WEBVTT - How The Original Rogue Trader Rebuilt His Life 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:15.400 Hello and welcome to another episode of The Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:20.040 I'm Joe Wis and I'm Tracy Alloway. Tracy, I think 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:23.400 we might have our most famous guest ever on the episode. 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:30.160 No way. We've got some pretty like well known people before, yes, 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:35.040 but the person we are speaking to today was, for 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:38.320 at least for a brief period, one of the most 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:41.519 well known people in finance and the entire world, if 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:45.240 not actually one of the most well known people period, 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:49.440 like in any news. Yeah, yeah, you're probably right. Um, 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:51.320 do you want to go ahead and introduce who it 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:54.440 is or say who it is? Yes? I will, And 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:57.400 you know, I think one also might characterize I said 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:00.640 that he's are going to be our most famous guest ever. 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:04.800 Others would probably say he's our most infamous guest ever. 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:09.399 But our guests this week is Nick Leeson. He is 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:14.480 famous for being probably the biggest quote unquote rogue trader 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:18.920 of all time. In the early nineties, it was his 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:23.000 trades and the attempt to hide them that brought down 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:26.399 the UK's Bearings Bank, which was a bank that had 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:31.120 been around for over two hundred years. He then it 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:35.080 was discovered and he went to Singapore where he spent 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:39.800 years in a Singapore in prison, there's books about him, 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:42.960 there's a movie made about him, and then I think 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:48.000 like after all that ended, probably most people never really 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.760 thought about him again and probably have no idea what 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:56.840 he's been up to since. Right. But Nick Leeson is 0:01:56.880 --> 0:02:00.480 almost the original rogue trader of modern time. Right. You 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:04.120 mentioned there was a movie famously with you and McGregor 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:08.320 called Rogue Trader, and it was I'm sure it was 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:10.920 the first time that a lot of this stuff entered 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:15.720 the public consciousness. And as you mentioned, he wasn't Singapore 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:18.640 at Barings Bank when he did his rogue trades, and 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:21.320 then he ended up in jail, and then he sort 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:25.440 of mounted a comeback career. Right, Yeah, absolutely, And I 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:28.360 do think that point you made is really key that 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.000 from time to time, and I'm sure we'll have them 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:35.760 again in the future, a roague trader emerges someone who 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:40.720 went way beyond their risk limits at a financial institution, 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:44.000 tried to cover them up, failed to cover them up, 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:48.920 and then their behavior or their trades resulted in staggering losses. 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:52.600 But as you say, I do think that term probably 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:56.040 originated with Nick. I guess I'm not a pent sure 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:59.639 but that's something we can bring up, so without further ado, 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:04.240 Nick Leeson, thank you very much for joining our blocks. Um, 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:07.840 you're very welcome, looking forward to it. I guess i'll start. 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.720 Were you the first rogue trader? I? Look, I think 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.600 there were many before me. There probably weren't as many 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:18.680 that hit the headlines as as dramatically as I did. 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:21.880 I think, you know, road trader is one of those 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:24.800 things that well, roague trading is one of those things 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:27.320 that goes hand in hand with the market. People are 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:32.639 would often mismark their positions the the marketer market, or 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:36.280 they would trade outside of their positions. I was certainly 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:39.800 not the first person to do something like that at Bearings. 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:42.680 I was definitely the last one, and I probably took 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:45.880 it a little bit further than anybody had prior to that. 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:49.760 And I think obviously one of the reasons that I 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:53.520 am so well known for that road trading activity is 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:57.520 the catastrophic effects that my actions had in the In 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:01.960 the majority of cases, most road trading episodes of courts 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:06.720 early early, and whilst they do financial damage to the institution, 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:10.520 they don't usually result in the class of the bank. 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.240 So I I don't think we want to dwell too 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:17.400 much on your actual trading at Bearings, because at this 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:21.400 point it's been really really well covered. But for the 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:25.000 purposes of this podcast and the conversation that we're about 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:28.839 to have, what would you say about what you actually 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:33.479 did at Bearings? Was it a road trade? Was it authorized? 