1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from house 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com. Hello, Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Fair Dowdy, and we are 4 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: at an interesting times in the news because Pope Benedict 5 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: has resigned and he has been at sixteen and this 6 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: has made a lot of people have that magical question 7 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: of can popes do that? Has this happened before? Yeah, 8 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: the answers are yes and yes, well, and it's made 9 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: people look back at the past you in a way 10 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: that I'd say your average newspapers don't usually do. Right, 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: there have been a lot of interesting, you know, kind 12 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: of quickly put together news stories on No there have 13 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: been other popes that have resigned here they are, uh, 14 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: and they're usually very quick, sort of glossy versions because 15 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: they're trying to pack a quick sort of sound bite 16 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: into each one. But one of them, in particular, there 17 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: was also a Benedict and he is quite an interesting story. Uh. 18 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: You know, the Real Housewives have nothing on him. I 19 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: mean there's some serious depravity and drama at play to 20 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 1: wade through. And he was pope during what's considered a 21 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 1: really dark time of the papacy. Um, I think many 22 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: theologians and historians would be just as happy if they 23 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: didn't have to acknowledge that period. This period, it really 24 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: is not it has not nothing really to do with 25 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: religion at that point. It's all about politics and power. 26 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 1: There's really not much piety to be found. And we've 27 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: covered a few periods like that on the podcast, and 28 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: um oh you know the borgap Hope right, also not 29 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: a super great chapter, or the Senate of Corpses that 30 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: was a really bad time in the eight hundreds, and 31 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: they seem to produce some of the most interesting characters 32 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: and the most fascinating stories. But yes, clearly very dark 33 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: periods from time to time in papal history. Yeah, which 34 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: is I mean natural with any seat of power that 35 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: eventually people with less than ideal goals and interests are 36 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: going to want those seats of power. And so at 37 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: this time, uh, you know, simony was really rampant, and 38 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: most wealthy families like their whole goal was just to 39 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: secure a seat for one of their family members in 40 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: the hierarchy of the Catholic Church because it wasn't just 41 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: a powerful religious position, it's a powerful ruling position. Yeah. Uh, 42 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: and Benedict the ninth is the pope we're gonna talk 43 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: about today, and his resignation is sometimes cited as the first, 44 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: although in a fuzzy way. They're like, this is the 45 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: first we really have records of in terms of what happened. 46 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: There were some that are thought to have resigned prior 47 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: to that, but the records just aren't there. There's not 48 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: enough enough evidence, it's not enough writing has survived that 49 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: they can really pinpoint hard evidence on any of those. 50 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: So he kind of he Sometimes you'll see him referenced 51 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: in particularly like these new news articles that have popped 52 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: up because of the current pope's resignation. They'll say he 53 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: was the first to resign, but there's probably not the case. 54 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: This is a good, good guy to start the list with. 55 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: You got to really get in there with a bang. 56 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: But fortunately there is a lot of information, although information 57 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: that sometimes kind of controversial about dates and what exactly 58 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: went down. But there is a lot on Benedict the 59 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: Ninth personally, because he is so fascinating and revolting at 60 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: the same time. He's one of those and there's a 61 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: strong modern text on him. Reginald L. Pools text on 62 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: Benedict the ninth and also Gregory the six for the 63 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: British Academy in nine is considered basically the definitive source 64 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: on his life, right Yeah, and it's um available online. 65 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: You could even just google Reginald Pool and Benedict nine 66 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: and it'll probably come up there. Our PDFs available at 67 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: a few different places. And it's not long. It's about 68 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: fifty eight pages. It's kind of a two parter because 69 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: he ends up after he published his first big part 70 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: of it, or he completed it. There was another scholar 71 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: working on similar things and that caused him to kind 72 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: of revise some of his information based on new data. 73 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 1: But really Pool is what every newspaper writer that's trying 74 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: to dig up information goes to. And he was really 75 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 1: exhaustive in comparing different contemporary accounts that were going on 76 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: because different, you know, monks in different places were writing 77 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: this as an effort to keep the history well in 78 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: writing it with different motives to different motives. Different information, 79 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: I mean information had traveled to them often by word 80 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: of mouth, and that was colored by some of the 81 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: people carrying that information, whether the person that recounted it 82 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: in writing knew that or not, or was taking that 83 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: into account. We can't is now, so they're not all consistent. 