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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust trust me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived to you and never a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to Trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and manipulation from two angry women who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth, and today our

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Speaker 2: guests are Felicia Rosario and Daniel Levin, survivors of Larry

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Speaker 2: Ray and his Sarah Lawrence sex cult. So today we're

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Speaker 2: going to discuss how they came to meet the charismatic Larry,

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Speaker 2: the ways in which he leveraged his photographic memory and

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Speaker 2: government connections to craft a persona of ultimate authority, and

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Speaker 2: how he slowly gained control of their minds and their lives,

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Speaker 2: all under the guise of helping them.

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Speaker 1: They'll tell us about how his manipulation escalated into sexual

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Speaker 1: abuse and ultimately horrific violence, how one night of being

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Speaker 1: alone led to Daniel finally leaving, and how they're both

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Speaker 1: doing now that Larry's finally going to prison for the

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Speaker 1: harm that he has caused.

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Speaker 2: Thanks God, right, yeah, thank God by Larry. I wish

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Speaker 2: we could have talked to them for so much longer,

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Speaker 2: but I love this interview because we got to really

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Speaker 2: talk about how he sort of really started to take

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Speaker 2: control of their minds, which I feel like is such

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Speaker 2: an important part of the picture. Like it's not just

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Speaker 2: about yeah, the actual physical abuse, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 2: and the and.

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Speaker 1: Their minds are so what people historically think of as smart,

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Speaker 1: so I can't really show what can happen to anyone.

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Speaker 2: I mean, they are smart, I know, I just mean

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Speaker 2: like Harvard like traditionally, Yeah, yeah, they have the like

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Speaker 2: qualifications technically for what you would consider smart person totally.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, of course they're newses, but you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean, so a million people that have gotten into

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Speaker 1: culs but they just didn't go to Harvard, and then

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Speaker 1: people are like they're dumb whatever, I didn't.

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Speaker 2: Go to Harvard, Am I dumb.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, very stupid. Oh thank you, I think.

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Speaker 2: Well, before we dive in with them, Megan, kindly tell

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Speaker 2: me you're cultiest thing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, it's definitely not good news, but probably a

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Speaker 1: lot of people have seen this in the news. The

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Speaker 1: actor from Dancing with Wolves, his name is Nathan Chasing Horrace.

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Speaker 1: He was arrested in his Las Vegas home. He had

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Speaker 1: five wives with him, some underage, and he's been running

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Speaker 1: a sex cult and essentially he's been using Native Americans

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Speaker 1: beliefs against them because he would go do spiritual ceremonies

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Speaker 1: and all these reservations across Canada and the US and

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Speaker 1: kind of be like, now I need to have sex

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Speaker 1: with someone. The story is very confusing and muddled, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's going to get more clear as more

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Speaker 1: stuff is released. But it sounds like he was having

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Speaker 1: sex with women are girls as young as thirteen, and

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Speaker 1: he had pills for his wives to kill themselves should

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Speaker 1: the police show up. So it looks like they narrowly

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Speaker 1: missed being part of a death cult because the police

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Speaker 1: got them Mountain time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, thank god. I mean, it just goes

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Speaker 2: to show that there's really no belief system that is

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Speaker 2: immune to the abuse of power, like any freakin religion,

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Speaker 2: any community like and I don't want to like, you know,

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Speaker 2: be a fearmonger or whatever, but it is kind of

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Speaker 2: everywhere and it can't exist in any community. And that's

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Speaker 2: why it's so important for us to, you know, be

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Speaker 2: mindful of group dynamics.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, wherever there's a good thing happening, somebody can twist

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Speaker 1: it and make it very bad.

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Speaker 2: I know. It just it's such a bummer when it's

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Speaker 2: like I mean, it's always a bummer. It's always a bummer.

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Speaker 2: But like when it's someone who's supposed to be like

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Speaker 2: a spiritual healers, you know, a spiritual leader of some kind. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but again, always a bummer. And every scenario it like

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Speaker 2: it's always under the guise of helping people. I mean,

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Speaker 2: at least very very frequently, I should say. Yeah, it

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Speaker 2: makes me sad that there are so many of these

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Speaker 2: usually men not always out there.

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Speaker 1: Yeap, very unfortunate, just messing with people's beliefs too. Yeah, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I know, what about what about you? What's the cultiest

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Speaker 1: thing that happened to you?

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Speaker 2: Nothing CULTI has happened to me. This week because I've

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Speaker 2: been in an editing hole. But I am emerging from

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Speaker 2: the editing hole and welcome, Thank you. I was just

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Speaker 2: really interested in this story that you actually alerted me

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Speaker 2: to about how there was a retired NYPD detective who

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Speaker 2: was just sort of talking about how internet sleuths are dangerous,

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Speaker 2: and so there's this article about how here's a quote

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Speaker 2: from him, sleuths don't know the standards of proof that

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Speaker 2: police departments rely on. They may end up violating somebody's

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Speaker 2: rights when doing these private investigations and inevitably might compromise

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Speaker 2: courtroom testimony and presentation. And there are just a few

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Speaker 2: instances in the article describing people who actually are now

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Speaker 2: being prosecuted for unethical websleue behavior and also people who

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Speaker 2: are being sued for like pointing a finger at someone

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Speaker 2: for a crime that they fucking did not commit. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so it's about the Idaho history teacher Rebecca Schofield who's

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Speaker 2: suing this TikToker for defamation. Good. There are like other

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Speaker 2: instances of this happening. And listen, like I know that

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Speaker 2: if a crime has been committed against you and the

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Speaker 2: police are not doing their job, or like the authorities

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Speaker 2: are just like not taking your case seriously. Like, I

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Speaker 2: totally understand the desire to get help from other people,

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Speaker 2: but there obviously are just people who take it too far,

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Speaker 2: people who make accusations without knowing what they're talking about,

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Speaker 2: just because things look a little funny. And as we know,

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Speaker 2: coincidences are not the same as actual evidence that would

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Speaker 2: hold up in court. So I just I appreciate that

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Speaker 2: there's some attention being called to it, even though of

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Speaker 2: course there are instances of it working.

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Speaker 1: I'm very curious to see what happens with this case.

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Speaker 1: I wonder what the punishment will be, since she's obviously

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Speaker 1: guilty and was really destroying this woman's life and saying,

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Speaker 1: I know you killed these kids.

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Speaker 2: Jesus.

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Speaker 1: Oh so scary.

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Speaker 5: I know.

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Speaker 2: Well, speaking of scary things, shall we let's do it?

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Speaker 1: Trust Me is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

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Speaker 2: Discounts not available in all states and situations. Welcome Felicia

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Speaker 2: Rosario and Daniel Levin to trust me. Thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for joining us today. First of all, you guys

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Speaker 2: have just been through so much, especially you Felicia. It's

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Speaker 2: very harrowing. Some of the footage that we have seen,

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Speaker 2: and I'm very grateful that you're even able to share

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Speaker 2: your story and be here with us today. Can you

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Speaker 2: guys kind of start us at the beginning. We can

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Speaker 2: go one at a time, just telling us what your

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Speaker 2: lives were like before you met Larry Ray. Can start

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Speaker 2: with you, Felicia.

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Speaker 5: Okay, my life before I met Larry.

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Speaker 6: I was had start in my internship, my residency in

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Speaker 6: psychiatry at USC. I had gone to Harvard on scholarship

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Speaker 6: and studied biochemistry and then took some time off and

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Speaker 6: went to medical school at Columbia in New York.

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Speaker 2: Pretty sweet education you have going before Larry, Right, that's

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Speaker 2: very cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what was like your trajectory? What were you hoping

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Speaker 1: life would turn out like before you met him?

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Speaker 6: Before I met him, I was planning to be a

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Speaker 6: forensic psychiatrist actually, so that was part of why I

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Speaker 6: went to USC in LA because it has one of

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Speaker 6: the best forensics training programs in the country. Yeah, and

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Speaker 6: I was planning to be a forensic psychiatrist to research,

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Speaker 6: work with the underserved, work with the disenfranchised.

