WEBVTT - Why we need a COVID memorial day 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.200 I can't help but look at this as a dramatic 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:08.119 human failure. In the long term, I think we have 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:12.360 to basically say how much we've failed and figure out 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:14.840 how we're going to do better next time. And I 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.560 think doing better next time we could say, let's start 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.959 trusting each other and caring about each other. You know, 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:21.599 it's it's a real test of how much do we 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:25.040 care about sacrificing of ourselves, not going out, not seeing 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:27.760 our friends, and so on for the good of other people. 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:32.360 Has pushed so many of us to the brink that 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:36.840 collectively it feels like this year cannot end soon enough. 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:40.360 I report on politics, I report on business, I report 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:43.319 on breaking news and culture, and over the last ten 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:48.000 months it has been an extraordinary time for this country. 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:50.800 One of the big issues, though, when the clock strikes 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:55.600 midnight and hits our problems aren't over. We are in 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:59.480 a national crisis. Look at how we've responded to COVID. 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:03.800 In many ways we have absolutely failed. So here we are, 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:06.560 with the new year ahead of us. I want to 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:10.880 ask the question, what can we do to be better, smarter, 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:16.280 behave better as individuals, as communities, as governments, as businesses. 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.480 On this episode, of Modern Rules. We're looking at what 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:22.920 motivates people in a crisis and what our response to 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:27.160 COVID can teach us about our own human behavior. I'm 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:31.399 Stephanie Rule, MSNBC Anchor, NBC News Senior correspondent, and this 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:34.480 is Modern Rules, a podcast from NBC Think and I 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:44.200 Heart Radio. Right now, We're in a situation where our 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:50.120 behavior impacts our friends, our neighbors, are coworkers, health, their lives, 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:53.800 their livelihoods. So how are we behaving? To dive into 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:56.840 this topic, I'm joined by one of my absolute favorites, 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:00.920 Dan Arielli, an expert on human behavior here. He's a 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:05.480 professor of psychology and behavioral economics at Duke University, So basically, 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.600 Dan is an expert on why we do the things 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:14.080 we do. Daniel, you have been on my mind for 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:17.680 the last few weeks because you study human behavior and 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:21.640 how we respond to COVID, whether we actually isolate, whether 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.399 we contact race, whether we wear a mask that impacts, 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:29.120 whether this thing spreads. So when you look at the pandemic, 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:32.120 what stands out the most to you about the way 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:35.120 we've reacted as a society. I look at it and 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:37.040 I think we have failed and we felt in so 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:40.080 many ways. I mean, there many many reasons for the failure, 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:42.960 and it's not just in the US. But if you 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:46.960 think about the essence of pandemic, pandemic is what's called 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:50.280 the social good problem. The problem is that we do 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:53.640 things that are not just for ourselves in the show term, 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:56.840 they're good for society in the long term. And comedies 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:01.480 like that. So if you're in your early entees, your 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:04.959 chance of dying from COVID is very low. But now 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:08.480 we tell you, please stay at home, please keep social distancing, 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:12.680 Please don't go out, not because of you, but because 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:16.400 it's really bad for other people. Now you have to 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:19.960 decide to care about other people. And what happened if 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:22.440 we see some other people who are doing that, So 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:25.240 we say, are we the only suckers? Like we are 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:28.400 going to behave well and keep a social distance and 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:30.560 wash our hands and not go out and do all 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.840 of those things when other people are. We feel that 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:37.480 we're paying a price, um and nobody else is doing it, 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:39.280 so then then we don't do it as well. So 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.960 one one big element of this thing is the lack 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:47.560 of social cohesion. One big element of this is the 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:51.040 lack of trust and then, of course, the other is 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:54.560 that it became political and it became a question of 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:59.000 ideology of yes, mass no masks. People were told do 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:02.640 not travel over and over and yet airlines saw their 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:06.080 highest numbers in a year. We might see the same 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:09.000 thing come Christmas. Why is it so hard for people 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:13.880 to follow orders? So let's talk about Corona is a 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:17.960 low probability event, and let's let's think about something else, 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:21.560 like texting and driving. So imagine that you think the 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:24.440 probability of texting and driving and something that happens about 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:27.920 one So it's a lot of probability event, and one 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:32.240 day you text and drive and nothing happened because the 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:36.240 probability is very low. What is your experience of that. 