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:37.000 Was it as insidious as some people made it out 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:40.520 to be. I know, look, it was definitely road trading 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.440 I got myself into. I had an awful lot of 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:46.679 autonomy in Singapore. I could pretty much do what I wanted. 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:49.839 It was a remote subsidiary of the bank. There wasn't 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:54.120 a great deal of control or expertise that surrounded me 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.160 in terms of making sure that I was doing what 0:04:57.200 --> 0:04:59.839 I was supposed to be doing. So when things started 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:03.680 go wrong and I found myself in a difficult situation, 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:06.919 it was it was a lot easier than you would 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:10.360 expect it to be to hide those losses for a 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:13.360 period of time. Now, you know, I used to wake 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.760 up every day thinking that today would be the day 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:19.919 that somebody would expose what was going on. It was 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:22.560 only ever supposed to be a short term thing. Like 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:26.520 I said at the beginning, putting things into error or 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:30.479 putting trades into error accounts overnight was was a regular 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:36.720 occurrence appearings at the time. Um, obviously everybody appreciates that 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:40.080 the that it's not correct, but people used to do 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:42.760 it warehouse the trade overnight, I think it used to 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:46.200 be called and then the following day they'd usually closed 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:51.480 the trade out with hopefully no loss on the transaction. 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:54.839 So I just took it a little bit. Oh, I 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:57.400 took it a lot too far. I mean, my actions 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.800 were criminal. There were criminal from the beginning. Um, I 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:03.080 knew what I was doing, I knew that I shouldn't 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:06.680 be doing it. I continued, and you know I was 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:12.200 rightly punished for my activities during that period. So Nick, 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.800 what what would you say is the difference between a 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:20.760 good trader versus a rogue trader who's trying to book profits. 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:25.600 I don't know if there's if there's an easy differentiation. 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:29.040 I mean, obviously people, as everybody knows what their positions 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:31.200 limits are, they know what they're supposed to be doing. 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:35.200 People who work in the financial markets are intelligent. I 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:38.920 think when you find yourself in a difficult situation, you're 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:42.000 surrounded by people that can help you. And I just 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.040 thought that I could cope with the situation that I 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.680 was in. I didn't want to fail. That was one 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:49.680 of the biggest things for me. It was always about 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:53.120 succeeding and being successful, and I had a huge fear 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:57.520 of failure. So I didn't really communicate very well about 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.520 anything that was going on with me or anything that 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:04.360 was going on with me at that particular time. So 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:08.599 I mean, being disciplined, being diligent, being accurate in everything 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:11.760 that you do will separate those good traders from the 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:16.680 bad traders, but or from a rogue trader. But I 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:19.120 think one of my biggest sailants throughout that whole period. 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:21.880 And it's not something that you see or when you 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:24.800 go back to the nineties nineties, just the lack of 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:28.880 communication both from me as an individual, from the organization 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:33.040 and creating an environment where people could talk about their 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.960 failures and problems that they were facing within the organization 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:40.200 just really wasn't there. It was all about being successful, 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:44.560 competing against other people and competing against other banks, and 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:49.040 you know, only only the strong survive, and it wasn't 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:54.920 an environment that was necessarily conducive to to owning up 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:58.360 to what was going on. Number one, but also doing 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:01.440 a really simple thing, which have changed the pattern of 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.320 everything that I did and everything that happened to the bank. 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:08.760 And that's just simply asking for help and advice. And 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:11.280 you know, I was twenty five years old at the time. 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:15.080 I thought that I could cope with everything, and saw 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.240 asking for help and advice as a sign of weakness. 