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Speaker 1: Alzo Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's got to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Hello everybody, and welcome to it could happen here. This

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Speaker 3: is Sharene and I am so excited to be joined

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Speaker 3: by author and journalist Sim Kern. Their latest novel, The

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Speaker 3: Free People's Village is available now, so go to your

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Speaker 3: local bookstore and order it and support a voice that

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Speaker 3: I believe we all need in our zeitgeist right now.

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Speaker 3: So welcome Sim. Thank you so much for being here,

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. For those of you who don't know,

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Speaker 3: Sim has been making videos recently about the genocide and

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Speaker 3: Gaza from a queer Jewish anti Zionist perspective, and this

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Speaker 3: is one that I think a lot of people need

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Speaker 3: to be exposed to and to listen to. I mentioned

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Speaker 3: this to you before the recording, but a Jewish friend

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Speaker 3: of mine told me how much she connected with your

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Speaker 3: voice and how much she's learned from you, and how

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Speaker 3: your videos have been helping her approach really awkward and

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Speaker 3: difficult conversations with her peers. So I appreciate you very much.

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Speaker 1: Happy to do whatever I can when.

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Speaker 3: You decided to start making like the first video that

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Speaker 3: got a lot of attention, like were you seeing something

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Speaker 3: that you wanted to like make sure you correct in

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Speaker 3: the zeitgeist, like what was your perspective as a Jewish person?

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Speaker 4: Well, this is the first video that I made, was

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Speaker 4: encouraging people to read books by Palestinian authors, just to

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Speaker 4: learn about the Palestinian perspective which is so often censored

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Speaker 4: and not really allowed in our media. And also is

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Speaker 4: you really have to go seek out in publishing. And

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Speaker 4: this isn't the first time I've done this since I

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Speaker 4: think twenty seventeen or something was the first time I

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Speaker 4: created Read for Palestine challenge on YouTube. And just creating

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Speaker 4: this Read for Palestine challenge was enough to get me

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Speaker 4: put on the Canary Mission website.

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Speaker 1: I'm like outed as a.

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Speaker 4: Anti semi by this very zionist website that of course

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Speaker 4: is a blocklist of mostly students who organize with like

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Speaker 4: Students for Justice in Palestine and really anyone who speaks

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Speaker 4: out publicly against Israeli apartheid. So simply like encouraging people

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Speaker 4: to read these books, I think is really powerful. And

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Speaker 4: I know for me, growing up Jewish in the United States,

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Speaker 4: I was just inundated with a lot of Zionist propaganda

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Speaker 4: from my more conservative family. My more liberal family would

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Speaker 4: take the line of like, it's just very complicated, both

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Speaker 4: sides hate each other, who can say who's right? And

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Speaker 4: it was only by reading Palestinian voices that I really

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Speaker 4: developed an anti Zionist perspective.

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Speaker 3: That's awesome that you did the Read for Palestine challenge,

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Speaker 3: but also like not surprising about the Canary Mission thing, unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: but I'm glad that that didn't stop you or discourage

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Speaker 3: you when you start to learn more about Palestine. How

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Speaker 3: did you approach conversations with your friends and family?

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Speaker 4: Again, Like I guess initially it's different talking to friends

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Speaker 4: and family than it is talking to the internet. Honestly,

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Speaker 4: it's much easier, I think sometimes to connect with the

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Speaker 4: Internet because it is not that like personal connection. I

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Speaker 4: think I've made more headway and had a much greater

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Speaker 4: impact online than I have with certain friends and family members.

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Speaker 4: But you know, I do think that everyone having those conversations,

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Speaker 4: putting your beliefs out there, whether it's one on one

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Speaker 4: in face to face conversations or whether it is doing

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Speaker 4: it online, where like certainly your friends and family are

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Speaker 4: going to see the things that you're posting and the

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Speaker 4: things that you care about, it has a great impact.

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Speaker 4: And like I've definitely noticed friends of mine over time

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Speaker 4: who maybe a few intense bombing campaigns ago, were very

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Speaker 4: checked out on this issue are now very.

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Speaker 1: Active and are and are speaking out themselves.

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Speaker 4: And so that's I guess that would be my message

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Speaker 4: to other like anti Zionist Jews is even if the

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Speaker 4: first time you're putting stuff out there about Palestine it

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Speaker 4: feels like no one's listening, and it feels like, you know,

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Speaker 4: you're not making a difference over time, you're planting the

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Speaker 4: seeds of like questioning the Western media's you know, pro

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Speaker 4: Israeli perspective over time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really really good point. But my friend

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Speaker 3: also mentioned she would never have been exposed to your

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Speaker 3: voice if I if I didn't share it, or people

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Speaker 3: were not sharing it. So I think people really underestimate

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Speaker 3: the value of social media sometimes or speaking up on

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Speaker 3: social media, they're just like, oh, people are already talking

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Speaker 3: about it or whatever. But everyone has a community they

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Speaker 3: can reach that no one else can reach. So I

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Speaker 3: think that's important to remember. You made some points in

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Speaker 3: some videos that you made that I would love for

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Speaker 3: you to not like regurgitate, but maybe just like cover

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Speaker 3: for people that haven't watched your videos or are just unaware.

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Speaker 3: In general, I think a really important point you made

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Speaker 3: was how suffering is not monopolized or exclusive or any

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Speaker 3: worse or better than other people suffering if regardless of

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Speaker 3: what identity they are. Can you get into that a

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Speaker 3: little bit?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So I made a video that was actually responding

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Speaker 4: to a comment by someone saying like, how dare you

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Speaker 4: compare the suffering of Palestinians to the suffering of Jews?

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Speaker 4: How dare you compare genocides? That that's disgusting and that

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Speaker 4: cheapens the Holocaust? And that was again I think responding

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Speaker 4: to a video or I was saying, like, read about

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Speaker 4: other genocides besides the Holocaust, because I think it again,

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Speaker 4: as a Jewish American, I grew up steeped in Holocaust literature.

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Speaker 1: I read every book I could about it.

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Speaker 4: You know, I think a lot of Jewish kids, by

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Speaker 4: the time more adolescents we have like this PhD level

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Speaker 4: knowledge of the Holocaust.

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Speaker 1: I think that our.

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Speaker 4: Peers who are non Jewish maybe don't have quite as

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Speaker 4: much exposure and understanding of the Holocaust. But that is

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Speaker 4: often the only genocide that is taught in US schools,

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Speaker 4: and so there's a narrative that the suffering of the

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Speaker 4: Jews and the persecution of Jews is uniquely specific, and

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Speaker 4: that it was all about the religion. It's something about

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Speaker 4: Judaism itself is why.

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Speaker 1: We've been persecuted.

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Speaker 5: Well.

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Speaker 4: As an author, I currently I'm writing a book on

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Speaker 4: Jews in the seventeenth century, and I've just done a

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Speaker 4: ton of research on medieval and early modern Jewish history.

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Speaker 4: And of course there was religious hate, but it was

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Speaker 4: motivated by and I contended in this video that all

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Speaker 4: genocides are motivated by land and wealth and power, and

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Speaker 4: the hate is manufactured by people in power to justify

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Speaker 4: taking people's land and wealth to solidify their own power

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Speaker 4: as rulers and the Christian Church use this against.

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Speaker 1: Jews in the medieval and early.

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Speaker 4: Modern period and in our times it's, uh, there there's

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Speaker 4: no one religion that has a monopoly. I'm committing genocide,

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Speaker 4: you know, there's no one state. And because really it's

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Speaker 4: states that are that are committing genocide that you know,

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Speaker 4: it's not directed to one people. So I've encouraged people

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Speaker 4: to read books about here in the United States, obviously

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Speaker 4: the genocide of the Native peoples, the Congolese genocide. You know,

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Speaker 4: I just recommended a couple of different titles on the

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Speaker 4: Rwandan genocide for a more recent example. And uh it

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Speaker 4: is I reject the framework that you can't make comparisons

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Speaker 4: between genocides. I think that keeps us ignorant. I think

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Speaker 4: that keeps us from being in solidarity with one another

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Speaker 4: and understanding the mechanisms of power and control and wealth

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Speaker 4: accumulation that underlie all these genocides. And I do believe

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Speaker 4: what is happening in Palestine right now is a genocide

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Speaker 4: being committed by the Israeli state.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and also really good point about justifying it by

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Speaker 3: creating all of people in Palestine as barbarians or terrorists

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Speaker 3: or this rhetoric that becomes really dangerous and harmful and

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Speaker 3: as we've seen, like people can die, A sixty year

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Speaker 3: old can die from this rhetoric.

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Speaker 4: Right, and Yahoo just said this is a struggle between

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Speaker 4: children of light and children of darkness like that genocidal rhetoric.

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Speaker 3: I cannot believe that tweet. And I mean he deleted it,

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Speaker 3: but I mean the internet is forever. I just can't

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Speaker 3: believe that was that is so normal for him to

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Speaker 3: tweet just confidently at one point, just to say that

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Speaker 3: out loud. I think that's absurd. And also just like

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Speaker 3: to see how Yov Galant has been saying like human

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Speaker 3: animals or referring to Palestinians in such a dehumanizing way.

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Speaker 3: You mentioned something really important that I think I appreciated

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Speaker 3: about how maintaining the dehumanization of the Palestinians is vital

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Speaker 3: to maintain the white supremacist, imperialistic thing that is Israel.

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Speaker 3: Can you get into that a little bit?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, I think that was me trying. That came

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Speaker 4: out of me trying to understand why there was such

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Speaker 4: backlash when I first when I first years ago started

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Speaker 4: recommending people read Palestinian books. Is because when you read

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Speaker 4: a book by a Palestinian author, it is going to

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Speaker 4: humanize the Palestinian people for you, and that is incredibly threatening.

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Speaker 4: And Palestinian authors face a ton of discrimination within publishing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, look at what was it.

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Speaker 4: Earlier this week the Frankfurt Book Festival polled or canceled

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Speaker 4: a ceremony for a Palestinian author, Adania Shibley, and then

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Speaker 4: has made more time for Israeli voices and Israeli specific

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Speaker 4: panels that book festival. And simply because she is a Palestinian.

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Speaker 4: She writes books dealing with real, factual Palestinian history, and

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Speaker 4: her books are critical of Israel. But the silencing of

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Speaker 4: Palestinian voices is a global project. It is across all

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Speaker 4: media industries. You see it in you know, traditional book

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Speaker 4: publishing as well as journalism. Another an author friend of mine,

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Speaker 4: Hanin Ricott, has had the hardest time. She's been on

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Speaker 4: sub with her book and she's been told by multiple

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Speaker 4: editors to change the main character from a Palestinian character

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Speaker 4: to just a generic Arabic character because being Palestinian is

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Speaker 4: seen as inherently too controversial to publish.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I read that. That's just I mean, again not

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Speaker 3: completely surprised, but just so shameful that that is something

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Speaker 3: that is still happening in these modern times. I think

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Speaker 3: another thing to remember is a lot of people get

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Speaker 3: confused between the differences between being non white and white

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Speaker 3: in the scope of like this world. I guess it

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Speaker 3: just seems so obvious that colorism and racism both exist

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Speaker 3: in today's world. And I really liked what you mentioned

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Speaker 3: about the difference between colorism and racism. Can you talk

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Speaker 3: about that for a little bit.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So I was explaining that in the Western media,

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Speaker 4: Israelis are treated as white and Palestinians are treated as

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Speaker 4: non white, and it really is regardless of the color

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Speaker 4: of your skin. So a lot of people giving me

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Speaker 4: pushback on that common say, oh, but there's black and

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Speaker 4: brown and white Israelis. Yes, and in the racist apartheid

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Speaker 4: state that is Israel, people of different skin tones are

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Speaker 4: treated very differently. Within Israel, there was four sterilization of

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Speaker 4: African Jews immigrating to Israel. Well, when it comes to

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Speaker 4: the Western media, our view of the conflict is not

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Speaker 4: as nuanced as recognizing those differences. And so I was

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Speaker 4: explaining that colorism is, you know, discrimination based on the

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Speaker 4: color of your skin. Racism is a racial construct us

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Speaker 4: about social economic and legal discrimination. And while colorism is

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Speaker 4: often used to determine racism, that's not always one hundred

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Speaker 4: percent the case. And in the case of Israel, when

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Speaker 4: you're talking about the Western media looking at Israel, they

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Speaker 4: report on Israelis as people, as people who are to

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Speaker 4: be mourned, as people are whose deaths are important, as

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Speaker 4: people whose lives are valuable, And they report on people

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Speaker 4: in Gaza Palestinians as you know, human shields is the

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Speaker 4: most sympathetic way we hear them talked about. Their deaths

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Speaker 4: are not deemed important, They are not humanized within the media.

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Speaker 4: If they're killed, they're either combatants or they were a

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Speaker 4: human shield. They were someone being used by combatants, and

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Speaker 4: their deaths are you know, maybe the lip services paid

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Speaker 4: to those debts being regrettable, but they're seen as necessary

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Speaker 4: and not not unconscionable in the way that deaths in

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Speaker 4: Israel are reported on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you bring a really good point about

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Speaker 3: the media and how important semantics are. I think something

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Speaker 3: that we've been seeing time and time again is how

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Speaker 3: deep the dehumanization goes. Like Israelis have been killed versus

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Speaker 3: Palestinians have died. The Gaza strip is being referred to.

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Speaker 4: I've seen it as an enclave, Oh my god, you know,

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Speaker 4: an enclave where terrorists lurk. So yeah, the words used

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Speaker 4: to describe the city of Gaza, the words used to

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Speaker 4: describe people as combatants, the words like, you know, Palestinians

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Speaker 4: die in a clash, when that clash was racist Jewish

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Speaker 4: settlers with machine guns coming after them, you know.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, passive always.

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Speaker 6: Does a lot of work, it does.

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Speaker 7: It does.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we've seen it just recently with the hospital bombing.

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Speaker 3: How the New York Times changed their headline like three

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Speaker 3: times from strike and then to blast I believe was

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Speaker 3: what they landed on blast, which I just find honestly

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Speaker 3: comical when I really think about it too hard.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Elizabeth Warren came out and condemned blasts.

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Speaker 5: Like that is just so.

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Speaker 3: Just the passive voice is so dangerous because it really

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Speaker 3: it really off use case the truth, which is that

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Speaker 3: Palestine people are dying of genocide. Even calling it a

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Speaker 3: war or a conflict does not do what's happening justice

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Speaker 3: because it still implies there are two equal sides that

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Speaker 3: are fighting against each other, versus an occupier and oppressor

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Speaker 3: versus the occupied the oppressed. So I think semantics are

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Speaker 3: so important for us to keep in mind even when

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Speaker 3: we're talking about it with our peers, to make sure

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Speaker 3: that we talk about it in the correct way, because

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Speaker 3: I like, unconsciously becomes ingrained in us, even if we

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Speaker 3: don't realize it when we keep talking about certain things

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Speaker 3: the way the media wants us to talk about them

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Speaker 3: as a conflict or as a clash or whatever it is.

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Speaker 4: And something else that I've really tuned into is really

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Speaker 4: being careful not to pit this as a struggle between

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Speaker 4: Muslims and Jews. Any framing like that is both Islamophobic

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Speaker 4: and anti Semitic and incredibly inaccurate. This is about an

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Speaker 4: ethno state, a nation state, and apartheid state, which is

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Speaker 4: Israel targeting is captive population. And and there are Palestinians

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Speaker 4: who are of all different faiths who are discriminated against

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Speaker 4: because they are Palestinians within occupied Palestine. So like, for example,

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Speaker 4: it just came to my attention that there are some

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Speaker 4: in the I'm a book talker. My book talk channel,

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Speaker 4: it's in books Instagram is mostly what I do is

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Speaker 4: just you know, share about books for folks to read

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Speaker 4: and share about the books I'm working on, and some

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Speaker 4: of my fellow book talkers have been recommending people read

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Speaker 4: books by both Palestinian and Jewish authors so they can

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Speaker 4: show both sides. A Paladinian author, Hanna Mushback, just wrote

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Speaker 4: a great letter to sort of call in our community

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Speaker 4: and explain this is this is very antisemitic to conflate

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Speaker 4: Judaism with Israel, the policies of Israel. You know, yesterday

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Speaker 4: we saw five hundred Jewish activists get arrested in the

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Speaker 4: Capitol building here in d C. In protests and demanding

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Speaker 4: an immediate ceasefire in Gaza. So there are many many

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Speaker 4: anti Zionist Jews. Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing,

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Speaker 4: but conflating them gives Israel more power and gives it

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Speaker 4: a stronger moral foothold to say, oh, we're representing all Jews,

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Speaker 4: not just this this state. So that's something also to

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Speaker 4: be really careful about, is to not pit this as

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Speaker 4: a Muslim versus Jewish fight, because it's not. It's about Israel,

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Speaker 4: the state versus Palestinian people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's vital to remember. Let's take our first break

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Speaker 3: right here, and we will beat right back, and we

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Speaker 3: are back, you were just talking about how this is

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Speaker 3: just one hundred percent not a religious issue, and I

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Speaker 3: think talking about semantics again, I framing it as a

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Speaker 3: religious issue is another way for people to stop talking

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Speaker 3: about it, to be too afraid to get into this complicated,

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Speaker 3: ancient battle of all times, archaic thing that we can't

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Speaker 3: even get into because we can't understand it. I think

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Speaker 3: the Zionist narrative wants us to believe it's about religion

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Speaker 3: so people can ignore what's actually going on and be

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Speaker 3: too scared to speak out. It's like time and time

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Speaker 3: again something that I want to remind people that it's

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Speaker 3: not Muslim versus Jewish, which is what it gets framed

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Speaker 3: by most of the time. But speaking of Zionism and

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Speaker 3: how it's not equated to the Jewish religion at all.

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Speaker 3: If anything, Zionism is anti Semitic in and of itself.

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Speaker 4: I believe that wholeheartedly. I believe Zionism makes all Jews

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Speaker 4: so much more unsafe.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's also rooted in a lot of anti Semitism.

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Speaker 3: Even the way it was even the way the state

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Speaker 3: of Israel was created, was Europeans being like, hey, Jews,

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Speaker 3: can you go here? It wasn't this gift to the

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Speaker 3: Jewish people. It was also about to be in Africa,

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Speaker 3: which I find fascinating. And also I think people always

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Speaker 3: forget the majority of Zionists in the United States are

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Speaker 3: Evangelical Christians. That is one percent accurate. That's why they

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Speaker 3: support Zionism, and it's because they want all the Jews

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Speaker 3: to go to Israel for the rapture to happen. It

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Speaker 3: is the most like comic book idea I've ever heard,

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Speaker 3: and everyone just goes along with it. Yeah, that brings

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Speaker 3: me to another thing he brought up in your videos

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Speaker 3: about a homeland. I think what you discussed is really

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Speaker 3: important because because of this narrative that a lot of

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Speaker 3: Zionists teach to Jewish people about how they're constantly being persecuted,

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Speaker 3: I think people are led to believe that Israel is

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Speaker 3: their safe haven, Like if all of us fails, I

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Speaker 3: have Israel to go back to that as my home,

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Speaker 3: even like American Jews that have no connection to Israel. Really, why,

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Speaker 3: in your opinion, do the Jewish people not necessarily need

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Speaker 3: a homeland?

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 1: Well, I made that video speaking to like other leftists.

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Speaker 4: I was addressing other leftists, so I think if you

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Speaker 4: agree with me on the premise that everyone should have

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Speaker 4: a safe place to live and everyone should have equal rights,

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Speaker 4: which I think are two pretty pretty basic tenets of

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Speaker 4: being a leftist, then you just can't have anybody having

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Speaker 4: a theocratic ethno state, which is what Israel is de

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Speaker 4: fact I mean, they say they're not, but that is

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Speaker 4: how they act and how that is how that country

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Speaker 4: is run. And so, you know, a lot of people

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Speaker 4: misinterpreted that videos is you know, which I kind of

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Speaker 4: try to argue with me saying, but there's other theocratic

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Speaker 4: ethno states. But I'm saying, yeah, if you're a leftist,

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Speaker 4: you should think that's bad everywhere, because a theocratic ethno

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Speaker 4: state is an inherently fascist construct. It's inherently saying one

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Speaker 4: religion and or one ethnicity, in the case of the

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Speaker 4: way Israel interprets Judaism, these people are more valuable and

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Speaker 4: are more citizens here and have more rights here than

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Speaker 4: everybody else, and that is just incompatible with leftist values,

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Speaker 4: I think. And so I the point of that video

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Speaker 4: is nobody should have a theocratic ethno state. And this

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Speaker 4: is a line that I've heard even some leftist Jews

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Speaker 4: saying well, oh, we you know this is a complicated

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Speaker 4: issue because Jews need a homeland. Well, I'm sorry, our

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Speaker 4: world is just two heterogenous too diverse. You know, migrations

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Speaker 4: have been going on for tens of thousands of years

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Speaker 4: all over the place. There's no one plot of land

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Speaker 4: on Earth anymore that you can carve out and say, Okay,

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Speaker 4: just this one type of people are going to get

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Speaker 4: to live here and be citizens here and have rights here. Now,

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Speaker 4: I'm an anarchist personally, so I when I say no

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Speaker 4: theocratic ethno states, I'm also like in a bigger picture

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Speaker 4: way saying like no states would be the ideal for me.

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Speaker 4: But certainly theocratic ethno states are even worse within that

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Speaker 4: framework compared to like liberal democracies or something. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: that was a video that was like intended to be

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Speaker 4: an in group conversation, and then it got a million

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Speaker 4: views and got because my following has like really exploded

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Speaker 4: over the last week. So I wasn't expecting it to

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Speaker 4: go so far. And so for people who idealize ethno states,

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Speaker 4: like Japan or Sweden, they were really having a hard

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Speaker 4: time with me, with me saying that and thinking it

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Speaker 4: was really anti Semitic for me to say, oh, I

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Speaker 4: don't think Jews should have theocratic ethno state, but no,

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Speaker 4: I think nobody should have a theocratic ethno state.

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Speaker 3: That's a really good point to make. It's I mean,

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Speaker 3: it goes back to the idea of Jewish suffering being

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Speaker 3: more valuable in some way than other suffering. I think

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Speaker 3: it continues this hierarchy of sorts and everything you described

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Speaker 3: about people not being treated the same and not having

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Speaker 3: enough rights, that's all apartheid. I think people forget like

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Speaker 3: Israel is committing the definition of apartheid and has been

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Speaker 3: against the Palestinian people. And I find it weird that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, Amy Schumer posted this crazy video proving in

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Speaker 3: her words, that it's not an apartheid state actually and

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Speaker 3: how people have all the rights in the world when

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Speaker 3: in reality it's shameful.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like the UN, Amnesty, International, Human Rights Watch

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Speaker 4: are all saying this is an apartheid state. But okay,

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Speaker 4: Amy Schumer, Yeah, it's not actually that complicated.

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Speaker 3: It's really not. I've been really appreciating Amanda Seals. She

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Speaker 3: did like a reaction video to what Amy Schumer posted

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Speaker 3: and laid out all the racist reasons why Actually apartheid

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Speaker 3: is what you would call that. I think something that

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Speaker 3: has bothered me within the both sides thing is this

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Speaker 3: is not a term that I hear often anymore. But

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Speaker 3: like the progressive except Palestine, I think that idea has

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Speaker 3: been really damaging because it makes it seem like you

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Speaker 3: can still be so liberal and progressive and still not

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Speaker 3: really recognize that Palestinians are being genocided for almost a century.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and this is just so frustrating because again, what

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Speaker 4: you're seeing in Palestine, it's so stark, the violence is

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Speaker 4: so obvious, and it's so egregious. And there's all these

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Speaker 4: social justice you know, organizations and accounts that I followed.

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Speaker 4: There's like queer Jewish liberation accounts who said nothing about Palestine.

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Speaker 4: There's also non jew it just queer you know, all

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Speaker 4: sorts of queer liberation queer activists out there, which is

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Speaker 4: like a whole other network that I'm tapped in into,

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Speaker 4: and many of them are staying silent on this genocide.

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Speaker 4: And it's like we are all fighting the same evils,

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Speaker 4: the same type of oppression. And if you want people

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Speaker 4: to stand with you when your rights are being taken away,

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Speaker 4: you got to stand with everybody else.

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Speaker 6: That's the only way.

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Speaker 4: Intersectionality is the only way that we can overcome these

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Speaker 4: enormous forces of oppression in the world. So, yeah, it's

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Speaker 4: it's been very frustrating to see just how many, you know,

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Speaker 4: anti racist organizations, queer liberation organizations are just staying completely

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Speaker 4: silent on Palestine.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I have been really frustrated about that as well, because

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Speaker 3: it encourages this sort of selective outrage that is reserved

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Speaker 3: for certain kind of people that are deemed as human

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Speaker 3: versus the people that are not. I really believe one

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Speaker 3: of the most powerful voices in the fight for Palastine

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Speaker 3: liberation are Jewish anti zionists because they can speak to

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Speaker 3: what people deem is the source of that problem from

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Speaker 3: a different place. But I hope you realize how important

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Speaker 3: your voice is just in general, especially now. And Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I just really thank you for what you've been doing,

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Speaker 3: because it's kind of scary too. I'm sure to suddenly

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Speaker 3: have a big platform and have all these people analyzing

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Speaker 3: everything you're saying and trying to find little holes in

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Speaker 3: your arguments. But I appreciate that you're not backing down.

437
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I went from six thousand to one hundred eighty

438
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 4: thousand followers on Instagram in like a week.

439
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 3: I didn't realize that you started a six thousand. I

440
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 3: was wondering about that. That is a crazy jump.

441
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it happened really really fast.

442
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 4: And on TikTok too, I had I had fifty thousand

443
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 4: on TikTok just from my book talk author talk account,

444
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 4: which I've been you know, growing over the course of

445
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 4: two years, and then it went Now it's like at one.

446
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: Hundred and fifty thousand, so like tripled on TikTok.

447
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's definitely made me more careful about what

448
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 4: I say. Like again, I had that one video that

449
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 4: was sort of like an in group comment to leftist

450
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 4: because I'm used to being on like the leftist side

451
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 4: of TikTok, and then realized, like, oh crap, like everything

452
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 4: I say is going to go out to like absolutely

453
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 4: every single kind of audience, so I need to like

454
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 4: really think about the context of what I say and

455
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 4: that it.

456
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a it's a lot, it's a lot.

457
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm I mean it sounds really overwhelming and even

458
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 3: navigating it well and I don't know, I really appreciate

459
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 3: you before where we wrap this up. I would love

460
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 3: for you to talk about your work a little bit,

461
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,719
Speaker 3: maybe your book where people can find it, where they

462
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 3: can support you in your work. The platform is all yours.

463
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 8: Yeah.

464
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 4: So I actually had a book come out about a

465
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,959
Speaker 4: month ago called The Free People's Village, and it is

466
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 4: relevant to this topic.

467
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: It's a very leftist book.

468
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 4: It's about a punk band organizing to save their warehouse

469
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 4: from demolition to make room for a new electromatagnetic hyperway

470
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 4: in an alternate timeline where al Gore won the two

471
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 4: thousand election and declared a war on climate change instead

472
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 4: of a war on terror. But it's a book that's

473
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 4: really critical of neoliberal politics. So this solar punk utopia

474
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 4: that's been created this world has really only impacted wealthy

475
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 4: white neighborhoods while leaving everybody else behind. So it's a

476
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 4: book about centering racial justice within climate organizing. And the

477
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 4: final scene of the book actually takes place at a

478
00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 4: Free Palestine protest, and so that's definitely a presence throughout

479
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 4: the book. And based on experiences I've had organizing with

480
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 4: the incredible Students for Justice in Palestine and Palestini youth

481
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 4: movement organizers that we have here in Houston.

482
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: So for people who are.

483
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 4: Listeners of this podcast, I do think they would enjoy

484
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 4: the Free People's Village and you can get it. The

485
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 4: best place to get it is always your local indie bookstore.

486
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 4: Of course, you can also support your local indie bookstore

487
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 4: by shopping at bookshop dot org, which allows you all

488
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 4: the convenience of ordering online, but you get to pick

489
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 4: your favorite indie bookstore to benefit. And then of course

490
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 4: you can get it also from all of the big

491
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 4: corporate retailers. And it's available in hardcover and ebook and audiobook.

492
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 4: And you can find me online at sim Kern on

493
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 4: TikTok and if you search simcr it's at sim Bookstagram's

494
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 4: badly on Instagram, but if you just search sim Kernel,

495
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 4: I'll pop up on Instagram.

496
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 3: And that is s I N k r N.

497
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 6: For people that don't know, Yes.

498
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 3: Just to leave us with something that we can take

499
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 3: away from this, do you have any advice for people

500
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 3: that are trying to open up these discussions with their

501
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 3: peers and how should they approach them? And I don't know.

502
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 3: I think these conversations are essential to humanizing Palestinians. Again,

503
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 3: so do you have any advice before we sign off.

504
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 4: You know, same advice which was the first piece I gave,

505
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 4: which was just to read a lot and learn a

506
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 4: lot and seek out those Palestinian voices. Also Jewish Voice

507
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 4: for Peace if you go to their JVP dot org website,

508
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 4: they have a ton of like great tools and kits

509
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 4: for learning how to talk about Palestine.

510
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 5: And so I.

511
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 4: Would say, you know, always be learning and reading if

512
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 4: you feel like you don't have the language yet to

513
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 4: have these conversations. Like you said, it's really powerful to

514
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 4: repost things by you know, commentators that you respect, journalists

515
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 4: on the ground in Gaza right now who are doing amazing.

516
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 6: Courageous work.

517
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 4: Just letting people know what is happening and putting something

518
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 4: out that disrupts an imperialist narrative can be really really powerful.

519
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 3: Thank you for saying all of that, because it's really needed.

520
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 3: And I will put in the description all the info

521
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 3: to where you can follow sim in their work and

522
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 3: maybe I can put some recommendations for Palestinian books as well.

523
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 3: And yeah, that's the episode. Thank you so much for being.

524
00:30:38,080 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 4: Here, Thanks for having me Free Palestine.

525
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 7: Greetings podcasts. Excuse the asset, it's me James A. Man

526
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 7: who has commenced his one man war against cutter airlines,

527
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 7: who detained me against my will for most of the

528
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 7: last two days in a very small part of a

529
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 7: very big plane.

530
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 2: See there's a there's a you know. Airlines from Middle

531
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 2: Eastern countries are are usually like the best airlines are

532
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 2: like Royal Jordanian and Air Immirates. If it's if it's

533
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 2: owned by a king, it's usually a safe bet. But

534
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: but cutter airways.

535
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 7: That's what they say about.

536
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: England breaks that mold, proudly breaks that mold. Yeah, yeah,

537
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 2: fuck me.

538
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 7: One of the one of the less pleasant experiences available

539
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 7: to a human being that doesn't end in death is

540
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 7: a thirty six hour trip from Keston to southern California,

541
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 7: which see I've just enjoyed.

542
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 2: I always enjoyed those trips back from Air Emirates because

543
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: when you're on the Air Emirates flight, if you ask

544
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 2: the steward or whatever to if you tell him, hey,

545
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 2: I would like eight shots of vodka and four glasses

546
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 2: of orange juice, He'll just give it to you, like,

547
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: not even a question, not even a question. And so

548
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: have I vomited on a couple of eir Emirates flights. Yes,

549
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: is it always a good time? Probably you don't remember. No, No, yeah,

550
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: I see.

551
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 7: I was at the point of frustration where like and

552
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 7: I'm as an english Man, if if I've become frustrated

553
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 7: and drunk, then my instinct is to fight everyone or

554
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 7: throw bottles, and I thought that that would probably result

555
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 7: in further detention, so decided against decided against becoming bladdered.

556
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 7: Or I could have started singing. I guess that's the

557
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 7: other option available to me. That sure fits my culture. Yeah,

558
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 7: So we're not here to talk about things that I

559
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 7: like to do in my free time, as much as

560
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 7: I would love that, but we are here to talk

561
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 7: about things that I have been seeing in my worktime.

562
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 7: When I was traveling to Kurdistan a couple of weeks. Kurdistan,

563
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 7: for people who are not familiar, is a big area,

564
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 7: the area where Kurdish people live, and it spans several countries.

565
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 7: The areas I went, we're in a rock and in

566
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 7: Syria or in that it's not really in I guess

567
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 7: Syrian regime territory. But if you look on the.

568
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 2: Map, northeast Syria known as Rojava, the other two parts

569
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 2: that are generally considered part of Kurdistan. Are a chunk,

570
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 2: big chunk of southern Iran and also a big chunk

571
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 2: of southern Turkey.

572
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, so Java just means west. I think Roja lat

573
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 7: is east eastern Kurdistan. So yeah, I've spent the last

574
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 7: several last week and change in that area. And while

575
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 7: I was there, the Turkish state began a massive drone

576
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 7: bombing campaign, which is what we are gathered here today

577
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 7: to discuss. So for people who are not familiar, it's

578
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 7: for years almost to This drone bombing campaign started almost

579
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,239
Speaker 7: four years to the day since Turkey's invasion of what

580
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 7: they call the M four Strip. So that's the area

581
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 7: around Surakania and Tel Abiyad. We've talked about that before

582
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 7: on the Podka, so if you want to know more

583
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 7: about that, you can go back and listen to it.

584
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 7: It's the area along the border, one of the areas

585
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,720
Speaker 7: on the border between Turkey and Syria. And as people

586
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 7: will know, Syria is a country that has had a

587
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 7: long and terrible civil war, which they've heard about in

588
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 7: lots of episodes, right, and we're not talking about that

589
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 7: today so much as we're talking about the Turkish state's

590
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 7: use of drones to bomb what people generally in this

591
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 7: country will know as for a Java, right, So just

592
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 7: to give them statistics off the top, this is the

593
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,479
Speaker 7: fourth year in a row of aggression at this time

594
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 7: of year, right, So there have been two land attacks

595
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,919
Speaker 7: I think Operation Olive Branch and Operation with someone called

596
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,399
Speaker 7: peace Spring, and then two years the last two years

597
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 7: there have been drone strikes at this time of year.

598
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 7: This time of year, it seems very hard not to

599
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 7: conclude that these are attempts to destroy civilian infrastructure and

600
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,240
Speaker 7: make it very hard for people in the cold months

601
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 7: of the year. So right now around two million people

602
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 7: in north East Syria are going to be without power

603
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 7: and without water. And I experienced some of that when

604
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 7: I was there, and the places I stayed will run

605
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 7: off generators, so you'd have like intermittent power. You'd have

606
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 7: power from it, and then they'd put some petru in

607
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 7: the generator and the power will go down, or the

608
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 7: generator would have a little tantrum and the power would

609
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 7: go down. But generally I had a lot better access

610
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 7: to power that some people had a lot better access

611
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 7: to water. So as I was traveling around, I noticed

612
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 7: some people didn't have access to like running water, right,

613
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 7: they can't turn on the tap and get water. Obviously

614
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 7: that's a massive problem. It's something I think. Look, as

615
00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 7: people are listening to this, Israel is also bombing the

616
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 7: shit out of Gaza, the whole of the Gaza Strip,

617
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 7: and the US recently intervened to ensure that people there

618
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 7: had access to water, and they have done very little

619
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 7: in the case of protecting people in North and East Syria.

620
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:16,919
Speaker 2: Right.

621
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 7: So across this drone campaign, forty eight people have died,

622
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 7: and in the worst I guess the highest casualty of

623
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 7: producing strike was one that happened while I was there,

624
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 7: twenty nine. Like internal security forces, sometimes you'll see it

625
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 7: translated as police, but I don't think that's quite accurate,

626
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 7: like that, they don't do cop shit, like they're not

627
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 7: there to you know, like arrescue for parking in the

628
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 7: wrong place, and they do the things that cops do.

629
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,800
Speaker 7: They're there largely is like internal security due to the

630
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 7: various non state arm groups that are in the area

631
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 7: and state armed groups I guess that are operating in

632
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 7: the area that would make things dangerous for people living there.

633
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 7: So these particular essays were anti narcotic essay. And again

634
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:03,959
Speaker 7: why I'm grounding this and what they do is because

635
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 7: they're not the people who like send you to jail

636
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 7: for the rest of your life for like having an

637
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 7: ounce of weed. They're the people whose job is to

638
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 7: prevent the trading cap to gone. Will people know what

639
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 7: people know what Captagon is?

640
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah, it's it's it's it's one of the drug

641
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 2: I mean, it's that when you when you hear about

642
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 2: drug in addiction forces, like like police in Rojava, they're

643
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,479
Speaker 2: going after CAPTI Gone. It's a big chunk of both

644
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 2: what kept isis it's it's the it's the purveten, you know,

645
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 2: the meth that Nazis took that for isis right, and

646
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 2: it was also a big chunk of how they got

647
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 2: their funding was was moving and the a Sad regime

648
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: also gets a piece of a lot of the Captigon trade.

649
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 7: It continues to fund these largely like it's the mist

650
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 7: insurgent groups right in the area because it's small and

651
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 7: it's high value, and like Robert, they has to give

652
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 7: it to the fighters. It's this is very common like

653
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,919
Speaker 7: around the world. We we discussed this in miandmar too,

654
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 7: right that the military there take something else called yaba,

655
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 7: But these kind of math derivatives are very common and

656
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 7: they're very commonly sold. That's how a lot of these

657
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 7: non state arm groups get money to buy stuff. Right,

658
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 7: So when we're talking about drug interdiction, it's not done

659
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 7: in a vacuum. It's not done because I could they

660
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 7: think that necessarily that drugs are bad or that you know,

661
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 7: there's some kind of moral failure that comes from the

662
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 7: use of these substances. It's because it allows funding for

663
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,399
Speaker 7: groups that are trying to kill people on the ground.

664
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 7: So like interdicting the drugs is part of an anti

665
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 7: terrorism operation that allows people to live safely, which is

666
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 7: what they deserve after ten plus years of war in

667
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 7: that area. So twenty nine people is a lot of people, right,

668
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 7: twenty nine anti narcotics, I say issues is a lot

669
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 7: of the people who do that job. It's going to

670
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 7: make it significantly harder for them to continue doing that job,

671
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 7: which means it's going to make it significantly easier for

672
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 7: those arm groups to get funding. Right. It's also so

673
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 7: while I was there, there was a massive funeral for

674
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 7: these people. Right, every town, every settlement across where Java

675
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 7: has lost somebody in that strike. Right, So in Kamishlo,

676
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,879
Speaker 7: in Kabani, in Alhasaka, like all these places had big

677
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 7: funerals because you know, three or four or ten people

678
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 7: came from that town and like that's I saw a

679
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 7: little girl like going to her dad's funeral, right, like

680
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,439
Speaker 7: a little girl holding a picture of her dad. And

681
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 7: it's pretty fucked up. Like it's hard for that not

682
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 7: to affect you, especially as like these people weren't fighting anyone,

683
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 7: they weren't attacking anyone, right, they were just they were

684
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 7: taking a training. They were taking an anti narcotics training

685
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 7: at night, and sixty of them were gathering it's building.

686
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 7: Twenty nine were killed, twenty eight injured. It's in the

687
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 7: sort of furthest northeast part of North and Eastsyria, but

688
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 7: around a town called Derek, which is on the board

689
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 7: of it al Malkay Derek. Yeah, Bobody, my pronunciation is

690
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 7: asked al Malachaia might say on the map if if

691
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 7: you're looking at Google Maps, so you're trying to work

692
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 7: out what it is. Lots of these places. The reason

693
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 7: they will have two names is cored edition and Arabic. Right,

694
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 7: So like under the previous side regime, like Arabic was

695
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 7: the sort of language that people were enforced to speak

696
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 7: and use, and now under the self administration, people tend

697
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 7: to use Kurdish, and they tend to use a Latin

698
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 7: script as opposed to an Arabic script. Right, So that's

699
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 7: why you'll see two names very often you're looking on

700
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 7: a map, But like twenty nine is only you know,

701
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 7: there's nineteen other people, mostly civilians, right, who were killed.

702
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 7: Then two million people are now living without power, without water,

703
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 7: and without these basic services, which in turn will result

704
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 7: in more death. Right, More people will die because they

705
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 7: don't have access to those things which are life sustaining, right,

706
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 7: or people, young people, sick people. Both things are the

707
00:40:55,719 --> 00:41:00,280
Speaker 7: very basics of sustaining human life, and so without the

708
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,399
Speaker 7: things are going to get a lot harder. I want

709
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 7: to talk a little bit about like where these drone

710
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:10,399
Speaker 7: strikes happened, because largely aside from the one of their age,

711
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 7: they weren't at like large groups of people or buildings. Instead,

712
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:20,760
Speaker 7: they were like deliberately targeting infrastructure. So of the ones

713
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:22,760
Speaker 7: that I saw and the ones that I read about,

714
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 7: and they targeted like an electricity substation in one case,

715
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 7: they targeted a lot of water facilities, right, like like

716
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,280
Speaker 7: water pumping stations, et cetera that allow people to get water,

717
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 7: a cooking gas plant, which it's pretty obvious what that does, right,

718
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 7: It allows people to get bottles of gas to cook

719
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 7: their food, and a lot of oil in destructures. So

720
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 7: I saw a few of those. Theyre called like donkeys,

721
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 7: you know, the things that go up and down. Yeah

722
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 7: my using the word, I don't.

723
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 3: Know the word, but the little crane.

724
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 7: Things yeah, yeah, yeah, the like the things you can

725
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 7: see if you drive through Bakersfield.

726
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 3: I'm sure there's a name.

727
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, are they oiled derricks? Yeah? Someone someone googled the

728
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,240
Speaker 7: name of the nodding dog.

729
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 3: That pumps jack? Is that no?

730
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:17,399
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's that's the first sounds like like a dude

731
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:19,320
Speaker 7: who goes to the gym a lot, Yeah, broke and

732
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:19,879
Speaker 7: pump jacked.

733
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 3: I mean it is called the an oil donkey as well.

734
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 3: So you were, yeah, nodding donkey pumps. Yeah, that's what

735
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 3: I thought they were, noding donkeys. Okay, Yeah, that's that's

736
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 3: that's a phrase we're going with. So you could see

737
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 3: a lot of these that were like knocked over on

738
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 3: their side, right, that had been drone struck, and then

739
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 3: you could see others that were just knocked out because

740
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 3: the power to them had been knocked out. So obviously

741
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 3: that's not only a major revenue source, but also like

742
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 3: that is how people in the region get fuel, right,

743
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 3: so it's going to be harder for them to get diesels,

744
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 3: going to be harder for them to drive around. People

745
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 3: already don't drive around a lot because a lot of

746
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 3: the drone strikes on people in the yepegay Yepija, so

747
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 3: that the People's Defence Forces and Women's Defense Forces, lots

748
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:08,800
Speaker 3: of drone strikes have happened when those people are driving

749
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 3: their cars, when they get in a car, so it

750
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 3: can be quite hairy driving and a lot of people

751
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 3: were driving too, like I drive around, but that's one

752
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 3: of the areas of risk for people.

753
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 9: Right.

754
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 7: Of the people killed thirty fives as eleven were civilians

755
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 7: and two s efs, so most of these were either

756
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 7: internal security or civilians. And I think Robert you were

757
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 7: Robert and I spoke while I was there, and Robert

758
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 7: made a good point about how this enables these non

759
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:44,439
Speaker 7: state armed groups like either ISIS or like HD.

760
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 2: That my main concern for you while you were there

761
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 2: was not that you would get hit in an air strike,

762
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 2: but it was that because of the damage done to

763
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 2: the security forces as a result of the Turkish are strikes,

764
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 2: you would it would. There's there's always been is as

765
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 2: cells there right that they've never gotten rid of all

766
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: of them. And periods where the A and E. S

767
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 2: self administration is under attack are the periods in which

768
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 2: it's most dangerous because it provides there's less security forces,

769
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,919
Speaker 2: you know, watching everything. People in general are outless, which

770
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 2: provides cover for some of these groups that may want

771
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 2: to do like a kidnapping.