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.560 We get description of what's the frighting and not frightening 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:43.440 from the news from the media, But our experience with 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:48.000 texting and driving is that it's not that dangerous because 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:50.679 every time we do it, nothing that happened until it happened, 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:52.479 and of course it's too late. The same thing is 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:56.279 true with COVID. But the experience of low probability event 0:04:56.400 --> 0:05:01.040 is is an experience that rewards bad behaved of You 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:04.400 imagine that in the beginning you're very afraid, and you 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:07.000 wear a mask, and you wash your hands ten times 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:11.120 a day, and you keep social distance, and one day 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.760 you forget your mask and nothing happened. Because it's a 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:18.479 lot of probability, even we say, hey, it's not as dangerous. 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:22.880 So what happened they experience during CONFID is nothing happened, 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:26.560 Nothing happened, nothing happened. It must be not as dangerous, 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:29.279 or maybe I had it before, or maybe it's not 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.320 as risky, or maybe I don't trust the news. Most 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:34.240 of the time, when we don't do what we're told, 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:38.880 we get the wrong lesson. So the experience if it 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:42.239 was easier to catch COVID, if every time you didn't 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:46.960 wear a mask, wash your hands, and kept social distance, 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.360 you would get COVID. People would learn very quickly. How 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:54.040 much to the people around us influence our behavior? Right, 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:57.600 it seems like some towns and cities almost a h 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:03.320 mask compliant, and other cities you've got rallies against it. 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:06.520 People aren't wearing them. There's anger. How much do one's 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:11.880 community influence how they respond to COVID? From a social perspective, 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.359 we observe more the people who misbehaved in the people 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:21.440 who behave Think about driving, and let's say you drive 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:26.280 down some highway and five cars drive extra fast and 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:30.320 pass you. Do you pay attention to all the cars 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:34.400 of the speed limit? Not as much. You pay more 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:38.359 attention to the cards who are breaking the law. And 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:41.760 the same thing happens with COVID. We are more sensitive 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:43.480 to the people who are breaking the rule. We pay 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.360 more attention to them, we see them, they become more 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:50.880 sell And then finally, of course, when some of our 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:56.560 political leaders or even some celebrities, people in high positions 0:06:56.600 --> 0:07:02.800 of visibility don't adhere year, we we see those as 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:06.839 very vivid examples. We are dramatically influenced by the people 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:10.240 around us, and we mostly noticed the people who are 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:16.240 miss misbehaving. But the second thing you mentioned before unfair. 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:20.160 And you know, if if I and contributed to the 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:23.840 public good, and I'm saying, look, I'm sacrificing myself, I'm 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:26.240 staying at home and so on, but they see other 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:28.800 people not doing it, why should I do that. One 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:32.360 of the other things to consider is the loneliness and 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:36.640 the economic impact. Well, it's those two things that have 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:40.360 caused so many people not to comply with the rules. 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:43.680 So are we looking at loneliness or economic impact in 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:46.880 the wrong way. Imagine somebody who's closing their store or 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:50.640 only doing delivery on something and they see the person 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:56.120 next to them opening the restaurant, let's say, serving people inside. 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.560 The other guy said, why am I sacrificing? Why am 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.960 I sacrid finding myself when like these people would get 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:06.960 sick in my neighbors restaurant. So we also we also 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:09.800 need the sense that this is something that everybody is doing, 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:12.280 and when some people are doing it and some people 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:16.080 are not, the force is also very strong to stop adhering. 