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:20.840 And you know, as you all know, banking back in 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:25.920 the nineties wasn't really about showing weakness. I think that's 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:30.000 really interesting how you characterize that just sort of the 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:34.600 culture of not being able to make mistakes, fail or 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:38.040 ask for any advice or help from anyone. I think 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:42.079 when people these days think about some of the risks 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:46.880 that trading or proprietary trading takes, that they see a 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:51.640 sort of inherent asymmetry in which a trader can capture 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:55.560 a bonus if they have big upside gains, but if 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:59.040 they don't have that, you know, they might lose their job. 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:03.240 But that's the worst. They don't have unlimited downstat in 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:05.240 the same way. Now, of course, every one ends up 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:07.520 in prison there it's different. But how much do you 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:13.120 think that asymmetry is part of the mentality versus just 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:16.600 what you describe sort of just it sounds a little different, 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:21.160 not quite that calculating. We're just sort of a very 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:25.680 sort of discouraging culture. Well, I mean, I think culture 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:29.800 conduct has a huge part to play, and regulators and 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.760 financial institutions are like spend a lot of time looking 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:37.160 at that these days. I mean, the short term ism 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:42.360 of the bonus culture obviously has a is a key 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:45.360 component of people's behavior, and I think a lot of 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:49.720 banks and financial institutions are changing the way that that happens. 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:53.480 But that bonus does create that short term approach to 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.600 what you're going to get paid in the very near future, 0:09:56.640 --> 0:10:01.640 and that does cultivate a risk, a risk appetite that 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:05.719 can be quite unhealthy. But you know, I think if 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:08.920 people I mean, like I look back over, I'm fifty 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:11.560 one years of eight now, so this is you know, 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:15.280 half of my lifetime ago as we currently stand, and 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:19.959 you know, creating an environment where people can talk and 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:23.960 and feel empowered enough to talk about things that they're 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:28.120 experiencing within the work environment, I think it's a crucial factor. 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:32.000 And if you can, if you can then reduce some 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:34.520 of that short termism that we see with the bonuses 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:36.240 that are paid with in the world, of banking that 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:40.200 it makes for a safer environment. You know, for me 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:43.559 at the time, I come from a very working class background. 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:46.679 I wanted to be successful. I wanted to do better 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:49.760 than my family members have done and and sort of 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:52.920 move along in terms of the way that that that 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.880 my life was progressing and being successful with the key 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.719 part of that. And you know, I trying to announciate 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:05.040 my failure or to try and confront it myself with 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:09.319 I'm not going to say it's impossible, because you sometimes 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:12.040 you just have to do it, but the you know, 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:14.839 it was just something that I didn't do. During that time. 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:18.360 Everybody sort of bowed into the first story that surrounded 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:22.320 me and it propelled everything forward. And you know, whenever 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:26.720 everybody else is then getting paid bonuses and everybody's looking 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:30.120 forward to their bonuses, it kind of sweeps you up 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:34.000 into this mouse that you that you kind of have 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:37.439 no control over. I know it's difficult to understand, but 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:41.160 everybody was buying into the success story that surrounded me 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:44.560 at the time. It's kind of amazing to me to 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.160 think that you were twenty five years old when when 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:52.120 all this was happening. Um, let's fast forward a little bit, 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:55.720 so you have the rogue trades at barings, they get 0:11:55.760 --> 0:12:01.319 discovered and eventually you go to jail for I think 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:05.600 it was three to four years. What happened once you 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:08.640 got out of jail, like, what was your initial thought 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:12.720 about what your future was and what was your plan 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:16.280 at that point? Yeah, well, I was sentenced to six 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:18.320 and a half years in jail, so you get a 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:20.959 standard one third remission. So I spent four years and 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:25.960 four months imprisoning Singapore. I had cancer whilst I was 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:30.600 imprisoning Singapore as well, so when I was released, the 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.440 first thing