1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: To me, it maybe had something to do with that 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: one little girl. But to me, there's a bigger read. 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:10,399 Speaker 1: You can't tell me. The day won't be in. He 4 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: killed eight people over one child. It's just so bizarre 5 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: that there's so many twists and turns. It's mind boggling, 6 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: and it's like a puzzle trying to put the pieces together. 7 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: It's just got so many tentacles and goes in so 8 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: many different directions. Nobody has said anything other than he 9 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: was shy and in love with Hannah Road. Literally it 10 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: love like something is off. This is the Piked massacre 11 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: returned to Pike County season three, episode ten, House on 12 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: a Hill. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie 13 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. In researching this story, 14 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: we sometimes find ourselves mired in details that lead to 15 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 1: dead ends. In this episode, before George Wagner the fourth Trial, 16 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: we're stepping back to take an eagle life view on 17 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: the dark power dynamics at play in southern Ohio. We 18 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: have uncovered some shocking new theories about what might have 19 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: led to the grizzly murders of the eight members of 20 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: the Rodent family. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. After following the 21 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: story for years, you really start to see that there 22 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: are sort of two piked in's. In one piked in 23 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 1: there are people simply trying to live, work and put 24 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: food on the table for their family. And on the 25 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: other hands, there's a lot of people in power who 26 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: are misusing it. And quite a few of these individuals 27 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: have used their power for personal gain period, often with 28 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: brutal consequences for those who get caught in the crossfire. 29 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: No one exemplifies this more than Michael Moran, who we 30 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: know is a local Portsmouth lawyer who was accused of 31 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: doing all sorts of heinous things. As we've discussed in 32 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: previous episodes, Michael Moran preyed upon vulnerable female clients, often 33 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,959 Speaker 1: prostitutes and drug users. He lured them in with inexpensive 34 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: legal representation, then trapped him into sexual slavery and worse. 35 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: His victims were people like Megan Lancaster who went missing 36 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen. Aungie Montgomery knew her and her sister 37 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: in law, Katie, who spent years trying to find Megan. 38 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: Here's Angie. The way Katie described Megan to me. She 39 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: looked at me and she was like, I knew she 40 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: would find a way to get a whole subody. I 41 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: knew she would. That's what I always you know, it 42 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: was in the back of her mind. I knew she 43 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: would find a way to say something to somebody. During 44 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: her tireless crusade to find out what happened to Megan, 45 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: Katie Lancaster also fell victim to the pressures of life 46 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: in Pike County. I'm going to be honest with you, 47 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: she was easy. I didn't know it. Her and her 48 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: husband went through hell right before she died. And she 49 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: also told me that the court told her to stop 50 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: with her Megan's campaign. She was found in an area 51 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: in Portsmouth it's known for drug dally and she was 52 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: found in a house having apparently overdosed. Right that's the 53 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 1: same area that Moran's office was in, right right up 54 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: the road. Here's Jeff speaking with Sophie, an acquaintance of 55 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: the Wagner family. We spoke with her in an earlier episode, 56 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: but as a reminder, she's the one who alerted us 57 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: to ties between Michael Moran and Angela Wagner's father, Pug Carter. 58 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: It's not a surprise to me that her dad had 59 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: him as a lawyer. That was news to me. How 60 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: did you find that out? You probably send the link 61 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: to it. We talked about Michael Moran on the podcast, 62 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: but kind of as an outlier. It just spoke to 63 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: crimes that were happening in the community. But this really 64 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: connects Michael Moran to the Wagner family. Yes, and Angie 65 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: was always really close with her dad. From what I 66 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: remember is that there was like an undercover seeing where 67 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: the police were going to his house and purchasing and 68 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: selling drugs. So actual drug list is how he got caught. 69 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: Another local sleuth who goes by j J, confirms the story. 70 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: Everybody there in that little town of South Webster knew 71 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 1: what he was doing. I mean, he was their supplier. 