Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Odd Lots Podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wis and I'm Tracy Alloway. Tracy, I think
Speaker 1: we might have our most famous guest ever on the episode.
Speaker 1: No way. We've got some pretty like well known people before, yes,
Speaker 1: but the person we are speaking to today was, for
Speaker 1: at least for a brief period, one of the most
Speaker 1: well known people in finance and the entire world, if
Speaker 1: not actually one of the most well known people period,
Speaker 1: like in any news. Yeah, yeah, you're probably right. Um,
Speaker 1: do you want to go ahead and introduce who it
Speaker 1: is or say who it is? Yes? I will, And
Speaker 1: you know, I think one also might characterize I said
Speaker 1: that he's are going to be our most famous guest ever.
Speaker 1: Others would probably say he's our most infamous guest ever.
Speaker 1: But our guests this week is Nick Leeson. He is
Speaker 1: famous for being probably the biggest quote unquote rogue trader
Speaker 1: of all time. In the early nineties, it was his
Speaker 1: trades and the attempt to hide them that brought down
Speaker 1: the UK's Bearings Bank, which was a bank that had
Speaker 1: been around for over two hundred years. He then it
Speaker 1: was discovered and he went to Singapore where he spent
Speaker 1: years in a Singapore in prison, there's books about him,
Speaker 1: there's a movie made about him, and then I think
Speaker 1: like after all that ended, probably most people never really
Speaker 1: thought about him again and probably have no idea what
Speaker 1: he's been up to since. Right. But Nick Leeson is
Speaker 1: almost the original rogue trader of modern time. Right. You
Speaker 1: mentioned there was a movie famously with you and McGregor
Speaker 1: called Rogue Trader, and it was I'm sure it was
Speaker 1: the first time that a lot of this stuff entered
Speaker 1: the public consciousness. And as you mentioned, he wasn't Singapore
Speaker 1: at Barings Bank when he did his rogue trades, and
Speaker 1: then he ended up in jail, and then he sort
Speaker 1: of mounted a comeback career. Right, Yeah, absolutely, And I
Speaker 1: do think that point you made is really key that
Speaker 1: from time to time, and I'm sure we'll have them
Speaker 1: again in the future, a roague trader emerges someone who
Speaker 1: went way beyond their risk limits at a financial institution,
Speaker 1: tried to cover them up, failed to cover them up,
Speaker 1: and then their behavior or their trades resulted in staggering losses.
Speaker 1: But as you say, I do think that term probably
Speaker 1: originated with Nick. I guess I'm not a pent sure
Speaker 1: but that's something we can bring up, so without further ado,
Speaker 1: Nick Leeson, thank you very much for joining our blocks. Um,
Speaker 1: you're very welcome, looking forward to it. I guess i'll start.
Speaker 1: Were you the first rogue trader? I? Look, I think
Speaker 1: there were many before me. There probably weren't as many
Speaker 1: that hit the headlines as as dramatically as I did.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, road trader is one of those
Speaker 1: things that well, roague trading is one of those things
Speaker 1: that goes hand in hand with the market. People are
Speaker 1: would often mismark their positions the the marketer market, or
Speaker 1: they would trade outside of their positions. I was certainly
Speaker 1: not the first person to do something like that at Bearings.
Speaker 1: I was definitely the last one, and I probably took
Speaker 1: it a little bit further than anybody had prior to that.
Speaker 1: And I think obviously one of the reasons that I
Speaker 1: am so well known for that road trading activity is
Speaker 1: the catastrophic effects that my actions had in the In
Speaker 1: the majority of cases, most road trading episodes of courts
Speaker 1: early early, and whilst they do financial damage to the institution,
Speaker 1: they don't usually result in the class of the bank.
Speaker 1: So I I don't think we want to dwell too
Speaker 1: much on your actual trading at Bearings, because at this
Speaker 1: point it's been really really well covered. But for the
Speaker 1: purposes of this podcast and the conversation that we're about
Speaker 1: to have, what would you say about what you actually
Speaker 1: did at Bearings? Was it a road trade? Was it authorized?
