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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an army of normal folks,

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Speaker 1: and we continue now with part two of our conversation

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Speaker 1: with an tong Lucky. Right after these brief messages from

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Speaker 1: our general sponsors, I'm gonna tee this up for you,

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Speaker 1: but I'm going to say to you what I've heard before.

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Speaker 1: When the police put the blue lights on you in

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Speaker 1: your car and you pull over and you don't do

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Speaker 1: anything wrong, and you don't have any drugs, and you

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Speaker 1: don't have a gun on you, and you ain't got

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Speaker 1: a warrant, you got nothing to worry about. You're gonna

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Speaker 1: get a ticket, but when you run, you should expect

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Speaker 1: to get your ad kicked. I want you to understand

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Speaker 1: playing devil's advocate here, Okay, I get I gere you. Likewise,

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Speaker 1: there's no justification for the officers our tax dollars paid

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Speaker 1: for to protect and serve our communities, to lie and

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Speaker 1: trump up charges against somebody that don't exist. There's no, no,

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Speaker 1: there's no excusing that. But that stuff would have never

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Speaker 1: happened to you had you not been in that life anyway.

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Speaker 1: So I'm yeah, yeah, that was advocate. But I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: tell you something there's a whole lot of folks that

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Speaker 1: will that are sitting there listening to us right now. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're doing this, nodding their head, going you tell them, Bill,

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Speaker 1: because that's real. I'm telling you, that's a lot of

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Speaker 1: folks that think.

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Speaker 2: I do get Bill, I do get that that a

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Speaker 2: lot of the choices I made put me in that position.

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Speaker 2: But I still don't. But what I digress that is

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Speaker 2: that's still not justification for an off to break the

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Speaker 2: law to enforce the law. I tell your listeners that

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Speaker 2: they can, you can. It's no justification. If you catch

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Speaker 2: a person did wrong right and they broke the law,

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Speaker 2: that person has to that person has to own up

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Speaker 2: of that and to be accountable for that. But under

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Speaker 2: no point, I don't care who the person is, what

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Speaker 2: their background is. Nobody should at any time I text

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Speaker 2: ole to pay for an offer to break the law

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Speaker 2: to enforce the law. When you agree on that, or

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Speaker 2: do you think it's at some points it's justifiable to

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Speaker 2: break the law to enforce.

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Speaker 1: The law, I one hundred percent agree with you. But

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Speaker 1: I think it's important that we take a minute to

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Speaker 1: talk about those notions because they're real. Yeah, they are,

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Speaker 1: all right, and I'm going to tell you something else.

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Speaker 1: In a society where the news cycle continues to show

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Speaker 1: us hordes of people rushing nordstorms and running out with

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Speaker 1: rocks of clothes, we see walgreens shutting down in parts

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Speaker 1: of Oakland and other parts because they can't even operate

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Speaker 1: from the crime. We see repeated pictures of car thefts

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Speaker 1: and car jackings and all that's going on in the world.

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Speaker 1: There is a snap back pendulum effect and a certain

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Speaker 1: segment of our society that unrighteously will sometimes justify those

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Speaker 1: and those actions as a means of quote getting control.

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you I don't agree with that, but there's

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Speaker 1: people on listen to us right now that might and

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Speaker 1: I want you to tell them why why we can't

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Speaker 1: succumb to that.

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Speaker 2: Right, I totally divert on that, and I totally you know,

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Speaker 2: my thought is this right, the eroding trust that exists

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Speaker 2: dirty in against with community and law enforcement. It's because

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Speaker 2: when we succumb to those type of notions where we

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Speaker 2: suspend the law in the interests of our subjectivity or whatever.

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Speaker 1: We think it is our quote safety.

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Speaker 2: Our safety.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's the that's the term that's not right,

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Speaker 2: that's not At no point Bill should somebody say, man,

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Speaker 2: just because that's Bill and man, maybe he does a podcast,

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Speaker 2: he says some stuff on that podcast that I don't

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Speaker 2: like that. I'm why he's sitting in here. I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: put some drugs in his car. And then when he

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Speaker 2: go down the street, you know, my friend that's a

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Speaker 2: police officer gonna pull him over, and now we're gonna

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Speaker 2: we're gonna stick it. That's not right. Now. If now,

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Speaker 2: if now, if Bill, if if Bill pulled off from here,

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Speaker 2: and Bill have his own drugs in the car, illegal

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Speaker 2: drugs in the car, that whatever you do with it,

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Speaker 2: and they catch you dirty, then Bill got to deal

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Speaker 2: with that. But I will be the first one to

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Speaker 2: defend Bill. If that's it, the formal situation happened, I'll

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Speaker 2: be saying that's not right. And I be on the

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Speaker 2: front lines saying that that's not right because we can't

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Speaker 2: never suspend that. We can't suspend law and order in

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Speaker 2: the in the entriest of public safety. Law and order

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Speaker 2: is what is what promotes public safety, is what ensures

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Speaker 2: public safety, not the other way around.

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Speaker 1: One minute, Alex, here's my keys. Would you go watch

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Speaker 1: my car for me. That just freaked me out a

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Speaker 1: little bit. All right, just no, just no, no, no.

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Speaker 1: What I want to say to you, is it also

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Speaker 1: in my opinion, Yeah, if there's any inkling and an

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Speaker 1: opportunity to rehabilitate those that are breaking the law, if

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Speaker 1: they know in their mind and hearts of hearts that

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Speaker 1: the very the very law that's got them locked up

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Speaker 1: has corrupt. I even tried to rebuild. Take yes, So

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Speaker 1: we actually through those actions, we actually are partied the perpetuation,

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Speaker 1: man of chronic lawlessness.

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Speaker 2: Man, man, man, man, you hit that on Oh you

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Speaker 2: hit that right on oath. We are party to the

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Speaker 2: perpetuation of lawlessness when we do stuff like that. If justice,

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Speaker 2: if true, justice, law and order in its most pureous sense,

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Speaker 2: is not promoted because I think, I think crime is

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Speaker 2: an issue that we all care about and we all

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Speaker 2: want to see out of our society, et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: Even those who probably been convicted of crimes have done

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Speaker 2: time for crime, those who live in communities full of crime.

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Speaker 2: We all that's something that's that don't discriminate against people

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Speaker 2: race whatever. I think we all want that, and I

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Speaker 2: think what makes us safer what is when we have

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Speaker 2: a legal system that is no discriminate discrimination of people

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Speaker 2: and law that lack stands on its own right. And

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Speaker 2: so we have to always promote that. We got to

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Speaker 2: always push that, you know, and sometimes it don't feel

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Speaker 2: good because again, we see these images that we see

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Speaker 2: on the nightly news day in and day out. We

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Speaker 2: never stop to think, what do those images does to

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Speaker 2: our subconscious How does it influence us to think? We

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Speaker 2: don't never think about how the algorithms influence us to think.

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Speaker 2: Because if I click on the video and it shows

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Speaker 2: me something, I don't even have to define it. The

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Speaker 2: algorithm's gonna continue to show me that from all over

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Speaker 2: the country. And then we never stop to think about

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Speaker 2: how do that purge you our perception? And I think

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Speaker 2: our job as American citizens is to always, you know,

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Speaker 2: do a background check on what goes into our minds.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna pick up chronologically for your story to get

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Speaker 1: where we're especial. We're going there and we're gonna pick

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Speaker 1: up where your daughter was born and you in jail,

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Speaker 1: which irony of irony is no different than you when

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Speaker 1: you were infant and your dad went to jail. So

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Speaker 1: we're going to get to that, because I think that's

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Speaker 1: a great place. But I got to say one more thing, Okay,

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Speaker 1: because we've already talked about two societal conversations that people

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Speaker 1: struggle with, and I want you to hear me. I

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Speaker 1: genuinely think people on all sides. Now you got your

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Speaker 1: ten percent on one side and your ten percent on

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Speaker 1: the other side, that are just ridiculous. Ryan got time

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Speaker 1: for either, but the eighty percent in the middle, maybe

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Speaker 1: on two different sides of a conversation, but I genuinely

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Speaker 1: think they're all looking for the same outcome. It's just

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Speaker 1: trying to get there. I agree, all right, And we've

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Speaker 1: talked about two of them. The third one I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about is were those officers white or black?