84 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: But Pool, as I said, really went through all of them, 85 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: and he would even compare them to existing scientific logs 86 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: of the days, like in some they will um site 87 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: there was an earthquake that happened in the midst of 88 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: all of this, and if they get that date right, 89 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: he'll kind of give them a little more credence. But 90 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: if there are a couple that kind of use different events. 91 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: I think there was an eclipse at one point, and 92 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 1: there's one writer in particular that's a little sloppy with 93 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: the dates and kind of uses them to dramatic effect 94 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: and to say like, this is not a credible source. 95 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: This guy can't be trusted. You can trust you on 96 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: the crazy Yeah, almost exactly how he words it, just 97 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: slightly more stilted language. Uh. So he really did kind 98 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: of break it all down and analyze it. And according 99 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: to Pool, the Libre Pontificus, which may almost be called 100 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 1: The Lives of the Popes, is not at our disposal. 101 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: It ends abruptly in the last decade of the ninth century, 102 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: and is not resumed in a form deserving name of 103 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: an historical narrative until ten seventy three. So unfortunately, that's 104 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: right where Benedict was the dead zone where they're the 105 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 1: information was really not being recorded, and there have been 106 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: some theories that, um, some of that was expunged on purpose, 107 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: some of that has been destroyed purposely because it was 108 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: such a dark time. This is what exactly the kind 109 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: of stuff you would want to get rid of if 110 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 1: you did have the power to go back through that archive. Yes, 111 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: and as a consequence to you, even uh, some of 112 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: the there's not all that much information on some of 113 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: the things Benedict did while he held the position of pope. Now, 114 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: part of that is just like the power play of 115 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: you know, the next guys in line kind of want 116 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: to erase the work of a previous one. But most 117 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: of it really is kind of an embarrassment issue. They 118 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: want to let's forget some of those things that happened 119 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: because they're really not in the best interest of the church. Well, 120 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: part of the problem is that Benedict the Nine comes 121 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: to the papal throne at a remarkably young age. That's 122 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: probably the first shocking point in this story. He was 123 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: born the Aphilactus tusculum um and he was one of 124 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: the youngest popes. You'll see records saying that he was 125 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: only about eleven or twelve. That's according to a Benedictine chronicler, 126 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: when his father secured this post for him through bribery. 127 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: But that's fallen out of favor, and now historians generally 128 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,119 Speaker 1: agree that he was between eighteen and twenty years old 129 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: when he became pope for the very first time in 130 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: ten thirty two. Still remarkably young. Yeah, that's an incredible 131 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: young age. I mean, we hear about kings and other 132 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: monarchs that are given of course they inherited tiny but 133 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: usually they have someone to sort of stand in for them, 134 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: whereas this is definitely a case where they were like, nope, 135 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: this is your son. I look how I arranged this 136 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: for you. I got you elected. I talked to the 137 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: right people and did some favors for for a position. Normally, uh, 138 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: normally one through a lifetime of work and making connections 139 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: and a certain seriousness that you would project that you're 140 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: not going to have at eighteen, but as we established, 141 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: not really in this period of the papacy, unfortunately. So 142 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 1: he also had some family connections. This was not an 143 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: out of the Blue. His father managed to bribe his 144 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: son into the papal throne because the preceding two popes 145 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: where his uncle's. It was Benedict the eighth and Pope 146 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: John the nineteen. So they were keeping it in the family. 147 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: They were, and like you were just saying, too with 148 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: kings or emperors or what not, inheriting a position. It 149 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: was very much being treated as though being pope were 150 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: a position similar to to being king that could be 151 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 1: passed on through the family. Yeah. Um, And so Benedict 152 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: first takes what's called the Sea of Peter by some 153 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: you'll hear the papacy referred to. I'm sure Mr our 154 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 1: listeners know is as with various names, the chair of Peter, 155 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: the throat of Peter, uh, the sea, sometimes sometimes just 156 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: the papacy, sometimes just the chair. There are a lot 157 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: of different names for it that come up in different texts. Um. 158 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: But this first run at the papacy, and we'll get 159 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: back to why this is only the first one. For 160 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: Benedict was really debaucherous. I mean, there are some that 161 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: say that he really kind of went out of his 162 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: way to hit all of the seven deadly sins. He 163 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: There are various accounts, not so much like direct chronicling 164 00:09:55,679 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: of things he did, but accusations and kind of derogatory remarks. 