Speaker 1: Was it as insidious as some people made it out
Speaker 1: to be. I know, look, it was definitely road trading
Speaker 1: I got myself into. I had an awful lot of
Speaker 1: autonomy in Singapore. I could pretty much do what I wanted.
Speaker 1: It was a remote subsidiary of the bank. There wasn't
Speaker 1: a great deal of control or expertise that surrounded me
Speaker 1: in terms of making sure that I was doing what
Speaker 1: I was supposed to be doing. So when things started
Speaker 1: go wrong and I found myself in a difficult situation,
Speaker 1: it was it was a lot easier than you would
Speaker 1: expect it to be to hide those losses for a
Speaker 1: period of time. Now, you know, I used to wake
Speaker 1: up every day thinking that today would be the day
Speaker 1: that somebody would expose what was going on. It was
Speaker 1: only ever supposed to be a short term thing. Like
Speaker 1: I said at the beginning, putting things into error or
Speaker 1: putting trades into error accounts overnight was was a regular
Speaker 1: occurrence appearings at the time. Um, obviously everybody appreciates that
Speaker 1: the that it's not correct, but people used to do
Speaker 1: it warehouse the trade overnight, I think it used to
Speaker 1: be called and then the following day they'd usually closed
Speaker 1: the trade out with hopefully no loss on the transaction.
Speaker 1: So I just took it a little bit. Oh, I
Speaker 1: took it a lot too far. I mean, my actions
Speaker 1: were criminal. There were criminal from the beginning. Um, I
Speaker 1: knew what I was doing, I knew that I shouldn't
Speaker 1: be doing it. I continued, and you know I was
Speaker 1: rightly punished for my activities during that period. So Nick,
Speaker 1: what what would you say is the difference between a
Speaker 1: good trader versus a rogue trader who's trying to book profits.
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's if there's an easy differentiation.
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously people, as everybody knows what their positions
Speaker 1: limits are, they know what they're supposed to be doing.
Speaker 1: People who work in the financial markets are intelligent. I
Speaker 1: think when you find yourself in a difficult situation, you're
Speaker 1: surrounded by people that can help you. And I just
Speaker 1: thought that I could cope with the situation that I
Speaker 1: was in. I didn't want to fail. That was one
Speaker 1: of the biggest things for me. It was always about
Speaker 1: succeeding and being successful, and I had a huge fear
Speaker 1: of failure. So I didn't really communicate very well about
Speaker 1: anything that was going on with me or anything that
Speaker 1: was going on with me at that particular time. So
Speaker 1: I mean, being disciplined, being diligent, being accurate in everything
Speaker 1: that you do will separate those good traders from the
Speaker 1: bad traders, but or from a rogue trader. But I
Speaker 1: think one of my biggest sailants throughout that whole period.
Speaker 1: And it's not something that you see or when you
Speaker 1: go back to the nineties nineties, just the lack of
Speaker 1: communication both from me as an individual, from the organization
Speaker 1: and creating an environment where people could talk about their
Speaker 1: failures and problems that they were facing within the organization
Speaker 1: just really wasn't there. It was all about being successful,
Speaker 1: competing against other people and competing against other banks, and
Speaker 1: you know, only only the strong survive, and it wasn't
Speaker 1: an environment that was necessarily conducive to to owning up
Speaker 1: to what was going on. Number one, but also doing
Speaker 1: a really simple thing, which have changed the pattern of
Speaker 1: everything that I did and everything that happened to the bank.
Speaker 1: And that's just simply asking for help and advice. And
Speaker 1: you know, I was twenty five years old at the time.
Speaker 1: I thought that I could cope with everything, and saw
Speaker 1: asking for help and advice as a sign of weakness.
Speaker 1: And you know, as you all know, banking back in
Speaker 1: the nineties wasn't really about showing weakness. I think that's
Speaker 1: really interesting how you characterize that just sort of the
Speaker 1: culture of not being able to make mistakes, fail or
Speaker 1: ask for any advice or help from anyone. I think
Speaker 1: when people these days think about some of the risks
Speaker 1: that trading or proprietary trading takes, that they see a
Speaker 1: sort of inherent asymmetry in which a trader can capture
Speaker 1: a bonus if they have big upside gains, but if
Speaker 1: they don't have that, you know, they might lose their job.