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Speaker 2: They were black.

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Speaker 1: I did not know that.

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Speaker 2: I know you probably assumed that they were white, but

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Speaker 2: they were No.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you something what I used to assume.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people would have assumed they're white,

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Speaker 1: especially in Dallas. But I think the reforms that our

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Speaker 1: society has got to get its arms around in terms

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Speaker 1: of police and the work you're doing now, which is

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Speaker 1: a quick spoiler alert, but we're going to get to it.

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Speaker 1: All of that. I think there was a time that

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Speaker 1: by and large they were seen as racial. By and large,

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Speaker 1: they were seen as black and brown people being kept

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Speaker 1: down by a largely white police force. Right, But I'm

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Speaker 1: going to tell you something. One of the worst things

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Speaker 1: to happen in this city about a year and a

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Speaker 1: half ago, happened to Tyree Nick Nichols. I followed kay

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Speaker 1: Tyree Nichols ran from the police, got pulled over, ran

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Speaker 1: from the police. Tyree Nichols was into skateboarding and photography,

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Speaker 1: had a family that loved him. He didn't have some

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Speaker 1: long criminal record, wasn't a bangor he wasn't none of that.

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Speaker 1: Why in the hell he got pulled over and ran

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Speaker 1: for the police. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I probably can surmise why he did.

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Speaker 1: He was scared.

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Speaker 2: He was scared. Understand all that, it's the algorithm.

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Speaker 1: Get it, understand But he ran for the police.

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Speaker 2: It's that.

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Speaker 1: Well, they caught him and they beat the hell out

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Speaker 1: of him till he died. And then the paramedics showed

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Speaker 1: up and kind of flopped his body around and said, here, man,

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Speaker 1: have some water. You need to sit up and breathe.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna be all right. And the man and the

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Speaker 1: young man died. They killed him. Every officer was African America,

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Speaker 1: right right. And I will tell you we're into a

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Speaker 1: cultural issue that surpasses what used to be considered a

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Speaker 1: racial issue. Do you agree with that?

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Speaker 2: Yep, I do.

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Speaker 1: That's a black gang banger talking.

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Speaker 2: No, I do. Look, I would, I would. I was

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Speaker 2: the first when I when I was following that case,

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Speaker 2: I was, I was one of the first holland for

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Speaker 2: full accountability for that, you know, because I'm you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm just about fairness. So full accountability for that, you know.

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Speaker 2: And that was before I even knew the national at

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Speaker 2: the office. That was full accountability.

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Speaker 1: But when I heard when I when the story broke,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know or anybody, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Want, before I even knew the nationally, I was saying

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Speaker 2: full accountability just based on the facts and because because

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Speaker 2: again but going back to what we said earlier that

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Speaker 2: you know, at least, what I'm saying is he ran,

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Speaker 2: he was scared for whatever reasons, you know, whatever whatever.

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Speaker 1: He should have got he should have got caught for running, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then taken care of.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but not a death sentence. No, hell know, shouldn't be.

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Speaker 1: Even he should have even got one knuckle bomb. Look.

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Speaker 2: Coming from the streets in the hood. We I knew,

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Speaker 2: like it's into it. We noticed like you run for

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Speaker 2: the police're gonna get your butt kicked. You'll get your kicked.

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Speaker 2: That's big.

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Speaker 1: We look, can I tell you something.

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Speaker 2: About that.

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Speaker 1: Let me be real with it, because I accepted that

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Speaker 1: I'm white as white as yeah, all right, when I

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Speaker 1: was a kid where I grew up, if I run

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Speaker 1: from police, I was gonna get my buck kicked. We

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Speaker 1: knew that. Well, we wouldn't know. What I'm saying is

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Speaker 1: that ain't a black thing. That's just true. You've run

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Speaker 1: from the.

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Speaker 2: Police, you're gonna get Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's that coming.

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Speaker 1: But you don't deserve to die.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't deserve that. But you get ruffed up

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Speaker 2: a little bit, and that's okay, you know. But I'd

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Speaker 2: have been roughed up. But it didn't make me because I.

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Speaker 1: Just think it's interesting to understand that dynamic than only

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Speaker 1: a couple of decades. Urban police departments are now predominantly

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Speaker 1: or not predominantly, they have a greater percentage of black

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Speaker 1: and brown officers than they do white and and this

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Speaker 1: stuff keeps going on.

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Speaker 2: It's cultural.

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Speaker 1: It's cultural. It's cultural, no doubt about it. And we

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Speaker 1: got to get past being defensive on one side or

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Speaker 1: the other because of the color they are. We need

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Speaker 1: to start recognizing, Look, this is a cultural.

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Speaker 2: The culture might be a Look, I do police training, right,

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Speaker 2: so imagine me.

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Speaker 1: You're supposed to be talking about that.

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Speaker 2: I do police training to your point, right, And it's interesting,

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Speaker 2: right because I have my as system go in and

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Speaker 2: on the power on the projective, she would put it's

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Speaker 2: a picture of me and my white prison, white suit,

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Speaker 2: and then they got my bio on it next to it, right,

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Speaker 2: And I would I would do this intentionally. I have

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Speaker 2: rather go in set it up and I sit outside

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Speaker 2: for five minutes by the time I walk in the room,

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Speaker 2: because it's about addressing implicit biases right the class. So

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Speaker 2: by the time I walk in the room, all the

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Speaker 2: white office they read that old miss on your shirt

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Speaker 2: right before I even talk. I can feel the tension, like,

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Speaker 2: who in the hell that this guy in?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Because it because the assumption is that it's gonna be antagonistic,

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Speaker 2: it's gonna be Black lives matter, it's gonna be against

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Speaker 2: the police. Success that's the assumption going in. Halfway through.

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Speaker 2: I can feel the tension doing this as I'm talking,

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Speaker 2: because because it's not it's not antagonistic. It's not no

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Speaker 2: agenda against police it don't you know, it's none of that.

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Speaker 2: It's none of the stuff that they think is. But

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Speaker 2: I'm making sense to I'm telling them the same thing

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Speaker 2: I'm telling you. We got to check the information going

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Speaker 2: out here. We gotta understand the algorithms and blah blah blah.

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Speaker 2: That is not it's not racial stuff. It's all this

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Speaker 2: stuff has increased fear that's been fited to us by

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Speaker 2: looking at it over and over and over and over again.

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Speaker 2: So by the time the end of the end of

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Speaker 2: the the class, all these officers who were looking at

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Speaker 2: me with some cold stirs right and face red as

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Speaker 2: mug is coming up to me interior saying, man, we

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Speaker 2: gotta work together.

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Speaker 1: See that's the whole point I'm trying to get to

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Speaker 1: with all this stuff. And we're gonna pick up next

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Speaker 1: where you left off. But it is so obvious to

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Speaker 1: me the last twenty years of my life and the

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Speaker 1: work that I've done that when we drop the preconceived

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Speaker 1: notions that race is driving all this and start to

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Speaker 1: understand it's a cultural and societal thing.

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Speaker 2: Man.