772
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's not a place where a

773
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 7: lot of I guess folks who look like me. That

774
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 7: was a concern for us, and like it's a concern

775
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,280
Speaker 7: for these people too. Write they still do car bombs

776
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 7: in de rezor not, you know that they things still

777
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 7: kill civilians. Yeah, they roll up Isis people on a

778
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,240
Speaker 7: probably weekly basis. People are interested in getting more information

779
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 7: both about the drone strikes and about what they call

780
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 7: sleeper cells. There are Java Information Center, very nice people.

781
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 7: They have a good website. It's Jarva Information Center to org.

782
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 7: They produce monthly report on both things. So that will

783
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 7: give more information on those things. That would be a

784
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:10,280
Speaker 7: good time to pivot to adverts. But I've got all

785
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 7: that is.

786
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 10: Do you know who else provides great services?

787
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,879
Speaker 7: I don't think we can. I don't reasonably make that claim.

788
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 10: The products and services that support this podcast.

789
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 7: Here they are. We're back and we are discussing toerone

790
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 7: strikes on North Easyria. I guess not just from North Asyria,

791
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 7: like these also happen up around Sulimani SOLMANI if you're

792
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 7: looking on the map. Depends again on that language, right,

793
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 7: those have happened again against casey K, which is like

794
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 7: the Kurdistan Communities Council. So that would be the I

795
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 7: guess the if you look at like Syria, Iran, Turkey

796
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 7: and Iraq as different countries, all of which have some

797
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 7: administry to give control over the nation of Kurdish people, right,

798
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 7: Kurdish people live in all four countries, and they live

799
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 7: in other countries too. Of course, then the movements in

800
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,760
Speaker 7: each of those countries are subsidiary to the k CK

801
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 7: and so some of those KKK folks who are up

802
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 7: in Solimani so like that there will be drone strikes

803
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 7: there and that's that's far inside Iraqi Kurdistan, right, You're

804
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 7: you're a long way from the border there, and that's

805
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 7: that's what these drone strikes, I guess. The drone strikes

806
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 7: allow Turkish intelligence in the Turkish military to target people

807
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 7: much much further inside with very little consequent or risk

808
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,240
Speaker 7: on their own. Right, these drones are largely not being

809
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 7: targeted because certainly in an Ees, the Autonomous Administration in

810
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 7: North Eastyria, they don't have the means to target them, right,

811
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 7: the United States hasn't supplied them with the weapons that

812
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 7: they would need to shoot down those drones, which I

813
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 7: think brings me onto the role of the US in

814
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 7: this and I guess more broadly the role of the

815
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 7: coalition in this case. Coalition is a coalition to defeat ISIS. Right,

816
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 7: it's made up of dozens of countries, the UK, the US, Germany,

817
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 7: lots of other Western I guess countries broadly, and countries

818
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 7: in that part of the world too, like I think

819
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 7: Iraq is part of it. Certainly, like Iraqi, Kurdistan has

820
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 7: done their own operations against ISIS sleeper cells, peshmurger and

821
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 7: like everywhere you go, right, you go through Peshmerga checkpoints,

822
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 7: like I was going through an area where they had

823
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 7: arrested an ISIS member the day before, so like it's

824
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 7: they'll be getting you out of the car, you know,

825
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 7: going through your bags, looking through your stuff. Right, So

826
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 7: that's all part of the same operation. But the US

827
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 7: has a base in a place called Alhassaka, which again

828
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 7: you can look up on the map, right, it's a

829
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 7: little west trying to light up my compass here, a

830
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 7: little west of Kamishloh, which is a capital of the region,

831
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 7: and the US pretty much US troops don't do a

832
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 7: great amount of leaving that base. It's fair to say

833
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 7: they'll come out in helicopters. They were going out like

834
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 7: sort of supporting SDF patrols in the Ahuska region, but

835
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 7: they were supporting them from the air. Right. They generally

836
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 7: aren't going out and about like with people on the ground,

837
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 7: talking to people, unless it's a specific mission, which they

838
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,839
Speaker 7: do sometimes you can if people are interested in like

839
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 7: the US presence. It's called Operation Inherent Resolve, And they

840
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:35,720
Speaker 7: have a Twitter account whether sometimes post themselves doing things.

841
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 7: But what they don't do is protect that. And so

842
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 7: the US and the Autonomous Administration are allies in this

843
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 7: fight against ISIS, right, but they are only allied in

844
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 7: this fight against ISIS. The US is not supporting them

845
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 7: in defending themselves from drone strikes or like ensuring that

846
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 7: civilian population is protected from those attacks. So the US

847
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 7: has the capacity city to shoot down these drones, and

848
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 7: they prove that by shooting one down last week or

849
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 7: the week before. I'm a little bit jet legged, so

850
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 7: a bit bugled on time, but I think it was

851
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 7: last week the US shut down a Turkish drones.

852
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 10: It came out two weeks ago for when this is airing. Yes, yeah, sure,

853
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:18,439
Speaker 10: good point.

854
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, so yeah, two weeks ago the United States shut

855
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 7: down and F sixteen shut down a Turkish drone. So

856
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 7: specifically it was a drone called an a Kinji, which

857
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 7: is a newer variant of the Bairaktar drone. We've spoken

858
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 7: about these drones before, right, they're the drones that people like,

859
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 7: I know, you can go on actually and buy a

860
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 7: stuffy version of these drones, which, right, that's concerning.

861
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really dystopian and crazy.

862
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 10: I don't like it.

863
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, I do not like it either. I think it

864
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 7: illustrates the way the war in Ukraine has become like

865
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 7: a football match for some people, yeah yes, or like

866
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 7: a film where like I just want to reinforce it, like.

867
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 10: It's turned into fandom. Yeah yes, yeah.

868
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 7: I think that's an excellent way of putting it. Gara saying, like,

869
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 7: it's not cool when anyone gets fucking drone struck. It's

870
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 7: not cool when, like everyone in an area spends every

871
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 7: night worrying if death is going to come from the

872
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 7: sky at some point, right, Like, the effect of these

873
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 7: drones trucks isn't just on the people killed, or the

874
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 7: people injured, or even the infrastructure. The effect is on

875
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 7: every single person worrying what's going to happen tonight? Right Like,

876
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 7: And I can speak to a tiny part of that experience.

877
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 7: Right Nothing compared to what people are living there have

878
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 7: gone through at all. But it's a concern every time

879
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 7: it gets dark, you know, well it's tonight the night,

880
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 7: especially for the rural folks who might be living in

881
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 7: a rural area but near to a substation, or near

882
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 7: to one of those nodding donkeys or other infrastructure which

883
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,719
Speaker 7: has been targeted, or near a cooking gas plant. Right,

884
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 7: those things I can imagine explode with quite some force.

885
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 7: They can't leave, right, they can't just upen and not

886
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 7: live near any infrastructure. Infrastructures will allows place to be

887
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 7: survivable for civilians, So they just have to live with

888
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 7: this constant fear. And it's very odd to see that

889
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 7: and then simultaneously see this, this sort of deification of

890
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 7: drone strikes that are happening in Ukraine and like this,

891
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 7: you know, people with dog dressed as Napoleon Twitter avatars, Yeah,

892
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 7: cheering someone's kid dying.

893
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:24,800
Speaker 5: Yeah.

894
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 10: I mean throughout all of the kind of new conflicts

895
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 10: we've had the past five years, like the and especially

896
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 10: the past like two three years, Like the idea of

897
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 10: like politics as fandom has produced some of the like

898
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 10: most like inhumane, gross aspects of how people have been

899
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 10: like consuming social media and just the sheer. It's like

900
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 10: people forget that this is like thousands of people's actual,

901
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 10: like human lives that they're like yes, sneaming about, and

902
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 10: it's it just it just becomes just they talk about

903
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 10: it in the same way they talk about like a

904
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 10: Marvel movie or like a star like it's it's it's yeah,

905
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 10: or sports like.

906
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 5: It's it it it.

907
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 10: It's like this weird like gamified it allows you to

908
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 10: to approach these things from a just a from a

909
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 10: very separate perspective when you're when you're viewing it from

910
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:21,439
Speaker 10: like this fandom angle, I think. But politics is fandom

911
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:22,919
Speaker 10: in general. I think it's gotten a whole lot worse

912
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 10: since the Trump era. Ye had, you know, like that's

913
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 10: where we had like resistance libs that were like copying

914
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 10: off some of the stuff from the New Star Wars trilogy,

915
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 10: which is kind of the inspiration for a lot of

916
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 10: their stuff. We got nazi's doing a whole bunch of

917
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 10: politics as fandom as well. It just creates like it's

918
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 10: it's it's like this team sports like fandom thing that

919
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 10: is just pervate.

920
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 5: It's it's it's it's.

921
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 10: Seeped into like almost every single aspect of like not

922
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 10: just politics, but not like conflict and like geopolitics.

923
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 3: It's like whoever has the best branding is the one

924
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,440
Speaker 3: that's has the best chance.

925
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:01,959
Speaker 10: Yeah, and it's I don't know, it's it's disturbing to watch.

926
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:05,720
Speaker 10: I don't know how to like counter counter it because

927
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 10: it feels like the more you engage, the further sucked

928
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 10: into the abyss you become. But it also doesn't feel

929
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 10: good to just like ignore it as well, because it's

930
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 10: just it's like it feels like this kind of endless

931
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 10: trap that is just a part of existing in this

932
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 10: weird postmodern internet world.

933
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,760
Speaker 7: Yeah, I don't know. I think like one would hope

934
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 7: that the Internet in some ways could help us see that,

935
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 7: like at the end of every drone strike is a

936
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,359
Speaker 7: little fucking child most of the time, or like like

937
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,879
Speaker 7: I spent some time last week with a family who

938
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 7: almost exactly one year ago lost their fifteen year old

939
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 7: time in a drone strike, and like it that, Like

940
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 7: I understand people die in these things, like on an

941
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 7: intellectual level and even on a personal level, like having

942
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:52,800
Speaker 7: spent time in these places, you know, for a decent

943
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 7: amount of my life, But fuck me, it's just like

944
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 7: it destroyed you. Like seeing a mum mary her son

945
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 7: cry for her little boy. It's fucking heartbreaking, and like

946
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 7: I got to live that for one morning, and those

947
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 7: people live that every single day and every time. And

948
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 7: I don't, I know, it makes me want to shout

949
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 7: at people when I see this.

950
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 2: I don't actually think it's I don't mean to be

951
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 2: a doomer here. I don't think it's a solvable problem. Yeah,

952
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 2: this is we are talking about it within the language

953
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 2: of fandom because that is kind of the defining public

954
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 2: social relationship of our time. But like, this is always

955
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 2: what people have done to war, one way or the other. Right, Yeah,

956
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 2: it's faster now and more commercial, right, like one thing

957
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, I think just because we're a culturated

958
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:48,319
Speaker 2: to it. Hearing people talk about, you know, doing what

959
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 2: they do in times of war because of patriotism, because

960
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 2: of nationalism, because of belief in the founding principles of

961
00:54:54,600 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 2: their country, seems a little bit less coarse than like

962
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 2: doing it because you fell in with a bunch of

963
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 2: memers who use little dog avatars and shit. But like,

964
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's not it's not like less logical

965
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 2: than than being right or die because like you happen

966
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 2: to be born under you know so and so the king.

967
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 7: Yeah fair, yeah, yeah, and like that dehumanization. I think

968
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 7: the difference, like to me is like, so, like Robert

969
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:29,239
Speaker 7: and I have both experiences right to to in order

970
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 7: to kill somebody, you have to dehumanize them. To kill

971
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 7: people on mass you have to do that on mass, right,

972
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 7: if you're fighting a war, it doesn't behoove you too.

973
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 2: You make it sound like we're killing people, James.

974
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,320
Speaker 7: Well, that's the thing that we do on the podcast

975
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 7: Robert's yeah, we kill people in mass Yeah, yeah, sure,

976
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 7: you're gonna have to school A zone is where we

977
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 7: talk about the killings. People want to subscribe. That's what

978
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 7: we do instead of adverts, is we list the people

979
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 7: we've killed.

980
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:56,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, James, as the as the quote on your Blue

981
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 2: Sky account says, one death is a tragedy, one million

982
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:01,359
Speaker 2: is a statistic messed out.

983
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, that's right, and it's ever every day I

984
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:11,560
Speaker 7: strive to get my number up, you know, but so

985
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,319
Speaker 7: far I've let everyone down. That's not true. And to

986
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 7: my knowledge, none of us have killed anyone but your knowledge,

987
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 7: to my knowledge, yeah, suren's probably got some bodies in

988
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 7: the in the class, you know, Jesus Christ. It's so

989
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:29,359
Speaker 7: what I wanted to say is that like when yeah,

990
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 7: like if you're in the military, you probably know this, right,

991
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 7: like like this sort of blood makes a grass grows, shit, fine, whatever,

992
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 7: Like that's how wars work. War is undesirable. It's horrible.

993
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:41,799
Speaker 7: You have to be horrible, you have to you have

994
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 7: to dehumanize people to kill them. You don't have to

995
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 7: fucking do that if you're on Twitter dot com. But

996
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 7: like people, you know, people with the silly dog advatars chiefly,

997
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:53,879
Speaker 7: but other people to have begun to see themselves as

998
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 7: like participants in conflict in a way that they maybe didn't.

999
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 7: Maybe they did and I just wasn't around in second one.

1000
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,839
Speaker 10: Yeah, No, that's I think I think that does tie

1001
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 10: into part of how the fandom things works, because a

1002
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:08,799
Speaker 10: part of participating in fandom is being in these kind

1003
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 10: of very very alienating online spaces. Because any type of

1004
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 10: like engagement on the Internet in this way is is

1005
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 10: fuel through the process of alienation. But when that kind

1006
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 10: of starts applying to politics, you feel like either the

1007
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 10: act of consuming or or like you know, joining in

1008
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 10: on conversation is itself like a form of activism. By

1009
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 10: just like just through like consuming or sharing content, you

1010
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 10: feel like you're actually participating in the thing itself.

1011
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think some of it's this almost narcissistic

1012
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 2: need to not let the world pass you by because

1013
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 2: it's there. There's something deeply uncomfortable about just like watching

1014
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 2: massive things happen and realizing like there's nothing I can

1015
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 2: do about this. Yeah, to feel like there isn't a

1016
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 2: lot of the time, right, like your your take, you know,

1017
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 2: the the instant a hospital gets attacked in Gaza, your

1018
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 2: take on that is not particularly helpful or necessary unless

1019
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 2: your I don't know Joe Biden, right.

1020
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 5: But which is not.

1021
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 2: I don't think his take was helpful, but right, it

1022
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 2: was like it had an impact because he's the president,

1023
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 2: but like most of us were just kind of part

1024
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 2: of the churn, and there's almost there's like a degree

1025
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 2: of emotional need to it, especially when you see these

1026
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 2: horrible footage of bodies piled high. Right, you feel like

1027
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 2: I'm a bad person if I don't do something, and

1028
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 2: the only thing I can do is tweet or whatever

1029
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 2: your social media, I feel like I.

1030
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 3: Just just to play Devil's advocate for hot sake. I

1031
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 3: think it's a little different when there's so much conflicting information,

1032
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 3: especially I mean, like the Gaza thinks a great example,

1033
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 3: because the electricity is out, they don't want them to

1034
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 3: share anything. So I think when it comes to something

1035
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 3: like that, it's more about like spreading awareness versus like

1036
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 3: having a take. In my opinion, it's more just like, hey,

1037
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 3: the news might say this, but this is from the

1038
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 3: actual person on the ground telling you what's happening. So

1039
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 3: I think there's a little bit of nuance because I

1040
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 3: also think the only reason that like just for Palestine

1041
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 3: for example, just is we don't have to go into

1042
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 3: it too much. But a huge reason why there's so

1043
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 3: much more support for the Palestinian movement is because of

1044
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:23,680
Speaker 3: social media.

1045
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, so definitely, Yeah, people see people in Gaza as

1046
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:30,600
Speaker 7: people now, not as statistics or just through the lens

1047
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:33,360
Speaker 7: of Hamas or rightever, like yeah.

1048
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it depends. I think it depends on

1049
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 2: how you do it, and like I mean, it is

1050
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 2: it is accurate to say that to a significant extent,

1051
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 2: the ultimate outcome of these conflicts are determined in large

1052
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:50,440
Speaker 2: part due to public sympathy, right Like, That's going to

1053
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 2: be probably true of, however, things that ultimately shake out

1054
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 2: in Gaza, and it's certainly been true of the conflict

1055
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 2: in Ukraine, right Like. The degree to which weapons keep

1056
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 2: flowing to that country is going to be heavily based

1057
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:10,480
Speaker 2: on the degree to which sympathy for that cause remains

1058
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 2: among US taxpayers and taxpayers in other countries that are

1059
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 2: sending them those weapons. That's going to have an impact

1060
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 2: on the presidential election. Maybe. I mean that is the

1061
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 2: other thing, right that, like everyone who is engaging with

1062
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 2: this stuff via social media, there's a tendency to get

1063
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 2: caught up in a bubble in terms of just thinking

1064
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 2: about how much this is on the mind of like

1065
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 2: American voters. Maybe it'll be different this election, but generally,

1066
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 2: like again, my feelings on this are kind of muddled,

1067
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:42,160
Speaker 2: but like very very often, no matter how big a

1068
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 2: deal a story is, you know, online and stuff, American

1069
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:52,240
Speaker 2: voters rarely vote based on foreign policy concerns. Yeah, I

1070
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 2: want to say, I'm not saying that's what matters morally.

1071
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 7: I'm just talking about like you're totally correct. Yeah, yeah,

1072
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 7: and especially in terms of your ability to influence something,

1073
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 7: it doesn't matter how much if other people don't. An

1074
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 7: election time, I want to maybe finish up. I've just

1075
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 7: knocked over bottle of os of procole alcohols. My office

1076
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 7: is rapidly becoming.

1077
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 5: Yourself.

1078
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 7: That's why I went to turn on the fan and

1079
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 7: open the door. Good times. So maybe I want to

1080
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 7: finish up before I evacuate. By saying that that it's

1081
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 7: something you can do, and like it's to give your

1082
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:27,960
Speaker 7: time and money. I know that doesn't feel as good

1083
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 7: as like, yeah, you know, trying to do amateur ocin

1084
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 7: on Reddit. But you can help, actually, like and you

1085
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 7: can make a meaningful difference with a few bucks. And

1086
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 7: I know I sound like an MPR advert now, but

1087
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 7: like the Rajarv Information Center has some good resources and

1088
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:47,640
Speaker 7: like they they have, I'm not going to read them

1089
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 7: because it's very complicated. Like I said, it's bank transfer information.

1090
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 7: But if you feel helpless, you are not, Like you

1091
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 7: can do a lot with a little. You can raise money,

1092
01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 7: you can help to organize donations, right that like this,

1093
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:02,520
Speaker 7: these things make a difference. If someone who doesn't have

1094
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 7: water now gets a palette of bottled water, that makes

1095
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:07,720
Speaker 7: a difference. If someone gets a heater for their home,

1096
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 7: that makes a difference. If even if it's someone whose

1097
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 7: kid has died, right like making their life a little

1098
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,560
Speaker 7: less painful in a physical sense, rightly helping them be

1099
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 7: warm at night, that does make a difference. And you

1100
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 7: can do that. And if you want to make a difference,

1101
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:25,000
Speaker 7: I would really encourage you to do whatever it is.

1102
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:27,439
Speaker 7: And it doesn't have to be here, right, It's happened

1103
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:30,640
Speaker 7: that there's like there's an ethnic cleansing happening in azabadiant

1104
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:34,440
Speaker 7: there is an ethnic cleansing happening in Gaza, right, Like

1105
01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 7: these are places where like you can show meaningful solidarity

1106
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 7: and support with a little bit of a donation or

1107
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:43,840
Speaker 7: a fundraiser. It's happening at our fucking border, right, Like

1108
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 7: someone died at our border since I last recording. Someone

1109
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:49,480
Speaker 7: else got run over by some child in the truck

1110
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:53,320
Speaker 7: or like you can make a difference in a meaningful

1111
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 7: way with actions, And it's really easy to get sucked

1112
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 7: into like just posting into the void and feeling helpless,

1113
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 7: but like very helpful things you can do.

1114
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 10: Yeah, and you don't have to just you don't have

1115
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 10: to be like rich or have a lot of disposable

1116
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:12,520
Speaker 10: income to do this. There's a lot of like traditionally

1117
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 10: anarchist communities have put on benefit shows to run to

1118
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:21,840
Speaker 10: fundraise from an entire community. So that's not just you

1119
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:24,400
Speaker 10: trying to you know, you know, put like your few

1120
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 10: pennies aside. Uh, there is there's ways, there's ways to

1121
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:31,640
Speaker 10: do this that just involve you actually like getting involved

1122
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:35,040
Speaker 10: with your like local culture, and a part of that

1123
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 10: is like it's not politics as fandom. It is metapolitics.

1124
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:41,040
Speaker 10: It's where you actually put your politics into your into

1125
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:44,440
Speaker 10: your actual everyday life and it influences the friends you have,

1126
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:47,680
Speaker 10: the communities you have. So whether that's you know, a

1127
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 10: whole bunch of trans musicians doing a benefit show to

1128
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 10: to get donations to send over to Rajava or send

1129
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:57,360
Speaker 10: over to to Gaza, or you know, there's a lot

1130
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 10: of other sorts of things that that is a way

1131
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 10: of actually having part of your politics be not just

1132
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:07,040
Speaker 10: like consumption have not. It's not just like Twitter accounts

1133
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 10: with flags and your avatar. It's actually like living your

1134
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 10: life in a way that matches the things that you believe.

1135
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 7: And I think that that like, sorry, having spoken to

1136
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:20,200
Speaker 7: people in Java in the Yepigae and the Yepijay and

1137
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:22,760
Speaker 7: these other organizations, Like one of the things that makes

1138
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:25,720
Speaker 7: them distinct from other militaries is that they are building

1139
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:28,680
Speaker 7: the world they want to see while they're fighting against

1140
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:30,840
Speaker 7: the thing that's killing it, right like they're destroying it.

1141
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:33,240
Speaker 7: Like a lot of times we'll see leftist military is

1142
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 7: not exactly doing the equality. The leftism is about one hopes.

1143
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:42,960
Speaker 7: So like you can participate in that, as Garrison said,

1144
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 7: right by doing the mutual aid by doing the benefit show,

1145
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:47,960
Speaker 7: by doing the fundraiser, Like, you are making a world

1146
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 7: in which this shit will happen less when you do

1147
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 7: things to stop it happening or to ease the pain

1148
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 7: of it happening.

1149
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:55,080
Speaker 11: Now.

1150
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:58,600
Speaker 7: So and you're building communities, right and in strong communities

1151
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 7: are more resilient to this shit. Yeah, And like things

1152
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:04,960
Speaker 7: are getting pretty bleak and we're only going to get

1153
01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:07,760
Speaker 7: through them by helping each other and building a network

1154
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:10,479
Speaker 7: that continue. Like, if I think about how much better

1155
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:12,760
Speaker 7: the mutual aid response has been this time to what's

1156
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:14,880
Speaker 7: happened at the border compared to what it was in May.

1157
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 7: That's because people built networks didn't go away, and it

1158
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 7: was good in May in part because we built networks

1159
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 7: that help to make being gun housed in San Diego

1160
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 7: feel be survivable. Right, And like those networks are resilient

1161
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:33,800
Speaker 7: and they're flexible, and they help us like mentally process

1162
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 7: all the horrible shit and also physically help people. So yeah,

1163
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 7: you have that within your means too, Right, you have

1164
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 7: a signal on your telephone, like you can organize things.

1165
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:47,120
Speaker 7: I don't have to feel helpless, but I feel dizzy

1166
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:50,240
Speaker 7: due today, I suppose, but alcoholic that has feeled. So

1167
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:52,479
Speaker 7: maybe that's a wonderful time to end.

1168
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:56,680
Speaker 2: The All right, everyone, James is going to hallucinate in

1169
01:05:56,760 --> 01:06:00,560
Speaker 2: his office, and you, I hope are going to hallucinate

1170
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:01,680
Speaker 2: wherever you happen.

1171
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 7: To be right now. Enjoy the better world.

1172
01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 2: Hallucinate the better world. It might be the only way

1173
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:12,320
Speaker 2: to live through one wonderful podcast.

1174
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:18,160
Speaker 7: To Garrison Davis's everyone, Hi, it's me James. You thought

1175
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:21,360
Speaker 7: I died, but I have not. I survived the I

1176
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:24,680
Speaker 7: superbot alcohol fumes. I wouldn't advise doing that to yourself.

1177
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 7: Very unpleasant, But I'm back just to update you. We

1178
01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:30,640
Speaker 7: recorded that last week and I am recording this today

1179
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:32,760
Speaker 7: before this goes out, So I'm recording this on the

1180
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:35,680
Speaker 7: afternoon of Monday, the twenty third of October. I just

1181
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 7: wanted to update everyone. As Robert mentioned in the show,

1182
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:45,480
Speaker 7: the weakening of the essay shrint and the fact that

1183
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 7: people are not able to be out and about because

1184
01:06:47,840 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 7: of these drone strikes, combined with the events in Israel

1185
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:54,880
Speaker 7: and Palestine in the last couple of weeks, have resulted

1186
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:57,680
Speaker 7: in a significant uptake in violence in the area. So

1187
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:00,680
Speaker 7: I just wanted to update you on that. I've seen

1188
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:03,480
Speaker 7: a decent amount of misinformation, which will be shocking to

1189
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 7: many of you on Twitter dot com. So there have

1190
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:10,000
Speaker 7: been a series of rocket and uav UOV and manned

1191
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:14,680
Speaker 7: aerial vehicle right drones drone attacks on US bases across

1192
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:19,000
Speaker 7: the north of Iraq and across Syria. So some of

1193
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:21,040
Speaker 7: those happened Altant, which is further south. Some of them

1194
01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:24,480
Speaker 7: happened to Al Hussaka. Some of them also happened to

1195
01:07:24,520 --> 01:07:27,400
Speaker 7: oil pipelines. And I would be very wary of people

1196
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 7: posting pictures of big fires and claiming that there are

1197
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:32,800
Speaker 7: attacks at the US Bass. Every time I've seen that,

1198
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:34,920
Speaker 7: it's actually been an attack on an oil pipeline, and

1199
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:37,800
Speaker 7: either the person doesn't know that that's not a US

1200
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:40,400
Speaker 7: base or they are wilfully being leading to try and

1201
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 7: get more clicks. People get paid on Twitter for engagement now,

1202
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,440
Speaker 7: so I'm quite cynical about people's reasons for doing that.

1203
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 7: But there definitely have been attacks that they have not

1204
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:52,240
Speaker 7: resulted in much loss of life. One contractor I believe

1205
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:56,160
Speaker 7: did lose their lives due to Carliac incident that happened

1206
01:07:56,200 --> 01:07:59,440
Speaker 7: when they were sheltering from a what turned out to

1207
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:01,520
Speaker 7: be a false alarm of a drone attack, but no

1208
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:04,800
Speaker 7: one has been directly killed by the drone munitions. There

1209
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:08,880
Speaker 7: have been a number of people killed in increasing conflict

1210
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:13,160
Speaker 7: in the area. Both one person was killed in Khamishlo

1211
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:15,520
Speaker 7: very very close to where I stayed. Actually, you can

1212
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:18,519
Speaker 7: probably see it from my Houtolium in a car bomb,

1213
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 7: which is not a normal thing to happen in the

1214
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:23,440
Speaker 7: middle of that city, a car bomb going off, So

1215
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:27,720
Speaker 7: that's obviously caused for concern for some people in Derrazor.

1216
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:32,959
Speaker 7: SDF and coalition forces have conducted a number of operations

1217
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:36,679
Speaker 7: against ISIS sleeper cells who are still there, arrested, obtained

1218
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:39,519
Speaker 7: a number of suspected ISIS members. They've also been fighting

1219
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:43,599
Speaker 7: against Iranian backed militias across the Euphrates. We've also seen

1220
01:08:44,720 --> 01:08:48,120
Speaker 7: fighting between the Peshmerga, so that those are the military

1221
01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:51,920
Speaker 7: forces of the Kurdist down regional government in that area

1222
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:56,400
Speaker 7: of Iraq and the Iraqi Army around the Macmaal refugee camp,

1223
01:08:56,520 --> 01:08:59,240
Speaker 7: which is a refugee camp for Kurdish people who have

1224
01:08:59,320 --> 01:09:03,599
Speaker 7: fled from turky And of course we've seen a lot

1225
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 7: of threats, a lot of even fighting inside Iran, but

1226
01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:10,559
Speaker 7: it it's generally be an Iranian back to relations attacking

1227
01:09:11,280 --> 01:09:16,040
Speaker 7: US spaces so far across that whole area. So I

1228
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 7: just wanted to update you on those things. Obviously we'll

1229
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:21,000
Speaker 7: keep updating you on them, and also to just suggest

1230
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:24,639
Speaker 7: once again that people verify the sources of information because

1231
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:26,800
Speaker 7: I have seen, especially about this area where I think

1232
01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:29,640
Speaker 7: literacy is very low among the general US populations, and

1233
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:31,720
Speaker 7: outrageous claims being made by people who either don't know

1234
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 7: what they're talking about or are wilfully misleading people. So

1235
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:38,479
Speaker 7: I wanted to counsel people to be concerned about that.

1236
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 7: We don't have exact I don't have exact numbers of

1237
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:42,839
Speaker 7: the numbers of drone attacks. I'm looking at a Pentagon

1238
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:45,120
Speaker 7: press conference that happened thirty nine minutes ago, and then

1239
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:48,840
Speaker 7: they're not giving them out there. So I have asked

1240
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:50,519
Speaker 7: them for comment on a couple of things. So didn't

1241
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:54,360
Speaker 7: email me back, very sad ghosting me. Bit, Yeah, that's

1242
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:56,519
Speaker 7: the latest information on that. I wanted to make sure

1243
01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:58,160
Speaker 7: that we have the leader's update for you.

1244
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:17,240
Speaker 2: Welcome back to it could happen here. I am Robert Evans,

1245
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:21,559
Speaker 2: and this is a podcast about things falling apart. Sometimes

1246
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:24,479
Speaker 2: it's about how to make things not fall apart, and

1247
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:27,800
Speaker 2: other times it's more about enduring it. Today is more

1248
01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:30,080
Speaker 2: on the endurance side of things, and we're talking about

1249
01:10:30,080 --> 01:10:32,880
Speaker 2: a subject that we get a lot of requests about here.

1250
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:35,680
Speaker 2: We've discussed this a year or so ago with one

1251
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:38,559
Speaker 2: of our guests, a great Carl Casarta. We're talking about

1252
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:42,280
Speaker 2: like security culture, and particularly the aspect of security culture

1253
01:10:42,280 --> 01:10:45,799
Speaker 2: that involves digital devices and how to communicate with your friends'

1254
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:51,360
Speaker 2: affinity groups, whomever via your phone essentially or your computer.

1255
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:54,519
Speaker 2: This is a thing where there's a huge amount of

1256
01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:58,040
Speaker 2: disinformation as to which apps are safe. What does it

1257
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:00,479
Speaker 2: actually mean to say that an app is a cryptied

1258
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:03,599
Speaker 2: How far does encryption get you? What sort of like

1259
01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:08,800
Speaker 2: cultural things come alongside the actual, like physical reality of

1260
01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:11,360
Speaker 2: the security of the device in order to kind of

1261
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:14,840
Speaker 2: make a comprehensive security profile. We're gonna be talking about

1262
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:16,799
Speaker 2: all that today and hopefully giving you some good advice

1263
01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:19,519
Speaker 2: on what you can trust. Because I am the furthest

1264
01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:22,519
Speaker 2: thing in the world from a technical expert. We have

1265
01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:26,960
Speaker 2: two actual experts with us today. Carolyn Senders and Cooper

1266
01:11:27,040 --> 01:11:30,760
Speaker 2: Quinton have both recently published a paper alongside several other

1267
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:35,639
Speaker 2: authors Leila Wagner, Tim Bernard, Ami Meta, and Justin Hendricks

1268
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:40,080
Speaker 2: called What is Secure? An Analysis of Popular Messaging Apps,

1269
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:43,839
Speaker 2: and it's it's basically going over what is the actual

1270
01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:47,240
Speaker 2: level of security with a number of things like Telegram,

1271
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:52,280
Speaker 2: you know, Telegram's private messaging system, Facebook Messenger, Apple Message,

1272
01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:55,960
Speaker 2: or I Message. I guess it's called and obviously signal

1273
01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 2: and kind of as a spoiler, signal is your best bet.

1274
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:01,760
Speaker 2: But that also isn't where you should end, right, I

1275
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:03,439
Speaker 2: think we want to also talk about kind of like

1276
01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:06,719
Speaker 2: why and to what extent that's the case. But anyway,

1277
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:09,080
Speaker 2: I'm going to turn things over to Carolyn and Cooper

1278
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:12,840
Speaker 2: now because I have talked enough about this. Hey, guys,

1279
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:13,639
Speaker 2: welcome to the show.

1280
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:17,200
Speaker 9: Hey, Robert, thanks so much for having us on.

1281
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:19,320
Speaker 6: Yeah ah yeah, thank you so much.

1282
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:23,479
Speaker 12: A big fan of the podcast, so always lovely, really

1283
01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:24,280
Speaker 12: lovely to be here.

1284
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:25,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, thank you so much.

1285
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:29,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really lovely to have you both again. Listeners.

1286
01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:32,040
Speaker 2: If you want to take a look at this their paper,

1287
01:12:32,040 --> 01:12:34,439
Speaker 2: if you just google what is Secure and Analysis of

1288
01:12:34,479 --> 01:12:37,439
Speaker 2: Popular Messaging Apps, you'll find the Tech Policy Press has

1289
01:12:37,680 --> 01:12:40,200
Speaker 2: a summary of it that's pretty quick. The full paper

1290
01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:43,160
Speaker 2: is eighty six pages or so. I also recommend reading that,

1291
01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:45,160
Speaker 2: but if you wanted to give this, you know, the

1292
01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:48,120
Speaker 2: summary a skim before you continue, that might help. But

1293
01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 2: I kind of wanted to start by asking you, guys,

1294
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:54,759
Speaker 2: what is it that makes signal a good option for people?

1295
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:55,040
Speaker 5: Right?

1296
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:57,479
Speaker 2: Because I think most folks you describe it as sort

1297
01:12:57,479 --> 01:13:00,400
Speaker 2: of security folklore, right, this the stuff that you hear

1298
01:13:00,439 --> 01:13:02,960
Speaker 2: about security from your friends, and if you're not a

1299
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:05,479
Speaker 2: technical person, you kind of just like trust what the

1300
01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:07,360
Speaker 2: folks around you were saying. And that was sort of

1301
01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:10,360
Speaker 2: how I got into Signal. Right, I'm not a technical person,

1302
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:12,479
Speaker 2: but people I knew and trusted who were were like,

1303
01:13:12,520 --> 01:13:13,519
Speaker 2: this is your best option?

1304
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:15,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, thank you so much.

1305
01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 12: That's such a good question, and I think Cooper and

1306
01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:20,920
Speaker 12: I probably have similar but also like very different answers

1307
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:21,320
Speaker 12: to it.

1308
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:23,719
Speaker 6: Cooper, I can go first if you want.

1309
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 12: One of the things I love about Signal is it's

1310
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:29,639
Speaker 12: just really easy to use. It's in and encrypted, it's

1311
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:32,080
Speaker 12: a messaging app. There's not a lot of stuff on it,

1312
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:34,800
Speaker 12: but you can do a lot with it. So you

1313
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:38,160
Speaker 12: can do video calls, you can send actually pretty large

1314
01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:41,120
Speaker 12: files like PDFs. You can have drag and drop stuff,

1315
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:45,160
Speaker 12: it's like such a low threshold for use for users

1316
01:13:45,479 --> 01:13:47,600
Speaker 12: because it is a messaging app, but it does so

1317
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:50,720
Speaker 12: many different kinds of things. But then related to that,

1318
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:54,360
Speaker 12: it's also actually quite minimal. So the paper which everyone

1319
01:13:54,400 --> 01:13:57,559
Speaker 12: should read, and we'll probably get into this later. Different

1320
01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:02,960
Speaker 12: apps like Telegram or of Facebook's Messenger app, for example,

1321
01:14:03,160 --> 01:14:05,240
Speaker 12: have have this thing we've been.

1322
01:14:05,160 --> 01:14:06,280
Speaker 6: Calling a feature bloat.

1323
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:09,599
Speaker 12: They are messaging services that actually feel a bit more

1324
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:11,920
Speaker 12: like social networks if you look at the amount of

1325
01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:14,280
Speaker 12: stuff that's on there, and by stuff, I don't just

1326
01:14:14,360 --> 01:14:17,320
Speaker 12: mean like stickers, I mean if you look at there's

1327
01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:20,519
Speaker 12: all these sort of specific and strange settings you can

1328
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:23,360
Speaker 12: use to have all different kinds of messages and all

1329
01:14:23,360 --> 01:14:26,720
Speaker 12: different kinds of privacy settings, and all privacy settings.

1330
01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:27,360
Speaker 6: Are really really great.

1331
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:32,479
Speaker 12: Because Telegram and Facebook Messenger are not encrypted by default,

1332
01:14:32,520 --> 01:14:34,880
Speaker 12: actually some of those settings can make you feel more

1333
01:14:34,880 --> 01:14:37,160
Speaker 12: secure when you're not so. Kind of the beauty of

1334
01:14:37,200 --> 01:14:40,200
Speaker 12: Signal is that out of the box, it's incredibly secure.

1335
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:43,920
Speaker 12: It's an encrypted they're not holding any data about you.

1336
01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:44,679
Speaker 6: I believe.

1337
01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:47,280
Speaker 12: The only only day they hold is like when you've

1338
01:14:47,479 --> 01:14:50,520
Speaker 12: like when a phone number or a profile has downloaded

1339
01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:53,960
Speaker 12: Signal like when you've when you've signed up. But again

1340
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:59,000
Speaker 12: it's it's incredibly easy to use. And another thing is,

1341
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:00,640
Speaker 12: you know, if this was a few years ago, we've

1342
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:02,760
Speaker 12: been looking at wire for example, when the nice things

1343
01:15:02,800 --> 01:15:05,880
Speaker 12: about Signal, and this might be controversial to some designers,

1344
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:08,719
Speaker 12: is that it does follow modern design patterns and standards.

1345
01:15:08,720 --> 01:15:11,680
Speaker 12: So if you're using an iOS or Android version, like

1346
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:14,639
Speaker 12: there are buttons in places where you expect them to be.

1347
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:20,280
Speaker 12: Signal is not perfectly designed, but it is quite usable. Yeah,

1348
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:22,280
Speaker 12: So for me, that's kind of what I think makes

1349
01:15:22,320 --> 01:15:23,839
Speaker 12: it makes it really wonderful.

1350
01:15:24,120 --> 01:15:27,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's definitely as much as I love it, and

1351
01:15:27,320 --> 01:15:30,320
Speaker 2: it's my like standard messaging app I do every now

1352
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 2: and then run into the thing where like my friends

1353
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:34,080
Speaker 2: will call me through Signal, which is great if you

1354
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:36,599
Speaker 2: need a call to be secure, but it's not nearly

1355
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:38,720
Speaker 2: as good, Like it drops a lot more often than

1356
01:15:38,760 --> 01:15:41,160
Speaker 2: a regular phone call and I'm like, we're just trying

1357
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:43,120
Speaker 2: to meet at the movie theater. It's okay if the

1358
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:46,720
Speaker 2: NSA no, right, Like, I've definitely.

1359
01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:48,240
Speaker 12: Had that with friends where I'm like I'm like, yeah,

1360
01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:52,080
Speaker 12: I'm like, we're just calling to talk about like your dog.

1361
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:56,280
Speaker 2: It's probably fine, Yeah, the FBI can have this stuff.

1362
01:15:56,600 --> 01:16:00,280
Speaker 12: Yeah, please send, please send, please send dog picks through

1363
01:16:00,720 --> 01:16:01,960
Speaker 12: all messaging apps.

1364
01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:06,280
Speaker 9: You know. But on that note, it's uh writing, writing

1365
01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:10,920
Speaker 9: usable software that is also secure is really hard, right,

1366
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:15,000
Speaker 9: And like as a like as cryptographer, I'm not a cryptographer,

1367
01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:18,920
Speaker 9: but like as somebody cryptographer adjacent, we got that wrong

1368
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:22,920
Speaker 9: for a long time, right, like before Signal the problem,

1369
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:25,800
Speaker 9: you know, there were the the the sort of most

1370
01:16:25,960 --> 01:16:30,360
Speaker 9: used encryption methods were probably uh PGP email, which is

1371
01:16:30,360 --> 01:16:33,559
Speaker 9: a method for encrypting email, and off the record chats,

1372
01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:37,200
Speaker 9: and both of those none of those ever got to

1373
01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:40,760
Speaker 9: the sort of level of user base that Signal and

1374
01:16:41,080 --> 01:16:45,679
Speaker 9: and certainly not WhatsApp have, right, And and that's largely

1375
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:50,320
Speaker 9: because they were pretty much unusable, like PGP, almost entirely

1376
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:54,799
Speaker 9: unusable even by cryptography professionals, right, even by computer security

1377
01:16:54,800 --> 01:16:59,519
Speaker 9: professionals like ourselves. OTR chat total pain in the butt, right,

1378
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:04,120
Speaker 9: like just a real nightmare to use. So, like Signal,

1379
01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:06,679
Speaker 9: there are still some rough edges, and we talked about

1380
01:17:06,680 --> 01:17:09,720
Speaker 9: some of those in our paper, But overall, I think

1381
01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:12,000
Speaker 9: that the big, the big innovation they've had is just

1382
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:15,439
Speaker 9: remembering that what people want to do on a chat

1383
01:17:15,479 --> 01:17:18,280
Speaker 9: app is not encrypt things. What people want to do

1384
01:17:18,320 --> 01:17:20,240
Speaker 9: on a chat app is they want to they want

1385
01:17:20,240 --> 01:17:23,479
Speaker 9: to chat right. And and the second that that that

1386
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:25,760
Speaker 9: the security sort of gets in the way of that,

1387
01:17:26,320 --> 01:17:28,400
Speaker 9: people will stop using it and go find something that's

1388
01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:31,479
Speaker 9: more usable. And it seems like that's been Signals sort

1389
01:17:31,479 --> 01:17:35,759
Speaker 9: of guiding star and it's and they've you know, doing

1390
01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:38,479
Speaker 9: the doing the most secure thing that you can well

1391
01:17:38,560 --> 01:17:44,160
Speaker 9: still being fun and usable to actually just chat on right,

1392
01:17:44,240 --> 01:17:46,400
Speaker 9: And I think that that has served them quite well.