Speaker 1: But that's the worst. They don't have unlimited downstat in
Speaker 1: the same way. Now, of course, every one ends up
Speaker 1: in prison there it's different. But how much do you
Speaker 1: think that asymmetry is part of the mentality versus just
Speaker 1: what you describe sort of just it sounds a little different,
Speaker 1: not quite that calculating. We're just sort of a very
Speaker 1: sort of discouraging culture. Well, I mean, I think culture
Speaker 1: conduct has a huge part to play, and regulators and
Speaker 1: financial institutions are like spend a lot of time looking
Speaker 1: at that these days. I mean, the short term ism
Speaker 1: of the bonus culture obviously has a is a key
Speaker 1: component of people's behavior, and I think a lot of
Speaker 1: banks and financial institutions are changing the way that that happens.
Speaker 1: But that bonus does create that short term approach to
Speaker 1: what you're going to get paid in the very near future,
Speaker 1: and that does cultivate a risk, a risk appetite that
Speaker 1: can be quite unhealthy. But you know, I think if
Speaker 1: people I mean, like I look back over, I'm fifty
Speaker 1: one years of eight now, so this is you know,
Speaker 1: half of my lifetime ago as we currently stand, and
Speaker 1: you know, creating an environment where people can talk and
Speaker 1: and feel empowered enough to talk about things that they're
Speaker 1: experiencing within the work environment, I think it's a crucial factor.
Speaker 1: And if you can, if you can then reduce some
Speaker 1: of that short termism that we see with the bonuses
Speaker 1: that are paid with in the world, of banking that
Speaker 1: it makes for a safer environment. You know, for me
Speaker 1: at the time, I come from a very working class background.
Speaker 1: I wanted to be successful. I wanted to do better
Speaker 1: than my family members have done and and sort of
Speaker 1: move along in terms of the way that that that
Speaker 1: my life was progressing and being successful with the key
Speaker 1: part of that. And you know, I trying to announciate
Speaker 1: my failure or to try and confront it myself with
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say it's impossible, because you sometimes
Speaker 1: you just have to do it, but the you know,
Speaker 1: it was just something that I didn't do. During that time.
Speaker 1: Everybody sort of bowed into the first story that surrounded
Speaker 1: me and it propelled everything forward. And you know, whenever
Speaker 1: everybody else is then getting paid bonuses and everybody's looking
Speaker 1: forward to their bonuses, it kind of sweeps you up
Speaker 1: into this mouse that you that you kind of have
Speaker 1: no control over. I know it's difficult to understand, but
Speaker 1: everybody was buying into the success story that surrounded me
Speaker 1: at the time. It's kind of amazing to me to
Speaker 1: think that you were twenty five years old when when
Speaker 1: all this was happening. Um, let's fast forward a little bit,
Speaker 1: so you have the rogue trades at barings, they get
Speaker 1: discovered and eventually you go to jail for I think
Speaker 1: it was three to four years. What happened once you
Speaker 1: got out of jail, like, what was your initial thought
Speaker 1: about what your future was and what was your plan
Speaker 1: at that point? Yeah, well, I was sentenced to six
Speaker 1: and a half years in jail, so you get a
Speaker 1: standard one third remission. So I spent four years and
Speaker 1: four months imprisoning Singapore. I had cancer whilst I was
Speaker 1: imprisoning Singapore as well, so when I was released, the
Speaker 1: first thing after four years in prison, you struggle to
Speaker 1: make decisions a little bit. So I was very reliant
Speaker 1: on my lawyer to help me through some of that
Speaker 1: decision making process. I think something quite weird had happened
Speaker 1: in the period that I was away in prison. Things
Speaker 1: have changed in the UK and there was a infamy, celebrity,
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, and certainly in my case,
Speaker 1: it was infamy. People are intrigued by that, they're interested
Speaker 1: by that. So I had a very short window in
Speaker 1: terms of how I used to look at what I'd
Speaker 1: be doing for the next three months, the next six
Speaker 1: months or whatever. But then I started to get offers
Speaker 1: to do TV programs to talk about what happened during
Speaker 1: my time at Bearings. I've written a book before I
Speaker 1: went to went to Singapore. I was originally arrested in
Speaker 1: Germany and spent nine months there writing the book Road Trader,
Speaker 1: that which which paid for my legal fees. I was