165 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: Quotes really speak for themselves. Uh yeah, Ferdinande Gregor Gregor, 166 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: Gregor rovious, I'm so sorry. Who was a later scholar. 167 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: He was in the eighteen hundreds when he was writing this, 168 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: but based on his studies, he chose to describe Benedict 169 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: as a demon from Hell in the disguise of a priest. 170 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: It's pretty bad. The Catholic Encyclopedia called him quote a 171 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: disgrace to the chair of Peter uh and Bishop Benno 172 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: of Piacenza accused him of many viole adulteries and murders. 173 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: And then in Pope Victor the Third's Book on Dialogues 174 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: he was pope shortly after this period ten eighties six 175 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: to ten eight seven um, he referred to quote his 176 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: rates murders and other unspeakable acts. His life as a 177 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: pope was so vile, so foul, so execrable, that I 178 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: shudder to think of it. That's serious, juju, that's that's strong. 179 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: Where words all around, and there are a lot of 180 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: rumors about what kind of activities were going on to 181 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: produce quotes like this, to produce judgments like this. The 182 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: gentlest at the top of the list is that he 183 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: actively participated in simony, except except not too. I mean 184 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: we should we should make it clear too. That's about 185 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 1: as bad as it can get for a for a 186 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: pope to be selling off clerical positions, which is how 187 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: he got the position in the first place, in some ways, 188 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: you know, through bribery. It wasn't direct. But oh, we'll 189 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: get to the bigger chunk of simony later. If you've 190 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: listened to the Dante's Circle of Hell episode Dante Inferno 191 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: Dante's Inferno, there are quite a few folks in there 192 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: because of simony. So that's pretty serious. Um. Others are 193 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: just more shocking, m mainly that he was familiar with 194 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: many prostitutes across Italy. Yeah. Uh. He is also rumored 195 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: to have hosted frequent orgies and to have participated in bestiality. 196 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: And this one almost seems so extreme that you think 197 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: it has to be like the gossip columns of the day. 198 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: But he allegedly would curse God and toast the devil 199 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: at his meals. It does seem like that would be 200 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: pushing it even for the you know, the run up 201 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: of the other the other things he's rumored that makes 202 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: him such a sort of mustache twirling villain at that point. 203 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: But we don't know, because he clearly didn't seem terribly 204 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: interested in the religious role that he was supposed to 205 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: take his pope. That really wasn't his thing to be 206 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: religious leader. He just wanted the power, yeah, And ultimately 207 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: that offended people too much. It was it was too 208 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: wrong what he was doing. One or gy too many 209 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: pushed it over the edge, and toward the end of 210 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: ten four Roman townsman rose up against him and drove 211 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: him out of town. Um this left on the first 212 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: time this had happened. Now, there was a very brief 213 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 1: uprising in ten thirty six, but it really didn't have 214 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 1: much ground swell, and it was beaten down almost immediately. 215 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: I mean, they don't even most records don't even cite 216 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: that as as him leaving the papacy. He did leave Rome, 217 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: there's theoretically it was just too you know, for safety, 218 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: but he wasn't really removed from his seat at any point. 219 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: So the ten forty four rebellion was the real deal. 220 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: That for sure he was driven out of town and 221 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: a new pope was actually elected. John the Bishop of Sabina, 222 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: who became Sylvester the Third, was the new pope in 223 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: his place, although Sylvester is often referred to as an 224 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: anti pope because of course Benedict is still out there 225 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: um doing who knows what. But Sylvester only held the 226 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: title of pope for forty nine days and then was 227 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: deposed again Benedict was restored. It's a lot of back 228 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: and forth here, and sir, to shake up the confidence 229 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: people had in this most holy, very powerful office. Yeah, 230 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: and to further shake the ground if anyone had any 231 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: faith in Benedict as a pope. Uh. He didn't stick 232 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: around that second time. Very off, very long he um. 233 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: And there is some debate. A lot of times it 234 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: cited as a three week rain um. In pools analysis, 235 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: he ends up calling it one month and twenty one days, 236 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: and he bases that on some of the the rules 237 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: that happened at the time about when a pope could 238 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: actually be um, you know, through official ceremony seated. Uh So, 239 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: I think he calculated it one month and twenty one days, 240 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: but it's entirely possible that it was three weeks in 241 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: