1 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wis and I'm Tracy Alloway. Tracy, I think 3 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: we might have our most famous guest ever on the episode. 4 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: No way. We've got some pretty like well known people before, yes, 5 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: but the person we are speaking to today was, for 6 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: at least for a brief period, one of the most 7 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: well known people in finance and the entire world, if 8 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: not actually one of the most well known people period, 9 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: like in any news. Yeah, yeah, you're probably right. Um, 10 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: do you want to go ahead and introduce who it 11 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: is or say who it is? Yes? I will, And 12 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: you know, I think one also might characterize I said 13 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: that he's are going to be our most famous guest ever. 14 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: Others would probably say he's our most infamous guest ever. 15 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: But our guests this week is Nick Leeson. He is 16 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: famous for being probably the biggest quote unquote rogue trader 17 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: of all time. In the early nineties, it was his 18 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: trades and the attempt to hide them that brought down 19 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: the UK's Bearings Bank, which was a bank that had 20 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: been around for over two hundred years. He then it 21 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: was discovered and he went to Singapore where he spent 22 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: years in a Singapore in prison, there's books about him, 23 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 1: there's a movie made about him, and then I think 24 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: like after all that ended, probably most people never really 25 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: thought about him again and probably have no idea what 26 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: he's been up to since. Right. But Nick Leeson is 27 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: almost the original rogue trader of modern time. Right. You 28 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: mentioned there was a movie famously with you and McGregor 29 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: called Rogue Trader, and it was I'm sure it was 30 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: the first time that a lot of this stuff entered 31 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: the public consciousness. And as you mentioned, he wasn't Singapore 32 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 1: at Barings Bank when he did his rogue trades, and 33 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: then he ended up in jail, and then he sort 34 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: of mounted a comeback career. Right, Yeah, absolutely, And I 35 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: do think that point you made is really key that 36 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: from time to time, and I'm sure we'll have them 37 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: again in the future, a roague trader emerges someone who 38 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: went way beyond their risk limits at a financial institution, 39 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: tried to cover them up, failed to cover them up, 40 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: and then their behavior or their trades resulted in staggering losses. 41 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: But as you say, I do think that term probably 42 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: originated with Nick. I guess I'm not a pent sure 43 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: but that's something we can bring up, so without further ado, 44 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: Nick Leeson, thank you very much for joining our blocks. Um, 45 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: you're very welcome, looking forward to it. I guess i'll start. 46 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: Were you the first rogue trader? I? Look, I think 47 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: there were many before me. There probably weren't as many 48 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: that hit the headlines as as dramatically as I did. 49 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: I think, you know, road trader is one of those 50 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: things that well, roague trading is one of those things 51 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: that goes hand in hand with the market. People are 52 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: would often mismark their positions the the marketer market, or 53 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: they would trade outside of their positions. I was certainly 54 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: not the first person to do something like that at Bearings. 55 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: I was definitely the last one, and I probably took 56 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: it a little bit further than anybody had prior to that. 57 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: And I think obviously one of the reasons that I 58 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: am so well known for that road trading activity is 59 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: the catastrophic effects that my actions had in the In 60 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: the majority of cases, most road trading episodes of courts 61 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: early early, and whilst they do financial damage to the institution, 62 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: they don't usually result in the class of the bank. 63 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: So I I don't think we want to dwell too 64 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: much on your actual trading at Bearings, because at this 65 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: point it's been really really well covered. But for the 66 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: purposes of this podcast and the conversation that we're about 67 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: to have, what would you say about what you actually 68 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: did at Bearings? Was it a road trade? Was it authorized? 69 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: Was it as insidious as some people made it out 70 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: to be. I know, look, it was definitely road trading 71 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: I got myself into. I had an awful lot of 72 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,679 Speaker 1: autonomy in Singapore. I could pretty much do what I wanted. 73 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: It was a remote subsidiary of the bank. There wasn't 74 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: a great deal of control or expertise that surrounded me 75 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: in terms of making sure that I was doing what 76 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: I was supposed to be doing. So when things started 77 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: go wrong and I found myself in a difficult situation, 78 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,919 Speaker 1: it was it was a lot easier than you would 79 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: expect it to be to hide those losses for a 80 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: period of time. Now, you know, I used to wake 81 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: up every day thinking that today would be the day 82 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 1: that somebody would expose what was going on. It was 83 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: only ever supposed to be a short term thing. Like 84 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: I said at the beginning, putting things into error or 85 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 1: putting trades into error accounts overnight was was a regular 86 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 1: occurrence appearings at the time. Um, obviously everybody appreciates that 87 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: the that it's not correct, but people used to do 88 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: it warehouse the trade overnight, I think it used to 89 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: be called and then the following day they'd usually closed 90 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: the trade out with hopefully no loss on the transaction. 