72 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: Is it just mainly pot now we're talking about or 73 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: party drugs like heroin and cocaine, oxy cod own. He 74 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: even did time in prison for his drug dealings. He 75 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: was a want to be gangster, if you will. So 76 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: that's what she grew up in, That's what she was 77 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: familiar with. Billy Wagner's aunts lived across the street from 78 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: the cars. That's how they had to have met. For 79 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: a defense lawyer like Michael Moran, Pug Carter was probably 80 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: a legitimate source of study income, but he also recognized 81 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: another possible stream of cash from his less well off 82 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: female clients. Michael Moran exploited the power dynamic ruthlessly, often 83 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: abusing the women he lured in and calling them the 84 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: product he turned around and sold their services right back 85 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 1: to the most powerful and Pike County. It's rumored that 86 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: some of this took place in a house on a 87 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: hill just south of Piketon. Here's Stephanie speaking with Angie Montgomery. 88 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: This is just, you know, frankly, rumor and speculation that 89 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: there's a place that was this power slash bar, and officials, 90 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: people that worked for the local police would go there 91 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: for drinks, and sometimes there were girls there and maybe 92 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: not such great behavior would happen behind closed doors. Yes, 93 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: and if you give me two seconds, I'll give you 94 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: the name of the place. It's on top of Big 95 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 1: Beer Lake. It's just like a it's like a resort. 96 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: I was told that there was some sort of a 97 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: security PINpad that you could go into that club at anytime. 98 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: I shouldn't call it a club like a bar anytime 99 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: if you had a key. Yes, it's like you just 100 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: take this place and just drop it in the middle, 101 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: and it lands on top of this mountain because you 102 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 1: have to have four rollers to get up to it. Actually, 103 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 1: I dated a police officer years ago. I remember me 104 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: and whom We're driving down one or four and we 105 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: drove past Big Beer Lake. I remember whom telling me 106 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: that's where all the cops go to get chicks and 107 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: do illegal stuff. And this was in like nineteen ninety nine. 108 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: He told me this, and I thought he was blowing 109 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: smoke at my ass, but apparently he wasn't. So you 110 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: can actually go up to it now and walk through it. 111 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: There's rooms like you got the restaurant in the bar, 112 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: then you've got your little rooms, kind of like a hotel. Frasier's. 113 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: It's called Frasier's Chateau Club and it's got the address. Wow, 114 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: we took the address and just put it into Google Maps, 115 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: and the chateau seems to be located just south of 116 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: piked In, kind of on the way to Portsmith. It's 117 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: way up on the top of this mountain looking over 118 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: Lake Frasier, which is actually sometimes referred to as Big 119 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: Bear Lake, but the technical name is Lake Frasier, hence 120 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: the name Frasier Chateau. We heard a lot about in 121 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: the early days that you know, the Rodents would go 122 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: to Big Bear Lake in the summertime to go off 123 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: roading and tubing, and it was just a place to 124 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: go as a family for fun. But when you look 125 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: at this photo, you see at the very very top 126 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: there's almost this fancy place kind of looking over the 127 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: whole thing and stuff. Which I find interesting is if 128 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: you look at this map which we'll post on our 129 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: Instagram at kat Underscore Studios, there's almost this like back 130 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: road that goes up to it that almost looks like 131 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: a place where you could drive a four wheeler, which 132 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: does remind me of how Angie described this place. It 133 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: makes you wonder what was going up and down this road, 134 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: like who was transporting what to the chateau from town. 135 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 1: We found out that it was for sale in two 136 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: thousand and one and it was owned by a man 137 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 1: named Richard Fraser Jr. He then passed it on to 138 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,719 Speaker 1: Richard Fraser the Third in the early nineties. We were 139 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: also able to track down some videos of the chateau 140 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: in its heyday. What you see are people enjoying the 141 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: better things of life. They're having drinks, they're watching the 142 00:08:52,120 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: Kentucky Derby. We were only going to win about a 143 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: million dollars. The audio is a little hard to decipher, 144 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: but what you just heard was one man saying bring 145 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: it on home to Daddy, followed by another saying we 146 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: were only going to win about a million dollars. Men 147 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: are wearing tuxedos and they're gambling and drinking champagne. You know, 148 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: it looks like one of those very fancy, upscale country 149 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 1: clubs you would see in the movies. Everybody is living 150 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: their best possible life. Makes you wonder what was happening 151 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: up at the chateau. What's being alleged is that this 152 