WEBVTT - House On A Hill 0:00:02.840 --> 0:00:06.040 To me, it maybe had something to do with that 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:08.440 one little girl. But to me, there's a bigger read. 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:10.399 You can't tell me. The day won't be in. He 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:16.200 killed eight people over one child. It's just so bizarre 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:20.680 that there's so many twists and turns. It's mind boggling, 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:23.680 and it's like a puzzle trying to put the pieces together. 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:27.720 It's just got so many tentacles and goes in so 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:32.839 many different directions. Nobody has said anything other than he 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:36.920 was shy and in love with Hannah Road. Literally it 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:46.879 love like something is off. This is the Piked massacre 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:52.120 returned to Pike County season three, episode ten, House on 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:56.680 a Hill. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:01.520 Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. In researching this story, 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:04.560 we sometimes find ourselves mired in details that lead to 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:09.040 dead ends. In this episode, before George Wagner the fourth Trial, 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:11.520 we're stepping back to take an eagle life view on 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:15.800 the dark power dynamics at play in southern Ohio. We 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:18.560 have uncovered some shocking new theories about what might have 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.360 led to the grizzly murders of the eight members of 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:25.840 the Rodent family. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. After following the 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:28.240 story for years, you really start to see that there 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:31.200 are sort of two piked in's. In one piked in 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:34.040 there are people simply trying to live, work and put 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:36.039 food on the table for their family. And on the 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:38.800 other hands, there's a lot of people in power who 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:42.080 are misusing it. And quite a few of these individuals 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:46.200 have used their power for personal gain period, often with 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:49.680 brutal consequences for those who get caught in the crossfire. 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:56.400 No one exemplifies this more than Michael Moran, who we 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.680 know is a local Portsmouth lawyer who was accused of 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:04.120 doing all sorts of heinous things. As we've discussed in 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:09.560 previous episodes, Michael Moran preyed upon vulnerable female clients, often 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:13.959 prostitutes and drug users. He lured them in with inexpensive 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:18.080 legal representation, then trapped him into sexual slavery and worse. 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:22.520 His victims were people like Megan Lancaster who went missing 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:27.000 in twenty thirteen. Aungie Montgomery knew her and her sister 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:29.600 in law, Katie, who spent years trying to find Megan. 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:35.720 Here's Angie. The way Katie described Megan to me. She 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:37.640 looked at me and she was like, I knew she 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:39.880 would find a way to get a whole subody. I 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:43.280 knew she would. That's what I always you know, it 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:45.320 was in the back of her mind. I knew she 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:51.600 would find a way to say something to somebody. During 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:54.400 her tireless crusade to find out what happened to Megan, 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:58.120 Katie Lancaster also fell victim to the pressures of life 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:03.560 in Pike County. I'm going to be honest with you, 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:06.760 she was easy. I didn't know it. Her and her 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:10.120 husband went through hell right before she died. And she 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:12.800 also told me that the court told her to stop 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:19.800 with her Megan's campaign. She was found in an area 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:23.000 in Portsmouth it's known for drug dally and she was 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:27.960 found in a house having apparently overdosed. Right that's the 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:32.240 same area that Moran's office was in, right right up 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:37.760 the road. Here's Jeff speaking with Sophie, an acquaintance of 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:41.680 the Wagner family. We spoke with her in an earlier episode, 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:44.360 but as a reminder, she's the one who alerted us 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:48.920 to ties between Michael Moran and Angela Wagner's father, Pug Carter. 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:52.160 It's not a surprise to me that her dad had 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:54.880 him as a lawyer. That was news to me. How 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:57.280 did you find that out? You probably send the link 0:03:57.320 --> 0:03:59.760 to it. We talked about Michael Moran on the podcast, 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:03.360 but kind of as an outlier. It just spoke to 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:06.640 crimes that were happening in the community. But this really 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:11.360 connects Michael Moran to the Wagner family. Yes, and Angie 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:13.800 was always really close with her dad. From what I 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:16.000 remember is that there was like an undercover seeing where 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:18.479 the police were going to his house and purchasing and 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:22.279 selling drugs. So actual drug list is how he got caught. 