speaker 1: just like you said in the billiard balls example, if

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Speaker 1: you see balls moving on the table, you can tell

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Speaker 1: how you got there. You say, well, this must have

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Speaker 1: happened in a certain way. You know, Bob must have

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Speaker 1: hit Alice's ball and it bounced off this wall, etcetera, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: There's only one way to get to this exact particular arrangement, right,

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Speaker 1: And so because information is not destroyed, it's all the

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Speaker 1: information you need to figure out how you got here

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Speaker 1: is present in this configuration. You could run the clock backwards,

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Speaker 1: you could run physics simulation backwards and figure out exactly

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Speaker 1: how you got to hear or run it forward.

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Speaker 3: Right like that, I think you're saying that there's no

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Speaker 3: ambiguity in the universe, like if you if you come

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Speaker 3: upon a crime scene, you can tell exactly what happened,

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Speaker 3: like a physicist could. If you sort of rewind the

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Speaker 3: universe and play the laws of physics backwards, you can

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Speaker 3: sort of reconstruct what happens every time precisely.

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Speaker 1: And it's really weird that this comes up in quantum

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Speaker 1: mechanics because you might think, yeah, quantum mechanics is not

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Speaker 1: something that's going to give you certainty that tells you

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Speaker 1: you can know everything about the universe, right, because quantum

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Speaker 1: mechanics is something that feels like it has a lot

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Speaker 1: of built in uncertainty. Yeah, And so what quantum mechanics

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Speaker 1: tells you is you can always know the wave function.

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Speaker 1: That's the thing that tells you where the particles are

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Speaker 1: likely to be, not that you could actually know where

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Speaker 1: the particles are. In the same way, you can backtrack

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Speaker 1: the wave function. You can say if the particles have

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Speaker 1: a certain wave function that says that they're more likely

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Speaker 1: to be on the left side of the table. Now

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Speaker 1: you can backtrack that and tell where they were likely

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Speaker 1: to be in the past, not where they actually were.

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Speaker 1: It's all about the wave function. It's all about this

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Speaker 1: evolving probabilities.

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Speaker 3: The way, so looking back into the past is also

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Speaker 3: there's also probabilities or do you know for sure where

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Speaker 3: the party Like like if I see an electron and

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Speaker 3: I measure, you know where it is and where it's

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Speaker 3: going to the best degree that I can. Can I

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Speaker 3: tell you where it was before and how fast it

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Speaker 3: was going.

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Speaker 1: No, you can only know the probabilities. You can't collapse

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Speaker 1: the wave function into the past because that would have

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Speaker 1: changed where it is today.

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Speaker 3: I see.

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Speaker 1: But if you know the wave function today, right, then

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Speaker 1: you can backtrack it into the past and you can

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Speaker 1: propagate it into the future.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I see.

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Speaker 1: The idea is that if you look at any configuration

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Speaker 1: of matter, you should be able to tell where it

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Speaker 1: came from. It's the core idea that you have to understand.

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Speaker 3: I see. So when you talk about information, you don't

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Speaker 3: mean like where things are and where they're going, but

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Speaker 3: you also kind of include these quantum probabilities as information, Like,

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Speaker 3: that's also information to a physicist.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's the actual quantum information, because we don't know

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Speaker 1: where the particles are. We really just know these probabilities.

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Speaker 1: And so like when we talk about like quantum teleportation

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Speaker 1: copying things, we're talking about copying not where the particles

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Speaker 1: actually are, but their probabilities, because that's really what the

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Speaker 1: quantum information is.

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Speaker 3: It kind of feels a little unsatisfying as a non

401
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Speaker 3: physicist because I feel like you're telling me that information

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Speaker 3: includes not knowing kind of in a way, you know

403
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Speaker 3: what I mean, Like information includes also non information.

404
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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, what's the most information that you can have

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Speaker 1: about the universe is information about the probabilities, and that

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Speaker 1: information cannot be destroyed. Like we don't know where the

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Speaker 1: electron is. It's not like there's a fact there that's

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Speaker 1: not accessible to us. It just isn't determined. But the

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Speaker 1: wave function is the thing that tells you that it's

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Speaker 1: more probable to find it on the left side or

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Speaker 1: the right side. That is totally determined. And that's the

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Speaker 1: level of quantum information we can have.

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Speaker 3: That's the most information that the universe allows you to

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Speaker 3: have almost right, Like you know, you can know the

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Speaker 3: position and the velocity of a particle to a perfect

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Speaker 3: degree because of the certain the principle, because and that's

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Speaker 3: just the role at the universe. The universe is like, Nope,

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Speaker 3: you can't know everything all of the time everywhere.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And that's why quantum information cannot be destroyed

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Speaker 1: because the probabilities cannot be destroyed. Like if an electron

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Speaker 1: is somewhere in your box now, then it is somewhere

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Speaker 1: in your box in the future, you're like, add up

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Speaker 1: all the probabilities in the future, they still have to

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Speaker 1: add up to one. And that's why if you run

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Speaker 1: the clock backwards, you should still get probabilities adding up

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Speaker 1: to one in the past. And if you run it

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Speaker 1: back even further, you should still get probabilities added up

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Speaker 1: to one. Because information is not destroyed can't just disappear.