after four years in prison, you struggle to 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:36.360 make decisions a little bit. So I was very reliant 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:39.120 on my lawyer to help me through some of that 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:43.439 decision making process. I think something quite weird had happened 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:47.000 in the period that I was away in prison. Things 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:51.280 have changed in the UK and there was a infamy, celebrity, 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.400 whatever you want to call it, and certainly in my case, 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:58.120 it was infamy. People are intrigued by that, they're interested 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.120 by that. So I had a very short window in 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.559 terms of how I used to look at what I'd 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:05.760 be doing for the next three months, the next six 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.840 months or whatever. But then I started to get offers 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:12.720 to do TV programs to talk about what happened during 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:16.360 my time at Bearings. I've written a book before I 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:19.800 went to went to Singapore. I was originally arrested in 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:23.959 Germany and spent nine months there writing the book Road Trader, 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:26.880 that which which paid for my legal fees. I was 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.959 reasonably well off, but I wasn't wealthy enough to baby 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:33.320 the million and a half pound that it was gonna 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:37.640 cost to to mount a defense of my case. Not 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:40.120 that there was much of a defense because I played 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.400 guilty to everything, but it took nine months before I 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:46.720 went back to Singapore, so there was some heavy legal 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:48.800 fees that needed to be paid. So that was why 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:51.640 I wrote the book Road Trader whilst I was imprisoned 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:56.040 in Germany. But then when I was released, people invited 0:13:56.080 --> 0:14:00.480 me to do after dinner talks. That a dinner, so 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:04.400 after dinner speeches, and then that's moved on to a 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:10.400 lot of conference and keynote addresses. The events that range 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:16.920 from things that are very financial orientated, risk management compliance 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:21.320 organizations who are looking to promote their own products, through 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:25.760 to awards ceremonies which have nothing to do with the 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.520 world of finance at all. So you know, sometimes I 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:31.200 might host a dinner for a small group of people 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:36.040 who are a vulture or venture capitalists and are looking 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:39.760 to do some businesses, some key individuals. Other times it 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:43.560 can be a conference for upwards of five six hundred 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:47.600 people at an event where somebody wants to focus on 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.880 compliance and the things that can go wrong if you 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:56.240 don't manage to risk appropriately. So you didn't have you Obviously, 0:14:56.480 --> 0:15:01.800 people were intrigued by your experience, says, by what you learned, 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:05.240 and you've got a number of invited, as you said, 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:08.800 to speak. But in terms of rebuilding a life, you 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.040 have to figure there's only so much of a window 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.160 where people want to hear it before eventually the sort 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.840 of infamy faded. And what did you think then, did 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:21.400 you have some idea for like, okay, what is a career? 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:26.160 What is a full second life? Possibly look like it's weird, 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:28.200 So to be honest with you, I mean I do 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:32.400 I do as many after dinners that the conference events 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:34.880 right now as I did nineteen years ago when I 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:39.840 was released. So it's um, you know, and I suppose 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:43.960 things like recently the celebrity Big Brother program that I 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:46.640 was on in the UK kind of introduce you to 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:50.120 a younger generation. I mean, so I traveled the world 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:54.880 talking at events. So the mainstay for the last nineteen 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:58.480 years since I was released from prison has been after 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:04.360 dinner talking talking at conferences, and I probably do somewhere 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:08.480 between thirty and thirty five of those a year. Has 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:15.800 anyone from Bearings, people whose careers and jobs were lost 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:20.000 because the banks collapsed, people who lost a fortune, do 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:24.160 they ever express resent that you have had built this 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:29.040 career getting paid to speak on these subjects, getting flown 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:32.880 around the world, going on TV, becoming a sort of 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:38.720 mini celebrity, which is in a way arguably at their expense. 