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Speaker 1: Is when we start to have chances to.

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Speaker 2: Say we're on the same page with that, we on

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Speaker 2: the same page. I have a I have this turn

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Speaker 2: called redemptive activism right where it's where it's basically saying

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Speaker 2: that we have to be able to see the good.

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Speaker 2: We have to be able to give people. We have

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Speaker 2: to understand redemption right uh personal place or thing. We

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Speaker 2: can't have a condemnation mindset most of the time in

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Speaker 2: this society. It's a condenation mindset. You know, I look

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Speaker 2: at you and I condemn you based off whatever I

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Speaker 2: was in. I was in Vegas speaking at this sheriff

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Speaker 2: there and they had the sheriff coming here. The head sheriff, now,

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Speaker 2: Kevin mcmahll. That's my guy, my guy one hundred grand.

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Speaker 2: But when I first met him, right he walked in,

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Speaker 2: he had to you know, Vegas got them brown police

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Speaker 2: tous on and I looked at him and got the

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Speaker 2: sandy brown hair, and before he said a word, I said, man,

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Speaker 2: that dude, that racist is hell? I know, I said,

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Speaker 2: I said, I want to hear how long ago this

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Speaker 2: this is about two or three years ago, about four

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Speaker 2: years ago, I said that dude, racist head. I can

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Speaker 2: just look at him and tell that's my mind thinking right.

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Speaker 2: And when he when he talked, when he spoke right,

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Speaker 2: I was like those officers, I was just telling you

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Speaker 2: about right. And I had went up to him and

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Speaker 2: I said, I said, I said, I said, Kevin, sir,

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Speaker 2: you gotta apologize to you. So he looked at me.

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Speaker 2: I said, man, before you said the word, I said,

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Speaker 2: you probably the most racist moff. Yeah, I said, I apologize, man,

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Speaker 2: and me and him, me and him been locked in

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Speaker 2: every since. Man, because but that's that's how we do.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's how you've been an interviewed from a

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Speaker 1: white boy from the South with an old miss shirt on.

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Speaker 1: So you better watch yourself, all right. So now, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but we do.

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Speaker 2: That as herman beings. We judge and we condemned, just

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Speaker 2: based off. I got to get past that.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back, all right. So you in jail

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Speaker 1: and you got a baby, yeah from there all right.

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Speaker 2: I had made a commitment to myself that I wasn't

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Speaker 2: gonna leave my I didn't want my daughter to sell

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Speaker 2: what I felt because my father's away. That didn't feel good,

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Speaker 2: and I felt like I lost that. I lost that

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Speaker 2: when I got sentenced. But I went to jail being

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Speaker 2: very self introspective because when the judge sentenced me, he

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Speaker 2: said I was a minister society, right. I ain't understand that.

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Speaker 2: In my mind, I said, how did you go from

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Speaker 2: a talent and gifted student to your life speeding out

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Speaker 2: of speeding out of head and got, you know, speeding

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Speaker 2: out to a judge saying your minister society? How did

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Speaker 2: that happen? I really wanted to know the answer to that.

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Speaker 2: I was led back to the holding said. When I

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Speaker 2: looked at my mother and seeing the disc us that

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Speaker 2: she had enough face because she felt like she failed me,

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Speaker 2: that was on my mind. My daughter was on my mind.

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Speaker 2: My daughter was like I was like, man, she finna

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Speaker 2: feed what I felt and how I felt. And I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't wish that on no kid. And so I got

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Speaker 2: to prison with that in my mind. Early in my sentence, man,

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Speaker 2: I was coming out to chow hall thinking about having

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Speaker 2: these thoughts. Because when I got to prison, all of

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Speaker 2: the inmates were looking to me. They were cheering when

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Speaker 2: I came in because they said, I'm I'm finna. I'm

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Speaker 2: finna run everything.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: They wanted me no g bluff. So we started this

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Speaker 2: and now it grew it and grown so her I'm

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Speaker 2: coming in. It's almost like a celebration. But they don't

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Speaker 2: know that I'm thinking about my daughter. I'm mean, I'm

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Speaker 2: I'm introspective right now. I'm doing a whole bunch of thinking.

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Speaker 2: And so luckily for me, I was coming after chow Hall.

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Speaker 2: I remember August in nineteen ninety seven. It was it

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00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,520
Speaker 2: was like one hundred and fifteen degrees. When I was

344
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:09,320
Speaker 2: coming down, this older inmate bring Dallas day one hundred

345
00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:10,720
Speaker 2: and fifteen, so it was one hundred and thirty in

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Speaker 2: the dorms. This brother walked up to me. He was

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Speaker 2: older than me, and uh, he said, he said, this

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Speaker 2: was exact conversation he said. He said, hey, little brother,

349
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Speaker 2: I need to hogh at you. And in prison, when

350
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Speaker 2: somebody said hey, little brother, I don't need high at you,

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Speaker 2: you know, you got to figure out what that mean

352
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Speaker 2: because that's a different things. That could have been a

353
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Speaker 2: whole bunch of stuff. Right, So I got immediately, I

354
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Speaker 2: got on the defense and he said no, now, he said,

355
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Speaker 2: little brother, let me, let me just talk to you,

356
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,960
Speaker 2: he said. He said, man, I've been paying attention. I've

357
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Speaker 2: been watching you. He said. All these men in this

358
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Speaker 2: prison they paying hummage to you. They're falling out of place.

359
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Speaker 2: They'll do whatever you asked.

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Speaker 1: Them to do.

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Speaker 2: I've been watching you. He said, Look, little brother, because

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Speaker 2: I was probably I was nineteen twenty. He had to

363
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Speaker 2: be thirty. He said, if you have the ability to

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00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,880
Speaker 2: lead these guys to do wrong, he said, little brother,

365
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Speaker 2: you got the ability to lead them to do right.

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Speaker 2: He said, you're a leader. And when he said that,

367
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Speaker 2: you got to understand. My mind said at nineteen twenty

368
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,040
Speaker 2: years old, and this guy, I'm in the first time

369
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Speaker 2: in prison, i ain't been here long, and what I'm

370
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Speaker 2: dealing with and he say that to me. He said,

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Speaker 2: you've been watching me and this and that, and then

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Speaker 2: he said you're a leader. And when he said that,

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Speaker 2: it resonated with me.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: It resonated because my grandfather had once told me that.

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Speaker 2: My grandfather at once told me that that I didn't understand,

377
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Speaker 2: but it resonated for some reason with what my grandfather

378
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 2: said many many and many years early early on, and

379
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Speaker 2: when he said that, it kind of opened my eyes

380
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 2: and then he began to you know, that relationship. He

381
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 2: started to mentor me. He started to give me books

382
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Speaker 2: to read. You know, he started me on this quest

383
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,239
Speaker 2: to rates. He gave me a lot of books. When

384
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Speaker 2: I read Victor frankel Man Search for Meaning, Nathan Macall,

385
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Speaker 2: Malcolm X Instructure, I read it, Everything under the Sun.

386
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Speaker 1: I read it every It's interesting because Malcolm X.

387
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Speaker 2: Yeah, the whole prison thing. Michael changed this night. De

388
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 2: Troy ready changed this whole situation. Blah blah blah. Oh

389
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Speaker 2: now y'all, so I was, I was. I was inspired

390
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 2: by that. So I started reading, and so look, I

391
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 2: started reading so much. They had this volunteer, not a chaplain,

392
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Speaker 2: but a librarian. I'll never forget her. She was a

393
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 2: little bittish, short white lady that was a volunteer. She

394
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,880
Speaker 2: wanted to state employee. I came to the library so much.

395
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Speaker 2: Men and hub became good friends.