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: chateau sort of serves as the center of yet another 153 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: backstory in the massacre that could be connected. And again 154 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: we're kind of learning about this real time also. But 155 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: it's interesting when things that were considered rumor in previous 156 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: seasons and we couldn't talk about it really now we're 157 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: all shaping up to be a matter of fact. And 158 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: the more people we speak to, the connective tissue becomes 159 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 1: clearer and clearer. We were also able to uncover that 160 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: Moran represented the owners of the chateau in a court 161 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: case where they had an issue with a bank loan. 162 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 1: So there's now no doubt that Michael Moran was tied 163 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: to Frasier Chateau in some capacity. It just ties together 164 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: all of these players that we've been talking about, Michael Moran, 165 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: Frasier Chateau, the cops, the Wagners, the Rodents, They're all 166 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: in the same world in ways that we never imagined. 167 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: We've also found road in connections to the chateau. We've 168 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 1: been told that Chris Senior might have been doing construction there, 169 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: and it's confirmed that Frankie and Chris Junior worked there 170 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: because they listed as their place of employment on Facebook, 171 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: so there was an obvious connection there for work. And 172 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: we have heard that Chris Senior was also a craftsmanoon 173 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: used to do construction on a lot of patios in 174 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: and around the area, and it's been speculated that perhaps 175 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: he overheard something or saw some sort of nefarious behavior 176 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 1: at the chateau and that people were afraid he was 177 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: going to snitch and maybe that's a factor into the massacre. 178 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: But again we do know, it's definitely playing a role, 179 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: and quickly these dots are getting connected. Worth noting, though, 180 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: that none of our research would suggest that any of 181 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: the Rodents were connected to anything nefarious at Big bear Lake. 182 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: We called and confirmed with Big Bear Lake workers that 183 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: the chateau is now closed. We've learned that Big Bear 184 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: Lake bought over three hundred acres of land fifteen years ago, 185 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: which included the chateau. The current owners have nothing to 186 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: do with the chateau. According to the person we spoke 187 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: with who has worked at Big Bear Lake for fifteen years, 188 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: thieves who rode around on ATVs would come in and 189 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: have completely destroyed what was left of the property. This 190 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: same worker knew the Rodents and confirmed the work they 191 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: did there. The whole thing is now boarded up, and 192 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: Big Bear Lake's current owner actually plans on bulldozing the 193 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: whole building in a few weeks. The Rodent men all 194 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: working at Big Bear Lake just speaks to what we've 195 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: heard about them before, which is that they're all really 196 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: hard workers and good with their hands. Before the murders, 197 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: Chris Roden Senior worked as a carpenter and Dana Roden 198 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 1: was working full time, sometimes even double time as a nurse. 199 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: The whole ring of people, the powers that be that 200 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: are not doing what they should be doing, and that's 201 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: why families in Pike County feel like we're forgotten. In 202 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: the early two thousands, most of the big companies in 203 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: charge of plants and mills in the area left Pike County, 204 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: and drug abuse was up at the time of the murders. 205 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: The unemployment rate was also at eight point six percent, 206 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: compared to five point one percent nationwide. You know, you've 207 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: got people that are hard working people segre marijuana. It's 208 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: so bizarre to people outside, you know, the rural communities 209 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: that don't know the goings on. As reported at the 210 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 1: time of the murders, the Rodents had two hundred marijuana 211 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: plants with a street value of about half a million dollars. 212 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: I thought the cartel did it. I really did. And 213 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 1: I've talked to people in the area who said they 214 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 1: swear the cartal did it. Cartel activity in the area 215 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: is documented. In twenty ten, a large marijuana seizure just 216 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 1: fifteen miles west of piked In was suspected of being 217 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: linked to the Sinaloa cartel. Two years later, another pot 218 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: buzz yielded solid evidence of a campsite set by the 219 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: Mexican nationals. According to a Wagner family insider, it's been 220 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: going on for years and there are rumors that the 221 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: Wagners were wrapped up in it as well. Again, these 222 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: are simply rumors about the Wagners being involved in the 223 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: cartel that we have heard throughout the years. However, it 224 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: seems likely that any potential connections between them were also investigated. 