1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: If you're on Clubhouse, join me for a virtual happy 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: hour this Friday, February. I'll be hosting a dynamic group 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: of black women, technologists, researchers, and digital organizers for a 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: conversation on disinformation and the Internet. All They're welcome, so 5 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: grab a bev and meet us. There more info in 6 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: the show description. You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series 7 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: from There Are No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. 8 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: Let's go back to the first wave of COVID is 9 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,279 Speaker 1: forcing people to stay in their homes, so we're all 10 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: spending a lot more time sitting in front of our computers, 11 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: and most of us are miserable. California is literally on fire. 12 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: Trump is president, still on Twitter, using the platform to 13 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: whip as supporters into a violent frenzy by peddling conspiracy 14 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: theories about the election. Waves of racial justice protests are 15 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: happening all over the globe, and bad actors are working 16 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: overtime to exploit these uncertain times and inflame existing tensions 17 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: between communities of color like the Latin X and Black community. 18 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: That fall, a viral video showed three black women flipping 19 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: over a table on an outdoor birthday party. Black Lives 20 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: Matter destroys Hispanic child's birthday party. The caption reads only 21 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: that's not true. Fat Checkers found that it was just 22 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: a dispute between two neighbors. It had nothing to do 23 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: with Black Lives Matter or protest. Big pages who shared 24 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: the video just linked it to Black Lives Matter to 25 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: further inflame tensions between the two communities, to drive home 26 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: the idea that black folks and the Latin X community 27 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: shouldn't trust each other. This and misinformation prey on people's 28 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: base emotions, and when it comes to certain identities, disinformers 29 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: can be very good at exploiting very real traumas or 30 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: existing fears. Ahead of the election, immigrant communities are being 31 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: flooded by inaccurate information about voting and now our country's 32 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: very real legacy of racism, coupled with a media landscape 33 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: that allows COVID misinformation to spread, is threatening immigrant communities 34 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: access to the vaccine at a time when those same 35 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: communities are among the most impacted by COVID. Megna Mahadeven 36 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: It's the chief disinformation defense strategist at Unity Dream, the 37 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: country's largest immigrant youth led organization. She fights the harmful 38 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: spread of disc and misinformation in immigrant communities. But before that, 39 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: she was just a frustrated tech employee in the Bay Area. 40 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 1: I moved out to the Bay UM was working at 41 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: Facebook during elections and had a pretty interesting experience working there. 42 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: UM with the way that the election unfolded and kind 43 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: of the way that people reacted UH in tech, it 44 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: was really concerning to me. I had this whole image 45 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: and idea of being from Georgia and the South. I 46 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: thought that the Bay in California would be this super 47 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: liberal place with really progressive values, and instead what I 48 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: found was that in response to the elections, people were 49 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: really drinking the kool aid at Facebook in a way 50 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: that was super concerning to me. UM. No one was 51 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: willing to acknowledge the role that Facebook had on the elections, UH, 52 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: and there were just a lot of performative and um 53 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: surface level reactions to what had happened, and I was 54 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,959 Speaker 1: pretty disturbed by the way that that went down. Megna 55 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: left Facebook and started working at Google. In Google engineer 56 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: James to Moore wrote what was commonly called the Google Memo, 57 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: where he called Google a quote ideological echo chamber and 58 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: blasted the company for putting too much emphasis on diversity 59 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: in tech. It was pretty alienating. I don't know if 60 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: remember the James Demore memo uh came out then, Oh yeah, 61 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: I hadn't thought about that asshole in so long. You 62 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: just took me back like I forgot about that. I 63 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: also was on an all male team of all male 64 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: engineers and I was only female, and I brought it 65 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: to my manager and was like, I really think we 66 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: should discuss this. I want to talk about this with 67 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: the team. And just the rejection that I got in 68 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: discussing it, talking about any acknowledgement of it was so frustrating. Uh. 69 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: And it was just kind of experience under experience. So 70 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: Magna had a lot of experiences like this, experiences that 71 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: followed her from company to company, confirming that working in 72 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley just wasn't where she was supposed to be. 73 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: Like how when she was working at Snapchat, they featured 74 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: an advertisement game where users were asked if they wanted 75 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: to punch Chris Brown or slap Rihanna, a survivor of 76 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 1: domestic violence. Snapchat has now removed the ad with this statement, 77 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: the ad was reviewed and approved in error. We are 78 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: sorry that this happened. It was almost just my entire 79 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: time of working in Silicon Valley in tech. I tried 80 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: to attribute it to the tech company. I tried to 81 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: attribute it to different environmental factors, but I really just 82 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: felt an avalanche of so many different things constantly happening 83 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: that I really felt the tech industry was just deeply problematic, 84 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: and so I pivoted from there to the Kitboard Center 85 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: really focused on diversifying the tech industry UM and bringing 86 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: in specifically black folks UM as well as indigenous Latin 87 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: X folks UM, and just more people of color, more 88 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: women into the tech industry. UH. And after working there 89 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: for about two and a half years, I came into 90 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: this work earlier this year actually UM with everything happening, 91 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: with the uprisings and the way that tech continued to 92 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,919 Speaker 1: handle and react all of these things at such a 93 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: surface level, I knew I wanted to go deeper in 94 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: fighting a lot of these systems. And there's a lot 95 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: of different places in resistance against tech. UM. I've tried 96 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: and believed in resistance in the tech company. I've believed 97 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: and tried resistance UM at the level where you're working 98 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: directly with them UM, working at the foundational level and 99 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 1: partnering with tech companies. And I am really enjoying this 100 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: space that I'm in now of being in movement against 101 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: UM and resisting against tech companies because I think that 102 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: there needs to just be a different power shift UM 103 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: in the way that all of these actions take place, 104 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: which is what brought me to a lot of disinformation work. 105 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: So I'm very passionate about tech company accountability UM tech culture, 106 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: but at the same time, I'm also very passionate about 107 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: the power of communities of color and the power of 108 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: building with community, and that's what brought me to my 109 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: work at United with Dream. So how have you seen 110 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: disinformation playing out in immigrant communities? Right? So, disinformation, to 111 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: be clear, has been around since the beginning and the 112 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: age of the Internet UM, and we've experienced in so 113 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: many different ways. But with this particular year, something has 114 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: shifted UM with where all many of us are socially isolated. UM. 115 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: We are on the Internet more than ever, using our 116 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: devices more than ever, and this UH disinformation campaigns are 117 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: really coming in to take advantage of a lot of 118 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: people's emotional vulnerabilities, their financial vulnerabilities, our unhappiness with the 119 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: way that society has been upholding US, and particularly within 120 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: the Lucky Next and the immage grant community, there is 121 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: a way that disinformation and misinformation campaigns have prayed on 122 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: UH immigrant communities general fear of political instability. Right, So, 123 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: my family moved to the United States seeking a better 124 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: life than what we were previously offered UM, and that's 125 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: how most immigrant UM families come to the United States. 126 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: Is just hoping for a better situation for our families, 127 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: for children, etcetera. There's a lot of fear there in 128 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: being associated or brought back to a previous situation or 129 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: political instability or corruption. And the US is a really 130 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: good job of playing up this facade of being a 131 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: very stable, UM almost perfect utopian society, particularly in the 132 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: immigrant eyes. So UM ways that this does come out 133 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: or transpire is these affiliations with socialism and creating false 134 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: associations with socialism that and still fear in people UM 135 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: trying to create this image that America has been great 136 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: will be great UM and just needs to continue on 137 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: a certain trajectory, particularly the Latin X community. There's also 138 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: a lot of work being done by white supremacists to 139 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: create a wedge racially with the latin X community and 140 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: other communities of color. And the way that this is 141 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: done is very strategically almost creating a race hierarchy of 142 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: affiliating um latin X with with more whiteness UM and 143 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: kind of trying to create a separation from lackness. It 144 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: also is a full rature of the upper latin X identity. 