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.440 And because we pay more attention to the people who misbehave, 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.920 they become a bigger, bigger issue because they're polluting the 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:27.440 pool already. And that's a rational reason, right because you say, look, 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.960 I am dropping the bucket. It only makes sense to 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:34.480 come together as a community if everybody is doing it. 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:37.360 So so what other people are doing in a pandemic 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:41.240 is extra important because if we see other people misbehaving, 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:45.239 we feel like suckers. But has it been a complete 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:49.400 failure on the part of society, because many, many people 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:53.160 have dramatically changed their behavior, especially in the early months 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:56.520 of COVID, for the most part we shut down. So 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:59.680 on some level, isn't that a massive success that we 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:02.560 saw in the American people? So I think we we 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:08.160 started talking about safe behavior in the wrong way. We 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:12.640 talked about it as saving yourself rather than about hurting 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:16.360 other people. Right from the beginning, the message should have 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:20.920 been a public good message, not a personal message, because 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.400 the moment it's personal, it's up to you. You say, 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:27.560 let's let me decide what's my cost and benefit. But 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.880 it wasn't about that. It was really about the public good, 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:33.120 and it was about other people catching it. It was 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:37.480 about the hospital systems being overwhelmed, and and we didn't 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:41.199 emphasize those enough. So first of all, you know, one 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.959 of the big lessons in social science and behavior economics 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.720 is that the environment matters. And here I have to say, 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:52.880 I'm very proud that my university a duke, because we 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:58.480 did lots of things from the beginning to change the environment. So, 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:01.840 for example, we created a new social contract and we 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:06.439 said this is not a regular life. We are a community, 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:10.200 and we are responsible for everybody, and the students are 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:13.720 responsible for the faculty, and the faculty are responsible for 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:17.280 the students. And we've done very well, so the number 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:20.200 of COVID cases was very low. I think we've been 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:24.679 one of the leaders. But we invested. We I mean 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:29.640 the university invested a lot of effort saying we're a community, 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:32.679 we care about each other. So you made it about 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:36.160 love not punishment. We we made it about love. In fact, 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:41.199 we had students walking around and if they saw people 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:45.120 adhering to the rules, they said, thank you, here's a 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:49.720 vouchue for coffee. We we rewarded good behaviors, and some 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:52.280 of the professors told me that these students install them, 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:57.720 please be more careful. There was there was really fantastic caring, 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:03.439 very very proud of both the thought into all of this. 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.640 Right we were as a university. You know, we know 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:10.520 something about social science, and it's nice that that we 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:15.679 used what we know to create a community. I actually 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:21.040 think in some instances there's been an extraordinary return of community. 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.240 I mean myself when I got sick, you know, an 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:27.400 outpouring of neighbors who I didn't even know very well. 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:31.160 We're dropping those casserole dishes at my door from my kids. 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:33.480 You know, my parents always knew their neighbors, they were 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:35.680 their friends for years and years. But as time passed 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:38.160 and we all find our own friends in our phones, 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.040 we stopped talking to our neighbors. Suddenly our neighbors have 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.720 become our lifelines. How about how this has impacted family. 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.160 We are inherently a social animal. And if you think 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:52.360 about being so lonely for such a long time, what 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:54.560 are the long term applications of this? I don't know 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:57.440 what the answer is, but I think that if if 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:00.720 we had a chance, when you know, the closure have started, 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:05.240 I think we should have given families advice of what 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.920 you do. All of a sudden, we were thrown into 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:11.360 a very different environment, and what works and doesn't work 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:14.960 in this environment is very very different than what we 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:17.560 needed to do was to help people. I wish we 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:21.920 had the panel of experts on romantic relationship, a panel 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.720 of experts on education, a panel of experts on this, 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:28.920 