91 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: So I just took it a little bit. Oh, I 92 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: took it a lot too far. I mean, my actions 93 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: were criminal. There were criminal from the beginning. Um, I 94 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: knew what I was doing, I knew that I shouldn't 95 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: be doing it. I continued, and you know I was 96 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: rightly punished for my activities during that period. So Nick, 97 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: what what would you say is the difference between a 98 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: good trader versus a rogue trader who's trying to book profits. 99 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if there's if there's an easy differentiation. 100 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously people, as everybody knows what their positions 101 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: limits are, they know what they're supposed to be doing. 102 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: People who work in the financial markets are intelligent. I 103 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: think when you find yourself in a difficult situation, you're 104 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: surrounded by people that can help you. And I just 105 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: thought that I could cope with the situation that I 106 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: was in. I didn't want to fail. That was one 107 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: of the biggest things for me. It was always about 108 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: succeeding and being successful, and I had a huge fear 109 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: of failure. So I didn't really communicate very well about 110 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: anything that was going on with me or anything that 111 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: was going on with me at that particular time. So 112 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: I mean, being disciplined, being diligent, being accurate in everything 113 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: that you do will separate those good traders from the 114 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: bad traders, but or from a rogue trader. But I 115 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: think one of my biggest sailants throughout that whole period. 116 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: And it's not something that you see or when you 117 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: go back to the nineties nineties, just the lack of 118 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: communication both from me as an individual, from the organization 119 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: and creating an environment where people could talk about their 120 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: failures and problems that they were facing within the organization 121 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: just really wasn't there. It was all about being successful, 122 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: competing against other people and competing against other banks, and 123 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: you know, only only the strong survive, and it wasn't 124 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: an environment that was necessarily conducive to to owning up 125 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: to what was going on. Number one, but also doing 126 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: a really simple thing, which have changed the pattern of 127 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: everything that I did and everything that happened to the bank. 128 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: And that's just simply asking for help and advice. And 129 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: you know, I was twenty five years old at the time. 130 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: I thought that I could cope with everything, and saw 131 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: asking for help and advice as a sign of weakness. 132 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: And you know, as you all know, banking back in 133 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: the nineties wasn't really about showing weakness. I think that's 134 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: really interesting how you characterize that just sort of the 135 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: culture of not being able to make mistakes, fail or 136 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: ask for any advice or help from anyone. I think 137 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 1: when people these days think about some of the risks 138 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: that trading or proprietary trading takes, that they see a 139 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: sort of inherent asymmetry in which a trader can capture 140 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: a bonus if they have big upside gains, but if 141 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: they don't have that, you know, they might lose their job. 142 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: But that's the worst. They don't have unlimited downstat in 143 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: the same way. Now, of course, every one ends up 144 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: in prison there it's different. But how much do you 145 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: think that asymmetry is part of the mentality versus just 146 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: what you describe sort of just it sounds a little different, 147 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: not quite that calculating. We're just sort of a very 148 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: sort of discouraging culture. Well, I mean, I think culture 149 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: conduct has a huge part to play, and regulators and 150 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: financial institutions are like spend a lot of time looking 151 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: at that these days. I mean, the short term ism 152 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: of the bonus culture obviously has a is a key 153 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: component of people's behavior, and I think a lot of 154 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: banks and financial institutions are changing the way that that happens. 155 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: But that bonus does create that short term approach to 156 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: what you're going to get paid in the very near future, 157 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: and that does cultivate a risk, a risk appetite that 158 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,719 Speaker 1: can be quite unhealthy. But you know, I think if 159 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: people I mean, like I look back over, I'm fifty 160 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: one years of eight now, so this is you know, 161 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: half of my lifetime ago as we currently stand, and 162 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 1: you know, creating an environment where people can talk and 163 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: and feel empowered enough to talk about things that they're 164 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: experiencing within the work environment, I think it's a crucial factor. 