145 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,719 Speaker 1: So by using race as this wedge issue to divide 146 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: communities UM and create this superiority among some latin X folks, 147 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:47,599 Speaker 1: there's really a way to misinform people that by accepting 148 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: and siding with white supremacy, you are now offered the 149 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: privilege of being white. When I have you know, dug 150 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: into different types of disinformation I've seen, especially around the uprise, 151 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: things I definitely saw, particularly on Facebook, these images of 152 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,719 Speaker 1: attacks on like latin X like businesses or churches and 153 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: clearly meant to be giving this impression that oh, this 154 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: this you know, wave of violence and and instability is 155 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 1: coming and the only and like the sort of thing 156 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: that they the logical next step is like, so vote 157 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: for Trump, so being a braged so you know, whatever 158 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 1: it is that they're trying to get, like, you know, 159 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: get you to feel or get you to believe, and 160 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: it's really just so insidious how it taps into these 161 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: deep these deeply held fears and deeply held emotions. It 162 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: really they so expertly exploited. It's it really is like 163 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: I hate to say this, but I have found myself 164 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: saying this over and over again during this series, like 165 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: these distant informers are just really good, you know. It's 166 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: like they really are effective. They know these things that 167 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: are going to tap into something that that really can 168 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: like trigger you have to feel to some Well, the 169 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: thing is is we've set up an infrastructure for them 170 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: to be good, right, Like we've really made it easy 171 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: because we almost thirst for the kind of information that 172 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: they're providing. And I think something really important to acknowledge 173 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: because again, this disinformation work has been led by UM, 174 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 1: by so many black researchers, by so many female researchers 175 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: who have been doing this work for a very long time. 176 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: But this year has provided a very different opportunity UM. 177 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: Just in the same way that social media and internet 178 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: algorithms have kind of been snowballing out of control. Right, 179 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: there's a lot of ways that our attention is commodified UM, 180 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: A lot of ways that our attention is driven towards 181 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: these really wild news headlines. And that's been the case 182 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: for years and years, And of course there's been many 183 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: different political situations for the past years, but is something 184 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: different right There's a pandemic, the recession, uprisings, the climate change. 185 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: I mean, there were the few days when, um, I 186 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: mean I've been living in Oakland for the past five 187 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: years and the sky was orange. You know. It's a 188 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: kind of different sensation happening right now where a lot 189 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 1: of things are coming to a head to the point 190 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: where the news headlines are pretty wild. But they've been 191 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: wild for the past five six years because that's what 192 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: gets attention, that's what gets engagement with the algorithm. And 193 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: I really like to frame it as a sort of 194 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: gas lighting, honestly. UM, my friends and I have this 195 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: radio show called Dustopia now that we do on a 196 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: local Oakland station for fun, and something we talk about 197 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: very often is how confusing it is to live in 198 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: a society that gaslights you constantly, that tells you that 199 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: COVID isn't real, even though you're staying at home in 200 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: your isolating you haven't seen your friends in weeks or months. 201 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: But then you're being told that this disease or this 202 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: virus isn't that serious. Um, there's so much gas lighting 203 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: around just accepting the unknown, right, There's so many things 204 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: that we just need to be okay with. We don't 205 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: know what's going to happen, and some of that's just okay. 206 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: It's okay to not know the answer. And on top 207 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:12,239 Speaker 1: of that, a lot of these situations and political situations, 208 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 1: climate situations are really really complex and their nuanced and 209 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: you can't just generalize about them. But what happens is 210 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: these headlines and these articles and these different types of 211 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: information they create an outlet. They create almost this really 212 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,959 Speaker 1: easy gesture of if I just accept this information or 213 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: this theory, then everything makes sense. Then everything I understand 214 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 1: exactly what's happening, why these things are happening, and how 215 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: they all come together. And so it's almost an escape 216 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: route from just having to sit with the unknown and 217 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: sit with the reality of what this year is. Let's 218 00:12:51,920 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: take a quick break and we're back. So if I 219 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: sound a little harried throughout this conversation, it's because Megna 220 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: and I were speaking in the fall and I was 221 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: definitely on edge. I can hear it in my voice. 222 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 1: In pre election meetings at work, we were both preparing 223 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: for various election outcomes, including the potential for violence. I 224 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: didn't know what would happen at the Capitol on Januy 225 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: Ray six, but it's clearly you felt like something bad 226 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: was coming. So there's a really funny example of Earlier 227 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: this week, I was working with a colleague and writing 228 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: a memo on what we'll do if there's a coup. 229 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: And it was funny because we were framing it in 230 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: the reality of the situation, right like, if this happens, 231 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:43,839 Speaker 1: we all need to move now. We need you to 232 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: sign up for these things. And I said to my 233 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: colleague like, this kind of sounds like a boiler plate 234 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: email because we've been talking in this tone for so long. 235 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: But in reality, this email is like a pretty crazy email. 