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Speaker 5: That was a plan to give back to help as

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Speaker 5: many people as possible.

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Speaker 2: And Daniel. What was your life like before.

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Speaker 4: Larry substantially less admirable.

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Speaker 3: I was at Sir Lwrens College. I was eighteen years old.

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Speaker 4: I also there on scholarship, had just kind of barely

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Speaker 4: gotten in and was happy to just be figuring out

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Speaker 4: who I was at eighteen. You know, I was studying

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Speaker 4: these like classic liberal arts things like writing and poetry

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Speaker 4: and philosophy and literature, and like heaven.

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Speaker 2: The campus is just like these beautiful old buildings and

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Speaker 2: trees and.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: It was everything that I had kind of envisioned college

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Speaker 4: might be, like, yeah, the sort of rolling hills and

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Speaker 4: the big old stone buildings and friends. You know, it

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Speaker 4: was the first time that I was going to a

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Speaker 4: place where I was surrounded by people who were like me.

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Speaker 4: I grew up in a pretty conservative area and so

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Speaker 4: just starting to discover myself when I met.

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Speaker 2: Larry Ray right, and you met him first, right, You

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Speaker 2: were kind of living in the apartment when Felicia arrived.

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Speaker 2: How did you first meet? First of all, Larry's daughter Talia,

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Speaker 2: and then how did you meet?

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Speaker 4: Sure, So in freshman year, I made friends with Santos,

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Speaker 4: Felicia's younger brother. He was my freshman year roommate and

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Speaker 4: kind of my first friend at Sara Lawrence. He started

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Speaker 4: dating Talia Ray and so you know, they had like

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Speaker 4: a college relationship. And everyone knew that Talia's dad was

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Speaker 4: this guy Larry, who had been unjustly, according to her, incarcerated.

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Speaker 4: He was this incredible intelligence agent. He had done all

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Speaker 4: these amazing things and had been at the center of

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Speaker 4: this conspiracy. She'd been separated from her sister. This was

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Speaker 4: kind of the story that Talia would tell over and over,

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Speaker 4: and that was like her life to get back together

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Speaker 4: with her dad, and going into sophomore year, Talia kind

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Speaker 4: of spearheaded all of us getting group housing, which at

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Speaker 4: Sarah Lawrence you can apply to all live in a

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Speaker 4: house together as a group, which gives you a better

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Speaker 4: shot at just getting better housing. So we got to

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Speaker 4: move into this kind of townhouse type situation rather than

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Speaker 4: being lumped into dorms with other people called Sloan and Woods.

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Speaker 4: There were eight of us, and we learned towards the

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Speaker 4: beginning of that year, our sophomore year, that Talia's dad

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Speaker 4: was getting out of prison, and she asked if he

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Speaker 4: could come and kind of crash while he got his

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Speaker 4: feet back under him, and it felt like it would

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Speaker 4: be kind of horrible to say no to that. After

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Speaker 4: her whole she'd been living in homeless shelters, all these things.

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Speaker 4: All she wanted was to be back with her dad,

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Speaker 4: and so we kind of passively let that happen. And

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Speaker 4: that's how Larry Ray came into my life.

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Speaker 2: And can you tell us about your first impression of him?

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Speaker 2: What do you seem like?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I you.

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Speaker 4: Know, for me, off the bat, he mostly seemed really stressful,

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Speaker 4: you know, to be honest, he was just kind of

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Speaker 4: like he would talk a lot and really fast, and

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Speaker 4: it just seemed like he took up a lot of

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Speaker 4: my friend's time and attention. First sort of had Santos

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Speaker 4: and Talia, Larry's daughter and Talia's best friend Isabella, were

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Speaker 4: sort of in his orbit, and then later our friend Claudia,

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Speaker 4: and they just seemed to really glom onto him. And

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Speaker 4: I was dating my first girlfriend of you know, my

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Speaker 4: life really and was socializing and having fun and this

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Speaker 4: just seemed like a lot they were talking about, like

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Speaker 4: truth and justice and like fighting back against the powers

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Speaker 4: that be.

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Speaker 3: And it was just like too much.

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Speaker 4: So it's very happy to ignore that, but I was

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Speaker 4: ignoring what turned out to be a lot more than

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Speaker 4: just those conversations.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because it seems like that initial transformation with

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Speaker 1: Santos and Isabella was what really drew everyone in, and

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Speaker 1: I understand that. Can you tell a little bit what

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Speaker 1: happened to their demeanor after spending time with him?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it seemed like, you know, we're at Sarah Lawrence,

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Speaker 4: which is famously a very kind of liberal environment. It

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Speaker 4: felt like everyone had been pretty free spirited, but at

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Speaker 4: the same time was dealing with a lot of kind

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Speaker 4: of eighteen year old angst. You know, I knew that

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Speaker 4: Santos had the same kind of struggles that I did

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Speaker 4: as a young man, and it was pretty clear that

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Speaker 4: Isabella was struggling with some things that I would now

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Speaker 4: call like mental health issues. And suddenly they became a

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Speaker 4: lot more regimented.

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Speaker 3: I would say. It felt like.

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Speaker 4: They were kind of myopic, like single minded, and a

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Speaker 4: lot less fun.

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Speaker 3: Noticeably so.

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Speaker 4: But at the same time, they were talking really regularly

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Speaker 4: about how great Larry was, how much he was helping them,

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Speaker 4: how much the sort of problems they'd been dealing with

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Speaker 4: with themselves with their families were kind of all getting

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Speaker 4: cleared up. Everything was so much better, and they seemed

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Speaker 4: like school was going back her for them. You know,

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Speaker 4: it felt like there was evidence that something was changing.

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Speaker 4: It's just at the time wasn't the change that I

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Speaker 4: even really desired. I was perfectly happy to not be

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Speaker 4: doing great in school.

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Speaker 2: Right, And Isabella like seemed to have like a complete

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Speaker 2: transformation as a perclusive at.

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Speaker 1: Right and then dynamic.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that she was at first what you

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Speaker 4: might it's a reductive phrase, but what you might call

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Speaker 4: like an emo girl, kind of you know, the person

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Speaker 4: you recognize their hair is always in front of their face.

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Speaker 4: She's kind of like pretty retreated into herself, maybe a

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Speaker 4: little like scathing, you know. And Talia was like her

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Speaker 4: first really close friend who seemed to really see her

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Speaker 4: and make her feel like a person. And there was

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Speaker 4: something that seemed kind of beautiful about that. And Larry

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Speaker 4: became an extension of Talia and then this kind of

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Speaker 4: father figure for her, and that was really evident, like

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Speaker 4: very quickly, and all of the sudden, it did seem

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Speaker 4: like Isabella kind of came out of her show.

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Speaker 3: She was like very confident.

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Speaker 4: And very outspoken, and you know, had a big personality

293
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Speaker 4: and all of this happened, all this.

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Speaker 2: Sid wow, so yeah, so that I would have been like,

295
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Speaker 2: signed me up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it just happened.

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Speaker 2: What Sorcery, Oh he's helping he's helping all of these people.

298
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Speaker 2: Maybe he can help me.

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Speaker 1: And it showed like santost like kind of being in

300
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Speaker 1: the deck. That's so wonderful. I hope everybody sees it.

301
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Speaker 1: But like being hunched over and then his posture changes

302
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Speaker 1: and he's confident and and it just seems like, Wow,

303
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Speaker 1: I would want to talk to this person so badly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and pelics, Yeah, I would love to hear from you.

305
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Speaker 2: Since your siblings kind of knew him first, Like what

306
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Speaker 2: did you observe in them when they started spending time

307
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Speaker 2: with him.

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Speaker 6: I would echo what Dan said as far as my

309
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Speaker 6: brother goes, he was much brighter, happier, he was much

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Speaker 6: more confident, he had goals.

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Speaker 5: He was a different person.