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:29.680 Another local sleuth who goes by j J, confirms the story. 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:34.520 Everybody there in that little town of South Webster knew 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:38.359 what he was doing. I mean, he was their supplier. 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:43.600 Is it just mainly pot now we're talking about or 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:50.080 party drugs like heroin and cocaine, oxy cod own. He 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:53.159 even did time in prison for his drug dealings. He 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:55.800 was a want to be gangster, if you will. So 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.080 that's what she grew up in, That's what she was 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:03.040 familiar with. Billy Wagner's aunts lived across the street from 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:09.960 the cars. That's how they had to have met. For 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:13.120 a defense lawyer like Michael Moran, Pug Carter was probably 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:17.440 a legitimate source of study income, but he also recognized 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.280 another possible stream of cash from his less well off 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:26.520 female clients. Michael Moran exploited the power dynamic ruthlessly, often 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.960 abusing the women he lured in and calling them the 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:35.720 product he turned around and sold their services right back 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:39.359 to the most powerful and Pike County. It's rumored that 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:41.400 some of this took place in a house on a 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:47.520 hill just south of Piketon. Here's Stephanie speaking with Angie Montgomery. 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:51.359 This is just, you know, frankly, rumor and speculation that 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:57.479 there's a place that was this power slash bar, and officials, 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:01.080 people that worked for the local police would go there 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:04.400 for drinks, and sometimes there were girls there and maybe 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:08.480 not such great behavior would happen behind closed doors. Yes, 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:10.159 and if you give me two seconds, I'll give you 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:12.080 the name of the place. It's on top of Big 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:15.039 Beer Lake. It's just like a it's like a resort. 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:16.720 I was told that there was some sort of a 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:20.240 security PINpad that you could go into that club at anytime. 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.600 I shouldn't call it a club like a bar anytime 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:26.920 if you had a key. Yes, it's like you just 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:29.800 take this place and just drop it in the middle, 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:32.200 and it lands on top of this mountain because you 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.479 have to have four rollers to get up to it. Actually, 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:40.159 I dated a police officer years ago. I remember me 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:43.159 and whom We're driving down one or four and we 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:46.400 drove past Big Beer Lake. I remember whom telling me 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:49.160 that's where all the cops go to get chicks and 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:54.520 do illegal stuff. And this was in like nineteen ninety nine. 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:56.520 He told me this, and I thought he was blowing 0:06:56.560 --> 0:07:01.080 smoke at my ass, but apparently he wasn't. So you 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.760 can actually go up to it now and walk through it. 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:07.960 There's rooms like you got the restaurant in the bar, 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:12.760 then you've got your little rooms, kind of like a hotel. Frasier's. 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:22.320 It's called Frasier's Chateau Club and it's got the address. Wow, 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:25.560 we took the address and just put it into Google Maps, 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:28.640 and the chateau seems to be located just south of 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:32.040 piked In, kind of on the way to Portsmith. It's 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:34.240 way up on the top of this mountain looking over 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:38.320 Lake Frasier, which is actually sometimes referred to as Big 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:41.800 Bear Lake, but the technical name is Lake Frasier, hence 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:45.320 the name Frasier Chateau. We heard a lot about in 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:48.040 the early days that you know, the Rodents would go 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:50.600 to Big Bear Lake in the summertime to go off 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:54.480 roading and tubing, and it was just a place to 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:57.320 go as a family for fun. But when you look 0:07:57.320 --> 0:07:59.800 at this photo, you see at the very very top 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:04.760 there's almost this fancy place kind of looking over the 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.360 whole thing and stuff. Which I find interesting is if 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:09.040 you look at this map which we'll post on our 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:13.240 Instagram at kat Underscore Studios, there's almost this like back 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:16.720 road that goes up to it that almost looks like 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:19.920 a place where you could drive a four wheeler, which 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:23.080 does remind me of how Angie described this place. It 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:25.760 makes you wonder what was going up and down this road, 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:29.400 like who was transporting what to the chateau from town. 