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Speaker 1: Because your particles don't just disappear. You don't know where

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Speaker 1: they are. But the probabilities can't disappear. The probabilities can

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Speaker 1: slosh around, but they can't just go away. And so

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Speaker 1: that's why we're so fascinated about what happens inside a

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Speaker 1: black hole, because we're wondering, like, does the information inside

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Speaker 1: a black hole? Does it get deleted or is it

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Speaker 1: still stored in there? Like it's a black hole that

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Speaker 1: has a banana versus an apple, has something different inside

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Speaker 1: it that tells you that one has a banana, one

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Speaker 1: has an app apple or are they actually deleting stuff?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Interesting, interesting, Yeah, I get. The question is if

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Speaker 3: I throw a banana at one black hole and I

441
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 3: throw the equivalent apple at a copy of that black hole,

442
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 3: are the two black holes different at the end or

443
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 3: are they basically the same kind of the question.

444
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,320
Speaker 1: Exactly, And quantum mechanics says they have to be different,

445
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 1: because if they're not different, then you've destroyed the information

446
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 1: about which one got the banana and which one got

447
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,119
Speaker 1: the apple and ac corner to quantum mechanics, and this

448
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 1: is a very deep, very bedrock principle. Information cannot be destroyed.

449
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 1: Like you go to a particle theorist and you say,

450
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 1: what if I prove that quantum mechanics doesn't preserve information,

451
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,400
Speaker 1: that you can delete information from the universe, then basically

452
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 1: they just throw all their books away and we have

453
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 1: to start everything from scratch. Oh man, man, it's that

454
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:47,639
Speaker 1: deeply ingrained into physics.

455
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 3: Woa. I guess it's like comparing apple black holes to

456
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 3: banana black holes. All right, I'm starting to be a

457
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,680
Speaker 3: little bit like a dog here and not fully able

458
00:21:57,680 --> 00:21:59,919
Speaker 3: to grasp all of this stuff. But that's kind of

459
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 3: the nature of quantum mechanics. So let's get into whether

460
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 3: or not black holes can destroy this quantum information, and

461
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,400
Speaker 3: if they can, then how do we explain it? But first,

462
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 3: let's take a quick break.

463
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,800
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Speaker 3: All right, we're talking about whether black holes can destroy

513
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 3: quantum information. And so, Danny, you were telling me that

514
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 3: quantum information includes like the probability of all the particles

515
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 3: in the universe, or at least a bunch of particles

516
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 3: that you're looking at, and you're telling you that quantum

517
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 3: mechanics says it, you can't destroy this information, like you

518
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 3: can't just forget about it, like it's always kind of

519
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 3: encoded in how the particles are arranged or what they're doing.

520
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: That's right. It's sort of like the central premise of

521
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,640
Speaker 1: that TV show Devs, where they try to reconstruct details

522
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: about what happened two thousand years ago by gathering really

523
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 1: fine data about the molecules in the air and the

524
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: earth and just backtracking it two thousand years. The idea

525
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 1: is that the evidence for the past is still with

526
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: us here in the present, and that if you had

527
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: incredible computing power and enough data, you could reconstruct any event.

528
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: It's like the perfect crime novel.

529
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 3: Wow, and so yeah. Like, can you look at a

530
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 3: banana and tell what the plant the gruid looked like?

531
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: That's right. The idea is that no two bananas are identical,

532
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: but somewhere in that banana there's a clue about where

533
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: it came from and what it was like and whether

534
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: it got sun on a certain day. All that information

535
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: is somehow encoded in the banana.

536
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 3: They are making me feel guilty about eating a banana.

537
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 3: You're like, you're destroying a perfect, unique gem in the universe.

538
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: It's not destroy it just becomes part of who you are. Right.

539
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: If I took you apart, I could figure out exactly

540
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 1: how many bananas you had last week and what happened

541
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 1: to them, and the stars that birth the potassium that's

542
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 1: in that banana, Like, all that history is encoded in

543
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: that banana and then in you well.

544
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 3: And also when I flushed down the toilet, technically you

545
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 3: would have to go down the toilet. That's a whole

546
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 3: different maybe podcast episode.

547
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: That's a different kind of black hole. We're not going

548
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 1: to dive into today.

549
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 3: So let's get into now. Quantum mechanics says that you

550
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 3: can destroy quantum information. And so what happens when you

551
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 3: throw it into a black hole? Like, does it get

552
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 3: destroyed or does it stay around inside of the black hole?

553
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 3: That's the big question.

554
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so on the surface you imagine, well, black

555
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 1: holes suck in information. Right, you put something into a

556
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: black hole, it can never leave, so therefore its information

557
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: is stuck inside the black hole. That doesn't mean necessarily

558
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: that it's destroyed, right, Like you put a banana inside

559
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 1: a black hole. It could still be in there. The

560
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,199
Speaker 1: particles that made it up could be like squished and whatever,

561
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: but they just got quantum mechanics sified into a new arrangement.

562
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 1: And just like when you ate the banana or when

563
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: it grew, its information could still be preserved but be

564
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: stuck inside the black hole.

565
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 3: Kind of like a neutron star kind of breaks everything

566
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 3: down to the quark level, but all the courts are

567
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 3: still there, bunched together.

568
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, precisely. And if the information is still in there.

569
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: It's stuck inside the black hole. Right, nothing can ever

570
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: leave the black hole. But also you can't get any

571
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: information from the outside about what's in the black hole.

572
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 1: The only things you can know about a black hole

573
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: are its mass, whether it's spinning, and whether it has

574
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: electric charge. There's this crazy theorem in physics called the

575
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: no hair theorem that says that's all you can know

576
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: about a black hole.

577
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 3: You mean, like the overall charge of it, Like a

578
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 3: black hole can have a charge to it.

579
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you have a black hole with no charge,

580
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 1: it's neutral, and you throw an electron into it, then

581
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 1: it has a charge, and you can measure that charge.