1393
01:17:47,240 --> 01:17:51,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's it's it's so important. One of

1394
01:17:51,320 --> 01:17:53,400
Speaker 2: I think one of the things that that contributes to

1395
01:17:53,479 --> 01:17:57,840
Speaker 2: good overall security is setting yourself up for success, which

1396
01:17:57,880 --> 01:18:00,400
Speaker 2: means setting yourself up for a system that can function

1397
01:18:00,479 --> 01:18:02,360
Speaker 2: well if you're lazy, which is one of the nice

1398
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:04,240
Speaker 2: things that you know, with Signal, you don't have to

1399
01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:06,559
Speaker 2: worry about like opting in and out and like selecting

1400
01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:09,280
Speaker 2: a bunch of stuff. It's pretty safe, especially for a

1401
01:18:09,280 --> 01:18:12,479
Speaker 2: normal person's uses right out of the box, which is

1402
01:18:12,600 --> 01:18:15,479
Speaker 2: huge and kind of in the same line as that

1403
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:18,639
Speaker 2: is the fact that because Signal doesn't store metadata, you're

1404
01:18:18,640 --> 01:18:22,200
Speaker 2: not relying upon them being like committed, you know, anti

1405
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:25,879
Speaker 2: state actors or whatever like, because they don't have access

1406
01:18:25,920 --> 01:18:28,280
Speaker 2: to the thing that, for example, Facebook will hand over

1407
01:18:28,360 --> 01:18:31,000
Speaker 2: to the cops if the cops just like breathe in

1408
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:31,599
Speaker 2: their direction.

1409
01:18:33,479 --> 01:18:36,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's that's exactly right, And that's that is That

1410
01:18:36,200 --> 01:18:38,200
Speaker 9: is the other really cool thing about Signal. You know, we,

1411
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:42,000
Speaker 9: as Carolyn said, the only data that Signal gives over

1412
01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:46,759
Speaker 9: in response to a subpoena is the time that the

1413
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:49,040
Speaker 9: phone number signed up for Signal account and the last

1414
01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:51,559
Speaker 9: time it connected to the Signal server. And the reason

1415
01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:55,600
Speaker 9: we know that is because Signal publishes transparency reports with

1416
01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:58,800
Speaker 9: the full text and full response of any subpoena that

1417
01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:02,320
Speaker 9: they get, so like, we can actually just see in

1418
01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:04,960
Speaker 9: the responses that all they've given over is these two

1419
01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:07,599
Speaker 9: pieces of information, because that's all they have, and they've

1420
01:19:07,600 --> 01:19:10,599
Speaker 9: done some pretty clever things to make that be.

1421
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:13,599
Speaker 12: The case, right, And that's actually so different than how

1422
01:19:14,040 --> 01:19:18,280
Speaker 12: other companies are i think, reporting on either subpoenas or

1423
01:19:18,400 --> 01:19:19,080
Speaker 12: any kind of.

1424
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:22,479
Speaker 6: Weight that law enforcement puts on them.

1425
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:25,840
Speaker 12: So for our report, I don't remember how much's it's

1426
01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:29,000
Speaker 12: mentioned in the report actually, but we did go through

1427
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:34,040
Speaker 12: and look at Apple Meta and I think Google, like

1428
01:19:34,120 --> 01:19:36,599
Speaker 12: in their own transparency reports to try to get a

1429
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:41,160
Speaker 12: sense of how that would stack up in comparison to Signals.

1430
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:45,440
Speaker 12: I think in some cases it's saying like they received

1431
01:19:46,160 --> 01:19:49,880
Speaker 12: some kind of like notification, but like no, nothing really

1432
01:19:49,880 --> 01:19:54,120
Speaker 12: clear or specific on what they received from law enforcement

1433
01:19:54,240 --> 01:19:56,840
Speaker 12: or government, but rather just that they received one. And

1434
01:19:56,880 --> 01:19:58,840
Speaker 12: so that's also the really great thing about Signal is

1435
01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:02,880
Speaker 12: you are getting all this information that you're not getting

1436
01:20:03,320 --> 01:20:05,880
Speaker 12: from other companies or platforms.

1437
01:20:06,479 --> 01:20:09,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I wanted to kind of in the

1438
01:20:09,920 --> 01:20:12,719
Speaker 2: same subject and going back to we kind of opened

1439
01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:16,760
Speaker 2: this introducing the concept that y'all introduced me to. I

1440
01:20:16,760 --> 01:20:18,920
Speaker 2: guess I was aware of this, but not the terminology

1441
01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:21,519
Speaker 2: security folklore, and I wanted to chat a little bit

1442
01:20:21,520 --> 01:20:23,479
Speaker 2: about kind of the most recent example of this something

1443
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:26,000
Speaker 2: a lot of folks have probably been wondering about since

1444
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:28,640
Speaker 2: we started talking about Signal, which is that roughly a

1445
01:20:28,680 --> 01:20:32,760
Speaker 2: week before y'all and I sat down to talk about this,

1446
01:20:33,760 --> 01:20:37,720
Speaker 2: a kind of viral info meme started coming through that

1447
01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:41,640
Speaker 2: was like Signal has a zero day exploit, which is

1448
01:20:42,000 --> 01:20:44,559
Speaker 2: basically a hole that a hacker found in an Apple

1449
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:48,840
Speaker 2: program that is that can't expose you. You have to turn

1450
01:20:49,000 --> 01:20:52,840
Speaker 2: off link previews, right, which is that when you when

1451
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:55,479
Speaker 2: someone sends you like a link to an article in Signal,

1452
01:20:55,680 --> 01:20:58,160
Speaker 2: you get a little preview, not not dissimilar to how

1453
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:02,519
Speaker 2: I think to be fair, just based on my very

1454
01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:05,160
Speaker 2: limited knowledge, that is, when I think about, like, what

1455
01:21:05,240 --> 01:21:07,960
Speaker 2: are potential holes in Signal, I don't think it's unreasonable

1456
01:21:07,960 --> 01:21:11,799
Speaker 2: to be concerned about that specific feature. But that warning

1457
01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:14,479
Speaker 2: was not what it kind of seemed to be basically

1458
01:21:14,560 --> 01:21:16,120
Speaker 2: or not as accurate as I think a lot of

1459
01:21:16,160 --> 01:21:17,200
Speaker 2: people took it as being.

1460
01:21:17,240 --> 01:21:17,519
Speaker 10: I know.

1461
01:21:17,600 --> 01:21:19,280
Speaker 2: I'll I'll tell I'll turn it over to you, guys.

1462
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:20,719
Speaker 2: I think that's the next thing I want to talk about.

1463
01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:24,680
Speaker 6: I'll turn it over to Cooper who had you had? Ah?

1464
01:21:25,640 --> 01:21:27,040
Speaker 6: You have a lot of feels about that.

1465
01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:31,080
Speaker 9: I have so many feelings about this. I was working

1466
01:21:31,120 --> 01:21:35,080
Speaker 9: on this all weekend. So this Yeah, so this copy pasta.

1467
01:21:35,320 --> 01:21:38,759
Speaker 9: I'm calling this like the Signal copy pasta. Yeah, which

1468
01:21:38,800 --> 01:21:42,240
Speaker 9: is a term from you know, four Chan and other

1469
01:21:42,280 --> 01:21:43,400
Speaker 9: horrible Internet places.

1470
01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:47,880
Speaker 6: But some media audience is probably Internet enough.

1471
01:21:48,680 --> 01:21:48,880
Speaker 11: Yeah.

1472
01:21:48,880 --> 01:21:51,439
Speaker 2: I'm gonna guess a good half of the people listening

1473
01:21:51,439 --> 01:21:53,320
Speaker 2: at least got that message.

1474
01:21:53,360 --> 01:21:53,719
Speaker 13: Yeah.

1475
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:57,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, And it's it's like, first of all, this is

1476
01:21:57,880 --> 01:22:01,639
Speaker 9: not if you if you have a zero DA and signal,

1477
01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:03,439
Speaker 9: which is it, which is an exploit for signal that

1478
01:22:03,479 --> 01:22:06,200
Speaker 9: has been unpatched, that has not been patched by the vendor,

1479
01:22:06,240 --> 01:22:09,000
Speaker 9: so you can actively exploit it. There are no people

1480
01:22:09,040 --> 01:22:15,040
Speaker 9: in the world who would choose to quietly leak this

1481
01:22:15,240 --> 01:22:18,880
Speaker 9: over you know, over vague signal texts. There are two

1482
01:22:18,960 --> 01:22:23,040
Speaker 9: types of people. One uh, you know, people like us

1483
01:22:23,080 --> 01:22:25,479
Speaker 9: that would bring this to signal immediately and get them

1484
01:22:25,520 --> 01:22:28,360
Speaker 9: to patch it to protect the you know, millions of

1485
01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:31,120
Speaker 9: high risk users that you signal, or to the type

1486
01:22:31,120 --> 01:22:33,840
Speaker 9: of people that would go sell this exploit to some

1487
01:22:34,200 --> 01:22:36,320
Speaker 9: horrible company that would use it, you know, sell it

1488
01:22:36,360 --> 01:22:39,680
Speaker 9: to Saudi Arabia or something and use it to kill activists.

1489
01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:42,040
Speaker 13: Right, Like there is and there's no in between.

1490
01:22:42,080 --> 01:22:45,760
Speaker 9: There's nobody that is going to quietly leak this for

1491
01:22:45,960 --> 01:22:48,160
Speaker 9: you know, just for fun with vague details.

1492
01:22:48,240 --> 01:22:48,400
Speaker 11: Right.

1493
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:51,919
Speaker 9: So, so this this message set up red flags immediately,

1494
01:22:51,960 --> 01:22:56,719
Speaker 9: and like it's because I really do not like ling previews.

1495
01:22:56,760 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 9: And in our paper we discussed some of the issues

1496
01:22:59,439 --> 01:23:02,240
Speaker 9: that we have with link previews. You know, we think

1497
01:23:02,280 --> 01:23:05,759
Speaker 9: that they can they can leak some information about your

1498
01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:09,760
Speaker 9: chats to the owner of the website. Right, we think

1499
01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:12,120
Speaker 9: it's a kind of a large attack service. It's not

1500
01:23:12,240 --> 01:23:13,160
Speaker 9: super necessary.

1501
01:23:13,560 --> 01:23:17,080
Speaker 12: Would you mind explaining to actually the audience to like

1502
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:21,280
Speaker 12: a little bit about what what we found when looking

1503
01:23:21,320 --> 01:23:22,320
Speaker 12: at link previews.

1504
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:26,320
Speaker 9: Yeah. So, the way that link previews work is when

1505
01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:29,160
Speaker 9: you the way that they work on Signal and on

1506
01:23:29,200 --> 01:23:32,920
Speaker 9: WhatsApp is that when you send a link to somebody,

1507
01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:37,840
Speaker 9: the Signal app or WhatsApp goes and like fetches the

1508
01:23:37,880 --> 01:23:39,960
Speaker 9: web page that that you know for that link, right,

1509
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:42,439
Speaker 9: It goes and downloads, you know, downloads the content of

1510
01:23:42,479 --> 01:23:46,519
Speaker 9: that link and gets a There are some there's some

1511
01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:50,519
Speaker 9: special HTML tags that describe, you know, sort of what

1512
01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:52,760
Speaker 9: the page is about, what the title of the page is.

1513
01:23:52,680 --> 01:23:54,080
Speaker 13: And like an image for the page.

1514
01:23:54,320 --> 01:23:56,200
Speaker 9: And it gets those tags and it puts them all

1515
01:23:56,200 --> 01:23:58,800
Speaker 9: together in this little package and then sends that all

1516
01:23:58,840 --> 01:24:01,840
Speaker 9: as part of the signalsage. So when you put a

1517
01:24:01,880 --> 01:24:03,960
Speaker 9: link in Signal, your phone actually goes out and gets

1518
01:24:04,000 --> 01:24:05,960
Speaker 9: that web page, and it gets that web page with

1519
01:24:06,160 --> 01:24:11,680
Speaker 9: a what's called the user agent, which is like a

1520
01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:15,280
Speaker 9: piece of text that's attached to the request that uniquely

1521
01:24:15,439 --> 01:24:19,639
Speaker 9: that that identifies it as being a request from Signal

1522
01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:23,000
Speaker 9: and from like from Signal and from your IP address. Right,

1523
01:24:23,479 --> 01:24:25,600
Speaker 9: So when you put a link in the owner of

1524
01:24:25,640 --> 01:24:28,160
Speaker 9: that website, whoever has the logs for that website, can

1525
01:24:28,200 --> 01:24:32,200
Speaker 9: know that somebody at your IP address is using Signal

1526
01:24:32,240 --> 01:24:33,759
Speaker 9: and sending this link over signal.

1527
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:38,280
Speaker 13: What we're what our concern is is that if that link.

1528
01:24:38,160 --> 01:24:44,000
Speaker 9: Is unique, then anybody else who visits that link can

1529
01:24:44,040 --> 01:24:48,240
Speaker 9: be inferred to be somebody that you are talking with

1530
01:24:48,320 --> 01:24:52,560
Speaker 9: over signal, right, and so like this can be this

1531
01:24:53,000 --> 01:24:56,720
Speaker 9: can be a good an interesting a source of intelligence

1532
01:24:57,120 --> 01:25:01,759
Speaker 9: for website owners, especially for big websites that can easily

1533
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:05,240
Speaker 9: generate unique links with like tracking parameters at the end

1534
01:25:05,280 --> 01:25:06,240
Speaker 9: of them, right, Like when you.

1535
01:25:06,160 --> 01:25:07,919
Speaker 13: Share a.

1536
01:25:08,800 --> 01:25:11,439
Speaker 9: Instagram post, and like at the end it's like question

1537
01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:14,040
Speaker 9: mark I G, S H I D equals you know,

1538
01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:16,720
Speaker 9: a long string of numbers and letters, right, or a

1539
01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:19,639
Speaker 9: Twitter post where you know T equals a long string

1540
01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:20,400
Speaker 9: of letters and numbers.

1541
01:25:20,479 --> 01:25:20,599
Speaker 1: Right.

1542
01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:23,080
Speaker 13: That makes a unique link, and then anybody who.

1543
01:25:22,920 --> 01:25:26,240
Speaker 9: Visits that same link can be determined to be somebody

1544
01:25:26,240 --> 01:25:31,400
Speaker 9: that you're speaking with over signal. So and also WhatsApp

1545
01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:34,840
Speaker 9: and so so for that reason.

1546
01:25:34,880 --> 01:25:39,760
Speaker 8: We we we think that Signal and WhatsApp should turn

1547
01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:43,640
Speaker 8: link previews off by by default because we think that

1548
01:25:43,640 --> 01:25:44,879
Speaker 8: that's an unncessary information.

1549
01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:50,360
Speaker 9: Link Signal and WhatsApps pushback on that is that link

1550
01:25:50,439 --> 01:25:56,040
Speaker 9: previews are a core feature that people demand, and if

1551
01:25:56,080 --> 01:25:58,879
Speaker 9: they if they were to turn off link previews by default,

1552
01:25:59,400 --> 01:26:02,240
Speaker 9: there were the people would leave the platform for less

1553
01:26:02,240 --> 01:26:05,320
Speaker 9: secure platforms like Telegram.

1554
01:26:05,760 --> 01:26:07,439
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, I don't want to tell them

1555
01:26:07,439 --> 01:26:09,760
Speaker 2: their business, because I'm sure they have data on this,

1556
01:26:09,880 --> 01:26:15,680
Speaker 2: but I've never thought about link previews as being a

1557
01:26:15,760 --> 01:26:17,240
Speaker 2: thing that I needed.

1558
01:26:18,360 --> 01:26:20,920
Speaker 12: It's like, yeah, I think it's I think it's one

1559
01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:24,000
Speaker 12: of those things. And you know, we haven't necessarily done

1560
01:26:24,280 --> 01:26:29,600
Speaker 12: like extensive general design research in this right, Like we

1561
01:26:29,640 --> 01:26:33,040
Speaker 12: haven't surveyed like three thousand people in the US. We

1562
01:26:33,080 --> 01:26:36,559
Speaker 12: have had like a Pew Research survey across countries and

1563
01:26:36,640 --> 01:26:38,320
Speaker 12: be like, what are your thoughts on link previews?

1564
01:26:39,200 --> 01:26:40,360
Speaker 6: But I would.

1565
01:26:40,040 --> 01:26:43,840
Speaker 12: Probably argue because it is it is included in so

1566
01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:47,360
Speaker 12: much of modern messaging apps that we now assume it's

1567
01:26:47,439 --> 01:26:50,679
Speaker 12: like a core feature. One thing I will give Signal

1568
01:26:50,800 --> 01:26:53,439
Speaker 12: that I think is amazing that other apps don't do,

1569
01:26:53,560 --> 01:26:56,080
Speaker 12: and this is true of WhatsApp is pretty much every

1570
01:26:56,120 --> 01:26:59,720
Speaker 12: feature except for encryption you can there's something you can

1571
01:26:59,800 --> 01:27:01,040
Speaker 12: talk or turn off.

1572
01:27:01,200 --> 01:27:05,920
Speaker 6: Right, So, like link preview already was available for people.

1573
01:27:05,800 --> 01:27:09,720
Speaker 12: To turn off on signal, WhatsApp does not allow that,

1574
01:27:10,200 --> 01:27:14,280
Speaker 12: and it seems like they're making no moves to allow

1575
01:27:15,160 --> 01:27:18,120
Speaker 12: that future to be optional to turn on or off.

1576
01:27:18,439 --> 01:27:20,080
Speaker 6: But that is I will say, one of the things that's.

1577
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:23,639
Speaker 12: Really lovely about Signal that is so different from modern

1578
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:27,720
Speaker 12: design and modern like big tech platforms and just platforms

1579
01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:30,519
Speaker 12: in general, is that those a lot of features are optional,

1580
01:27:30,560 --> 01:27:33,880
Speaker 12: whereas you know, WhatsApp in meta's sort of stance on

1581
01:27:33,920 --> 01:27:36,400
Speaker 12: design is that a lot of things are not optional,

1582
01:27:36,439 --> 01:27:38,880
Speaker 12: that those are things users would want. Why would we

1583
01:27:38,920 --> 01:27:43,720
Speaker 12: make foundational elements like link previews optional? And you're just

1584
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:47,439
Speaker 12: like starting like gesturing wildly, but like you know, it's like, well,

1585
01:27:47,720 --> 01:27:49,679
Speaker 12: you don't know what people want, And I mean, what's

1586
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:52,000
Speaker 12: the harm in turning off some of some of these things, right?

1587
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:55,759
Speaker 12: You know, like maybe maybe people don't want to receive gifts.

1588
01:27:55,840 --> 01:27:57,799
Speaker 12: I don't know, maybe they don't want to receive stickers.

1589
01:27:57,800 --> 01:28:00,479
Speaker 12: Why don't you like let them have that option. What's

1590
01:28:00,479 --> 01:28:01,439
Speaker 12: the harm that could happen?

1591
01:28:01,640 --> 01:28:01,920
Speaker 9: Yeah?

1592
01:28:02,160 --> 01:28:03,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree more.

1593
01:28:04,000 --> 01:28:05,760
Speaker 13: Yeah, two things I want to say on that.

1594
01:28:06,160 --> 01:28:08,879
Speaker 9: One is one is that at first we should acknowledge

1595
01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:11,120
Speaker 9: that this it turns out that there was no zero.

1596
01:28:10,920 --> 01:28:13,040
Speaker 13: Day, there was no vulnerability.

1597
01:28:12,720 --> 01:28:17,559
Speaker 9: Yeah, this was absolutely just something that that spread virally

1598
01:28:17,640 --> 01:28:19,920
Speaker 9: out of nowhere. I'd be really interested to find out

1599
01:28:19,960 --> 01:28:22,920
Speaker 9: what the origin of this copy past I was, but

1600
01:28:23,000 --> 01:28:24,559
Speaker 9: I haven't. I haven't been able to.

1601
01:28:24,640 --> 01:28:27,640
Speaker 12: But it's I'm curious about that as well, because I

1602
01:28:27,680 --> 01:28:29,479
Speaker 12: was in another group threw that was like, we really

1603
01:28:29,479 --> 01:28:31,400
Speaker 12: need outside auditors to look at these.

1604
01:28:31,240 --> 01:28:33,320
Speaker 6: And I was like, we have a whole report that

1605
01:28:33,400 --> 01:28:35,400
Speaker 6: we wrote that didn't look at this.

1606
01:28:36,360 --> 01:28:40,280
Speaker 2: Speaking of outside auditors, I gotta pause you guys just

1607
01:28:40,280 --> 01:28:43,240
Speaker 2: a second because it is time for an ad break,

1608
01:28:43,840 --> 01:28:48,040
Speaker 2: So please spend your money and then come back to

1609
01:28:48,120 --> 01:28:53,200
Speaker 2: learn more. Ah and we're back. Okay, sorry about that, Cooper, Carolyn.

1610
01:28:53,800 --> 01:28:56,160
Speaker 2: You may continue as you were.

1611
01:28:56,560 --> 01:28:58,599
Speaker 13: The other thing I was, I was going to say

1612
01:28:59,200 --> 01:29:03,639
Speaker 13: that the idea that anybody would leave WhatsApp because they

1613
01:29:03,680 --> 01:29:07,680
Speaker 13: stopped having link previews is completely preposterous to me.

1614
01:29:07,840 --> 01:29:14,120
Speaker 14: Like Clownish has over two billion users, they are the

1615
01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:19,720
Speaker 14: you know, in a position to set the standard for

1616
01:29:19,800 --> 01:29:24,440
Speaker 14: what people expect from a messaging app.

1617
01:29:24,280 --> 01:29:27,519
Speaker 9: And so like they could do things like turn on

1618
01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:31,439
Speaker 9: disappearing messages by default and change that culture. They could

1619
01:29:31,479 --> 01:29:33,640
Speaker 9: do things like turn off link previews by default and

1620
01:29:33,720 --> 01:29:36,600
Speaker 9: change that culture. Like, they could do these things, and

1621
01:29:36,920 --> 01:29:40,599
Speaker 9: you know they would you know, they would not lose

1622
01:29:41,479 --> 01:29:44,400
Speaker 9: enough users to even.

1623
01:29:44,240 --> 01:29:45,280
Speaker 13: Notice or care about.

1624
01:29:45,439 --> 01:29:45,559
Speaker 10: Right.

1625
01:29:45,640 --> 01:29:45,840
Speaker 13: Yeah.

1626
01:29:46,040 --> 01:29:48,360
Speaker 9: They are the only people in the position in the world,

1627
01:29:48,360 --> 01:29:51,600
Speaker 9: in the position to decide what the culture should be.

1628
01:29:51,640 --> 01:29:53,720
Speaker 9: And this is what they've decided the culture should be.

1629
01:29:54,400 --> 01:29:54,799
Speaker 6: Totally.

1630
01:29:55,200 --> 01:29:57,160
Speaker 12: I hate to break it to you, but if WhatsApp

1631
01:29:57,439 --> 01:30:00,240
Speaker 12: just got rid of link previews, I'm just throwing whole

1632
01:30:00,280 --> 01:30:00,960
Speaker 12: phone into.

1633
01:30:00,800 --> 01:30:03,240
Speaker 6: The garbage garbage can, getting rid of it.

1634
01:30:03,160 --> 01:30:05,320
Speaker 2: Just tossing it back to a landline.

1635
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:08,040
Speaker 12: Yeah, I'm just gonna eat it into a river. I

1636
01:30:08,040 --> 01:30:10,559
Speaker 12: feel like I don't need this anymore. Actually, I'm going.

1637
01:30:10,439 --> 01:30:12,720
Speaker 6: Back to carrier pigeons. That's how far back I'm going

1638
01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:13,040
Speaker 6: to go.

1639
01:30:13,439 --> 01:30:15,360
Speaker 2: I mean that that does kind of lead into the

1640
01:30:15,400 --> 01:30:17,599
Speaker 2: next thing I wanted to talk about, which is sort

1641
01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:22,880
Speaker 2: of the other wing from security folklore, which is security nihilism.

1642
01:30:23,520 --> 01:30:26,320
Speaker 2: And yeah, this is kind of you introduce this when

1643
01:30:26,320 --> 01:30:29,519
Speaker 2: talking about sort of if you do try to engage

1644
01:30:29,640 --> 01:30:31,880
Speaker 2: somewhat with the technology, or if you wind up just

1645
01:30:31,960 --> 01:30:33,880
Speaker 2: kind of in the position I think most lay people are,

1646
01:30:33,960 --> 01:30:36,360
Speaker 2: where you know, maybe you have some friends who know more,

1647
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:38,320
Speaker 2: or maybe you have some friends who think they know more,

1648
01:30:38,360 --> 01:30:40,920
Speaker 2: and you get all these conflicting things about like this

1649
01:30:41,040 --> 01:30:43,280
Speaker 2: is safe, No, it's not. You can't trust signal. The

1650
01:30:43,280 --> 01:30:45,439
Speaker 2: FEDS could be running signal all this kind of stuff,

1651
01:30:46,000 --> 01:30:48,679
Speaker 2: and to be fair, the FEDS have run security based

1652
01:30:48,720 --> 01:30:51,240
Speaker 2: services before. It's not like I don't believe that's happening

1653
01:30:51,280 --> 01:30:54,440
Speaker 2: with signal, but it's not like I understand where paranoia

1654
01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:58,400
Speaker 2: like that can can enter into people's calculus, especially if

1655
01:30:58,400 --> 01:31:02,680
Speaker 2: you're not tech knowledgeable, and that can lead to this

1656
01:31:02,760 --> 01:31:06,080
Speaker 2: sort of state of security nihilism where you're just like,

1657
01:31:06,520 --> 01:31:08,840
Speaker 2: you can't communicate it all online. There's no way to

1658
01:31:08,920 --> 01:31:12,320
Speaker 2: do it securely, and obviously there's no perfect right. You

1659
01:31:12,360 --> 01:31:14,160
Speaker 2: never have it, but you don't have one hundred percent

1660
01:31:14,240 --> 01:31:18,880
Speaker 2: with like talking in person to somebody right There are

1661
01:31:18,920 --> 01:31:22,479
Speaker 2: individuals in prison right now who you know, somebody they

1662
01:31:22,520 --> 01:31:25,360
Speaker 2: loved and trusted rat it on them. There's no one

1663
01:31:25,439 --> 01:31:29,520
Speaker 2: hundred percents in this world. But that doesn't mean nihilism

1664
01:31:29,600 --> 01:31:32,400
Speaker 2: is the right response to like trying to figure out

1665
01:31:32,520 --> 01:31:36,879
Speaker 2: how to set up your communications standards with people right totally.

1666
01:31:36,960 --> 01:31:39,439
Speaker 12: I mean, I think the approach we take in because

1667
01:31:39,760 --> 01:31:43,800
Speaker 12: throughout this report, we were also teaching workshops to reproductive

1668
01:31:43,920 --> 01:31:47,799
Speaker 12: justice activists across the US and states where abortion is banned.

1669
01:31:48,000 --> 01:31:51,240
Speaker 12: I'm from Louisiana, I live half the year there, the

1670
01:31:51,320 --> 01:31:55,800
Speaker 12: abortion is banned there, And we were also working with

1671
01:31:55,880 --> 01:31:58,320
Speaker 12: journalists in India. So a big big thing for us

1672
01:31:58,400 --> 01:32:02,000
Speaker 12: was also teaching threat modeling and different kinds of what

1673
01:32:02,080 --> 01:32:05,520
Speaker 12: Matt Mitchell, a security trader and expert, calls digital hygiene.

1674
01:32:06,000 --> 01:32:09,000
Speaker 12: And so a lot of this was recognizing that there

1675
01:32:09,080 --> 01:32:12,120
Speaker 12: was certain practices we were picking up on, particularly with

1676
01:32:12,240 --> 01:32:13,760
Speaker 12: folks we were working with. So like a lot of

1677
01:32:13,840 --> 01:32:17,559
Speaker 12: reproductive justice activists we were working with are new to security,

1678
01:32:17,560 --> 01:32:19,840
Speaker 12: they're new to technology, they don't have a background in tech,

1679
01:32:19,960 --> 01:32:24,320
Speaker 12: and generally, you know, the American South, American Deep South

1680
01:32:24,400 --> 01:32:28,080
Speaker 12: is super overlooked in terms of tech policy, in terms

1681
01:32:28,080 --> 01:32:31,519
Speaker 12: of just I think a general focus when people are

1682
01:32:31,520 --> 01:32:35,240
Speaker 12: talking about tech or tech literacy or tech activism, and

1683
01:32:35,520 --> 01:32:38,920
Speaker 12: that is like leaving really massive gaps and knowledge for people.

1684
01:32:39,680 --> 01:32:42,240
Speaker 12: And so you know, when we were working on this,

1685
01:32:42,479 --> 01:32:46,360
Speaker 12: security folklore and security nihilism were both actually very almost

1686
01:32:46,360 --> 01:32:47,880
Speaker 12: like I won't say like a pendulum, but they were

1687
01:32:47,960 --> 01:32:50,920
Speaker 12: very connected. And so some of that was people hearing

1688
01:32:50,960 --> 01:32:53,320
Speaker 12: things like oh, I should put my phone in a

1689
01:32:53,320 --> 01:32:56,400
Speaker 12: microwave when I'm having a very sensitive conversation, right, And

1690
01:32:56,439 --> 01:32:59,040
Speaker 12: so that's where some of that security folklore is coming in.

1691
01:32:59,520 --> 01:33:02,920
Speaker 12: It is something that is technically safe, but it's like

1692
01:33:03,000 --> 01:33:05,360
Speaker 12: not the thing you necessarily like totally need to do

1693
01:33:05,439 --> 01:33:08,280
Speaker 12: in that moment. And with security nihilism what it kind

1694
01:33:08,280 --> 01:33:09,960
Speaker 12: of came down to, And this is stuff we've seen

1695
01:33:10,000 --> 01:33:14,600
Speaker 12: with other groups and other circumstances. A great example are

1696
01:33:14,720 --> 01:33:17,880
Speaker 12: are you know Palestinine activists and journalists Let's say, who

1697
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:21,080
Speaker 12: are you know facing the threat of all different kinds

1698
01:33:21,080 --> 01:33:24,200
Speaker 12: of governmental censorship and surveillance of sort of saying like

1699
01:33:24,200 --> 01:33:26,679
Speaker 12: when there's this large threat sort of hanging on us,

1700
01:33:27,200 --> 01:33:30,559
Speaker 12: and there's also physical surveillance. And this is true for

1701
01:33:30,600 --> 01:33:33,240
Speaker 12: a lot of journalists in other countries like India as well,

1702
01:33:33,360 --> 01:33:38,439
Speaker 12: for example, you know, like should everything go through signal

1703
01:33:38,479 --> 01:33:39,400
Speaker 12: or does it really matter?

1704
01:33:39,560 --> 01:33:40,559
Speaker 6: Like does it really matter?

1705
01:33:40,600 --> 01:33:43,200
Speaker 12: And this is also something again we saw with some

1706
01:33:43,200 --> 01:33:45,120
Speaker 12: some reproductive justice activists as well.

1707
01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:47,599
Speaker 6: Where it's like if everything is being monitored, what's safe?

1708
01:33:47,800 --> 01:33:49,400
Speaker 6: Like can I send stuff?

1709
01:33:49,800 --> 01:33:49,880
Speaker 5: Like?

1710
01:33:50,040 --> 01:33:51,200
Speaker 6: Can I even use Google?

1711
01:33:51,600 --> 01:33:55,599
Speaker 12: And part of this was, you know, by teaching privacy

1712
01:33:55,600 --> 01:33:58,800
Speaker 12: and security workshops, by teaching things like threat modeling, which

1713
01:33:58,840 --> 01:33:59,599
Speaker 12: is a.

1714
01:33:59,479 --> 01:34:02,320
Speaker 6: Framework just assessing are what are threats?

1715
01:34:02,720 --> 01:34:02,840
Speaker 5: Like?

1716
01:34:03,120 --> 01:34:05,439
Speaker 12: Are what are all the potential threats you could face

1717
01:34:05,439 --> 01:34:07,880
Speaker 12: and kind of mapping them from like the most minor

1718
01:34:08,120 --> 01:34:10,400
Speaker 12: to like the most major and what you can do

1719
01:34:10,520 --> 01:34:13,559
Speaker 12: about that. That's a way to try to combat security nihilism.

1720
01:34:13,640 --> 01:34:15,320
Speaker 12: But I think an approach Cooper and I are also

1721
01:34:15,400 --> 01:34:18,040
Speaker 12: really fond of is thinking of this like safer sex.

1722
01:34:18,560 --> 01:34:20,599
Speaker 12: There's all different kinds of things you can do that

1723
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:24,280
Speaker 12: our mitigations are actually incredibly helpful, and we can't look

1724
01:34:24,320 --> 01:34:27,160
Speaker 12: at it as a binary of safe or not safe.

1725
01:34:27,200 --> 01:34:31,960
Speaker 12: It's actually like much more of a gradient. But you know,

1726
01:34:32,280 --> 01:34:34,920
Speaker 12: the focalore and the nihilism, I think come from a

1727
01:34:35,000 --> 01:34:39,000
Speaker 12: very similar place, which is we're asking people, like society

1728
01:34:39,080 --> 01:34:41,120
Speaker 12: is kind of asking or demanding that people be experts

1729
01:34:41,160 --> 01:34:44,799
Speaker 12: and something that's really hard. I am like a fairly

1730
01:34:44,880 --> 01:34:47,479
Speaker 12: technical person and even there are some things that I

1731
01:34:47,680 --> 01:34:49,880
Speaker 12: find hard to serve wrap my head around. And I've

1732
01:34:49,880 --> 01:34:52,759
Speaker 12: been working in privacy and security for like quite a while.

1733
01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:56,439
Speaker 6: And I think, you know, it's.

1734
01:34:56,240 --> 01:34:58,120
Speaker 12: Also really hard when you think about these apps as

1735
01:34:58,160 --> 01:35:00,479
Speaker 12: like a brand new person. It's like one of the

1736
01:35:00,479 --> 01:35:02,160
Speaker 12: things that popped up a lot in our research is

1737
01:35:02,240 --> 01:35:04,360
Speaker 12: like why should we trust signal? And that's actually a

1738
01:35:04,360 --> 01:35:07,280
Speaker 12: great question, Like what about Signal in its interface and

1739
01:35:07,320 --> 01:35:11,000
Speaker 12: its design would cause you to trust it? Like some

1740
01:35:11,040 --> 01:35:13,160
Speaker 12: people were like it's a nonprofit. That's great, but I

1741
01:35:13,160 --> 01:35:14,880
Speaker 12: don't know what that means. I'm like, that's actually a

1742
01:35:14,880 --> 01:35:16,760
Speaker 12: fantastic question, Like what does that mean?

1743
01:35:17,000 --> 01:35:17,160
Speaker 8: Right?

1744
01:35:17,240 --> 01:35:20,160
Speaker 12: Like why should you trust this? You've heard through the

1745
01:35:20,160 --> 01:35:22,639
Speaker 12: grapevine that you should. And I think these are kind

1746
01:35:22,640 --> 01:35:24,360
Speaker 12: of all the things that people are dealing with because

1747
01:35:24,360 --> 01:35:26,120
Speaker 12: if you sort of take a step back and just

1748
01:35:26,160 --> 01:35:29,080
Speaker 12: look at software or any different kinds of software generally,

1749
01:35:29,479 --> 01:35:31,720
Speaker 12: why should you trust that it's safe and secure when

1750
01:35:31,760 --> 01:35:34,600
Speaker 12: there have been so many different kinds of leaks or

1751
01:35:34,640 --> 01:35:35,920
Speaker 12: breaches or things breaking.

1752
01:35:36,080 --> 01:35:36,320
Speaker 8: Right?

1753
01:35:36,760 --> 01:35:40,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, Like so these.

1754
01:35:40,000 --> 01:35:42,639
Speaker 12: Are I think really really closely tied. But I think

1755
01:35:42,680 --> 01:35:44,960
Speaker 12: a big thing for us is trying to combat that

1756
01:35:45,080 --> 01:35:48,360
Speaker 12: security nihilism, like when whenever we can like there is

1757
01:35:48,439 --> 01:35:51,160
Speaker 12: things you can do, I don't want to say like

1758
01:35:51,240 --> 01:35:53,240
Speaker 12: no matter how great the threat. But I believe like,

1759
01:35:53,280 --> 01:35:55,160
Speaker 12: no matter how great the threat, there is stuff.

1760
01:35:55,200 --> 01:35:56,240
Speaker 6: There is stuff you can do.

1761
01:35:56,920 --> 01:35:58,800
Speaker 9: No matter how great the threat is, there's stuff that

1762
01:35:58,840 --> 01:36:02,040
Speaker 9: you can do to make it more difficult and more

1763
01:36:02,080 --> 01:36:04,840
Speaker 9: expensive for that person to attack you. Right, Like we

1764
01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:07,600
Speaker 9: all lock the doors to our house, or you know,

1765
01:36:07,680 --> 01:36:08,559
Speaker 9: for the most part.

1766
01:36:09,760 --> 01:36:12,160
Speaker 13: Or you know, we all we all do things.

1767
01:36:11,840 --> 01:36:15,479
Speaker 9: To to protect ourselves like that that aren't fool proof, right.

1768
01:36:15,520 --> 01:36:17,920
Speaker 9: Somebody can always break a window to get into your house, right,

1769
01:36:18,000 --> 01:36:19,760
Speaker 9: So we can find other ways to get into your house.

1770
01:36:20,080 --> 01:36:23,080
Speaker 9: But locking the door makes it so that somebody has

1771
01:36:23,120 --> 01:36:25,280
Speaker 9: to do the noisy thing of breaking a window.

1772
01:36:25,720 --> 01:36:25,960
Speaker 13: Right.

1773
01:36:26,920 --> 01:36:28,600
Speaker 9: It makes it so that, you know, somebody has to

1774
01:36:28,640 --> 01:36:31,240
Speaker 9: spend more time and effort and more risk of getting

1775
01:36:31,280 --> 01:36:32,920
Speaker 9: caught in getting.

1776
01:36:32,600 --> 01:36:36,080
Speaker 13: Into your house. Right. And that's and that's like we layer.

1777
01:36:36,240 --> 01:36:40,240
Speaker 9: When you layer these protections, right, the idea, you know

1778
01:36:40,400 --> 01:36:44,599
Speaker 9: is that you're you're you're making it harder, You're making

1779
01:36:44,640 --> 01:36:48,360
Speaker 9: there be more friction right to piercing your security.

1780
01:36:48,920 --> 01:36:51,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's that's a really good point, and

1781
01:36:51,439 --> 01:36:53,920
Speaker 2: that the concept of friction. You know, this is something

1782
01:36:54,000 --> 01:36:56,760
Speaker 2: I've talked about, not that these are exactly the same things,

1783
01:36:56,760 --> 01:36:59,439
Speaker 2: but in the although there's not not wildly different when

1784
01:36:59,439 --> 01:37:03,799
Speaker 2: it comes to like how insurgents win insurgencies, right, It's

1785
01:37:03,920 --> 01:37:07,600
Speaker 2: not by carrying out these sort of like great battlefield

1786
01:37:07,680 --> 01:37:11,880
Speaker 2: victories that sweep the enemy from the field. It's by friction, right,

1787
01:37:12,160 --> 01:37:16,280
Speaker 2: which wears down both the culture and the kind of

1788
01:37:16,400 --> 01:37:21,200
Speaker 2: readiness of the opponent until they simply bounce, which is

1789
01:37:21,280 --> 01:37:23,800
Speaker 2: a pretty durable and effective strategy. You can keep it up.

1790
01:37:23,840 --> 01:37:29,839
Speaker 2: It's this matter of like there's no like sweeping sudden

1791
01:37:29,960 --> 01:37:33,840
Speaker 2: like ninety minute three act win here. It's more a

1792
01:37:33,880 --> 01:37:37,360
Speaker 2: matter of the more difficult, the more expensive you make it,

1793
01:37:37,600 --> 01:37:40,320
Speaker 2: the more you hold on to and the more all

1794
01:37:40,400 --> 01:37:42,280
Speaker 2: of us hold on to. Right. That's the other benefit

1795
01:37:42,360 --> 01:37:44,360
Speaker 2: is like, even if you're not even if you are

1796
01:37:44,520 --> 01:37:47,120
Speaker 2: the most law abiding person in the world like myself,

1797
01:37:48,720 --> 01:37:52,280
Speaker 2: having these security measures in place means that you're kind

1798
01:37:52,320 --> 01:37:57,040
Speaker 2: of contributing to the overall immune system of a kind

1799
01:37:57,120 --> 01:38:00,400
Speaker 2: of community of people who don't want the NSA listening

1800
01:38:00,400 --> 01:38:00,880
Speaker 2: to the ship.

1801
01:38:02,720 --> 01:38:06,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, exactly exactly. And the friction thing is is also

1802
01:38:06,880 --> 01:38:10,960
Speaker 9: exactly what Signal does, right, Like by the threat model

1803
01:38:10,960 --> 01:38:15,200
Speaker 9: for Signal is stopping the NSA or other global adversaries

1804
01:38:15,240 --> 01:38:19,720
Speaker 9: from listening to all communications as they travel over the internet, right,

1805
01:38:19,800 --> 01:38:22,519
Speaker 9: And that's when you can when you can do that,

1806
01:38:22,840 --> 01:38:24,959
Speaker 9: like when you can when you can listen to everybody's

1807
01:38:25,000 --> 01:38:27,920
Speaker 9: conversations as they travel over the internet, it's really cheap

1808
01:38:27,960 --> 01:38:32,000
Speaker 9: to spy on anybody, right when you're encrypting that communication. Uh,

1809
01:38:32,280 --> 01:38:35,360
Speaker 9: then the NSA or whatever other global adversary has to

1810
01:38:35,439 --> 01:38:39,240
Speaker 9: go actually hack your phone, right, they have to. They

1811
01:38:39,280 --> 01:38:43,040
Speaker 9: have to target you specifically, they have to burn resources

1812
01:38:43,160 --> 01:38:48,040
Speaker 9: and you know, burn weapons, right, zero days to get

1813
01:38:48,080 --> 01:38:50,200
Speaker 9: access to your phone. And that's a lot more costly,

1814
01:38:50,680 --> 01:38:53,320
Speaker 9: it's a lot more noisy, it's a much higher.

1815
01:38:53,200 --> 01:38:54,280
Speaker 13: Risk of them getting caught.

1816
01:38:54,560 --> 01:38:58,280
Speaker 9: So it's introduced to huge friction, uh in that in

1817
01:38:59,080 --> 01:39:05,519
Speaker 9: that area. Go ahead, okay, go ahead, go ahead, I say,

1818
01:39:05,560 --> 01:39:07,800
Speaker 9: And I think you're asymmetic. The sort of comparison to

1819
01:39:07,840 --> 01:39:10,559
Speaker 9: asymmetric warfare is exactly spot on, because none of us

1820
01:39:10,560 --> 01:39:12,720
Speaker 9: are ever going to have the money that that the

1821
01:39:12,840 --> 01:39:15,000
Speaker 9: NSA or MASADE has. None of us are ever going

1822
01:39:15,040 --> 01:39:18,559
Speaker 9: to have the the total technical acumen that the NSA

1823
01:39:18,680 --> 01:39:19,720
Speaker 9: or MASADA has.

1824
01:39:19,800 --> 01:39:19,960
Speaker 13: Right.

1825
01:39:20,000 --> 01:39:22,439
Speaker 9: But like those that you know, so we have to

1826
01:39:22,520 --> 01:39:24,599
Speaker 9: kind of fight a you know, in terms of caryption

1827
01:39:25,360 --> 01:39:27,960
Speaker 9: in terms of encryption, a guerrilla war, right, and we

1828
01:39:28,080 --> 01:39:32,080
Speaker 9: have to make things so expensive and so annoying for

1829
01:39:32,120 --> 01:39:32,759
Speaker 9: them that it's.

1830
01:39:32,640 --> 01:39:35,920
Speaker 6: Not worth it totally. And just to sort of building that.