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Speaker 6: He was the person that I mean, he would say

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Speaker 6: he was the person that he was that he had

314
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Speaker 6: always wanted to be, like he had gotten he had

315
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Speaker 6: gotten to that place because before that he had struggled

316
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Speaker 6: significantly with mental illness, and I'd had a suicide attempt

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Speaker 6: and was. I had been recovering from that and recovered

318
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Speaker 6: well enough, you know, to go to college and go

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Speaker 6: to a great school, but you know, there were still

320
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Speaker 6: vestiges of you know, everything that led up to that, right,

321
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Speaker 6: and that was that went for all of us, including myself.

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Speaker 6: But after Santo started talking to Larry, he was just like,

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Speaker 6: oh my god, you know this is still great.

324
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Speaker 5: Life is awesome. I want to try all these things.

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Speaker 6: Like it was hard enough to get him to try

326
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Speaker 6: like a different kind of sandwich, right, want to do

327
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Speaker 6: anything different. And then my sister, like Santo's introduced my

328
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Speaker 6: sister to Larry, and she also was very similar. She

329
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Speaker 6: had struggled to with depression and anxiety, and Larry just

330
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Speaker 6: like may like it felt like he snapped his fingers

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Speaker 6: and made life better.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's such an important piece of the

333
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Speaker 2: story because the thing with colts and the thing with

334
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Speaker 2: abusers is that at first it's great. At first it works,

335
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Speaker 2: like whatever they're offering you is effective, like for whatever reason,

336
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Speaker 2: sometimes they're pulling from legitimate psychology or you know, and

337
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Speaker 2: sometimes they're just providing a sense of community or sense

338
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Speaker 2: of purpose, but whatever the reason, it's working. And that

339
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Speaker 2: is why people get drawn and they don't get drawn

340
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Speaker 2: in like seeing him abuse someone, like, that's not what happens.

341
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Speaker 1: Right, And what the technique he had with Daniel first?

342
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Speaker 1: I mean, Daniel, your story is just like we were

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Speaker 1: talking today. That's just like we feel sick to our stomachs.

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Speaker 1: You guys have been through yeah, so so much or

345
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Speaker 1: such beautiful people, it breaks our hearts. But Daniel, so

346
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Speaker 1: you were you were in college or struggling, You're like,

347
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Speaker 1: am I gay? Am I not gay? And he draws

348
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Speaker 1: this diagram for you and is like are you attracted

349
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Speaker 1: to men? And you're like not really, and he's like, great,

350
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Speaker 1: then you're not gay and he just takes it away

351
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Speaker 1: and suddenly you said you felt like a million pounds

352
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Speaker 1: were lifted off of your chest, Like what what did

353
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Speaker 1: that feel like?

354
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Speaker 5: Well?

355
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Speaker 4: I think you know, we're all familiar with the feeling

356
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Speaker 4: of moving through life with no one definitively telling you

357
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Speaker 4: how anything works or what is true or false or

358
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Speaker 4: good or bad, how to be a good person, Like

359
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,960
Speaker 4: we the idea of they're just being actually one person

360
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Speaker 4: who if you can imagine actually trusting them, like really

361
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Speaker 4: believing that they do know and then they just tell

362
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Speaker 4: you this is who you.

363
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Speaker 2: Are and what your dream dream.

364
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's awesome, you know.

365
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, And this is what you're going to do with

366
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Speaker 4: your life, and I'm going to help you do it.

367
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Speaker 4: It's going to be great, you know. And just truly,

368
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Speaker 4: if it's so hard to imagine now because everyone seeing

369
00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,600
Speaker 4: all the horrible things that happen, but if it's possible

370
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Speaker 4: to sort of rewind to that moment and be like absolutely,

371
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,959
Speaker 4: if you actually believed that, what an incredible relief. This

372
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Speaker 4: is how people end up, you know, living under fascism.

373
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Speaker 3: But so, yeah, you.

374
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Speaker 4: Know, I felt anxiety about whether or not I was gay,

375
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Speaker 4: about my sexuality that I think probably the vast majority

376
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Speaker 4: of young men feel. I felt insecurity about my body

377
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Speaker 4: that I think is extraordinarily.

378
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Speaker 3: Common, all of these things.

379
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Speaker 4: And he offered black and white answers, you know, definitive answers,

380
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,880
Speaker 4: and it felt like, finally I can quell this anxiety

381
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Speaker 4: that I've been struggling with.

382
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Speaker 3: Now.

383
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,479
Speaker 4: Of course, as things progressed, having someone tell you some

384
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,320
Speaker 4: a simple answer that isn't actually accurate to the more

385
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,480
Speaker 4: complicated reality, it doesn't really work.

386
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Speaker 6: You know.

387
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Speaker 4: I kept having these questions sort of crop up and

388
00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:01,880
Speaker 4: then those sort of my questioning, uh pushed back against

389
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,400
Speaker 4: Larry's control, and so I'd escalated into abuse.

390
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Speaker 2: Well, I want to I want to talk about some

391
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:14,080
Speaker 2: of the ways that he did begin to exert control

392
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Speaker 2: over you. Daniel, and then Felicia, let's start getting into

393
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:17,639
Speaker 2: your story.

394
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Speaker 1: Yeah, when did it start to get bad? Because we

395
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,679
Speaker 1: first it got sexual. Correct, So you guys are at

396
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,600
Speaker 1: Sarah Lawrence. Then you then he gets an apartment in

397
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Speaker 1: the city, and that seems like it when it took

398
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 1: a turn for a little bit more extreme. So you

399
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,919
Speaker 1: are you guys are now staying at the apartment in

400
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,880
Speaker 1: New York City. And first he starts kind of narrowing

401
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:40,199
Speaker 1: in on sex with you.

402
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I can I can say, like, I so,

403
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,480
Speaker 4: you know, I first move into this apartment because it's

404
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,679
Speaker 4: in the simplest terms, it's just genuinely finding it so

405
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,239
Speaker 4: difficult to find an apartment in New York City, right,

406
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 4: and was just like, you know, it's going to Sarah Lawrence,

407
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:55,919
Speaker 4: which is just outside the city. It seems like the

408
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 4: thing that everyone all they're like cool kids do is

409
00:20:58,320 --> 00:20:59,160
Speaker 4: live in the city.

410
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:00,400
Speaker 3: What I didn't know was they.

411
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,680
Speaker 4: All had rich parents and I just can't.

412
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,600
Speaker 3: Tell you that, so you know it.

413
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,639
Speaker 4: Genuinely, it felt like I had missed a class on

414
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,320
Speaker 4: how to be a person or something. And Larry kind

415
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 4: of came in and was like, I can I can

416
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,080
Speaker 4: kind of catch you up, and I have this place

417
00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:22,960
Speaker 4: that you can live, and also your friends are like

418
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 4: staying over and hanging out there all the time, and

419
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 4: you know, everything's cool, so it's like fine, you know,

420
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Speaker 4: I'll crash on his couch until I figure it out.

421
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:40,360
Speaker 4: And Larry's introduced sex into this environment, so I'm sleeping

422
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,119
Speaker 4: on his couch essentially, is how I understand it. And

423
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:50,479
Speaker 4: for some context, I had known that Isabella kind of

424
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 4: had a crush on me.

425
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Speaker 3: Will you know, we were all.

426
00:21:53,760 --> 00:22:00,080
Speaker 4: Living in this dorm. I just wasn't particularly interested if

427
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:05,400
Speaker 4: he like sent her out into the living room to

428
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 4: perform oral sex on me. And I have a distinct

429
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 4: memory of feeling like frozen and like time was signed down.

430
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 4: I sort of didn't understand what was happening, and like

431
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 4: staying in this apartment, I kind of feel like I

432
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:25,199
Speaker 4: owe them something, like I don't want to cause trouble,

433
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 4: and then what would I do if I like can't

434
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:28,440
Speaker 4: continue to stay there?

435
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 3: I don't have anywhere else to go.

436
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 4: And so that was just like the smallest first step

437
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 4: into what escalated into kind of Larry claiming to give

438
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 4: me like a sexual education because I was had hang

439
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,680
Speaker 4: ups or was too like prude or needed to kind

440
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 4: of like get out of my shell. And you know,

441
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 4: it became very controlling and coercive and non consensual.