236 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: If I received this email, I would be like, Wow, 237 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 1: where are we at? Um. And at the same time, 238 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: it just feels like we've been in this state for 239 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: so long that there's almost no emotional capacity to reckon 240 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: with what's happening or process what's going on. Absolutely, I 241 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,239 Speaker 1: had a very similar moment earlier this week. So Um, 242 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: as you know, As you know, I worked with ultra violet, 243 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: and we were doing our election post election scenario planning, 244 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: and I realized I looked at it my notebook, and 245 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: I realized the thing I was planning for was um 246 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: like a like mass mass violence, like a mass violent 247 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: event triggered by the election. And I just had this 248 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: moment where I was like, what is this. I am 249 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: in a meeting right now planning for our contingency plan 250 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: for what will happen if our election trigger some sort 251 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: of like big scary thing. And truly it was a 252 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: real moment that I could not wrap my head around. 253 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: On the one hand, it seems very dystopiant that I 254 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: would be, you know, um preparing for this, But on 255 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: the other hand, it's something that we needed to prepare for. 256 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: And I just never, I truly like never thought that 257 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: I would the things that we are talking about and 258 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: preparing for and dealing dealing with. I never in a 259 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: million years that I would find myself dealing with them. Yeah, 260 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: And I think that's also kind of attributed to again 261 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: going back to this gas lighting feeling of the way 262 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: that we have accepted normalcy or we're still expecting people 263 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: to work eight to five when all of these different 264 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: things are happening around us. It's pretty wild. And I 265 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: think the way that disinformation also allows a place for 266 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: people to put blame on really specific people, really specific parties, 267 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: instead of understanding the way that all of this is 268 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: so systemic. It's something that's rooted in the way that 269 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: we move every single day. You know, we're still a 270 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: tune to Yes, there's a pandemic and these different things happening, 271 00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: but I still need to be productive. I still need 272 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: to I'll put all of these things. Um, it's so 273 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: rooted into all of our behavior, and it's part of 274 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: I think the way that we do consume this information 275 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: and disinformation and conspiracies as almost a pacifier in these moments. Yeah, 276 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: that's a really good point. And I I find myself 277 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: like I was not to get too much, but like 278 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: I was talking to my therapist about this, and I 279 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: was like, you know, maybe maybe we shouldn't be like 280 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: the fact that we are all continuing to work and 281 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: like trying to be productive on the backdrop of what's 282 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: happening to our country. Maybe we shouldn't be productive right now, 283 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: right Like maybe like maybe we should be a little 284 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: less okay with you know, what's happening, that maybe things 285 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: shouldn't be business as usual and really kind of having 286 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: to come to terms with the fact that we are 287 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: working and living and living our lives in what feels 288 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: like healthscape. Yeah, first of all, never too much talk 289 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: about conversation your therapist. Honestly, that's a podcast I would 290 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: listen to, UM, but yeah, it's it's really weird. And 291 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: then there's just this added element of not being in 292 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: community with people, which is another thing that's offered by 293 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: disinformation and particularly with conspiracy theories UM that really prey 294 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: on people who are lonely because there's so much isolation 295 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: happening right now, but there's so much online community around 296 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: certain conspiracies that it is again a place where you 297 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: can go to talk about what's happening because there's not 298 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: many outlets. And it's also again hard to reckon with 299 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: political differences with loved ones in these times. And like, 300 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 1: you know, I mean my friend are talking and it's 301 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 1: she's she made this great point of like we're just 302 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: in this moment where we're getting to know everything about 303 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: everyone we know and love, and it's almost a little 304 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: bit too much information. You know, I didn't need to 305 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 1: know this extent of where your values fall and like 306 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,360 Speaker 1: where your lines are drawn. Um, you know, it's it's 307 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: a lot of exposure to every single political opinion of 308 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 1: another person and their values. You know, when we talk 309 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: about disinformation, we're often talking about technical things like AI 310 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 1: and algorithms, but it's important to remember that disinformation is 311 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: also about relationships. Just listen to anyone who's lost a 312 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: loved one to an all encompassing online conspiracy theory like 313 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: Q and on. It tears apart families and creates deep divisions. 