396
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Speaker 1: Right.

397
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 2: We would just talk about life. We just talked. She

398
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 2: saw something in me, right, and she was encouraged me.

399
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,439
Speaker 2: She would encourage me. She motivated me. Now I'm in

400
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 2: prison doing this, uh so much so that whenever the

401
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 2: prison got new books, she was sent for me. First

402
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 2: allowed me to get first DIBs, pick out what I want, folks.

403
00:22:58,359 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 2: She put it out to the rest of the for

404
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 2: the to the prison. That's how close we got in

405
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 2: those conversations. Man, and I read like probably with fourteen

406
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 2: fifteen hundred books the whole time I was in prison.

407
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: How many years I did?

408
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 2: Four years?

409
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Speaker 1: Four?

410
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I made so from the time I met Willie

411
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Speaker 2: Ray Fleming August in nineteen ninety seven until I got

412
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Speaker 2: till I got released.

413
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 1: What was your charge?

414
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Speaker 2: That charge that that officer sent me in forssion possession

415
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 2: with the tent, possession with the intended deliver that charge

416
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 2: was your Oh they gave me seven years and you

417
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 2: got out for I got in four. Yeah, but I

418
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 2: made so.

419
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 1: You had four years to read and reflect.

420
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Speaker 2: That's all I did. That's all I did. I from

421
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 2: the day I met Willie, prison became college for me.

422
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Speaker 1: I cannot believe you're saying that. We interviewed, ironically enough

423
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Speaker 1: from Las Vegas. Yeah, a guy named John Ponder.

424
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Speaker 2: That's my guy. I know John on board.

425
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: All right, Okay, Well it's funny because the guy that

426
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: you thought was a racist probably as close to John. Okay, Yeah,

427
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: I just small world anyway, he said that, uh that

428
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Speaker 1: that that federal penitentiary was it was his bible, college man,

429
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: and and the penitentiary for you was college.

430
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 2: It was Look, I would be literally anybody who's been

431
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 2: in was locked up with me doing that time. There

432
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 2: bar witness to this. I would have five six books

433
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 2: at the table. They would brothers would have to come

434
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 2: pull me from the table and say, man, you're gonna

435
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 2: bust your brain. You gotta give it a break. And

436
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 2: all day all I do is a well, look, I'm

437
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 2: gonna tell you look look in prison. And I'm not

438
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 2: kid you not Bill. I was in prison. This this

439
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 2: is the birth of this work, right. I was in prison.

440
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,120
Speaker 2: As I was educating my if, I realized a lot

441
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 2: of stuff that I didn't know. So I had this

442
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 2: insatiable critter to go find it that I didn't want

443
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 2: to not know something. So that that led me down

444
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: a lot of paths that led me reading everything under

445
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 2: the sun. And as I started to educate myself, I

446
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 2: started to see differently, right, and then I started seeing

447
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 2: the similarity of the brothers in here. You know a

448
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 2: lot of everybody in here that had dropped out of school.

449
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 2: They had these same kind of situations in their life.

450
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,959
Speaker 2: Except I started seeing that stuff right and started so

451
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 2: and so this prison segregated. It's very you know, black

452
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 2: s white messling segregator. You can't mix. And I used

453
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 2: to say to myself, like, this is crazy. We can

454
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 2: change this, right. So look, I was fortunate enough to

455
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 2: have some money on my books. This, this is the

456
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 2: birth of this work. I was fortunate enough. As I

457
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 2: started reading, I started realizing all the stuff I was wrong.

458
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: I started being accountable for everything I've done, just like

459
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 2: you said. I wasn't mad that the police put the

460
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 2: drugs on me. I had to accept the fact that

461
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 2: I put myself in that situation that caused me. I

462
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 2: accepted all that, right, and so I started saying, man,

463
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: I got to educate these other brothers, right. And so

464
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 2: I had money on my books. So at night when

465
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 2: I spread, that's when we had a big bucket of food.

466
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 2: We ain't eating out the childhod because nobody liked the

467
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 2: child food. It was customary for you to throw it away, right.

468
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 2: You just eat what the people you with. And I

469
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 2: ain't like that. I didn't understand that, you know, because

470
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 2: I eat. I'm different now. So when we would finish

471
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 2: our food.

472
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 1: We got a whole bucket.

473
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 2: I would take the food, make bowls and go around

474
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 2: the dorm to the people who weren't fortunate enough to

475
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 2: make stoke. Hey, it ain't nobody turned down no food,

476
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 2: not no spread that you made. So I would just

477
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 2: feed people. I was just feed people. And that was

478
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: against prison norms, right, but it's my stuff. I could

479
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 2: do what I want to do. And so through that

480
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: I started meeting people, right. And namely I talk about

481
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 2: this in my book, which I think is perfect for

482
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: this podcast. Is I met this guy who was the

483
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 2: He was a high ranking member of the Aren nation,

484
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 2: although a nation.

485
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 3: Right, So now look, y'all ain't even speak. Looking it

486
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 3: ain't supposed to be talking, right, We'll be right back.

487
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 2: It ain't nobody gonna if you ain't got money on

488
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: your books, you're not turning down no food. Not no food.

489
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: You just seen somebody make that they come from the store, commissary.

490
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:27,959
Speaker 1: So I do this.

491
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: I would do this to everybody. Hey man, hey, hey

492
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 2: hey hey, getting different people, you know, crips, getting them food.

493
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:35,719
Speaker 2: And it just started the conversation because the first it

494
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 2: was kind of day was skeptical, but then after why

495
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 2: they saw like they was watching men and seeing that

496
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 2: that was my heart. So I started talking to the

497
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 2: a Ron guy. Right, Hey, your name was Jeff and

498
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 2: his brother had wild his skinhead tattoos from he had

499
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 2: all of his head all over his face, had swastikles,

500
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: lightning boats, all that good stuff. But I'm educated now,

501
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 2: so I don't judge them based off what I see

502
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 2: on him, because now I know, I know differently now,

503
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: so I don't judge him about that. So we stought

504
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: that we used to have conversation, right we sit in

505
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 2: the back of the day room. I remember because my

506
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 2: people that knew me from the from you know, my

507
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,479
Speaker 2: neighborhood and all that. I remember the eyes, how they

508
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: used to look at us. And we used to be

509
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 2: in a corner. We've been in a full conversation talking

510
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 2: this my friend now uh, and they would be looking

511
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 2: at me like what the hell an tongue, what the

512
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: hell he doing back there talking about vice versa.

513
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: But we had me.

514
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 2: Cause you know, some people can't get over that point.

515
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 2: People he got, he got lightning boats on him, he

516
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 2: got swaska. I said, I don't mean nothing, I don't

517
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 2: mean nothing, but what I what I learned from those conversations, right,

518
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 2: was just like I was saying earlier, man, when I

519
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 2: was when I was a kid, and I had to

520
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 2: put on these layers, see when I had to become

521
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 2: a gang member and all that stuff. In my mind

522
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 2: as a kid, I felt like I was protecting the

523
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 2: little boy inside of me from a very very very

524
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 2: harsh environment. So I had to be I had to

525
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 2: amputate my personality and be what it said although inside

526
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 2: of me. Just like when the judge said you're a menace.

527
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 2: In my mind, I was saying, but Judge, you understand,

528
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 2: that's not really who I am, really a good person.

529
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 2: I just had to do that to survive in my neighborhood.

530
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: That was going on in my head because in my mind,

531
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 2: that's the duality that I'm talking about. That's not really

532
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 2: who we are.

533
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: How many people in jail today do you think deal

534
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: with that same do out?

535
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 2: I think it's a lot of people deal with that.