165 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: And if you can, if you can then reduce some 166 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: of that short termism that we see with the bonuses 167 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: that are paid with in the world, of banking that 168 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: it makes for a safer environment. You know, for me 169 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,559 Speaker 1: at the time, I come from a very working class background. 170 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: I wanted to be successful. I wanted to do better 171 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: than my family members have done and and sort of 172 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: move along in terms of the way that that that 173 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: my life was progressing and being successful with the key 174 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,719 Speaker 1: part of that. And you know, I trying to announciate 175 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: my failure or to try and confront it myself with 176 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: I'm not going to say it's impossible, because you sometimes 177 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: you just have to do it, but the you know, 178 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,839 Speaker 1: it was just something that I didn't do. During that time. 179 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: Everybody sort of bowed into the first story that surrounded 180 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: me and it propelled everything forward. And you know, whenever 181 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: everybody else is then getting paid bonuses and everybody's looking 182 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: forward to their bonuses, it kind of sweeps you up 183 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: into this mouse that you that you kind of have 184 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 1: no control over. I know it's difficult to understand, but 185 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: everybody was buying into the success story that surrounded me 186 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: at the time. It's kind of amazing to me to 187 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: think that you were twenty five years old when when 188 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: all this was happening. Um, let's fast forward a little bit, 189 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: so you have the rogue trades at barings, they get 190 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: discovered and eventually you go to jail for I think 191 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: it was three to four years. What happened once you 192 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: got out of jail, like, what was your initial thought 193 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: about what your future was and what was your plan 194 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: at that point? Yeah, well, I was sentenced to six 195 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: and a half years in jail, so you get a 196 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 1: standard one third remission. So I spent four years and 197 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: four months imprisoning Singapore. I had cancer whilst I was 198 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: imprisoning Singapore as well, so when I was released, the 199 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: first thing after four years in prison, you struggle to 200 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: make decisions a little bit. So I was very reliant 201 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: on my lawyer to help me through some of that 202 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,439 Speaker 1: decision making process. I think something quite weird had happened 203 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: in the period that I was away in prison. Things 204 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: have changed in the UK and there was a infamy, celebrity, 205 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, and certainly in my case, 206 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: it was infamy. People are intrigued by that, they're interested 207 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: by that. So I had a very short window in 208 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 1: terms of how I used to look at what I'd 209 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: be doing for the next three months, the next six 210 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: months or whatever. But then I started to get offers 211 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: to do TV programs to talk about what happened during 212 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: my time at Bearings. I've written a book before I 213 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: went to went to Singapore. I was originally arrested in 214 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 1: Germany and spent nine months there writing the book Road Trader, 215 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: that which which paid for my legal fees. I was 216 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 1: reasonably well off, but I wasn't wealthy enough to baby 217 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: the million and a half pound that it was gonna 218 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: cost to to mount a defense of my case. Not 219 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: that there was much of a defense because I played 220 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: guilty to everything, but it took nine months before I 221 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: went back to Singapore, so there was some heavy legal 222 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: fees that needed to be paid. So that was why 223 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: I wrote the book Road Trader whilst I was imprisoned 224 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: in Germany. But then when I was released, people invited 225 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: me to do after dinner talks. That a dinner, so 226 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: after dinner speeches, and then that's moved on to a 227 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: lot of conference and keynote addresses. The events that range 228 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: from things that are very financial orientated, risk management compliance 229 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: organizations who are looking to promote their own products, through 230 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: to awards ceremonies which have nothing to do with the 231 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: world of finance at all. So you know, sometimes I 232 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: might host a dinner for a small group of people 233 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: who are a vulture or venture capitalists and are looking 234 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: to do some businesses, some key individuals. Other times it 235 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: can be a conference for upwards of five six hundred 236 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: people at an event where somebody wants to focus on 237 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: compliance and the things that can go wrong if you 238 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: don't manage to risk appropriately. So you didn't have you Obviously, 239 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: people were intrigued by your experience, says, by what you learned, 240 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: and you've got a number of invited, as you said, 241 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: to speak. But in terms of rebuilding a life, you 242 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: have to figure there's only so much of a window 243 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: where people want to hear it before eventually the sort 244 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: of infamy faded. And what did you think then, did 245 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: you have some idea for like, okay, what is a career? 