Speaker 1: reasonably well off, but I wasn't wealthy enough to baby
Speaker 1: the million and a half pound that it was gonna
Speaker 1: cost to to mount a defense of my case. Not
Speaker 1: that there was much of a defense because I played
Speaker 1: guilty to everything, but it took nine months before I
Speaker 1: went back to Singapore, so there was some heavy legal
Speaker 1: fees that needed to be paid. So that was why
Speaker 1: I wrote the book Road Trader whilst I was imprisoned
Speaker 1: in Germany. But then when I was released, people invited
Speaker 1: me to do after dinner talks. That a dinner, so
Speaker 1: after dinner speeches, and then that's moved on to a
Speaker 1: lot of conference and keynote addresses. The events that range
Speaker 1: from things that are very financial orientated, risk management compliance
Speaker 1: organizations who are looking to promote their own products, through
Speaker 1: to awards ceremonies which have nothing to do with the
Speaker 1: world of finance at all. So you know, sometimes I
Speaker 1: might host a dinner for a small group of people
Speaker 1: who are a vulture or venture capitalists and are looking
Speaker 1: to do some businesses, some key individuals. Other times it
Speaker 1: can be a conference for upwards of five six hundred
Speaker 1: people at an event where somebody wants to focus on
Speaker 1: compliance and the things that can go wrong if you
Speaker 1: don't manage to risk appropriately. So you didn't have you Obviously,
Speaker 1: people were intrigued by your experience, says, by what you learned,
Speaker 1: and you've got a number of invited, as you said,
Speaker 1: to speak. But in terms of rebuilding a life, you
Speaker 1: have to figure there's only so much of a window
Speaker 1: where people want to hear it before eventually the sort
Speaker 1: of infamy faded. And what did you think then, did
Speaker 1: you have some idea for like, okay, what is a career?
Speaker 1: What is a full second life? Possibly look like it's weird,
Speaker 1: So to be honest with you, I mean I do
Speaker 1: I do as many after dinners that the conference events
Speaker 1: right now as I did nineteen years ago when I
Speaker 1: was released. So it's um, you know, and I suppose
Speaker 1: things like recently the celebrity Big Brother program that I
Speaker 1: was on in the UK kind of introduce you to
Speaker 1: a younger generation. I mean, so I traveled the world
Speaker 1: talking at events. So the mainstay for the last nineteen
Speaker 1: years since I was released from prison has been after
Speaker 1: dinner talking talking at conferences, and I probably do somewhere
Speaker 1: between thirty and thirty five of those a year. Has
Speaker 1: anyone from Bearings, people whose careers and jobs were lost
Speaker 1: because the banks collapsed, people who lost a fortune, do
Speaker 1: they ever express resent that you have had built this
Speaker 1: career getting paid to speak on these subjects, getting flown
Speaker 1: around the world, going on TV, becoming a sort of
Speaker 1: mini celebrity, which is in a way arguably at their expense.
Speaker 1: The only st answer is known. I've come across many
Speaker 1: people who worked with Bearings during that time. I think
Speaker 1: the thing and you find this with a lot of
Speaker 1: speakers as well, as you go around the world and
Speaker 1: you listen to them. If you tell lies, you get
Speaker 1: things through. So I don't tell any lies. I told
Speaker 1: enough of them years ago when I worked at the bank.
Speaker 1: I fully accept that. So there's it's very honest and
Speaker 1: candid that it doesn't paint me in a very good light.
Speaker 1: So you know, I've met Peter Norris's the c IO
Speaker 1: of Bearings at the time. I've met many of the
Speaker 1: people who worked on the accet Liability Committee, several of
Speaker 1: the main board members that were at Bearings, and no,
Speaker 1: there's no resentment. You do get a bit of negativity
Speaker 1: and it tends to come from people of a certain
Speaker 1: age group who who work, you know, probably chartered accountants
Speaker 1: and think that I, you know, sort to undermine the
Speaker 1: banking system in the UK. And it's just a you know,
Speaker 1: it's a story of errors and compounding those errors with
Speaker 1: some really stupid decisions during that period which ultimately led
Speaker 1: to the class of the bank. It's you know, it
Speaker 1: was frauled my partner. It was definitely criminal and I
Speaker 1: was rightly punished for that. And you know, the punished
Speaker 1: and is not just the sentence. You know, I developed
Speaker 1: cancer whilst I was in prison, I was divorced by
Speaker 1: my wife, and I've had to rebuild my life after that.