225 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: Maybe they got mixed up with the cartel. Bol I 226 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: live in Chill Coffee and whenever you get down through Waverley, 227 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: they're a big horse table and my whole wife And 228 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: when I say it was legit, cartel lived there, my 229 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: mom and dies at several electric drops form and they 230 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: would even tell you that the horses that they ship 231 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: didn't had drugs in them. And that's why I said 232 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: it was so close too. Then she's referring to the 233 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: cartel location being close to Frederica and George Wagner Senior's 234 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: horse farm. Orge Wagner Senior, which was Billy's father, was 235 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: a drug dealer too, and he would put bags of 236 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: dope and these female horses of vaginas and ship them 237 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: that's FUNDI transported as drugs. It was right in the 238 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: back door. You know what about thee what live at 239 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: your Bible and the horses. It threw me into that thing, 240 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: thinking of the horses with Freddie and them with horses, 241 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: that Mexicans shipping the horses. You know, maybe there was 242 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: something here. I need to point out that we were 243 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: unable to locate any records to support these allegations. Pike 244 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: Din's location suits cartel operations in the Midwest perfectly. There's 245 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: a lot of cartel in that area, and they grow 246 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: in the hills. You know, it's re fertile ground, and 247 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: it's you know, it's easy to hide. It's also a 248 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: known trafficking route in southern Ohio. US through twenty three 249 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: runs from the state line in Portsmouth north through Piken, Columbus, 250 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: and eventually into Michigan. But before nineteen twenty six, Portsmouth 251 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: was the southern terminus of the road. Three years later 252 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: it was expanded, eventually running all the way to the 253 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: Atlantic Ocean in Jacksonville, Florida. Now, the two lane divided 254 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: expressway is outdated. Interstate seventy five gets most of the 255 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: legitimate north south traffic in the area, which makes twenty 256 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: three the preferred route of those trying to keep a 257 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: low profile. Maybe it was some crazy thing like that, 258 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: because you know who else would go in and kill 259 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: a Holdian family. It just seems to me that it 260 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: was so personal the murders were to me, especially the 261 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: way Christnior was killed, just how many times he was shot, 262 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: Because if you're just doing this to get kustie of 263 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: a child, you're just going to go in shoot the 264 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: person one time, a couple of times and then lead 265 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: not do what they did to him. When I read 266 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: the autopsy, I mean he was shot in its extremity 267 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: to torso his head. That's overkilled and to me that's anger. 268 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: The autopsies if you really look at them, if you 269 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: really read between the lines and where the paragraphs leading 270 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: up to the redactions, if you really look at it 271 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 1: and go, oh, okay, that's what's redacted. There was marks 272 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: in the groin area, you know, wounds in the groin area. 273 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: Chris Senior and Frankie Rodent, it appears that they're janitalia 274 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 1: had been removed. They were tortured, they were mutilated. There 275 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: was marks where not a typical knife would have been used. 276 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: There was a lot of talk about do you know 277 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: what a gaff is. A gaff is a weapon that's 278 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 1: used by the cartel. Okay, what's it looked like? It 279 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: has like a claw with sharp blades, like Edward scissorhand. 280 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: You think the redacted sections of the autopsy point to 281 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: that type of weapon maybe being used. Yes, we're going 282 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. 283 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: The brutality of the Mexican cartel is widely known. It's 284 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: possible all the power brokers in the orbit of the 285 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: piked and massacre we're dealing with something larger and even 286 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: more terrifying than what they had created themselves. Even Sheriff Frieder, 287 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: who was at the time in charge of enforcing the 288 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: law in his dark corner of Ohio, was possibly in 289 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: over his head. Here's Jeff talking about the possibilities of 290 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 1: what happened the night of April twenty first, twenty sixteen. 291 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: It all comes full circle back to Reader. When we 292 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: initially got involved in the case, the theory out there 293 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: was that it was the cartel, and that theory was 294 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: put out there by Reader very early on in the 295 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: investigation and is what people thought happened for quite some time. 296 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: I remember talking with Rodin, Kenny's daughter, and this was 297 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: maybe a week or so after the murders happened, and 298 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: it was when Charlie went on TV to do a 299 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: pressor and said that he didn't know the Rodent And 300 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: I remember Kinder looking at me and saying, I don't 301 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: know why he's saying he doesn't know us. He knows 302 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: who we are. I know she just went through hell. 303 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: And I didn't want to say, well, how does he 304 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 1: know you? Or whatever you know, but I always kept 305 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 1: that in the back of my mind, like it upset 306 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: her that he said he didn't know them. Imagine them 307 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: sitting around a table eaten supper, plotting to kill eight people. 