246 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: What is a full second life? Possibly look like it's weird, 247 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: So to be honest with you, I mean I do 248 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: I do as many after dinners that the conference events 249 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: right now as I did nineteen years ago when I 250 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: was released. So it's um, you know, and I suppose 251 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: things like recently the celebrity Big Brother program that I 252 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: was on in the UK kind of introduce you to 253 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: a younger generation. I mean, so I traveled the world 254 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: talking at events. So the mainstay for the last nineteen 255 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: years since I was released from prison has been after 256 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: dinner talking talking at conferences, and I probably do somewhere 257 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: between thirty and thirty five of those a year. Has 258 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: anyone from Bearings, people whose careers and jobs were lost 259 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: because the banks collapsed, people who lost a fortune, do 260 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: they ever express resent that you have had built this 261 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: career getting paid to speak on these subjects, getting flown 262 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: around the world, going on TV, becoming a sort of 263 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: mini celebrity, which is in a way arguably at their expense. 264 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: The only st answer is known. I've come across many 265 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: people who worked with Bearings during that time. I think 266 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: the thing and you find this with a lot of 267 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: speakers as well, as you go around the world and 268 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: you listen to them. If you tell lies, you get 269 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: things through. So I don't tell any lies. I told 270 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: enough of them years ago when I worked at the bank. 271 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: I fully accept that. So there's it's very honest and 272 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: candid that it doesn't paint me in a very good light. 273 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: So you know, I've met Peter Norris's the c IO 274 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: of Bearings at the time. I've met many of the 275 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: people who worked on the accet Liability Committee, several of 276 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: the main board members that were at Bearings, and no, 277 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: there's no resentment. You do get a bit of negativity 278 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: and it tends to come from people of a certain 279 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: age group who who work, you know, probably chartered accountants 280 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 1: and think that I, you know, sort to undermine the 281 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: banking system in the UK. And it's just a you know, 282 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: it's a story of errors and compounding those errors with 283 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: some really stupid decisions during that period which ultimately led 284 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: to the class of the bank. It's you know, it 285 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: was frauled my partner. It was definitely criminal and I 286 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,959 Speaker 1: was rightly punished for that. And you know, the punished 287 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 1: and is not just the sentence. You know, I developed 288 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 1: cancer whilst I was in prison, I was divorced by 289 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: my wife, and I've had to rebuild my life after that. 290 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: All of that is part of the punishment. And I 291 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: accept that everybody is entitled to their opinion, but so 292 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: am I, and you know I don't. I don't walk 293 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: around with my head bowed when you're when you're released 294 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: from posit prison as I was in, you have a choice. 295 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: You can you can hide away, or you can confront 296 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 1: what you did, try to understand it and then move 297 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: forward from that point. But if you if you really, 298 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: if you don't take yourself apart and really rip away 299 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: all the veneer and really look at yourself and understand 300 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: that you didn't like yourself and what you did and 301 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: how you've reacted in certain situations, that it's impossible to 302 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: build yourself back up. You know, you have to go 303 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: through that process. So when you look at some of 304 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: these other roads trading episodes that exists around the world. 305 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 1: You know Jerome Curvy a being one, and he still 306 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: blames the bank quick to add a boy still has 307 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: lots of issues that he's campaigning against. But they did 308 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: wrong that the libel rates fixed. You know, people who 309 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 1: work in banks, as I've mentioned already, are are amongst 310 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: the most intelligent people in the world, and they know 311 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: when they're doing something wrong. So when a lawyer stands 312 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: up and tries to convince the court that there was 313 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: a pressure to perform and they there's lots of other 314 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: mitigating factors, that's rubbish because these people know what they're 315 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,719 Speaker 1: doing they know they shouldn't be doing it, me included, 316 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: and for that reason, they need to be punished. And 317 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: if you don't punish people, you don't have deterrent, and 318 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 1: you know that what needs to happen. So I think 319 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: we do want to focus on, you know, how you 320 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: rebuild your life, um and your career. But since you 321 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: you up Jerome Curville and quickly at a bully at ubs, 322 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: and I'm just curious to get your take on this, like, 323 