1831
01:39:35,960 --> 01:39:38,160
Speaker 12: One of the things I love about Signal is while

1832
01:39:38,160 --> 01:39:42,800
Speaker 12: they're creating friction for our adversaries, it's actually so frictionless

1833
01:39:42,840 --> 01:39:45,559
Speaker 12: to use as a user. And I think that's one

1834
01:39:45,600 --> 01:39:48,400
Speaker 12: of the things I find just continually.

1835
01:39:47,920 --> 01:39:50,960
Speaker 6: Impressive about that. I don't want this to turn into like.

1836
01:39:51,000 --> 01:39:55,160
Speaker 12: The like we're all himbos for Signal, except we probably are,

1837
01:39:55,840 --> 01:39:57,880
Speaker 12: but because like that's one of the things as a

1838
01:39:57,920 --> 01:39:59,720
Speaker 12: researcher like Kuber and I stimes have to be like,

1839
01:40:00,120 --> 01:40:02,400
Speaker 12: we're not paid by a Signal at all, Like, but

1840
01:40:02,600 --> 01:40:04,639
Speaker 12: this is in fact, like one of the best things

1841
01:40:04,680 --> 01:40:06,439
Speaker 12: you can use. But again, one of the things I

1842
01:40:06,439 --> 01:40:10,120
Speaker 12: think is amazing is that it is so easy to use,

1843
01:40:11,200 --> 01:40:15,559
Speaker 12: and it really is designed for and I'm using the

1844
01:40:15,640 --> 01:40:20,280
Speaker 12: term usability as a design term, meaning that it is

1845
01:40:20,800 --> 01:40:24,160
Speaker 12: they're thinking about a common user, including those with like

1846
01:40:24,200 --> 01:40:28,160
Speaker 12: lower digital literacy or those that are have never used

1847
01:40:28,320 --> 01:40:31,439
Speaker 12: any kind of any kind of security tool, and so

1848
01:40:31,560 --> 01:40:35,040
Speaker 12: they're hitting a specific threshold of usability for things to

1849
01:40:35,040 --> 01:40:38,280
Speaker 12: be understandable, and again, that's incredibly hard to do well,

1850
01:40:38,400 --> 01:40:40,400
Speaker 12: and they are. They are doing it quite well. Like

1851
01:40:40,439 --> 01:40:42,880
Speaker 12: it's very I would argue it's very easy and sort

1852
01:40:42,920 --> 01:40:46,200
Speaker 12: of seamless for people to make a jump from WhatsApp

1853
01:40:46,400 --> 01:40:49,360
Speaker 12: or if you're on like Google or Android using like

1854
01:40:49,400 --> 01:40:51,479
Speaker 12: Google Messages, sorry Google, if.

1855
01:40:51,360 --> 01:40:54,040
Speaker 6: You're on Android or an iPhone.

1856
01:40:53,720 --> 01:40:57,160
Speaker 12: From like I Messages to Google Messages to signal like

1857
01:40:57,200 --> 01:40:57,799
Speaker 12: it doesn't.

1858
01:40:58,040 --> 01:40:59,040
Speaker 6: It might look slightly different.

1859
01:40:59,080 --> 01:41:00,800
Speaker 12: I might feel a lot more blue, maybe a lot

1860
01:41:00,840 --> 01:41:03,160
Speaker 12: more black, depending up on how yours is constructed. But

1861
01:41:03,200 --> 01:41:05,599
Speaker 12: for the most part, a lot of the features are

1862
01:41:05,680 --> 01:41:07,840
Speaker 12: kind of where you expect them to be, and it's

1863
01:41:07,920 --> 01:41:10,920
Speaker 12: not at all difficult to get it up and running,

1864
01:41:11,000 --> 01:41:13,559
Speaker 12: which is not something against Cooper said earlier we could

1865
01:41:13,560 --> 01:41:15,759
Speaker 12: say about things like PGP.

1866
01:41:16,439 --> 01:41:19,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted to kind of move on to talking

1867
01:41:19,360 --> 01:41:22,160
Speaker 2: about other apps and their security or lack of it,

1868
01:41:22,200 --> 01:41:25,160
Speaker 2: And I think we should start probably by talking about Telegram,

1869
01:41:25,240 --> 01:41:28,040
Speaker 2: because that's probably close to top of the list of

1870
01:41:28,080 --> 01:41:32,920
Speaker 2: things people use for secure communications that is not nearly

1871
01:41:32,960 --> 01:41:37,280
Speaker 2: as secure as they think. So yeah, I wanted to

1872
01:41:37,360 --> 01:41:40,000
Speaker 2: kind of chat with you about like why that is,

1873
01:41:40,080 --> 01:41:42,280
Speaker 2: and I specifically I wanted to talk One of the

1874
01:41:42,280 --> 01:41:46,519
Speaker 2: things that is frustrating about Telegram is they kind of

1875
01:41:46,600 --> 01:41:48,679
Speaker 2: have they have like a secret chat or private chat,

1876
01:41:48,720 --> 01:41:51,559
Speaker 2: like they have a couple of different options that don't

1877
01:41:52,040 --> 01:41:55,880
Speaker 2: necessarily mean what they sound like they mean to most people.

1878
01:41:55,960 --> 01:41:58,960
Speaker 12: Yeah, so that's actually one thing our report found. So

1879
01:41:59,040 --> 01:42:01,800
Speaker 12: private chat and secret chat are in fact.

1880
01:42:01,680 --> 01:42:02,320
Speaker 6: The same thing.

1881
01:42:03,360 --> 01:42:06,679
Speaker 12: They're just called slightly different things in the app, which

1882
01:42:06,800 --> 01:42:09,240
Speaker 12: for for again, for those listening.

1883
01:42:08,880 --> 01:42:11,559
Speaker 6: That are don't have the background in design, that's bad design.

1884
01:42:11,600 --> 01:42:16,040
Speaker 12: That's actually not that's not professional, that's a that is

1885
01:42:16,200 --> 01:42:19,840
Speaker 12: a mistake. There's no reason for a feature to have

1886
01:42:19,880 --> 01:42:23,839
Speaker 12: like two different names inside of inside of your software.

1887
01:42:24,880 --> 01:42:27,680
Speaker 12: And so I don't know if that's an oversight on

1888
01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:32,200
Speaker 12: their part, I'm assuming so, But like those two things

1889
01:42:32,320 --> 01:42:34,960
Speaker 12: correlate to the same feature, and so they should actually

1890
01:42:35,000 --> 01:42:37,840
Speaker 12: be called the same thing. But then even further that

1891
01:42:37,880 --> 01:42:40,840
Speaker 12: being said, what does private mean to a user?

1892
01:42:40,920 --> 01:42:42,080
Speaker 6: What does secret mean?

1893
01:42:43,560 --> 01:42:47,799
Speaker 12: You know, Facebook Messenger they call their encrypted message secure

1894
01:42:48,040 --> 01:42:49,800
Speaker 12: or no, they also call it secret. Sorry, they also

1895
01:42:49,800 --> 01:42:52,000
Speaker 12: call it secret, But like does that mean security? Does

1896
01:42:52,040 --> 01:42:55,640
Speaker 12: that mean encrypted? And so that's like one of the

1897
01:42:56,360 --> 01:42:59,200
Speaker 12: one of the weird things where it's like, you know,

1898
01:42:59,479 --> 01:43:03,200
Speaker 12: I think by using a very sort of like normalize

1899
01:43:03,320 --> 01:43:07,040
Speaker 12: or culturally almost like emotional name like private, it makes

1900
01:43:07,040 --> 01:43:10,439
Speaker 12: something seem like it's actually quite safe, when in fact

1901
01:43:11,200 --> 01:43:11,559
Speaker 12: it's not.

1902
01:43:11,680 --> 01:43:13,479
Speaker 6: And there's a variety of reasons as why, like.

1903
01:43:13,479 --> 01:43:16,880
Speaker 12: Telegram is not not a very secure app that I

1904
01:43:16,880 --> 01:43:19,280
Speaker 12: will let Cooper talk about more.

1905
01:43:19,640 --> 01:43:22,799
Speaker 9: Yeah, I would never advise anybody to have a chat

1906
01:43:23,200 --> 01:43:27,400
Speaker 9: over Telegram if they are concerned about the privacy of that. Yeah,

1907
01:43:27,479 --> 01:43:32,160
Speaker 9: So we were talking about friction and the fact that

1908
01:43:32,600 --> 01:43:36,719
Speaker 9: and encrypted chats are not the default in Telegram creates

1909
01:43:36,720 --> 01:43:41,840
Speaker 9: a friction for users to have an actually secure chat.

1910
01:43:41,920 --> 01:43:44,040
Speaker 13: Right, you have to go remember to turn it.

1911
01:43:44,000 --> 01:43:47,160
Speaker 12: On, and you can only turn it on turn it

1912
01:43:47,200 --> 01:43:51,799
Speaker 12: on individually per message. It's not like an overall feature

1913
01:43:52,000 --> 01:43:54,760
Speaker 12: on Telegram or Facebook Messenger, like you have to go

1914
01:43:54,920 --> 01:44:00,240
Speaker 12: select a specific like the specific conversation per conversation, which

1915
01:44:00,280 --> 01:44:03,040
Speaker 12: is and another thing ourper gets into is how also

1916
01:44:03,360 --> 01:44:06,360
Speaker 12: those chats don't look very different. They look almost identical

1917
01:44:06,680 --> 01:44:11,360
Speaker 12: to a normal chat. So for low vision users or

1918
01:44:11,400 --> 01:44:15,280
Speaker 12: anyone with any kind of like disability, especially a vision

1919
01:44:15,360 --> 01:44:20,080
Speaker 12: related disability, it's almost impossible to It's like nearly impossible

1920
01:44:20,120 --> 01:44:23,720
Speaker 12: to recognize which chat you're using if you're looking at

1921
01:44:23,760 --> 01:44:24,519
Speaker 12: the chat logs.

1922
01:44:25,200 --> 01:44:28,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, outside of that, like if people you know, in

1923
01:44:28,920 --> 01:44:31,200
Speaker 2: terms of like things that may not be options right now,

1924
01:44:31,240 --> 01:44:34,960
Speaker 2: I think basically everyone listening signal is a perfectly viable option.

1925
01:44:35,000 --> 01:44:38,040
Speaker 2: But it's not impossible that, for example, you might wind

1926
01:44:38,160 --> 01:44:40,800
Speaker 2: up in a country where, even if there's not a

1927
01:44:40,800 --> 01:44:44,000
Speaker 2: specific law against it, there is a precedent established that

1928
01:44:44,040 --> 01:44:46,720
Speaker 2: if you have signal on your phone, you know, it

1929
01:44:46,840 --> 01:44:49,759
Speaker 2: can be at least used as a justification for charges

1930
01:44:49,760 --> 01:44:52,320
Speaker 2: that you are planning to use. Like you know, with Atlanta,

1931
01:44:52,400 --> 01:44:55,559
Speaker 2: people are getting charges because they had a lawyer's name

1932
01:44:55,600 --> 01:44:58,599
Speaker 2: written on their arm, right, and so the state saying, well,

1933
01:44:58,600 --> 01:45:01,600
Speaker 2: that's evidence that we're planning to commit a crime. You know,

1934
01:45:01,760 --> 01:45:04,000
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that convictions will go through on that

1935
01:45:04,120 --> 01:45:05,559
Speaker 2: kind of thing, but it may be a reason why

1936
01:45:05,680 --> 01:45:09,120
Speaker 2: signal might not be an option, or say, you know,

1937
01:45:09,240 --> 01:45:11,639
Speaker 2: something comes out about it that makes it seem less secure.

1938
01:45:12,120 --> 01:45:16,479
Speaker 2: What are other good or or acceptable options? And I

1939
01:45:16,520 --> 01:45:18,800
Speaker 2: know when we're talking about this, these are often options

1940
01:45:18,840 --> 01:45:21,439
Speaker 2: that require more input and work from the user in

1941
01:45:21,560 --> 01:45:24,280
Speaker 2: order to maximize their potential security. But I do think

1942
01:45:24,280 --> 01:45:25,720
Speaker 2: it's good to like let people kind of know what

1943
01:45:25,800 --> 01:45:26,559
Speaker 2: else is out there.

1944
01:45:26,960 --> 01:45:31,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, so when signal isn't an option, WhatsApp is actually

1945
01:45:31,160 --> 01:45:35,599
Speaker 9: not a bad option. So WhatsApp it is owned by Meta,

1946
01:45:35,760 --> 01:45:38,559
Speaker 9: which is a you know, which is which is you

1947
01:45:38,560 --> 01:45:43,000
Speaker 9: know not which is not ideal. But WhatsApp actually uses

1948
01:45:43,080 --> 01:45:47,519
Speaker 9: the same encryption protocol as signal. Uh So, like under

1949
01:45:47,520 --> 01:45:49,160
Speaker 9: the hood, the way that the you know, the way

1950
01:45:49,200 --> 01:45:51,120
Speaker 9: that the math works to hide your messages from the

1951
01:45:51,240 --> 01:45:55,960
Speaker 9: NSA is exactly the same, right, and and they've implemented it. Well,

1952
01:45:56,560 --> 01:45:59,880
Speaker 9: you know, there are a few more steps that, you know,

1953
01:46:00,040 --> 01:46:02,080
Speaker 9: few more precautions that you need to take with WhatsApp,

1954
01:46:02,160 --> 01:46:05,240
Speaker 9: like making sure that your chats aren't backed up being

1955
01:46:05,280 --> 01:46:10,519
Speaker 9: the main one. But WhatsApp is certainly good enough, right

1956
01:46:10,600 --> 01:46:14,960
Speaker 9: if you're if you're you know, chat networks aren't using signal,

1957
01:46:14,960 --> 01:46:17,360
Speaker 9: if you're in a country where you can't use signal, right, Like,

1958
01:46:17,520 --> 01:46:22,040
Speaker 9: WhatsApp has two billion users, I'm you know, it's it's

1959
01:46:22,120 --> 01:46:24,400
Speaker 9: you can use WhatsApp almost anywhere in the world. It's

1960
01:46:24,400 --> 01:46:26,760
Speaker 9: and it's ubiquitous enough that it's not going to mark

1961
01:46:26,840 --> 01:46:29,240
Speaker 9: you as you know, somebody with something to hide, right,

1962
01:46:29,800 --> 01:46:31,800
Speaker 9: And like and I don't want to I don't want

1963
01:46:31,840 --> 01:46:36,120
Speaker 9: to discount what's app. Right, getting two billion people to

1964
01:46:36,680 --> 01:46:40,960
Speaker 9: have end to end encrypted messaging by default overnight basically

1965
01:46:41,479 --> 01:46:46,200
Speaker 9: was a major cupe like that that was world changing, right,

1966
01:46:46,439 --> 01:46:51,400
Speaker 9: and like they they really do deserve applause for that obviously,

1967
01:46:51,640 --> 01:46:53,840
Speaker 9: you know, I think partly because of their scale, partly

1968
01:46:53,840 --> 01:46:56,640
Speaker 9: because they're owned by Meta, right, they haven't taken all

1969
01:46:56,680 --> 01:46:59,880
Speaker 9: of these same steps, like they do have more a

1970
01:47:00,400 --> 01:47:05,160
Speaker 9: metadata on their servers then Signal does, right, But if

1971
01:47:05,160 --> 01:47:07,200
Speaker 9: that's your option, that is a fine option.

1972
01:47:08,000 --> 01:47:11,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's really good to know, particularly since

1973
01:47:12,200 --> 01:47:16,080
Speaker 2: options are always more secure than not having any kind

1974
01:47:16,120 --> 01:47:18,400
Speaker 2: of a backup plan totally.

1975
01:47:18,880 --> 01:47:22,120
Speaker 12: And if people are like even slightly nervous about WhatsApp,

1976
01:47:22,320 --> 01:47:25,559
Speaker 12: of great things they do have disappearing messages. The downside

1977
01:47:25,680 --> 01:47:29,120
Speaker 12: is like the fastest disappearing message is only twenty four hours.

1978
01:47:29,120 --> 01:47:33,160
Speaker 12: But that's something that again you still have and that's

1979
01:47:33,400 --> 01:47:35,639
Speaker 12: like that is that is an amazing feature.

1980
01:47:36,400 --> 01:47:39,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that kind of gets into also what kind

1981
01:47:39,800 --> 01:47:43,080
Speaker 2: of stuff you can do in order to maximize the

1982
01:47:43,160 --> 01:47:46,320
Speaker 2: value of features like that, Like, for example, if you're

1983
01:47:46,600 --> 01:47:49,680
Speaker 2: coming back into the country or a country and your

1984
01:47:49,720 --> 01:47:54,519
Speaker 2: phone gets confiscated by customs or whatever, because security services

1985
01:47:54,560 --> 01:47:56,719
Speaker 2: have some sort of eye on you for whatever reason.

1986
01:47:57,120 --> 01:48:02,000
Speaker 2: If you've got you know, thumbprint log in or face

1987
01:48:02,040 --> 01:48:04,040
Speaker 2: log in, they're going to get into that phone right

1988
01:48:04,479 --> 01:48:06,920
Speaker 2: in your twenty four hour delete thing may not have

1989
01:48:06,960 --> 01:48:09,920
Speaker 2: gotten taken care of everything. If you've got like a

1990
01:48:09,960 --> 01:48:14,799
Speaker 2: complicated eight digit password and no biometrics enabled, maybe depending

1991
01:48:14,800 --> 01:48:17,160
Speaker 2: on where you are and whatnot, that'll keep your phone

1992
01:48:17,200 --> 01:48:19,800
Speaker 2: locked long enough for those messages to get deleted, right, Like,

1993
01:48:19,840 --> 01:48:22,479
Speaker 2: it's all about kind of maximizing the chances that something

1994
01:48:22,520 --> 01:48:23,400
Speaker 2: like that helps.

1995
01:48:24,000 --> 01:48:28,320
Speaker 9: Yeah, exactly. We definitely recommend that people turn on disappearing messages.

1996
01:48:29,080 --> 01:48:31,599
Speaker 9: I think that that's just a good sensible default to have.

1997
01:48:33,320 --> 01:48:35,960
Speaker 9: Also definitely recommend that if you're going to be in

1998
01:48:36,040 --> 01:48:38,559
Speaker 9: a situation where you think you're going to be, you know,

1999
01:48:38,560 --> 01:48:40,879
Speaker 9: there's a higher likelihood if you interacted with law enforcement,

2000
01:48:41,120 --> 01:48:43,280
Speaker 9: if you're crossing a border, if you're going to a protest,

2001
01:48:43,720 --> 01:48:47,879
Speaker 9: turn off the biometric unlock on your phone. Certainly, especially

2002
01:48:47,920 --> 01:48:50,800
Speaker 9: in the US, there's the case law isn't settled, but

2003
01:48:50,840 --> 01:48:53,679
Speaker 9: there's a lot of state courts that have decided that

2004
01:48:54,320 --> 01:48:56,479
Speaker 9: police can force you to unlock your phone with your

2005
01:48:56,479 --> 01:49:00,519
Speaker 9: biometrics and that that's totally fine. So, you know, in

2006
01:49:00,560 --> 01:49:02,479
Speaker 9: the in the US context, it's a good idea. In

2007
01:49:02,520 --> 01:49:04,479
Speaker 9: any context, I think it's a good idea if you're

2008
01:49:04,479 --> 01:49:05,920
Speaker 9: at heightened risk to turn off.

2009
01:49:06,439 --> 01:49:09,559
Speaker 12: Total I mean, one thing we're also a big fan

2010
01:49:09,600 --> 01:49:11,840
Speaker 12: of is figuring out too like and this is again

2011
01:49:11,920 --> 01:49:14,559
Speaker 12: where threat modeling is so key, is like, is this

2012
01:49:14,760 --> 01:49:17,639
Speaker 12: a circumstance where you need your phone or Another thing

2013
01:49:17,720 --> 01:49:19,800
Speaker 12: that you know you can always do if you are

2014
01:49:19,880 --> 01:49:23,559
Speaker 12: nervous about traveling across the border, is you can delete

2015
01:49:23,560 --> 01:49:26,639
Speaker 12: signal and reinstall it and everything is gone. You can

2016
01:49:26,960 --> 01:49:30,559
Speaker 12: delete WhatsApp temporarily while you're crossing a border so it's

2017
01:49:30,600 --> 01:49:34,559
Speaker 12: not on your phone. You know, there are things like

2018
01:49:34,600 --> 01:49:37,840
Speaker 12: that you can do if you feel comfortable wiping your phone,

2019
01:49:37,880 --> 01:49:41,800
Speaker 12: that's something also you can do. You know, these are

2020
01:49:41,840 --> 01:49:44,679
Speaker 12: all again, these are these are these are different things,

2021
01:49:44,760 --> 01:49:46,879
Speaker 12: and I think this is one of the things our report.

2022
01:49:47,760 --> 01:49:49,479
Speaker 12: I don't remember how too much we get into a

2023
01:49:49,479 --> 01:49:51,599
Speaker 12: bit something that at least we've been thinking about. Cooper

2024
01:49:51,640 --> 01:49:55,680
Speaker 12: and I run a little lab called Convocation, and one

2025
01:49:55,720 --> 01:49:58,760
Speaker 12: of the things we've been thinking about there is just

2026
01:49:58,920 --> 01:50:01,840
Speaker 12: also how do we install sort of like better, better,

2027
01:50:01,840 --> 01:50:05,000
Speaker 12: holistic practices where we understand that a phone is just

2028
01:50:05,080 --> 01:50:09,400
Speaker 12: one component of our safety, and so like secure messaging,

2029
01:50:09,479 --> 01:50:11,920
Speaker 12: encrypted messaging is one component of that safe safety.

2030
01:50:11,960 --> 01:50:14,960
Speaker 6: So like what are other things we can do? And

2031
01:50:15,000 --> 01:50:15,959
Speaker 6: some of that can.

2032
01:50:15,760 --> 01:50:18,800
Speaker 12: Be you know, wiping your phone of traveling if that

2033
01:50:18,840 --> 01:50:21,000
Speaker 12: makes sense for you or if that's thing that makes

2034
01:50:21,000 --> 01:50:25,479
Speaker 12: you feel safer, or removing certain apps and then you know,

2035
01:50:25,560 --> 01:50:27,679
Speaker 12: reinstalling them, reinstalling them later.

2036
01:50:28,400 --> 01:50:30,959
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, and it and it really is holistic.

2037
01:50:31,040 --> 01:50:31,200
Speaker 5: Right.

2038
01:50:31,280 --> 01:50:33,760
Speaker 9: Like a thing that a thing that people need to

2039
01:50:33,840 --> 01:50:37,120
Speaker 9: keep in mind is that, you know, disappearing messages can't

2040
01:50:37,160 --> 01:50:44,920
Speaker 9: stop an untrustworthy uh, conversation partner, right, Like if if

2041
01:50:45,000 --> 01:50:47,920
Speaker 9: my conversation partner is untrustworthy, they can take screenshots of

2042
01:50:47,960 --> 01:50:51,280
Speaker 9: the messages, right, they can you know, go they can

2043
01:50:51,320 --> 01:50:56,479
Speaker 9: go snitch to law enforcement about what I've told them, right, Uh,

2044
01:50:56,600 --> 01:50:59,600
Speaker 9: Encrypted messaging, disappearing messages, these are not panaspeas.

2045
01:51:00,080 --> 01:51:00,200
Speaker 7: Right.

2046
01:51:00,240 --> 01:51:03,599
Speaker 9: You still have to you still have to keep all

2047
01:51:03,640 --> 01:51:10,040
Speaker 9: of your other aspects of security as well, right, So

2048
01:51:10,160 --> 01:51:13,479
Speaker 9: don't entirely rely on these technologies to save you.

2049
01:51:13,560 --> 01:51:13,680
Speaker 11: Right.

2050
01:51:13,720 --> 01:51:15,720
Speaker 9: You have to also trust the people you're working with,

2051
01:51:15,800 --> 01:51:17,800
Speaker 9: and build these layers of security up.

2052
01:51:18,520 --> 01:51:18,960
Speaker 6: It's true.

2053
01:51:18,960 --> 01:51:20,799
Speaker 12: I mean, Cooper, you could leak all of my secrets

2054
01:51:20,840 --> 01:51:23,120
Speaker 12: right now on this podcast, and you chose them that

2055
01:51:23,160 --> 01:51:24,560
Speaker 12: to what a gentleman.

2056
01:51:24,880 --> 01:51:25,599
Speaker 5: And that is color.

2057
01:51:26,400 --> 01:51:29,280
Speaker 2: That is the other thing right where when it comes

2058
01:51:29,360 --> 01:51:32,600
Speaker 2: to like what is secure? One thing to remember is

2059
01:51:32,640 --> 01:51:35,400
Speaker 2: that signal for all the good things about it, nothing,

2060
01:51:35,600 --> 01:51:38,400
Speaker 2: nothing at all about that app stops the recipient of

2061
01:51:38,439 --> 01:51:41,160
Speaker 2: a message from you from taking a screen grab or

2062
01:51:41,240 --> 01:51:45,439
Speaker 2: just handing their phone over to their friendly local federal agent, right,

2063
01:51:47,080 --> 01:51:49,880
Speaker 2: which is always you know, we don't want to be

2064
01:51:49,920 --> 01:51:52,040
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to be a security nihilist here. I

2065
01:51:52,040 --> 01:51:56,679
Speaker 2: think you know there's no replacing communication over phones in

2066
01:51:56,680 --> 01:52:00,160
Speaker 2: many situations. But if you are, a full example, going

2067
01:52:00,280 --> 01:52:06,200
Speaker 2: to be transferring a bunch of Plan B pills in

2068
01:52:06,240 --> 01:52:10,320
Speaker 2: an area where that is prosecutable, that probably shouldn't go

2069
01:52:10,400 --> 01:52:11,599
Speaker 2: on your phone in that language.

2070
01:52:11,680 --> 01:52:11,920
Speaker 13: Right.

2071
01:52:12,000 --> 01:52:14,719
Speaker 2: Perhaps you know you could come up with a clever

2072
01:52:14,880 --> 01:52:20,519
Speaker 2: codeword or whatever, but don't you know it is security

2073
01:52:20,600 --> 01:52:22,760
Speaker 2: is like you said, holistic. You know you should not

2074
01:52:22,920 --> 01:52:25,679
Speaker 2: be looking at it as just like, well the app

2075
01:52:25,760 --> 01:52:27,000
Speaker 2: is secure, So that's enough.

2076
01:52:27,880 --> 01:52:29,519
Speaker 12: I mean one thing I also want people sort of

2077
01:52:29,520 --> 01:52:31,880
Speaker 12: think about too, because that's a really great point Robert is, like,

2078
01:52:32,400 --> 01:52:34,200
Speaker 12: we do all different kinds of things every day in

2079
01:52:34,240 --> 01:52:37,760
Speaker 12: our lives that could, you know, in dangerous. Like I

2080
01:52:37,760 --> 01:52:40,000
Speaker 12: think a lot of the work I do is I

2081
01:52:40,000 --> 01:52:41,840
Speaker 12: work a lot with people facing all different kinds of

2082
01:52:41,840 --> 01:52:44,800
Speaker 12: online harassment. So like falling in love, for example, is

2083
01:52:44,840 --> 01:52:47,000
Speaker 12: a dangerous thing to do. You could have your heart

2084
01:52:47,040 --> 01:52:51,000
Speaker 12: broken or that person could hurt you. Learning how to

2085
01:52:51,040 --> 01:52:56,640
Speaker 12: trust people, you know, crossing the street, deciding to jaywalk right,

2086
01:52:57,120 --> 01:52:59,320
Speaker 12: all different things we do sort of every day actually

2087
01:52:59,400 --> 01:53:01,760
Speaker 12: can expect to harm. And so one thing I think

2088
01:53:01,760 --> 01:53:03,559
Speaker 12: for people listening to keep in mind is that's the

2089
01:53:03,560 --> 01:53:06,599
Speaker 12: same when we have conversations. And I think a way

2090
01:53:06,640 --> 01:53:09,559
Speaker 12: to avoid nihilism is just to remember that that every

2091
01:53:09,600 --> 01:53:12,240
Speaker 12: day we are sort of going out there and actually

2092
01:53:12,320 --> 01:53:15,720
Speaker 12: being incredibly brave just by living our everyday lives, by

2093
01:53:16,080 --> 01:53:20,040
Speaker 12: deciding to be in community and have friendships and have relationships.

2094
01:53:21,160 --> 01:53:24,760
Speaker 12: And in my case, I love jaywalking, and no one

2095
01:53:24,760 --> 01:53:28,120
Speaker 12: around me does, and that's why that's my choice. And

2096
01:53:28,360 --> 01:53:32,240
Speaker 12: I have not yet gotten hit by a car j walking.

2097
01:53:33,000 --> 01:53:36,240
Speaker 2: I think it's good to look at this the same way.

2098
01:53:36,240 --> 01:53:40,320
Speaker 2: There's there's a concept that the military has sort of

2099
01:53:40,360 --> 01:53:43,320
Speaker 2: developed when talking about how not to die when you're

2100
01:53:43,320 --> 01:53:46,479
Speaker 2: in a gunfight or something. It's called the survivability onion, right,

2101
01:53:46,800 --> 01:53:49,160
Speaker 2: And I think it's extremely useful both if you're talking

2102
01:53:49,160 --> 01:53:50,920
Speaker 2: about like, well, I'm going to a protest and there

2103
01:53:50,920 --> 01:53:53,000
Speaker 2: will be violence there, you know, should I wear armor,

2104
01:53:53,040 --> 01:53:56,000
Speaker 2: et cetera. But it's also just really it's really useful

2105
01:53:56,000 --> 01:53:59,280
Speaker 2: with any kind of security and and the onion, it's

2106
01:53:59,320 --> 01:54:01,639
Speaker 2: it's in vision, doesn't on you because like the largest

2107
01:54:01,720 --> 01:54:05,080
Speaker 2: outside chunk of it is don't be seen, don't be acquired,

2108
01:54:05,080 --> 01:54:07,240
Speaker 2: which means somebody actually getting you in their head sights,

2109
01:54:07,760 --> 01:54:12,080
Speaker 2: don't be a hit, which means being behind cover or something.

2110
01:54:12,320 --> 01:54:14,760
Speaker 2: And then the very internal part of it is like

2111
01:54:14,880 --> 01:54:16,120
Speaker 2: have some sort of armor in.

2112
01:54:16,040 --> 01:54:16,920
Speaker 7: Case you are shot.

2113
01:54:17,280 --> 01:54:20,280
Speaker 2: But if you if the armor is useful, the majority

2114
01:54:20,280 --> 01:54:24,000
Speaker 2: of the onion has already failed. Right. If encryption is useful,

2115
01:54:24,640 --> 01:54:27,720
Speaker 2: that is not a dissimilar sort of situation. Right, So

2116
01:54:27,760 --> 01:54:32,520
Speaker 2: there's a there's a degree of canniness is super helpful

2117
01:54:32,520 --> 01:54:36,920
Speaker 2: and thinking about like what is what is visible about me?

2118
01:54:37,040 --> 01:54:39,840
Speaker 2: If I'm doing something, I know that I have to

2119
01:54:39,880 --> 01:54:44,320
Speaker 2: be extra concerned about the state seeing what is visible

2120
01:54:44,360 --> 01:54:46,480
Speaker 2: about me from the outside, you.

2121
01:54:46,440 --> 01:54:48,560
Speaker 12: Know, I mean, I think that's an amazing thing to

2122
01:54:48,600 --> 01:54:51,760
Speaker 12: think about. Like where where are you sending a text message?

2123
01:54:51,800 --> 01:54:54,560
Speaker 12: Are you in a place in which like someone can

2124
01:54:54,640 --> 01:54:58,440
Speaker 12: lean over, Like I'm the nosiest motherfucker in all the time.

2125
01:54:58,560 --> 01:55:01,520
Speaker 12: I'm constantly like looking around being like what's that person

2126
01:55:01,560 --> 01:55:04,360
Speaker 12: watching on an airplane? Or like if someone is sitting

2127
01:55:04,400 --> 01:55:07,080
Speaker 12: next to me scrolling, so like you wouldn't want to

2128
01:55:07,120 --> 01:55:09,520
Speaker 12: like send a sensitive text message like next to me,

2129
01:55:09,560 --> 01:55:12,640
Speaker 12: because I'd be like, that's that's interesting fodder.

2130
01:55:12,720 --> 01:55:14,680
Speaker 6: That's kind of a Texas to.

2131
01:55:14,680 --> 01:55:18,320
Speaker 12: Cooper later, you know, And so I think it's important

2132
01:55:18,360 --> 01:55:20,560
Speaker 12: to think about that, like who's around you?

2133
01:55:20,880 --> 01:55:20,960
Speaker 5: Is?

2134
01:55:21,000 --> 01:55:24,160
Speaker 12: This is like how are you describing something? Do you

2135
01:55:24,240 --> 01:55:26,720
Speaker 12: know the person you're messaging? If you're in a group message,

2136
01:55:26,760 --> 01:55:29,880
Speaker 12: you know everybody there? Like do you trust all of them?

2137
01:55:30,880 --> 01:55:31,120
Speaker 6: You know?

2138
01:55:31,160 --> 01:55:33,280
Speaker 12: And if you're ever nervous there are this is I

2139
01:55:33,320 --> 01:55:36,400
Speaker 12: guess the upside also to in person conversations. You can have,

2140
01:55:37,320 --> 01:55:39,600
Speaker 12: you know, a phone call or an in person conversation

2141
01:55:39,680 --> 01:55:42,800
Speaker 12: with someone. Right if you're really not sure or you

2142
01:55:42,840 --> 01:55:45,960
Speaker 12: don't feel comfortable even sending something over signal, that might

2143
01:55:46,000 --> 01:55:47,120
Speaker 12: be the time to be like, hey, do you want

2144
01:55:47,120 --> 01:55:49,120
Speaker 12: to meet up and get a coffee and then you know,

2145
01:55:50,840 --> 01:55:55,280
Speaker 12: try to find a discreet place to have have a conversation.

2146
01:55:56,120 --> 01:56:01,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I do want to roll to ads real quick.

2147
01:56:01,840 --> 01:56:03,920
Speaker 2: One second, and I think Cooper had something to say,

2148
01:56:04,000 --> 01:56:09,120
Speaker 2: and we'll we'll continue, but first products Ah, we're back Cooper.

2149
01:56:09,440 --> 01:56:11,720
Speaker 2: You look like you had something to add on that.

2150
01:56:12,240 --> 01:56:14,680
Speaker 13: Nothing particularly serious, just that I think that that's I

2151
01:56:14,720 --> 01:56:15,400
Speaker 13: think that that's.

2152
01:56:15,280 --> 01:56:18,000
Speaker 9: Really good advice for the military and absolutely justifies the

2153
01:56:18,120 --> 01:56:19,320
Speaker 9: nine hundred billion dollars.

2154
01:56:22,280 --> 01:56:26,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad they put together a fucking graphic. I

2155
01:56:26,080 --> 01:56:28,280
Speaker 2: wonder how many billions of dollars that did cost.

2156
01:56:28,760 --> 01:56:31,600
Speaker 12: I could I could make a graphic for hundreds of

2157
01:56:31,600 --> 01:56:32,600
Speaker 12: millions of dollars.

2158
01:56:32,800 --> 01:56:35,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, if anybody, if anybody wants to fund us for

2159
01:56:35,480 --> 01:56:37,520
Speaker 9: hundreds of millions, we will will do it less now

2160
01:56:37,880 --> 01:56:39,480
Speaker 9: a year, hundreds of millions.

2161
01:56:39,520 --> 01:56:43,320
Speaker 12: We have so many good T shirt ideas and sticker ideas, y'all, like,

2162
01:56:43,960 --> 01:56:47,000
Speaker 12: so many good ones, so many unhinged ones that the

2163
01:56:47,000 --> 01:56:48,080
Speaker 12: world needs to see.

2164
01:56:48,480 --> 01:56:51,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I uh, I mean I do. I guess just

2165
01:56:51,600 --> 01:56:53,600
Speaker 2: because of the amount of time I've spent thinking about

2166
01:56:53,600 --> 01:56:56,440
Speaker 2: this stuff from my old job. There are a couple

2167
01:56:56,440 --> 01:57:01,960
Speaker 2: of concepts from military planning I think about in this context,

2168
01:57:02,000 --> 01:57:04,680
Speaker 2: and one of them that I also think is relevant

2169
01:57:04,680 --> 01:57:06,960
Speaker 2: to what we're talking about with friction is the concept

2170
01:57:06,960 --> 01:57:09,440
Speaker 2: of an ode loop, right, which is how do you

2171
01:57:09,520 --> 01:57:13,560
Speaker 2: win and combat against an opponent, And it's by disrupting

2172
01:57:13,600 --> 01:57:15,240
Speaker 2: this thing called the ode loop, and the odor loop

2173
01:57:15,360 --> 01:57:20,400
Speaker 2: is how an adversary carries out actions in a conflict

2174
01:57:20,440 --> 01:57:23,000
Speaker 2: like this, right. And the steps you have to go

2175
01:57:23,040 --> 01:57:26,400
Speaker 2: for are observe, orient, decide, and act. And if you

2176
01:57:26,400 --> 01:57:29,240
Speaker 2: can disrupt any stage of that, you can stop them

2177
01:57:29,280 --> 01:57:32,320
Speaker 2: from taking actions, right, which stops them from being able

2178
01:57:32,320 --> 01:57:38,080
Speaker 2: to harm you. And the good security is going to

2179
01:57:38,240 --> 01:57:40,680
Speaker 2: impact all three of those things, right, It's going to

2180
01:57:40,720 --> 01:57:43,480
Speaker 2: stop them from being able to see you sometimes if

2181
01:57:43,520 --> 01:57:46,040
Speaker 2: they can see you, stuff like you know, you were

2182
01:57:46,080 --> 01:57:49,760
Speaker 2: just talking, we were just talking earlier about link previews, right,

2183
01:57:49,760 --> 01:57:51,800
Speaker 2: and how that can kind of expose maybe who you're

2184
01:57:51,840 --> 01:57:55,120
Speaker 2: in communication with potentially well, that could allow the state

2185
01:57:55,200 --> 01:57:57,920
Speaker 2: to orient themselves to you and to your friends, right.

2186
01:57:58,600 --> 01:58:01,800
Speaker 2: And obviously stuff like locking down your device is not

2187
01:58:01,880 --> 01:58:05,680
Speaker 2: having unnecessarily info online can stop them bring being able

2188
01:58:05,680 --> 01:58:08,160
Speaker 2: to decide you know what you're doing, and how they

2189
01:58:08,200 --> 01:58:11,480
Speaker 2: should respond to that. And I think that's also good

2190
01:58:11,760 --> 01:58:13,960
Speaker 2: if you're thinking, if you're not just somebody who is

2191
01:58:14,000 --> 01:58:16,520
Speaker 2: concerned about your security like most people are, because it's

2192
01:58:16,560 --> 01:58:20,320
Speaker 2: good to have some security. If you're actually dealing with

2193
01:58:20,600 --> 01:58:24,080
Speaker 2: the state or a corporation as an adversary in some way,

2194
01:58:24,480 --> 01:58:27,960
Speaker 2: it can be useful to think about your security culture

2195
01:58:27,960 --> 01:58:28,680
Speaker 2: in those terms.

2196
01:58:29,800 --> 01:58:33,560
Speaker 13: Yeah. Absolutely, I think that's absolutely right. It's it's and.

2197
01:58:33,560 --> 01:58:35,480
Speaker 9: I think that it's you know, it points to like

2198
01:58:35,600 --> 01:58:40,600
Speaker 9: we should we should understand what the you know mode

2199
01:58:40,600 --> 01:58:44,040
Speaker 9: of thinking of our adversaries is, right, like we you know,

2200
01:58:44,040 --> 01:58:47,840
Speaker 9: we should if your adversary is the NSA, right, which

2201
01:58:47,880 --> 01:58:51,400
Speaker 9: is like probably actually not most people in the US,

2202
01:58:51,440 --> 01:58:54,200
Speaker 9: Like for most US activists, the NSA is not actually

2203
01:58:54,280 --> 01:58:57,520
Speaker 9: your biggest adversary, right, Like your biggest adversary is going

2204
01:58:57,560 --> 01:59:00,240
Speaker 9: to be local police, right, your biggest adversary is going

2205
01:59:00,320 --> 01:59:03,320
Speaker 9: to be you know, the the you know, somebody like

2206
01:59:03,360 --> 01:59:05,720
Speaker 9: your abusive partner, right. And you need to And this

2207
01:59:05,760 --> 01:59:10,680
Speaker 9: is why threat modeling is important, because you need to

2208
01:59:10,680 --> 01:59:13,160
Speaker 9: to really to really think about, you know, think through

2209
01:59:13,280 --> 01:59:15,480
Speaker 9: like you know, well, okay, wait, am I actually worried

2210
01:59:15,480 --> 01:59:17,520
Speaker 9: about protecting myself from the NSA or am I more

2211
01:59:17,560 --> 01:59:21,320
Speaker 9: worried about? Uh uh, you know the the racist police

2212
01:59:21,360 --> 01:59:23,560
Speaker 9: officer that drives down my street every day?

2213
01:59:23,640 --> 01:59:23,760
Speaker 4: Right?

2214
01:59:23,760 --> 01:59:25,960
Speaker 9: And yeah, probably it's the latter. And so you can

2215
01:59:26,400 --> 01:59:30,080
Speaker 9: you can take a lot more useful actions, right uh

2216
01:59:30,160 --> 01:59:33,960
Speaker 9: and and you know you can, you can you know,

2217
01:59:34,040 --> 01:59:37,280
Speaker 9: break that oda loop for him once you know actually

2218
01:59:37,360 --> 01:59:40,200
Speaker 9: what it is. Right, Yeah, if you're defending yourself against

2219
01:59:40,240 --> 01:59:43,160
Speaker 9: the NSA, you're gonna leave yourself wide open to the

2220
01:59:43,320 --> 01:59:44,080
Speaker 9: actual threat.

2221
01:59:44,880 --> 01:59:45,120
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2222
01:59:45,120 --> 01:59:48,200
Speaker 2: It's really I think a great example. And I I

2223
01:59:48,200 --> 01:59:50,920
Speaker 2: don't mean to be like quote unquote sub tweeting somebody here,

2224
01:59:50,920 --> 01:59:53,840
Speaker 2: but I've known a couple of folks like this. It's like,

2225
01:59:53,880 --> 01:59:56,160
Speaker 2: if you have if you're super paranoid, you're not putting

2226
01:59:56,160 --> 01:59:59,240
Speaker 2: anything online, You're only talking with your close friends. You

2227
01:59:59,320 --> 02:00:02,320
Speaker 2: use a dumb you have burners, but you also drive

2228
02:00:02,360 --> 02:00:03,880
Speaker 2: around with a shitload of weed in your car in

2229
02:00:03,880 --> 02:00:06,480
Speaker 2: a state where that's illegal. It's like, well, like your

2230
02:00:06,720 --> 02:00:10,480
Speaker 2: your threat modeling is not great in that situation, right,

2231
02:00:10,600 --> 02:00:12,320
Speaker 2: Or like I do all that, but I carry in

2232
02:00:12,360 --> 02:00:15,600
Speaker 2: a legal handgun with me wherever I go. It's like, well,

2233
02:00:15,640 --> 02:00:18,120
Speaker 2: it may be more of a threat than your phone.

2234
02:00:18,360 --> 02:00:20,040
Speaker 6: My partner the other day, was like, what if I

2235
02:00:20,040 --> 02:00:21,360
Speaker 6: got a dumb phone? I was like, what if I

2236
02:00:21,400 --> 02:00:26,960
Speaker 6: divorced you? Like, like what if? They were like what

2237
02:00:26,960 --> 02:00:27,360
Speaker 6: do you mean?