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:34.679 We found out that it was for sale in two 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:36.760 thousand and one and it was owned by a man 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:39.319 named Richard Fraser Jr. He then passed it on to 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.719 Richard Fraser the Third in the early nineties. We were 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:46.200 also able to track down some videos of the chateau 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:49.640 in its heyday. What you see are people enjoying the 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:52.040 better things of life. They're having drinks, they're watching the 0:08:52.120 --> 0:09:02.240 Kentucky Derby. We were only going to win about a 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:08.760 million dollars. The audio is a little hard to decipher, 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:11.920 but what you just heard was one man saying bring 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:15.520 it on home to Daddy, followed by another saying we 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.280 were only going to win about a million dollars. Men 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:22.960 are wearing tuxedos and they're gambling and drinking champagne. You know, 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.600 it looks like one of those very fancy, upscale country 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.319 clubs you would see in the movies. Everybody is living 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:31.920 their best possible life. Makes you wonder what was happening 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:35.240 up at the chateau. What's being alleged is that this 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:40.000 chateau sort of serves as the center of yet another 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:45.800 backstory in the massacre that could be connected. And again 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:48.920 we're kind of learning about this real time also. But 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:52.520 it's interesting when things that were considered rumor in previous 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:55.400 seasons and we couldn't talk about it really now we're 0:09:55.440 --> 0:10:00.120 all shaping up to be a matter of fact. And 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.120 the more people we speak to, the connective tissue becomes 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.679 clearer and clearer. We were also able to uncover that 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:09.880 Moran represented the owners of the chateau in a court 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:11.880 case where they had an issue with a bank loan. 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:14.960 So there's now no doubt that Michael Moran was tied 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:19.840 to Frasier Chateau in some capacity. It just ties together 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:23.640 all of these players that we've been talking about, Michael Moran, 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:27.160 Frasier Chateau, the cops, the Wagners, the Rodents, They're all 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:29.560 in the same world in ways that we never imagined. 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:37.080 We've also found road in connections to the chateau. We've 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.559 been told that Chris Senior might have been doing construction there, 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:42.640 and it's confirmed that Frankie and Chris Junior worked there 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:46.000 because they listed as their place of employment on Facebook, 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:52.360 so there was an obvious connection there for work. And 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.800 we have heard that Chris Senior was also a craftsmanoon 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:58.840 used to do construction on a lot of patios in 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:02.840 and around the area, and it's been speculated that perhaps 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:08.040 he overheard something or saw some sort of nefarious behavior 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:12.559 at the chateau and that people were afraid he was 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:16.400 going to snitch and maybe that's a factor into the massacre. 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:20.360 But again we do know, it's definitely playing a role, 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:24.040 and quickly these dots are getting connected. Worth noting, though, 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:27.000 that none of our research would suggest that any of 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.600 the Rodents were connected to anything nefarious at Big bear Lake. 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.400 We called and confirmed with Big Bear Lake workers that 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:42.880 the chateau is now closed. We've learned that Big Bear 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:46.200 Lake bought over three hundred acres of land fifteen years ago, 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:50.440 which included the chateau. The current owners have nothing to 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:54.200 do with the chateau. According to the person we spoke 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:57.000 with who has worked at Big Bear Lake for fifteen years, 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:00.720 thieves who rode around on ATVs would come in and 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:04.760 have completely destroyed what was left of the property. This 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:08.120 same worker knew the Rodents and confirmed the work they 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:11.360 did there. The whole thing is now boarded up, and 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:14.680 Big Bear Lake's current owner actually plans on bulldozing the 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:19.360 whole building in a few weeks. The Rodent men all 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:21.760 working at Big Bear Lake just speaks to what we've 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:23.760 heard about them before, which is that they're all really 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.280 hard workers and good with their hands. Before the murders, 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.800 Chris Roden Senior worked as a carpenter and Dana Roden 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:34.439 was working full time, sometimes even double time as a nurse. 