Speaker 1: All of that is part of the punishment. And I
Speaker 1: accept that everybody is entitled to their opinion, but so
Speaker 1: am I, and you know I don't. I don't walk
Speaker 1: around with my head bowed when you're when you're released
Speaker 1: from posit prison as I was in, you have a choice.
Speaker 1: You can you can hide away, or you can confront
Speaker 1: what you did, try to understand it and then move
Speaker 1: forward from that point. But if you if you really,
Speaker 1: if you don't take yourself apart and really rip away
Speaker 1: all the veneer and really look at yourself and understand
Speaker 1: that you didn't like yourself and what you did and
Speaker 1: how you've reacted in certain situations, that it's impossible to
Speaker 1: build yourself back up. You know, you have to go
Speaker 1: through that process. So when you look at some of
Speaker 1: these other roads trading episodes that exists around the world.
Speaker 1: You know Jerome Curvy a being one, and he still
Speaker 1: blames the bank quick to add a boy still has
Speaker 1: lots of issues that he's campaigning against. But they did
Speaker 1: wrong that the libel rates fixed. You know, people who
Speaker 1: work in banks, as I've mentioned already, are are amongst
Speaker 1: the most intelligent people in the world, and they know
Speaker 1: when they're doing something wrong. So when a lawyer stands
Speaker 1: up and tries to convince the court that there was
Speaker 1: a pressure to perform and they there's lots of other
Speaker 1: mitigating factors, that's rubbish because these people know what they're
Speaker 1: doing they know they shouldn't be doing it, me included,
Speaker 1: and for that reason, they need to be punished. And
Speaker 1: if you don't punish people, you don't have deterrent, and
Speaker 1: you know that what needs to happen. So I think
Speaker 1: we do want to focus on, you know, how you
Speaker 1: rebuild your life, um and your career. But since you
Speaker 1: you up Jerome Curville and quickly at a bully at ubs,
Speaker 1: and I'm just curious to get your take on this, like,
Speaker 1: do you think there is a common thread that runs
Speaker 1: through all these different modern rogue traders or is each
Speaker 1: rogue trader scandal different in some way which I would
Speaker 1: suggest that you know, for big financial institutions, there's actually
Speaker 1: no one like silver bullet way of protecting themselves. I
Speaker 1: think you hit the nail on the head there. I
Speaker 1: don't think there is a silver bullet. I think you
Speaker 1: can you can look up and people have done this
Speaker 1: over the years. People have tried to look at personality
Speaker 1: types and behavioral analytics and how people are behavior and
Speaker 1: I think there's you know, there's very clear differences I
Speaker 1: think between myself Curvial at a bully. There was there
Speaker 1: was a guy the Gucci at di wo in New
Speaker 1: York who was exposed around the same time as me
Speaker 1: as well, so they've been during that period. There were
Speaker 1: there were quite a large number. I think eventually the industry,
Speaker 1: rather than trying to work out who potentially is going
Speaker 1: to be then X road trader. It's about making sure
Speaker 1: your controls and your systems are as robust and effective
Speaker 1: as they possibly can be, and then you expose people
Speaker 1: far sooner, which I believe is what happens within the
Speaker 1: world of banking these days. There are still people who
Speaker 1: post road trade, not on a daily basis, but it happens,
Speaker 1: and people are just exposed a lot sooner and the
Speaker 1: net effect of their actions is very, very limited. You know,
Speaker 1: I think the day of these big excessive road trading
Speaker 1: episode is a long way behind us because the industry
Speaker 1: has changed. Compliance and mismanagement is better than it's ever been,
Speaker 1: so I don't think there is a silver bullet. It
Speaker 1: is about just making sure that you control as good
Speaker 1: as they possibly can be, that you freshen them up.
