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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm to

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Speaker 1: bling a chokerate boarding and we had a lot of

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Speaker 1: fun this year. I've had a lot of fun at

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Speaker 1: least covering scientific rivalries. We've talked about horse Wells in

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Speaker 1: the Gas War, and of course Tesla and Edison in

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Speaker 1: the War of the Currents. That was one that was

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Speaker 1: really popular because it was much anticipated and requested beforehand.

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Speaker 1: It stirred up a little rivalry on our Facebook page,

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Speaker 1: it did, but it's got a lot of strong support. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I was about to say that the rivalries out there,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, Tesla is definitely kind of a favorite these days,

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Speaker 1: I would say so. Those episodes and the Mary Annie

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Speaker 1: Princess of Paleontology episode that we did earlier this year,

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Speaker 1: got listeners clamoring for a podcast on another scientific war,

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Speaker 1: one about two nineteenth century paleontologists, Edward Drinker Cope and

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Speaker 1: off Charles Marsh. Now, Cope and Marsh duped it out

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Speaker 1: over America's fossil deposits during a time when the field

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Speaker 1: of paleontology was still pretty new. Their race to find

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Speaker 1: fossils named the species that they belonged to and published

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Speaker 1: their findings about. All of this came to be known

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Speaker 1: by many names, including the Great Dinosaur Feud, the Dinosaur Rush,

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Speaker 1: and the Bone Wars are titled today. Uh and they

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Speaker 1: really made an impact too. Prior to their work, there

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Speaker 1: were only nine known species of North American dinosaurs, and

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Speaker 1: these two men's efforts led to the classification of a

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Speaker 1: hundred and thirty six new species. But Cope and Marsh's

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Speaker 1: feud also resulted in a lot more than just the

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Speaker 1: advancement of their field. It was kind of an embarrassment too.

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Speaker 1: It was a pretty dark time in a lot of

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Speaker 1: ways that ended up damaging both of their reputations and

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Speaker 1: maybe even hindered scientific progress in some respect. Yes, so

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Speaker 1: much so that it's interesting their feud has been regarded

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Speaker 1: quote as a kind of scientific indiscretion, says James Pennic

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Speaker 1: in an article in American Heritage. So we're going to

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Speaker 1: kind of explore that a little bit, but in two parts.

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Speaker 1: Yes we are in two parts. But to understand why

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Speaker 1: these guys came to be at such odds, we first

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Speaker 1: need to discuss a little bit about their backgrounds and

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Speaker 1: how they came to be in their field in the

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Speaker 1: first place, because they both took very different paths to

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Speaker 1: end up basically in the same competition. So we'll start

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Speaker 1: with Marsh. He's the elder of the two. Auth Neil

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Speaker 1: Charles Marsh was born October one in Lockport, New York.

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Speaker 1: His father was very poor. He was a farmer, and

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Speaker 1: even though Marsh showed a lot of interest in science

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Speaker 1: from a young age, his father only intended him to

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Speaker 1: take over the family farms someday. But fortunately for Marsh,

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Speaker 1: he had a very influential uncle. His His mother, who

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Speaker 1: had died when he was only three years old, was

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Speaker 1: the sister of the banker philanthropist George Peabody, much beloved

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Speaker 1: sister luckily luckily so, of course, Peabody had one of

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Speaker 1: the largest personal fortunes in the world, according to Panics article,

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Speaker 1: and it was a good person to to have, especially

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Speaker 1: if if Marcia's father was kind of struggling with his

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Speaker 1: with his work. So around age one, Marsh inherited some

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Speaker 1: money from his uncle that had been meant for his

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Speaker 1: mother's dowry, and he used this money to attend prep

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Speaker 1: school at Phillips Academy, and of course, at twenty one.