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:39.120 The whole ring of people, the powers that be that 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.520 are not doing what they should be doing, and that's 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:47.200 why families in Pike County feel like we're forgotten. In 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:49.840 the early two thousands, most of the big companies in 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.960 charge of plants and mills in the area left Pike County, 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.600 and drug abuse was up at the time of the murders. 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:01.960 The unemployment rate was also at eight point six percent, 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:10.160 compared to five point one percent nationwide. You know, you've 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:14.720 got people that are hard working people segre marijuana. It's 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:19.640 so bizarre to people outside, you know, the rural communities 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:24.240 that don't know the goings on. As reported at the 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:27.199 time of the murders, the Rodents had two hundred marijuana 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:30.320 plants with a street value of about half a million dollars. 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.400 I thought the cartel did it. I really did. And 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:38.559 I've talked to people in the area who said they 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:42.680 swear the cartal did it. Cartel activity in the area 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:47.400 is documented. In twenty ten, a large marijuana seizure just 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:50.319 fifteen miles west of piked In was suspected of being 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:57.040 linked to the Sinaloa cartel. Two years later, another pot 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:00.360 buzz yielded solid evidence of a campsite set by the 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:06.320 Mexican nationals. According to a Wagner family insider, it's been 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:09.720 going on for years and there are rumors that the 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:14.800 Wagners were wrapped up in it as well. Again, these 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:17.400 are simply rumors about the Wagners being involved in the 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.840 cartel that we have heard throughout the years. However, it 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:25.000 seems likely that any potential connections between them were also investigated. 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:30.080 Maybe they got mixed up with the cartel. Bol I 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:32.720 live in Chill Coffee and whenever you get down through Waverley, 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:36.160 they're a big horse table and my whole wife And 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.840 when I say it was legit, cartel lived there, my 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:43.080 mom and dies at several electric drops form and they 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:45.880 would even tell you that the horses that they ship 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.560 didn't had drugs in them. And that's why I said 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:53.120 it was so close too. Then she's referring to the 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:57.360 cartel location being close to Frederica and George Wagner Senior's 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:03.320 horse farm. Orge Wagner Senior, which was Billy's father, was 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:06.920 a drug dealer too, and he would put bags of 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:11.600 dope and these female horses of vaginas and ship them 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:16.080 that's FUNDI transported as drugs. It was right in the 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:18.800 back door. You know what about thee what live at 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.720 your Bible and the horses. It threw me into that thing, 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.520 thinking of the horses with Freddie and them with horses, 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:27.720 that Mexicans shipping the horses. You know, maybe there was 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:32.800 something here. I need to point out that we were 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:37.600 unable to locate any records to support these allegations. Pike 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:42.600 Din's location suits cartel operations in the Midwest perfectly. There's 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:45.880 a lot of cartel in that area, and they grow 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:48.080 in the hills. You know, it's re fertile ground, and 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:52.200 it's you know, it's easy to hide. It's also a 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:56.520 known trafficking route in southern Ohio. US through twenty three 0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:01.040 runs from the state line in Portsmouth north through Piken, Columbus, 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:05.800 and eventually into Michigan. But before nineteen twenty six, Portsmouth 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:11.160 was the southern terminus of the road. Three years later 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:13.720 it was expanded, eventually running all the way to the 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:18.720 Atlantic Ocean in Jacksonville, Florida. Now, the two lane divided 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:23.160 expressway is outdated. Interstate seventy five gets most of the 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:27.280 legitimate north south traffic in the area, which makes twenty 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:29.960 three the preferred route of those trying to keep a 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:36.080 low profile. Maybe it was some crazy thing like that, 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:37.840 because you know who else would go in and kill 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:41.680 a Holdian family. It just seems to me that it 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:47.640 was so personal the murders were to me, especially the 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:51.680 way Christnior was killed, just how many times he was shot, 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:55.280 Because if you're just doing this to get kustie of 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:57.520 a child, you're just going to go in shoot the 0:16:57.600 --> 0:16:59.800 person one time, a couple of times and then lead 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:01.880 not do what they did to him. When I read 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:04.639 the autopsy, I mean he was shot in its extremity 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:08.760 to torso his head. That's overkilled and to me that's anger. 