when he made the proclamation that he was out of 242 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: there again. Um, because the second time around is even 243 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: more extraordinary than just being to post. Yeah. So remember that, 244 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: simhy we talked about all ago. Uh, he sold the 245 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: seat of pope. You can't get more brazen than that. 246 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: It is very brazen. It's not to say it's right, 247 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: but it's one thing to like take a bribe under 248 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: the table for another seat, but to just say I 249 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: would like a large time of money so you can 250 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: be pope please. However, there is maybe not such a 251 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: level of yuckiness about this one. Well, it depends on 252 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: how you look at it. So he was exactly he 253 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: was selling it to his godfather again keeping things through 254 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: too close. Um, his his godfather, who ultimately became Gregory 255 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: the Six. But Gregory the Six is looked at from 256 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: a few different perspectives, and some suggest that he wasn't 257 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: doing this just because he wanted the power. He wanted 258 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: to be pope and while conveniently my godson is going 259 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: to be willing to sell it to me. Um. Some 260 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: suggest that he was doing this in as a noble attempt, 261 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: that he saw a chance. Oh I few you know, 262 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: we can get this important holy position out of this 263 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: completely unsuitable guy's hands. And this is not a great 264 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: way to go about it, but it works. And there's 265 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: actually one account that I read that suggested that Benedict 266 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: actually went to his godfather for advice because he was 267 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: tired of the papacy. He didn't want to rule anymore, 268 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: and he wasn't sure if he was allowed to just 269 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: step down, and that uh, his godfather suggested, no, no, 270 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: that's totally fine. But then Bennett, when Benedict was like, well, 271 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: what am I going to do? I don't I have 272 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: to continue living. I need an income. Hint hint, right, 273 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: and that that kind of was the genesis of this deal. Uh, 274 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: but yeah, there have there are some texts that suggests 275 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: that Gregory the sixth was in fact not so great 276 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: that he you know, he was accused of a lot 277 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 1: of crimes, but most of those have kind of been 278 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: discredited as gossip and jealousy rumors. Um, it's definitely as 279 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: the years have gone on and as it unfolds. Uh, 280 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: in just a few moments, you'll hear how his his 281 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 1: papacy unfolds, it does kind of seem like he maybe 282 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: was not the terror. You know, he was not continuing 283 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: the reign of terror that his godson had begun by 284 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: any means. Benedict's reason to leave, though, again falls into 285 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: his shocking life story, but it also seems so much 286 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: tamer too then and a lot of the earlier stuff. 287 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: It's because he wanted to get married. Um, although it 288 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: doesn't seem as though it was some star cross lovers story. No, 289 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: he wanted to marry one of his cousins. It sounds 290 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 1: seedy to us today, but it was much more common then, 291 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: keeping on. The families were huge, and sometimes cousins weren't 292 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: always like it wasn't as closely related as we think 293 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: of cousin's name. They would call people that were like 294 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: third and fourth cousins removed. Yeah, this was actually a 295 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 1: cousin's father had promised the daughter, so you know, some 296 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: sort of cousin relationship there. Um, he'd promised his daughter's 297 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: hand to Benedict on the condition that he resigned. He 298 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: seems obvious, right, um, but retracted that promise after Benedict 299 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,959 Speaker 1: really did step down. Because of course, Benedict, who's not pope, 300 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: kind of just a guy with the bribe now well, 301 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: and I mean, this is strictly conjecture on my part, 302 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: but I have to wonder if that wasn't, you know, 303 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: possibly some other person that was trying to use any 304 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: leverage they had to get this horrible person out of 305 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: a seat of power. No, I will give you my 306 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 1: daughter if you step down. And then to the daughter, 307 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: he is probably like, I'm totally not doing this. We 308 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: just just play along for the next couple of months 309 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: and we'll see how this works out. Like it'll be fine. 310 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: This is our historical conjection. That's completely jecture on my part. 311 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 1: But I also have, like she said, it's so tame. 312 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: Why would this man who apparently you know, conduct these 313 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: huge theaters of sexual exploit suddenly be interested in basically 314 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: like a country made. It doesn't really make a lot 315 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: of sense. We don't know where I guess um. But 316 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: the end of Gregory's time on the chair of Peter 317 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 1: is pretty fuzzy too, and there's there's kind of a 318 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: take back. Possibly the marriage for whatever reason, didn't really 319 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,479 Speaker 1: work out. The marriage plan fell through because the fathers 320 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: were sending the offer, and so, according to some accounts, 321 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: Benedict after that decided, well, I want to be Pope again, 322 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: take that back. Um. Some accounts also suggest that Sylvester 323 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: the Third still was laying claim to the pope's chair, 324 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: so he was still in the picture, was still a 325 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: faction supporting him um, and was still completely ready to 326 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: take the reins if opportunity presented itself. Uh. And in 327 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: the midst of this, Gregory when and met with King 328 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: Henry UM. And King Henry had not yet been crowned 329 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. He was still right, 330 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: he's uh king of Germany and was going to be crowned, 331 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: but it had not happened yet. Uh. And he Henry 332 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 1: crossed the Alps so that he could come and have 333 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 1: a pow wow and tried to restore some order in 334 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: Italy because news was reaching him all the time of 335 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: how corrupt things had become and how big of a 336 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: mess had happened in this whole crazy Benedict situation had 337 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,479 Speaker 1: been playing out. So he crossed the Alps and went 338 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: down into Italy to meet with Gregory and Uh. In 339 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: Pool's research, reliable accounts relate that Gregory was received as 340 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: a pope honorably. You know. It was a very magnanimous 341 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: meeting of the minds, because there has been some speculation 342 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 1: that King Henry the Third just came in and was like, 343 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,479 Speaker 1: wait a minute, you totally can't sell this office, like 344 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: you're out of here. But it wasn't quite as he 345 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: was treating. There wasn't a SmackDown on Gregory. It was 346 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: definitely much more of like, we have to figure this 347 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: situation out because it's not okay, but I'm willing to 348 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: meet you and discuss this. It's not okay to have 349 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: Benedict photogram Sylvester the third, and so now there are 350 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: three people laying claim to the papacy. It's not Although 351 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: some church in the timeline don't include Um Sylvester so 352 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 1: much in this Some it's like he just floated off 353 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: into the ether and was never heard from again. But 354 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: others say that he was indeed waiting in the wings 355 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: and still, you know, making noise that he would happily 356 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 1: take the share feeder if his faction were to you 357 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: come into power. So a synod was summoned, which is 358 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: a meeting of a council of high ranking church officials 359 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: UM near Rome, and they were just going to figure 360 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: the situation out, discussed the matter at hand, and talked 361 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,959 Speaker 1: to all of the the men who were laying claimed 362 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: to the seat and figure out what was best for 363 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 1: the church. Benedict decided he wasn't going to show, you know, 364 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: any part of that noise because there was uh, you know, 365 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: the very high likelihood that he would be found guilty 366 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: of Simon. He clearly it was about his problems, so 367 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: he decided not to appear at that Uh. The result, though, 368 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: was that Sylvester was stripped of his rank, um, sent 369 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 1: into Exalis, sent to a monastery, UM, taken taken out 370 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: of the power map there and then Gregory did confess 371 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: to to the purchase of his place as the head 372 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 1: of the church UM and some records say that at 373 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: that point he resigned. He deposed himself. Yeah, like he 374 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: acknowledged that it was what he did was wrong, not right, 375 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 1: and sinful, but that he was trying trying to create 376 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: positive change, but that he couldn't legitimately be pope going forward. Others, though, 377 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: say that that was not his idea at all. He 378 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 1: was deposed by the council, right and there is um. 379 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: Some historians debate that that's just a matter of kind 380 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 1: of semantics, It's just the wording of the documents because 381 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: they have to rank it as a as the deposed, 382 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: and so whether he did it or not was kind 383 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: of neither here nor there in terms of the legal 384 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: ease of the documents, but that there are several accounts 385 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: that suggest that he was. He almost behaved stupidly by 386 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: going I totally bribed my way into the seat like 387 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: I did that. They're like, why would you say why, 388 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: I'm not really intending to do this. This is I'm 389 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: just trying to fix things. And that was the only 390 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: tool I had at hand. So those three guys, so 391 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 1: all three of them are out, They're all out, and 392 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: a new guy is then a German bishop this time. Yeah, 393 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: and King Henry the Third he was not concering to 394 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: the third first choice, and King Henry the Third could 395 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: not really uh participate in the election of the next 396 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: pope because he was not the emperor yet had a 397 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: strong interest in it, though he did and allegedly the 398 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 1: council members and even some reports suggest the people of 399 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,479 Speaker 1: Rome kind of begged him, will you please, you know, 400 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 1: help us find the right person to this job. This 401 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: has been a mess, and you