314 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 1: Last fall, Magna and United Dream held a healing space 315 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: for people harmed by its impact. Something that I've really 316 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: found is that disinformation, it really can impact relationships. You know, 317 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: finding out that you're someone that you have like your 318 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: cousin or your aunt, someone that you love and trust 319 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: and you you know, you think like this is a smart, 320 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: thoughtful person and a like a thoughtful addition to my 321 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 1: life and to my community. Finding out that they have 322 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 1: been really misled by a conspiracy theory or different disinformation 323 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: can be jarring. And I think that's something that I 324 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: love about what you're doing with the Unitedy Dream. You know, 325 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: you actually held a healing space around disinformation yesterday, I 326 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: can you tell me a bit about like why that was, 327 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,719 Speaker 1: why that made sense for your organization to be framing 328 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: in that way, like not a webinar or a training 329 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: but a healing space. I think the thing with immigrant 330 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: communities to understand is that there's a lot of cultural 331 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: difference that happens. And especially being a child of immigrants 332 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: in the United States, I can definitely attest to feeling 333 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: like you come from two different worlds. Um my family 334 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: immigrated from India. I feel like I have this Indian 335 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: world at home, and then I also am this other 336 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: not quite American person, and it's very difficult to merge 337 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: the two. On top of that, being an immigrant, there's 338 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: also a lot of value to coming to America. You know, 339 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: there's a whole narrative with your folks and your family 340 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: back home that you made it. You know what it 341 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: took for you. You know that you beat the odds. 342 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 1: You were one of very few people who were able 343 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: to make it to America. It's a huge accomplishment. So 344 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: to then come to America and question its political stability, 345 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: um it's ability and power to be the life that 346 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: you have always dreamed for. Your generations to follow in 347 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: your children. It's a really hard thing to do to 348 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: question the infrastructure whereas um, I mean, even if I 349 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: look at my own family, right, So, my grandmother was 350 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: married at age nine and she had ten children, and 351 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: my parents come from the villages. They didn't have running 352 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: water or electricity really until they were in their mid twenties. 353 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 1: And then my sister and I who live a pretty 354 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: liberal life in the United States. So the cultural difference 355 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: is very vast, or can be very vast. And what 356 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: we've seen with a lot of our staff is a 357 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: lot of confusion and difficulty explaining what's going on with 358 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: family and getting to realize that there's a lot of 359 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: political differences and what's happening right now. And it's not 360 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: necessarily that the values are different, right um, As I 361 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: was saying earlier, a lot of people believe in ritual solidarity. 362 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: They are folks of color. But what happens, and it's 363 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: actually pretty concerning the way that misinformation campaigns are being run. 364 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 1: But they are truly understanding or believing the misinformation in 365 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: a way where it is fully indoctrinated into their understanding 366 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: or it's they're so deep in the conspiracy theory that 367 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to pull someone out, and especially with 368 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: topics that are so close to the heart UM, so 369 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: things where we're talking about who we're voting for for president. 370 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: To understand that suddenly you're realizing that your parents are 371 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 1: Trump supporters is extremely painful. It's extremely emotional to realize 372 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: that your parents are also uplifting and sharing the wrong 373 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: videos of different contexts of UM birthday parties that are 374 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: showing racial conflicts or like Black Lives Matter issues and 375 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: they are picking the wrong side. It's extremely personal. So 376 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: what we're finding there's been a lot of different situations 377 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: I can talk about, but UM some of our staff 378 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: have had to fully divorce from their families at this time, 379 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: because when you're doing movement work or you're even trying 380 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: to be in this space, it's really difficult to reckon 381 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: with kind of having to explain who you are and 382 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: your core values because in some way it's almost trying 383 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: to explain your vision of this world, and it's scary 384 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 1: with your family to feel invalidated UM with your vision 385 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: for the world. It really is that serious. When people 386 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: start to reveal UM the thoughts behind their politics, but 387 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: the reason we're holding healing space, and we had an 388 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 1: amazing time yesterday with our partner of Listening Works to 389 00:22:55,040 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: really talk about the malicious um actors behind the disinformation. 