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Speaker 1: He was much older than the other kids there. So

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Speaker 1: you think that Peabody could have advanced him the money

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Speaker 1: for the education further ahead of time. Yeah, you would

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Speaker 1: hope so. But that did That wasn't the case. That

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Speaker 1: didn't happen. So, according to an article by Tom Huntington

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Speaker 1: in American History, his peers at prep school gave him

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Speaker 1: nicknames like Daddy and Captain, which you would think would

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Speaker 1: just be mortifying, but he didn't seem to care, or

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Speaker 1: if he did, he didn't let it stop him. He

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Speaker 1: graduated as valedictorian and then convinced his uncle to pay

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Speaker 1: to send him to Yale College, where he earned an

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Speaker 1: undergraduate degree in eighteen sixty. He then went on to

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Speaker 1: earn a master's degree from Yale Sheffield School of Science

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Speaker 1: a couple of years later, and after that he spent

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Speaker 1: a little bit of time studying in Europe and convinced

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Speaker 1: uncle Peabody to donate some more money, this time to

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Speaker 1: Yale for a Museum of Natural Sciences. And it was

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Speaker 1: kind of a hard sell because Peabody preferred Harvard. He

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Speaker 1: would have preferred to have given his money to Harvard,

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Speaker 1: but marsh did get his way in the end, and

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Speaker 1: he was appointed to run the museum as curator and

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Speaker 1: became a professor of paleontology at Yale. So if your

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Speaker 1: uncle does pony off the money, it's a job. Ultimately, though,

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Speaker 1: he was the first professor of paleontology in North America

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Speaker 1: according to Huntington's article, so a big, big step in

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Speaker 1: his career. So moving on to Cope. Unlike Marsh Edward Drinker,

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Speaker 1: Cope came from a wealthy Quaker family, so definitely a

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Speaker 1: bit of a brighter start in life. He was born

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Speaker 1: in July forty in Philadelphia, so nine years after Marsh,

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Speaker 1: and he also showed a really early interest in science.

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Speaker 1: He actually recorded his impressions of the fossils of an

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Speaker 1: extinct marine reptile called Ichthyosaurus, which I think we talked

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Speaker 1: about a little bit in the Merrimanning episode. He recorded

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Speaker 1: his impressions of this when he was only six years old,

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Speaker 1: so he was like you deplena playing fossil hunter. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think it was probably a little more on top

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Speaker 1: of it than I was. But when he was eighteen

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Speaker 1: he also published a scientific paper on salamanders, and another

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Speaker 1: thing that set Cope apart from Marsh, though is that

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Speaker 1: he didn't get a lot in the way of a

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Speaker 1: formal education, which is kind of surprising considering he was

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Speaker 1: so into science at an early age. He studied for

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Speaker 1: about a year at the University of Pennsylvania, spent some

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Speaker 1: time studying the herpetology collections of the Smithsonian, and he

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Speaker 1: worked as a researcher at the Academy of Natural Sciences

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Speaker 1: in Philadelphia, but definitely didn't take that sort of traditional

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Speaker 1: academic path that Marsh took. He did take a little

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Speaker 1: tour through Europe eventually, though, to further his education and

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Speaker 1: to keep Cope from becoming involved in the Civil War,

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Speaker 1: his father sent him abroad to study natural history in

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Speaker 1: eighteen sixty three and he ended up for a time

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Speaker 1: at Berlin University in Germany, and coincidentally, Marsh was there

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Speaker 1: at the same time, and the two guys did become acquainted,

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Speaker 1: and even though it seems really unbelievable, later they were

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Speaker 1: actually friendly with each other and they continued their friendship

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Speaker 1: state bid and after they returned home, even though their

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Speaker 1: lives did take somewhat different path. Yeah, Marsh of course

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Speaker 1: came back and he had this nice cush position at

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Speaker 1: Yale to come into and Cope came back to marry

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Speaker 1: his cousin Annie Pearn, and he became a professor of

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Speaker 1: zoology and botany at Haverford College in Pennsylvania. That position, however,

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Speaker 1: was pretty short lived. Cope left it in eighteen sixty

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Speaker 1: seven to go study a big deposit of dinosaur fossils

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Speaker 1: found in New Jersey. So just a little background on

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Speaker 1: the study of dinosaurs up to this point. According to

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Speaker 1: Huntington's article, a British scientist named Richard Owen had coined

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Speaker 1: the term dinosaur in eighteen forty one, but he had

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Speaker 1: described them as these quote low slung lizard like creatures.