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 1: do you think there is a common thread that runs 324 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 1: through all these different modern rogue traders or is each 325 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: rogue trader scandal different in some way which I would 326 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: suggest that you know, for big financial institutions, there's actually 327 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: no one like silver bullet way of protecting themselves. I 328 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: think you hit the nail on the head there. I 329 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: don't think there is a silver bullet. I think you 330 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: can you can look up and people have done this 331 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: over the years. People have tried to look at personality 332 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: types and behavioral analytics and how people are behavior and 333 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: I think there's you know, there's very clear differences I 334 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: think between myself Curvial at a bully. There was there 335 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: was a guy the Gucci at di wo in New 336 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: York who was exposed around the same time as me 337 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: as well, so they've been during that period. There were 338 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: there were quite a large number. I think eventually the industry, 339 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: rather than trying to work out who potentially is going 340 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 1: to be then X road trader. It's about making sure 341 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: your controls and your systems are as robust and effective 342 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 1: as they possibly can be, and then you expose people 343 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 1: far sooner, which I believe is what happens within the 344 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 1: world of banking these days. There are still people who 345 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: post road trade, not on a daily basis, but it happens, 346 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: and people are just exposed a lot sooner and the 347 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: net effect of their actions is very, very limited. You know, 348 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: I think the day of these big excessive road trading 349 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: episode is a long way behind us because the industry 350 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: has changed. Compliance and mismanagement is better than it's ever been, 351 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: so I don't think there is a silver bullet. It 352 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: is about just making sure that you control as good 353 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: as they possibly can be, that you freshen them up. 354 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: You're not doing the same thing today that you were 355 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: two years ago, because if you are, you can guarantee 356 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: that somebody's circumventing those rules already. So it's about being 357 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 1: proactive and making sure that you're as good as you 358 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 1: possibly can be, and that's what everybody aspires to be. 359 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: It's just, you know, when you're looking at compliance and 360 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: risk management roles around the globe, not necessarily in any 361 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: particular location. You know, people don't like asking the difficult questions. 362 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: They don't like rocking the boat. They're getting paid a 363 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: big salary for for for not doing a great deal, 364 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: and maybe that's an incorrect characterization, but they don't want 365 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: to rock the boat. You know, people need to ask 366 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: the difficult questions if you think, if you see something's 367 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: going wrong or you're worried about something, you need a 368 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: voice that's being heard, and banking over the years haven't 369 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: and I'm not talking about the US or any particular location, 370 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: but so in the UK, banking hasn't encouraged that people 371 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: who are a little bit dissonant or disruptive and you 372 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: have a voice, you know, talking about your speeches that 373 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 1: you gave and the lessons that you've learned. There are 374 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: a couple other episodes in your recent career that are interesting, 375 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: including for several years you were the head of a 376 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: a soccer team or a football club Galway United. How 377 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 1: did that happen? How did you become the head of 378 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: a football team? Well, I mean it's a small The 379 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: football teams in Ireland are quite small, to be honest 380 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,959 Speaker 1: with you. So the now I live in Galway and 381 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 1: my wife said I was getting in a way at home, 382 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: wanted me to go and do something. And but that's 383 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: that's the genuine story. So I've been here for about 384 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: fifteen years since I've remarried, and you know, there's a 385 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: lot of big American buyers pharmacy companies around here, from 386 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: Shannon down to Galway, and but they're not things that 387 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: you know, that that I would be able to turn 388 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: my hand to. So apart from working in financial market, 389 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: the only other real interest that I've had is football. 390 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: So when somebody asked me to get involved with the 391 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: football club, I did, and you know it was a 392 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: bit of fundraising at first, and then I moved on 393 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: to become the chief executives of the football club and 394 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: then resigned from there in two thousand and ten. And 395 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: like I say, I mean, the mainstay over the last 396 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: fifteen to nineteen years has been the after dinner speaking. 397 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,959 Speaker 1: I'm involved in an online trading education business at the moment, 398 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: which has been going for three or four years, there's 399 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: lots of people doesn't really apply to to American citizens, 400 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: but lots of young people getting involved in spread betting 401 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: and CfDS and losing a lot of money because they 402 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: don't they don't really have any experience of the market there. 