536
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 2: They just not articulated enough to articulate that. But they

537
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 2: all deal with it, right, they all deal with the

538
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 2: exact same thing. That's what I found that talking to

539
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 2: my Aron brother, what we started having the conversations, I

540
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 2: feel like I understood that we cared about the same

541
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 2: stuff that we won no different. And I realized that

542
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 2: he put all those tattoos on him because he was

543
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 2: trying to protect the little boy inside of him. He

544
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 2: didn't hate black people, he.

545
00:29:59,600 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 1: Just had to.

546
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 2: This is what he had to do to protect him

547
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 2: so he can get his stuff back out to his family.

548
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 2: And that was some that information right that opened my

549
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 2: eyes to a lot of stuff. So I stopped looking

550
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 2: at people based off off these preconceived notions that we

551
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 2: were just talking about. I started looking at people here.

552
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 2: I started looking deeper into people. So when I started

553
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 2: doing that, the crypt dude who I was probably shooting

554
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: at that, he's probably shooting at me. Now look at

555
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: him the same. I don't look at him based on

556
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 2: his money or his label. Now I'm looking for the

557
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: little boy that's inside of him, and I'm connecting with

558
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 2: that person. See, because you can't hide that person. We

559
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 2: all got that. We all put on these titles, we

560
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: all put on these monicas, we all put on this

561
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 2: stuff because we're just trying to protect the little boy

562
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 2: inside of us. But if somebody connect with the little

563
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 2: boy and say it's okay to come on that. It's okay,

564
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 2: I understand. Then you see different, Then you see the

565
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 2: humanity in people. You can begin to see the humanity

566
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: and all people when you can look like you just said,

567
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: he looked past the preconceived notions. We all have been

568
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 2: conduct to look at people through the eyes of those

569
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: preconceived notions. We constantly look at the news every night,

570
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 2: and you constans see black people on the near doing this.

571
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 2: Are you constant seeing some Trump stuff? And that becomes

572
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 2: who we become. We become that, but deep down in besides,

573
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 2: that's not who we are. That's just some stuff we

574
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 2: packed on to be accepted into whatever we It's no

575
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 2: different than me trying to be accepted into the gang

576
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 2: or to the neighborhood. Then people being accepted into these

577
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 2: ideologies and these ideas. It's not who we are as

578
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 2: human beings. It's really not, and we have to pull

579
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: back from that. We got to come back from down

580
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 2: that path and start getting in touch with humanity. When

581
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 2: we get in touch with humanity, then we're not judging,

582
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 2: we're not condemning, we're not doing that. We're trying to

583
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 2: look for ways to understand redemption and transformation. Understand people hard,

584
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 2: and we see and past what the media and what

585
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 2: people have projected for us to see.

586
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: I hear the man talking to me right now, and

587
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,479
Speaker 1: I have a hard time, in a difficult time in

588
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: my mind's eyes, seeing an eighteen year old banging. I know,

589
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: you've gotten the scratch where you beat the hell out

590
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: of somebody or they beat the hell out of you

591
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: in prison or before prison, when you're in the street.

592
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 2: I have. I've been in a situation like that, but

593
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: in prison, I was fortunate enough I didn't have that problem.

594
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: I'm talking about before. Before Yeah, I mean, if you

595
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: had friends getting shot, people shooting at each other and

596
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: everything else.

597
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: But I'm gonna tell you when that stuff was happening,

598
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: my conscience was still intact. See, I can remember. I

599
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 2: can remember times that I that I prevented people from

600
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 2: getting killed like literally I did because only because my

601
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: conscience was intact. I had my I never see for me,

602
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 2: I just put the clothes on, but the clothes never

603
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 2: became me. I have some friends who put the clothes

604
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 2: on and it became who they are. They lost theirself.

605
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 2: They never regained back.

606
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: Can you regain that back once stuff's happening.

607
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 2: You can you can. You can't reg aim at, you

608
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 2: can't regain it. I never lost conscious. I was just

609
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 2: in my mind. I was just wearing this suit.

610
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: Other than full on sociopaths.

611
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 2: Other than full on social past difference.

612
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: I'm saying, forget that there's full on social passes just evil. Right,

613
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: we ain't talking about them again. That stuff we talked about.

614
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: We talking about other things that are in jail right now,

615
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: you honestly believe with everything am in regards to what

616
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: they've done. I go on and now hardened the streets

617
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: of ben that that little boy is still inside.

618
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 2: Everybody, man, listen, I go into the prism right today

619
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 2: as we speak. I was just in the prison made

620
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: twenty first, taking the prosecutor down there to speak to

621
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 2: some brothers. Something ain't never been done. And it done

622
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: on me, I said, brothers made twenty first, nineteen eighty self.

623
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 2: I got sentenced by a prosecutor twenty four years later.

624
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 2: Here I am standing with a prosecute. It just done

625
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 2: on me to delivery all of a message of change.

626
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: Right.

627
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 2: I talked to a lot of brothers in prison. I

628
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: do my daughter, tell you you go with me. I

629
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 2: talk to those brothers, and I can see the little boy,

630
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 2: and then you feel me. I can cut through the

631
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 2: bs and get to the boy, and I see that. See,

632
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 2: they just hadn't been Nobody has been brave enough to

633
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 2: say the stuff that I say. I'm brave enough to

634
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: say it. I denounced my gang while I was in prison.

635
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 2: That's something you just don't I wouldn't advise nobody that,

636
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 2: looking back in hindsight, but I denounced my gang while

637
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 2: I was in prison because I said to myself, and

638
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 2: that's it. I said to myself, if I was crazy

639
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 2: enough to represent this and it could have took my life,

640
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: then I'm gonna be just as crazy to represent this,

641
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 2: even if it have to take my life. I'm doing

642
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 2: something right. I denounced my gang in prison. I'm just

643
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 2: brave enough to say this stuff right. But I believe,

644
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 2: I really believe. It's a lot of brothers, it's a

645
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 2: lot of sisters who are incarcerated, who are not as articulate,

646
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 2: but they that's not who they are. They just need

647
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 2: somebody to say to the little boy and little girl

648
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 2: and then come on, it's okay.

649
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: Well, what's the same place you did time? Beat?

650
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 2: Oh one, you and George Bato one you maximum security

651
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 2: on it beat o one.

652
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,919
Speaker 1: So you graduate from the University of bed Oh one

653
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 1: four year degree.

654
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: Yes, indeed in psychology with a mind in philosophy.

655
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 1: I got it. Yeah. And then tell me how you

656
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: got from that to urban specialists.

657
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 2: Man, I started to work in prison. Right before I

658
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 2: got out of prison, I had this idea that I said,

659
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 2: I want to go back to my neighborhood with this

660
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 2: new information. It was kind of like Plato in the

661
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: Republican We talked about the cave and he said, the

662
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 2: one dude who escaped and come back to the cave,

663
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 2: and he's trying to convince the people who never left. Hey, man,

664
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 2: these things that we got proficient in naming, I understand

665
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 2: the real form. I understand the real that's me. I'm

666
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 2: that guy. I'm that guy. He said, imagine if you.

667
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: In order you evoked Plato in this conversation. Well done, sir,

668
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: I'm that guy. I went.

669
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 2: I went back into the cave. So I looked at

670
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 2: myself as going back into the cave to those people

671
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 2: that's bound and saying, look what we got proficient at.

672
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,240
Speaker 2: That ain't what it is. I'm talking about the streets

673
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 2: talking about this. We got good at the streets. We

674
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 2: got good at the streets. It's not mainstream society. It's

675
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 2: bad information. It don't lead none to destruction and death.