442
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, from top to bottom.

443
00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 2: It's God, it's so terrible. What were some of those

444
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 2: ways that you can see now that were him like

445
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 2: slowly getting control over you? Like, can you talk about

446
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 2: like isolating you from other people or in the late

447
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 2: night integrations, Like, I'm just curious about that process because

448
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 2: it does happen slowly. How does it get to the

449
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 2: point that it got to?

450
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 4: So for me, you go from like you're hanging out

451
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,239
Speaker 4: with your friends in college and sometimes you're having like

452
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 4: all nighters, or you're staying up until like sunrise and

453
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 4: this kind of thing. And now I'm in this environment

454
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 4: where we're staying up until sunrise, but we're talking instead

455
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 4: of just like hanging out and making jokes, we're talking

456
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 4: about like how to be a good person. And my

457
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 4: friend's fifty five year old dad is there and he's

458
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 4: kind of running the show. And then that shifts to

459
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 4: being like these conversations will be really focused on one

460
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 4: person and their relationship to their memories and their childhood

461
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 4: and what happened with their parents and you know.

462
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 3: How they behave and all these things.

463
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 4: The mechanism here for the more intense abuse I think

464
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 4: is basically shame. You know, he made me feel like

465
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 4: he said to me, you're not gay, you know, you're

466
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 4: a man, and then it was like up to me

467
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,239
Speaker 4: to prove it by going along with what he was

468
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 4: the context he was creating, the circumstances he was putting

469
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 4: me in. So you know, it was like, if you

470
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 4: want to continue to prove that you're the type of

471
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 4: man that I've said you are, and you're straight and

472
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 4: you're all these things, you will follow my lead.

473
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 2: So he first establishes himself as like an authority on

474
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 2: like everything. Basically he is the wise god literally everything. Marines.

475
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 2: So he was in the Marines, but he said he

476
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 2: was like this.

477
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 1: I thought he wasn't.

478
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 5: Oh he was.

479
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 4: He was in the Marines for like what was it

480
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 4: like nineteen days?

481
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, just his whole idea.

482
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 1: Yea, I didn't realize.

483
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 2: I mean technically true, but yeah, but that but like

484
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 2: he's you know, painting himself as someone who has been

485
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 2: a part of very high level government operations and he's

486
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 2: experienced a lot and he's been through a lot, so

487
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 2: he has all this wisdom. And I'm assuming he actually

488
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 2: did do some reading on things, because he seemed to

489
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 2: know about things, which maybe you can speak to Felicia.

490
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,479
Speaker 2: But so like he's establishing like I'm the authority, I

491
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 2: know about everything. You're all young. I know what to do,

492
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 2: I know what the answers are. And then he's creating

493
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 2: these goalposts for you because he has all this wisdom

494
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 2: and he knows what's best for you, for you to

495
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 2: live up to that continuously move right. It's like, oh,

496
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: you're not good enough, I'm going to tell you how

497
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 2: to be good enough. But then that of.

498
00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 6: Course it again, Yeah, he was very well read or

499
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 6: is again he is very well read. He's very educated

500
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 6: on many topics. Can carry on a conversation with anyone

501
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 6: with just about but just about anything.

502
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 2: M hm.

503
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,919
Speaker 6: And and it's true, I mean he would he would

504
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 6: challenge us and be like take a book off of

505
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 6: the shelf, like don't tell me what it is, go

506
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 6: to a page like and like read like three words

507
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 6: to me, and then I'll tell you the rest of it,

508
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 6: Like I'll.

509
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 5: Read you the whole paragraph. Whoa, And he actually had

510
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 5: his he I mean he did it all the time.

511
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 2: Did he just have a photograph photograph memory?

512
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 3: Oh?

513
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: Yes, he's very smart.

514
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 5: So he's very good that he knows a lot.

515
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 6: And then he can talk his way around what he

516
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 6: does anybody what he doesn't know exactly. And then he did.

517
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 6: He did know some people. He he did know people

518
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 6: in the government, he knew chief of police, chief of

519
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 6: police former and New York City detectives dagents, Like he

520
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 6: knew all these people. Yeah, and I met them and

521
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 6: they were They're like, Hi, I'm Larry's friend, right, you know,

522
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 6: how did he.

523
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 2: Know all of these people? How did this happen? Do

524
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 2: we know?

525
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 4: I think that the way that he operated for many

526
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 4: years is kind of this classic con man thing where

527
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 4: he was just leveraging one connection after another to just

528
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 4: kind of leap frog up. So it'd be like, you know,

529
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 4: he has someone he knew from childhood, he uses them

530
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 4: to get connected to someone who's a little bit more powerful,

531
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 4: and then he meets someone else and he claims he

532
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 4: knows this person and he just sort of bouncing back

533
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 4: and forth. And I think that a lot of a

534
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 4: lot of how you can understand Larry is that most

535
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,239
Speaker 4: of us have all kinds of other goals for our

536
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 4: lives and things that we care about and that take

537
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,719
Speaker 4: up our attention and time. If you're just like single

538
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 4: minded and all you care about is kind of trying

539
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 4: to achieve status for its own sake or power for

540
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 4: its own sake, you can you can get a long way.

541
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 4: There's a natural cadence to conversation, and I think we

542
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 4: all know the feeling of like waiting for a natural

543
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 4: pause when you can interject. And I think that if

544
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 4: you just imagine feeling that feeling for years, that's what

545
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 4: it was like, My God, to you, Larry Way, just

546
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,199
Speaker 4: someone who is so capable of ignoring all of the

547
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 4: etiquette that we've all learned our whole lives and just

548
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 4: never stops.

549
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,959
Speaker 2: The anxiety that that creates in me.

550
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: There's one of one hundred and twenty milligrams of adderall sometimes,

551
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 1: so wow, combining all of that shit together and you've got.

552
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you have us focused as actually slower.

553
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 6: He was slow slower on our home when he had

554
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 6: his one hundred and twenty miligrams.

555
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 5: You didn't want to talk to him before if he

556
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 5: didn't have his adderall. I was like, oh my god,

557
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 5: you didn't dig your adderall?

558
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 2: WHOA? Here was this what you were texting me about?

559
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: Saying the energy that this man had?

560
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: Yes, it was like how like I complete one task

561
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: a day and I'm like, I did it, and this

562
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: man is just like moving trees and like buildings and

563
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: like the smartest people I've ever seen are like, yeah,

564
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: I'm just like, whoa, I can't. I don't understand why

565
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: sociopaths have so much energy. It's can they give us

566
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: some of it? Please?

567
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 4: And yet at the same time, he got nothing done.

568
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: Exactly right right? They? Yes? Yes, yes, yeah.

569
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 5: She never finished anything.

570
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 6: He was never on time, like he could just he

571
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 6: could not get it together.

572
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 5: It's true the.

573
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 2: Time.

574
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 3: No.

575
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 2: Wow, Well why do you need a driver's license when

576
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 2: you have you know people you're abusing?

577
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 5: Who do first?

578
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 2: Yeah? So, Felicia, can you tell us about how you

579
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: first met him? How did how did then it all start?

580
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 6: So?

581
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 5: I met Larry through my sister and my brother.

582
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 6: I think that he had them, you know, engineer this

583
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 6: this dinner. So I came home from Los Angeles to visit,

584
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 6: and my brother was like, oh, we have to go

585
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 6: out to dinner with Larry, Like you have to meet

586
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 6: my friend Larry. And I was like, okay, sure's still

587
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 6: meet Larry. So it was the three of us and Larry.

588
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 6: We went out to an Italian restaurant and he was

589
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 6: just he was really just cheerful, really nice, charming kind

590
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 6: uh not not like how he ended up being obviously right.

591
00:30:59,040 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 4: He was.

592
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 5: He seemed great and he was really smart.