403 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 1: They're lurid in with some quite misleading advertising. So you know, 404 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: my name signifies more than anything else that this can 405 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: be really dangerous and you can releast a lot of money. 406 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: So I mean that makes sense in the context of 407 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: an online trading education system. But you were also on 408 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: the most recent season of Celebrity Big Brother in the UK, 409 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: and I'm just wondering how that came about, because if 410 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: you forgive me, you know, when I think about celebrities, 411 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily think about a rogue trader from the 412 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties. So what was the approach that they made 413 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: to you, and what do you think you brought to 414 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: that show? Can I just before you can I just 415 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: intervene here real quickly, because I don't think many people 416 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: probably do think of a former rug trader is just celebrity. 417 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: But my impression of UK media culture is that there 418 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: is a very large, enduring interest in just to be 419 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: blunt reality shows about what we would call c and 420 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 1: dealist celebrities and so people that aren't exactly the biggest names. 421 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: I get the impression state side that the media in 422 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: the UK is much more into oh do you remember 423 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 1: this name from the past, while here he is. So anyway, 424 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: you can answer Tracy's question, but in a way I 425 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: didn't find I didn't find it that surprising of a 426 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: of a choice. How dare you call kirstially a dealist 427 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: celebrity job lovely? I won't have a bad word said 428 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: about her. She you know, she was lovely throughout my 429 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: experience in the house. I think there's two things. I 430 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: think you're right. I think there's a lot of the 431 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: reality programs that we have in the UK. I think 432 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: you can even go lower than be and probably get 433 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: down to day, but they have things as well. So 434 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: for the thief that this year was was for people 435 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 1: that were caught in the eye of a storm, a 436 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: media storm, which obviously applied to me. And I think 437 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: if you look through I think there were thirteen people 438 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: that went into the house at the beginning and I 439 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: think mine was probably the biggest media storm at the time. 440 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: I mean, as you characterize at the beginning, it took 441 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 1: over the world's media for a period of time. So look, 442 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 1: for me, it was it was a bit of a 443 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: challenge for me. I It's twenty years since I've had cancer, 444 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: so you know, I was given a chance of living 445 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: for five years. So I you know, it's a bit 446 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: of a milestone for me. And it was one way 447 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: of marking that. They obviously pay you quite well for 448 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: your time on the program, so I'm not going to 449 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: not going to deny that part either. But the response 450 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,199 Speaker 1: has been a extremely positive and it's been good. And 451 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: I you know, I as you as you mentioned at 452 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: the beginning, I came forth. So Kirsty was one of 453 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: the people that beat me. Um. So yeah, look it 454 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: was I think it was a worthwhile experience. Okay, So Nick, 455 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: here's a question for you. Um. You know, you had 456 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: the Rogue Trade, which clearly um erupted into a media 457 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 1: storm as you put it, and ended in a jail sentence. 458 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: But after that you were able to rebuild your career. Um. 459 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: You were, you know, a motivational speaker, you were the 460 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: head of Galway United and you were on celebrity Um, 461 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: big brother. Do you think you're happier without with that 462 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: career outcome versus what would have happened if you had 463 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: been at Bearings without the rogue trading scandal, If you 464 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: had just been a successful trader at Bearings, which would 465 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: you have aft? I would definitely have preferred to be 466 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: the successful trader of Bearings, There's no doubt about that. 467 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: But you know, you have to look back on like 468 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: life has lots of different twists and turns, and you're 469 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: you're the sum of all your experiences. I don't have 470 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: to look away when I look at people. That period 471 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: of my life will always be the most embarrassing period 472 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: of my life. There's absolutely no doubt about that. But 473 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: I've dealt with it. I've faced it, um, so I 474 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: don't I can look people in the eye and move forward. 