2238
02:00:27,360 --> 02:00:28,840
Speaker 12: And I was like, well, I'm going to be the

2239
02:00:28,840 --> 02:00:32,440
Speaker 12: one using all the maps for both of us, Yeah.

2240
02:00:32,120 --> 02:00:35,320
Speaker 6: And having to google all the dumb shit you want

2241
02:00:35,320 --> 02:00:35,720
Speaker 6: to google.

2242
02:00:35,760 --> 02:00:38,480
Speaker 12: That doesn't make I'm now your weakest link, Like go

2243
02:00:38,560 --> 02:00:41,360
Speaker 12: fuck yourself. But also I was like, I'm absolutely not

2244
02:00:42,200 --> 02:00:46,120
Speaker 12: going to be your your Google maps bitch, Like I'm

2245
02:00:46,160 --> 02:00:47,120
Speaker 12: not not doing that.

2246
02:00:47,680 --> 02:00:49,440
Speaker 6: But but I.

2247
02:00:49,360 --> 02:00:51,120
Speaker 12: Mean I think also, do you know to both of

2248
02:00:51,160 --> 02:00:53,560
Speaker 12: y'all's points to get serious again for a second. I mean,

2249
02:00:53,600 --> 02:00:57,480
Speaker 12: you know, like my threat model, for example, might be

2250
02:00:57,760 --> 02:01:01,920
Speaker 12: similar or slightly different, maybe slightly less than Cooper's. But

2251
02:01:02,080 --> 02:01:04,720
Speaker 12: you know, like some of the like the the the

2252
02:01:04,840 --> 02:01:06,760
Speaker 12: journalists in India we were working with, have quite a

2253
02:01:06,840 --> 02:01:10,040
Speaker 12: high threat model, right, Like, yeah, the Indian police force

2254
02:01:10,440 --> 02:01:14,160
Speaker 12: are very much like the NSA. They're very talented, they

2255
02:01:14,200 --> 02:01:16,440
Speaker 12: have a lot of money and tech at their disposal,

2256
02:01:16,760 --> 02:01:20,080
Speaker 12: and that might be different for some of the activists

2257
02:01:20,080 --> 02:01:22,760
Speaker 12: we're working with, let's say in like Louisiana or Texas, right,

2258
02:01:23,960 --> 02:01:27,360
Speaker 12: But the differences is like we're still talking about I

2259
02:01:27,400 --> 02:01:32,160
Speaker 12: would argue two brutal police forces that just have different

2260
02:01:32,200 --> 02:01:35,080
Speaker 12: means of disposal at their hands. So like the Louisiana

2261
02:01:35,320 --> 02:01:39,120
Speaker 12: Police are our groups you should totally be worried about.

2262
02:01:39,360 --> 02:01:42,080
Speaker 12: They might not be able to hack your phone, but

2263
02:01:42,680 --> 02:01:45,240
Speaker 12: maybe eventually they could. But there are other there are

2264
02:01:45,280 --> 02:01:47,760
Speaker 12: obviously other things we're about with them. But you know,

2265
02:01:48,400 --> 02:01:50,560
Speaker 12: in the context of like with some of the folks

2266
02:01:50,560 --> 02:01:54,480
Speaker 12: who are working with in the South, like reproductive justice activists,

2267
02:01:54,880 --> 02:01:56,919
Speaker 12: some of the things are probably much more.

2268
02:01:58,560 --> 02:01:59,960
Speaker 6: Serious in terms of your threat model.

2269
02:02:00,080 --> 02:02:03,240
Speaker 12: Would be like a nurse for someone who, let's say,

2270
02:02:03,240 --> 02:02:06,320
Speaker 12: is miscarring or has sought an abortion. This is something

2271
02:02:06,400 --> 02:02:09,400
Speaker 12: Kate Bertash from the Digital Defense Fund, a friend of

2272
02:02:09,800 --> 02:02:12,520
Speaker 12: of you know ours, has talked about where like the

2273
02:02:12,600 --> 02:02:14,920
Speaker 12: people that are supposed to take care of you might

2274
02:02:14,960 --> 02:02:18,680
Speaker 12: be the ones that are actually your your biggest threat, right,

2275
02:02:18,880 --> 02:02:21,200
Speaker 12: the ones that have heard you say something or you've

2276
02:02:21,200 --> 02:02:24,480
Speaker 12: can fight it in for example, And that is kind

2277
02:02:24,480 --> 02:02:26,360
Speaker 12: of a horrifying thing to think about, but that is

2278
02:02:26,760 --> 02:02:29,120
Speaker 12: that is a thing you have to threat model, right

2279
02:02:29,240 --> 02:02:31,280
Speaker 12: is can I trust this person?

2280
02:02:31,920 --> 02:02:33,960
Speaker 6: How am I describing you know what's happening?

2281
02:02:34,640 --> 02:02:35,040
Speaker 13: Yeah?

2282
02:02:35,400 --> 02:02:39,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Well did y'all have anything else you wanted

2283
02:02:39,480 --> 02:02:42,320
Speaker 2: to make sure to get into in this conversation. There's

2284
02:02:42,320 --> 02:02:44,760
Speaker 2: so much more in your in the great paper you

2285
02:02:44,760 --> 02:02:48,000
Speaker 2: you helped co author What is Secure and Analysis of

2286
02:02:48,000 --> 02:02:51,720
Speaker 2: Popular Messaging Apps on the Tech Policy Press. But yeah,

2287
02:02:51,760 --> 02:02:53,680
Speaker 2: is there anything else y'all wanted to really make sure

2288
02:02:53,720 --> 02:02:54,840
Speaker 2: you hit before we roll out.

2289
02:02:55,400 --> 02:02:57,640
Speaker 12: Yeah, please don't use Telegram for a variety of reasons,

2290
02:02:57,640 --> 02:03:00,800
Speaker 12: but also like it's very unclear how they respond to

2291
02:03:00,840 --> 02:03:03,400
Speaker 12: any law enforcement or government. They don't say anything, and

2292
02:03:03,440 --> 02:03:05,720
Speaker 12: it's kind of impossible to reach anyone that works there.

2293
02:03:06,400 --> 02:03:10,200
Speaker 12: Please don't use Facebook Messenger other than maybe sending memes.

2294
02:03:11,760 --> 02:03:14,400
Speaker 12: There's a lot of really gross surveillance capitalism inside a

2295
02:03:14,400 --> 02:03:18,400
Speaker 12: Facebook Messenger that the paper gets into. But effectively, Meta

2296
02:03:18,440 --> 02:03:21,920
Speaker 12: is building this weird, sprawling infrastructure inside of Facebook Messenger

2297
02:03:21,960 --> 02:03:23,840
Speaker 12: and try to link Facebook and Instagram.

2298
02:03:24,280 --> 02:03:26,560
Speaker 6: And one of the things we noticed.

2299
02:03:26,320 --> 02:03:28,880
Speaker 12: Is that like if you've blocked someone on Instagram or

2300
02:03:28,960 --> 02:03:32,000
Speaker 12: mute to them, but you haven't blocked me them on Facebook,

2301
02:03:32,360 --> 02:03:34,920
Speaker 12: but your stories, like all those stories are still coming

2302
02:03:34,920 --> 02:03:38,800
Speaker 12: across in messengers, so you can still see content from

2303
02:03:38,840 --> 02:03:42,680
Speaker 12: someone because it's linking both of those both of those profiles,

2304
02:03:43,440 --> 02:03:45,800
Speaker 12: so you know, you could see how we're taking like

2305
02:03:45,880 --> 02:03:48,960
Speaker 12: an online harassment lens, like why that's why that's really bad,

2306
02:03:49,280 --> 02:03:53,800
Speaker 12: Why that's really harmful and could be potentially you know,

2307
02:03:54,280 --> 02:03:55,720
Speaker 12: upsetting and triggering for folks.

2308
02:03:57,880 --> 02:04:00,160
Speaker 13: Yeah, I'll add that thing.

2309
02:04:00,240 --> 02:04:02,480
Speaker 9: My The major thing I want people to to think

2310
02:04:02,480 --> 02:04:05,840
Speaker 9: about is that encryption really does work, and it works

2311
02:04:05,880 --> 02:04:08,720
Speaker 9: really well. And we can see that because a lot

2312
02:04:08,760 --> 02:04:12,040
Speaker 9: of countries right now are trying to pass laws that

2313
02:04:12,160 --> 02:04:14,960
Speaker 9: either weaken or byan encryption right and in fact, the

2314
02:04:15,040 --> 02:04:19,320
Speaker 9: UK uh did passed, did just pass such a law.

2315
02:04:19,200 --> 02:04:21,080
Speaker 13: The Online Safety Built in the UK.

2316
02:04:21,760 --> 02:04:25,320
Speaker 9: And so it's really important that we that we you know,

2317
02:04:25,400 --> 02:04:28,000
Speaker 9: push back against these laws and fight back against these

2318
02:04:28,080 --> 02:04:32,120
Speaker 9: laws and whenever we can, right And I'm not I'm

2319
02:04:32,160 --> 02:04:35,000
Speaker 9: not coming at this as somebody who's a big believer

2320
02:04:35,320 --> 02:04:39,480
Speaker 9: in the you know, in in incrementalism and in working

2321
02:04:39,480 --> 02:04:41,320
Speaker 9: with governments, but I think that I still think that

2322
02:04:41,360 --> 02:04:45,960
Speaker 9: it's really important to you know, educate folks and push

2323
02:04:46,040 --> 02:04:47,960
Speaker 9: back against these laws and try to not let these

2324
02:04:48,000 --> 02:04:51,760
Speaker 9: pass because these will be you know, really bad for

2325
02:04:51,880 --> 02:04:53,440
Speaker 9: all of us totally.

2326
02:04:53,640 --> 02:04:55,880
Speaker 12: And not to defend the online safe build because I

2327
02:04:55,920 --> 02:04:57,960
Speaker 12: would never do that, will go to my grave, not

2328
02:04:58,520 --> 02:05:02,240
Speaker 12: speaking highly of it, only speaking critically at least, like

2329
02:05:02,320 --> 02:05:07,520
Speaker 12: the pushback from encryption experts and encryption supporters like Merrit Whitaker,

2330
02:05:07,960 --> 02:05:12,160
Speaker 12: president of Signal, did lead to lawmakers in the UK,

2331
02:05:12,320 --> 02:05:16,600
Speaker 12: for example, admitting that there's no sort of feasible.

2332
02:05:16,240 --> 02:05:18,280
Speaker 6: Safe way to build a back door, right, And that

2333
02:05:18,440 --> 02:05:18,880
Speaker 6: is I.

2334
02:05:18,760 --> 02:05:23,320
Speaker 12: Think also a win because of so much pushback, because

2335
02:05:23,360 --> 02:05:26,360
Speaker 12: of so much research, because of so much criticism that

2336
02:05:26,800 --> 02:05:29,880
Speaker 12: security and privacy folks gave people that are pro encryption

2337
02:05:30,120 --> 02:05:33,520
Speaker 12: like that, we you know, we were able to walk

2338
02:05:33,640 --> 02:05:37,120
Speaker 12: back that part. And I do think that's a big deal,

2339
02:05:37,760 --> 02:05:41,920
Speaker 12: even if there are other issues with that bill, because

2340
02:05:41,920 --> 02:05:45,120
Speaker 12: I think it also sends a signal pun intended to

2341
02:05:45,720 --> 02:05:51,080
Speaker 12: other governments as well, and I think that that's incredibly important.

2342
02:05:51,120 --> 02:05:53,040
Speaker 12: But yeah, I would also say just just use Signal

2343
02:05:53,040 --> 02:05:53,720
Speaker 12: whenever you can.

2344
02:05:56,200 --> 02:06:00,800
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, we'll all right, folks, is going to

2345
02:06:00,800 --> 02:06:05,360
Speaker 2: be it for us here at it could happen here. Yeah,

2346
02:06:05,360 --> 02:06:08,240
Speaker 2: thank you all for listening, and thank you Cooper and

2347
02:06:08,440 --> 02:06:09,920
Speaker 2: Carolyn for coming on.

2348
02:06:11,080 --> 02:06:12,960
Speaker 9: Thank you for having us, yeah, and thank you for

2349
02:06:13,000 --> 02:06:13,400
Speaker 9: having us.

2350
02:06:13,600 --> 02:06:17,480
Speaker 12: You can find us on social media for now, I

2351
02:06:17,480 --> 02:06:19,560
Speaker 12: guess until it all lights on fire.

2352
02:06:19,760 --> 02:06:21,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, whichever one you want to trust.

2353
02:06:23,320 --> 02:06:27,640
Speaker 9: I'm Cooper Cue on most social media's Blue Sky Mastered

2354
02:06:27,680 --> 02:06:28,720
Speaker 9: on Shitter.

2355
02:06:29,760 --> 02:06:33,040
Speaker 12: Yeah, I'm Caroline Cinders, my first name, last name. Our

2356
02:06:33,120 --> 02:06:38,040
Speaker 12: lab is Convocation Research and Design Record Labs on Twitter

2357
02:06:38,080 --> 02:06:38,600
Speaker 12: at the moment.

2358
02:06:38,920 --> 02:06:41,120
Speaker 6: Hopefully we'll get begetting on Blue Sky very soon.

2359
02:06:42,120 --> 02:06:45,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'll probably get back on there more. Now.

2360
02:06:45,120 --> 02:06:50,120
Speaker 2: Twitter has gotten remarkably worse, which you know, we had

2361
02:06:50,120 --> 02:06:53,720
Speaker 2: a back back in the day on the old something

2362
02:06:53,800 --> 02:06:56,600
Speaker 2: Awful forums. There was a thread in one of the

2363
02:06:56,760 --> 02:07:00,919
Speaker 2: debate forums about this very right wing site, Free Republic,

2364
02:07:00,920 --> 02:07:03,280
Speaker 2: which is like one of the earliest reservoirs of what

2365
02:07:03,360 --> 02:07:07,320
Speaker 2: became trump Ism, and the tagline for the thread, just

2366
02:07:07,400 --> 02:07:10,000
Speaker 2: kind of watching these people was there is always more

2367
02:07:10,080 --> 02:07:13,320
Speaker 2: and it is always worse, And boy goddamn if that

2368
02:07:13,360 --> 02:07:17,200
Speaker 2: hasn't been a continually accurate statement about the whole of

2369
02:07:17,240 --> 02:07:19,880
Speaker 2: social media right now, isn't it time.

2370
02:07:19,800 --> 02:07:22,840
Speaker 6: Amazing to watch someone just light forty billion dollars on fire?

2371
02:07:23,040 --> 02:07:26,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, just like, yeah, totally to it.

2372
02:07:26,400 --> 02:07:29,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's like the nihilist and me being like, wow.

2373
02:07:29,520 --> 02:07:33,280
Speaker 2: Comrade Musk really really taking some hits to capitalism here.

2374
02:07:49,000 --> 02:07:52,960
Speaker 7: Hello, reviewone, it's me James. Today, I am back from

2375
02:07:52,960 --> 02:07:57,080
Speaker 7: my trip to kutis Don and I'm talking today with

2376
02:07:57,760 --> 02:08:02,200
Speaker 7: Rania Hayat, a name that I've probably just butchered, but

2377
02:08:02,480 --> 02:08:05,960
Speaker 7: Ranier is the communications officer for the Palestinian Journalist Syndicate,

2378
02:08:06,080 --> 02:08:09,240
Speaker 7: and we're very, very lucky to have Rennie talking to us.

2379
02:08:09,280 --> 02:08:10,720
Speaker 7: Welcome RENI, thank.

2380
02:08:10,640 --> 02:08:15,200
Speaker 15: You, Jams, thank you for contacting me and letting me

2381
02:08:15,280 --> 02:08:17,200
Speaker 15: be letting me with you.

2382
02:08:17,560 --> 02:08:21,800
Speaker 7: Yeah, of course you're very welcome. So I think Rania,

2383
02:08:23,000 --> 02:08:25,840
Speaker 7: it's been a really hard time to consume news. For

2384
02:08:25,880 --> 02:08:30,680
Speaker 7: the first week of what's happening. I was in mostly

2385
02:08:31,080 --> 02:08:33,760
Speaker 7: Sying and Iraqi, Curtistan, and I wasn't maybe consuming as

2386
02:08:33,840 --> 02:08:35,760
Speaker 7: much news so I normally do, because I was trying

2387
02:08:35,760 --> 02:08:39,160
Speaker 7: to write news in Todead, and then I got back

2388
02:08:39,680 --> 02:08:44,040
Speaker 7: just the the barraers you. Information and disinformation has been

2389
02:08:44,120 --> 02:08:47,920
Speaker 7: very hard for people to sort of wade through, and

2390
02:08:47,960 --> 02:08:50,520
Speaker 7: I wonder I think one of the things I'd like

2391
02:08:50,600 --> 02:08:54,640
Speaker 7: us to focus on first and foremost is the impact

2392
02:08:54,880 --> 02:09:01,720
Speaker 7: of Israel's bombing campaign on journalists, specifically working in Gaza.

2393
02:09:01,800 --> 02:09:04,000
Speaker 7: I know, like friends of mine a journalists in Gaza.

2394
02:09:04,080 --> 02:09:08,000
Speaker 7: We featured on this podcast before the people of Parkour,

2395
02:09:08,120 --> 02:09:13,880
Speaker 7: Gazah and I know that many journalists have lost their

2396
02:09:13,880 --> 02:09:16,800
Speaker 7: lives covering what's been happening. So can you explain a

2397
02:09:16,840 --> 02:09:20,800
Speaker 7: little bit about what's been happening and maybe bring us

2398
02:09:20,880 --> 02:09:22,960
Speaker 7: up to day on the amount of every loss is

2399
02:09:22,960 --> 02:09:24,920
Speaker 7: a tragedy, but like the amount of people who have

2400
02:09:25,000 --> 02:09:26,360
Speaker 7: lost their lives covering this.

2401
02:09:27,880 --> 02:09:33,080
Speaker 15: Yes, James, well, let's start that journalists in Gaza are

2402
02:09:33,200 --> 02:09:39,640
Speaker 15: civilians who are people who travel, they work, usually they

2403
02:09:39,680 --> 02:09:42,640
Speaker 15: should travel, but they work, They do their job. They

2404
02:09:42,720 --> 02:09:45,520
Speaker 15: try to cover the news with very hard conditions, with

2405
02:09:45,560 --> 02:09:48,840
Speaker 15: the daily life of Gaza. Since the beginning of the

2406
02:09:48,880 --> 02:09:53,440
Speaker 15: war against Gaza on the seventh of October, you know

2407
02:09:53,760 --> 02:09:59,480
Speaker 15: how the war started targeting everything in Gaza, not even

2408
02:09:59,800 --> 02:10:03,520
Speaker 15: all the people, more than the people, you know, the buildings,

2409
02:10:03,960 --> 02:10:09,480
Speaker 15: the children, even the animals, the plants, you know, just

2410
02:10:09,560 --> 02:10:12,520
Speaker 15: bombing and bombing and bombing, air strikes the whole time.

2411
02:10:14,120 --> 02:10:16,400
Speaker 15: At the beginning, we try to we have some our

2412
02:10:16,480 --> 02:10:22,640
Speaker 15: contacts with journalists and us we have our General Secretary

2413
02:10:22,800 --> 02:10:26,520
Speaker 15: member and so we try to get information from them.

2414
02:10:26,680 --> 02:10:30,120
Speaker 15: At the beginning, yeah, it was not easy, but it

2415
02:10:30,280 --> 02:10:33,520
Speaker 15: was okay to get some information about what's going on.

2416
02:10:34,240 --> 02:10:36,960
Speaker 15: But by the time. Now we reached to a place

2417
02:10:37,200 --> 02:10:41,400
Speaker 15: that when I call them, they always tell dozens of

2418
02:10:42,920 --> 02:10:47,600
Speaker 15: we don't know. We are disconnected. I'm homeless. Now, I

2419
02:10:47,640 --> 02:10:50,760
Speaker 15: am not able to get any news. I can't tell

2420
02:10:50,800 --> 02:10:53,280
Speaker 15: you about my friend or my neighbor next to me,

2421
02:10:53,360 --> 02:10:55,720
Speaker 15: but I'm not able to tell you about further than this.

2422
02:10:57,600 --> 02:11:00,720
Speaker 15: I will just give some statistics. Up to now, we

2423
02:11:00,800 --> 02:11:06,680
Speaker 15: have eighteen killed journalists who have been either killed while

2424
02:11:06,800 --> 02:11:13,560
Speaker 15: track covering, others were killed in their homes, being through

2425
02:11:13,600 --> 02:11:17,840
Speaker 15: air strikes with their families and so on. We have

2426
02:11:18,040 --> 02:11:22,080
Speaker 15: also many many journalists who have dozens of them have

2427
02:11:22,160 --> 02:11:25,320
Speaker 15: been injured. I'm really sorry, I was I wanted to

2428
02:11:25,360 --> 02:11:29,840
Speaker 15: have some you know, I curate statistics, but I can't

2429
02:11:29,840 --> 02:11:32,800
Speaker 15: give you until now. We are now trying trying to

2430
02:11:32,800 --> 02:11:37,520
Speaker 15: develop like a tool to get some statistics, but until

2431
02:11:37,520 --> 02:11:43,680
Speaker 15: now it's not working well. We have many journalists who

2432
02:11:43,720 --> 02:11:47,240
Speaker 15: lost their homes, homes because it was bomb bombed or

2433
02:11:47,920 --> 02:11:55,160
Speaker 15: ye air strikes. Others they were this place. Yeah, and

2434
02:11:56,360 --> 02:11:58,840
Speaker 15: many of them moves from their homes either because their

2435
02:11:58,840 --> 02:12:01,720
Speaker 15: homes was a bomb or other because they were threatened

2436
02:12:01,720 --> 02:12:04,480
Speaker 15: to stay at their home safely, so they go to

2437
02:12:04,520 --> 02:12:10,600
Speaker 15: other like schools, hospitals and so on. The most tragic

2438
02:12:10,840 --> 02:12:14,560
Speaker 15: is the journalists who are losing their families. When you

2439
02:12:14,600 --> 02:12:17,680
Speaker 15: call a journalist to ask him about any thing, they

2440
02:12:17,680 --> 02:12:20,280
Speaker 15: told you Okay, I lost my son, I lost my wife,

2441
02:12:20,320 --> 02:12:23,320
Speaker 15: I lost all my family, I lost my mother. Now

2442
02:12:24,320 --> 02:12:28,600
Speaker 15: they they are completely broken. You can't talk to them.

2443
02:12:28,680 --> 02:12:32,080
Speaker 15: They are you know, it's really very tragic situation.

2444
02:12:33,520 --> 02:12:37,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's I mean, it's literally unimaginable, Like, yeah, I

2445
02:12:37,480 --> 02:12:42,240
Speaker 7: think I've attended wars, I've lost friends, but nothing. I

2446
02:12:42,280 --> 02:12:45,720
Speaker 7: can't imagine what it's like on this scale. And it's

2447
02:12:46,160 --> 02:12:49,400
Speaker 7: heartbreaking to even think about it. And I think some

2448
02:12:49,440 --> 02:12:54,919
Speaker 7: of what you said obviously, like part of the situation

2449
02:12:55,040 --> 02:12:58,800
Speaker 7: this creates is that it's very hard to do reporting

2450
02:12:58,840 --> 02:13:00,920
Speaker 7: on the ground. It's always been hard to do reporting

2451
02:13:00,920 --> 02:13:05,720
Speaker 7: on the ground at Gaza. I have made plans to

2452
02:13:05,760 --> 02:13:09,600
Speaker 7: go to Gaza, which probably won't work out now, but

2453
02:13:09,720 --> 02:13:12,400
Speaker 7: like it's hard foreign press, and of course there are

2454
02:13:12,400 --> 02:13:15,200
Speaker 7: many very capable journalists within Ghays that we don't need

2455
02:13:15,840 --> 02:13:19,160
Speaker 7: foreign press to go then necessarily. But can you explain

2456
02:13:19,200 --> 02:13:23,600
Speaker 7: a little bit of how when this war started it

2457
02:13:23,640 --> 02:13:28,240
Speaker 7: didn't just like affect these people in terms of killing

2458
02:13:28,280 --> 02:13:32,040
Speaker 7: them killing their families, displacing them, destroying their homes. But

2459
02:13:32,080 --> 02:13:34,600
Speaker 7: also like every day this war goes on, it gets

2460
02:13:34,640 --> 02:13:36,960
Speaker 7: harder for us to see I think the impact of

2461
02:13:37,040 --> 02:13:40,400
Speaker 7: this war on civilians living in Gaza, right because of

2462
02:13:40,400 --> 02:13:41,760
Speaker 7: the damage to infrastructure.

2463
02:13:42,520 --> 02:13:47,200
Speaker 11: Is that fair to say, yes, this is what's going on,

2464
02:13:47,360 --> 02:13:53,000
Speaker 11: and yes, reporting is getting more and more complicated because

2465
02:13:53,040 --> 02:13:55,920
Speaker 11: as also you know, there is no electricity.

2466
02:13:56,400 --> 02:14:01,480
Speaker 15: Communication is very very difficult when sometimes through phone call

2467
02:14:01,600 --> 02:14:04,440
Speaker 15: I call them just to get something, they tell me, okay,

2468
02:14:04,840 --> 02:14:06,800
Speaker 15: wait until I get some internet and I will get

2469
02:14:06,840 --> 02:14:10,240
Speaker 15: back to you. I wait for hours and hours, sometimes

2470
02:14:10,400 --> 02:14:13,480
Speaker 15: for the second day to get a little information. So

2471
02:14:13,520 --> 02:14:17,280
Speaker 15: you can imagine how they can even contact with each other.

2472
02:14:18,680 --> 02:14:22,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, and yeah, that makes it very hard. I think

2473
02:14:22,920 --> 02:14:25,280
Speaker 7: often like we might have more into this is not

2474
02:14:25,400 --> 02:14:29,080
Speaker 7: uncommon actually, like you have more information sitting somewhere with

2475
02:14:29,120 --> 02:14:31,600
Speaker 7: a broad bank connection and access to Twitter than you

2476
02:14:31,680 --> 02:14:34,040
Speaker 7: do on the ground, right, Like they may not know

2477
02:14:34,200 --> 02:14:35,200
Speaker 7: everything that's happening.

2478
02:14:36,800 --> 02:14:41,720
Speaker 15: Yes, yeah, I don't know if I can talk about this,

2479
02:14:41,920 --> 02:14:46,400
Speaker 15: but you know about the restrictions that on all social

2480
02:14:46,440 --> 02:14:51,520
Speaker 15: media applications, the restrictions on the Palestinian contact content on

2481
02:14:51,560 --> 02:14:57,760
Speaker 15: the social media we're facing a big massive wave against

2482
02:14:57,760 --> 02:15:03,280
Speaker 15: our content, against our new was through Twitter, Instagram, Facebook,

2483
02:15:03,400 --> 02:15:08,840
Speaker 15: all those applications, So we are not able even to

2484
02:15:08,920 --> 02:15:12,320
Speaker 15: reach many people are banned, many people are hacked, and

2485
02:15:12,520 --> 02:15:15,760
Speaker 15: we are just hearing about the banning of many accounts

2486
02:15:15,760 --> 02:15:22,640
Speaker 15: of Palestinians. The very limited reach, very limited, and there

2487
02:15:22,640 --> 02:15:25,600
Speaker 15: are sometimes many times they are blocked or yeah, blocked

2488
02:15:25,680 --> 02:15:29,200
Speaker 15: or from posting and so on. So even also this

2489
02:15:29,320 --> 02:15:31,760
Speaker 15: is another problem that we are facing to reach out.

2490
02:15:32,560 --> 02:15:36,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think this is in a sense obviously, like

2491
02:15:37,280 --> 02:15:40,960
Speaker 7: it's in terms of specifically getting information about it, because

2492
02:15:40,960 --> 02:15:43,560
Speaker 7: I think that is important. I think if people could

2493
02:15:43,640 --> 02:15:47,480
Speaker 7: understand what it's like to see someone lose their baby,

2494
02:15:48,720 --> 02:15:52,880
Speaker 7: and then I think very few people would be able

2495
02:15:52,960 --> 02:15:56,320
Speaker 7: to in good conscious support that. And the fact that

2496
02:15:56,360 --> 02:15:59,480
Speaker 7: this has come at a time when I think generally,

2497
02:16:00,040 --> 02:16:04,160
Speaker 7: certainly for the US, reporting on things outside the US

2498
02:16:04,240 --> 02:16:07,680
Speaker 7: is an all time low, like it's atrocious, and so

2499
02:16:08,400 --> 02:16:12,080
Speaker 7: people lack the context to understand, not through any fault

2500
02:16:12,080 --> 02:16:14,000
Speaker 7: of their own right, but they've just been fed terrible,

2501
02:16:14,240 --> 02:16:17,440
Speaker 7: you know, opinion pieces for the last few years. They

2502
02:16:17,560 --> 02:16:20,200
Speaker 7: like the context to understand why what's happening is happening

2503
02:16:20,400 --> 02:16:27,280
Speaker 7: and I think obviously Elon Muskersport, Twitter and and just

2504
02:16:27,640 --> 02:16:30,560
Speaker 7: it's assessable. It's terrible, it's full of false information. And

2505
02:16:30,600 --> 02:16:34,640
Speaker 7: as you say, often videos that I have friends who

2506
02:16:34,720 --> 02:16:38,160
Speaker 7: are photographers in Gaza, a friends who are just people

2507
02:16:38,160 --> 02:16:41,280
Speaker 7: in Gaza and videos that they post will be taken down.

2508
02:16:41,400 --> 02:16:44,080
Speaker 7: It's sometimes they're to say it's too graphic, it's too violent,

2509
02:16:44,200 --> 02:16:48,200
Speaker 7: but like also that's their everyday life. Now that's been

2510
02:16:48,240 --> 02:16:53,120
Speaker 7: happening for two weeks. The graphic violence is sadly what's

2511
02:16:53,200 --> 02:16:54,320
Speaker 7: visited upon them every day.

2512
02:16:55,200 --> 02:17:02,039
Speaker 15: Yeah, yes, believe me, what's going on and because is

2513
02:17:02,160 --> 02:17:05,080
Speaker 15: very you can't imagine, you can't hold it when you

2514
02:17:05,120 --> 02:17:09,320
Speaker 15: when you watch it. Even the TV channels they try

2515
02:17:09,360 --> 02:17:15,080
Speaker 15: to make to minimize how dangerous and how violent are

2516
02:17:15,200 --> 02:17:19,560
Speaker 15: the scenes that we see. At the same time, I

2517
02:17:19,560 --> 02:17:22,800
Speaker 15: had a discussion this morning, I don't want people to

2518
02:17:22,879 --> 02:17:26,080
Speaker 15: cry for us. It's not I don't want people to

2519
02:17:26,120 --> 02:17:29,920
Speaker 15: cry for the babies killed and so with very hard

2520
02:17:30,080 --> 02:17:35,760
Speaker 15: pictures and videos, I just want the humanity without seeing

2521
02:17:35,800 --> 02:17:37,879
Speaker 15: the video just here that there is a child. It's

2522
02:17:37,920 --> 02:17:42,480
Speaker 15: loading child. Children. Thousands of children are losing their child's

2523
02:17:42,600 --> 02:17:47,279
Speaker 15: life or nothing, are losing their hands their legs. They

2524
02:17:47,320 --> 02:17:52,959
Speaker 15: are now handicapped. They don't know why. You know, we

2525
02:17:53,040 --> 02:17:55,720
Speaker 15: don't need to see the video, just know that this

2526
02:17:55,879 --> 02:17:58,640
Speaker 15: is going on. We don't want to make a tragedy.

2527
02:17:58,720 --> 02:18:02,119
Speaker 15: We don't want to to to people to cry with us.

2528
02:18:02,720 --> 02:18:06,760
Speaker 15: We cry. Yes, we want, okay, some solidarity, but it's

2529
02:18:07,720 --> 02:18:10,760
Speaker 15: not something to have the emotions and then then we

2530
02:18:10,840 --> 02:18:13,960
Speaker 15: sleep and then we wake up. That's what or no, no,

2531
02:18:14,040 --> 02:18:17,520
Speaker 15: there is something going on. We don't need the sympath

2532
02:18:17,600 --> 02:18:20,240
Speaker 15: you know, we need some actions, we need steps, we

2533
02:18:20,280 --> 02:18:21,320
Speaker 15: need humanity now.

2534
02:18:21,800 --> 02:18:25,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, So I think that's an excellent, really really excellent point.

2535
02:18:25,400 --> 02:18:27,480
Speaker 7: It's not a film or like something you can consume

2536
02:18:27,520 --> 02:18:30,520
Speaker 7: and then step away from. So what sort of solidarity

2537
02:18:30,560 --> 02:18:34,160
Speaker 7: actions can people take to support people in Gaza, to

2538
02:18:34,200 --> 02:18:39,280
Speaker 7: support journalists there, to support the greater cause of not

2539
02:18:39,520 --> 02:18:43,560
Speaker 7: having this issue where every few years thousands of Palestinian

2540
02:18:43,640 --> 02:18:44,680
Speaker 7: civilians get killed.

2541
02:18:45,560 --> 02:18:47,960
Speaker 15: Yes, well, to be honest, we want when we want

2542
02:18:48,000 --> 02:18:51,400
Speaker 15: to feel better, we turn on the television to see

2543
02:18:51,440 --> 02:18:55,680
Speaker 15: the demonstrations. When we see the demonstrations London, blocks cell

2544
02:18:56,720 --> 02:19:02,320
Speaker 15: the United States and different cities Arab world everywhere. When

2545
02:19:02,320 --> 02:19:05,200
Speaker 15: we see these demonstrations, we feel that somebody knows there

2546
02:19:05,240 --> 02:19:08,640
Speaker 15: is like a kind of movement. This helps us, and

2547
02:19:09,000 --> 02:19:12,880
Speaker 15: we need further steps after the demonstration. We need lobbying.

2548
02:19:13,120 --> 02:19:16,879
Speaker 15: We need the people who elect their governments who support

2549
02:19:17,160 --> 02:19:20,920
Speaker 15: those massacs and to say no, we give you legitimate

2550
02:19:21,040 --> 02:19:25,600
Speaker 15: legitimacy to be human. Stop this inhumanity. We need the

2551
02:19:25,600 --> 02:19:29,640
Speaker 15: people to lobby on their governments that this should not

2552
02:19:29,720 --> 02:19:34,000
Speaker 15: be supported. This is this is the real action that

2553
02:19:34,080 --> 02:19:37,480
Speaker 15: we need. Lobbying, lobbying, lobbying by the people, by the

2554
02:19:37,480 --> 02:19:38,400
Speaker 15: power of people.

2555
02:19:39,000 --> 02:19:41,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think it's one of those things like some

2556
02:19:41,360 --> 02:19:44,199
Speaker 7: things will never change in America, at least not by voting,

2557
02:19:44,280 --> 02:19:47,120
Speaker 7: but like some things, yeah, I have enough people, and

2558
02:19:47,160 --> 02:19:50,480
Speaker 7: I think more people, Like I remember when I moved

2559
02:19:50,480 --> 02:19:53,080
Speaker 7: to America fifteen years ago, when I was young at

2560
02:19:53,080 --> 02:19:55,600
Speaker 7: twenty one, and I came into America and I had

2561
02:19:55,600 --> 02:19:59,520
Speaker 7: a free Palestine, like a badge on my jacket, like

2562
02:20:00,200 --> 02:20:03,560
Speaker 7: things on my jacket, you know, and they sent me

2563
02:20:03,640 --> 02:20:06,840
Speaker 7: straight to secondary you know, like the like where they

2564
02:20:06,840 --> 02:20:08,320
Speaker 7: pat you down and take your clothes and go through

2565
02:20:08,320 --> 02:20:11,320
Speaker 7: your bags and stuch and like it just wasn't as

2566
02:20:11,320 --> 02:20:13,320
Speaker 7: big of a concern. I think more people in the

2567
02:20:13,320 --> 02:20:16,640
Speaker 7: fifteen years since then have become aware of the tragedy

2568
02:20:16,720 --> 02:20:20,320
Speaker 7: and the loss of life. And certainly now I've seen

2569
02:20:20,360 --> 02:20:25,320
Speaker 7: more people wake up to what's happening and protest or

2570
02:20:25,959 --> 02:20:27,800
Speaker 7: you know, get out and do things in a way

2571
02:20:27,840 --> 02:20:30,200
Speaker 7: that they wouldn't have done ten years ago. And I

2572
02:20:30,200 --> 02:20:35,320
Speaker 7: think that's really it's good, Like hopefully that demand for

2573
02:20:35,520 --> 02:20:38,119
Speaker 7: people to be allowed to live with dignity and safety continues.

2574
02:20:39,440 --> 02:20:42,000
Speaker 15: Yes, I mean, I just always want to ask anybody

2575
02:20:42,040 --> 02:20:44,720
Speaker 15: you'd like to say, are you happy to pay your

2576
02:20:44,760 --> 02:20:46,240
Speaker 15: taxt for killing others?

2577
02:20:46,640 --> 02:20:46,840
Speaker 7: Is it?

2578
02:20:46,879 --> 02:20:47,080
Speaker 11: Yeah?

2579
02:20:47,200 --> 02:20:49,879
Speaker 7: Jesus, Yeah, this is.

2580
02:20:50,080 --> 02:20:53,520
Speaker 15: The very initial, very first question. Are you happy with this?

2581
02:20:53,640 --> 02:20:57,240
Speaker 15: Do you pay your tax for this or for anything

2582
02:20:57,280 --> 02:21:02,200
Speaker 15: that you like to have your text to be paid for? Yeah,

2583
02:21:02,400 --> 02:21:06,360
Speaker 15: this is what we want. We're we are facing killing,

2584
02:21:06,400 --> 02:21:10,240
Speaker 15: we are facing assination and bombarding and so on, and

2585
02:21:10,360 --> 02:21:13,800
Speaker 15: we need all what we need as humanity, nothing else.

2586
02:21:14,680 --> 02:21:20,160
Speaker 7: I was thinking this morning of like, how very obviously

2587
02:21:20,240 --> 02:21:23,680
Speaker 7: right when when Russia bombed Ukrainian cities, most people said

2588
02:21:23,720 --> 02:21:26,240
Speaker 7: we should help the Ukrainians, send them ms, send them

2589
02:21:26,600 --> 02:21:28,800
Speaker 7: medical supplies, and some of them went and volunteered to

2590
02:21:28,800 --> 02:21:33,320
Speaker 7: fight for the Ukrainians when and I understand that like

2591
02:21:33,560 --> 02:21:37,160
Speaker 7: this obviously this, this conflict began in very different circumstances

2592
02:21:37,640 --> 02:21:40,520
Speaker 7: other than the Russia Ukraine conflict, but nonetheless, like, little

2593
02:21:40,560 --> 02:21:44,000
Speaker 7: children are being killed and continue to be killed, and

2594
02:21:44,080 --> 02:21:47,480
Speaker 7: the response wasn't the same. And I think some of

2595
02:21:47,520 --> 02:21:51,320
Speaker 7: that comes from like and not particularly hard to see

2596
02:21:51,320 --> 02:21:55,080
Speaker 7: orientalism in the US and the US media. Also some

2597
02:21:55,120 --> 02:21:58,240
Speaker 7: of it comes from the complete absence of Palestinian voices

2598
02:21:58,440 --> 02:22:02,800
Speaker 7: in certainly in like English language press in America. And

2599
02:22:02,840 --> 02:22:06,119
Speaker 7: I wonder, like I know that there are certain organizations

2600
02:22:06,160 --> 02:22:10,160
Speaker 7: which have specifically worked to make it harder for Palestinian journalists,

2601
02:22:10,160 --> 02:22:14,280
Speaker 7: like my friend Hausam Salem. He's an excellent photographer. You

2602
02:22:14,280 --> 02:22:16,480
Speaker 7: can find him on all the places where you find

2603
02:22:16,520 --> 02:22:19,360
Speaker 7: people on the internet. But we worked on stories together,

2604
02:22:19,920 --> 02:22:22,840
Speaker 7: and I know he's now had he's lost contract with

2605
02:22:22,920 --> 02:22:26,760
Speaker 7: major outlets because of this sort of campaign of accusing

2606
02:22:26,800 --> 02:22:29,320
Speaker 7: him of biased. I think it's hard not to be

2607
02:22:29,360 --> 02:22:32,800
Speaker 7: biased when you see a little children die. But I

2608
02:22:32,800 --> 02:22:35,039
Speaker 7: wonder if you could talk about that, like how Palestinian

2609
02:22:35,120 --> 02:22:38,000
Speaker 7: voices are excluded or missing from what even now right

2610
02:22:38,040 --> 02:22:41,879
Speaker 7: the Atlantic since two weeks of bombing now and I

2611
02:22:41,920 --> 02:22:43,840
Speaker 7: was looking this morning and they've managed to find two

2612
02:22:43,879 --> 02:22:48,879
Speaker 7: Palestinian voices to share, like you know, it's maybe not,

2613
02:22:48,920 --> 02:22:50,520
Speaker 7: and I'll have to check that after we've done. But

2614
02:22:51,440 --> 02:22:54,600
Speaker 7: I was flicking through these big sort of opinion piece

2615
02:22:54,640 --> 02:22:58,320
Speaker 7: type outlets and it's very clear that like even now,

2616
02:22:59,120 --> 02:23:02,640
Speaker 7: people haven't editors specifically or the greater press has not

2617
02:23:03,360 --> 02:23:06,920
Speaker 7: stopped excluding Palestinia voices. So maybe we could talk about

2618
02:23:06,959 --> 02:23:09,160
Speaker 7: like how that happens, what allows it to happen, and

2619
02:23:09,200 --> 02:23:12,640
Speaker 7: what people can do to help lift up those voices.

2620
02:23:14,120 --> 02:23:20,640
Speaker 15: Well, yes, Prestilian voices are being banned all over by

2621
02:23:20,680 --> 02:23:25,400
Speaker 15: different movements. There are many times fired from their works

2622
02:23:25,440 --> 02:23:34,480
Speaker 15: and big news outlets and media outlets for different political reasons.

2623
02:23:34,600 --> 02:23:37,080
Speaker 15: And if you want to go and through the stories,

2624
02:23:37,120 --> 02:23:39,920
Speaker 15: you find that some people are just trying to make

2625
02:23:42,560 --> 02:23:46,160
Speaker 15: to make problems for those people to let them leave

2626
02:23:46,200 --> 02:23:50,440
Speaker 15: their work and stop writing or telling their news or

2627
02:23:50,480 --> 02:23:54,160
Speaker 15: analyzing or anything about the Perestinian cause and what's going on.

2628
02:23:54,640 --> 02:23:58,480
Speaker 15: We're facing this globally, and we have many cases recorded

2629
02:23:59,240 --> 02:24:04,039
Speaker 15: undocumented in the PGS, and we can give you many

2630
02:24:04,080 --> 02:24:09,119
Speaker 15: examples about them. But I have to tell about something

2631
02:24:09,160 --> 02:24:13,199
Speaker 15: that we're a member of the International Federation of Journalists

2632
02:24:13,240 --> 02:24:18,039
Speaker 15: and we have also even our president of Brazilian Perlisinian

2633
02:24:18,120 --> 02:24:22,280
Speaker 15: Journalist Syndicate. He's a vice president of the International Federation

2634
02:24:22,320 --> 02:24:25,600
Speaker 15: of Journalist. He has been elected last year in the

2635
02:24:25,680 --> 02:24:30,640
Speaker 15: last congress. We have sister unions. One of them one

2636
02:24:30,680 --> 02:24:35,160
Speaker 15: of the best friends of us are the National Writers Union,

2637
02:24:35,560 --> 02:24:39,480
Speaker 15: the American National Writers Union, which is a very big

2638
02:24:39,520 --> 02:24:47,760
Speaker 15: supporter to us. They even Harry got Better, the general secretary,

2639
02:24:48,040 --> 02:24:50,880
Speaker 15: even he visited us in Palestine a few months ago,

2640
02:24:51,080 --> 02:24:54,840
Speaker 15: and he's a very supporter of what's going on, of

2641
02:24:54,920 --> 02:24:58,600
Speaker 15: all our statements of our news at the beginning of

2642
02:24:58,640 --> 02:25:06,040
Speaker 15: the world. They they produced like a statement about biasity

2643
02:25:05,480 --> 02:25:10,920
Speaker 15: and misleading news and so on, how to avoid them,

2644
02:25:10,959 --> 02:25:15,760
Speaker 15: supporting the Pristinians, supporting our life, our right to life,

2645
02:25:15,840 --> 02:25:19,600
Speaker 15: and so on. So we we highly appreciate this movement.