676
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 2: Let me let me take you. Let me take you

677
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 2: to mainstream society. Let me show you how to be

678
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 2: an asset and a productive and a tax was a

679
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 2: paying citizen. Let me let me show you what they

680
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 2: looked like. Because they told us wrong, they gave us

681
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 2: some wrong information. I'm here to tell you here, I'm

682
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 2: Paul Revered. Hey, y'all got the wrong information. I'm trying

683
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: to wake you up right now. The bridge is coming,

684
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 2: so listen. So that's me right now, that's me. That's

685
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 2: me to the neighborhoods right now. So I'm wagging people

686
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 2: up saying hey, listen, said listen, it's okay to come

687
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 2: on this side.

688
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: Right.

689
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 2: And so to your question, so I said to myself,

690
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 2: I wanna go back to my neighborhood and make sure

691
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 2: young people don't choose or have that duality, be able

692
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 2: to articulate that in a way that people understanding and

693
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 2: represent it, stand up for these individuals redemption and transformation.

694
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 2: And so I was released, and I never forget. When

695
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 2: I released, the brothers told me, they said, man, you're

696
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 2: gonna go back to the neighborhood. It's in the numbers.

697
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 2: You're gonna go back. You're gonna you're gonna come back

698
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 2: to prison probably two years because you're gonna have an

699
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 2: X on your back. You're not gonna beab to get

700
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 2: people leave prison do in our country, right, they say,

701
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: you're gonna accept the Las Vegas because of John John Ponda. Yeah,

702
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 2: they said you're gonna come back. You're gonna you're gonna

703
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: blah blah blah because you got a X on your back.

704
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 2: And I looked them dudes in the eyes without blink

705
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 2: and I said, Man, if the X, it's what get

706
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: me out of opportunities, And I'm gonna spend the rest

707
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 2: of my life making the X be what get me opportunists.

708
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 2: And I left prison and I never looked back. Connected

709
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 2: with old Marsha War, we did the first gang peace

710
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 2: treaty in my neighborhood, Fraser Courts, and from that we

711
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 2: began to work in the schools, We worked in the

712
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 2: juvenile department, We worked in every facet of community that

713
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 2: you can think of, hiring, getting people hired working with

714
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 2: baby Mama, Baby Dad. We did everything right to uh

715
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:20,720
Speaker 2: fast forward to now.

716
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 1: Go hang on okay, Omar founded Urban Specialist, Yes, and

717
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,919
Speaker 1: then he passed Yes, and then you became the president. Yes.

718
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 2: One of the most smartest uh impact.

719
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: Tell me about him, son.

720
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: Perceptive individ was only three years older than me. And

721
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 2: when I met him, he had so much wisdom.

722
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: And how did you meet him?

723
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,439
Speaker 2: I met him because I was in the day room

724
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 2: and he came on in the day room. I was

725
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 2: in prison in my neighborhood, Fraser Courts, and he was

726
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,919
Speaker 2: with two of my cousins, who was in a gang

727
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 2: with me, started a gang with me, and he was

728
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 2: talking about ganging events and the sound of his voice

729
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: and what he was saying was in tune with what

730
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 2: was happening to me in prison.

731
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: Right.

732
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 2: I identified the sound, and so I wrote my cousin

733
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 2: and said, man, whoever that guy that y'all went on

734
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 2: the ners, connect me to him, whoever he is, connect

735
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 2: because he because he in the right vein. But see,

736
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 2: I didn't know at the time. They were telling him, Hey,

737
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 2: if you want to do anything in his neighborhood, you

738
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 2: got to get with our cousin. They were talking about

739
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 2: me in prison, and they didn't know I was gonna

740
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: come out. They didn't know what I was doing in

741
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 2: prison because I had shut down the outside world and

742
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 2: was really focusing on my transformation. They didn't know I

743
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 2: was doing this stuff. And so when me and Omar met,

744
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 2: he was telling me about what he planned to do

745
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 2: and his ideas and all that good stuff. And it

746
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 2: was the same. It was the same cadence. And I

747
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 2: gave him some of my types up in prison and

748
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 2: he read it. I remember he did, just like this.

749
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 2: He looked over at me. Read some morning, he looked

750
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 2: over at me. I didn't know him, he didn't know me.

751
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 2: We used the exact same words to describe what we

752
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 2: were doing, identical, and he looked at me and he said,

753
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: he say, ain't no need to recreate in a will.

754
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 2: Let's go to work. He taught me. He was the

755
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 2: first person. He was the second person who believed in

756
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 2: me as a person, right regardless to what I had

757
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 2: first exactly, he was the first one to say, you

758
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 2: have value regardless of what you've been through your past.

759
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 2: Omar was the free world edition of the guy that

760
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 2: I met at the childh who said to me, you

761
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 2: have value regardless of what you've been through.

762
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: And that was.

763
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: Different, right, and he really believed that, he really you know,

764
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 2: it was just that touch, It was that information, It

765
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 2: was that wisdom that he had. That and the lessons

766
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 2: that I learned riding with him twenty one year of

767
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 2: shotgun and us talking every single day about how to

768
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 2: better our community, our conversations for twenty one years about

769
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 2: how to better community, how to better people, how to

770
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 2: increase relations, et cetera, et cetera.

771
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 1: So in short, at the beginning urban specialist, it's really

772
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: about gang intervention to get young men to think about

773
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 1: things a different way.

774
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 2: Right, using people with lived experience, using the old usion,

775
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 2: using ogg. We was training OG's to say, look, you

776
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 2: got influence. If you get yourself together, you can change

777
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,280
Speaker 2: the generation of young people following you.

778
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 1: You guys even negotiated a truth betting blood and the crips.

779
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, we did. We had over two hundred well, yes,

780
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 2: two hundred and seventy seventy young people who sign a

781
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 2: gang peace treaty who would add war with each other.

782
00:41:47,200 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. So Omar passes, you call him

783
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 1: Bishop Omar is his name bishop or is it bishop

784
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 1: of title?

785
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? Bishop of title. He was Omar when I first

786
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: met him, but as he started growing in the ministry

787
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 2: because he was a past he was a you pastor,

788
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 2: and I just came a pastor and then became a bishop.

789
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: All right, yeah, so you took over, still kept doing

790
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: these things. But then what I think is phenomenal. You

791
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: met Eddie Garcia. Oh yeah, and to me, this is

792
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 1: the magic of all of it.

793
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 2: Man, Eddie Garcia, Chief Edi Garcia. Let me put some

794
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 2: respect on his name.

795
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: He is.

796
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,240
Speaker 2: He's the man man. He one of the best police

797
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 2: chiefs in the country right now.

798
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: He's the police chief in Dallas, the police.

799
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 2: Chief in Dallas. When he came to Dallas. He came

800
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 2: to Dallas right when Omar passed, and so I didn't

801
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 2: never meet him. He went around and met a lot

802
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 2: of organizations who were doing the work, who they told

803
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: him doing the work. But when Omar passed, I took

804
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 2: a sabbatica. I was kind of I was grieving, So

805
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 2: I was off the scene dealing with that, right because

806
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 2: that was really tough on me. And so when I

807
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 2: finally came back up for aeron me and Chief Chief Ediguarcia.

808
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 2: We met, and we met. It was good. It was

809
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 2: a good conversation. And and and he told some friends

810
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 2: city leaders. Uh, he don't think I know what he

811
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 2: told some people. He said, why y'all never told me

812
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 2: about anytngue lucky and everything, especially like why y'all keep

813
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 2: that from me?