593
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 6: He he could keep up like conversations with me about

594
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 6: you know, all my medicine, my psychiatry, any everything, you know,

595
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 6: everything that I knew about.

596
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 5: So I it was, I was, it was cool. I

597
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 5: was like, you know, he's he's you know, I like him.

598
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 5: He's he's good. And my brother really likes him.

599
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 6: My sister is a fan. Then he took me back,

600
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 6: he took us, well all of us. We went back

601
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 6: to the apartment and we talked to him. We talked

602
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 6: for for a really long time. It was like till

603
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 6: two in the morning or something. We stayed up talking

604
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 6: and he played some songs for me. He was really

605
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:56,959
Speaker 6: into this music ah music therapy. So he you know,

606
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 6: he had learned about our family dynamics from talking to

607
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 6: Santos and my sister really Za, so he knew, you know,

608
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 6: the thing, what had been going on with my parents

609
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 6: and my relationship with my parents already.

610
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 5: So he plays these really.

611
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 6: Sad songs about like father daughter relationships and it's like

612
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 6: all of this Tori Amos, and I'm just like, oh

613
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 6: my god. So I'm like and I mean, it's beautiful

614
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 6: music and it's it's very emotional, right, So I ends

615
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 6: up crying. But the story that comes out of that

616
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 6: is not about the music, is that he ends up

617
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 6: saying afterwards that I confessed to him that my family

618
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 6: was out to get him, was working with Bernard Carrick

619
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 6: to kill him and tell yeah.

620
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: And he went to jail before, and Bernard was a

621
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: part of that. Correct, So in two thousand and three,

622
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: Larry went to jail. Bernard was part of this conspiracy

623
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: which was actually just a normal person should go to

624
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: jail for this. So so he's saying, yes, you told

625
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: me that Bernard, your family's working with him, and and right, okay, okay,

626
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: got it.

627
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 6: So then I was, so then this is where this

628
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 6: is where the poisoning plot starts, where he starts damn.

629
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, first night.

630
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, so he he's he already singles me out as

631
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 6: like the good one because I'm the one that came

632
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 6: and told him and like uncovered the plot, and then

633
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 6: everyone else turns into poisoners like you know, years down

634
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 6: the line.

635
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 5: But it's you know, he he.

636
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 6: Started, he had this in his mind very early on,

637
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 6: that there was some kind of the conspiracy theory against him,

638
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 6: and then he leveraged he leveraged that and everything else.

639
00:33:54,840 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 6: He made my sister and my brother believe against me,

640
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 6: against me and my parents.

641
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: Do you think he believed any of this or is

642
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: he just messing with you guys.

643
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 2: Just shaking her head. No?

644
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 5: No, yes, sorry video, Yeah, No, I don't. I don't

645
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 5: think he believed it. There were so many times.

646
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 6: When he's he has a great poker face, so he

647
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 6: can tell you things and it sounds like he believe

648
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 6: it's true. But but I've seen him do it to me.

649
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 6: Even he'll like he'll tell me something, He's like, I

650
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 6: was just kidding.

651
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 5: Like you believed me. I was like, yes, I believed you.

652
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 5: So No, I don't think he believed it.

653
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 6: It's because it was absolutely there was there was no basis,

654
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 6: there was no foundation, and he clearly had his own agenda.

655
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 4: The question about whether he believed what he said, I

656
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 4: think is really interesting. And also the reason that I

657
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 4: didn't leave for a really long time was because I

658
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 4: thought that I could figure out an answer to what

659
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 4: was going on in Larry's head and whether he believed

660
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 4: it or not, or whether this even if he didn't

661
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 4: believe what he was saying, it was part of a

662
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 4: program to help us, like he claimed all these things,

663
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 4: and it just turned out at a certain point that

664
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 4: that maze is doesn't have an exit on purpose. Yeah,

665
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 4: you know, it's like intended to be that absurd and

666
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 4: not navigable, and so the only answer just becomes like

667
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 4: I don't deserve to be hurt this way, and can

668
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 4: just stop it, you.

669
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: Know, right?

670
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: And how you stopped it as one of my favorite stories.

671
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: We have to get to that because it's so fascinating

672
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: and what we see a lot. Can we talk about

673
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: when you went back to Los Angeles Because you were

674
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: going to go back to Los Angeles, your life was

675
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: going to continue as normal, but you started being followed.

676
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: Is that so correct?

677
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:04,280
Speaker 5: Yeah?

678
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 6: So I went back to Ala because I was only

679
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 6: here for a few days to visit my family, and

680
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 6: then I was then I had to go back to work.

681
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 6: I was Was I still on psychiatry, Yeah, I was

682
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 6: still in my psychiatry rotations.

683
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 5: So I go back to Los Angeles.

684
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,280
Speaker 6: I start Larry starts calling me, like all the time,

685
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 6: mostly with the pretext of talking about how Santos is doing,

686
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 6: how my sister is doing. Because I'm I'm the eldest

687
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 6: and my parents worked a lot, so I was effectively

688
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 6: like the third parent, so I you know, so I

689
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 6: I I was really the person that was there for

690
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 6: my siblings, for both of them as while we were

691
00:36:55,560 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 6: growing up. So Larry so naturally and I and I

692
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 6: had a very good relationship with both of them. So

693
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 6: when Larry wanted to talk about something that was going

694
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 6: on with either of them that he would talk to

695
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 6: like a mom about, he would talk to me, and

696
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 6: so so that was a pretext, and then then we

697
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 6: got to talking about other things.

698
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 5: He was very interested in my work. I love my job,

699
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 5: so I was happy to talk about work.

700
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 6: And then and then it got to be I mean,

701
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 6: then then he he got you know, he got romantic,

702
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 6: and then he started saying I love you. It took

703
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:37,959
Speaker 6: maybe like two or three months and he started telling

704
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:43,399
Speaker 6: me I love you. But he'd I Now, I don't

705
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 6: know if I was being.

706
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 5: Followed or not nice ferience about, but I think I

707
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 5: don't think I actually was.

708
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 6: I think he got me so paranoid that I believed

709
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 6: that I was being followed, that I believed that people

710
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 6: were going to come after me. That I I mean,

711
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 6: and he would he planted it like we're not planted.

712
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 5: He said it constantly.

713
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 6: Well, you know, because you're talking to me like Kark's

714
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 6: going to be looking for you.

715
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 5: I was like, what are you talking about? What does

716
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 5: that have to do with anything?

717
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 6: And then it just he he just he persisted and

718
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 6: he just made this story and sorry, this is hard.

719
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:37,240
Speaker 6: It's hard to talk about, but because it's just so much,

720
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 6: you know, he he It didn't take long for him

721
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 6: to just make me paranoid or be or he was

722
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 6: paranoid himself. He was worried about me seeing other people.

723
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 6: He was worried about me, who I was having sex with,

724
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 6: who I was going out with, just like everything that

725
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 6: like a controlling like significant other does, Like that's what

726
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 6: he did, but it was like long distance, and it

727
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 6: was he was just he was so determined, Like he's

728
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 6: so good at controlling and like manipulating people really like

729
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 6: really like getting to your vulnerabilities and fears and weaknesses.

730
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 6: That like he was in my head and it was

731
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,240
Speaker 6: and there was very little I could do to to

732
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 6: fight back up until September of twenty twelve when he

733
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 6: broke me and I was like, okay, you're broken, now

734
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 6: you need to come to New York. And I had

735
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 6: no I had not no choice but to come back

736
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 6: and leave my job, you know, without any notice.

737
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 3: Wow.

738
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 2: So how how long were these conversations that he was

739
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 2: having with you?

740
00:39:58,840 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 1: Hours?

741
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, there were there.

742
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 6: Were, because I mean I worked during the day, as

743
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 6: you know, as and as a resident or as an intern.

744
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,439
Speaker 6: It's I'm working at least twelve hours a day.

745
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 2: Wow.

746
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 5: My weekends is like free time. Right. It would be

747
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,439
Speaker 5: like all all a whole.