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Speaker 1: Joseph lighty study of the first US dinosaur find and

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Speaker 1: hadn't Field, New Jersey in eighteen fifty eight, totally changed

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Speaker 1: this perception. Lightie worked with the bones of a Hadrosaurus

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Speaker 1: and showed that it would have walked erect on two

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Speaker 1: legs instead of on all fours like a lizard like

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Speaker 1: most people thought, and that first Hadrosaurus, which Lightie helped reconstruct,

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Speaker 1: became the first complete dinosaur skeleton to be displayed for

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Speaker 1: the public. According to PBS dot Org, Well and Lighty

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Speaker 1: had a connection to one of these guys d didn't

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Speaker 1: he he did. He had been Cope's anatomy professor at

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Speaker 1: the University of Pennsylvania and was also his mentor at

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Speaker 1: the Academy of Natural Sciences, So probably someone that Cop

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Speaker 1: looked up to and learned from. If you're only going

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Speaker 1: to do one year at at penn he met this guy.

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Speaker 1: But ultimately Cope did go to New Jersey where this

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Speaker 1: fossil quarry was, and he participated in several excavations there.

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Speaker 1: So at this point, as we mentioned, Cope and Marsh

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Speaker 1: were still friendly with each other, enough so that in

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Speaker 1: eighteen sixty seven, Cope even named an amphibian fossil Tonius

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Speaker 1: marsh I after Marsh. I mean, that's a pretty nice

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Speaker 1: thing to do for your your fellow scientist, I would say. Um.

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Speaker 1: He also spent a week or so in eighteen sixty

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Speaker 1: eight showing Marsh around the fossil quarry in New Jersey

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Speaker 1: where he was working, pointing out his various collection sites,

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Speaker 1: really being open about his work with Marsh. Something important

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Speaker 1: to remember later on, Um that year to Marsh wasn't

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Speaker 1: just gonna take this gift of a dinosaur name and

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Speaker 1: let it go. He returned the naming compliment, and, according

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Speaker 1: to PBS dot org, gave a quote new and gigantic

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Speaker 1: serpent from the tertiary of New Jersey the name Mosasaurus copi. Honest, uh,

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Speaker 1: that just sure didn't count for a whole lot in

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Speaker 1: the long run. But still it's a gesture. So just

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Speaker 1: to give you a little background of why it might

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Speaker 1: not have been as sweet a gesture as it seemed.

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Speaker 1: Cope later found out that Marsh had gone behind his

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Speaker 1: back and made a deal with the New Jersey quarry

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Speaker 1: owner that ensured that all of the fossils that were

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Speaker 1: found there would go directly to Marsh first, so basically

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Speaker 1: cutting Cope out of the loop, kind him out of

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Speaker 1: the process. Hope is taking around this place, showing off

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Speaker 1: what he's working on, giving him the tour supposedly, I guess,

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Speaker 1: being totally open about it, not assuming that Marsh is

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Speaker 1: going to backstab him. But that's exactly what happened. So

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Speaker 1: Cope was kind of hoodwinked by this. In the same year,

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Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty eight, something else happened in their relationship.