582
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: You can know whether there are charged particles inside a

583
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:06,360
Speaker 1: black hole.

584
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 3: I guess you can measure how much it pulls proton

585
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 3: through or something like that.

586
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: Just like you can measure its mass. You throw a

587
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: banana into a black hole, it got heavier. You should

588
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: be able to measure its mass by measuring the gravitational

589
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: field around a black hole, and also measure whether it's spinning.

590
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: But that's the extent in the information you can have.

591
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 3: Right, you can't tell what's inside.

592
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 1: You can't tell the detailed history of the banana from

593
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: the outside, so you can never get that information back out, right.

594
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: So that's step number one. Is the information, if it

595
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: still exists, is inside the black hole and can never leave, right.

596
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 3: But that's not the same as his storying. It is

597
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 3: just kind of storing it. It's like inside somewhere I

598
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 3: can never reach.

599
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: That's right. And if black holes lift forever, this wouldn't

600
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: really be an issue. Would be a question of, like, well,

601
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 1: what happens inside the black hole? It's fascinating, but we

602
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: believe that probably the information is just in there, sort

603
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: of cut off from us forever, but still existent.

604
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 3: It's still having its own little happy life inside of

605
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 3: the black.

606
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: Hole, that's right. The banana party. That's where bananas go

607
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: so that you don't eat them.

608
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 10: Right.

609
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: It's the only safe space in the universe.

610
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 3: They don't have to worry about turning black because everything

611
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 3: is black inside of a black hole.

612
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: That's right. But then Stephen Hawking came along and he

613
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: showed us that black holes actually they.

614
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 3: Can disappear, right, Yes, you can make a black hole disappear.

615
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 3: It can evaporate.

616
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, black holes they evaporate. They give off very small

617
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: amounts of radiation, little particles here there. For very big

618
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: black holes, this happens extremely slowly. But as black holes

619
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: get smaller, they evaporate more quickly, and then they can

620
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: actually disappear. They can poof out of existence as they

621
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: give away their last little bit of energy.

622
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 3: Even like giant black holes will eventually disappear. Like once

623
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 3: all black holes suck everything in the universe, eventually they

624
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 3: will evaporate.

625
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: Right, that's right. A black hole, if you do not feed,

626
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: it will give off hawking radiation and get smaller. Right,

627
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: It gives off its energy, and that energy from its mass,

628
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: and so therefore it gets smaller, and the smaller it gets,

629
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: the more it radiates. So giant, massive black holes, they

630
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: might have lifetimes of trillions of years, but yes, eventually

631
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: they will radiate away all of their mass in terms

632
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: of this hawking radiation and disappear.

633
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 3: Right, And so then the question is what happened to

634
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:21,719
Speaker 3: the information you put into it?

635
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: That's right, what happened to the information inside the black hole?

636
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: Like you put this banana inside the black hole, you

637
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: trust the black hole is going to keep your banana

638
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 1: information safe. But then you come back a billion years

639
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: later and the black hole's gone and you're like, what

640
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: what happened to my You deleted my banana from the universe.

641
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: You know you can't do that. Quantum mechanics says that's impossible.

642
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: So then the question is what happened to the information?

643
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: And you might be tempted to think, oh, well, maybe

644
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: it's somehow stored in that hawking radiation, right, because the

645
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: hawking radiation came out of the black hole. But hawking

646
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: radiation is very special. It comes from the temperature of

647
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: the black hole. It comes from treating a black hole

648
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: like everything else in the unit, versus a thing that

649
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: has a non zero temperature which glows. And what's very

650
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: important to understand is that the hawking radiation depends only

651
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: on the mass of the black hole. Like how much

652
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: hawking radiation you get and which particles you get are

653
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: determined by the mass of the black hole and literally

654
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: zero else. So none of the information that's inside the

655
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: black hole can possibly leak out in hawking radiation.

656
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 3: Well, I guess it's kind of like if you have

657
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 3: a glass of water, if you leave it out, it's

658
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 3: going to evaporate, But you can sort of trace what

659
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 3: happened to the water. You can trace the vapor of

660
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 3: molecules as it leaves the glass of water. Like that's okay,

661
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 3: that's preserving the information.

662
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: That's right.

663
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 3: But a black hole doesn't evaporate by having the stuff

664
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 3: inside of it leak out. It evaporates by almost like

665
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 3: having the stuff at the surface destroy itself kind of,

666
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 3: that's right.

667
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: And remember the no hair theorem tells us that you

668
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: can't get any information out of a black hole. That

669
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: none of the configuration of particles inside a black hole,

670
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: or the swhirling or non swirling, or the singularity or

671
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: non singularity can affect what's produced on the outside of

672
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: the black hole. So the hawking radiation cannot have any

673
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: information about what's going on inside the black hole. It's

674
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: not like that water vapor example. It's a good contrast

675
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: because it doesn't tell you anything about what happened inside

676
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: the black hole. It's this amazing, sort of mysterious way

677
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: to delete a black hole without knowing anything about what's

678
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: inside of it.

679
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 3: Right, Because the reason is not because of the theorem.

680
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 3: The theorem is sort of because of what's happening in

681
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 3: the physics of it, right, And it's.

682
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, the theorem describes the physics of.

683
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 3: It right right, And what's happening is that, like at

684
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 3: the surface of a black hole, you get this pair

685
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 3: of particle and antiparticles kind of appearing, and one of

686
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 3: them goes into the black hole, the other one goes

687
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 3: out of the black hole, and that's kind of how

688
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 3: it evaporates, happening at the surface of it. And it's

689
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 3: not happening because of anything that's inside of the black.