814
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 1: Right, here's a quote from him. Yeah, when he was

815
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:43,399
Speaker 1: trying to figure you out. Yeah, you said, lawlessness, no

816
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: matter where it's found, cannot be tolerated, whether it's an

817
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: officer with a gun and a badge or a gang

818
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 1: member with a gun and a rag, we have to

819
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 1: hold them all accountable. From there, I was all ears

820
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: to what he had to say. Such, Chief Garcia, can

821
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:00,399
Speaker 1: you tell me about that? Oh?

822
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was because I was telling the chief man

823
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 2: that at the end of the at the end of

824
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 2: the day, it's about accountability for everybody, because I think

825
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 2: all too often when when community members connect with law enforcement,

826
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 2: they come from a slanted anti police perspective, and it

827
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 2: can also be seen as covering and condoning for the

828
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 2: people who commit crimes, break the law in our neighborhood.

829
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 2: I want to be emphatic with Chief that I'm on

830
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 2: the side of safety of law in order public safety

831
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 2: that I don't make no excuses and I don't cover

832
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: for people who break the law. They must be held

833
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 2: accountable and that has to transcend across the board with

834
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 2: officers as well. And I said, when you do that,

835
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 2: when you have a standard that says we hold everybody

836
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 2: accountable if they break the law. Going back to what

837
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 2: I just told you about my story, we hold anybody

838
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 2: accountable that breaks the law. We got to hold them accountable.

839
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 2: It sets a proceedings and it sets a standard that wins.

840
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 2: You try us between all the people who want to

841
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 2: do right on this side of the of the al

842
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 2: and all the people that want to do right on

843
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 2: this side of that because it's people, contrary to popular belief,

844
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 2: and neighborhoods who want criminals and people who commit crime

845
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,760
Speaker 2: prosecuted just as much as the people on this side.

846
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 2: Oftentimes they voices don't get heard, and so it's my

847
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 2: job to represent them. Because at the height of George Floyd,

848
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 2: my neighborhood did surveys, and four neighborhoods we did over

849
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 2: two thousand surveys asking particular questions about law enforcement and

850
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 2: police and ninety three percent of the respondent said that

851
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 2: they wanted more police in their neighborhood, that they loved

852
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 2: the police. That was contradictory to what the talking here

853
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 2: is on seeing INN and MSN and all the news

854
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 2: stations were saying. So I got to represent those people

855
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 2: in communities who are saying, now, we don't hate the police,

856
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 2: we ain't mad at the police, DA da DA. Regardless

857
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 2: of all of the stuff that was happening in the

858
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 2: national news, the Tyresse Nichols and A maud Aubrey, Breonna Taylor,

859
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 2: regardless of that, they were still saying, Now we're not

860
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 2: saying defund the police or do away with the police.

861
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 2: We're saying increase the police. And so it was my

862
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 2: job to represent those people. And then the second thing

863
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 2: is I told Chief Garcia that when we first met

864
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 2: that I understand that some people in my neighborhood, Chief,

865
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 2: they need a prison ministry to get right. And that's

866
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 2: all I had to say. He understood what I was saying.

867
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 2: I said, they need a prison ministry to get right.

868
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 2: So I'm not protecting people. Some people got to go

869
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,399
Speaker 2: to prison to change, and I understand that, and I'm

870
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 2: not protecting those people, and I think that was that

871
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 2: there solidified our relationship and the fact that you know,

872
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 2: I you know, one of the things I always say

873
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 2: is that in order to get public safety, you gotta

874
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 2: have a relationship between law enforcement community and has a

875
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 2: bit real relationship, and that relationship can exist and thrive

876
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 2: in this climate right here. We just gotta run out

877
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 2: the voices that put us against each other, because again,

878
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 2: it's people in the neighborhood. It's great police officers. I

879
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 2: deal with them all the time. Who gets swept in

880
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 2: by the narrative? Imagine a black police officer in this narrative,

881
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 2: in that narrative, George Floyd narrative, who became a police

882
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 2: officer to protect their community and rid their community of criminals.

883
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 2: But then when they come to their community, they get

884
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 2: met with hostivity because it's a narrative that's saying all

885
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 2: police is bad. Who's talking for that officer. It's my

886
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 2: job to speak for that office. Who's talking for the

887
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 2: person in the community, who's saying, nah, I'm not saying

888
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 2: to defund the police. I'm saying I need police because

889
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 2: I know police in my neighborhood gonna keep me safe.

890
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 2: That's gonna hit me out. So I gotta speak for that.

891
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,760
Speaker 2: I gotta speak for ultimately, Yes, I gotta bridge that gap.

892
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 1: So in being that bridge, you said something that is

893
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,879
Speaker 1: really interesting. I've talked to WHO a lot. Memphis has

894
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 1: a lot of conversation about growing our police department and also,

895
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: you know, all of the same thing every city does.

896
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 1: I think the people on the quote defund the police

897
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 1: side of things did themselves a really really really injustice

898
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 1: because their marketing and their phraseology sucked. Defund the police,

899
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: I could I could almost understand. Can you imagine the

900
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: police retrain the police out to the police. But it's funny,

901
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 1: but you said, because I've heard that over and over

902
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 1: again that look, the truth is where my neighborhood is.

903
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: You know, I am dealing with what kids with kids

904
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: and families are doing, where the projects are. They're the

905
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: last people that don't want law in order. I mean,

906
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: they're the ones that are truly the victims of the

907
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:09,439
Speaker 1: greatest amount of crime.

908
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 2: There's some decent people in these neighborhood I just did it.

909
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 2: Some neighborhoods here in Memphis. It's decent people in these

910
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:18,839
Speaker 2: neighborhood that exists I'm just saying that on the way

911
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 2: here is they exist everywhere. Oftentimes they voices don't get

912
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 2: put in the equation. It's always narrative driven on one

913
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 2: side of another. But the people who are decent, people

914
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 2: who want a honest living, who want to be protected

915
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:39,280
Speaker 2: and feel safe, they are often overlooked because of these

916
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 2: talking heads who say I speak for them, and we

917
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 2: got to pump them up.

918
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: So urban specialists basically started with trying to go in

919
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: to cry to gang ridden neighborhoods and give gang members

920
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: an idea in a different way of looking self and

921
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: reach that little boy. What you still do, but now

922
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,439
Speaker 1: it is morphed into your partnering with the police. Yes,

923
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: to bridge the gap between law enforcement and communities that

924
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 1: have in some cases righteous fear of law enforcement. But

925
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: get one another to see each other as human beings

926
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: first rather than the badge and the neighborhood they're from,

927
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 1: and basically have all of them unlock their little boys

928
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:35,240
Speaker 1: and girls.

929
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 2: Man, that's exactly what we're doing. That's exactly what everyone

930
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 2: specialist does. It's it's reminiscent of Oh one we went

931
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 2: to Russia. We've summoned over the rush. They have rush

932
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: with their gangs a couple of years ago, and we

933
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,239
Speaker 2: had this guy who was out of interpret His name

934
00:50:55,320 --> 00:51:00,840
Speaker 2: was Sasha. Sasha was a great interpreter. When I was

935
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 2: talking to my Russian counterpoints, it's almost like I was

936
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 2: talking directly to them on how Sasha was interpreting the feelings,

937
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 2: the emotions, et cetera, et cetera. Right, Urban Specialists exists

938
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 2: to be those interpreters for these conversations. Oftentimes you need

939
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 2: people who can say, who can interpret in a way

940
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 2: to the other side that they say, Man, I feel that,

941
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 2: I understand that without judgment, right, and so Urban especially

942
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 2: exists to do that. And so we we work with

943
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 2: Chief Guard Sea, we work on our focus. We do

944
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:37,360
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff with the dpd UH, namely the

945
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 2: focus the terrence, which is that's targeting individuals who are,

946
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 2: by the metrics, are more most likely to commit crime,

947
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 2: to reoffend. Right, who best to talk to that, to

948
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 2: that group of people than somebody like me former game game,

949
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 2: some might have been to prison. Who best to talk

950
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 2: to that game to to that individual? So so relatability

951
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 2: and you got credibility and credibility and were hiring those

952
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 2: individuals and we're giving them services. So we got that.