748
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 6: Saturday from like morning tonight, and we would be on

749
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 6: the phone all day, wow, all day and he would

750
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,399
Speaker 6: just be asking me questions or berating me. I mean

751
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 6: it just went all sorts of ways. And then I

752
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 6: could just never get off the phone.

753
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:33,760
Speaker 2: Wow.

754
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 6: Yeah, somehow yeah, and then somehow he was still doing

755
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 6: everything else in the apartment at the same time while

756
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 6: he was talking to me, and just it was so crazy.

757
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 2: Right, It's like there were five yeah, oh yeah, Like

758
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 2: he was everywhere all at once. Yeah. I just want

759
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 2: to comment on the fact that, like, you know, this

760
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 2: isn't like you're having an hour conversation and he's in

761
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 2: your head, like he is taking up all of your

762
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 2: free time and hijacking all of your ability to think

763
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 2: for yourself because you have literally, even though you're not

764
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 2: with him, you have no time alone. And that is

765
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 2: that is the classic way that people indoctrinate people over

766
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 2: time is you just do not even give them a

767
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 2: chance to start to think critically at all.

768
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: Busy busy, So you're like, I have to go back

769
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: to New York. Someone's following me. I'm terrified, Daniel. Were

770
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: you still at the apartment at this time or had

771
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: you left yet?

772
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 4: It was yeah, we overlapped at the apartment for a

773
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 4: little while.

774
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: And what was it like at that point, what had

775
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: it started to become more chaotic? Had all this shit

776
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 1: started to come moving in? Because he was just like

777
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: compounding stuff in this apartment, and yeah, what was the

778
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: vibe there?

779
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, the way I think of it now is if

780
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 4: he started to make the interior of the apartment and

781
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 4: all of us like reflections of the inside of his

782
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,839
Speaker 4: own brain. So it became it was like hell was there.

783
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 4: Like it was just pile high with it was like

784
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 4: there were ten apartments in one apartment, you know, just

785
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 4: like so many boxes of random things and appliances and

786
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 4: tools and supplies. And then he'd bring in heavy duty

787
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 4: woodworking equipment, you know, a band saw that weighed I

788
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 4: think eight hundred pounds, like all these things. I don't

789
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,720
Speaker 4: even know how he got them into this apartment. So, yes,

790
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 4: it was highly chaotic.

791
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 3: By then you had people.

792
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 4: At first, you know, Santos was going back to his

793
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 4: parents at night, but then by then was he was

794
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 4: sleeping over a bond was sleeping over I was, you know.

795
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 4: So there's just like people sleeping on the floor trying

796
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 4: to just sort of make space around like paint cans.

797
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 4: It was totally out of control and not good for

798
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 4: feeling sane.

799
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 2: But what did he that all this stuff was in

800
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 2: there for.

801
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 4: Well, he claimed that the reason it was so chaotic

802
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 4: was that we were failing to organize the space and

803
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 4: that if he had an hour, he would fix everything,

804
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 4: but he had to let us figure out how to

805
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 4: do it or how to sort of better ourselves, and

806
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 4: that there was room for everything if you just figured

807
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 4: out how to organize it.

808
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: It makes me want to scream. It makes me want

809
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:27,879
Speaker 1: to scream.

810
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, everything is your fault. That's that's just the class

811
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 2: every no matter what it is, your you are the problem.

812
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 1: And I could fix it so easily. Yeah, but why

813
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: can't you?

814
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, but I'm going to make it a teaching lesson

815
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 6: and let you.

816
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 5: I'm gonna let you do it just so you learn.

817
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 1: Thanks.

818
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do it, Daniel. Can you talk

819
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 2: about the process, like how it began to actually turn violent?

820
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 4: Yeah? So, I think as is classic with the sort

821
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 4: of group coerceive control situations. There was a kind of

822
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 4: hierarchy that emerged, but that hierarchy was always shifting. Larry

823
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 4: was always at the top, but who was at the

824
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 4: very bottom would cycle, so it would be someone was

825
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 4: the scapegoat for everything. It was one person's fault that

826
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 4: the apartment was in chaos because they had been sabotaging

827
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 4: Larry and sabotaging everyone else's progress. You never wanted to

828
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 4: be that person, so you would do everything you could

829
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 4: to be good, And there was this feeling that everyone

830
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 4: had to be careful because someone else would tell Larry

831
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 4: that you had said something wrong or done something wrong.

832
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 4: I don't know how often that actually happened, but that

833
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 4: was the feeling. So there came a point when I,

834
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 4: you know, it had been in and out, but at

835
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,720
Speaker 4: a certain point I was very much on the bottom,

836
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 4: and it just happened that for whatever reason, I think

837
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:55,320
Speaker 4: that Larry was experimenting with how far he could push

838
00:44:55,360 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 4: it with me at first, or something. He had been

839
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 4: really extreme with everyone. So it's hard to say for me,

840
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 4: but it became about both escapegoating me for things that

841
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 4: had gone wrong. He claimed I had sabotaged his daughter's

842
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:20,359
Speaker 4: application to law school, among other things. But also it

843
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 4: became about my sexuality in a pretty intense way, and

844
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 4: about kind of fixing me, and everything just sort of

845
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 4: compounded all at once, So in my memory, it just

846
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 4: was like one thing after another, getting more and more

847
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 4: extreme until I left.

848
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 2: So can you describe for us how the cracks began

849
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 2: to emerge in your brain and ultimately led to you leaving.

850
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 4: So I first was starting to kind of doubt Larry

851
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 4: a little bit, and in simple ways that now in

852
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 4: retrospect feels silly, like he was obsessed with creating these

853
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 4: websites and that he was going to own all these

854
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 4: domain names and make all these websites and they were

855
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 4: going to make a lot of money. It just happens

856
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 4: that my dad's business, my whole life is designing websites.

857
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 4: So I knew. I was just like, these are bad websites.

858
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 4: These are the kind of websites that you land on

859
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 4: when you miss type Google.

860
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 3: Right, you know, and these don't.

861
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right.

862
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 4: It's a claim that he was making like millions of dollars,

863
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 4: and I just was like, there's no way that that's true.

864
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 4: And then once you start to question little like one thing,

865
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 4: it's like, well, if that's not true, then either he's

866
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,280
Speaker 4: lying about it or he doesn't know, and either way

867
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 4: something is wrong. And then you start to wonder, you know,

868
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:45,399
Speaker 4: what is he doing in the bedroom for all those

869
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,760
Speaker 4: hours with Isabella, or like, you know, all these things,

870
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:52,919
Speaker 4: And so that combined, I think that he could tell

871
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,280
Speaker 4: that I was doubting. He started like showing me photos

872
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 4: of him with Gorbachaw or a photo of him with

873
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 4: George hw Bush. He had a friend of his from

874
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 4: childhood get on the phone with me and tell me

875
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 4: about how amazing Larry was as a young man. All

876
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 4: these things, so it felt like he was trying to

877
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 4: prove something to me, but as I was still kind

878
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 4: of not getting with the program, he was escalating the

879
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:23,839
Speaker 4: physical violence. So, you know, towards the end, there was

880
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 4: a night that he made what he called.

881
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 3: A garat out of.

882
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 4: Saran wrap and aluminum foil and like wrap that around

883
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 4: my groin and was tightening it in front of my friends,

884
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 4: trying to get me to admit to some sabotage. There

885
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 4: was the night that he, you know, put me in

886
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 4: a dress and made me like try to swallow a

887
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 4: dildo like and say that I wasn't gay anymore. All

888
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 4: these things, And so there was one day that for

889
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 4: some reason I was up and no one else was

890
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 4: and or people were out of the apartment, and I

891
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 4: went up to the roof of this building. This is

892
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 4: on the upper East side of Manhattan. It's like the

893
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 4: forty five story building, I think, and I don't really

894
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 4: know it was just sort of an impulse. I went

895
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 4: up to the roof and then as it saw a ladder.

896
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 4: And this is also pre Larry, a person who likes

897
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:23,359
Speaker 4: climbing up and finding high blazes. You're a cat, yeah,

898
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 4: I'm a cat.