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.080 The only st answer is known. I've come across many 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:46.720 people who worked with Bearings during that time. I think 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:48.920 the thing and you find this with a lot of 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:52.080 speakers as well, as you go around the world and 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:54.680 you listen to them. If you tell lies, you get 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:58.560 things through. So I don't tell any lies. I told 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.600 enough of them years ago when I worked at the bank. 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:05.560 I fully accept that. So there's it's very honest and 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.560 candid that it doesn't paint me in a very good light. 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:13.040 So you know, I've met Peter Norris's the c IO 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:15.720 of Bearings at the time. I've met many of the 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:20.240 people who worked on the accet Liability Committee, several of 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:24.480 the main board members that were at Bearings, and no, 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:28.480 there's no resentment. You do get a bit of negativity 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.240 and it tends to come from people of a certain 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:35.920 age group who who work, you know, probably chartered accountants 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:38.879 and think that I, you know, sort to undermine the 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:42.320 banking system in the UK. And it's just a you know, 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.399 it's a story of errors and compounding those errors with 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:50.000 some really stupid decisions during that period which ultimately led 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:52.399 to the class of the bank. It's you know, it 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:56.639 was frauled my partner. It was definitely criminal and I 0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:59.959 was rightly punished for that. And you know, the punished 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:04.880 and is not just the sentence. You know, I developed 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:07.159 cancer whilst I was in prison, I was divorced by 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:09.800 my wife, and I've had to rebuild my life after that. 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:12.480 All of that is part of the punishment. And I 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:17.080 accept that everybody is entitled to their opinion, but so 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:21.359 am I, and you know I don't. I don't walk 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:24.840 around with my head bowed when you're when you're released 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:29.720 from posit prison as I was in, you have a choice. 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:33.160 You can you can hide away, or you can confront 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:36.640 what you did, try to understand it and then move 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:39.320 forward from that point. But if you if you really, 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:43.200 if you don't take yourself apart and really rip away 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:47.159 all the veneer and really look at yourself and understand 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.119 that you didn't like yourself and what you did and 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:53.919 how you've reacted in certain situations, that it's impossible to 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:56.600 build yourself back up. You know, you have to go 0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:59.280 through that process. So when you look at some of 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:03.000 these other roads trading episodes that exists around the world. 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:06.159 You know Jerome Curvy a being one, and he still 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:09.520 blames the bank quick to add a boy still has 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:13.920 lots of issues that he's campaigning against. But they did 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:17.679 wrong that the libel rates fixed. You know, people who 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.880 work in banks, as I've mentioned already, are are amongst 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:24.320 the most intelligent people in the world, and they know 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.600 when they're doing something wrong. So when a lawyer stands 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.159 up and tries to convince the court that there was 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:32.920 a pressure to perform and they there's lots of other 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:37.520 mitigating factors, that's rubbish because these people know what they're 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:40.719 doing they know they shouldn't be doing it, me included, 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:43.480 and for that reason, they need to be punished. And 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:46.359 if you don't punish people, you don't have deterrent, and 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:53.440 you know that what needs to happen. So I think 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:55.399 we do want to focus on, you know, how you 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:59.560 rebuild your life, um and your career. But since you 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:04.480 you up Jerome Curville and quickly at a bully at ubs, 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:07.040 and I'm just curious to get your take on this, like, 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.399 do you think there is a common thread that runs 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:14.880 through all these different modern rogue traders or is each 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:19.720 rogue trader scandal different in some way which I would 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:23.240 suggest that you know, for big financial institutions, there's actually 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:29.600 no one like silver bullet way of protecting themselves. I 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:31.280 think you hit the nail on the head there. I 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:34.119 don't think there is a silver bullet. I think you 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:36.600 can you can look up and people have done this 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:40.040 over the years. People have tried to look at personality 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:45.320 types and behavioral analytics and how people are behavior