and we would have given people instructions because because it 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:32.960 is a lot of time to to manage. We'll be 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:46.800 back after the break. I want to talk about this 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:50.720 idea of freedom because we've heard so much about it 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:53.600 through this pandemic, this idea of freedom. Back in the spring, 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:59.320 we saw those protesters in Michigan holding Liberate signs. Why 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:04.320 is this idea of freedom so powerful to so many, 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.160 especially in the face of these COVID restrictions. Yes, so 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.440 there's a there's a personality trade called reactants where we 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:13.600 just don't like somebody to restrict our freedom. And you know, frankly, 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.679 I don't like it either, right and freedom all else 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.960 being equal is great. I'm not I'm not against it, 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:23.920 but it is interesting what are the limits of freedom? 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:27.439 And it's kind of a bizarre to to realize how 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:32.840 domain specific it is. So for example, and nobody is 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:38.440 saying I want freedom to drive in red lights and 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:43.959 park on sidewalks. Why why is it that we're willing 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:49.000 to accept severe restrictions of our freedom when it comes 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:52.400 to driving. And the reason it's obvious, it's because we 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:57.120 see the terrible consequences on other people. Like we understand 0:13:57.200 --> 0:13:59.520 that if we have the right to drive in red light, 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:03.400 it means people would die. And we kind of think 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:06.000 that it's okay for people to make mistakes and kill themselves, 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:09.000 but killing other people is not okay. And the moment 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:12.360 we understand that people have what's called negative externalities to 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:16.680 our actions, then we say, I'm not willing to accept freedom. 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:21.240 Here you can't hurt other people. But in general, people 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.320 value freedom as long as it doesn't hurt other people. 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:28.760 And what's so bizarre about Corona is that it is 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.320 about other people. Then what do we do for the 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:35.080 next hurdle before the next pandemic? You mentioned it, the vaccine. 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:39.040 What kind of language, what kind of efforts are needed 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:43.120 to actually motivate people to get the vaccine when it's available, 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:45.760 knowing that there's a lot of fake news out there. 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:48.080 So the first thing I think we need to do 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.800 is we need to create a wait list for the vaccine. 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:55.640 You know, Basically we talked about social We talked about 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:58.400 the fact that we want people to see what other 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.960 people are doing. If we the national weightlist that you 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:03.880 could sign up for and you would see how many 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:07.120 millions of people want it, that would create a social 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:10.880 understanding of how desirable it is. The second thing is 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:14.280 that we need to schedule an appointment for everybody. You know, 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:17.440 if you kind of on defense and slightly negative and 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.160 you have a meeting for you know, April seventeen to 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:22.760 go and get vaccinated, and you have to say no, 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:25.040 I don't want it, I want to cancel, you know, 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:29.240 that's a very different action. And then you know, in 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:32.440 terms of the people who are the most extreme negative, 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.360 you know, this is not going to work by telling 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:39.880 them they're stupid, and it's not going to work by 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:44.880 giving them more information. I think that the vaccine deniers 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:49.320 this is an issue. This like single issue voters. People 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:52.320 who who are single issue voters, they basically say this 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:56.080 issue is so important, it's like the only thing that matters, 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.600 and that become part of their identity. And people who 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:03.320 are against vaccine, it's about lack of trust and it's 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:06.560 about fear. And I don't know what the answer is, 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:08.920 but I know that for sure it's not about giving 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:13.720 them more information, and for sure it's about giving them 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:18.680 and a ladder to climb down from where they don't 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:23.400 need to betray their core identity belief. So I don't 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:26.040 have the solution yet, but we need to recognize that 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:31.280 the obstacle is not lack of information. But when we 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:35.880 come together and like and and you know the reality 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.800 is that we're so happy the vaccination is coming, but 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:42.600 we could have made the damage so much longer. I'm 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.240 an optimist in nature, but I look at it and 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:47.840 I say, I want us to fix things for the 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:51.200 next pandemic. I want us to to to to learn 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:54.480 the lesson and say, okay, we have to trust somebody. 