899
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 3: Yeah.

900
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 4: And so you know, I climbed this ladder and it

901
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:29,839
Speaker 4: was like, oh, this is kind of cool, Like I'm

902
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 4: getting up on this highest building in this area. And

903
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 4: then there's a water tower. I got to the top

904
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 4: of the water tower. And something that Larry had claimed

905
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 4: the entire time that I knew him was that we

906
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 4: were all suicidl whether we kind of knew it or not,

907
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 4: that it was an impulse we couldn't control, like a

908
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 4: switch in our brain, and it could happen kind of

909
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 4: any time, and his help, the whole point of his

910
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 4: help was that he was protecting us from ourselves, and

911
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 4: that if we weren't careful, or that if we got

912
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 4: away from him, we would impulsively like step onto the

913
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 4: train tracks or something like that, and he would play

914
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 4: it on that feeling.

915
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:08,800
Speaker 3: You know, I think we all get.

916
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 4: That sort of call of the void where you like

917
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 4: you're holding your keys and you kind of want to

918
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 4: drop them. Down like a grate. He just kind of

919
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 4: was like, you know that feeling like that's weird you.

920
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 4: No one else has that, just you, And he claimed

921
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 4: that if one of us did it, we would all

922
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 4: do it. So I was up there on this water

923
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 4: tower and was like, if I really wanted to kill myself,

924
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 4: you know, I'm four hundred and fifty feet in the air,

925
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 4: I'm on the edge of this thing, I could absolutely,

926
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 4: very easily do it. And I was like, do I

927
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 4: want to honestly, given everything else, and I didn't. I

928
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 4: was like, I don't want to die, and I and

929
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,280
Speaker 4: that's it's not true. And so if that fundamentally isn't true,

930
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 4: and it's at the heart of everything he's cleaned this

931
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 4: whole time, then a lot of other things must not

932
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 4: be true. And either way, I'm being harmed and it

933
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 4: feels dangerous and I don't want to I feel like

934
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:01,919
Speaker 4: it's going to get worse and I want to live.

935
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:03,919
Speaker 4: And so I felt like I had to just try

936
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 4: and figure out a way to get away without him

937
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 4: following me, and so that became a whole other pursuit.

938
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 1: It's just so interesting that you just needed like a

939
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 1: couple hours by yourself to get your brain back. That's

940
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: how busy I've and exhausted and everything I feel like.

941
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, definitely interesting that he would be in

942
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 1: your head so often and then you got away for

943
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:34,399
Speaker 1: a minute, got out.

944
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 2: Let me see that. A lot a lot of stories

945
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:38,919
Speaker 2: began with just like a little bit of alone time.

946
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: The pandemic made a lot of people leave the cult

947
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: I was raised in because they weren't programmed every five seconds.

948
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 1: So anyway, very interesting. So you're yeah, he's you're back

949
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 1: in the real world. You go back to school, whileas Felicia,

950
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 1: your life is just beginning to ramp up into madness.

951
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, talk about that time and how he had

952
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 2: sort of hijacked your brain essentially. At that point, he

953
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 2: seemed like such an so skilled at convincing people they

954
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 2: were crazy that there was something wrong with them, you know,

955
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 2: because yeah, tell us about that.

956
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, so it started.

957
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 6: It started before I came back here, you know, before

958
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 6: I came back to New York in September of twenty twelve.

959
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:33,360
Speaker 6: And within the month we went on, he had me

960
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 6: drive him to Washington, d C. To meet his friend,

961
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 6: who actually was a marine, a lieutenant general in the

962
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 6: Marine Corps retired.

963
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 3: He had to do that too. I didn't realize that you.

964
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 5: Were same friend I did.

965
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 1: Wow, huh same same guy.

966
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 5: But yeah, Larry, yeah yeah, same guy, yeng nuy. Yeah.

967
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 5: He was awesome. The guy was awesome. Not Larry, yes, no,

968
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 5: of course, but so I.

969
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 6: He he he yells at me and gaslights me the

970
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 6: whole way down and he has me meet you know,

971
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 6: and we get there and then we meet his we

972
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 6: meet some more law enforcement friends and he's like, this

973
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 6: is he. This person's from the DA, the Navy, CEL, FBI,

974
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 6: all of these, you know, branches of government. He's like,

975
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 6: you know, if anything ever happened to me there, they

976
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 6: would they would come after you. If you ever did

977
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 6: anything to me, they would come after you. And he

978
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 6: got on me for like a whole other day and

979
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 6: he made me suicidal. Like the next at night when

980
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 6: we went to sleep, I got up and I went

981
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 6: and bought a bunch of child all and took it.

982
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 5: I took it and I found a river and.

983
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 6: I was trying to I'm not going to be too detailed,

984
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 6: but the point was I did have Unfortunately I did

985
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 6: end up taking the title in all, but I did

986
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:12,959
Speaker 6: have my moment of wait a minute, I don't want

987
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 6: to die, and I got out. I clawed myself back

988
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 6: to the street. The police found me and then they

989
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 6: took me to the hospital, but then Larry got to

990
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 6: the hospital and he hijacked the whole hospital visit. He

991
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 6: told the doctors that I was tried to kill myself

992
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 6: because of my mother, and like made all of this

993
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 6: stuff up and then had me taken out.

994
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 5: Against medical advice.

995
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 6: And then used and then used that as leverage over me,

996
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:48,479
Speaker 6: saying like you'll never be a doctor again.

997
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:50,720
Speaker 5: Who's ever going to hire a doctor who.

998
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 6: Trying to commit suicide? And then you know, like Daniel

999
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 6: was saying about the scapegoat since he couldn't get me

1000
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 6: to do what he wanted all the time, because he

1001
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:09,320
Speaker 6: was really he was trying to groom all of us

1002
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 6: and to have this sexual grooming, and I didn't cooperate.

1003
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 6: I ended up the scapegoat, especially after Daniel was gone,

1004
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 6: so he would he would beat me, he would starve me.

1005
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 6: I spent a week in Pinehurst out on the porch.

1006
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 6: He left me out on the porch without food or water,

1007
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 6: with like a blanket, and I wasn't allowed to leave

1008
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 6: the property, otherwise he was gonna call the police. Oh

1009
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 6: my gosh, she would punch me in the face like

1010
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 6: he would like regularly. It just it went on. It

1011
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 6: was just it went on and on. Like almost anything

1012
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 6: you could do to somebody he did to me.

1013
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 2: And there is a footage of some of this stuff

1014
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 2: which is just fucking horrible to see. I'm also glad

1015
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 2: it exists for court for the case so that he

1016
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 2: cannot continue to gaslight people. I'm so glad, But but

1017
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 2: what an idiot, What a dumb move on his part

1018
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 2: filming all of his abuse.

1019
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 6: No, I mean, and he swore he was, He swore

1020
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 6: it was gonna he was going to be vindicated with

1021
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 6: all of this foot is.

1022
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 5: He was like, no, I'm good brilling how crazy.

1023
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 6: Everyone was towards me, and how badly behaved everyone was

1024
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 6: towards me, and everyone's going to go to jail because

1025
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 6: they hurt me.

1026
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:32,840
Speaker 1: Ultimately, he would say, Ultimately, do you think that this

1027
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:35,439
Speaker 1: was about sex for him? Because he did. He ended

1028
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:37,800
Speaker 1: up stealing so much money from all of your parents,

1029
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: turning all of you again, like he told you of Felicia,

1030
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:44,799
Speaker 1: that your your siblings were poisoning you. And he really

1031
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 1: tried to separate you from your families. So I just

1032
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:48,240
Speaker 1: wanted to know, do you guys know like a motive

1033
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 1: or do you know what the hell was he doing?

1034
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 4: Power I mean, I don't know if you want me to, Daniel,

1035
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 4: I don't think there's a really good answer for this.