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Speaker 1: In Cope and Marsha's relationship, Cope was in a big

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Speaker 1: hurry to publish his findings on a new species of plesiosaur,

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Speaker 1: the fossilized bones of which had been shipped to him

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Speaker 1: by an Army surgeon from Kansas. And this is how

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Speaker 1: they receive eve to their their fossils. Sometimes this reminded

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Speaker 1: me a little bit of the Merry Anning episode, where,

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Speaker 1: of course the earlier situation we were describing of Cope

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Speaker 1: going to the dig side and looking himself sounds more

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Speaker 1: like what you'd expect, but just having bone shipped to

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Speaker 1: you from from somebody else. Yeah, when we talk about

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about the bone collectors and so forth a

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Speaker 1: little more in part two of this, but the sort

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Speaker 1: of introduces that idea. But anyway, Cope he got these bones.

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Speaker 1: He called this previously unknown pleas asur Alasmosaurus. Unfortunately, though,

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Speaker 1: when Cope was reconstructing the Elasmo Sours skeleton, he made

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Speaker 1: a pretty major error. He reversed all of the vertebrae

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Speaker 1: and put its head on its tail instead of on

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Speaker 1: the end of its neck. It's pretty bad and guests

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Speaker 1: who noticed. Marsh paid a visit to the Academy of

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Speaker 1: Natural Sciences to check out Cope's work, and of course

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Speaker 1: he did not hesitate to point out this error, and

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Speaker 1: he's even said to have been the first person to

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Speaker 1: who pointed out to Cope. Cope called in Joseph Lady

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Speaker 1: to take another look and offer up a second opinion.

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Speaker 1: He confirmed the mistake, and actually, upon looking at the skeleton,

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Speaker 1: Lady removed the head and placed on reversed it with

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Speaker 1: what Cope had originally thought was the tail, So pretty

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Speaker 1: pretty bad, yeah, and light. He also discussed this air

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Speaker 1: at the next meeting of the Academy of Natural Sciences.

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Speaker 1: So you can imagine it's just like embarrassment on top

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Speaker 1: of embarrassment. First he's embarrassed, yes, he's embarrassed in front

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Speaker 1: of his colleague, and then he's embarrassed in front of

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Speaker 1: his mentor, and then at the Academy of Natural Sciences

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Speaker 1: in front of this entire meeting of scientists. And of

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Speaker 1: course also it's in publication. As we mentioned before, it's

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Speaker 1: already out there in the Journal of the American Philosophical Society.

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Speaker 1: They had already published his findings, including a drawing of

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Speaker 1: this incorrect restoration. So Cope frantically starts to try to

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Speaker 1: buy back every copy of the publication that he could

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Speaker 1: find but this incident, combined with Marcia's shady dealings regarding

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Speaker 1: the New Jersey quarry, really seemed to have kicked off

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Speaker 1: the feud between the two, or at least started the

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Speaker 1: rift and bad feelings between them. But if you really

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Speaker 1: look at which of these incidents had more to do

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Speaker 1: with the bad feelings between them, it really depends on

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Speaker 1: which one of them that you asked. I mean, Cope

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Speaker 1: would probably say it had more to do with what

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Speaker 1: happened in New Jersey, yes, and Marsh would say that

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Speaker 1: he was just embarrassed and mad that he had pointed

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Speaker 1: out his mistake. Yeah. Well, Marsh even later wrote of

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Speaker 1: the incident and said that it was Cope's quote, wounded

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Speaker 1: vanity that had received a shock from which it never recovered,

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Speaker 1: and he has since been my bitter enemy. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's Marsh saying, Oh, Cope just can't handle being wrong essentially. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He also later admitted that while he initially did return

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Speaker 1: his copy of the publication to Cope as Cope had requested,

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Speaker 1: trying to hoard all these incorrect copies um, he March

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Speaker 1: later thought out and bought two additional copies, which he

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Speaker 1: them as some kind of ammunition. Um, seems like something

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Speaker 1: that your buddy wouldn't do. Only your most bitter enemy

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Speaker 1: would do that, or at least you would hope. But

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Speaker 1: this is a great example of how Cope's big rush

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Speaker 1: to get things published sometimes resulted in him making errors.