390 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 1: And I think it's important here to also call out 391 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 1: the distinction between disinformation and misinformation, and that everyone's really 392 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: looking for the truth right now, like what's actually happening 393 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,239 Speaker 1: with the government, what's actually happening with the pandemic, and 394 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: in doing that, a lot of people are spreading misinformation 395 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: where they're just trying to keep others informed. Then there's 396 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: actors who have a malicious goal beneath what they're doing. 397 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 1: And for most of us, our family and friends don't 398 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 1: have a malicious goal, but they have become caught and 399 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: we're targeted by people who are spreading disinformation, and we 400 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: need to understand how this is really a racialized effort 401 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: that's preying on some of the biggest vulnerabilities of immigrant communities, 402 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: of communities of color, and that's where they're really getting 403 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: into the heads of people who are vulnerable and who 404 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: do need um basic societal things. And that's what's important 405 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 1: for us to find ways to heal as a community, 406 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: because yes, we can look at tech companies and tell 407 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: them that they need to have more accountability. Yes, we 408 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: can ask journalists to change their headlines, but at the 409 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: end of the day, are they really going to do it. 410 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: It'll take time. So it's really up to us as 411 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 1: a community to be empowered to take power in these 412 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: moments to rebuild and unifier communities. More. After a quick break, 413 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: let's get right back into it. Disinformers prey on people 414 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: who are already underrepresented. For instance, because there aren't enough 415 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 1: places to get Spanish language news coverage. Bad actors can 416 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: exploit that gap and fill it with harmful and accurate information. 417 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: Disinformers are really exploiting a group of people who have 418 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: been traditionally like underserved and underrepresented. You know, I know 419 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: that one of the reasons why in the Latin next community, 420 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 1: why Spanish language disinformation is so insidious, because disinformers are 421 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: seizing on a like like a news gap. There aren't 422 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: that many there aren't an enough you know, news sources 423 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: in Spanish, and so they know, okay, well we can 424 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: swoop in and fill that gap. These like this is 425 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 1: a community that is that is currently underserved. We can 426 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: serve them, but will serve them up harmful lies. There's 427 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: an accountability gap um of checking Spanish sources, of checking 428 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: Spanish articles, and that just really leaves the door open 429 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: for people to pray on communities of color and Latino 430 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: X communities in that way and manipulate the power that 431 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: we all have as community of color and Latin X 432 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: communities have to really shape their own agenda. Yeah, that's 433 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: really what I see these. I mean, like, if we 434 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: were to like zoom out on these conversations, I want 435 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:51,120 Speaker 1: to build a world where disinformation is not profitable where 436 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: you know, I think that would be the only thing 437 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: that gets platforms to relate. If we if we built 438 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: a world where this was not a profitable thing to 439 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: do and not a profitable thing to have on your 440 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: a platform, I think that will be the way to 441 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: actually solve it. I don't I don't see any other way. 442 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: I think that is. Yes, appreciate, I do have a 443 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: nail on the head. It's there's so many issues with 444 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: the way that we make money off of disinformation. Right. One, 445 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: it's just the general social media algorithm, because I think 446 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: at this point we're already here, right the disinformation is rampant. 447 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 1: People are deeply manipulated every single time that we hold 448 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: a session. Whenever I get into the weeds of getting 449 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: on the ground floor of the way that Florida, Arizona, Texas, 450 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 1: all these battleground states, people have been deeply targeted and 451 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: are getting deeply manipulated in a way where we really 452 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: need to make a significant effort to pull people out 453 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: of this information that has fully entrenched and confused them. 454 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: But a big part of it is our social media 455 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: algorithm makes money off of the engagement of articles, and 456 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: the articles that kept the most engagement, and the news 457 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: that gets the most engagement is the news that's disinformation 458 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,360 Speaker 1: and misinformation in the way that it's framed, the way 459 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: that it's created. So we're already at this point. But 460 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 1: these algorithms are learning on their own, and the Internet 461 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 1: is learning on its own. So we're only going to 462 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: fall deeper unless we have a serious intervention and unless 463 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: we teach people how to protect themselves from the vulnerabilities 464 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: on the internet. Well that's a great segue to my 465 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: next question, how can folks protect themselves in their communities? 