953
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 2: We got an entrepreneur. We're teaching urban entrepreneurship to young

954
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 2: people and not just young people, older people as well,

955
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,959
Speaker 2: getting them their business together. We have our USC three

956
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 2: Community Collaborator, Community Collaborative Change make a meeting where we

957
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:25,800
Speaker 2: bring in law enforcement, business, social entrepreneurs, nonprofits. Oh Jesus

958
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 2: got them allel in the room. Because we believe it's

959
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 2: magic when you bring people together in proximities. It's it's

960
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,760
Speaker 2: easy for me to judge you Bill from my safe space.

961
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 2: It's easy to do that. But when I get to

962
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,720
Speaker 2: know you up close personally, we talk and having conversations

963
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 2: and I know you and you know me. See, it

964
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 2: ain't easy for somebody to say, Man, Bill ain't Now

965
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:47,839
Speaker 2: you can't say that Bill my friend. I know Bill

966
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:52,359
Speaker 2: and Bill good people. But that's the proximity. Our capability

967
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 2: is bringing people together because we believe when we bring

968
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 2: people together, magic happen. And we believe everybody has something

969
00:52:59,000 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 2: to contribute.

970
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: Can you give me some measurables? Oh yeah, but you're

971
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:04,240
Speaker 1: a fact man.

972
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 2: We look, we didn't help. We didn't help over twenty

973
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,399
Speaker 2: thousand people since we've been in existence, and that's all

974
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 2: that information on our website. We've catalyzed over twelve hundred

975
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 2: ogs in the last two years. What catalyzed, well, we

976
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 2: twelve hundred twelve hundred OG's all over Doubllas. We just

977
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 2: did a class Tuesday night where we had oh we

978
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 2: do this class, we bring them into our network.

979
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 1: My understanding is Dallas's crime rate is one of the

980
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 1: few large urban cities that the crime rate has actually

981
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,879
Speaker 1: dropped right as a result of what you and Chief

982
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:38,879
Speaker 1: Garcia are doing.

983
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, and and we hope we can duplicate

984
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 2: that around.

985
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 1: That's my question. Is scalable.

986
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 2: It's definitely scalable. But again, it's having conversations. It's having

987
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 2: conversations with community and law enforcement in the way that

988
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 2: things seen these conversations a lot of time. The conversations

989
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 2: can't be in platitudes. It can't be in these relationships.

990
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 2: It's not really we got to be able to sit down,

991
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 2: like how man and you did this podcast and when

992
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 2: you say, Man, I'm gonna tell you something, See, I

993
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:06,439
Speaker 2: want you to tell me something called You can't tell

994
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 2: me nothing. You can't be honest with me and give

995
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 2: it to me. How you feel it without editing, then

996
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 2: you ain't being my friend. But if you say un

997
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 2: tongue man, I'm gonna shoot something at you. Man, I'm

998
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 2: gona see how you're gonna have this and it's highest

999
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,760
Speaker 2: coming out, then you my friend because I know well.

1000
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 1: I guess you were you and our friends because you

1001
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: handled it judifully. Somebody wants to support I mean, gosh,

1002
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 1: there's nineteen thousand things somebody might want to do. But

1003
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 1: if they want to support urban Specialists, if they want

1004
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: to get in touch with you and say, hey, man,

1005
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 1: this needs to happen in Memphis. If they want to

1006
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 1: grow it, where do they find a tongue and urban specialists?

1007
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm gonna give out my personal my personal social

1008
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 2: media handles and tongue speaks. That's a N T O

1009
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 2: N G speaks. It's p E A K S. That's

1010
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 2: on our social media or the organization is at the

1011
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 2: E H E Urban Specialists on our social media or www.

1012
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 2: Dot Urban Specialists with a S at the end of

1013
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 2: specialist dot org. All you have to do is reach out.

1014
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 2: If you reach out, I promise we're gonna connect. And

1015
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 2: then lastly, but like I got to say this, I

1016
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 2: know you probably have something else, but you gotta go

1017
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 2: get the book, A Redemptive Path Forward. Anywhere they sell books,

1018
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:22,759
Speaker 2: I promise you you got somebody in course rate of

1019
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 2: you got somebody's doing community work. I promised them. Once

1020
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:28,320
Speaker 2: they read their book, they gonna understand that's the blueprint.

1021
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 1: A Redemptive Path Forward. The subtitle from a cart incarceration

1022
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:37,280
Speaker 1: to a life of activism and Tom Lucky looking clean

1023
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: on the front of this thing.

1024
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:40,880
Speaker 2: That's what I grew with her.

1025
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1026
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 1: I don't know you. I think your publisher had you

1027
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 1: clean up. But now you uh Paul Revere with drugs.

1028
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 2: Man, let me sign that this is your book. I

1029
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 2: appreciate you, man. I appreciate you.

1030
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 1: Man.

1031
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 2: I studied you on social media, so I already knew

1032
00:55:58,760 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 2: how this.

1033
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 1: Interview Anti Lucky everybody. Urban Specialists changing lives in Dallas

1034
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 1: from a smart little boy who got sucked up into

1035
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 1: the streets and became the OG, now not just a

1036
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 1: gang member, but leading a gang, four years in prison, running,

1037
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 1: now running an organization called Urban Specialists that have changed

1038
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 1: their lives. So far, of twenty thousand people in Dallas

1039
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 1: have gotten twelve hundred former ogs into legitimate lifestyle has

1040
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 1: built a relationship with the Dallas Police Apartment, and Chief

1041
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: Garcia is changing lives and one of the few urban

1042
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 1: cities where crime is actually dropping as a result of this.

1043
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,760
Speaker 1: If that is not the story of what a normal

1044
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 1: human being can do when the employees is discipline, discipline

1045
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 1: and his abilities, whereas passion is to change the world,

1046
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 1: a normal god doing extraordinary stuff.

1047
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 2: Man, we just a normal guys.

1048
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 1: Man. Man, thanks from coming from Dallas and telling me

1049
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 1: your story. Thanks for being with me. It is phenomenal

1050
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 1: and I am not at all surprised that you and

1051
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 1: John Ponder are tight because y'all cut from the same way. Man,

1052
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 1: with you, my guy, and I appreciate you being here, bro.

1053
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 2: Thank you, man, I appreciate you. Thank you for what

1054
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 2: you do.

1055
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 1: I enjoyed it, yes indeed, and thank you for joining

1056
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 1: us this week. If Anton, Lucky or other guests have

1057
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 1: inspired you in general, or better yet, to take action

1058
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 1: by donating to urban specialists, bringing and talk to your

1059
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 1: community to help empower local change makers there, or something

1060
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 1: else entirely, please let me know. I'd love to hear

1061
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 1: about it. You can write me anytime at Bill at

1062
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 1: Normalfolks dot us, and I promise I will respond. If

1063
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,919
Speaker 1: you enjoyed this episode, y'all, please share it with friends

1064
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 1: and on social subscribe to the podcast, rate and review it.

1065
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 1: Join the army at normalfolks dot us. Consider becoming a

1066
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 1: Premium member. There all of these things that will help

1067
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 1: us grow an army of normal folks. Thanks to our producer,

1068
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 1: Ironlight Labs, I'm Bill Courtney. I'll see you next week.