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:15.320 The autopsies if you really look at them, if you 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:19.919 really read between the lines and where the paragraphs leading 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:24.000 up to the redactions, if you really look at it 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:28.959 and go, oh, okay, that's what's redacted. There was marks 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:32.080 in the groin area, you know, wounds in the groin area. 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:39.119 Chris Senior and Frankie Rodent, it appears that they're janitalia 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:46.400 had been removed. They were tortured, they were mutilated. There 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:51.560 was marks where not a typical knife would have been used. 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:55.080 There was a lot of talk about do you know 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:58.960 what a gaff is. A gaff is a weapon that's 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:07.439 used by the cartel. Okay, what's it looked like? It 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:13.000 has like a claw with sharp blades, like Edward scissorhand. 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:17.480 You think the redacted sections of the autopsy point to 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:23.000 that type of weapon maybe being used. Yes, we're going 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:25.200 to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:38.440 The brutality of the Mexican cartel is widely known. It's 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.480 possible all the power brokers in the orbit of the 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:44.720 piked and massacre we're dealing with something larger and even 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:50.800 more terrifying than what they had created themselves. Even Sheriff Frieder, 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:53.000 who was at the time in charge of enforcing the 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:56.399 law in his dark corner of Ohio, was possibly in 0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:01.560 over his head. Here's Jeff talking about the possibilities of 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:05.120 what happened the night of April twenty first, twenty sixteen. 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:08.760 It all comes full circle back to Reader. When we 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.200 initially got involved in the case, the theory out there 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:13.800 was that it was the cartel, and that theory was 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:15.720 put out there by Reader very early on in the 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:19.240 investigation and is what people thought happened for quite some time. 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:24.960 I remember talking with Rodin, Kenny's daughter, and this was 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.040 maybe a week or so after the murders happened, and 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:32.080 it was when Charlie went on TV to do a 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:36.720 pressor and said that he didn't know the Rodent And 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:39.240 I remember Kinder looking at me and saying, I don't 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:42.359 know why he's saying he doesn't know us. He knows 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:46.440 who we are. I know she just went through hell. 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:47.760 And I didn't want to say, well, how does he 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.880 know you? Or whatever you know, but I always kept 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:53.679 that in the back of my mind, like it upset 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:58.640 her that he said he didn't know them. Imagine them 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:02.879 sitting around a table eaten supper, plotting to kill eight people. 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:12.320 It's just hard to grasp. Was there a larger and 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:15.600 much more dangerous element pulling the strings from a distance 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:18.960 with threats against the Wagner family and others in Piketon. 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:22.439 And I'm just theorizing, but it's been said to me 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:27.280 it's possible that Jake is lying because there's death threats 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.680 in some way against them behind bars, which would kind 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:35.560 of point to a larger issue, whether that's the marijuana 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:39.680 operation or some fishy dealings, or maybe Billy was in 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:44.000 other trouble and this was gonna be his way out. 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:48.000 I think they're involved, but I believe the cartel was 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:52.280 involved with them. It was too horrendous and happened too 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:56.320 fast for everything to go down in a time frame 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:59.600 that it supposedly went down in for having just two 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:02.919 people to do it, you know what I mean. The 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:06.000 cartel zoomed in on him, and they let it be 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:10.000 known that if you don't take a plea, we will 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:13.080 kill your family, will kill the rest of your family. 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:18.359 You know, they're wielding this proverbial sword over their heads 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:21.880 because they are involved. I mean, out of nowhere, he 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:29.960 took a plea. I do not think Jake could stand 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:33.640 over Hannah and shoot her, especially with a baby next 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:41.680 to her. Something is off, Something is not right. It's 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:44.800 important to note that George the fourth Wagner and his father, 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:48.840 Billy Wagner have both pleaded not guilty and are presumed innocent. 