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Speaker 1: But of course marsh although he was said to be

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Speaker 1: very meticulous, wasn't immune to this either. He he did

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Speaker 1: make his share of mistakes. Just one example, he once

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Speaker 1: put a camera source skull on the skeleton of an apatosaurus, which,

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Speaker 1: according to an article by Renee Clary, James wander c

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Speaker 1: and Amy Carpinelli in Science Scope, was quote one of

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Speaker 1: the longest lasting mistakes of paleontology. And we're going to

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Speaker 1: discuss at least one of his other major errors later

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Speaker 1: on too. But that's just to give you one example.

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Speaker 1: And so, of course, in some ways, you know, we've

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Speaker 1: we've been talking about this rush that both of the

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Speaker 1: men were constantly under. These errors were a direct result

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Speaker 1: of competition between them, because not only were they trying

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Speaker 1: to get their discoveries out there quickly, because the naming

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Speaker 1: rights were given to ever published a fine first, they

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Speaker 1: were trying specifically to beat each other to the punch.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's not going to make great meticulous work

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Speaker 1: in the end, but likely right. But the feud between

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Speaker 1: Cope and Marsh really began in earnest in the eighteen seventies,

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Speaker 1: when they both headed west to hunt for fossils. Marsha's

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Speaker 1: first expedition was in eighteen seventy and it was sponsored

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Speaker 1: by Yale, and he had this whole entourage with him,

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Speaker 1: including about a dozen Yale students and even an army

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Speaker 1: escort that they acquired once they had made it to

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Speaker 1: what's now the Midwest, and they explored Kansas, Wyoming, in Utah,

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Speaker 1: and according to Huntingson's article, at one point they even

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Speaker 1: had buffalo Bill Cody as their guide. But by the

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Speaker 1: time they got back to Yale after that first trip,

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Speaker 1: they had thirty six boxes of specimens, including bone fragments

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Speaker 1: from a pterodactyl wing when no pterodactyl had been discovered before,

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Speaker 1: and Marsh estimated that this giant flying reptile would have

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Speaker 1: had a wingspan of twenty feet. So Cope and Marsh

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Speaker 1: when they really started to butt heads was around eighteen

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Speaker 1: seventy two, when Cope started exploring Wyoming Territory looking for

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Speaker 1: fossils there. Huntington writes that Marsh was really angry about

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Speaker 1: this because he considered the area his turf. I guess

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Speaker 1: because he'd already hunted four fossils around the taste of

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Speaker 1: his own medicine there, I have to say, but this

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Speaker 1: ultimately kicked off a really nasty sort of letter writing

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Speaker 1: campaign between the two. It reminds me of the pamphlet

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Speaker 1: Wars we sometimes discussed some podcast, but there were tactics

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Speaker 1: were not just limited towards either. They employed everything from

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Speaker 1: espionage to theft in their battle to be known as

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Speaker 1: the best in the field, and I think to a

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Speaker 1: certain extent, to make sure the other guy was it

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Speaker 1: was number two you too, or or even lower. So

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be discussing examples of some of these tactics

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Speaker 1: in the next episode. Is as well as what happens

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Speaker 1: when Cope and Marsh finally take their fight to what

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Speaker 1: turned out to be the ultimate battleground for them, and

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Speaker 1: it was not the fossil ground, it was Washington, d C. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so lots of interesting things to cover in part two,

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Speaker 1: including I think we'll talk a little bit more just

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Speaker 1: about their personalities too, and their personal lives, because I

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Speaker 1: think it gives some interesting insight as to maybe some

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Speaker 1: more of the root of the animosity. It wasn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: all about dinosaur bones, not all about it, but a lot,

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Speaker 1: a lot, yes, that's for sure. All right, Well, before

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Speaker 1: we sign off for today, we do have a couple

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Speaker 1: of pieces of the listener mail. One is an email

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Speaker 1: from a listener Bill and I just wanted to read this.