466 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: So I think part of this it is kind of 467 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: going back to healing, but we need to be understanding 468 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: of one another. And this thing I'm personally working on 469 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: um a really fun success story. I think of healing 470 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 1: that I've been working on with my Indian community is 471 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: me in a bunch of the other children. We all 472 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: kind of immigrated here together from India. We have been 473 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: trying to hold our family accountable. So we have monthly 474 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: meetings where we bring up different topics and we talk 475 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: about what's going on. And it's really really hard. It's 476 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: hard to sit and listen to someone's opinion, no matter 477 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 1: what it is. And that something I think we've only 478 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: had an increasing intolerance for, or decreasing tolerance for, with 479 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: the way that we have these comfortable Internet silos where 480 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: we can live within only people who have our own opinion. 481 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: But we need to make a call to unity this country, 482 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: no matter what the election outcome is, no matter what happens, 483 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: we are so divided, our families are so divided, our 484 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,239 Speaker 1: communities are so divided. We need to make time and 485 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: effort to listen and bring our communities together on the 486 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: same page and heal. I think that's something I really 487 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: want to uplift as an effort to push against this 488 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: information and misinformation and I think that also creates a 489 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: stronger support system for people who do fall deep into 490 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: the webs of conspiracy theories and um disinformation. Another piece 491 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: of that is, whenever we're seeing things on the Internet, 492 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: before we share them and amplify them, we need to 493 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: just learn to pause. There's such an emotional experience and 494 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: even an embodied experience when we're on the internet. Right, 495 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: most people when they're on their phones are bent over 496 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: neck down, pretty disassociated from their physical existence and lost 497 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: in the internet. We need to learn to reconnect with 498 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: our physical selves. What even when we're on our devices 499 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: and notice, if something is making you feel uncomfortable, if 500 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: it's making you anxious, think twice before you share it, 501 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: fact check it, Think about why might someone have put 502 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: this article out there? Why is this news being created? 503 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: Who made it? What's the agency? What am I trying 504 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: to do by resharing this and really thinking through the chain, 505 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: the part that we all play in the chain of information. 506 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I have to tell you, but right 507 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: before we got on this, on this call, I had 508 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: had that moment myself. Right, so I train on disinformation. 509 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: I give people that that same advice, right, don't amplify it. 510 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: If it. If you think something is fake, if you 511 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: think something is is disinformation, disinformation, take a beat, don't 512 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: amplify it. I saw a video of t I, the 513 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: rapper from Atlanta. So I saw this video of the 514 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: rapper t I on a pretty big hip hop and 515 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: culture website, and in it, he says that he can't 516 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: get COVID because he drinks hot tea. Now we know 517 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: that it is completely inaccurate and ridiculous. Hot beverages like 518 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: tea do not cure COVID. And when I saw this video, 519 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: you know, my heart was racing. I was thinking about 520 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: all the different Black people who have died of COVID, 521 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: the harm that COVID has done to our communities in particular, 522 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: and all the different Black people who probably think of 523 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: t I as a leader in our communities, as a 524 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: voice of someone that they look up to or should 525 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: listen to. And I got more and more angry. My 526 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: first instinct was to retweet it and call him out 527 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: and call the video out and force him to be 528 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: accountable for it. But then I was like, do I 529 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: really want more people seeing this video? Do I really 530 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: want more people seeing this completely inaccurate, dangerous information. So 531 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: I had to go through that process of kind of 532 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: taking a minute, taking a breath, sitting with my emotions, 533 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: and really just taking a step back. But in that moment, 534 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: it was a real moment of emotional and cognitive surge. 535 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: And that's that's what they're so good at, because what 536 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: they're looking for is that engagement. And you know, even 537 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: if you like it, if you look at it for 538 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: a long time, all these media companies are tracking that 539 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: how long you're looking at it, how many times you're 540 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: watching the video, and that's what brings it engagement. And 541 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: I think actually what comes to mind when you share 542 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,959 Speaker 1: that story is the amazing guide that you made an 543 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: Ultra Violet UM when Kamala Harris was selected as a 544 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: vice presidential candidate. And I thought that was really powerful. 545 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: So this guide UM about what are the tropes that 546 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: happened most commonly in the way that we talk about 547 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: female political candidates and black female political candidates and um 548 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: interracial immigrant of female candidates. So I think the way 549 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: that you frame that of here are things not to uplift. 