308 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: It's just hard to grasp. Was there a larger and 309 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: much more dangerous element pulling the strings from a distance 310 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: with threats against the Wagner family and others in Piketon. 311 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 1: And I'm just theorizing, but it's been said to me 312 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: it's possible that Jake is lying because there's death threats 313 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 1: in some way against them behind bars, which would kind 314 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: of point to a larger issue, whether that's the marijuana 315 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: operation or some fishy dealings, or maybe Billy was in 316 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: other trouble and this was gonna be his way out. 317 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: I think they're involved, but I believe the cartel was 318 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: involved with them. It was too horrendous and happened too 319 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: fast for everything to go down in a time frame 320 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: that it supposedly went down in for having just two 321 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 1: people to do it, you know what I mean. The 322 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: cartel zoomed in on him, and they let it be 323 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: known that if you don't take a plea, we will 324 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: kill your family, will kill the rest of your family. 325 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: You know, they're wielding this proverbial sword over their heads 326 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 1: because they are involved. I mean, out of nowhere, he 327 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: took a plea. I do not think Jake could stand 328 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: over Hannah and shoot her, especially with a baby next 329 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: to her. Something is off, Something is not right. It's 330 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: important to note that George the fourth Wagner and his father, 331 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: Billy Wagner have both pleaded not guilty and are presumed innocent. 332 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: No one except for the people who will appear in 333 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: court next month, knows the real truth. It seems like 334 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: there are basically three ways this could play out. It's either, 335 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: as their plea deals would suggest, Jake Wagner has confessed 336 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,360 Speaker 1: to killing five. Who are those five? We do not know. 337 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: That would suggest that either Billy or George are responsible 338 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,360 Speaker 1: for the remaining three. Many accounts would suggest that George 339 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,239 Speaker 1: was not a trigger puller, and that seems to be 340 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: their first line of defense. So what we know for 341 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: a fact is that George Wagner's trial is set to 342 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: start August twenty nine. We're going to learn a lot 343 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: more when George's trial actually begins and we learn more 344 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 1: about the prosecution's case, but for right now, all we 345 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: can do is sort of guess what might happen, And 346 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: what's being reported so far is that Angela Wagner was 347 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: not present at the time of the murders. Jake Wagner 348 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: has confessed to committing five, and we can sort of 349 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: surmise that because George Wagner saying he didn't kill anyone, 350 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: that Billy Wagner must have killed the other three. This 351 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: theory plays well into what the plea deals have said 352 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 1: so far, but there are still so many other theories 353 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: to impact. Is it possible that there's another layer to 354 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: this altogether, and the Wagners were in fact tied into 355 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: something nefarious, Whether that's the cartel or not, and there 356 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: was this potential of a custody battle to heat up. 357 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: And on top of that, there does seem to be 358 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: corruption behind the scenes. We know that. So at this 359 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: point there's been so many pieces of the puzzle held 360 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: closed by the prosecution in the defense for obvious reasons. 361 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: They want to keep their case sacred. But that's about 362 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: to change once George's trial starts. It shapes everything because 363 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,199 Speaker 1: you'd have to imagine that Billy Wagner's trial is just 364 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: behind it and their stories all better match, or is 365 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: there an entire news story that's evolving real time. We're 366 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: likely going to pause just for a stretch so we 367 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: can have jury's selection happen and really be with you 368 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: when things start to heat up. I think there's a 369 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: curveball coming. Whether or not Angela Wagner was present at 370 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: any or all of the Road family houses on the 371 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 1: night of the murders has been a huge point of contention. 372 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: Added confusion is that we've read conflicting reports based on 373 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: what was reported on and what we've seen in court. 