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Speaker 1: It's just a couple of sentences, but I wanted to

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Speaker 1: read it because he brings up Indian tear Tory. Oh

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Speaker 1: your favorite place, my favorite place, he says. An old

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Speaker 1: friend used to talk about his dad's birth certificate, stating Oklahoma,

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Speaker 1: Indian Territory as his birthplace. He was born in a

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Speaker 1: small town just north of the Red River on April one,

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Speaker 1: nineteen o six, and in parentheses he put no kidding,

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Speaker 1: So that was pretty cool. I bet you were. I

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Speaker 1: bet you as you were born there, but you'd have

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Speaker 1: to be a lot older. And yeah, I don't think

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Speaker 1: I that wouldn't work out. I was kind of hoping

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Speaker 1: um Cope and Marsh would head out Indian Territory way

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Speaker 1: to do some fossil finding, but I guess not quite

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Speaker 1: there in the range. They're in the area. But I

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Speaker 1: have another message from a listener, this time a Facebook

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Speaker 1: message that talks about a place where Cope and Marsh

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Speaker 1: definitely did not do any exploring, at least not that

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Speaker 1: I know of. Anyway. Colby sent us a note on

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Speaker 1: Facebook and wanted to talk about the Gertrude Bell episode,

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Speaker 1: and he had kind of an interesting point to make

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Speaker 1: that I thought was worth sharing a critique of the podcast. Actually,

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Speaker 1: he said, I love your podcast as a huge history geek.

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Speaker 1: I think I've listened to almost everyone I know. Your

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Speaker 1: podcasts aren't meant to be the super definitive statements on subjects,

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Speaker 1: But the Gertrude Bell one bothered me a bit. The

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Speaker 1: end painted a really rosy picture on the formation of

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Speaker 1: Iraq to be overly pc It was really a Western

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Speaker 1: and paternalistic view on the whole thing. I can't believe

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Speaker 1: I said something like that. L O L is what

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Speaker 1: he said in parentheses. The British killed thousands putting down regional,

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Speaker 1: ethnic and tribal rebellions at this time in Mesopotamia. They

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Speaker 1: stray villages and farms from the air and use poison

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Speaker 1: gas I believe, the only Western power to do so

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Speaker 1: after World War One. So an interesting point to make.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I thought that we did sort of talk

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Speaker 1: about how A. T. Wilson tried to squash down the

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Speaker 1: Arab rebellions in part two of that podcast, but definitely

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Speaker 1: wasn't a big mention, and so it's worth bringing up again.

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Speaker 1: It's a good reminder. I guess this wasn't all just

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Speaker 1: happy happy The Arabs were glad to go along with

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Speaker 1: having the British rule them for this time. And so

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Speaker 1: thank you Colby for writing in. I mean, we definitely

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Speaker 1: can't cover every aspect of every episode as much in

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Speaker 1: depth as we would like to so, or the or

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Speaker 1: the implications of what always happens later in the century,

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Speaker 1: and this is a clear example of if you could,

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Speaker 1: you could keep going up until the modern day. So true. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's always it's always a good reminder from listeners to

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Speaker 1: hear what you wish we talk about next time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we appreciate that when people write in with critiques

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Speaker 1: and point out things, and especially when they do so

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Speaker 1: in such a nice way. Yeah. This great cool, So

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Speaker 1: thanks again Colby, Thanks everyone who writes into us. If

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Speaker 1: you'd like to send us a comment on a podcast,

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Speaker 1: or maybe even just an idea suggestion for a future podcast,

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Speaker 1: you can find us at History Podcast at Discovery dot com.

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Speaker 1: We're also on Facebook and we're on Twitter at miss

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Speaker 1: in History. And as you bide your time until this

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Speaker 1: part two of them words comes out, we do have

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Speaker 1: a lot of paleontology articles, don't we We do, and

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Speaker 1: you can find them by searching on our homepage at

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Speaker 1: www dot how staff works dot com for more on

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Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics, because it how stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. M