know, as part of 402 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: our efforts to clean things up, we would like you 403 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: to suggest somebody. His first choice was like, I don't 404 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,719 Speaker 1: want to do this job. That helps a little too 405 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: intense for me. Um. Yeah, his first choice was aled Bert, 406 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: who was Archbishop of Bremen, but he refused and in 407 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: turn he suggested Um Switzer, who was a German bishop, 408 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: and he became the new pope. It does seem I mean, 409 00:24:54,000 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: you can't question somebody. Somebody's concerned over taking this at 410 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: this point, Um, despite the power that you might be 411 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 1: able to wield. Um. Just a side note, though, the 412 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: involvement of Henry, this German interest Um did give birth 413 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: to this whole series of other dramas, problems in fighting, 414 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: lots of topics for you and Tracy to handle. Sunday 415 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: going out down the road. Real popes the next the 416 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: next phase of people who wanted to reform how things 417 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 1: were done. We're like, wait, wait, wait, you can't get 418 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 1: government officials involved in how the churches run. The papacy 419 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: runs on its own. It's its own, you know, it's 420 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: kind of siloed. Um power seats and you should not 421 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: have kings telling you who becomes pope. So if some 422 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: people questioned UM at the time, I think it was 423 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: a little bit more accepted just because they were They 424 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: were breathing a sigh of relief, like, oh, okay, we 425 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: have this Benedict mess straightened out. Um, Clement too is 426 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: in and we're just going to move forward from here. 427 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: But that sewed the seeds though of some later problems. However, Yeah, 428 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: things aren't over yet. So this center was taking place 429 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: December by ten, Clement the Second is dead, possibly poisoned, 430 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: possibly Uh. There's no definitive proof. There has been some 431 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 1: uh postulation and rumor that Benedict the ninth may have 432 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: poisoned Clement. Uh. And in bone samples of Clement Too 433 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: were tested and there were really high levels of lead found, 434 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: which could be from poisoning or it could have been 435 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: inadvertent because at the time UM wine making involved the 436 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: use of something called letharge, which is a sweetener that's 437 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: a form of lead. Uh. And you could cumulatively have 438 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: been drinking wine and building up lead poisoning over the 439 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 1: course of years, well especially after of life in religious 440 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: orders dealing with UM. So, Clement died, whether from poison 441 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: or other reasons. UM Benedict the nine may have been involved. 442 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 1: We don't know what we do know is that he 443 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: seized Rome and the title of pope for himself yet again. 444 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: This is time number three after Clement. I mean, maybe 445 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 1: that's what he was hoping at this point, grown up 446 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 1: a little bit um, But he did that November of 447 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: ten seven, shortly after Clement died. Within a year though 448 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 1: driven out of town yet again, and finally a second 449 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: German pope, this time Densists. The second was installed into 450 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 1: the pit position November. So pretty high turnover rate in 451 00:27:55,400 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: these immediate years with benedict been up three separate times. 452 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: His second to see were very short. But even so, man, 453 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: that's some tenacity. Yeah, so keep going after that thing. 454 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: It's mine, it's mine, my dad got it for I 455 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: guess there's only one resignation in there, and that's the 456 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 1: middle one. But it's these final years that I've been 457 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: seeing some accounts of in the in the newspaper paper articles. 458 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: You're talking about detailing all the resigned popes. What did 459 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: he do in these final years, because that's what people 460 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: are clearly interested in in the current situation too. What 461 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: is the current Pope benedict Um doing. I think he's 462 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: announced to lead a life of seclusion, retirement um and 463 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: Benedict the nine. It depends again on on different accounts. 464 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: Some accounts say he never lost the desire, you know, 465 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: he was always hoping to get back in there. But 466 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: others say that he didn't turn to h to a 467 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: life of quiet reflection eventually. Yes, Abbot Luke, who was 468 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: an abbot at the Abbey of Grata Ferrata um I, 469 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: wrote an account that suggested that the pontiff turned from 470 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: his sin and he turned to Bartholomew, who was the 471 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: abbey's fourth abbot, for a remedy for what he perceived 472 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: to be his disorders that were driving him to you know, 473 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: all of this sort of really extreme living. And Bartholomew's 474 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: advice led Benedict to finally resign the pontificate and say, 475 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: I acknowledge, I acknowledge I'm not pope anymore. I'm not 476 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: going to be pope again. Um. And that the you know, 477 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: the former pope then allegedly died penitent, and that he 478 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: had spent the rest of his life kind of reflecting 479 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: and meditating and praying on everything that had gone wrong. Yeah, 480 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: and he died. He didn't die until ten sixty five, 481 00:29:55,480 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: So that puts him, um, right around fifty ish, So 482 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: we don't have a hard number on how old he 483 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: was when he took the throne in um the early 484 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: ten thirties, but you know, probably longer than you're expecting. 