475 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to use the phrase to say that be 476 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: proud of myself, but that's not exactly right. I'm comfortable 477 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: and self confident in who I've become, but I'm not. 478 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: I'm certainly not proud of what happened during that period 479 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: between n because it's the complete opposite of what I 480 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: wanted to achieve. So the answer to your question is, 481 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: all things being equal, I would have preferred to be 482 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: the CEO of Bearings at this time, but you know 483 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: that at this point, unfortunately that is just wishful thinking, 484 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: because life, for lots of different reasons, primarily my own stupidity, 485 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: took took a variety of different terms. Nick Lisa, there's 486 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: been a fascinating conversation. Obviously, we've known your name for 487 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: years in the news and really appreciate you coming on 488 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: your candor and perspectives. Thank you very much for joining out. 489 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thanks Nick. That was great, Tracy, I really 490 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,959 Speaker 1: thought there was an interesting conversation. Like I said at 491 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: the end, you know Nick Lisa and is one of 492 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: those names I've just heard forever. In fact, I think 493 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: I can remember being in middle school when I guess 494 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: I was twelve years old and reading in the news 495 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: or seeing something on TV about the collapse of this 496 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: legendary multi century old bank Bearings and how it was 497 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: brought down by a trader in Singapore, and so to 498 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: actually hear the voice of that person and get their 499 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: perspective I thought was incredibly fascinating. Right, Well, I will 500 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: say I think you were a much more engaged twelve 501 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: year old than I probably was. But one of the 502 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: things that struck me a lot is, you know, this 503 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: notion that a twenty five year old trader basically brought 504 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: down one of the oldest merchant banks from Britain at 505 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: the time. And you know, as much as you want 506 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: to lay the blame on a single person, the notion 507 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: that any like year old could do that to a 508 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: single entity kind of speaks volumes about the controls that 509 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: were also in place of that company. Absolutely, and as 510 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: he as Nick pointed out, there have been multiple rogue 511 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: trader incidents or in recent years, and they're almost certainly 512 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: will be in the future because there's no silver bullet, 513 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: but they haven't been on the scale that they've brought 514 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: down an entire bank, And it seems kind of hard 515 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: to imagine. I mean, you know, knock on wood, but 516 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: it's hard to imagine in this day and age, when 517 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: they're so much more awareness of this and sort of 518 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: surveillance of traders, internal controls, things like that, that that 519 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: could happen. But you know, you are going back to 520 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: the small sort of satellite branch way out in Singapore, 521 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: different time zones than the people who were really running 522 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: the bank, you know, much less ability to sort of 523 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: watch everything in real time. It's almost not surprising that 524 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: that was eventually going to happen, right, But you're right 525 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: in the sense that we we do have additional measures 526 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: now that are aimed squarely at preventing this type of behavior. 527 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: And that's actually from what I remember, I think that's 528 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: how Quake coup At a bully, the ubs brogue trader 529 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: was initially found out. Was he went away on You know, 530 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: a lot of traders nowadays have two weeks mandated holidays 531 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: so that if they are cooking the books, those things 532 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: can actually come to light, and I think that's how 533 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: they found him. So clearly the industry is adapting to 534 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: rogue traders and is installing new methods of um finding 535 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: them out. But I guess the challenge is always um 536 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: sort of adapting and making sure that the traders don't 537 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: become used to your detection. Yeah, absolutely, I think. Also, 538 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: I just there are a number of people in the 539 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: sort of Nick Leason model of career rehabilitation that we've seen, 540 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 1: so you know, the Wolf of Wall Street guy wasn't 541 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: a rogue trader, but he got in trouble and then 542 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: he sort of goes around and talks about stuff. But uh, 543 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: without judging any of those other people, I did get 544 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: the impression that Nick is sort of totally honest and 545 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: upfront about what he did, and the fact that he 546 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: doesn't like sort of like pat himself on the back 547 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,439 Speaker 1: for having you know, some great insights or blame other people, 548 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: have felt like a sort of honest sincere reckoning and 549 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: assessment of his own career. Yeah, and I did think 550 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: it was interesting that he said, you know, if he 551 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 1: was given the ultimate choice between like his current comeback 552 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,399 Speaker 1: versus having been a legitimate trader um who rose through 553 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: the ranks of bearings, that he would have chosen the ladder. 554 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: That that kind of says a lot. Absolutely well. This 555 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: has been another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm 556 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: Joe Wisnthal. You've could follow me on Twitter at The 557 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: Stalwart and I'm Tracy Alloway. I'm on Twitter at Tracy Alloway. 558 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: And you should follow Nick Leason on Twitter. He is 559 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,879 Speaker 1: at the Nick Leason And don't forget to follow our 560 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: producer tofor Foreheads on Twitter. He's at Foreheads t as well. 561 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: As the Bloomberg head of podcast Francesco Levi at Francesca Today. 562 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.