690
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: Hole exactly, and it comes just from the mass the

691
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: black hole. As you say, virtual particles like positron anti

692
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: positron pairs are created near the black hole's edge where

693
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: there's a lot of gravitational energy, and then one of

694
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: them is given a boost from that gravitational energy while

695
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: the other one maybe get sucked in. And because it's

696
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: given a boost from that gravitational energy, that energy comes

697
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: from the mass of the black hole. So the black

698
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: hole itself has decreased a tiny little bit in mass,

699
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: and so it's stealing some of the energy from the

700
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: black hole without apparently taking any information from it. And

701
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: so that's the weird thing is that like you put

702
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: information in a black hole, you can never get it out,

703
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: but then the black hole can disappear so where did

704
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: the information go?

705
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 3: Really, there's no information in that fucking radiation. I mean, like,

706
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 3: wouldn't it like where it happens where there's these particles

707
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 3: in antiparticles form and where the one of them goes

708
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 3: right and the other one goes left. Wouldn't that sort

709
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 3: of depend on exactly what's going on inside of the

710
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 3: black hole?

711
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: Well, the where the particles are created is just quantum

712
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: randomness around the black hole, so that happens totally randomly,

713
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: not depending on what's inside the black hole. And then

714
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: they're boosted from the gravitational field, which is the mass

715
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: of the black hole. So you can know the mass

716
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: of the black hole, and that's what determines how these

717
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 1: particles get boosted and whether they go in the right direction,

718
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 1: et cetera. But that doesn't contain all the information. Like

719
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: if you threw an apple or an equivalently masked banana

720
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,240
Speaker 1: into a black hole, that would give you black holes

721
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: the same mass, so they would affect talking radiation in

722
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,439
Speaker 1: exactly the same way. So the fact that one used

723
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: to be an apple and one used to be a

724
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: banana is now irrelevant, which means quantum information has been deleted.

725
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 3: Oh Man all right, which is kind of bad used

726
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 3: for quantum physics, because you're telling me that this idea

727
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 3: that you can't destroy information is fundamental to quantum mechanics.

728
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 3: Maybe I really quickly, can you tell me why it's

729
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 3: so fundamental?

730
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: I mean, remember what we talked about earlier. The reason

731
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: you can't destroy information in quantum mechanics is because particles

732
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: should always exist somewhere. I mean, if you have a

733
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: particle now, is it exists somewhere in the future, it's

734
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: quantum information cannot be destroyed, like you don't know exactly

735
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 1: where it is, but you know what its probability distribution

736
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 1: looks like. And it should have a probability distribution in

737
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: the future also, and so that can change as the

738
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: universe moves forward. But the information about should not be

739
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: deleted anywhere.

740
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 3: Right, Well, I guess my question is, you know why not?

741
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 3: Like why would do quantum mechanics break down if I

742
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 3: just suddenly took some particles and deleted their quantum information?

743
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 3: Like why would the universe complain or would the universe

744
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 3: care if I destroyed that information?

745
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 1: All right? Well, mathematically we look at the equations of

746
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: describable wave functions. We have a wave function that tells

747
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 1: us where particles are likely to be, and that moves

748
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: forward in time. There's an equation that describes how that happens.

749
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: It's called the Schrodinger equation. And the Shrodinger equation says

750
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: you can move information from here to there, but it's unitary,

751
00:35:55,280 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: doesn't ever destroy information. And if information is destroyed, that

752
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: means that wave functions can disappear. And that just doesn't

753
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: happen in the shortenedir equation, and so we would have

754
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: to totally rethink the way quantum mechanics works if that

755
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 1: was to happen. It's like a bedrock assumption that we've

756
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: built into quantum mechanics.

757
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 3: I see, it's like I guess in quantum mechanics and

758
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 3: wave functions, you know, these functions don't just exist in

759
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 3: the present and in the past. They're all sort of

760
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 3: tied together mathematically to where they're going to be in

761
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 3: the future. That's right, So like if you destroy it

762
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 3: in the future, then you're really destroying it through all history.

763
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 3: You don't have a term for that in the equation.

764
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the equations work the same way forwards and

765
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 1: backwards in time. And so if the wave function is

766
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,720
Speaker 1: ever destroyed, that means that you couldn't go from a

767
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 1: non existent wave function backwards in time to the wave

768
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: function you have now. So there's sort of this time

769
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: invariance built into quantum mechanics. You can run the clock forwards,

770
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: you can run the clock backwards. You should be able

771
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: to move backwards and forwards at all points. But if

772
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: the information is ever deleted, that means you can't move

773
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 1: backwards and forwards at all points. And the shrunning are equation.

774
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 1: The basic assumptions on which it's built are totally wrong,

775
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: and quantum mechanics doesn't work, and we'd have to come

776
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,240
Speaker 1: up with a new theory. It's not like the universe

777
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 1: would puff out of existence, right. This is all human

778
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: ideas about how the universe might work. This is a

779
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: basic assumption we've built into quantum mechanics that we're pretty

780
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: sure is right. But black holes are telling us that

781
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: they're doing something that we thought was impossible.

782
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 3: Oh man, there's such trouble makers, all right, So we

783
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 3: have a big unknown here. How can both things be true?

784
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 3: How could information never be destroyed according to quantum mechanics

785
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,240
Speaker 3: and how can information be destroyed according to black holes

786
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 3: and hawking radiation. So let's get into what could possibly

787
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 3: explain this contradiction. But first, let's take a quick break.