Speaker 1: You're not doing the same thing today that you were
Speaker 1: two years ago, because if you are, you can guarantee
Speaker 1: that somebody's circumventing those rules already. So it's about being
Speaker 1: proactive and making sure that you're as good as you
Speaker 1: possibly can be, and that's what everybody aspires to be.
Speaker 1: It's just, you know, when you're looking at compliance and
Speaker 1: risk management roles around the globe, not necessarily in any
Speaker 1: particular location. You know, people don't like asking the difficult questions.
Speaker 1: They don't like rocking the boat. They're getting paid a
Speaker 1: big salary for for for not doing a great deal,
Speaker 1: and maybe that's an incorrect characterization, but they don't want
Speaker 1: to rock the boat. You know, people need to ask
Speaker 1: the difficult questions if you think, if you see something's
Speaker 1: going wrong or you're worried about something, you need a
Speaker 1: voice that's being heard, and banking over the years haven't
Speaker 1: and I'm not talking about the US or any particular location,
Speaker 1: but so in the UK, banking hasn't encouraged that people
Speaker 1: who are a little bit dissonant or disruptive and you
Speaker 1: have a voice, you know, talking about your speeches that
Speaker 1: you gave and the lessons that you've learned. There are
Speaker 1: a couple other episodes in your recent career that are interesting,
Speaker 1: including for several years you were the head of a
Speaker 1: a soccer team or a football club Galway United. How
Speaker 1: did that happen? How did you become the head of
Speaker 1: a football team? Well, I mean it's a small The
Speaker 1: football teams in Ireland are quite small, to be honest
Speaker 1: with you. So the now I live in Galway and
Speaker 1: my wife said I was getting in a way at home,
Speaker 1: wanted me to go and do something. And but that's
Speaker 1: that's the genuine story. So I've been here for about
Speaker 1: fifteen years since I've remarried, and you know, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of big American buyers pharmacy companies around here, from
Speaker 1: Shannon down to Galway, and but they're not things that
Speaker 1: you know, that that I would be able to turn
Speaker 1: my hand to. So apart from working in financial market,
Speaker 1: the only other real interest that I've had is football.
Speaker 1: So when somebody asked me to get involved with the
Speaker 1: football club, I did, and you know it was a
Speaker 1: bit of fundraising at first, and then I moved on
Speaker 1: to become the chief executives of the football club and
Speaker 1: then resigned from there in two thousand and ten. And
Speaker 1: like I say, I mean, the mainstay over the last
Speaker 1: fifteen to nineteen years has been the after dinner speaking.
Speaker 1: I'm involved in an online trading education business at the moment,
Speaker 1: which has been going for three or four years, there's
Speaker 1: lots of people doesn't really apply to to American citizens,
Speaker 1: but lots of young people getting involved in spread betting
Speaker 1: and CfDS and losing a lot of money because they
Speaker 1: don't they don't really have any experience of the market there.
Speaker 1: They're lurid in with some quite misleading advertising. So you know,
Speaker 1: my name signifies more than anything else that this can
Speaker 1: be really dangerous and you can releast a lot of money.
Speaker 1: So I mean that makes sense in the context of
Speaker 1: an online trading education system. But you were also on
Speaker 1: the most recent season of Celebrity Big Brother in the UK,
Speaker 1: and I'm just wondering how that came about, because if
Speaker 1: you forgive me, you know, when I think about celebrities,
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily think about a rogue trader from the
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties. So what was the approach that they made
Speaker 1: to you, and what do you think you brought to
Speaker 1: that show? Can I just before you can I just
Speaker 1: intervene here real quickly, because I don't think many people
Speaker 1: probably do think of a former rug trader is just celebrity.
Speaker 1: But my impression of UK media culture is that there
Speaker 1: is a very large, enduring interest in just to be
Speaker 1: blunt reality shows about what we would call c and
Speaker 1: dealist celebrities and so people that aren't exactly the biggest names.