2646
02:25:20,600 --> 02:25:24,040
Speaker 15: Of course, it's not the only one. Many many syndicates,

2647
02:25:24,160 --> 02:25:28,560
Speaker 15: many unions all over the world sent us solidarity letters.

2648
02:25:29,600 --> 02:25:33,840
Speaker 15: Some of them supported us even with some in kind contribution,

2649
02:25:34,080 --> 02:25:37,760
Speaker 15: with some funds in addition to solidarity, in addition to

2650
02:25:38,040 --> 02:25:41,760
Speaker 15: demonstrations and so on, which really gave us a lot

2651
02:25:41,800 --> 02:25:45,280
Speaker 15: of power of hope. So we can continue and we

2652
02:25:45,320 --> 02:25:46,160
Speaker 15: are not alone.

2653
02:25:46,760 --> 02:25:50,600
Speaker 7: Mm hmm, yeah. I think that's really powerful. Yeah, and well,

2654
02:25:50,640 --> 02:25:53,560
Speaker 7: I mean it's not enough, but it's something the unions.

2655
02:25:53,600 --> 02:25:55,480
Speaker 7: I think people also the members of the union can

2656
02:25:55,600 --> 02:25:57,720
Speaker 7: encourage the union to do that, right, just to make

2657
02:25:57,760 --> 02:26:02,200
Speaker 7: a statement. Yeah, it's the show some solidarity. I wonder

2658
02:26:02,520 --> 02:26:06,920
Speaker 7: like what you talked about in kind donations and you

2659
02:26:06,920 --> 02:26:09,080
Speaker 7: talked about the support you're getting from unions. I know

2660
02:26:09,920 --> 02:26:13,280
Speaker 7: one unions which i'm a member, that's your Workers of

2661
02:26:13,320 --> 02:26:17,720
Speaker 7: the World FJAU just did a fundraiser, still doing a

2662
02:26:17,720 --> 02:26:23,200
Speaker 7: fundraiser for flag Vest, bullet professors, for journalists. What kind

2663
02:26:23,240 --> 02:26:26,640
Speaker 7: of support can people give, like in a concrete sense,

2664
02:26:26,680 --> 02:26:29,560
Speaker 7: beyond getting in the streets and protesting and writing letters

2665
02:26:29,600 --> 02:26:32,920
Speaker 7: and emails and phone calls. Is the stuff that they

2666
02:26:32,959 --> 02:26:34,840
Speaker 7: can do with their money if they have some money.

2667
02:26:37,200 --> 02:26:40,119
Speaker 15: Well, it's not a kind of money, it's a kind

2668
02:26:40,200 --> 02:26:44,360
Speaker 15: of I will tell you now. The situation in Gaza

2669
02:26:44,800 --> 02:26:47,879
Speaker 15: we can't or what we do we need is a ceasfire,

2670
02:26:49,120 --> 02:26:52,879
Speaker 15: to be honest. They even don't have fresh water they drink,

2671
02:26:52,959 --> 02:26:57,280
Speaker 15: by the way, they say, try to minimize that the

2672
02:26:57,320 --> 02:26:59,720
Speaker 15: water they drink, and they know that the water they

2673
02:26:59,800 --> 02:27:03,480
Speaker 15: drink is not very clean. But just to survive, so

2674
02:27:03,560 --> 02:27:06,080
Speaker 15: you can start with this very basic need of life

2675
02:27:06,080 --> 02:27:11,439
Speaker 15: and then you go further. As I already told you

2676
02:27:11,520 --> 02:27:14,480
Speaker 15: that the safety vests are very important, but when you

2677
02:27:14,520 --> 02:27:18,560
Speaker 15: are under strikes, this will never help you. But if

2678
02:27:18,600 --> 02:27:21,560
Speaker 15: I want to talk about the daily life, about how

2679
02:27:21,600 --> 02:27:25,439
Speaker 15: it's going and the West Bank and Gaza, our journalists,

2680
02:27:26,120 --> 02:27:32,520
Speaker 15: we all work under the same conditions of aggressive events,

2681
02:27:32,879 --> 02:27:37,560
Speaker 15: covering aggressive events and so on. So we try as

2682
02:27:37,760 --> 02:27:41,640
Speaker 15: PJAS to contact all the media outlets in Palestine to

2683
02:27:41,959 --> 02:27:47,120
Speaker 15: offer or provide safety kits for all journalists who work

2684
02:27:47,160 --> 02:27:53,680
Speaker 15: in the field. But for example our freelancers, they work

2685
02:27:53,800 --> 02:28:00,360
Speaker 15: on their on responsibility and a very denserse situation. We

2686
02:28:00,480 --> 02:28:04,480
Speaker 15: try to to to tell how dangerous that what they

2687
02:28:04,480 --> 02:28:06,440
Speaker 15: do when you go to cover with you don't have

2688
02:28:06,600 --> 02:28:12,800
Speaker 15: very full safety kits or it's it's very dangerous for them,

2689
02:28:12,840 --> 02:28:15,320
Speaker 15: but they are not able to to cover it and

2690
02:28:15,360 --> 02:28:18,240
Speaker 15: they want to they need to work, they need to

2691
02:28:18,280 --> 02:28:21,200
Speaker 15: do their job, so they do it in a very strange,

2692
02:28:21,959 --> 02:28:26,039
Speaker 15: very dangerous conditions. So one of the things that we

2693
02:28:26,120 --> 02:28:31,720
Speaker 15: can support Junius is yes, safety kets which are very important.

2694
02:28:33,200 --> 02:28:43,320
Speaker 15: Medical kits also are very important. What what else we

2695
02:28:43,440 --> 02:28:47,840
Speaker 15: try we try to to do also we try to

2696
02:28:48,000 --> 02:28:52,279
Speaker 15: raise the awareness to make some materials for the journals

2697
02:28:52,360 --> 02:28:57,039
Speaker 15: about safety. Safety is very important for us. We try

2698
02:28:57,080 --> 02:28:59,600
Speaker 15: to to to teach them more about how to take

2699
02:28:59,640 --> 02:29:01,720
Speaker 15: care of them themselves, how to report and so on,

2700
02:29:01,800 --> 02:29:07,039
Speaker 15: about their security and so on. Yeah, this is mainly

2701
02:29:07,080 --> 02:29:10,480
Speaker 15: what I can talk about for the needs or the

2702
02:29:10,520 --> 02:29:13,080
Speaker 15: in kind contribution, as I told you, in the current situation,

2703
02:29:13,240 --> 02:29:17,800
Speaker 15: for example, we try to support through some donations, through

2704
02:29:17,920 --> 02:29:22,640
Speaker 15: support to support the journalists with better charging. But it

2705
02:29:22,720 --> 02:29:25,480
Speaker 15: is because of the lack of electricity and power sources

2706
02:29:25,480 --> 02:29:29,320
Speaker 15: in Gaza, so just to give them connected currently and

2707
02:29:29,320 --> 02:29:32,840
Speaker 15: they are very useful for them and it helps. Now.

2708
02:29:33,560 --> 02:29:36,720
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I can see. It's probably best that you

2709
02:29:36,720 --> 02:29:38,680
Speaker 7: guys just have money and then you can be flexible

2710
02:29:38,720 --> 02:29:41,440
Speaker 7: in getting what people need. I think that's generally the

2711
02:29:41,440 --> 02:29:44,480
Speaker 7: best advice is when there's a crisis, is to send

2712
02:29:44,480 --> 02:29:46,480
Speaker 7: the people nearest to it money and then they can

2713
02:29:46,480 --> 02:29:50,080
Speaker 7: decide what they need. Certainly, I found that I found

2714
02:29:50,080 --> 02:29:53,520
Speaker 7: that in a lot of places I worked. Yes, so

2715
02:29:53,800 --> 02:29:56,280
Speaker 7: you talked about the power situation. I think that's sort

2716
02:29:56,320 --> 02:30:00,400
Speaker 7: of it has gone relatively unreported. I mean it'll still

2717
02:30:00,440 --> 02:30:02,560
Speaker 7: say like the power and water being cut off, but

2718
02:30:03,560 --> 02:30:06,640
Speaker 7: that creates a lot of other dangerous situations, right, Like

2719
02:30:06,680 --> 02:30:09,520
Speaker 7: obviously some people rely on that power if they're infirm,

2720
02:30:09,600 --> 02:30:11,840
Speaker 7: if they have medical devices, that kind of thing. But

2721
02:30:11,920 --> 02:30:15,480
Speaker 7: also like where there are places to charge, that results

2722
02:30:15,480 --> 02:30:17,720
Speaker 7: in a very high concentration of people, right Like my

2723
02:30:18,280 --> 02:30:20,879
Speaker 7: friend was telling me that their parents were in a

2724
02:30:20,920 --> 02:30:24,640
Speaker 7: hospital to charge their their devices. Right They wanted to

2725
02:30:24,840 --> 02:30:27,640
Speaker 7: call their child and say we're safe, we're alive, but

2726
02:30:27,680 --> 02:30:29,080
Speaker 7: their phone had run out of batteries, so they had

2727
02:30:29,080 --> 02:30:31,640
Speaker 7: to go to the hospital. Yeah, can you explain a

2728
02:30:31,680 --> 02:30:33,800
Speaker 7: little bit of some of the things that like that

2729
02:30:33,800 --> 02:30:36,920
Speaker 7: that has resulted in the loss of power for people.

2730
02:30:37,840 --> 02:30:42,360
Speaker 15: Yes, of course. But first of all, let me tell

2731
02:30:42,400 --> 02:30:46,440
Speaker 15: you that we already asked quested all our journalists and

2732
02:30:46,480 --> 02:30:51,360
Speaker 15: Gaza to be in the hospitals. Well, there's safety, we try,

2733
02:30:51,480 --> 02:30:54,320
Speaker 15: we expect that it would be a safe pless but

2734
02:30:54,360 --> 02:30:56,959
Speaker 15: there is no safe less in Gaza now, as you're

2735
02:30:57,320 --> 02:31:02,760
Speaker 15: already know about the hospitals that have been targeted. But

2736
02:31:03,400 --> 02:31:05,959
Speaker 15: we we already asked them to be in the hospitals.

2737
02:31:06,080 --> 02:31:09,120
Speaker 15: We try to make some press zones and the hospitals

2738
02:31:09,240 --> 02:31:12,000
Speaker 15: in some places where it's for press for journalists to

2739
02:31:12,080 --> 02:31:17,960
Speaker 15: be there, So they can get some electricity power and

2740
02:31:18,080 --> 02:31:21,160
Speaker 15: so they can all to be together, try to exchange

2741
02:31:21,160 --> 02:31:27,240
Speaker 15: information and work together, so it will be better for

2742
02:31:27,280 --> 02:31:31,879
Speaker 15: them to work and safer between brackets always for them

2743
02:31:31,920 --> 02:31:36,640
Speaker 15: to work. To be honest, yes, I don't know. If

2744
02:31:36,640 --> 02:31:40,720
Speaker 15: you see the news now, it's we had the sun

2745
02:31:40,760 --> 02:31:44,600
Speaker 15: has set, so it's completely dark because you just can

2746
02:31:44,720 --> 02:31:49,600
Speaker 15: have some lightned spots which are the hospitals. And you

2747
02:31:49,720 --> 02:31:54,680
Speaker 15: know that even the solar and the sorry, the fuel

2748
02:31:54,720 --> 02:32:01,920
Speaker 15: for school for hospitals is about to to to finish

2749
02:32:02,040 --> 02:32:06,720
Speaker 15: here and in two days I think maximum. But we

2750
02:32:06,800 --> 02:32:10,280
Speaker 15: will see. Maybe we'll have some trucks or they will

2751
02:32:10,320 --> 02:32:13,040
Speaker 15: get something inside Gaza for fuel and so on. But

2752
02:32:13,280 --> 02:32:14,320
Speaker 15: I'm not sure about this.

2753
02:32:14,879 --> 02:32:18,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think, yeah, every day it's changing, I guess.

2754
02:32:19,440 --> 02:32:21,680
Speaker 7: And I wondered, like talking about getting things into gather,

2755
02:32:21,879 --> 02:32:26,000
Speaker 7: getting getting things two people in Gaza, a thing that

2756
02:32:26,160 --> 02:32:29,800
Speaker 7: seems to be completely like, I don't know, it genuinely

2757
02:32:29,800 --> 02:32:31,440
Speaker 7: seems to be that people think people could just walk

2758
02:32:31,480 --> 02:32:34,959
Speaker 7: out of Gaza and and you know, go somewhere else.

2759
02:32:36,000 --> 02:32:37,880
Speaker 7: So I guess, just to be extremely clear on that,

2760
02:32:37,920 --> 02:32:41,920
Speaker 7: can you explain the situation for people in Gaza with

2761
02:32:41,959 --> 02:32:44,520
Speaker 7: respect to if they want them mobility and their ability

2762
02:32:44,560 --> 02:32:47,520
Speaker 7: to leave, because I think it's something that again has

2763
02:32:47,560 --> 02:32:50,840
Speaker 7: been like criminally overlooked in the United States, discourse.

2764
02:32:52,400 --> 02:32:53,920
Speaker 15: Ability to leave Gaza.

2765
02:32:54,040 --> 02:32:57,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, like a lack thereof would be more accurate, right,

2766
02:32:57,400 --> 02:32:59,360
Speaker 7: like they complete absence of that.

2767
02:33:00,040 --> 02:33:04,279
Speaker 15: Well, unfortunately, people and gas are blocked. They are all

2768
02:33:05,080 --> 02:33:07,280
Speaker 15: and they are not allowed to leave Gaza with any

2769
02:33:07,360 --> 02:33:11,480
Speaker 15: kind of borders. Even the people who have international passports

2770
02:33:11,520 --> 02:33:16,080
Speaker 15: like American, European or whatever passports, they are not now,

2771
02:33:16,200 --> 02:33:20,080
Speaker 15: they are not able to leave gazam. They have to

2772
02:33:20,120 --> 02:33:21,039
Speaker 15: face their fate.

2773
02:33:21,160 --> 02:33:21,400
Speaker 5: Now.

2774
02:33:21,600 --> 02:33:24,680
Speaker 15: They are just displaced from place to another. Some people

2775
02:33:24,720 --> 02:33:30,000
Speaker 15: have been displaced four times and for areas different areas,

2776
02:33:30,480 --> 02:33:36,600
Speaker 15: and others were displaced and bombed later. So no, they

2777
02:33:36,640 --> 02:33:39,520
Speaker 15: are blocked. They have They are blocked in a like

2778
02:33:39,600 --> 02:33:43,880
Speaker 15: a very limited area which is under strikes the whole time.

2779
02:33:44,440 --> 02:33:50,480
Speaker 15: No place is safe. Even the Baptist hospital. They thought

2780
02:33:50,480 --> 02:33:53,560
Speaker 15: that it would be a Baptist hospital hospital related to

2781
02:33:53,600 --> 02:33:58,880
Speaker 15: a church and so on. It was strike massively cruely.

2782
02:34:01,280 --> 02:34:05,200
Speaker 15: More than five hundred have been killed. They were all children.

2783
02:34:05,320 --> 02:34:08,440
Speaker 15: Mothers are sitting just as a thinking that it would

2784
02:34:08,480 --> 02:34:11,920
Speaker 15: be a shelter for them. So yes, this is the

2785
02:34:11,959 --> 02:34:16,320
Speaker 15: situation Gaza. There is no safe place, no hospitals. If

2786
02:34:16,320 --> 02:34:18,040
Speaker 15: you are in a hospital, you will be bombed. If

2787
02:34:18,080 --> 02:34:20,080
Speaker 15: you're in school you'll be bombed. If you are in

2788
02:34:20,120 --> 02:34:22,400
Speaker 15: a mosque if you will be bombed. If you're in

2789
02:34:22,400 --> 02:34:27,080
Speaker 15: a church, you will be bombed. No safe place unfortunately.

2790
02:34:27,680 --> 02:34:34,879
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's yeah, it's it's unimaginable. And like the act

2791
02:34:34,920 --> 02:34:37,199
Speaker 7: of bombing that we were talking about this before we started,

2792
02:34:37,280 --> 02:34:42,280
Speaker 7: but like when you're being bombed, it's very different from

2793
02:34:42,280 --> 02:34:44,879
Speaker 7: like a small art conflict or even like a you

2794
02:34:44,920 --> 02:34:50,360
Speaker 7: know whatever, artillery motors rockets like you, there isn't much

2795
02:34:50,400 --> 02:34:53,160
Speaker 7: you can do to be safe. It's not like there

2796
02:34:53,200 --> 02:34:55,680
Speaker 7: is no like cover from bombs. You know that you

2797
02:34:56,160 --> 02:34:57,400
Speaker 7: you there's no.

2798
02:34:59,320 --> 02:35:01,640
Speaker 15: By the way, there's not under ground shoulders.

2799
02:35:02,160 --> 02:35:03,080
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2800
02:35:03,160 --> 02:35:05,039
Speaker 15: Yeah, and now they are intense. By the way, they

2801
02:35:05,080 --> 02:35:09,520
Speaker 15: were in houses. The houses they were falling on their heads,

2802
02:35:09,560 --> 02:35:13,200
Speaker 15: so they went to tense. So when they were tent falls, it's.

2803
02:35:13,160 --> 02:35:17,959
Speaker 7: Not so yeah Jesus, Yeah, it's bit's bleak. It's yeah,

2804
02:35:18,120 --> 02:35:22,360
Speaker 7: it's it's unimaginable. Like I said, yeah, I just spent

2805
02:35:22,400 --> 02:35:23,600
Speaker 7: a week in a place that was being.

2806
02:35:23,560 --> 02:35:27,320
Speaker 15: Very fat protected by the sky which is full of

2807
02:35:27,760 --> 02:35:29,400
Speaker 15: planes bombing them.

2808
02:35:29,680 --> 02:35:31,880
Speaker 7: Yeah. Yeah, and every time you look up you wonder

2809
02:35:31,920 --> 02:35:34,080
Speaker 7: what that is and it's this still time, or it's

2810
02:35:34,080 --> 02:35:38,000
Speaker 7: just so on. So I think one thing people are

2811
02:35:38,000 --> 02:35:43,640
Speaker 7: really struggling with is like overload of information missed information, right,

2812
02:35:45,640 --> 02:35:48,440
Speaker 7: just some of the worst pieces I've ever seen in

2813
02:35:48,520 --> 02:35:53,000
Speaker 7: opinion pieces, things center on social media, which are like

2814
02:35:53,040 --> 02:35:58,040
Speaker 7: it seems that we've returned to like peak aslamophobic rhetoric

2815
02:35:58,120 --> 02:36:01,959
Speaker 7: of like September twelve, two thousand and one, and we've

2816
02:36:02,040 --> 02:36:05,880
Speaker 7: learned absolutely nothing from twenty years of killing and dying.

2817
02:36:06,680 --> 02:36:10,160
Speaker 7: So I wonder where you would recommend if there are

2818
02:36:10,200 --> 02:36:12,760
Speaker 7: members of your syndicate or other places where people can

2819
02:36:12,840 --> 02:36:18,080
Speaker 7: find reliable and for reporting, which is you know, fact checked,

2820
02:36:18,160 --> 02:36:20,400
Speaker 7: which is not overloading them with you know, like if

2821
02:36:20,600 --> 02:36:22,320
Speaker 7: you go on Twitter to try and find your information

2822
02:36:22,360 --> 02:36:23,680
Speaker 7: at the minute, you're just going to get into an

2823
02:36:23,760 --> 02:36:25,800
Speaker 7: argument with someone who has the worst opinions in the world,

2824
02:36:26,200 --> 02:36:29,200
Speaker 7: and it's not good and it can dissuade you from

2825
02:36:29,280 --> 02:36:31,560
Speaker 7: taking action in the ways that you've mentioned which are

2826
02:36:31,560 --> 02:36:34,440
Speaker 7: actually useful. So is there a place you'd suggest people

2827
02:36:34,520 --> 02:36:39,080
Speaker 7: look for information outlets or individuals they could follow.

2828
02:36:41,200 --> 02:36:45,000
Speaker 15: Well, who wants to know the truth will be will

2829
02:36:45,000 --> 02:36:50,880
Speaker 15: find it. You know, the media is always any media outlet,

2830
02:36:50,959 --> 02:36:55,640
Speaker 15: it has its it has its mandate and vision and

2831
02:36:55,680 --> 02:36:59,080
Speaker 15: so on. So I just advise everyone when you will

2832
02:36:59,200 --> 02:37:02,400
Speaker 15: go for any media outlets, just try to read about

2833
02:37:02,840 --> 02:37:07,440
Speaker 15: what's what's its mandate, who's they are related to, who's

2834
02:37:07,640 --> 02:37:12,520
Speaker 15: they are supporting, and so on, so to know from

2835
02:37:12,600 --> 02:37:15,720
Speaker 15: which perspective you will know the truth. I can't tell

2836
02:37:15,760 --> 02:37:20,480
Speaker 15: now the names of outlets because it's not me who

2837
02:37:20,520 --> 02:37:25,360
Speaker 15: to decide who's who's the right one. As you know,

2838
02:37:25,440 --> 02:37:28,959
Speaker 15: I am. I work in a syndicate which is like

2839
02:37:29,040 --> 02:37:32,360
Speaker 15: a union, which is for all journalists with all foods,

2840
02:37:32,480 --> 02:37:35,880
Speaker 15: all at outlets, so they are all our members.

2841
02:37:36,080 --> 02:37:39,360
Speaker 7: So yeah, yeah, I think that's good advice so that

2842
02:37:39,400 --> 02:37:42,680
Speaker 7: people can take more. It's it's good advice that people

2843
02:37:42,720 --> 02:37:44,920
Speaker 7: can take more broadly, because I think people are completely

2844
02:37:45,000 --> 02:37:51,480
Speaker 7: unaware the ownership of some outlets that mandate there perceived biases.

2845
02:37:52,000 --> 02:37:55,600
Speaker 15: Yes, try to read about them, not only the new

2846
02:37:56,120 --> 02:38:00,760
Speaker 15: not the news itself, but try to see about this outlets,

2847
02:38:00,840 --> 02:38:05,240
Speaker 15: about this establishment, how it's working, what their objectives, how

2848
02:38:05,280 --> 02:38:08,600
Speaker 15: do they work, and what are their connections and so on,

2849
02:38:08,959 --> 02:38:12,520
Speaker 15: so you will know which kind of news they are

2850
02:38:12,560 --> 02:38:17,680
Speaker 15: covering and how do they cover it. Yes, this is

2851
02:38:17,720 --> 02:38:20,920
Speaker 15: what I can say for us as Telisinia Journalists Syndicate.

2852
02:38:21,000 --> 02:38:23,879
Speaker 15: We try now to report about journalists because this is

2853
02:38:23,920 --> 02:38:26,920
Speaker 15: our manda, this is our work to tell about what's

2854
02:38:26,959 --> 02:38:30,959
Speaker 15: going for our members, to try to get any protection

2855
02:38:31,120 --> 02:38:35,879
Speaker 15: for them. Actually were in this very hard condition. But

2856
02:38:36,000 --> 02:38:41,600
Speaker 15: we tried, through our friends, through our relations, through our supporters,

2857
02:38:42,080 --> 02:38:46,920
Speaker 15: through our memberships and so on, to have some international

2858
02:38:46,959 --> 02:38:51,720
Speaker 15: support for them through information, through like a flow of

2859
02:38:51,800 --> 02:38:55,640
Speaker 15: information telling what's going on, how many journalists have been killed,

2860
02:38:55,680 --> 02:38:58,880
Speaker 15: how many journals are displaced, how many and so on,

2861
02:38:58,959 --> 02:39:01,720
Speaker 15: So we try to give them those that are not.

2862
02:39:03,000 --> 02:39:05,840
Speaker 15: As I already told you, it's really a hard job

2863
02:39:05,879 --> 02:39:08,400
Speaker 15: that we are going we are doing now. It's getting

2864
02:39:08,400 --> 02:39:10,880
Speaker 15: more and more difficult. We are trying to cope, trying

2865
02:39:10,920 --> 02:39:14,240
Speaker 15: to develop new tools to cope with this hard, very

2866
02:39:14,240 --> 02:39:20,000
Speaker 15: hard situation. But we try our maximum to be honest,

2867
02:39:20,480 --> 02:39:24,440
Speaker 15: to get very real and true information, not to get

2868
02:39:24,480 --> 02:39:30,480
Speaker 15: any misleading information. There's a flow of misleading information. Even

2869
02:39:30,520 --> 02:39:33,640
Speaker 15: we hear about many journalists that they are killed, but

2870
02:39:33,920 --> 02:39:36,320
Speaker 15: when we try to make sure that we found that

2871
02:39:36,360 --> 02:39:38,959
Speaker 15: they are not journalists. We don't get them put them

2872
02:39:39,000 --> 02:39:42,240
Speaker 15: in our lists. We try to investigate as much as

2873
02:39:42,240 --> 02:39:45,600
Speaker 15: we can, so to put our lists to be limited

2874
02:39:45,680 --> 02:39:49,199
Speaker 15: to journalists, to our members, to the people who work

2875
02:39:49,280 --> 02:39:52,039
Speaker 15: with us, with our within, our man dead and so on,

2876
02:39:52,400 --> 02:39:57,720
Speaker 15: so to be credible source of information.

2877
02:39:58,360 --> 02:40:01,760
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think it's very important. I so, I don't

2878
02:40:01,800 --> 02:40:03,440
Speaker 7: know if you guys who shared it. I sure a

2879
02:40:03,520 --> 02:40:06,120
Speaker 7: video early on. It was when I was still in

2880
02:40:06,200 --> 02:40:09,279
Speaker 7: Syrian Curdistan, but we were watching it of a funeral

2881
02:40:09,320 --> 02:40:12,680
Speaker 7: of three journalists who have been killed. Yeah, and like

2882
02:40:13,120 --> 02:40:15,560
Speaker 7: someone was saying at the funeral that they was speaking

2883
02:40:15,560 --> 02:40:17,760
Speaker 7: and someone else will pick up his camera and like

2884
02:40:17,879 --> 02:40:21,680
Speaker 7: keep documenting things, which really was very emotional for me

2885
02:40:21,720 --> 02:40:25,640
Speaker 7: and my friends. Yeah, it was really sad, but yes

2886
02:40:25,680 --> 02:40:29,879
Speaker 7: it is. I believe it's just you know, that's the

2887
02:40:29,920 --> 02:40:32,480
Speaker 7: thing that I do. And I see people, you know,

2888
02:40:32,640 --> 02:40:35,600
Speaker 7: dressed like me. People. I know it's been very of

2889
02:40:35,720 --> 02:40:39,520
Speaker 7: your coverage of that has been very emotionally challenging for me,

2890
02:40:39,600 --> 02:40:44,240
Speaker 7: But it should be emotionally challenging. It's terrible, but I

2891
02:40:44,240 --> 02:40:47,240
Speaker 7: think people should definitely tune into it if they can.

2892
02:40:47,360 --> 02:40:49,640
Speaker 7: I wonder are they're like social media accounts that the

2893
02:40:49,680 --> 02:40:51,320
Speaker 7: PJS has that people can follow.

2894
02:40:52,520 --> 02:40:53,280
Speaker 5: Yes, we have.

2895
02:40:54,879 --> 02:40:59,959
Speaker 15: Facebook page. It's on Facebook. Yes, it's a place senior

2896
02:41:00,040 --> 02:41:05,040
Speaker 15: and journalists syndicats. Yeah, just and we try to download

2897
02:41:05,520 --> 02:41:08,760
Speaker 15: all our news on it. Also we have our website

2898
02:41:08,760 --> 02:41:13,240
Speaker 15: which is www dot PJS dot ps. Also you can

2899
02:41:13,320 --> 02:41:16,440
Speaker 15: find some news statements, updates and so on.

2900
02:41:17,040 --> 02:41:20,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's great, and I encourage people to follow that

2901
02:41:20,520 --> 02:41:24,000
Speaker 7: they're able to. I wonder, really, is there anything else

2902
02:41:24,200 --> 02:41:27,240
Speaker 7: you think that people are like anything that's been missing

2903
02:41:27,280 --> 02:41:29,200
Speaker 7: from the media narrative that you'd like people to know

2904
02:41:29,440 --> 02:41:32,680
Speaker 7: about the situation now in Palestine, or like the situation

2905
02:41:33,280 --> 02:41:36,400
Speaker 7: more broadly that hasn't been reported on as much as

2906
02:41:36,440 --> 02:41:39,480
Speaker 7: it should be. Yeah.

2907
02:41:39,600 --> 02:41:43,080
Speaker 15: Yeah, I just want to add something about besides what's

2908
02:41:43,080 --> 02:41:47,040
Speaker 15: going on, and because even a journalists in the West Bank,

2909
02:41:47,280 --> 02:41:53,600
Speaker 15: even in Palestinian journalists in Israel are facing a lot

2910
02:41:53,720 --> 02:41:59,200
Speaker 15: of threats, facing a lot of problems. There is a

2911
02:41:59,440 --> 02:42:03,879
Speaker 15: massive a campaign of arrests. So up to now one thousand,

2912
02:42:04,120 --> 02:42:08,640
Speaker 15: in three days, one thousand persons have been arrested. We're

2913
02:42:08,680 --> 02:42:13,800
Speaker 15: trying to find the number of journalists which is I'm

2914
02:42:13,840 --> 02:42:16,400
Speaker 15: not sure about it, but I can't give you the figure.

2915
02:42:16,560 --> 02:42:18,640
Speaker 15: As I told you, because of the big number, we're

2916
02:42:18,640 --> 02:42:23,520
Speaker 15: trying to make sure who are the journalists, But a

2917
02:42:23,560 --> 02:42:30,400
Speaker 15: massive arrests campaign is taking place now. Also, journalists are

2918
02:42:30,440 --> 02:42:34,160
Speaker 15: facing a lot of threats about a lot of violations

2919
02:42:35,240 --> 02:42:39,640
Speaker 15: while covering many times that are prevented from coverage. They

2920
02:42:39,680 --> 02:42:44,440
Speaker 15: are threatened by weapons, They are threatened sometimes by the settlers,

2921
02:42:44,959 --> 02:42:51,160
Speaker 15: armed settlers, even not the army, while covering many of them. Also,

2922
02:42:51,280 --> 02:42:57,039
Speaker 15: they are subject to incitement through social media pages like

2923
02:42:58,280 --> 02:43:01,640
Speaker 15: spreading their photo or there and so to make a

2924
02:43:01,720 --> 02:43:05,640
Speaker 15: kind of excitement how to kill them or to get

2925
02:43:05,720 --> 02:43:08,920
Speaker 15: rid of them and so on. So also the journalists

2926
02:43:08,959 --> 02:43:14,119
Speaker 15: are facing a very hard time now. Yeah, they are

2927
02:43:14,240 --> 02:43:15,160
Speaker 15: under the threat.

2928
02:43:15,320 --> 02:43:21,320
Speaker 7: Yeah damn. Yeah, that's terrible and completely unacceptable. So yeah,

2929
02:43:21,320 --> 02:43:23,440
Speaker 7: I'm glad you shared that, And I think it's important

2930
02:43:23,480 --> 02:43:26,760
Speaker 7: that people follow this and do whatever they can to help,

2931
02:43:27,800 --> 02:43:30,320
Speaker 7: do whatever they can to to I don't know, to

2932
02:43:30,360 --> 02:43:32,720
Speaker 7: encourage people to stop bombing other people, Like it's never

2933
02:43:33,560 --> 02:43:36,920
Speaker 7: a good situation. People are bombing children and hopefully it

2934
02:43:36,959 --> 02:43:39,480
Speaker 7: comes to an end. They get it. I don't know.

2935
02:43:39,480 --> 02:43:44,120
Speaker 7: I've never seen this much outgoing support for Palestine the

2936
02:43:44,200 --> 02:43:46,840
Speaker 7: United States. But I've also you know, this is an

2937
02:43:46,879 --> 02:43:54,600
Speaker 7: unprecedented act of again war crimes, so delicated's it's very

2938
02:43:54,640 --> 02:43:55,959
Speaker 7: hard to see where this is going.

2939
02:43:56,000 --> 02:43:59,880
Speaker 15: I suppose, Yes, we believe that the voice is rich,

2940
02:44:01,200 --> 02:44:04,680
Speaker 15: maybe a little by not that fast that that's easy,

2941
02:44:04,760 --> 02:44:08,600
Speaker 15: because it's not easy. But we believe in every person

2942
02:44:08,800 --> 02:44:12,760
Speaker 15: who thinks and and say no, this is inhuman I

2943
02:44:12,800 --> 02:44:15,000
Speaker 15: should not I should be with those people who are

2944
02:44:15,080 --> 02:44:23,520
Speaker 15: under attack, who are under under Yeah, a lot of

2945
02:44:23,800 --> 02:44:27,240
Speaker 15: hard life. Yeah, it's a hard life, a lot of oppress.

2946
02:44:27,720 --> 02:44:30,840
Speaker 15: So yeah, when we see the as aduld, when we

2947
02:44:30,879 --> 02:44:34,120
Speaker 15: see the demonstrations, it really gives us power. It really

2948
02:44:34,240 --> 02:44:37,360
Speaker 15: gives us that we have right to life. You know,

2949
02:44:37,480 --> 02:44:40,280
Speaker 15: this is a minimum right that we need people to

2950
02:44:40,320 --> 02:44:42,200
Speaker 15: tell us, Yes, you have a right to life.

2951
02:44:43,080 --> 02:44:44,959
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that's it's nice to hear.

2952
02:44:45,040 --> 02:44:45,240
Speaker 12: You know.

2953
02:44:45,440 --> 02:44:48,320
Speaker 7: It's like if you can feel that you're helping, even

2954
02:44:48,440 --> 02:44:51,920
Speaker 7: just helping people, feel like a little bit, you know, elevated,

2955
02:44:51,920 --> 02:44:54,480
Speaker 7: a little bit better, a little bit less despairing, because

2956
02:44:54,480 --> 02:44:56,040
Speaker 7: I can see how it would be very easy if

2957
02:44:56,080 --> 02:45:00,160
Speaker 7: you're stuck in guys to feel like the world's and

2958
02:45:00,240 --> 02:45:03,360
Speaker 7: in you. Because it has to a large degree, right,

2959
02:45:03,560 --> 02:45:07,440
Speaker 7: the words allowed this to happen and it's you know,

2960
02:45:07,480 --> 02:45:11,800
Speaker 7: it's not it's American bombs, American plaints dropping bombs.

2961
02:45:12,280 --> 02:45:12,800
Speaker 15: Fortunately.

2962
02:45:14,520 --> 02:45:16,879
Speaker 7: Yeah, so I think that's really good to hear. It's

2963
02:45:16,920 --> 02:45:21,160
Speaker 7: good to hear that that has made some difference. Thank

2964
02:45:21,240 --> 02:45:22,920
Speaker 7: you so much for giving us some of your time.

2965
02:45:23,080 --> 02:45:26,560
Speaker 15: I know it's thank you, Jams, thank you for having

2966
02:45:26,600 --> 02:45:30,160
Speaker 15: me with you. I wish you all good luck. Thank you,

2967
02:45:30,240 --> 02:45:35,520
Speaker 15: Thank you all who listeners, listeners to this podcast. I

2968
02:45:35,560 --> 02:45:39,560
Speaker 15: hope that I was able to give you an overview

2969
02:45:39,600 --> 02:45:44,080
Speaker 15: of what's going on. And let's pray that this violence

2970
02:45:44,080 --> 02:45:45,240
Speaker 15: will end very soon.

2971
02:45:45,760 --> 02:45:48,360
Speaker 7: Yes, yeah, yeah, indeed, let's thank you very much. I

2972
02:45:48,440 --> 02:45:48,920
Speaker 7: was wonderful.

2973
02:45:49,040 --> 02:45:49,360
Speaker 16: Thank you.

2974
02:46:07,080 --> 02:46:11,320
Speaker 5: It's spoky week. It can happen here. It's spooky week,

2975
02:46:11,360 --> 02:46:15,080
Speaker 5: the week where things are spooky. I'm your host, Mio Wong,

2976
02:46:15,240 --> 02:46:16,439
Speaker 5: and with me is Garrison.

2977
02:46:17,040 --> 02:46:23,920
Speaker 10: Hello, and today all right, all right.

2978
02:46:23,840 --> 02:46:27,520
Speaker 5: We've gotten, we've gotten, we've gotten the preliminary spooky out

2979
02:46:28,800 --> 02:46:31,360
Speaker 5: and so today we're gonna be talking about one of

2980
02:46:31,360 --> 02:46:34,039
Speaker 5: the sort of key elements of Halloween, and that is

2981
02:46:34,160 --> 02:46:37,959
Speaker 5: chocolate and so on. On a very basic level, we're

2982
02:46:37,959 --> 02:46:42,640
Speaker 5: going to ask what is chocolate? And the answer and

2983
02:46:42,720 --> 02:46:44,520
Speaker 5: it pains me to say this as someone who really

2984
02:46:44,520 --> 02:46:49,080
Speaker 5: loves chocolate is really really bleak. Yeah, but before we

2985
02:46:49,120 --> 02:46:54,560
Speaker 5: get into exactly how bleak it is, uh, we're gonna

2986
02:46:55,480 --> 02:47:00,240
Speaker 5: look at sort of the early history of chocolate. So

2987
02:47:00,240 --> 02:47:03,680
Speaker 5: so okay, there's there's a lot of disagreement about exactly

2988
02:47:03,720 --> 02:47:06,320
Speaker 5: how old chocolate is. I've seen sources that say three

2989
02:47:06,360 --> 02:47:10,680
Speaker 5: thousand BC. I've seen sources that say seventeen hundred BC.

2990
02:47:10,800 --> 02:47:12,920
Speaker 5: The sevente hundred b C is the one that's pretty consistent.

2991
02:47:13,240 --> 02:47:18,000
Speaker 5: It seems like the Olmecs had something like chocolate. That's it.

2992
02:47:18,000 --> 02:47:20,760
Speaker 5: It's a sort of bitter drink that they sometimes put

2993
02:47:20,840 --> 02:47:23,320
Speaker 5: vanilla or red pepper in. Yeah, it was, it was.

2994
02:47:23,360 --> 02:47:23,600
Speaker 11: It was.

2995
02:47:23,680 --> 02:47:27,039
Speaker 10: It was like a bitter slurry that you from what

2996
02:47:27,160 --> 02:47:30,160
Speaker 10: I hear, not very enjoyable, but it got you like

2997
02:47:31,160 --> 02:47:34,720
Speaker 10: really high, like not high like like like weed, but

2998
02:47:34,840 --> 02:47:36,359
Speaker 10: like kind of like cocaine.

2999
02:47:36,400 --> 02:47:36,840
Speaker 11: It was.

3000
02:47:37,000 --> 02:47:39,199
Speaker 10: It was like it was it was a massive stimulant,

3001
02:47:39,560 --> 02:47:42,280
Speaker 10: is yeah, from what I hear about these kind of

3002
02:47:42,320 --> 02:47:44,640
Speaker 10: early gross bitter chocolate slurries.

3003
02:47:45,600 --> 02:47:47,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, And you know, I mean this is the thing

3004
02:47:47,320 --> 02:47:50,760
Speaker 5: that's this is not a regular consumption drink. Basically everyone

3005
02:47:50,800 --> 02:47:53,520
Speaker 5: he uses this and this, and and chocolate is consumed

3006
02:47:53,600 --> 02:47:59,880
Speaker 5: by a bunch of different civilizations like across like most

3007
02:48:00,040 --> 02:48:03,640
Speaker 5: of South America. There's something sort of like the Mayans obviously,

3008
02:48:03,680 --> 02:48:06,120
Speaker 5: the Mayans and the Aztecs too. There's a lot of

3009
02:48:06,120 --> 02:48:09,240
Speaker 5: places where where this is being used, and it's everyone

3010
02:48:09,280 --> 02:48:11,920
Speaker 5: seems to use it for ritual purposes. Yeah, I think

3011
02:48:11,959 --> 02:48:14,879
Speaker 5: at some point the I think it was the the

3012
02:48:14,959 --> 02:48:19,400
Speaker 5: Omes at some point we're doing these like they were

3013
02:48:19,440 --> 02:48:24,359
Speaker 5: making fermented alcohol out of so so normally with with chocolate,

3014
02:48:24,400 --> 02:48:26,760
Speaker 5: you're using like the cocoa beans, right, but there's like

3015
02:48:26,800 --> 02:48:29,120
Speaker 5: a flesh and the flute fruit around the beans, and

3016
02:48:29,120 --> 02:48:30,840
Speaker 5: they were making like a fermented thing out of that.

3017
02:48:31,480 --> 02:48:33,879
Speaker 5: And I don't know, I leave as an exercise to

3018
02:48:33,920 --> 02:48:36,840
Speaker 5: the reader with you count that as chocolate. But the

3019
02:48:36,920 --> 02:48:40,400
Speaker 5: sort of conventional story goes okay. So like several thousand

3020
02:48:40,440 --> 02:48:42,760
Speaker 5: years after the Olmes, the Assex and the Mayans using

3021
02:48:42,800 --> 02:48:46,480
Speaker 5: it for ritual purposes, and the story basically is okay.

3022
02:48:46,560 --> 02:48:51,600
Speaker 5: So Herman Cortes drinks chocolate with stick king Maktazuma. Cortes goes,

3023
02:48:51,720 --> 02:48:53,720
Speaker 5: this is bitter as shit and sucks ass, but he

3024
02:48:53,720 --> 02:48:57,879
Speaker 5: brings it back to Europe anyways, and in Europe they

3025
02:48:57,879 --> 02:48:59,640
Speaker 5: mix it with sugar and also with honey, but mostly

3026
02:48:59,680 --> 02:49:04,040
Speaker 5: with sugar, and it becomes you know, it becomes very

3027
02:49:04,160 --> 02:49:06,920
Speaker 5: very popular drinking Europe. And at some point, this is

3028
02:49:06,959 --> 02:49:09,959
Speaker 5: like the eighteen forty so like like takes some about

3029
02:49:10,120 --> 02:49:13,760
Speaker 5: like three hundred years to figure out how to make

3030
02:49:13,800 --> 02:49:16,959
Speaker 5: cocoa powder. But once you have cocoa powder, you can

3031
02:49:17,320 --> 02:49:19,600
Speaker 5: it's not it seems to be bitter like it in

3032
02:49:19,640 --> 02:49:23,279
Speaker 5: the in the way that it sort of is naturally.