788
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

789
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,400
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790
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite.

791
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are. US dairy

792
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,480
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793
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working

794
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Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

795
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

796
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,400
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797
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,800
Speaker 1: The same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes the barn,

798
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: and irrigates the crops. How is US dairy tackling greenhouse gases?

799
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn the methane from

800
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,080
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801
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 1: electric cars. So the next time you grab a slice

802
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know that

803
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: dairy farmers and processors around the country are using the

804
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 1: latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense dairy

805
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806
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807
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Speaker 3: All right, Daniel, Can information be destroyed inside of a

830
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 3: black hole?

831
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 6: So?

832
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 3: Quantum mechanics says no, but kind of a black hole

833
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 3: say yes? So what's going on? Is quantum mechanics wrong?

834
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 3: Or do black holes just kind of destroy our conception

835
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:44,879
Speaker 3: of how the universe works?

836
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: This is a big puzzle in physics for a long time,

837
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: and such a big puzzle that like big folks on

838
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,240
Speaker 1: both sides, like great brains on both sides of the argument,

839
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 1: had like public debates about it and even made bets

840
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 1: about the resolution of this.

841
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, there's a famous bed by between Hawking and

842
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 3: Kip Thorn and John Prescolle.

843
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: Right, that's right. John prescoll believed that somehow the information

844
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: was sneaking out of the black hole back into the universe,

845
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: that it was leaking out essentially, whereas Stephen Hawking and

846
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 1: Kip Thorn they thought, no, the information can't ever leave

847
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: the black hole, and therefore it must be lost from

848
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: the universe and quantum mechanics is wrong. So they made

849
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: a very public sort of bet about this.

850
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 3: All right, so they made this bed and they was

851
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 3: one of improvem right.

852
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: Well, they did come to what they think is a

853
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 1: resolution to this, and so Hawking and Thorn actually capitulated

854
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: on the bet in public and said, all right, prescolle,

855
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 1: we think you're right. We think that the information somehow

856
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: leaks out of the black hole.

857
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 3: So wait, physicists think that black holes don't destroy information.

858
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: That's right. So the idea now is probably black holes

859
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,240
Speaker 1: don't destroy information. I mean, the general categories of solutions

860
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: are one. Maybe quantum mechanics is just wrong and we

861
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: have to toss it all out and rethink everything about

862
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 1: our idea of the universe at the smallest scales, like

863
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 1: that's an option, and hey, that wouldn't be so bad.

864
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,879
Speaker 1: It's not like everything unravels and we all go living

865
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:08,879
Speaker 1: in caves or something.

866
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 3: Just a bunch of physicist careers on revel.

867
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,359
Speaker 1: No, those are the best moments for physicist careers because like, wow,

868
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: that cracks open something deep that we thought was true.

869
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: Those are the revolutions in physics we live for. That's

870
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,959
Speaker 1: why we're here to figure out what in the firm

871
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: and turns out to be wrong, because those are the

872
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: times when you can get a new glimpse onto a

873
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 1: new insight into the universe. I mean, wow, that would

874
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: be amazing.

875
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 3: Right, So that's one possibility. Maybe quantum mechanics is wrong.

876
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 3: What are other possibilities black holes are wrong?

877
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,399
Speaker 1: Another one is that like black holes, you can think

878
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,959
Speaker 1: of them as storing this information, but that they're also

879
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,240
Speaker 1: like connected to another universe. We've talked about how maybe

880
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 1: black holes are like doors to wormholes that are connected

881
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: on the other side to other places in the universe.

882
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: They could also be connected to like separate, distinct universe.

883
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 1: Is that we don't otherwise have access to that. True,

884
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: it's a possibility, I mean where it's like a what

885
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 1: if on top of a what if. But the idea

886
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,760
Speaker 1: is that therefore the information could be in that universe,

887
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 1: Like maybe the banana got sucked into the black hole

888
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 1: and then slurped along through the wormhole and it's living

889
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: off it's banana like days in that other universe. Now,

890
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: even when our black hole.

891
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 3: Disappears, I see like somehow there's a white hole on

892
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 3: the other side that's spewing out bananas.

893
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 1: That's right, a banana hole. I think it's what the

894
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: people in that universe would call it, like, I.

895
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 3: Think they call it the magic banana fountain. They're like

896
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 3: whole cult surrounding it about how generous this banana fountain is.

897
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 1: You're like a god in that universe. You're like the

898
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: giver of bananas in.

899
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 3: That universe from a legend, from a legend in another universe.

900
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 1: They're like, but please stop throwing bananas in there with

901
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,959
Speaker 1: a bite taking out already. I mean, please, that's rude.

902
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: So that's one idea.

903
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 3: Yes, that it's information is not disappearing, it's just going

904
00:43:58,600 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 3: somewhere else.

905
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's hard to really understand because then you

906
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: can't still really do quantum mechanics, Like the information is

907
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: effectively lost to us, and so then we can't do

908
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics of our universe. So it's not really as sis.

909
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 3: If it's lost to us, it's a bummer.

910
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: It's a bummer because you know, is our wave function

911
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: entangled with their wave function if they're in another universe

912
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 1: then no, And so really quantum mechanics says you can't

913
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: lose any information from your wave function. So if you

914
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: lose it to a totally incoherent wave function, it's effectively

915
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: lost anyway. So quantum mechanics says no to that. Very clever,

916
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,800
Speaker 1: I think, awesome idea, which would be a great basis

917
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: for science fiction.

918
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 3: Interesting like we're entangled with other universe.