1036
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 4: The way that I thought about it is, however you

1037
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 4: want to think about, like what he believed or what

1038
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 4: he thought was true or wasn't whatever. He's clearly like

1039
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 4: a sick person, and I think that I think of

1040
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 4: it as someone who whose sickness was contagious and he

1041
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 4: just like needed to figure out a way to make

1042
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 4: us psychotic like he was, to make us delusional like

1043
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 4: he was. But I don't know, you know, it seemed

1044
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 4: like someone who was incapable of surviving in regular society

1045
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 4: and who was trying to like force his way into

1046
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 4: a version of survival, and who seemed to derive some

1047
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:37,720
Speaker 4: kind of pleasure or satisfaction from torturing other people.

1048
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,359
Speaker 2: I just would love to hear how you guys are

1049
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:45,280
Speaker 2: doing now now seeing that he is actually being prosecuted

1050
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 2: and you're you're sharing your story, like, how are you please?

1051
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 5: Ya?

1052
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:56,320
Speaker 6: Oh, okay, I'm doing I'm so happy, really, that happy

1053
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 6: as the word elated.

1054
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 5: He was just sentence.

1055
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 6: January twentieth, sixty years in prison. He's sixty three, so

1056
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 6: they could get out at one hundred and twenty three

1057
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 6: years old, effectively life and supervised release. So I mean,

1058
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 6: I'm just so glad the justice system worked and the

1059
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 6: judge really nailed it. He really he was really able

1060
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 6: to see the truth and and you know, stand by it,

1061
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 6: and I felt so validated.

1062
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 2: I'm so glad we get.

1063
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 4: We get to be in the very small group of

1064
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 4: people who can say that they put their abuse or

1065
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 4: in prison, and a very small group of people who

1066
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 4: get to say that they put their cult leader in prison.

1067
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 4: And that's it's unbelievable. And I hope that more people

1068
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 4: get to say that.

1069
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 2: I know, oh my god too. But I'm so I'm

1070
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 2: so happy that just this is actually being served. You

1071
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 2: guys deserve it so much for what you've been through,

1072
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 2: and I yeah, I once again, I very much, we

1073
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 2: very much appreciate you coming on and sharing your story.

1074
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 1: What do you feel about Isabella being prosecuted, Talia being prosecuted?

1075
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: What what is your feelings on that you don't have.

1076
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 3: To do you don't know, do you want to go?

1077
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 5: Sure, I'll go, I'll go.

1078
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 6: I think with you know, with Isabella, she was his

1079
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 6: first victim, and you know, she he he had He

1080
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 6: got her in a very vulnerable time and she was

1081
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:48,680
Speaker 6: so young, and then she didn't know anything but Larry

1082
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 6: of life, like the only life she ever knew was Larry.

1083
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 5: So I understood why she went the way that she did.

1084
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 6: I just I hope that I hope that as time

1085
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 6: passes and you know, she sees the series and sees,

1086
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:06,920
Speaker 6: you know, how everyone else is doing that, she starts

1087
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 6: to make better choices for herself. Yeah, but I think

1088
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 6: you know, what Larry made her do is like is

1089
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 6: a prison sentence in and of itself, like having to

1090
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 6: live with that.

1091
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, and then Talia, I don't, I don't really know.

1092
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 6: With Talia, I think she was just so unfortunate to

1093
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 6: be born to him that you know, what, what did

1094
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 6: what choice? You know, we're talking about choice, like what

1095
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 6: choice did she really have? And you know, fighting back

1096
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:37,800
Speaker 6: against her dad.

1097
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 2: So it's an incredibly arthetic perspective to take. Yeah, yeah, wow, Okay,

1098
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 2: do you so the series is stolen youth inside the cult.

1099
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 2: It's Sarah Lawrence on Hulu. And do you guys have

1100
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 2: anything of your own that you'd like to share in

1101
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 2: terms of like social media or any work that you

1102
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 2: do or anything. Daniel, go ahead, Daniel, you do.

1103
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:01,800
Speaker 4: Poetry, Yeah, I doot.

1104
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1105
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 4: I have a memoir that I had written about this

1106
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 4: called the London Woods nine, which is a reference to

1107
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 4: the dorm that we lived in or where I first

1108
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,600
Speaker 4: met Larry. I don't really have anything to share as

1109
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 4: far our social media. I'm teaching a class with Stanford's

1110
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 4: Continuing Education Program on converting your most difficult memories into

1111
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 4: uh memoir.

1112
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:37,160
Speaker 3: Class top before. I find narrative really helpful.

1113
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 2: Totally, that's awesome and anything.

1114
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 6: So I'm just working and trying to get back into

1115
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 6: life right now.

1116
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:49,600
Speaker 2: Okay, wonderful.

1117
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 5: Next time I'll let you.

1118
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 2: Know that's a that's a great place to be get

1119
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 2: back to life. Thank you guys so much for talking

1120
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 2: to us today. Thank you, and have good rest of

1121
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 2: your day. O. Hey, Megan, so obviously so much more.

1122
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 2: I wish we could have asked them, but for now,

1123
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna ask you a question, okay, And the

1124
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 2: question is do you think that if you were at

1125
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 2: Sarah Lawrence and you met Larry Ray that you would

1126
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 2: have joined his group?

1127
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: Oh my god, yes, goodbye forever. I would have been

1128
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 1: so deep and getting attention from a grown up. Yeah,

1129
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 1: especially one that's so wise. And I love slumber parties.

1130
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:30,600
Speaker 1: I love when everybody puts little palettes on the floor

1131
01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:32,920
Speaker 1: and sleeps together. To just live that way would have

1132
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 1: been heavenly. I would have loved the community. I would

1133
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 1: have loved his like we're getting up at six and

1134
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 1: doing push ups together, and I would have just been

1135
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:46,480
Speaker 1: sucked into getting my shit together. Uh forever.

1136
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 2: You know, it sounds like you should join the military.

1137
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about it. Can you imagine.

1138
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 2: Sleepovers every night, lots of structure.

1139
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 1: Laurene men yelling at me. Yeah, I definitely, I definitely

1140
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 1: would join. I think you would too.

1141
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 2: Huh oh, yeah, I think so for sure. I think

1142
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:13,320
Speaker 2: like I have a I have a like I would say,

1143
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 2: I don't know what adjective to use. I have an

1144
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 2: inordinate respect for authority that I really like. I have

1145
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:25,320
Speaker 2: been like I am the kid who is terrified of

1146
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 2: getting in trouble with the teacher, but not only terrified

1147
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 2: of getting in trouble with the teacher, but I will

1148
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 2: try so hard to make them like me, you know,

1149
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,840
Speaker 2: like I want the authority figure to like me. And

1150
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:37,840
Speaker 2: if a man were to come along at that vulnerable

1151
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:40,640
Speaker 2: time in my life and be like, here's what you

1152
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 2: gotta do. I know these government people, here's my photo

1153
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:48,000
Speaker 2: with real politician like I would be. I would be in.

1154
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 2: I would be sold, especially because I don't know, like whatever.

1155
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 2: I have a history of being drawn to men with

1156
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:54,000
Speaker 2: authoritative tones.

1157
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 1: In their voice.

1158
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:57,160
Speaker 2: And yeah, it would not have been good for me.

1159
01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would have been I would have been super

1160
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:00,160
Speaker 1: fox with him.

1161
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, thank god he can't keep doing this to people.

1162
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 1: Now put him away. Well, thank you for being here

1163
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 1: with us for another week of Trust Me. We can't

1164
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 1: wait to see you again next time, and as always,

1165
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:15,480
Speaker 1: remember to follow your gut, watch out for red.

1166
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:24,560
Speaker 2: Flags, and ever ever trust me. Bye bye. Trust Me

1167
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:27,760
Speaker 2: as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator,

1168
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 2: with special thanks to Stacy Para and our theme song

1169
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:33,080
Speaker 2: was composed by Holly amber Church. You can find us

1170
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:36,600
Speaker 2: on Instagram at trust Me Podcast, Twitter at trust Me

1171
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:40,520
Speaker 2: Cult Pod, or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.

1172
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1173
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 1: And I Am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1174
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1175
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.