3033
02:49:23,640 --> 02:49:27,160
Speaker 10: You can you can process it with like like like

3034
02:49:27,520 --> 02:49:32,440
Speaker 10: basic solutions, which which neutralizes some of the acidic and

3035
02:49:32,480 --> 02:49:35,360
Speaker 10: bitter bitter tastes, which is why you should always buy

3036
02:49:35,400 --> 02:49:37,959
Speaker 10: a Dutch process cocoa powder, which is unfortunately hard to

3037
02:49:38,040 --> 02:49:41,080
Speaker 10: find these days. But it is, it is, it is,

3038
02:49:41,160 --> 02:49:41,840
Speaker 10: it is the shit.

3039
02:49:43,120 --> 02:49:45,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's that's that's actually yeah, so the that's that's

3040
02:49:45,879 --> 02:49:48,800
Speaker 5: Dutch cocoa. And then twenty years later someone figures out

3041
02:49:48,800 --> 02:49:50,400
Speaker 5: how to make that into a chocolate bar and you know,

3042
02:49:50,440 --> 02:49:53,840
Speaker 5: sort of a law, you have chocolate. Now, the conventional

3043
02:49:53,879 --> 02:49:57,480
Speaker 5: histories are missing something very very important, which is something

3044
02:49:57,480 --> 02:50:02,040
Speaker 5: that defined has defined the production of chocolate since Europeans

3045
02:50:02,080 --> 02:50:04,320
Speaker 5: got a hold of it. And continues to define it today.

3046
02:50:04,800 --> 02:50:10,680
Speaker 5: And that thing is slavery. Yeah, yes, yeah, And you

3047
02:50:10,720 --> 02:50:13,760
Speaker 5: know this is slavery is a very sort of important

3048
02:50:13,800 --> 02:50:16,120
Speaker 5: part of the history of chocolate because slavery is what

3049
02:50:16,280 --> 02:50:19,600
Speaker 5: transforms the older ritual chocolate used by a bunch of

3050
02:50:19,600 --> 02:50:23,520
Speaker 5: different indigenous societies for several thousand years, into modern chocolate.

3051
02:50:24,080 --> 02:50:25,880
Speaker 5: And this is this is the point that I want

3052
02:50:25,879 --> 02:50:29,320
Speaker 5: to make because most most histories of chocolate tend you know,

3053
02:50:29,320 --> 02:50:31,680
Speaker 5: when they're trying to find the origin of modern chocolate,

3054
02:50:31,680 --> 02:50:34,640
Speaker 5: they go, oh, it's chocolate bar. And I think they're wrong.

3055
02:50:34,720 --> 02:50:38,120
Speaker 5: I think they're very wrong. I think the distinct European

3056
02:50:38,160 --> 02:50:42,160
Speaker 5: innovation of chocolate is to add sugar to it. Yes,

3057
02:50:42,240 --> 02:50:46,720
Speaker 5: and this raises the very bleak question where does sugar

3058
02:50:46,800 --> 02:50:51,199
Speaker 5: come from? And the answer, of course is slavery. Sugar

3059
02:50:51,320 --> 02:50:53,920
Speaker 5: is one of the primary crops of slave economies in

3060
02:50:54,000 --> 02:50:56,840
Speaker 5: both the colonies and the West Indies. It is one

3061
02:50:56,840 --> 02:50:58,920
Speaker 5: of the key elements of the so called triangle trade

3062
02:50:58,959 --> 02:51:00,600
Speaker 5: where you know, you may have probably you have learned

3063
02:51:00,600 --> 02:51:03,720
Speaker 5: this in school, but you know, for people, for people

3064
02:51:03,720 --> 02:51:05,400
Speaker 5: who've been out of school for a long time. So

3065
02:51:05,440 --> 02:51:08,720
Speaker 5: the triangle trade is Europe since manufacturer goes to Africa,

3066
02:51:08,800 --> 02:51:11,400
Speaker 5: it trades that fruit enslaved people and slave people are

3067
02:51:11,440 --> 02:51:15,440
Speaker 5: taken from Africa to the colonies and sometimes to America,

3068
02:51:15,560 --> 02:51:19,400
Speaker 5: sometimes to the colonies in the West Indies. Uh. And

3069
02:51:19,440 --> 02:51:22,119
Speaker 5: then they take you know, the products of slavery from

3070
02:51:22,120 --> 02:51:27,720
Speaker 5: plantations back to Europe. And that's you know, rice, indigo, tobacco, cotton, molasses, rum,

3071
02:51:27,760 --> 02:51:31,320
Speaker 5: and critically sugar back to Europe. Actould wait did did

3072
02:51:31,360 --> 02:51:33,760
Speaker 5: they Did they teach you the triangle trade? Yeah?

3073
02:51:33,840 --> 02:51:38,280
Speaker 10: Yes, I mean I I I did learn. My Christian

3074
02:51:38,320 --> 02:51:41,359
Speaker 10: Homescholing curriculum wasn't the best, but.

3075
02:51:41,320 --> 02:51:42,640
Speaker 5: We did, we did.

3076
02:51:42,879 --> 02:51:45,440
Speaker 10: We did cover some basic things.

3077
02:51:46,480 --> 02:51:49,920
Speaker 5: It's interesting because the triangle trade as a model, like

3078
02:51:50,080 --> 02:51:52,360
Speaker 5: isn't that old, even though even though like this is

3079
02:51:52,360 --> 02:51:55,480
Speaker 5: the way that we all understand, like Tyler sort of

3080
02:51:55,560 --> 02:51:59,240
Speaker 5: colonial trade work, it's a kind of recent thing. Yeah.

3081
02:51:59,280 --> 02:52:01,400
Speaker 5: So sugar, sugar is a very very key part of

3082
02:52:01,400 --> 02:52:04,000
Speaker 5: this entire thing. And there's a very very famous this

3083
02:52:04,120 --> 02:52:08,120
Speaker 5: sort of classic study of sugar and slavery is Sydney W.

3084
02:52:08,320 --> 02:52:11,320
Speaker 5: Mitz's Sweetness and Power, which is a fundamental tax and

3085
02:52:11,400 --> 02:52:14,959
Speaker 5: a lot of sort of a lot of the sort

3086
02:52:14,959 --> 02:52:17,959
Speaker 5: of fields around the study of slavery, and one of

3087
02:52:18,000 --> 02:52:21,680
Speaker 5: his arguments is that the British industrial proletariat is fueled

3088
02:52:21,680 --> 02:52:24,680
Speaker 5: by slave sugar because the sugar is a stimulant that

3089
02:52:24,760 --> 02:52:26,640
Speaker 5: you know, they're putting it in tea, which another stimulant.

3090
02:52:26,640 --> 02:52:28,400
Speaker 5: They're putting it in whatever they drink, and this is

3091
02:52:28,440 --> 02:52:32,240
Speaker 5: a thing that allows them to keep working for longer

3092
02:52:32,280 --> 02:52:33,720
Speaker 5: than they otherwise would have been able to.

3093
02:52:34,280 --> 02:52:37,160
Speaker 10: Yeah, and this also was the origin of Britain's probably

3094
02:52:37,240 --> 02:52:39,160
Speaker 10: largest cultural trait, bad teeth.

3095
02:52:44,480 --> 02:52:44,800
Speaker 7: Yeah.

3096
02:52:44,840 --> 02:52:46,240
Speaker 5: And you know, so, so this is this is this

3097
02:52:46,280 --> 02:52:50,160
Speaker 5: is a many aspects of British culture I've are descended

3098
02:52:50,200 --> 02:52:56,360
Speaker 5: from from slavery and you know, but but the other,

3099
02:52:56,440 --> 02:52:58,480
Speaker 5: the other important thing for our story is that sugar

3100
02:52:58,640 --> 02:53:02,600
Speaker 5: is what makes chocolate sort of palatable to Europeans. And

3101
02:53:02,600 --> 02:53:05,440
Speaker 5: and this isn't a sort of interesting thing that Europeans do.

3102
02:53:07,280 --> 02:53:09,640
Speaker 5: You know, they do this with tobacco too. You haven't

3103
02:53:09,720 --> 02:53:11,879
Speaker 5: you have something that you're only supposed to use in

3104
02:53:11,920 --> 02:53:15,400
Speaker 5: fairly small amounts for ritual purposes, right, And the Europeans

3105
02:53:15,400 --> 02:53:17,960
Speaker 5: are like, okay, but what if we purified the shit

3106
02:53:18,000 --> 02:53:19,959
Speaker 5: out of it and they just ate it literally every day?

3107
02:53:20,360 --> 02:53:25,440
Speaker 10: Yeah, have you ever tried like unsweetened on like chocolate liquor.

3108
02:53:26,320 --> 02:53:29,560
Speaker 5: Fucking sucks. I hate it. It's not good.

3109
02:53:30,959 --> 02:53:33,680
Speaker 10: You can certainly nibble, it can be a fun novelty

3110
02:53:33,720 --> 02:53:35,320
Speaker 10: to nibble, but you certainly wouldn't want to eat like

3111
02:53:35,360 --> 02:53:36,200
Speaker 10: a whole bar of it.

3112
02:53:36,800 --> 02:53:40,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's some real hope boy. Yeah. So, like

3113
02:53:40,680 --> 02:53:42,360
Speaker 5: I mean, it makes sense that they added sugar to it.

3114
02:53:42,440 --> 02:53:46,240
Speaker 5: But the consequence of this is that we can ask

3115
02:53:46,360 --> 02:53:48,800
Speaker 5: we can finally ask the question right now, now, now

3116
02:53:48,800 --> 02:53:51,040
Speaker 5: that it's been transformed by sugar into this object, a

3117
02:53:51,080 --> 02:53:54,120
Speaker 5: sort of popular consumption, we can ask the question what

3118
02:53:54,400 --> 02:53:58,000
Speaker 5: is chocolate? And the answer is that chocolate is colonialism

3119
02:53:58,000 --> 02:54:00,320
Speaker 5: plus slavery. It is a fusion of cocoa, which is

3120
02:54:00,320 --> 02:54:02,440
Speaker 5: an indigenous ritual drink sees is a part of the

3121
02:54:02,480 --> 02:54:05,760
Speaker 5: wages of colonialism by the European empires, and sugar a

3122
02:54:05,800 --> 02:54:10,160
Speaker 5: slave crop that drove the colonial prontation economy. And you know,

3123
02:54:10,040 --> 02:54:12,760
Speaker 5: you might say me, you know you're being harsh here, right,

3124
02:54:12,920 --> 02:54:15,280
Speaker 5: even if we accept your argument about chocolate and the

3125
02:54:15,320 --> 02:54:21,279
Speaker 5: sixteen hundred, surely surely that's not sure now, wasn't wasn't.

3126
02:54:21,240 --> 02:54:24,280
Speaker 10: Wasn't slavery abolished in the eighteen hundreds, and now I assume,

3127
02:54:25,000 --> 02:54:29,320
Speaker 10: I assume Nesle's barving practices are totally above board.

3128
02:54:29,680 --> 02:54:32,039
Speaker 5: See, and this is I think the interesting part of

3129
02:54:32,080 --> 02:54:35,520
Speaker 5: the story is gare like our readers is assuming a

3130
02:54:35,560 --> 02:54:37,880
Speaker 5: thing I'm about to launch into here is the Mars

3131
02:54:37,959 --> 02:54:41,160
Speaker 5: Nestley Child slavery lawsuit, and we will because that is

3132
02:54:41,160 --> 02:54:46,400
Speaker 5: a critical elements of slavery and chocolate production. But there

3133
02:54:46,440 --> 02:54:51,760
Speaker 5: is also still slavery and sugar production capitalism. And not

3134
02:54:51,840 --> 02:54:54,200
Speaker 5: only is your slavery and sugar production, there is slavery

3135
02:54:54,240 --> 02:54:56,680
Speaker 5: in sugar production in the exact same places there were

3136
02:54:56,720 --> 02:55:00,680
Speaker 5: slavery and sugar production five hundred years ago. And this

3137
02:55:00,760 --> 02:55:02,680
Speaker 5: is one of the sort of stunning things about you know,

3138
02:55:02,800 --> 02:55:07,360
Speaker 5: the miss of capitalism, right, which is that, okay, capitalism

3139
02:55:07,400 --> 02:55:10,400
Speaker 5: has had four hundred you know, I'm gonna give them

3140
02:55:10,440 --> 02:55:14,000
Speaker 5: a bit of credit and be like, Okay, I don't know,

3141
02:55:14,240 --> 02:55:17,160
Speaker 5: like I I'm gonna give capitalism a little bit of

3142
02:55:17,200 --> 02:55:19,480
Speaker 5: credit and give it only with being responsible for four

3143
02:55:19,600 --> 02:55:21,440
Speaker 5: hundred years of this and not five hundred years of this,

3144
02:55:22,120 --> 02:55:25,160
Speaker 5: because you know, whatever complicated arguments about whether the capitalist

3145
02:55:25,160 --> 02:55:27,160
Speaker 5: transition is in the fifteen hundreds to sixteen hundreds. But

3146
02:55:27,840 --> 02:55:30,840
Speaker 5: you know, they have had four hundred years to solve

3147
02:55:30,879 --> 02:55:34,360
Speaker 5: the problem of slavery on Hispaniola. Has it done that?

3148
02:55:34,959 --> 02:55:35,039
Speaker 1: No?

3149
02:55:35,600 --> 02:55:38,240
Speaker 5: It is there is still slavery on the island of

3150
02:55:38,240 --> 02:55:42,920
Speaker 5: Fispaniola four hundred years later. Because we're going to be

3151
02:55:42,920 --> 02:55:47,560
Speaker 5: discussing in a second. Still, the best possible thing here

3152
02:55:47,840 --> 02:55:53,400
Speaker 5: is that maybe, and this is it is arguable, maybe

3153
02:55:53,640 --> 02:55:58,039
Speaker 5: last year there stopped being slaves there. Now I don't

3154
02:55:58,040 --> 02:55:59,400
Speaker 5: even think that. I don't think that's true. And we're

3155
02:55:59,400 --> 02:56:03,000
Speaker 5: gonna get into to that, but you know, before before

3156
02:56:03,040 --> 02:56:05,080
Speaker 5: we sort of launch into you know what, like whether

3157
02:56:05,200 --> 02:56:07,240
Speaker 5: or not there are so slaves on checker plantations in

3158
02:56:07,280 --> 02:56:11,520
Speaker 5: the Dominican Republic. If you have had four hundred years

3159
02:56:12,040 --> 02:56:15,039
Speaker 5: to solve a problem and you have not solved it,

3160
02:56:15,640 --> 02:56:17,440
Speaker 5: you are never going to solve it.

3161
02:56:18,120 --> 02:56:22,560
Speaker 10: Hey, hey, let's not let's let's not visionhole ourselves here.

3162
02:56:22,640 --> 02:56:24,080
Speaker 10: There's a lot of things that have been around for

3163
02:56:24,120 --> 02:56:26,400
Speaker 10: four hundred years that ought not to be.

3164
02:56:27,520 --> 02:56:31,800
Speaker 5: That's true. But if you are an economic system and

3165
02:56:31,879 --> 02:56:35,200
Speaker 5: your economic system has been you are supposed to have

3166
02:56:35,440 --> 02:56:37,440
Speaker 5: you are supposed to have dealt with this at least

3167
02:56:37,520 --> 02:56:41,880
Speaker 5: two hundred years ago. But you know, we've arrived here,

3168
02:56:41,920 --> 02:56:43,880
Speaker 5: and it's something we've talked about before in the show

3169
02:56:43,879 --> 02:56:47,000
Speaker 5: at least a bit. We've arrived here at one of

3170
02:56:47,040 --> 02:56:49,600
Speaker 5: the real weaknesses of both sort of liberal and radical

3171
02:56:49,600 --> 02:56:54,440
Speaker 5: accounts of how the capitalist economy works, because both sets

3172
02:56:54,440 --> 02:56:58,560
Speaker 5: of accounts take as their starting point the fact that

3173
02:56:58,600 --> 02:57:01,400
Speaker 5: capitalism is based on free labor, that it's free people

3174
02:57:01,400 --> 02:57:03,600
Speaker 5: who enter into contracts to sell you that their labor,

3175
02:57:03,600 --> 02:57:05,560
Speaker 5: and that forced labor is this sort of like hauled

3176
02:57:05,560 --> 02:57:07,040
Speaker 5: over from older economic systems.

3177
02:57:07,160 --> 02:57:07,240
Speaker 11: No.

3178
02:57:07,360 --> 02:57:09,720
Speaker 10: I actually just saw a thing today on the Dying

3179
02:57:09,959 --> 02:57:13,000
Speaker 10: Remains of Twitter about how capitalism is the only economic

3180
02:57:13,040 --> 02:57:17,280
Speaker 10: system that's not based on exploitation of violence. It's based

3181
02:57:17,320 --> 02:57:18,840
Speaker 10: on free trade between markets.

3182
02:57:19,600 --> 02:57:23,760
Speaker 5: It's like people really believe this shit. It's like I

3183
02:57:24,520 --> 02:57:27,840
Speaker 5: don't know, Like I don't know. So at some point

3184
02:57:27,840 --> 02:57:30,560
Speaker 5: I'm gonna do an episode about really good book whose

3185
02:57:30,640 --> 02:57:32,720
Speaker 5: name I'm forgetting right now because I didn't look this

3186
02:57:32,840 --> 02:57:35,240
Speaker 5: up beforehand. But there's a really good book on these

3187
02:57:35,240 --> 02:57:38,440
Speaker 5: sort of dueling forced labor systems driving the Tea economy

3188
02:57:38,440 --> 02:57:40,960
Speaker 5: in late eighteen hundred, so that there's there's one forced

3189
02:57:41,000 --> 02:57:43,520
Speaker 5: labor system in China and a different forced labor system

3190
02:57:43,560 --> 02:57:45,360
Speaker 5: in India that are both warring in each other to

3191
02:57:45,400 --> 02:57:46,440
Speaker 5: control the tea market.

3192
02:57:46,600 --> 02:57:52,080
Speaker 10: It is certainly interesting how much tea has impacted like geopolitics.

3193
02:57:52,360 --> 02:57:55,000
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, we'll.

3194
02:57:54,120 --> 02:57:57,480
Speaker 10: Do an episode on that one day. Yeah, t is

3195
02:57:57,560 --> 02:58:02,039
Speaker 10: not that great, guys. I'm sorry, it's fine, rips. I

3196
02:58:02,080 --> 02:58:03,920
Speaker 10: would not we just don't have good tea here. I

3197
02:58:03,920 --> 02:58:05,600
Speaker 10: would do as much killing as people have done for

3198
02:58:06,640 --> 02:58:07,640
Speaker 10: It's it's not worth.

3199
02:58:07,520 --> 02:58:09,520
Speaker 5: Killing anyone over the number of people who've been killed

3200
02:58:09,560 --> 02:58:10,199
Speaker 5: over it is.

3201
02:58:11,000 --> 02:58:14,160
Speaker 10: Like in early cra is fine on like a rainy afternoon,

3202
02:58:14,280 --> 02:58:15,119
Speaker 10: but come on.

3203
02:58:15,800 --> 02:58:21,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not. It's not worth like conquering continents for huh.

3204
02:58:21,520 --> 02:58:23,680
Speaker 5: But okay, so we'll back back back to this sort

3205
02:58:23,720 --> 02:58:25,920
Speaker 5: of main plot that is not tea, that is in

3206
02:58:25,959 --> 02:58:28,520
Speaker 5: fact chocolate. So one of the things that we can

3207
02:58:28,560 --> 02:58:30,440
Speaker 5: learn that we learn from this is that, you know,

3208
02:58:30,560 --> 02:58:32,920
Speaker 5: forced labor is not just a holdover. It's been a

3209
02:58:33,000 --> 02:58:35,040
Speaker 5: It's been a central part of capitalism for as long

3210
02:58:35,080 --> 02:58:38,440
Speaker 5: as capitalism has existed, and given its current track record,

3211
02:58:38,480 --> 02:58:40,440
Speaker 5: it will be a part of capitalism for as long

3212
02:58:40,480 --> 02:58:44,760
Speaker 5: as it exists. And you know, so there's always been

3213
02:58:45,000 --> 02:58:47,080
Speaker 5: a racial compoundent to this right and this is like

3214
02:58:47,120 --> 02:58:50,080
Speaker 5: trivially obvious, right, Like, there's a racial component of slavery, Like,

3215
02:58:50,080 --> 02:58:53,360
Speaker 5: holy shit, it's mostly about race. But I think, you know,

3216
02:58:53,920 --> 02:58:55,840
Speaker 5: we can we can expand this a little bit, and

3217
02:58:56,080 --> 02:58:59,200
Speaker 5: it gets you to a some sort of interesting things,

3218
02:58:59,200 --> 02:59:02,120
Speaker 5: which is that race is one of you know, so

3219
02:59:02,160 --> 02:59:04,960
Speaker 5: like obviously capitalism is supposed to be based on wage labor,

3220
02:59:05,400 --> 02:59:08,600
Speaker 5: but race is what mediates your access to wage labor

3221
02:59:08,600 --> 02:59:11,680
Speaker 5: in the first place. So, you know, white, like if

3222
02:59:11,680 --> 02:59:14,240
Speaker 5: you're an American, right like, white Americans have basically always

3223
02:59:14,240 --> 02:59:16,840
Speaker 5: been able to get access to to wage labor, you know,

3224
02:59:16,840 --> 02:59:20,879
Speaker 5: and as shitty as wage labor is, it's it's not

3225
02:59:21,280 --> 02:59:23,680
Speaker 5: as bad as the other things you can get forced into,

3226
02:59:24,320 --> 02:59:26,440
Speaker 5: you know. But yeah, so if you're black, like, you know,

3227
02:59:26,440 --> 02:59:29,240
Speaker 5: you get as successive forms of slavery. If you're indigenous,

3228
02:59:29,440 --> 02:59:32,959
Speaker 5: they tried to enslave you and then either sort of

3229
02:59:33,040 --> 02:59:35,440
Speaker 5: kept doing it or gave up and just killed did

3230
02:59:35,480 --> 02:59:41,560
Speaker 5: the genocide Asian people like who came to this continents

3231
02:59:41,600 --> 02:59:43,680
Speaker 5: and also sort of the West Indies largely get debt

3232
02:59:43,680 --> 02:59:45,240
Speaker 5: pion engine and entered service to you and you know,

3233
02:59:45,400 --> 02:59:46,840
Speaker 5: you can you can sort of work this out, so

3234
02:59:46,879 --> 02:59:49,280
Speaker 5: on and so forth, there's there's different like modes of

3235
02:59:49,400 --> 02:59:52,640
Speaker 5: stuff that are the normal sort of like what you

3236
02:59:52,680 --> 02:59:57,000
Speaker 5: by default have access to if you are ex race, right, yeah,

3237
02:59:57,040 --> 02:59:59,360
Speaker 5: and obviously this, this sort of racial access to wage

3238
02:59:59,400 --> 03:00:01,640
Speaker 5: labor spread across the world. You know, your your access

3239
03:00:01,640 --> 03:00:03,800
Speaker 5: to wage labor is dependent on sort of your subject

3240
03:00:03,800 --> 03:00:06,480
Speaker 5: position as colonizer or colonize as well as you know,

3241
03:00:06,480 --> 03:00:10,039
Speaker 5: you're sort of global and also you're like local racial hierarchies,

3242
03:00:10,480 --> 03:00:13,920
Speaker 5: because oh boy, can that shit be really fucked up.

3243
03:00:14,959 --> 03:00:19,160
Speaker 5: But the upshot of this is that many of the

3244
03:00:19,200 --> 03:00:23,000
Speaker 5: descendants of enslaved Haitian people are still effectively enslaved today

3245
03:00:23,000 --> 03:00:27,240
Speaker 5: on sugar plantations than making republic. And so we're gonna

3246
03:00:27,240 --> 03:00:32,200
Speaker 5: we're gonna tell that story. But first we'd.

3247
03:00:31,879 --> 03:00:34,840
Speaker 10: Oh, god, do you know what doesn't know?

3248
03:00:35,320 --> 03:00:38,120
Speaker 5: I cannot guarantee that our products and services are slave

3249
03:00:38,160 --> 03:00:39,640
Speaker 5: free like I wish I could.

3250
03:00:39,920 --> 03:00:45,440
Speaker 10: But well, do you know what is also here for

3251
03:00:45,480 --> 03:00:51,680
Speaker 10: a spooky time this Halloween? That's right, these products and services. Okay,

3252
03:00:51,760 --> 03:00:55,480
Speaker 10: we are back. I'm drinking my not mocha coffee, drinking

3253
03:00:55,520 --> 03:01:01,920
Speaker 10: my regular unsweetened coffees. Therefore totally thought, no, yeah, yeah, I'm.

3254
03:01:02,480 --> 03:01:05,520
Speaker 5: Everything's nothing bad. Nothing bad has ever happened in the

3255
03:01:05,560 --> 03:01:06,480
Speaker 5: history of coffee.

3256
03:01:06,720 --> 03:01:11,560
Speaker 10: No, I'm here, no tea, no chocolate. I'm safe. I'm good.

3257
03:01:13,360 --> 03:01:17,160
Speaker 5: Anyway. So unfortunately, the people who are not safe is

3258
03:01:17,640 --> 03:01:22,000
Speaker 5: a Haitians in the Domaican Republic. So we are not

3259
03:01:22,160 --> 03:01:24,680
Speaker 5: going to do an entire history of slavery in the

3260
03:01:24,760 --> 03:01:26,480
Speaker 5: Jamaican Republic because.

3261
03:01:26,879 --> 03:01:29,320
Speaker 10: Because this is a chocolate episode, and yeah, we have

3262
03:01:29,400 --> 03:01:30,000
Speaker 10: so much time.

3263
03:01:30,560 --> 03:01:33,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, for many reasons. But one of the

3264
03:01:33,879 --> 03:01:37,600
Speaker 5: things that happened in so we're gonna we're gonna look

3265
03:01:37,600 --> 03:01:39,600
Speaker 5: at sort of the like the modern history of this,

3266
03:01:39,680 --> 03:01:41,600
Speaker 5: and by modern, I'm starting it in I'm starting it

3267
03:01:41,640 --> 03:01:45,320
Speaker 5: in the eighties because I have to pick a place. Now.

3268
03:01:45,440 --> 03:01:48,960
Speaker 5: One of the things that happens in the nineteen eighties

3269
03:01:49,120 --> 03:01:54,080
Speaker 5: is that the Dominican Army effectively so goes into Haiti

3270
03:01:54,400 --> 03:01:56,600
Speaker 5: or just recruitation people who are in the Jamaican Republic

3271
03:01:56,680 --> 03:01:58,560
Speaker 5: and are like, hey, you're gonna okay, we have like

3272
03:01:58,640 --> 03:02:01,440
Speaker 5: jobs for you, like come do this work. And so

3273
03:02:01,480 --> 03:02:03,920
Speaker 5: a bunch of people get in like these like army

3274
03:02:04,000 --> 03:02:07,480
Speaker 5: vans and then they get there and they get moorshed

3275
03:02:07,480 --> 03:02:09,000
Speaker 5: out of the van. A bunch of guys point guns

3276
03:02:09,000 --> 03:02:10,560
Speaker 5: at them and go, you're gonna work for free or

3277
03:02:10,600 --> 03:02:13,959
Speaker 5: we're gonna or like or we're gonna kill you. So

3278
03:02:14,600 --> 03:02:17,720
Speaker 5: this is really bad. And this is this is how

3279
03:02:17,800 --> 03:02:21,200
Speaker 5: a lot of like through the eighties and kind of

3280
03:02:21,280 --> 03:02:25,000
Speaker 5: early nineties, this is how a lot of sugar production

3281
03:02:25,200 --> 03:02:27,760
Speaker 5: worked in the Jamaican Republic. And you know, it's it's

3282
03:02:27,879 --> 03:02:30,440
Speaker 5: very notable here that Dominican Republic produces a lot of sugar,

3283
03:02:30,480 --> 03:02:32,400
Speaker 5: and it produces a lot of sugar that specifically the

3284
03:02:32,480 --> 03:02:36,959
Speaker 5: US uses. Now this is like state run slavery right on,

3285
03:02:37,040 --> 03:02:39,320
Speaker 5: sort of like state run plantations. So then we had

3286
03:02:39,440 --> 03:02:45,279
Speaker 5: neoliberalism and so the state run plantations get privatized. However,

3287
03:02:45,640 --> 03:02:51,440
Speaker 5: come they still run on slave labor. So there's a

3288
03:02:51,480 --> 03:02:53,840
Speaker 5: very good Mother Jones report about this, and I'm gonna

3289
03:02:53,840 --> 03:02:56,840
Speaker 5: I'm gonna read some of it here. Kakata is one

3290
03:02:56,840 --> 03:02:59,840
Speaker 5: of about one hundred, according to a local missionaries estimate,

3291
03:03:00,280 --> 03:03:03,760
Speaker 5: isolated camps scattered around Centralman Central Romana. As a giant

3292
03:03:03,959 --> 03:03:08,400
Speaker 5: sugar plantation, Sentrau Romana's one hundred and sixty thousand acres

3293
03:03:08,400 --> 03:03:11,320
Speaker 5: of sugar cane attract almost as big as New York City.

3294
03:03:12,000 --> 03:03:15,000
Speaker 5: Most of the workers and their families live in these battaias,

3295
03:03:15,200 --> 03:03:17,120
Speaker 5: rising in the morning to work the cane and the

3296
03:03:17,120 --> 03:03:21,480
Speaker 5: punishing heat, clearing weeds, slashing and spraying the stalks. Nearly

3297
03:03:21,520 --> 03:03:24,480
Speaker 5: all are men of Haitian descent. Some were traffic back

3298
03:03:24,480 --> 03:03:27,320
Speaker 5: in the day of the journalists is doing this was

3299
03:03:27,360 --> 03:03:30,320
Speaker 5: the guy who basically uncovered a bunch of the original

3300
03:03:30,400 --> 03:03:32,680
Speaker 5: armies like the military slavery program in the nineties, and

3301
03:03:32,680 --> 03:03:35,760
Speaker 5: so he went back like a couple of years ago.

3302
03:03:37,520 --> 03:03:39,440
Speaker 5: So he s talked himself. Some of the people were

3303
03:03:39,480 --> 03:03:42,800
Speaker 5: traffic back touring the military slavery program, others were born

3304
03:03:42,840 --> 03:03:45,360
Speaker 5: and lived stateless, and others came from Haiti more recently,

3305
03:03:46,320 --> 03:03:50,080
Speaker 5: paying smugglers to sneak them across the border. For years,

3306
03:03:50,120 --> 03:03:52,920
Speaker 5: the government has resisted providing legal status to people of

3307
03:03:52,959 --> 03:03:55,920
Speaker 5: Haitian heritage in the country, even though born there and

3308
03:03:56,080 --> 03:03:59,280
Speaker 5: estimated two hundred thousand people who for generations have been

3309
03:03:59,320 --> 03:04:02,320
Speaker 5: to mean by ray and class are stateless. For the

3310
03:04:02,320 --> 03:04:06,320
Speaker 5: men in the camps, CenTra Romana is the state. Their

3311
03:04:06,400 --> 03:04:09,840
Speaker 5: villages are patrolled by armed company police empowered to evict.

3312
03:04:10,160 --> 03:04:12,760
Speaker 5: Centraro Romana owns the land or the Haitians work the

3313
03:04:12,840 --> 03:04:15,279
Speaker 5: railcars where they weigh and load the can and stocks,

3314
03:04:15,320 --> 03:04:18,160
Speaker 5: and the dwellings where they sleep. They are miles from

3315
03:04:18,200 --> 03:04:22,200
Speaker 5: the nearest Dominican town not controlled by the company. So

3316
03:04:22,440 --> 03:04:28,480
Speaker 5: things going great here, yeah, and the conditions you know, Okay,

3317
03:04:28,280 --> 03:04:32,440
Speaker 5: so the sort of the capitalist reforms that neoliberalism has

3318
03:04:32,600 --> 03:04:37,440
Speaker 5: brought to this system are the number of child slaves

3319
03:04:37,440 --> 03:04:40,200
Speaker 5: has decreased dramatically, because that was a big thing when

3320
03:04:40,200 --> 03:04:43,039
Speaker 5: the first reporting, when everyone was like, holy shit, there's

3321
03:04:43,080 --> 03:04:46,199
Speaker 5: a bunch of child slaves. This is a terrogress. Yeah,

3322
03:04:46,240 --> 03:04:50,680
Speaker 5: so we have less child slaves, right, and you know,

3323
03:04:50,840 --> 03:04:55,080
Speaker 5: so instead of the child slaves, right, it's now mostly adults.

3324
03:04:56,560 --> 03:05:00,000
Speaker 5: But the conditions here are still effectively slavery even after

3325
03:05:00,120 --> 03:05:03,440
Speaker 5: this or a child slavery stuff like is driven under.

3326
03:05:03,920 --> 03:05:06,680
Speaker 5: On a good day, these workers make three dollars a

3327
03:05:06,760 --> 03:05:12,320
Speaker 5: day and they are effectively and sometimes literally unable to leave. Now,

3328
03:05:12,600 --> 03:05:14,640
Speaker 5: there are a lot of reasons for this. One of

3329
03:05:14,640 --> 03:05:17,160
Speaker 5: the big ones is that most of the workers there

3330
03:05:17,280 --> 03:05:20,160
Speaker 5: are most like basically all like you. You might find

3331
03:05:20,160 --> 03:05:22,800
Speaker 5: a worker somewhere who isn't stuck in this, but they're

3332
03:05:22,800 --> 03:05:26,240
Speaker 5: caught in these debt traps by Central Romana who and

3333
03:05:26,280 --> 03:05:28,879
Speaker 5: these are like classic company, but they're not. They're worse

3334
03:05:28,959 --> 03:05:32,400
Speaker 5: than like, you know, the classic American company town, because

3335
03:05:32,400 --> 03:05:34,520
Speaker 5: at least an American company town, you can go to

3336
03:05:34,720 --> 03:05:37,600
Speaker 5: another town that is not controlled by the company, whereas

3337
03:05:37,640 --> 03:05:40,400
Speaker 5: these people like cannot And so they're caught in these

3338
03:05:40,440 --> 03:05:43,320
Speaker 5: debt traps by Central Romana, which is that the company

3339
03:05:43,320 --> 03:05:47,840
Speaker 5: that owns these plantations. And because they're so in debt,

3340
03:05:47,879 --> 03:05:49,800
Speaker 5: they're constantly forced to work for the company in order

3341
03:05:49,840 --> 03:05:51,959
Speaker 5: to pay off their debt. But you know, they never

3342
03:05:52,000 --> 03:05:53,680
Speaker 5: actually make enough money to pay the debt off, and

3343
03:05:53,720 --> 03:05:55,720
Speaker 5: so they have to take on more debt to survive

3344
03:05:56,000 --> 03:05:58,720
Speaker 5: until you know, and largely what happens is these people

3345
03:05:58,879 --> 03:06:02,320
Speaker 5: work there in debt until they die. This is classic

3346
03:06:02,360 --> 03:06:04,800
Speaker 5: debt Pia nine, where a sort of debt transforms people

3347
03:06:04,800 --> 03:06:07,640
Speaker 5: into the effective property of the debt holder, who exacerbate

3348
03:06:07,680 --> 03:06:09,880
Speaker 5: the debt by denying them the ability to live without

3349
03:06:09,879 --> 03:06:12,119
Speaker 5: taking on more debt. A very common way this happens

3350
03:06:12,160 --> 03:06:14,400
Speaker 5: is with medical debt, which is something you know, I

3351
03:06:14,400 --> 03:06:16,959
Speaker 5: think we're familiar with to some extent here, but is

3352
03:06:18,040 --> 03:06:23,440
Speaker 5: egregiously worse. And the other thing that I was realizing

3353
03:06:23,440 --> 03:06:27,400
Speaker 5: about this is that this is actually really eerily similar

3354
03:06:27,440 --> 03:06:29,880
Speaker 5: to the way that Cortez and the Conquistadores and slaved

3355
03:06:29,879 --> 03:06:33,240
Speaker 5: indigenous people during the genocide. They would do the same

3356
03:06:33,280 --> 03:06:34,880
Speaker 5: thing of like, well, okay, now you're in debt to me,

3357
03:06:34,920 --> 03:06:36,680
Speaker 5: and because you can't pay the debt, you have five

3358
03:06:36,760 --> 03:06:38,880
Speaker 5: hundred percent interest per week, and so you know, that

3359
03:06:39,080 --> 03:06:40,560
Speaker 5: just accumulates, and now you work for me for the

3360
03:06:40,600 --> 03:06:44,879
Speaker 5: rest of your lives. And this is you know, this

3361
03:06:44,920 --> 03:06:48,440
Speaker 5: is one of the one of the sort of ways

3362
03:06:48,480 --> 03:06:51,440
Speaker 5: in which this the long shadow of Spanish imperialism like

3363
03:06:51,520 --> 03:06:54,480
Speaker 5: looms over the Dominican Republic, even in what has really

3364
03:06:54,520 --> 03:06:58,440
Speaker 5: been about two hundred years of the age of the

3365
03:06:58,440 --> 03:07:03,280
Speaker 5: American Empire, you know, and as you know, obviously like

3366
03:07:03,320 --> 03:07:06,800
Speaker 5: as much of an effect as the Spanish Empire has

3367
03:07:06,840 --> 03:07:10,720
Speaker 5: had here, and oh god, it's not good. Today it

3368
03:07:10,800 --> 03:07:12,959
Speaker 5: is the American Empire that lines the pockets of the

3369
03:07:12,959 --> 03:07:16,840
Speaker 5: slavers of the Dominican Republic. So such a Romana is

3370
03:07:16,879 --> 03:07:20,080
Speaker 5: owned by this family called the Fundjewel family, who are

3371
03:07:20,120 --> 03:07:26,440
Speaker 5: these Cuban expats who run this like enormous resort in

3372
03:07:26,560 --> 03:07:30,720
Speaker 5: shit where they live in Florida and are handed this

3373
03:07:30,760 --> 03:07:33,600
Speaker 5: is really fun. One hundred and fifty million dollars for

3374
03:07:33,720 --> 03:07:36,199
Speaker 5: the American state every year in the form of price

3375
03:07:36,240 --> 03:07:40,480
Speaker 5: supports for sugar. So like you're an American, right, Like

3376
03:07:40,560 --> 03:07:44,280
Speaker 5: obviously your tax money very obviously goes to support slavery

3377
03:07:44,320 --> 03:07:47,520
Speaker 5: because we have prisons, and so your taxes are paying

3378
03:07:47,520 --> 03:07:51,640
Speaker 5: to enslaved people, but your taxes are also paying for

3379
03:07:51,760 --> 03:07:56,360
Speaker 5: slavery in other countries. It's incredible, really really great stuff

3380
03:07:56,600 --> 03:08:00,800
Speaker 5: from the American political system here. And you know, and

3381
03:08:00,840 --> 03:08:03,280
Speaker 5: the way this has been maintained is through like two

3382
03:08:03,400 --> 03:08:05,560
Speaker 5: I think in the last twenty years, Mother Jones reported

3383
03:08:05,560 --> 03:08:08,360
Speaker 5: they've they've spent the sugar lobbyists spent two hundred and

3384
03:08:08,400 --> 03:08:12,920
Speaker 5: twenty million dollars on campaign contributions and lobbying, and it

3385
03:08:13,080 --> 03:08:15,880
Speaker 5: works really well. They've been able to influence the system

3386
03:08:16,200 --> 03:08:18,879
Speaker 5: for a very very long time. The other funny thing

3387
03:08:18,920 --> 03:08:22,119
Speaker 5: about the Fundjol family is that they've created the perfect

3388
03:08:22,120 --> 03:08:24,120
Speaker 5: political trap, which is so one of one of the

3389
03:08:24,120 --> 03:08:25,880
Speaker 5: brothers is like a Trump guy and the other person

3390
03:08:26,000 --> 03:08:29,400
Speaker 5: is a Hillary supporter, and they're both like incredibly immeshed

3391
03:08:29,440 --> 03:08:35,520
Speaker 5: in both of the circles. So it's great. Things are

3392
03:08:35,520 --> 03:08:38,959
Speaker 5: going very good. So after so the Mother Jones investigation

3393
03:08:39,320 --> 03:08:43,160
Speaker 5: was like in the last I think it was like

3394
03:08:44,480 --> 03:08:48,240
Speaker 5: last year the year before, and when the Mother Jones

3395
03:08:48,280 --> 03:08:50,840
Speaker 5: investigation about the fact that like all of this shit

3396
03:08:50,959 --> 03:08:53,600
Speaker 5: was still happening came out, there was a there was

3397
03:08:53,640 --> 03:08:56,600
Speaker 5: a giant uproar about it, and a couple of things happened.

3398
03:08:56,640 --> 03:08:59,040
Speaker 5: One is that so the village of the journalists had

3399
03:08:59,120 --> 03:09:03,720
Speaker 5: visited so Traya Romana, like, they didn't even bulldoze the villages.

3400
03:09:03,840 --> 03:09:08,320
Speaker 5: They blew everyone's houses down with like sledgehammers and forcibly

3401
03:09:08,400 --> 03:09:11,080
Speaker 5: move them to like other villages and separated people's families.

3402
03:09:12,080 --> 03:09:16,959
Speaker 5: So that's that's great. And then so in late twenty

3403
03:09:17,000 --> 03:09:19,640
Speaker 5: twenty two, under under pressure from this reporting, the US

3404
03:09:19,720 --> 03:09:25,039
Speaker 5: government like banned imports from that specific company. And Okay,

3405
03:09:25,440 --> 03:09:30,680
Speaker 5: it's unclear what is going to happen with it, if

3406
03:09:30,760 --> 03:09:33,520
Speaker 5: you know, if if they're gonna get unbanned eventually, uh,

3407
03:09:33,600 --> 03:09:36,360
Speaker 5: if it's gonna stick, if they're just gonna like I

3408
03:09:36,360 --> 03:09:39,879
Speaker 5: don't know, like transfer the assets to another company or

3409
03:09:39,920 --> 03:09:44,280
Speaker 5: something and use that instead. As so, as of right now,

3410
03:09:44,640 --> 03:09:49,199
Speaker 5: this specific set of plantations is not able to export sugar.

3411
03:09:48,879 --> 03:09:49,440
Speaker 9: To the US.

3412
03:09:51,160 --> 03:09:55,520
Speaker 5: So this is this is as much of a victory

3413
03:09:55,600 --> 03:09:58,040
Speaker 5: over slavery as we're going to get in this episode,

3414
03:09:58,680 --> 03:10:02,800
Speaker 5: and this victory is inc trying to reassure it's only

3415
03:10:02,840 --> 03:10:05,560
Speaker 5: gonna get work. This is this is the peak of

3416
03:10:06,800 --> 03:10:10,520
Speaker 5: anti slavery stuff we're gonna see here. Yeah, so enjoy

3417
03:10:10,560 --> 03:10:12,240
Speaker 5: it while you can. And do you know what else

3418
03:10:12,240 --> 03:10:13,000
Speaker 5: you should enjoy?

3419
03:10:14,080 --> 03:10:19,320
Speaker 10: Oh? These products and services that support this podcast. That's good. Yes,

3420
03:10:19,640 --> 03:10:22,120
Speaker 10: this is this is the real peak of the episode, folks.

3421
03:10:23,200 --> 03:10:27,880
Speaker 10: All right, I am rejuvenated by the advertising industrial complex.

3422
03:10:27,920 --> 03:10:32,840
Speaker 10: I feel ready to hear other tales of great progress.