374 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: What we've understood and have reported on this podcast that 375 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: Angela was at home babysitting the night of the murders. However, 376 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: in looking back one more time through court transcripts, we 377 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: found conflicting reports that said Angela had moved two of 378 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: the bodies. To shed some light on this, we spoke 379 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: to Fox nineteen legal analyst Mike Allen, and she pled 380 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: to conspiracy to commit aggravated murder, which indicates to me 381 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,479 Speaker 1: that she was not there and didn't participate in it. 382 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: Also several counts of aggravated burglary. Now that's trespassing in 383 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:20,360 Speaker 1: an occupied structure or a structure that could be occupied. 384 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: But the real thing here is tampering with evidence. I 385 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: checked with Mike Shell. He's a reporter here at Fox nineteen. 386 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 1: He's been following this thing closer than anyone. I said, 387 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: is there any indication that Angela could participate in the homicide? 388 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: And he said no. His understanding was that she was 389 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: at home with a baby or baby. So I think 390 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: the gist of what she pled to is that she 391 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: was not there when it happened, but conspired before the fact. 392 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: I don't know why they're so close mouth about this, 393 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 1: but that would be my speculation. You mentioned the dumping 394 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: tight lips. Is that standard or not standard? What do 395 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: you make of the prosecution not releasing a lot of information. 396 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: You know, they want to keep a lid on it 397 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: because it's just got so many tentacles and goes in 398 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: so many different directions, and I think they're probably inundated 399 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: with media request. But I will say this, it's highly unusual. 400 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, I don't ever remember a 401 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: trial that I've been involved with, or that I've even 402 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: heard of here in Hamilton County where that's happened. I mean, 403 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,719 Speaker 1: the every document that's filed in the Clerk of Courts 404 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: office is put online unless the judge orders its sealed 405 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: and judge is here, and don't routinely do that unless 406 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: there's a legitimate law enforcement reason to do it. So 407 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: that's got me baff all. I tell you, I'm sure 408 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: would make everybody job easier. Let's stop here for another break. 409 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: Just when we think we know everything about this case 410 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: and things are wrapping up, we find something else out 411 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: and more information comes out, and it's clear that with 412 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: the Rodent and the Wagner case, that's really expect the unexpected. Ultimately, though, 413 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: eight members of the Rodent, Manly and Gilly family were 414 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: killed in their homes and I think I speak for 415 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: the entire team here at Katsy Studios, but getting to 416 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: the bottom of what happened is really in the name 417 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 1: of finding justice for the family. We hope to honor 418 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: not only the victims, but also the lives and the 419 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 1: people that they left behind. In speaking with their family members, 420 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: loved ones, and friends, it's really hard to move on 421 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: without knowing exactly what happened that night, and with the 422 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: trials finally coming up, the hope is that we can 423 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: at least give some sort of end to this horrible 424 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: chapter of their lives. While we wait for jury selection 425 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: and the trial of George the Fourth to begin, we 426 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: will continue to follow leads. We are humbled beyond measure 427 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: with what the community of Pike County and family members 428 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: have shared with us. For now, we leave you with 429 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: a message we've recently received from one of the surviving 430 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: road and family members. Just know that my family, they 431 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: were good people, loving and kind, very protective, would help 432 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: anyone in need. I believe in loyalty, hard work, and honesty. 433 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: If you did not honor these, then you were not anyone. Family, 434 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: the Bible and God. That's what they live for. Next 435 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: week's episode will be the final episode of this current season. 436 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: It's one we recorded live in front of an audience 437 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: at Crime Con in Las Vegas. After that, we'll pause 438 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: before the Wagner trials heat up. If you're enjoying The 439 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: Piked and Massacre, listen to our other hit series, Crazy 440 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: and Love. New episodes are every Tuesday. Wherever you get 441 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: your podcasts. For more information and case photos, follow us 442 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and Massacre 443 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Greeves, Scott 444 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: de Graw, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed 445 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: by Jeff Tui, music by Jared Aston, audio mixing by 446 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: Ken Novak. The Piked and Massacre is a production of 447 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit 448 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 449 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.