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:53.000 No one except for the people who will appear in 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:57.840 court next month, knows the real truth. It seems like 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:01.520 there are basically three ways this could play out. It's either, 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:07.480 as their plea deals would suggest, Jake Wagner has confessed 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:11.360 to killing five. Who are those five? We do not know. 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:16.320 That would suggest that either Billy or George are responsible 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:20.360 for the remaining three. Many accounts would suggest that George 0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:23.239 was not a trigger puller, and that seems to be 0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:26.520 their first line of defense. So what we know for 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:28.960 a fact is that George Wagner's trial is set to 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:32.040 start August twenty nine. We're going to learn a lot 0:22:32.119 --> 0:22:34.520 more when George's trial actually begins and we learn more 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:37.439 about the prosecution's case, but for right now, all we 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:40.280 can do is sort of guess what might happen, And 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:43.399 what's being reported so far is that Angela Wagner was 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:46.639 not present at the time of the murders. Jake Wagner 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:49.600 has confessed to committing five, and we can sort of 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:52.520 surmise that because George Wagner saying he didn't kill anyone, 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:55.720 that Billy Wagner must have killed the other three. This 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:58.680 theory plays well into what the plea deals have said 0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:01.439 so far, but there are still so many other theories 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:06.600 to impact. Is it possible that there's another layer to 0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:11.280 this altogether, and the Wagners were in fact tied into 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:18.520 something nefarious, Whether that's the cartel or not, and there 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:22.520 was this potential of a custody battle to heat up. 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:25.720 And on top of that, there does seem to be 0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:30.040 corruption behind the scenes. We know that. So at this 0:23:30.160 --> 0:23:32.840 point there's been so many pieces of the puzzle held 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:36.280 closed by the prosecution in the defense for obvious reasons. 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:39.840 They want to keep their case sacred. But that's about 0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:47.800 to change once George's trial starts. It shapes everything because 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:52.199 you'd have to imagine that Billy Wagner's trial is just 0:23:52.320 --> 0:23:59.200 behind it and their stories all better match, or is 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:05.840 there an entire news story that's evolving real time. We're 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:10.399 likely going to pause just for a stretch so we 0:24:10.480 --> 0:24:13.399 can have jury's selection happen and really be with you 0:24:13.440 --> 0:24:15.679 when things start to heat up. I think there's a 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:24.960 curveball coming. Whether or not Angela Wagner was present at 0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:27.960 any or all of the Road family houses on the 0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:31.119 night of the murders has been a huge point of contention. 0:24:32.240 --> 0:24:36.280 Added confusion is that we've read conflicting reports based on 0:24:36.520 --> 0:24:38.840 what was reported on and what we've seen in court. 0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:42.600 What we've understood and have reported on this podcast that 0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:46.920 Angela was at home babysitting the night of the murders. However, 0:24:47.000 --> 0:24:49.960 in looking back one more time through court transcripts, we 0:24:50.040 --> 0:24:52.960 found conflicting reports that said Angela had moved two of 0:24:52.960 --> 0:24:57.440 the bodies. To shed some light on this, we spoke 0:24:57.480 --> 0:25:01.800 to Fox nineteen legal analyst Mike Allen, and she pled 0:25:01.840 --> 0:25:06.800 to conspiracy to commit aggravated murder, which indicates to me 0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:09.479 that she was not there and didn't participate in it. 0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:14.560 Also several counts of aggravated burglary. Now that's trespassing in 0:25:14.680 --> 0:25:20.360 an occupied structure or a structure that could be occupied. 0:25:20.760 --> 0:25:26.359 But the real thing here is tampering with evidence. I 0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:30.240 checked with Mike Shell. He's a reporter here at Fox nineteen. 0:25:30.960 --> 0:25:33.920 He's been following this thing closer than anyone. I said, 0:25:34.240 --> 0:25:39.240 is there any indication that Angela could participate in the homicide? 0:25:39.960 --> 0:25:43.879 And he said no. His understanding was that she was 0:25:44.080 --> 0:25:48.000 at home with a baby or baby. So I think 0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:51.399 the gist of what she pled to is that she 0:25:51.600 --> 0:25:56.359 was not there when it happened, but conspired before the fact. 0:25:58.440 --> 0:26:01.359 I don't know why they're so close mouth about this, 0:26:01.560 --> 0:26:08.639 but that would be my speculation. You mentioned the dumping 0:26:08.680 --> 0:26:12.679 tight lips. Is that standard or not standard? What do 0:26:12.720 --> 0:26:15.080 you make of the prosecution not releasing a lot of information. 0:26:15.840 --> 0:26:17.480 You know, they want to keep a lid on it 0:26:17.600 --> 0:26:20.440 because it's just got so many tentacles and goes in 0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:24.280 so many different directions, and I think they're probably inundated 0:26:24.280 --> 0:26:28.560 with media request. But I will say this, it's highly unusual. 0:26:28.960 --> 0:26:31.040 As a matter of fact, I don't ever remember a 0:26:31.040 --> 0:26:34.480