550 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: Don't talk too much about the way that she's dressed 551 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: or makeup, or her facial expressions or her family role, 552 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: and that was super helpful to me, and I wish 553 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: we even thought through that on a broader level in general, 554 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,479 Speaker 1: about social media, the internet and the way that we 555 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: engage with any talking points to really decolonize and understand 556 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: the way that we are uplifting racism by talking so 557 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: much about what's little way in doing, what's U T 558 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: I doing, etcetera. Yeah, I mean we were on a 559 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: panel together, you and I where you made this great 560 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: point that disinformation it keeps us from seeing from seeing 561 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: who we really are, right, it keeps us from seeing 562 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: each other fully. And I think, you know, it's important 563 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: to have those conversations that we talk about this information, 564 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: but I would love to have that conversation more broadly. 565 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: What are the things that keep us from being able 566 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: to fully see each other for who we really are? 567 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: And you know, it's like we have these these filters 568 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: on that that when you see a woman like like Harris, 569 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: it's like, oh family role, oh complex, oh speak, like 570 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: the way that she speaks. All of these little things 571 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: that keep us from really seeing each other and engaging 572 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: with each other for who we really are and like 573 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: seeing each other fully. Yeah, what a beautiful question to 574 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: ask for ship. You know, I was actually reading again 575 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: last night. Um, I think it's a Sada shakur is 576 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: that you can't spent all the Master's house with the 577 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: Master's tool, you know I'm talking about and yes, the classic. 578 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: I was like, I need to I need something uplifting, 579 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: and I think it's really interesting in these times. So 580 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: first of all, yeah, I want to credit that they 581 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: these are ideas that came from her, But um, I 582 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: think it's really a really great question in this moment 583 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: where we are starting to finally begin to scratch the 584 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: surface of the Black Lives Matter movement and talking about 585 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,479 Speaker 1: race in a more nuanced way, talking about intersectionality for 586 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: the first time. I mean, I was pretty shocked to 587 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: hear this that. I think it was a Biden that said, 588 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: you know, black trans women are dying, and I thought 589 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: that was really powerful. Um One, it's very late in 590 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: the game to start realizing it. But at the same time, 591 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: we are finally beginning to scratch the surface of intersectional 592 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: identities and racial identities, and at the same time, the 593 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: way that people want to talk about it is still 594 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: by generalizing to the black experience, to the trans experience. 595 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: Two very particular things and still try to categorize people 596 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: into boxes. And I think in the same way, the 597 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: reason that disinformation offers so much to people is because 598 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: we don't want to really get nuanced. And at the 599 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: end of the day, I'm talking all these things about 600 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: um unifying, and we need to unify, but at the 601 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: same time, part of unifying is also celebrating our differences. 602 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: We need to understand and acknowledge the differences that we 603 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: have and really figure out ways to define and understand 604 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:52,959 Speaker 1: the complexity of those experiences and uplift them, because that's 605 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,919 Speaker 1: really where our creativity lies, and that's where our power lies, 606 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: and that's why we're stronger together is because we're different. 607 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 1: And I think it takes a lot of work. It's 608 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: really easy to be lazy, and I mean, I think 609 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: that there's a lot of different narratives around race that 610 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: are that can be lazy, that can be um kind 611 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 1: of followed up into like a quick tweet, but it 612 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: really shouldn't be um that short or pippy of a statement. 613 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,240 Speaker 1: It is very nuanced. And the more comfortable we get 614 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: with the nuance with the unknown with patients, I think 615 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:30,879 Speaker 1: that's what it will take for us to really start 616 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: to see each other and uplift one another. If you've 617 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:49,879 Speaker 1: enjoyed this podcast, please help us grow by subscribing. Got 618 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 1: a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just 619 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: want to say hi. We'd love to hear from you 620 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: at Hello at TANGOI Dot Come Disinformed is brought to 621 00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: you by There Are No Girls on the Internet. It's 622 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio, OH and Unbust. Creative 623 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tory Harrison is our 624 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: supervising producer and engineer. Michael Lamoto is our contributing producer. 625 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,839 Speaker 1: I'm your host Bridget Todd. For more great podcasts, check 626 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: out the I Heart Medio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever 627 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.