Speaker 1: I get the impression state side that the media in
Speaker 1: the UK is much more into oh do you remember
Speaker 1: this name from the past, while here he is. So anyway,
Speaker 1: you can answer Tracy's question, but in a way I
Speaker 1: didn't find I didn't find it that surprising of a
Speaker 1: of a choice. How dare you call kirstially a dealist
Speaker 1: celebrity job lovely? I won't have a bad word said
Speaker 1: about her. She you know, she was lovely throughout my
Speaker 1: experience in the house. I think there's two things. I
Speaker 1: think you're right. I think there's a lot of the
Speaker 1: reality programs that we have in the UK. I think
Speaker 1: you can even go lower than be and probably get
Speaker 1: down to day, but they have things as well. So
Speaker 1: for the thief that this year was was for people
Speaker 1: that were caught in the eye of a storm, a
Speaker 1: media storm, which obviously applied to me. And I think
Speaker 1: if you look through I think there were thirteen people
Speaker 1: that went into the house at the beginning and I
Speaker 1: think mine was probably the biggest media storm at the time.
Speaker 1: I mean, as you characterize at the beginning, it took
Speaker 1: over the world's media for a period of time. So look,
Speaker 1: for me, it was it was a bit of a
Speaker 1: challenge for me. I It's twenty years since I've had cancer,
Speaker 1: so you know, I was given a chance of living
Speaker 1: for five years. So I you know, it's a bit
Speaker 1: of a milestone for me. And it was one way
Speaker 1: of marking that. They obviously pay you quite well for
Speaker 1: your time on the program, so I'm not going to
Speaker 1: not going to deny that part either. But the response
Speaker 1: has been a extremely positive and it's been good. And
Speaker 1: I you know, I as you as you mentioned at
Speaker 1: the beginning, I came forth. So Kirsty was one of
Speaker 1: the people that beat me. Um. So yeah, look it
Speaker 1: was I think it was a worthwhile experience. Okay, So Nick,
Speaker 1: here's a question for you. Um. You know, you had
Speaker 1: the Rogue Trade, which clearly um erupted into a media
Speaker 1: storm as you put it, and ended in a jail sentence.
Speaker 1: But after that you were able to rebuild your career. Um.
Speaker 1: You were, you know, a motivational speaker, you were the
Speaker 1: head of Galway United and you were on celebrity Um,
Speaker 1: big brother. Do you think you're happier without with that
Speaker 1: career outcome versus what would have happened if you had
Speaker 1: been at Bearings without the rogue trading scandal, If you
Speaker 1: had just been a successful trader at Bearings, which would
Speaker 1: you have aft? I would definitely have preferred to be
Speaker 1: the successful trader of Bearings, There's no doubt about that.
Speaker 1: But you know, you have to look back on like
Speaker 1: life has lots of different twists and turns, and you're
Speaker 1: you're the sum of all your experiences. I don't have
Speaker 1: to look away when I look at people. That period
Speaker 1: of my life will always be the most embarrassing period
Speaker 1: of my life. There's absolutely no doubt about that. But
Speaker 1: I've dealt with it. I've faced it, um, so I
Speaker 1: don't I can look people in the eye and move forward.
Speaker 1: I'm going to use the phrase to say that be
Speaker 1: proud of myself, but that's not exactly right. I'm comfortable
Speaker 1: and self confident in who I've become, but I'm not.