485 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: After that's almost half the rumor, that's almost twenty years 486 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: after the final outstaying, which is a long time to 487 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: think about what he'd done. I um uh, you know, 488 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: we always hope, but whether he reformed at the end 489 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: or not didn't really matter. Historically, his papacy is regarded 490 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: as like the most shameful in or one of the 491 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: most shameful in the history of the Chair of Peter 492 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: for all the obvious reasons we've discussed. Now, yeah, it's 493 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: quite clear drama. I'm surprised there haven't been more, um 494 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: you know, film adaptations and mores of it. I wonder 495 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: now with the with the b and the int ist 496 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: in that family, there will be renewed interest mining the 497 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: people history. People start taking a look at some of 498 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: these older popes with truly wild stories, um, because it 499 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: is fascinating and I always think that a position like this, um, 500 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: that the importance it has for so many people, um, 501 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: the the people of Rome rising up to drive this 502 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: guy out of town because it is so shameful and 503 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: so upsetting. Um, it's a pretty fascinating position to to 504 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: look at and to look at some of the people 505 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: who didn't live up to expectation. Yeah. Well, and I mean, 506 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: you know, we see it through the lens of modernity, 507 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: but they're more than a billion Catholics now. And I 508 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: think if a current pope suddenly like these sorts of 509 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: stories were circulating about really any significantly established religion and 510 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: their leader, there would be some crazy news coverage like 511 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: it would be insane. I mean, there are always instances 512 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: where you hear of like tiny little kind of cult 513 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: like groups that have bizarre things that going on that 514 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: are going on, but someone with that much power in 515 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: that followers and exactly a global influence. That's it's a 516 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: lot to think about someone that corrupt having that much 517 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: influence over so many people. And it wasn't a billion then, 518 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: but still the numbers of the world, it was a 519 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: set of significant influence. So yeah, I mean, it's a 520 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: it's an interesting story and it's something something to think 521 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: about too, and following the current resignation, uh and and 522 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: just the history behind that. I always find that really 523 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: fascinating to when, um, when a modern news story makes 524 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: everybody turn back and reflect a little bit on on 525 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: what's come before. And I think probably most of people 526 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: we could agree that resigning due to to age and 527 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: an understanding of mental and physical decline. It seems so 528 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: tame and it's completely reason when you see it against 529 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: this backdrop of I want to go marry my cousin. Yes, 530 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: also maybe take some money from some people. Don't think 531 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: that would fly, It really would not, So Benedict's fascinating. Uh, 532 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: thanks for the entertainment, Benedict. I'm glad I did not 533 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: live at a time when you were influencing my world. 534 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: So I also have a bit of a listener mail 535 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: for us, and this comes from listener Helena or Helena, 536 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: I don't know which one, but I hope one of 537 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: those is right, and it says dear missed in history. 538 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: The whole time I was listening to your podcast on 539 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: Walter Potter and Texidermy, I couldn't stop thinking about that 540 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 1: chartist bart Jensen's recent work in which he took his 541 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: beloved and recently deceased cat Orville and gave him a 542 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: new life as a Copter. I know this work. As 543 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: the article in Forbes points out, yes, there is a 544 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: connection between the name Orville and the Wright brothers. This 545 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: article also names drop name drops Damien Hurst with his 546 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: use of dead animals in art, and does a nice 547 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: quick job of pointing out our own human discrepancies and 548 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: how we decide what is appropriate use of animals in 549 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: their afterlives. I wonder what the Victorians would have thought 550 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: if Walter Potter made a flying cap. I'm actually from 551 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,879 Speaker 1: North Carolina, home of the Rights, but have been living 552 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 1: in Amsterdam for the past three years. When Orville had 553 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,399 Speaker 1: his first flight in the gallery here, the video went 554 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: viral and there was a lot of public opinion against it, 555 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: which boiled down to poor Kitty. While I could agree, 556 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting how most people don't blink an 557 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 1: eye walking through the meat aisle of the grocery store, 558 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: or think of wearing a leather jacket as equal to 559 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,919 Speaker 1: parading around in the flesh