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.120 We have two so higher caring for each other. We 0:16:57.200 --> 0:16:59.360 have to understand publicly. I want us to have a 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:03.200 kit for the next pandemic it's going to come, that 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:07.840 will be more ready for it. How do you keep wealthy, connected, 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:12.679 privileged people from not cheating, from not jumping ahead of 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.440 the line to get this vaccine. When fairness breaks, then 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.399 people say, let's break it in more ways. And I 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:21.439 think what we need to do is we need to 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:25.679 have a very clear hierarchy of what goes first, second 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:29.640 and third, say okay, healthcare workers, people over sixty five, 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:32.480 we all have to kind of agree to that. And 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:34.560 it needs to be transparent so we don't think that 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:38.480 people are bypassing the queue. In fact, I think we 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:45.200 should make January one memorial day to COVID, you know, 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.040 because it COVID is over. But I think we have 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:52.280 to acknowledge how we have failed as as humanity in 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:54.720 this thing. You know, it's it's wonderful that's a vaccination, 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:58.560 but the reality is that washing hands, wearing masks, keeping 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:02.720 social distance, we had that solution for a while, right. 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:05.920 I think that first of all, um, we need to 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.600 get to a new understanding of what COVID is all about. 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:10.879 You know, there are people who believe it more and 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:12.680 less and so on, and I think if we made 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:16.840 a COVID Memorial Day or regret they, I think we 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.359 would come to religion that it's real, it's real, it's central, 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:24.760 it's big, it deserves its own day. So that's one reason, right, 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.280 we we galvanize and we agree to it. The second 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:31.520 reason is that there's lots of consequences of these things 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.720 that we haven't recognized yet, and we need to think 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:37.280 about the way to to think about all of those. 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:39.919 And then the last thing is I think we have 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:44.480 to basically say sorry if if I hope that the 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:49.040 next pandemic will deal with better. We need to basically 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:52.400 become more articulate about where we have failed. And each 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:55.119 of us has done some undesirable things during this time. Right, 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:59.160 nobody is is perfectly innocent. We all need to realize 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.040 that we didn't do as much as possible for our community. 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:03.960 I mean, I think if we gave it some time 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:07.679 and thought about it, we would come with a conclusion 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:11.240 that where we have gone wrong, and we can create 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:13.920 an action plan for what we would do better next time. 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:26.280 I do hope one day we have an official COVID 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.240 Memorial Day. It has been almost a year since we 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:32.840 first heard reports of this mysterious virus in Wuhan, China, 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:36.480 and in the last year, COVID has dominated our lives 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:40.000 and our minds for months and fatigue, I get it. 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:42.800 Fatigue is set in for a lot of us. On 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:45.119 Modern Rules, we like to get straight to the point 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:48.119 so you have some time to think. But after this episode, 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:51.760 I really want to challenge you to think about how 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:55.040 you're behaving and how it impacts other people. Dan reminded 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:57.160 me that we still have a lot to think about 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.600 the loss, the failure, the future, and how we as 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:05.040 individuals and communities could do things different next time. Think 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:08.840 about it. I'm Stephanie Rule and you're listening to Modern Rules, 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:12.800 a podcast from NBC Think, MSNBC and I Heart Radio. 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:18.160 This podcast is hosted by me Stephanie Rule. Mike Biett 0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:21.879 and Katrina Norvell are executive producers. Meredith Bennett Smith is 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:25.119 Senior editor for NBC Think and our editorial lead. The 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:29.040 podcast is engineered and edited by Josh Fisher. Additional production 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:32.680 support provided by Charles Herman, Rachel Rosenbaum and Lauren Wynn, 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:35.680 and special thanks to Katherine kim Are, Global head of 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:39.240 Digital News right here at NBC News and MSNBC. For 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:42.920 more thought provoking analysis, visit NBC news dot com slash 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:43.080 thing