and 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.119 I think there's you know, there's very clear differences I 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:53.240 think between myself Curvial at a bully. There was there 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:56.240 was a guy the Gucci at di wo in New 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:59.639 York who was exposed around the same time as me 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:02.800 as well, so they've been during that period. There were 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:07.600 there were quite a large number. I think eventually the industry, 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:11.439 rather than trying to work out who potentially is going 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:13.680 to be then X road trader. It's about making sure 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:18.040 your controls and your systems are as robust and effective 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:21.919 as they possibly can be, and then you expose people 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:24.919 far sooner, which I believe is what happens within the 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:28.120 world of banking these days. There are still people who 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:32.600 post road trade, not on a daily basis, but it happens, 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:35.800 and people are just exposed a lot sooner and the 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:40.760 net effect of their actions is very, very limited. You know, 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:46.040 I think the day of these big excessive road trading 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:50.160 episode is a long way behind us because the industry 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:53.840 has changed. Compliance and mismanagement is better than it's ever been, 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:57.720 so I don't think there is a silver bullet. It 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:00.440 is about just making sure that you control as good 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:02.800 as they possibly can be, that you freshen them up. 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:05.040 You're not doing the same thing today that you were 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:08.399 two years ago, because if you are, you can guarantee 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:12.560 that somebody's circumventing those rules already. So it's about being 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:15.199 proactive and making sure that you're as good as you 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:18.159 possibly can be, and that's what everybody aspires to be. 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:21.159 It's just, you know, when you're looking at compliance and 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:25.600 risk management roles around the globe, not necessarily in any 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:30.560 particular location. You know, people don't like asking the difficult questions. 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:32.879 They don't like rocking the boat. They're getting paid a 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:36.240 big salary for for for not doing a great deal, 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:41.359 and maybe that's an incorrect characterization, but they don't want 0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:44.919 to rock the boat. You know, people need to ask 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:48.480 the difficult questions if you think, if you see something's 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:51.800 going wrong or you're worried about something, you need a 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:55.480 voice that's being heard, and banking over the years haven't 0:22:56.520 --> 0:22:59.520 and I'm not talking about the US or any particular location, 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:03.840 but so in the UK, banking hasn't encouraged that people 0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:08.119 who are a little bit dissonant or disruptive and you 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:12.760 have a voice, you know, talking about your speeches that 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:15.639 you gave and the lessons that you've learned. There are 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:21.240 a couple other episodes in your recent career that are interesting, 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:26.200 including for several years you were the head of a 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:30.040 a soccer team or a football club Galway United. How 0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:33.199 did that happen? How did you become the head of 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:37.600 a football team? Well, I mean it's a small The 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:40.280 football teams in Ireland are quite small, to be honest 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:43.959 with you. So the now I live in Galway and 0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:46.120 my wife said I was getting in a way at home, 0:23:46.560 --> 0:23:50.760 wanted me to go and do something. And but that's 0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:54.280 that's the genuine story. So I've been here for about 0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:58.080 fifteen years since I've remarried, and you know, there's a 0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:02.720 lot of big American buyers pharmacy companies around here, from 0:24:02.760 --> 0:24:05.960 Shannon down to Galway, and but they're not things that 0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:08.320 you know, that that I would be able to turn 0:24:08.359 --> 0:24:11.800 my hand to. So apart from working in financial market, 0:24:11.920 --> 0:24:15.840 the only other real interest that I've had is football. 0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:18.080 So when somebody asked me to get involved with the 0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:20.359 football club, I did, and you know it was a 0:24:20.400 --> 0:24:23.600 bit of fundraising at first, and then I moved on 0:24:23.640 --> 0:24:27.159 to become the chief executives of the football club and 0:24:27.200 --> 0:24:30.680 then resigned from there in two thousand and ten. And 0:24:31.040 --> 0:24:34.320 like I say, I mean, the mainstay over the last 0:24:34.880 --> 0:24:38.680 fifteen to nineteen years has been the after dinner speaking. 0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:43.959 I'm involved in an online trading education business at the moment, 0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:46.320 which has been going for three or four years, there's 0:24:46.359 --> 0:24:51.560 lots of people doesn't really apply to to American citizens, 0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:55.160 but lots of young people getting involved in spread betting 0:24:55.240 --> 0:24:59.160