919
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we wouldn't actually be entangled, right, That's the

920
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,919
Speaker 1: problem is that our wave function isn't connected to theirs

921
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:47,240
Speaker 1: because it goes through the wormhole.

922
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 3: Oh, I see, all right, So then what's the third possibility.

923
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: The third possibility is that maybe somehow that information is

924
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,879
Speaker 1: actually imprinted on the Hawking radiation. So go back, that's

925
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: what I saying.

926
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 3: Yes, he shot me down, but now it seems like

927
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 3: Stephen Hawking agrees with me.

928
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 1: That's right. This is known as the Hawking thorn cham

929
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: theory of the universe. Shouldn't be No, you're right, and

930
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: you know our understanding before this was that it's impossible

931
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 1: for that information to be in the Hawking radiation for

932
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: the very reasonable arguments that I gave you five minutes ago,

933
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 1: which I will now under my life.

934
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 3: It made me feel bad, Daniel, now right now, pick

935
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 3: me back up.

936
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, So here's why your idea was a

937
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: good one. And you know, whenever you have an apparent contradiction,

938
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: you have a string of logical arguments that leads you

939
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 1: to something nonsensical. You have to go back and read examine, like,

940
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 1: well what about this one? Is this one? Are we

941
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: really sure about this? And try to find a hole

942
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: in it. And so the idea is that maybe somehow

943
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: the information about the banana you threw in is imprinted

944
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: on the Hawking radiation. Well, how could that happen because

945
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 1: once it goes inside the black hole, the only information

946
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 1: we can get about it is how much mass it has,

947
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 1: which is entially destroying the banana noness of the information.

948
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 1: So the idea is maybe it never really goes inside

949
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: the black hole, Like maybe a banana when you throw

950
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: it into a black hole, spends eternity sort of on

951
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 1: the surface of the black hole. And this is actually

952
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: what happens when you throw something into a black hole.

953
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: You never actually see it go in because remember, when

954
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: near a black hole, there's incredible gravity and that slows

955
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: down time. Right, Like you threw a clock into a

956
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: black hole and you watched it with a telescope pleaded

957
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 1: from very far away, you would see that clock's ticks

958
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,839
Speaker 1: slow down because the presence of mass slows down time.

959
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, So to the banana you're seeing, the banana

960
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:47,919
Speaker 3: gets frozen at the surface kind of yeah.

961
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: As it gets closer and closer to this event horizon,

962
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 1: time slows down more and more, to the point where

963
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 1: it slows down essentially infinitely. And you can watch this

964
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: banana for the whole time, the lifetime in the universe.

965
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: You will never see it cross the event horizon.

966
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 3: Oh huh. It's not like it goes in and then

967
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 3: the particles, the photons can come out. It's like it

968
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 3: never goes in.

969
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: Kind of yeah. From our point of view, From our perspective,

970
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 1: you never see anything actually go into a black hole. Now,

971
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 1: it gets closer and closer, and it gets redder and

972
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,399
Speaker 1: redder because the light from that banana, which can still

973
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 1: get to you, because the banana is not actually in

974
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,240
Speaker 1: the black hole, it gets stretched also by the gravity

975
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: and gets redder and redder, longer and longer wavelengths. So

976
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,359
Speaker 1: what happens if you have trillions of years to hang

977
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: out and watch, is the banana falls in more and

978
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: more slowly, gets darker and darker and eventually goes out

979
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: past the visible spectrum. You can't see it, and you

980
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 1: have to use your infrared telescope to watch your very

981
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 1: gently glowing banana.

982
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:47,879
Speaker 6: Right.

983
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 3: But I guess though I thought time became a singularity

984
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 3: only only at the center of the black hole. You're

985
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 3: saying that time actually stops at the edge of it.

986
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, at the edge of the black hole, time slows

987
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: down essentially infinitely, like, and that's for you. You're from

988
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: the outside point of view, you're watching the banana go in.

989
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 1: That's not the same thing as the banana experiences. Banana

990
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 1: can fall into a black hole, and it can totally

991
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: experience going past the event horizon, right, because time always

992
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 1: goes at one second per second for the person experiencing it,

993
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 1: we have a different story about what happens to the

994
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 1: banana watching from the outside. So for us, the banana

995
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 1: never actually goes into the black hole for us.

996
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 3: Interesting for us. Wait, so it gets frozen at the

997
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,240
Speaker 3: surface for ever.

998
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: Yes, but it gets stretched out, right, It's not like

999
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: just happy you can't go back and pick up your banana.

1000
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: It gets stretched out and reddened and smeared over the

1001
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: surface of the black hole. And essentially it distorts the

1002
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 1: event horizon. It like changes the shape of the event

1003
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: horizon in some way. And the idea is that maybe

1004
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 1: the banana changes the shape of the event horizon differently

1005
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:00,240
Speaker 1: than an apple wood, or differently than another.

1006
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 3: In a way that we can see, or in a

1007
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 3: way that we will never see.

1008
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: In a way that imprinciple preserves the quantum information of

1009
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: that banana and can influence the hawking radiation produced at

1010
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: that point instead of the event horizon being a perfectly

1011
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 1: smooth sphere and now has little quantum wiggles in it,

1012
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: and those quantum wiggles tell you about what's been thrown

1013
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: into the black.

1014
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 3: Hole, meaning that you could measure the hawking radiation and

1015
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 3: reconstruct whether you threw a banana or an apple in.