of a dead animal. Stone 560 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,240 Speaker 1: together a bit of a gruesome description. Sorry, I really 561 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: think that part of what makes all orvile so threatening 562 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,439 Speaker 1: and offensive to people is this idea of automating the dead, 563 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: but just fascinating. I mean, we have everybody sort of 564 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: has their own relationship with the afterlife and their own 565 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: sort of ways of dealing with the passing of things. Uh, 566 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: you know, I couldn't do that to one of my pets. 567 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: But tell us more, tell us more about the helicopter, 568 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: because oh so if you haven't seen this, um, now, 569 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: all the listeners right now are saying, now, wait, a 570 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: lot of them have seen it, because it really did 571 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: go everywhere. If you haven't seen this. Basically, he the 572 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 1: cat was sort of flat ish and he had his 573 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: legs splayed out and Jansen kind of hooked him up. 574 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: I think it was radio controlled, so he had an 575 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 1: RC unit that he could fly it on, and he 576 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,800 Speaker 1: basically could fly the cat around like a remote control plane. 577 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,439 Speaker 1: And it's a little bit startling. I mean it's one 578 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: he's not in like a normal cat position. And too, 579 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: I mean I think people kind of had that reaction 580 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: of that's profane because it's your deceased pet, and you know, 581 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,280 Speaker 1: for some people, pets are like family and you wouldn't 582 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: do that to a family member. I saw lots of 583 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: that argument going on online. Um. Others were like, no, 584 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,800 Speaker 1: this is his way of honoring his pet, and to 585 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,720 Speaker 1: him this makes sense. And I mean, you can't dictate 586 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 1: how someone grieves for the loss of anything. So I 587 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: know it's because we just talked about popes now, but 588 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 1: I can't stop thinking about the cadavers in as a 589 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 1: as a universally considered bad idea something to do. Yeah, 590 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: I mean it's east person. I think for a lot 591 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: of a lot of people, it's just creepy too retain 592 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: the deceased in that manner. We talked about that with 593 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: Walter Potter, and yeah, how there is a creepy factor involved, 594 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, because I will say this like when 595 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,720 Speaker 1: I was first introduced to Walter Walter Potter, I remember 596 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: my first reaction being more one of fascination, and then 597 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: I had that moment of creepy but still really fascinating, 598 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: Whereas it kind of went opposite with Jansen's work, where 599 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: I went to creepy, wait a kind of I'm trying 600 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: to see what he's doing. Oh no, I still having 601 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: a hard time getting over the creepy. So I don't 602 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: know if it's just the use of small accessories and 603 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 1: tableau that makes Potter's work a little bit more palatable. 604 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: There's a sweetness to it, or is this is a 605 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:21,439 Speaker 1: little bit more kind of I don't know. It's there's 606 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 1: an in your face element to it that is a 607 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: little bit harder. I think for people to kind of 608 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: cope with it's neat to be able to put this 609 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 1: thought at continuum sort of from Potter's work. Yeah, things 610 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:37,919 Speaker 1: that disturbed but amazed people in this space. They're still 611 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: going on today. Oh yeah. Taxidermy, I think is going 612 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 1: to continue to be controversial for a long time. I 613 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,720 Speaker 1: mean it happens in resorts even now, like they're hunting 614 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: lodges that have questioned some of their decor. That is 615 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: very natural to have in a hunting lodge, like when 616 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,399 Speaker 1: you have mounted heads, but there are guests that will 617 00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 1: complain and say that that's not what they're there for. 618 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 1: They're there for you know, cocyner cozy coco into noow 619 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: time and they don't want to look at dead things. 620 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: And it kind of comes down to everybody has their 621 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: own reaction and you can't dictate how someone is going 622 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,359 Speaker 1: to feel about a thing like that. All you can 623 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: do is make your best decisions on how you handle 624 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 1: it and hope everybody else is okay or doesn't mind 625 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: just leaving you alone to do your thing. Well, thank 626 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: you Helena or Helena for passing on that note. That's 627 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 1: a really smart comparison. Yeah, it's a really astute point 628 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 1: to pull together. If you guys want to email anything 629 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 1: similar or your takes on the current pip or resignation 630 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: and how you're connecting that to history, you can email 631 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: us that. We're at History Podcast at Discovery dot com. 632 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: We're also on Twitter at mist in history, and we 633 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: are in Facebook and if you want to learn a 634 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: little bit more about popes in general, we do have 635 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: an article called how the pay to do work and 636 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 1: that'll give you pull rundown, So check that out on 637 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 1: our homepage at www dot how stuff works dot com 638 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is 639 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: that how stuff Works dot com.