3423
03:10:33,640 --> 03:10:36,560
Speaker 5: Whoa Okay, So now now, now we're now we're gonna

3424
03:10:36,560 --> 03:10:38,560
Speaker 5: turn to the type of slavery that everyone, I think

3425
03:10:38,600 --> 03:10:41,600
Speaker 5: expected this episode to mostly be about, which is the

3426
03:10:41,640 --> 03:10:45,680
Speaker 5: fact that cocoa bean production is also largely produced by

3427
03:10:45,680 --> 03:10:51,160
Speaker 5: slave labor. So, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna read a

3428
03:10:51,160 --> 03:10:53,800
Speaker 5: bit from a report by the Food Empowerment Project, which

3429
03:10:53,800 --> 03:10:57,359
Speaker 5: has done some very good work on most like specifically

3430
03:10:57,400 --> 03:10:59,320
Speaker 5: slavery in West Africa. They're also one of the only

3431
03:10:59,360 --> 03:11:01,600
Speaker 5: media people have ever seen talk about the fact that

3432
03:11:01,640 --> 03:11:04,280
Speaker 5: a lot of this stuff, it's not exactly the same,

3433
03:11:04,320 --> 03:11:06,600
Speaker 5: but a lot of the sort of slavery stuff also

3434
03:11:06,640 --> 03:11:10,240
Speaker 5: seems to be happening on plantations in Brazil, but there's

3435
03:11:10,240 --> 03:11:14,520
Speaker 5: effectively no coverage of it that's not in Portuguese. I

3436
03:11:14,560 --> 03:11:18,240
Speaker 5: don't know, so like, eventually, one day, I guess, like

3437
03:11:18,560 --> 03:11:21,440
Speaker 5: the fact that the other places other than West Africa

3438
03:11:21,879 --> 03:11:26,240
Speaker 5: have slavery will hit the anglophone media class or whatever.

3439
03:11:26,320 --> 03:11:30,520
Speaker 5: But until then, I'm going to read this section. In

3440
03:11:30,560 --> 03:11:34,520
Speaker 5: West Africa, coco is a commodity crowd grown primarily for export.

3441
03:11:34,879 --> 03:11:37,440
Speaker 5: Coco is the Ivory Coast primary export. It makes up

3442
03:11:37,440 --> 03:11:40,879
Speaker 5: about half the country's agricultural export and volume. Most coco

3443
03:11:41,000 --> 03:11:43,600
Speaker 5: farmers earn less than one dollar a day and income

3444
03:11:43,680 --> 03:11:46,720
Speaker 5: below the extreme poverty line. As a result, they often

3445
03:11:46,800 --> 03:11:49,320
Speaker 5: resort to the use of child labor to keep their

3446
03:11:49,320 --> 03:11:57,840
Speaker 5: prices competitive. In many cases, yeah, yeah, this is one

3447
03:11:57,879 --> 03:12:00,000
Speaker 5: of the things that happens when you're reading about child

3448
03:12:00,120 --> 03:12:03,960
Speaker 5: slavery stuff. Even people who like are trying to, you know,

3449
03:12:04,160 --> 03:12:06,440
Speaker 5: draw attention to how bad this is. You get stuff

3450
03:12:06,480 --> 03:12:11,200
Speaker 5: like that that's like Jesus Christ this. Yeah, so you know,

3451
03:12:11,320 --> 03:12:14,360
Speaker 5: they're making sub one dollar a day, they're using child labor.

3452
03:12:14,400 --> 03:12:18,199
Speaker 5: In many cases, this includes what the International Labor Organization

3453
03:12:18,320 --> 03:12:22,640
Speaker 5: calls quote the worst form of child labor. These are

3454
03:12:22,680 --> 03:12:26,600
Speaker 5: defined as practices quote likely to harm the health, safety,

3455
03:12:26,720 --> 03:12:31,200
Speaker 5: or morals of children. Approximately two point one million children

3456
03:12:31,360 --> 03:12:34,520
Speaker 5: in Ivory Coast and Ghana work on cocoa farms, most

3457
03:12:34,520 --> 03:12:37,720
Speaker 5: of whom are likely exposed to the worst form of

3458
03:12:37,840 --> 03:12:41,879
Speaker 5: child labor. Which is also really good that like we've

3459
03:12:41,959 --> 03:12:46,160
Speaker 5: we've capitalism has finally reached the you know, the apex

3460
03:12:46,200 --> 03:12:48,720
Speaker 5: of its control of the commanding heights of the world economy,

3461
03:12:48,760 --> 03:12:52,040
Speaker 5: which means that we're talking about we're trying to make

3462
03:12:52,200 --> 03:12:55,200
Speaker 5: tear lists of how bad child labor is.

3463
03:12:56,200 --> 03:12:58,000
Speaker 10: Well, yeah, I mean, a whole bunch of child labor

3464
03:12:58,040 --> 03:13:03,280
Speaker 10: laws just got like rolled back across many states here.

3465
03:13:03,360 --> 03:13:06,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a great country, so it's very exciting. The

3466
03:13:06,360 --> 03:13:10,640
Speaker 5: children are for the minds, Yeah, it's it's it's it's great.

3467
03:13:11,640 --> 03:13:14,400
Speaker 5: You know. So, so obviously a lot of the child

3468
03:13:14,400 --> 03:13:18,199
Speaker 5: slavery on cocoa farms are from sort of like larger

3469
03:13:19,560 --> 03:13:21,400
Speaker 5: I mean, I guess they are corporate, but from sort

3470
03:13:21,400 --> 03:13:24,840
Speaker 5: of like larger plantations, but also less You think that

3471
03:13:24,879 --> 03:13:27,640
Speaker 5: it's better on family farms, No family farms, I mean,

3472
03:13:27,640 --> 03:13:30,200
Speaker 5: I guess it is technically better than like being kidnapped

3473
03:13:30,200 --> 03:13:34,520
Speaker 5: and enslaved, is merely doing child labor on your families,

3474
03:13:34,800 --> 03:13:37,400
Speaker 5: like just being born into.

3475
03:13:38,640 --> 03:13:43,760
Speaker 10: These pretty pretty uh not great labor practices that you

3476
03:13:43,800 --> 03:13:46,080
Speaker 10: really have no say it or any agency whatsoever.

3477
03:13:46,200 --> 03:13:48,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, and like you know, this is one of

3478
03:13:48,360 --> 03:13:52,360
Speaker 5: these things where like the economic conditions are so bad

3479
03:13:53,080 --> 03:13:56,680
Speaker 5: that people are people are facing impossible choices, and I

3480
03:13:56,720 --> 03:13:58,840
Speaker 5: think we can say that they make the wrong choice,

3481
03:13:58,840 --> 03:14:01,640
Speaker 5: which is a lot of Okay, So, like there are

3482
03:14:01,800 --> 03:14:05,840
Speaker 5: there were sort of different ways that children get trafficked

3483
03:14:05,879 --> 03:14:10,480
Speaker 5: into slavery work. A lot of them are sold by

3484
03:14:10,480 --> 03:14:12,600
Speaker 5: their own families who do not have enough resources to

3485
03:14:12,640 --> 03:14:15,000
Speaker 5: take care of them and are like, okay, we'll basically

3486
03:14:15,000 --> 03:14:16,720
Speaker 5: sell these people so they can go do this job.

3487
03:14:17,360 --> 03:14:20,920
Speaker 5: And these families don't know that like their child is

3488
03:14:20,959 --> 03:14:23,160
Speaker 5: about to be enslaved, right, They're just like, okay, well

3489
03:14:23,160 --> 03:14:26,200
Speaker 5: they're going to go off and do work. But the

3490
03:14:26,320 --> 03:14:29,480
Speaker 5: other way that this happens is that kids from like

3491
03:14:29,600 --> 03:14:32,959
Speaker 5: villages in other countries. But there's a lot of focus

3492
03:14:33,040 --> 03:14:35,200
Speaker 5: on Mali as one of the places this happens for them.

3493
03:14:35,920 --> 03:14:37,600
Speaker 5: But yeah, so there's a lot of these effects what

3494
03:14:37,600 --> 03:14:41,840
Speaker 5: are effectively raids into into Malli from the Ivory Coast

3495
03:14:41,920 --> 03:14:46,320
Speaker 5: to like steel children, and it's also happens to Bikina Fosso.

3496
03:14:47,160 --> 03:14:50,640
Speaker 5: You know, and this gets to the point where, you know,

3497
03:14:50,720 --> 03:14:52,840
Speaker 5: I'm gonna read a quote from one of these from

3498
03:14:52,920 --> 03:14:56,320
Speaker 5: this report again. In one village in Bikina Fosso, almost

3499
03:14:56,360 --> 03:14:58,920
Speaker 5: every mother in the village has had a child trafficked

3500
03:14:58,959 --> 03:15:03,440
Speaker 5: onto cocaine farms. Traffickers will then sell children to cocaine farmers.

3501
03:15:04,600 --> 03:15:08,440
Speaker 5: So this is like the worst paranoid fantasies of every

3502
03:15:08,480 --> 03:15:12,440
Speaker 5: American right winger, except it's you know, this is just

3503
03:15:12,520 --> 03:15:13,560
Speaker 5: how chocolate is made.

3504
03:15:14,120 --> 03:15:16,519
Speaker 10: Yeah, this is you know, all of all of the

3505
03:15:16,560 --> 03:15:21,320
Speaker 10: Sound of Freedom guys, uh with all of you know,

3506
03:15:21,560 --> 03:15:25,959
Speaker 10: the whole uproar around that movie earlier this year, versus

3507
03:15:26,120 --> 03:15:31,160
Speaker 10: all of them, Uh yeah, enjoying their little eminem said

3508
03:15:31,920 --> 03:15:35,359
Speaker 10: kit Cat said, Hey, I like the occasional kit Cats too.

3509
03:15:35,720 --> 03:15:38,400
Speaker 10: This is this is a massive problem.

3510
03:15:39,320 --> 03:15:42,879
Speaker 5: I I don't know, I really love chocolate. I have

3511
03:15:43,040 --> 03:15:46,080
Speaker 5: not eaten any chocolate since I started researching this, and

3512
03:15:46,120 --> 03:15:49,080
Speaker 5: I like, and there's and it's but it sucks because

3513
03:15:49,080 --> 03:15:51,000
Speaker 5: it's like you can't you can't and we're gonna get

3514
03:15:51,000 --> 03:15:53,080
Speaker 5: into board of this in a second, but like you

3515
03:15:53,120 --> 03:15:56,160
Speaker 5: can't like ethically consume your way out of this, right,

3516
03:15:56,840 --> 03:16:01,240
Speaker 5: like because the conditions but free trade cocoa exist. Oh boy, yeah,

3517
03:16:01,240 --> 03:16:04,440
Speaker 5: we're gonna get into that. But yeah, there's no there's

3518
03:16:04,440 --> 03:16:09,439
Speaker 5: no actual systemic like there's no way that you can

3519
03:16:10,120 --> 03:16:13,680
Speaker 5: like you can't change this stuff with your individual consumption habits.

3520
03:16:14,400 --> 03:16:17,280
Speaker 5: And you know that's something that's just really fucking bleak

3521
03:16:17,320 --> 03:16:21,960
Speaker 5: about this because these conditions are, I mean, as bad

3522
03:16:21,959 --> 03:16:24,600
Speaker 5: as you can possibly imagine. But the Food and Empowerment

3523
03:16:24,640 --> 03:16:27,160
Speaker 5: Project describes like children as young as five are forced

3524
03:16:27,200 --> 03:16:30,200
Speaker 5: to work up to fourteen hours a day, like chopping

3525
03:16:30,280 --> 03:16:34,000
Speaker 5: down cocoa pods and then chopping them open with machetes.

3526
03:16:34,040 --> 03:16:36,360
Speaker 5: And sometimes these people get Sometimes these kids are using

3527
03:16:36,400 --> 03:16:41,720
Speaker 5: chainsaws to like clear wood, like clear down like forests. Yeah,

3528
03:16:41,720 --> 03:16:44,240
Speaker 5: and you know, okay, so this goes exactly how you

3529
03:16:44,280 --> 03:16:45,959
Speaker 5: expected to go, which is a bunch of these kids

3530
03:16:46,040 --> 03:16:47,760
Speaker 5: just have a bunch of fucking scars from where they've

3531
03:16:47,760 --> 03:16:50,760
Speaker 5: been slashed by machetes, because again, you are handing machetes

3532
03:16:50,800 --> 03:16:52,640
Speaker 5: to children, some of whom are as young as five.

3533
03:16:53,320 --> 03:16:55,720
Speaker 5: And then they have to carry one hundred pound bags

3534
03:16:55,720 --> 03:16:58,440
Speaker 5: of cocoa beans through the jungle. And this is the

3535
03:16:58,440 --> 03:17:00,160
Speaker 5: thing that's also happening in to make a public and

3536
03:17:00,200 --> 03:17:02,520
Speaker 5: this happens a lot in a lot of places. Is

3537
03:17:02,560 --> 03:17:07,040
Speaker 5: that they just get you know, when when companies want

3538
03:17:07,120 --> 03:17:11,160
Speaker 5: to spray like they're farms with pesticides, right, they don't

3539
03:17:11,160 --> 03:17:15,680
Speaker 5: even bother even like clearing people out, which might you know,

3540
03:17:15,720 --> 03:17:18,360
Speaker 5: help like a tiny bit to make them not like

3541
03:17:18,480 --> 03:17:21,840
Speaker 5: die from fucking poison. But no, like these fucking dipshits

3542
03:17:21,920 --> 03:17:24,760
Speaker 5: just like spray them with toxic chemicals as they just

3543
03:17:24,920 --> 03:17:27,680
Speaker 5: like spray them with pesticides, like a lot of whom

3544
03:17:27,720 --> 03:17:30,959
Speaker 5: are Christinogians, a lot of And this is happening in

3545
03:17:31,000 --> 03:17:33,879
Speaker 5: the Dominican the surcane fields in the Dominican Republic too,

3546
03:17:33,879 --> 03:17:36,200
Speaker 5: And a lot of those people just fucking died because

3547
03:17:36,640 --> 03:17:39,000
Speaker 5: you know, they were stayed with these chemicals. There was

3548
03:17:39,000 --> 03:17:41,400
Speaker 5: a really terrible story of a of a guy who

3549
03:17:41,440 --> 03:17:45,199
Speaker 5: was trying to sue Central Romana and just fucking died

3550
03:17:45,480 --> 03:17:47,680
Speaker 5: from the like he wasn't able to get a pay

3551
03:17:47,680 --> 03:17:49,560
Speaker 5: off for the lawsuit because he died in twenty twenty

3552
03:17:49,600 --> 03:17:53,480
Speaker 5: before the lawsuit could like finish. So here's another great

3553
03:17:53,560 --> 03:17:56,800
Speaker 5: quote from the Food Empowerment Project. The farm owners using

3554
03:17:56,959 --> 03:17:59,760
Speaker 5: child labor usually provide the children with the cheapest food

3555
03:17:59,760 --> 03:18:02,520
Speaker 5: of ai, such as corn paste or the cassava and

3556
03:18:02,520 --> 03:18:06,040
Speaker 5: bananas that grow in the surrounding forest. In some cases,

3557
03:18:06,080 --> 03:18:09,120
Speaker 5: the children sleep on wooden planks and small windless buildings

3558
03:18:09,120 --> 03:18:13,959
Speaker 5: without access to clean water, sanitary bathrooms. And you know

3559
03:18:14,080 --> 03:18:16,120
Speaker 5: another key part of this, right is like, okay, so

3560
03:18:16,160 --> 03:18:21,720
Speaker 5: the conditions are obviously unbearably bad, but you know, a

3561
03:18:21,840 --> 03:18:23,960
Speaker 5: key part of this, like any system of slavery, is

3562
03:18:24,000 --> 03:18:27,800
Speaker 5: the physical violence against the enslaved people who are repeatedly

3563
03:18:27,840 --> 03:18:31,400
Speaker 5: and often beaten and abused and tortured in ways that

3564
03:18:31,480 --> 03:18:34,520
Speaker 5: are very reminiscent of sort of like older epochs of

3565
03:18:34,560 --> 03:18:38,800
Speaker 5: slavery if they try to escape. Now, this is the

3566
03:18:39,240 --> 03:18:42,320
Speaker 5: companies care about this to the extent that is bad.

3567
03:18:42,360 --> 03:18:47,800
Speaker 5: Pr Yes, and the charcout companies repeated, like the chocolate companies. Okay,

3568
03:18:48,240 --> 03:18:51,320
Speaker 5: they they signed a thing in the year two thousand

3569
03:18:52,320 --> 03:18:55,000
Speaker 5: where they said we're going to eliminate child's the worst

3570
03:18:55,040 --> 03:18:57,199
Speaker 5: forms of child slavery by two thousand and five.

3571
03:18:58,280 --> 03:19:00,560
Speaker 10: Yeah, like this is this has been a non issue

3572
03:19:00,600 --> 03:19:03,519
Speaker 10: for like over two decades.

3573
03:19:03,480 --> 03:19:06,360
Speaker 5: Now, Garrison, Yes, what year is it right now?

3574
03:19:07,280 --> 03:19:08,920
Speaker 10: The year of our Lord to us in twenty three.

3575
03:19:09,480 --> 03:19:12,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, they have been They have been promising to end

3576
03:19:12,720 --> 03:19:19,400
Speaker 5: child slavery in so originally there's supposed to be endy

3577
03:19:19,480 --> 03:19:22,240
Speaker 5: child slavery and then and then they scaled it down

3578
03:19:22,320 --> 03:19:25,520
Speaker 5: to the worst forms the worst. But they have been

3579
03:19:25,520 --> 03:19:27,360
Speaker 5: promised you could do this for longer than you have

3580
03:19:27,400 --> 03:19:34,560
Speaker 5: been alive, yes, correct, which is terrifying. Yes, yes. And

3581
03:19:34,560 --> 03:19:37,400
Speaker 5: and as we'll get into later, right, the number of

3582
03:19:37,520 --> 03:19:42,160
Speaker 5: child slaves is higher than it was when they started

3583
03:19:42,160 --> 03:19:46,520
Speaker 5: doing these child slave reduction efforts, so quote unquote production efforts,

3584
03:19:47,520 --> 03:19:52,800
Speaker 5: which are just sort of pr bullshit. So industry lobbying

3585
03:19:52,879 --> 03:19:55,320
Speaker 5: groups are also very, very powerful, and this is part

3586
03:19:55,320 --> 03:19:57,760
Speaker 5: of part of how this stuff persists. So the University

3587
03:19:57,800 --> 03:20:01,680
Speaker 5: of Chicago has a center called NORAK, which is like

3588
03:20:01,720 --> 03:20:05,240
Speaker 5: a public research center. I don't know, I went to

3589
03:20:05,280 --> 03:20:07,640
Speaker 5: that fucking school. I don't trust any of these motherfuckers,

3590
03:20:07,800 --> 03:20:10,080
Speaker 5: and NEI or should you, because it turns out there

3591
03:20:10,160 --> 03:20:12,480
Speaker 5: was so okay. So they released this report on how

3592
03:20:12,520 --> 03:20:16,720
Speaker 5: bad child slavery is, right, but there was a leak

3593
03:20:17,000 --> 03:20:19,640
Speaker 5: of the original version of the report that was supposed

3594
03:20:19,680 --> 03:20:21,800
Speaker 5: to come out, and mean, the original version of the

3595
03:20:21,920 --> 03:20:25,080
Speaker 5: report has the number of child slaves at like two

3596
03:20:25,120 --> 03:20:28,680
Speaker 5: point two million. Now, when the report actually comes out

3597
03:20:28,720 --> 03:20:31,560
Speaker 5: with no justification whatsoever and using a bunch of numbers

3598
03:20:31,560 --> 03:20:34,720
Speaker 5: for child slavery that are from before COVID nineteen, the

3599
03:20:34,720 --> 03:20:37,240
Speaker 5: Norak report was like, ah, there's only like one point

3600
03:20:37,320 --> 03:20:42,680
Speaker 5: six million child slaves. So six hundred thousand child slaves

3601
03:20:42,760 --> 03:20:45,560
Speaker 5: just sort of vanished in an editorial process after they

3602
03:20:45,560 --> 03:20:50,160
Speaker 5: got they came under fire from uh, the they came

3603
03:20:50,240 --> 03:20:51,920
Speaker 5: under fire from the chocolate lobby.

3604
03:20:52,440 --> 03:20:56,439
Speaker 10: Yeah yeah, let's uh, let's round that down. Makes it

3605
03:20:56,440 --> 03:20:57,840
Speaker 10: makes it easier to palace.

3606
03:20:58,000 --> 03:20:59,960
Speaker 5: And the other thing that it hides is that there's

3607
03:21:00,120 --> 03:21:02,560
Speaker 5: a ten to fifteen percent increase in the number of

3608
03:21:03,520 --> 03:21:07,279
Speaker 5: child slaves working in like in the co in Cocoa

3609
03:21:07,680 --> 03:21:11,000
Speaker 5: since COVID started, because COVID has been a giant sort

3610
03:21:11,040 --> 03:21:15,279
Speaker 5: of you know, the economic damage that COVID caused forced

3611
03:21:15,320 --> 03:21:18,879
Speaker 5: a bunch of people into into you know, increasingly desperate things.

3612
03:21:20,400 --> 03:21:23,840
Speaker 5: And you know, okay, so we tease this a little bit,

3613
03:21:23,879 --> 03:21:25,920
Speaker 5: and you might be thinking, well, I can eat fair

3614
03:21:26,000 --> 03:21:28,120
Speaker 5: trade chocolate, right, I can pay ten dollars for a

3615
03:21:28,200 --> 03:21:30,039
Speaker 5: chocolate bars as a fair trade on it, and it

3616
03:21:30,080 --> 03:21:32,520
Speaker 5: will and that will make sure that I'm only eating

3617
03:21:32,600 --> 03:21:36,880
Speaker 5: chocolate produced by free labor. Nope, the certifications for the

3618
03:21:36,959 --> 03:21:41,600
Speaker 5: chocolate are fucking bullshit. You're still eating slave chocolate. The

3619
03:21:41,640 --> 03:21:44,039
Speaker 5: follow is an excerpt from a study conducted by the

3620
03:21:44,040 --> 03:21:46,920
Speaker 5: Corporate Accountability Lab on the failure of initiatives in the

3621
03:21:46,959 --> 03:21:51,360
Speaker 5: chocolate industry like certifications quote. In order to understand the

3622
03:21:51,440 --> 03:21:55,920
Speaker 5: gap between consumer perception and farmer impact better, we brought

3623
03:21:56,000 --> 03:21:59,520
Speaker 5: certified chocolate bars to villages where some are all of

3624
03:21:59,520 --> 03:22:03,080
Speaker 5: the farm were certified. We held up the bar with

3625
03:22:03,200 --> 03:22:06,440
Speaker 5: the label and explained to the farmers what consumers expected

3626
03:22:06,480 --> 03:22:09,440
Speaker 5: out of the label, primarily that farmers were paired a

3627
03:22:09,440 --> 03:22:12,800
Speaker 5: fair price, earned a decent living, and certain practices like

3628
03:22:12,879 --> 03:22:16,600
Speaker 5: child labor and deforestation were not present. We also explained

3629
03:22:16,600 --> 03:22:20,160
Speaker 5: the difference in retail price between fair trade and uncertified chocolate.

3630
03:22:20,560 --> 03:22:24,240
Speaker 5: The overwhelming response from farmers to this information was shock

3631
03:22:24,280 --> 03:22:28,840
Speaker 5: and outrage. One farmer pulled out his worn shirt in

3632
03:22:28,879 --> 03:22:31,000
Speaker 5: front of him and asked if it looked like he

3633
03:22:31,040 --> 03:22:34,240
Speaker 5: earned a decent living. A woman in one village said

3634
03:22:34,240 --> 03:22:36,480
Speaker 5: she can hardly afford to send to her children to school,

3635
03:22:36,680 --> 03:22:39,000
Speaker 5: so how could anyone think she earned a fair price.

3636
03:22:39,760 --> 03:22:45,040
Speaker 5: Our farmer consultations revealed virtually imperceptible differences between certified and

3637
03:22:45,120 --> 03:22:49,360
Speaker 5: uncertified farms in terms of living incomes, poverty, education, access

3638
03:22:49,360 --> 03:22:54,760
Speaker 5: to healthcare, farmer bargaining power, or access to information. So, yeah,

3639
03:22:55,200 --> 03:22:56,800
Speaker 5: all the people who are telling you they're doing some

3640
03:22:56,879 --> 03:23:00,320
Speaker 5: fair trade shit, they're keeping your money and the places

3641
03:23:00,320 --> 03:23:02,240
Speaker 5: they are getting it from are as fucked as the

3642
03:23:02,600 --> 03:23:06,280
Speaker 5: as Hershey's yeah, so this is bad.

3643
03:23:06,360 --> 03:23:06,560
Speaker 9: Now.

3644
03:23:06,680 --> 03:23:09,000
Speaker 5: You might also think, Okay, we can get out of

3645
03:23:09,000 --> 03:23:12,800
Speaker 5: this by buying from coco cooperatives. Except except, and this

3646
03:23:12,920 --> 03:23:16,800
Speaker 5: is a wonderful thing that capitalism is brought on the world.

3647
03:23:17,720 --> 03:23:21,640
Speaker 5: Most coco collectives aren't actually like workers collector like aren't

3648
03:23:21,640 --> 03:23:24,160
Speaker 5: actually co ops. They're just sort of.

3649
03:23:24,080 --> 03:23:28,080
Speaker 10: All people's republic of chocolate farmers. I'm sure they're all

3650
03:23:30,040 --> 03:23:30,880
Speaker 10: a little red book.

3651
03:23:31,520 --> 03:23:35,040
Speaker 5: This is something actually, this is something that China actually pioneered,

3652
03:23:35,040 --> 03:23:37,240
Speaker 5: because there's there's a bunch of firms in China that

3653
03:23:37,280 --> 03:23:40,160
Speaker 5: are also technical. I talked about this in my episode

3654
03:23:40,160 --> 03:23:42,160
Speaker 5: of Bachelor's episode a long time ago about this milk

3655
03:23:42,160 --> 03:23:45,280
Speaker 5: company that poisoned three hundred thousand babies, and that company

3656
03:23:45,400 --> 03:23:49,200
Speaker 5: was technically a co op, but like it was a

3657
03:23:49,240 --> 03:23:51,520
Speaker 5: co op in the sense that there was a small

3658
03:23:51,560 --> 03:23:54,520
Speaker 5: group of workers who were basically managers who owned shares,

3659
03:23:54,560 --> 03:23:56,200
Speaker 5: and then they just hired every source everything out to

3660
03:23:56,240 --> 03:23:59,560
Speaker 5: independent contractors, so it functioned like a normal company. Yeah,

3661
03:23:59,720 --> 03:24:02,080
Speaker 5: this is a thing. A lot this the cocoa trade

3662
03:24:02,080 --> 03:24:04,400
Speaker 5: stuff is actually worse because most of these things that

3663
03:24:04,440 --> 03:24:06,360
Speaker 5: are called co ops aren't even co ops at all.

3664
03:24:06,360 --> 03:24:08,879
Speaker 5: They're just set up by cocoa growers as like fake

3665
03:24:08,920 --> 03:24:11,000
Speaker 5: co ops. And there they are like a very very

3666
03:24:11,040 --> 03:24:14,200
Speaker 5: small number of of of these coco farms that are

3667
03:24:14,200 --> 03:24:17,480
Speaker 5: actually workers cooperatives, but there's no way to tell which

3668
03:24:17,480 --> 03:24:20,320
Speaker 5: one is which unless you spend a bunch of time

3669
03:24:20,560 --> 03:24:25,160
Speaker 5: like actually going and tracking the cooperatives down. So there's

3670
03:24:25,200 --> 03:24:29,400
Speaker 5: no sort of like ethically way out of this, right,

3671
03:24:30,360 --> 03:24:32,440
Speaker 5: you're just kind of you're, you know, like you can't

3672
03:24:32,560 --> 03:24:35,560
Speaker 5: you can't eat your way out of this problem. And

3673
03:24:35,640 --> 03:24:39,000
Speaker 5: of course everything across the board, all these conditions have

3674
03:24:39,000 --> 03:24:42,720
Speaker 5: gotten worse since the pandemic, So you know, it's it's

3675
03:24:43,280 --> 03:24:46,560
Speaker 5: not only is capitalism not making things better every like

3676
03:24:46,640 --> 03:24:50,720
Speaker 5: things are in fact getting worse. Now, all right, I

3677
03:24:50,800 --> 03:24:54,160
Speaker 5: promised you the lawsuits. We're gonna talk a bit about

3678
03:24:54,200 --> 03:24:57,720
Speaker 5: the lawsuits. So there were actually two big lawsuits. There

3679
03:24:57,760 --> 03:24:59,959
Speaker 5: were eight people from Molly who were enslaved by coke

3680
03:25:00,840 --> 03:25:06,000
Speaker 5: plantations after being traffic from Mali sued nest Le, Cargill, Berry, Caliba,

3681
03:25:06,160 --> 03:25:10,360
Speaker 5: I don't know, some French shit mars Alam, Hershey's, and

3682
03:25:10,480 --> 03:25:13,280
Speaker 5: Models to try to get conversations from the companies by

3683
03:25:13,360 --> 03:25:16,840
Speaker 5: virtue of the fact that the companies sold products made

3684
03:25:16,879 --> 03:25:21,360
Speaker 5: by their child slave labor. Yeah. Now there's also a

3685
03:25:21,400 --> 03:25:24,600
Speaker 5: separate lawsuit against slightly different companies, so a lot of

3686
03:25:24,640 --> 03:25:26,920
Speaker 5: the same company is slightly different that's using a different

3687
03:25:26,920 --> 03:25:30,360
Speaker 5: set of legal arguments. Both of the lawsuits have been

3688
03:25:30,360 --> 03:25:32,520
Speaker 5: thrown out, and I want to take a second to

3689
03:25:32,720 --> 03:25:34,400
Speaker 5: look at the reasoning here, both of which are sort

3690
03:25:34,400 --> 03:25:37,200
Speaker 5: of just amazing. So I think the most famous one

3691
03:25:37,200 --> 03:25:40,680
Speaker 5: is the Supreme Courts eight to one decision that said, well, so, like,

3692
03:25:40,760 --> 03:25:43,200
Speaker 5: all this stuff happened, but it happened outside the US,

3693
03:25:43,200 --> 03:25:46,720
Speaker 5: so you can't sue companies for it. Here. She's an

3694
03:25:46,760 --> 03:25:49,720
Speaker 5: amazing piece of logic, which is just like, oh yeah, no, Actually,

3695
03:25:49,879 --> 03:25:53,080
Speaker 5: like corporations, like American corporations could just go everywhere else

3696
03:25:53,120 --> 03:25:56,240
Speaker 5: and do crimes. And this is in the American legal

3697
03:25:56,280 --> 03:25:58,680
Speaker 5: system is specifically written in such a way that like

3698
03:25:59,440 --> 03:26:04,280
Speaker 5: if in a American corporation enslaves you in like the

3699
03:26:04,320 --> 03:26:07,200
Speaker 5: Ivory Coast, there's nothing you can do about it in

3700
03:26:07,240 --> 03:26:11,560
Speaker 5: the US. And then a judgment do you see throughout

3701
03:26:11,600 --> 03:26:14,720
Speaker 5: the other case because you know, their argument was, well,

3702
03:26:14,800 --> 03:26:17,520
Speaker 5: you can't prove that the companies knew you were being

3703
03:26:17,560 --> 03:26:21,800
Speaker 5: enslaved on those farms. There's no quote traceable connection between

3704
03:26:21,840 --> 03:26:23,560
Speaker 5: the people who enslaved you in the company, and so

3705
03:26:23,560 --> 03:26:27,000
Speaker 5: there's nothing we can do. And the reason both these

3706
03:26:27,080 --> 03:26:29,680
Speaker 5: arguments work is the reason for the structure of the

3707
03:26:29,720 --> 03:26:33,840
Speaker 5: chocolate market, right the reason coco plantations in the Ivory

3708
03:26:33,840 --> 03:26:37,840
Speaker 5: Coast and also Brazil can get away with this. You know, well,

3709
03:26:37,840 --> 03:26:40,080
Speaker 5: the reason that those plantations are in the Ivory Coast

3710
03:26:40,160 --> 03:26:43,400
Speaker 5: or Brazil or other places, the reason they're happening there

3711
03:26:43,440 --> 03:26:46,080
Speaker 5: and not in the US is because these are places

3712
03:26:46,080 --> 03:26:48,199
Speaker 5: where you can get away with that level of exploitation

3713
03:26:48,240 --> 03:26:50,920
Speaker 5: in corporate violence that you know in the US would

3714
03:26:50,920 --> 03:26:53,520
Speaker 5: be a lot more difficult. And this shields them from

3715
03:26:53,560 --> 03:26:58,199
Speaker 5: legal liability. Furthermore, instead of just you know, jumping, instead

3716
03:26:58,200 --> 03:27:00,640
Speaker 5: of just running the cocoa plantations themselves, which these companies

3717
03:27:00,640 --> 03:27:03,279
Speaker 5: could easily do, right, this is a very very large trade.

3718
03:27:03,360 --> 03:27:05,720
Speaker 5: They could just sort of like they could invertially vertically

3719
03:27:05,760 --> 03:27:09,359
Speaker 5: and not even vertical integrate, they could just actually make chocolate,

3720
03:27:09,640 --> 03:27:12,760
Speaker 5: like they could just run the process, and they they

3721
03:27:12,879 --> 03:27:16,480
Speaker 5: very specifically choose not to do it. And the reason

3722
03:27:16,520 --> 03:27:18,840
Speaker 5: they choose not to do it, this isn't one hundred

3723
03:27:18,879 --> 03:27:22,720
Speaker 5: billion dollar industry, right, But instead they what they choose

3724
03:27:22,760 --> 03:27:25,279
Speaker 5: to do is to just buy cocoa from the chocolate

3725
03:27:25,320 --> 03:27:28,320
Speaker 5: market where all these sort of nebulous producers sell, which

3726
03:27:28,360 --> 03:27:30,959
Speaker 5: allows the chocolate companies to go, oh, well, these people

3727
03:27:31,000 --> 03:27:33,119
Speaker 5: don't work for us. We just buy chocolate from the market.

3728
03:27:33,160 --> 03:27:36,200
Speaker 5: How are we supposed to know which these plantations use

3729
03:27:36,240 --> 03:27:40,320
Speaker 5: slave labor? So it puts like a one degree of separation, Yeah,

3730
03:27:40,400 --> 03:27:42,959
Speaker 5: well it's actually two degrees. It's an additional degree of

3731
03:27:42,959 --> 03:27:45,560
Speaker 5: separation from the way something like Walmart works. Right where

3732
03:27:45,600 --> 03:27:49,439
Speaker 5: Walmart has a bunch of independent contractors. This isn't even contractors.

3733
03:27:49,959 --> 03:27:54,400
Speaker 5: They're just buying finished products from things they're like they're

3734
03:27:54,720 --> 03:27:58,520
Speaker 5: completely unaffiliated with, and this gives them, like it gives

3735
03:27:58,560 --> 03:28:01,039
Speaker 5: them like two degrees of legal separation because it's not

3736
03:28:01,280 --> 03:28:04,800
Speaker 5: just that their contractors are doing something that they didn't

3737
03:28:04,840 --> 03:28:09,720
Speaker 5: know about. It's that they're just buying it right, and

3738
03:28:09,800 --> 03:28:14,320
Speaker 5: this fucking sucks. And you know, since laws exist to

3739
03:28:14,320 --> 03:28:16,760
Speaker 5: protect the ruling class, judges and courts can just wave

3740
03:28:16,840 --> 03:28:20,240
Speaker 5: their hands and go, well, these companies definitely enslaved you,

3741
03:28:20,400 --> 03:28:22,960
Speaker 5: but we have no choice but to let them off

3742
03:28:22,959 --> 03:28:27,080
Speaker 5: completely scott free. So sorry about that. And I want

3743
03:28:27,080 --> 03:28:29,000
Speaker 5: to end today with something that has been running through

3744
03:28:29,000 --> 03:28:32,520
Speaker 5: my mind every since I fucking started researching this, which

3745
03:28:32,560 --> 03:28:35,080
Speaker 5: is that the voorgeoisie must pay for their crimes. The

3746
03:28:35,120 --> 03:28:38,200
Speaker 5: state has failed, the court has failed, the NGOs have failed.

3747
03:28:38,720 --> 03:28:42,240
Speaker 5: And if anything is ever going to fucking happen that

3748
03:28:42,280 --> 03:28:45,720
Speaker 5: forces these companies to be in any way, there there's

3749
03:28:45,760 --> 03:28:48,640
Speaker 5: to be like a single iota of justice for the

3750
03:28:48,680 --> 03:28:51,160
Speaker 5: fact that all of these companies have been fucking gorging

3751
03:28:51,160 --> 03:28:55,520
Speaker 5: themselves on the profits of slave labor. At all, we

3752
03:28:55,600 --> 03:28:59,039
Speaker 5: are going to do it or no one is. So

3753
03:28:59,200 --> 03:29:04,280
Speaker 5: congratulations you the American worker. It is unfortunately incumbent on

3754
03:29:04,440 --> 03:29:08,440
Speaker 5: you to deal with these fucking corporations that have been

3755
03:29:08,440 --> 03:29:14,240
Speaker 5: destroying the entire world. So yeah, happy spooky week everyone. Yes,

3756
03:29:14,360 --> 03:29:15,680
Speaker 5: this is very scary.

3757
03:29:16,600 --> 03:29:22,279
Speaker 10: Yeah, well, thank you for that lovely, uh depressing presentation.

3758
03:29:22,720 --> 03:29:25,720
Speaker 5: Uh, Mia, I mean.

3759
03:29:25,640 --> 03:29:28,240
Speaker 10: I guess is there is there is there a sort

3760
03:29:28,280 --> 03:29:31,200
Speaker 10: of takeaway besides, there's no ethical conception to under capitalism.

3761
03:29:31,280 --> 03:29:36,279
Speaker 5: I mean, like, I mean, capitalism will never abolish slavery.

3762
03:29:37,400 --> 03:29:38,120
Speaker 5: I don't think one.

3763
03:29:38,440 --> 03:29:41,439
Speaker 10: I know there is one US state where they grow chocolate,

3764
03:29:41,840 --> 03:29:45,920
Speaker 10: which is Hawaii, which has its own problems of colonization.

3765
03:29:46,080 --> 03:29:48,480
Speaker 10: So even if you try to buy from a place

3766
03:29:48,520 --> 03:29:52,840
Speaker 10: that is you know, arguably has less chocolate slavery, it's

3767
03:29:53,080 --> 03:29:57,040
Speaker 10: generally better produced, it still is you're still implicating yourself

3768
03:29:57,080 --> 03:30:01,800
Speaker 10: in in uh, all of the problems relating to like, uh,

3769
03:30:02,360 --> 03:30:07,120
Speaker 10: the independence of that island and the US's colonization. So

3770
03:30:07,760 --> 03:30:11,240
Speaker 10: it's it's it's we're really just really just kind of

3771
03:30:11,480 --> 03:30:14,320
Speaker 10: trapped on all sides. Here is what it feels like.

3772
03:30:14,600 --> 03:30:17,360
Speaker 10: I mean, this is this Halloween chocolate problem.

3773
03:30:17,760 --> 03:30:21,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, and I think I think the way

3774
03:30:21,000 --> 03:30:22,879
Speaker 5: to think about this, right is that this this is

3775
03:30:22,920 --> 03:30:25,959
Speaker 5: an actual systemic issue, right, This is a systemic thing

3776
03:30:26,000 --> 03:30:29,080
Speaker 5: capitalism has been doing for about four hundred years, like

3777
03:30:29,200 --> 03:30:32,240
Speaker 5: since its entire existence. And if you want to if

3778
03:30:32,280 --> 03:30:35,600
Speaker 5: you want to end it, we have to you have to. Actually,

3779
03:30:36,480 --> 03:30:38,880
Speaker 5: it's not it's not even enough to destroy these companies, right,

3780
03:30:38,920 --> 03:30:41,040
Speaker 5: because even if you brought down every single one of

3781
03:30:41,080 --> 03:30:43,000
Speaker 5: these chocolate companies right, there would just be another round

3782
03:30:43,040 --> 03:30:45,119
Speaker 5: of chocolate companies. It will be doing exactly the same ship.

3783
03:30:45,959 --> 03:30:48,360
Speaker 5: So you have to you have to destroy the system

3784
03:30:48,400 --> 03:30:50,760
Speaker 5: of property by which these things are allowed to exist.

3785
03:30:51,680 --> 03:30:55,160
Speaker 5: And at that point maybe you can start on being

3786
03:30:55,240 --> 03:30:57,320
Speaker 5: able to eat food that isn't produced by slave labor.

3787
03:30:58,040 --> 03:31:01,480
Speaker 10: It turns out Willia Wogkill was the villain the whole time.

3788
03:31:02,160 --> 03:31:06,360
Speaker 5: You know, I was trying to think about the amount

3789
03:31:06,360 --> 03:31:08,320
Speaker 5: of slave labor that we see from him versus the

3790
03:31:08,360 --> 03:31:15,199
Speaker 5: amount of slavery Wonka. Yes, it's it's I think Wonka

3791
03:31:15,240 --> 03:31:17,440
Speaker 5: is using more slave labor, but not by as much

3792
03:31:17,480 --> 03:31:18,160
Speaker 5: as it should be.

3793
03:31:18,600 --> 03:31:21,000
Speaker 10: I don't know, I don't know, it's it's it's hard

3794
03:31:21,040 --> 03:31:23,360
Speaker 10: to say. I I I think it's pretty clear that

3795
03:31:23,840 --> 03:31:26,840
Speaker 10: Walka's use of slave labor is just an accurate representation

3796
03:31:27,320 --> 03:31:30,200
Speaker 10: of the real life chocolate industry.

3797
03:31:30,320 --> 03:31:35,359
Speaker 5: Yes, so yeah, go go, go enjoy your weekend and then.

3798
03:31:34,800 --> 03:31:38,480
Speaker 10: Don't enjoy that new fucking twink Walgka movie that looks

3799
03:31:38,680 --> 03:31:40,280
Speaker 10: I have to say, dog shit.

3800
03:31:40,600 --> 03:31:45,000
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, bad herod, worst idea, badst idea, anyone's had

3801
03:31:45,040 --> 03:31:47,320
Speaker 5: since capitalism twin Kwonka.

3802
03:31:47,400 --> 03:31:52,000
Speaker 10: I'm sorry it doesn't slap I agree out of ten anyway, Well,

3803
03:31:53,120 --> 03:31:56,119
Speaker 10: tune in in the next few days for two more

3804
03:31:56,120 --> 03:31:58,280
Speaker 10: Spooky Week episodes for you. We only got We only

3805
03:31:58,320 --> 03:32:00,119
Speaker 10: got three this week because there's a lot of air

3806
03:32:00,200 --> 03:32:02,480
Speaker 10: news happen ach but yeah, we at least have two

3807
03:32:02,520 --> 03:32:05,360
Speaker 10: other Spooky Week episodes that I am about to finish

3808
03:32:05,440 --> 03:32:07,039
Speaker 10: working on, so stay tuned for that.

3809
03:32:08,200 --> 03:32:18,800
Speaker 16: Goodbye, Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every

3810
03:32:18,800 --> 03:32:21,000
Speaker 16: week from now until the heat death of the Universe.

3811
03:32:21,600 --> 03:32:24,120
Speaker 1: It Could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

3812
03:32:24,200 --> 03:32:26,840
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3813
03:32:26,920 --> 03:32:29,120
Speaker 3: cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the

3814
03:32:29,160 --> 03:32:32,560
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

3815
03:32:33,000 --> 03:32:35,080
Speaker 3: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

3816
03:32:35,200 --> 03:32:38,280
Speaker 3: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources.

3817
03:32:38,400 --> 03:32:39,240
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.