1016
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: Exactly that the black hole you threw banana in would

1017
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 1: give you different hawking radiation than the banana you threw

1018
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: an apple into. Now it's encoded somehow, and now in

1019
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: the surface of this black hole, which contains all the

1020
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 1: information but everything that's been thrown into the black hole,

1021
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 1: So you're not breaking general relativity because you're not getting

1022
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: information about what's inside the black hole. Because in principle.

1023
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: All this is now encoded on the surface of the

1024
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: black hole.

1025
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 3: Right, But the quarts in the banana do disappear.

1026
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 1: You don't see them. You don't see them going into

1027
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 1: the black hole. Like they're going to survive crazy experiences

1028
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: being near a black hole and get torn apart and

1029
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 1: smashing the other stuff. So who knows what's gonna happen,

1030
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: But their quantum information should still be there. Everything that

1031
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 1: happened to them is describable by quantum mechanics. And just

1032
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 1: like being eaten or being turned into a banana smoothie,

1033
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 1: their history is still carried with them.

1034
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 3: And that's okay with quantum mechanics. Like as long as

1035
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 3: the quantum history information and information is somehow carried on,

1036
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 3: even if it's like passed between the banana quark, it

1037
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 3: passes on that information to the hawking radiation, that's still okay.

1038
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: That's right. Did you just create a new kind of quark,

1039
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,399
Speaker 1: the banana cork. We got upcork charmquirk, banana cork.

1040
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 3: I thought they already existed.

1041
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: No, but you're exactly right. Somehow the information about that

1042
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 1: quark that was inside your banana is encoded on the

1043
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: surface of the black hole and influences the hawking radiation

1044
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 1: that's produced. And therefore, if you like gathered all the

1045
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 1: hawking radiation that came out of a black hole, you

1046
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:02,919
Speaker 1: could tell exactly what had gone into the black hole

1047
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 1: in the whole lifetime of the black hole.

1048
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 3: And this is weird because this is what they call

1049
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 3: like the holographic principle, meaning like you know, you can describe,

1050
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 3: like if the whole universe falls into a black hole,

1051
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 3: you could at some point technically everything would be described

1052
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 3: on the surface of the black hole, right, which is

1053
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 3: like a two D surface, it's like a flat surface.

1054
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sort of mysterious to say you can describe

1055
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: everything that's happening in a three D space, like the

1056
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,800
Speaker 1: inside of a black hole, just by knowing information on

1057
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 1: a two D space, the surface of the black hole.

1058
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: So like, how can everything inside a three D space

1059
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 1: be described by the surface of that space. Well, that's

1060
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 1: what we call a hologram. A hologram is a two

1061
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: D image that's projected into a three D space, so

1062
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: it looks three D. The entire hologram is determined actually

1063
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,800
Speaker 1: by what's happening on the surface. So the ideas maybe

1064
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,320
Speaker 1: black holes the interiors of them are just holograms of

1065
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 1: their surfaces. Can build a sort of a theory of

1066
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 1: physics that works in three D, that's actually a theory

1067
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 1: of physics in two D on a surface.

1068
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 3: Like you don't need three dimensions, maybe you can describe

1069
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 3: everything on a surface exactly.

1070
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 1: And so the idea is like, well, maybe that's also

1071
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 1: true like for our universe, Like maybe our three D

1072
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: universe is just a projection, is a two D hologram

1073
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 1: of what's happening at the edge of our universe?

1074
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 3: Just blue my mind.

1075
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: We think we live in this three D world and

1076
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 1: we're all moving around three dimensions. But if you can

1077
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 1: imprint all the information of a three D world onto

1078
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 1: a two D surface, then it's possible that we actually

1079
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: live on the two D surface at the edge of

1080
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: the universe somewhere, and that what we experience is at

1081
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: three D world is really just a two D surface.

1082
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 3: Oh but okay, so I guess it's like if this

1083
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,760
Speaker 3: can happen on a black hole, then maybe it's happening everywhere.

1084
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:56,399
Speaker 3: And maybe if we don't really need three dimensions, maybe

1085
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 3: like we have a redundant dimension.

1086
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:01,800
Speaker 1: That's right, and and there was this incredible result in

1087
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 1: string theory which backed this up. This guy at the

1088
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: Institute for Advanced Science one Maldicenna, he came up with

1089
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 1: this theory that showed that string theory in three dimensions

1090
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 1: that we experienced it can actually be described by a

1091
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: quantum theory in two dimensions. So he showed how you

1092
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,760
Speaker 1: could reconstruct a theory of our universe in three dimensions

1093
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 1: only on a two dimensional surface. So it sort of

1094
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 1: showed mathematically that this might be possible.

1095
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 3: So what does that mean? That means that we're really

1096
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 3: living an illusion, like the three dimensions that we think

1097
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 3: we're living in are actually just an illusion.

1098
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:40,840
Speaker 1: Kind of It could be, right, Yeah, it certainly could be.

1099
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: It could be that we actually live in a two

1100
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 1: D space, like I mean, it doesn't make any difference

1101
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 1: like feeling like you live in three D and actually

1102
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:51,279
Speaker 1: living in three D, Like what's the difference? Nothing? But

1103
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 1: mathematically it might be that our three D universe can

1104
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,239
Speaker 1: be described as just a two D surface, which is

1105
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 1: sort of fascinating because you feel like this two too

1106
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 1: much information here, right, that everything that's happening to us

1107
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:06,760
Speaker 1: is somehow too much to squeeze down to two dimensions,

1108
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 1: but mathematically it can be equivalent. It could be that

1109
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 1: it's just that we don't have the full freedom of

1110
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: the three dimensions, that we're just a projection of two

1111
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 1: D space.