Speaker 1: I'm certainly not proud of what happened during that period
Speaker 1: between n because it's the complete opposite of what I
Speaker 1: wanted to achieve. So the answer to your question is,
Speaker 1: all things being equal, I would have preferred to be
Speaker 1: the CEO of Bearings at this time, but you know
Speaker 1: that at this point, unfortunately that is just wishful thinking,
Speaker 1: because life, for lots of different reasons, primarily my own stupidity,
Speaker 1: took took a variety of different terms. Nick Lisa, there's
Speaker 1: been a fascinating conversation. Obviously, we've known your name for
Speaker 1: years in the news and really appreciate you coming on
Speaker 1: your candor and perspectives. Thank you very much for joining out.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thanks Nick. That was great, Tracy, I really
Speaker 1: thought there was an interesting conversation. Like I said at
Speaker 1: the end, you know Nick Lisa and is one of
Speaker 1: those names I've just heard forever. In fact, I think
Speaker 1: I can remember being in middle school when I guess
Speaker 1: I was twelve years old and reading in the news
Speaker 1: or seeing something on TV about the collapse of this
Speaker 1: legendary multi century old bank Bearings and how it was
Speaker 1: brought down by a trader in Singapore, and so to
Speaker 1: actually hear the voice of that person and get their
Speaker 1: perspective I thought was incredibly fascinating. Right, Well, I will
Speaker 1: say I think you were a much more engaged twelve
Speaker 1: year old than I probably was. But one of the
Speaker 1: things that struck me a lot is, you know, this
Speaker 1: notion that a twenty five year old trader basically brought
Speaker 1: down one of the oldest merchant banks from Britain at
Speaker 1: the time. And you know, as much as you want
Speaker 1: to lay the blame on a single person, the notion
Speaker 1: that any like year old could do that to a
Speaker 1: single entity kind of speaks volumes about the controls that
Speaker 1: were also in place of that company. Absolutely, and as
Speaker 1: he as Nick pointed out, there have been multiple rogue
Speaker 1: trader incidents or in recent years, and they're almost certainly
Speaker 1: will be in the future because there's no silver bullet,
Speaker 1: but they haven't been on the scale that they've brought
Speaker 1: down an entire bank, And it seems kind of hard
Speaker 1: to imagine. I mean, you know, knock on wood, but
Speaker 1: it's hard to imagine in this day and age, when
Speaker 1: they're so much more awareness of this and sort of
Speaker 1: surveillance of traders, internal controls, things like that, that that
Speaker 1: could happen. But you know, you are going back to
Speaker 1: the small sort of satellite branch way out in Singapore,
Speaker 1: different time zones than the people who were really running
Speaker 1: the bank, you know, much less ability to sort of
Speaker 1: watch everything in real time. It's almost not surprising that
Speaker 1: that was eventually going to happen, right, But you're right
Speaker 1: in the sense that we we do have additional measures
Speaker 1: now that are aimed squarely at preventing this type of behavior.
Speaker 1: And that's actually from what I remember, I think that's
Speaker 1: how Quake coup At a bully, the ubs brogue trader
Speaker 1: was initially found out. Was he went away on You know,
Speaker 1: a lot of traders nowadays have two weeks mandated holidays
Speaker 1: so that if they are cooking the books, those things
Speaker 1: can actually come to light, and I think that's how
Speaker 1: they found him. So clearly the industry is adapting to
Speaker 1: rogue traders and is installing new methods of um finding
Speaker 1: them out. But I guess the challenge is always um
Speaker 1: sort of adapting and making sure that the traders don't
Speaker 1: become used to your detection. Yeah, absolutely, I think. Also,
Speaker 1: I just there are a number of people in the
Speaker 1: sort of Nick Leason model of career rehabilitation that we've seen,
Speaker 1: so you know, the Wolf of Wall Street guy wasn't
Speaker 1: a rogue trader, but he got in trouble and then
Speaker 1: he sort of goes around and talks about stuff. But uh,
Speaker 1: without judging any of those other people, I did get
Speaker 1: the impression that Nick is sort of totally honest and
Speaker 1: upfront about what he did, and the fact that he
Speaker 1: doesn't like sort of like pat himself on the back
Speaker 1: for having you know, some great insights or blame other people,
Speaker 1: have felt like a sort of honest sincere reckoning and
Speaker 1: assessment of his own career. Yeah, and I did think
Speaker 1: it was interesting that he said, you know, if he
Speaker 1: was given the ultimate choice between like his current comeback
Speaker 1: versus having been a legitimate trader um who rose through
Speaker 1: the ranks of bearings, that he would have chosen the ladder.
Speaker 1: That that kind of says a lot. Absolutely well. This
Speaker 1: has been another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm
Speaker 1: Joe Wisnthal. You've could follow me on Twitter at The
Speaker 1: Stalwart and I'm Tracy Alloway. I'm on Twitter at Tracy Alloway.
Speaker 1: And you should follow Nick Leason on Twitter. He is
Speaker 1: at the Nick Leason And don't forget to follow our
Speaker 1: producer tofor Foreheads on Twitter. He's at Foreheads t as well.
Speaker 1: As the Bloomberg head of podcast Francesco Levi at Francesca Today.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.