1112
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 3: But I guess maybe the way you explain it maybe

1113
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:20,720
Speaker 3: is that you also have time, and maybe like somehow

1114
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 3: time is also giving you that extra feeling of a

1115
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 3: three to third dimension.

1116
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,320
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, Well, here we're just talking about spatial dimensions,

1117
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 1: and so that two D space would also have time

1118
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 1: in it, so it's allowed to evolve that things can

1119
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: move on the two D surface and that changes what

1120
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: happens inside the three D space, but we don't know.

1121
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I guess that's what I mean. It's like,

1122
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:42,319
Speaker 3: because you have time, then you can maybe store more

1123
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,360
Speaker 3: things into the information than you might think.

1124
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: But you know, it's a big leap. Like we say,

1125
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 1: maybe information is stored on the surface of black holes,

1126
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:53,800
Speaker 1: which means that maybe you can determine their interior to

1127
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 1: maybe the whole universe is a halomram. Like there's a

1128
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 1: lot of big leaps there, But again they're also fascinating.

1129
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 1: They're like, you know, maybe trying to solve this mystery

1130
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 1: about what's happening inside a black hole tells us about

1131
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: what's possible for ideas we could have about the universe,

1132
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 1: and reveals to us sort of shocking new mathematical connections

1133
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: that show us that the richness of our universe might

1134
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 1: actually be representable in terms of a smaller set of dimensions.

1135
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, like maybe we're all living in a video game.

1136
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 3: Kind of just seems like we're in a three D world,

1137
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 3: but really we're just in this kind of reconstruction of

1138
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 3: a three D world.

1139
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 1: That's right. And if we are living in a video game,

1140
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:32,800
Speaker 1: I want to know what are the cheat codes?

1141
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 3: How do I reset? How do I get extra lives?

1142
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:39,240
Speaker 1: Exactly?

1143
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 3: All right, Well, it sounds like maybe black holes are

1144
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,800
Speaker 3: not destroying information. Maybe that seems to be kind of

1145
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 3: the current physics thinking is that maybe it is sort

1146
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:52,880
Speaker 3: of recorded on the surfaces of black holes.

1147
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:55,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, this stuff is pretty handwavy. It's

1148
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 1: not like people have really worked out the mathematical details

1149
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 1: of it. It's sort of like an idea for idea

1150
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 1: we might have. It's like a crack a way to

1151
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 1: explore it that might be able to reveal what's happening

1152
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 1: with black holes and information. It's not like a very

1153
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:11,320
Speaker 1: totally solid worked out idea.

1154
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 3: Oh I see, these are just kind of like directions

1155
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 3: in which that might explain these things exactly exactly, and

1156
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 3: we might be getting closer to knowing the answer, right,

1157
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 3: I mean, we just took a picture of a black hole.

1158
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:25,360
Speaker 3: Maybe in the future we might get closer to it

1159
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 3: and figure these things out. Or is this closed off

1160
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 3: to us forever.

1161
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 1: That's a great question. And you know, we could send

1162
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 1: somebody into a black hole and maybe they could learn

1163
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,840
Speaker 1: something about it. The problem is we'd never know the

1164
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 1: answer because they couldn't tell us.

1165
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:38,920
Speaker 3: We might as well send dogs in.

1166
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:42,720
Speaker 1: Well, we're going to get a letter from the cat.

1167
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 3: Our cats depending it.

1168
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 9: You know.

1169
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 3: Well, if you're a dog lovery, we can send cats too.

1170
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 1: We should just send robots, and let's just send robots. No,

1171
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 1: there's no society protecting the life.

1172
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 3: Of robots, right, that's right, the dog robots.

1173
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:58,800
Speaker 1: Dog robots there, that's a perfect compromise.

1174
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 3: All right. But again, it just tells you that there's

1175
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 3: a lot we don't know about the universe, and that

1176
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 3: even like our experience of it, this three dimensional experience

1177
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 3: of it, might be not real or not what we

1178
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 3: think it is.

1179
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:11,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that deep insights into the very nature of

1180
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 1: the universe can come from these little odds and ends,

1181
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 1: these things that all we thought we understood, and then

1182
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 1: there's a little detail that doesn't quite make sense, and

1183
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 1: when you tug on that thread, it could unravel literally

1184
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 1: everything we think we understand about the universe. This is

1185
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 1: how lots of great discoveries were made relativity, quantum mechanics,

1186
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: and hopefully future crazy bonkers discoveries that people will have

1187
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 1: a hard time accepting as the true nature of the universe.

1188
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 3: Until then, I guess I'll stick to a blender to

1189
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 3: make my fans.

1190
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 1: I think that's a good idea.

1191
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 3: All right, Well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for

1192
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 3: joining us, See you next time.

1193
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain

1194
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of Eye Heart Radio. For

1195
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1196
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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. When you

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Speaker 9: I've been trying to write a promo for our podcast,

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Speaker 9: Part Time Genius, but even though we've done over two

1219
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Speaker 9: hundred and.

1220
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:31,840
Speaker 8: Fifty episodes, we don't really talk about murders or cults.

1221
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Speaker 16: I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati of cheese.

1222
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Speaker 16: So I feel like that makes us pretty edgy. We

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Speaker 16: also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food?

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Speaker 16: And how do dollar stores make money? And then of

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Speaker 16: course can you game a dog show?

1226
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Speaker 3: So what you're saying is everyone should be listening.

1227
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Speaker 16: Listen to part Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or

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Speaker 16: wherever you get your podcasts.