WEBVTT - CZM Rewind: Stalkerware ft. maia arson crimew 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:04.920 All Zone Media. 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:08.360 Welcome back to It Could Happen here, the podcast that's 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:11.520 happening here in your ear. And one of the things 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:16.320 that we love talking about here is a critical ingredient 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:22.000 towards creeping authoritarianism, towards growing corporate control and surveillance over 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:24.840 all of our lives, which is of course technology that 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:29.040 makes it even easier to monitor you than it already is. 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:32.760 We're not talking primarily about like the government monitoring you, 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.000 because they can, you know, do stuff like just pull 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:38.240 your phone data from a you know which cell towers 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:40.760 is pinged. We're talking about the kind of stuff that 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:45.000 allows basically whoever can get an app on your phone 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.880 to track and stalk you. And Yeah, I'm going to 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:52.360 first introduce Mia Wong. Mia, welcome to the show that 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:53.200 you also host. 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:55.520 Yes, I'm here. 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:57.800 So what are we what are we talking about today? 0:00:57.800 --> 0:00:59.279 And who are we talking with? 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.040 Yeah, so we are talking about stalker wear, which is 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:05.960 the sort of broad name for the category of software 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:08.839 that Robert's been talking about. And we are talking about 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:11.480 someone who hacked, well. 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:13.319 A stoker ware stalker. 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:14.199 Yeah. 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:18.880 One of the stockerware companies, my Aris and Crime, the 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:22.479 fame hacker, the no fly list. Yeah, returning guests, always 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:23.320 happy to have you on. 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:29.199 Yeah, always happy to be on. Yeah. 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:33.479 So I think I think, I don't know. I think 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:37.280 there's a real tendency among and I see this among 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:40.240 leftists a lot, for kind of good reasons and kind 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:45.480 of not good reasons to really only focus on state 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:50.040 and like large corporate actors in terms of surveillance. And 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:51.360 that's a mistake. 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:53.000 Yeah, totally. 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:56.760 Yeah, And so I guess I guess the place where 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:58.640 I want to start before we get into the specific 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:02.040 company that you do, is it still called owned? 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:03.400 I can't. 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:07.280 It's fine to call it owned or pond or whatever. 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:10.280 I still do that. Sometimes people get confused. 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:13.320 But yeah, yeah, But before we get into that, I 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:15.160 want to I want to ask you a bit because 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:18.239 you've done a lot of sort of I guess you 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:22.200 could call it research, both actual research wise and then 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:25.800 in terms of poking around their servers. 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:30.440 Research and journalism and whatever. Do you want to call it? Yeah, axic? 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:34.640 Yeah, So I wanted to just start off by asking 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:37.000 if you can give sort of like a brief summary 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:38.320 of what stalker ware is. 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:43.440 Yeah. So, so stalker ware like as a category, encompasses 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:46.239 like a number of different types of apps. Most of them, 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:50.280 like on the service, advertise themselves as like parental control software, 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:53.960 which is already bad enough. Just to be clear that 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.919 there's like advertised for like spying on your children's phone, 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:00.000 like seeing their location in real time, seeing their mass 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:04.040 such as that they receive any photo they take. Ostensibly 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:07.320 this is to prevent bullying and help with them when 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:10.000 they get depressed because they don't trust you and talk 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:13.560 to you for whatever reason. But obviously a lot of 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:17.119 these are then furthermore, because that's like that, sure, that's 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:20.480 a like target audience, that's a demographic you can advertise too. 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:24.680 But then there's this even bigger potential target demographic of 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:28.480 people who are insecure in their relationship, mostly men, not 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:31.280 only men, but who are then solved this idea that 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.640 they can use software like this for stalking their partner, 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.200 for finding out if they are cheating on you, things 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:39.839 like that, which is obviously an even bigger problem, which 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:42.640 once again not to discount the problems that's spying on 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:45.640 your children. It's already like bad enough, but yeah, lead 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.920 this leads to this whole big industry of these apps 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:53.720 being used by partners against each other like also just 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:57.400 by people, like against anyone in the in their surroundings 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:00.960 that they suspect might be doing something, might be like 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:04.800 talking behind their backs. It often kind of turns into 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:07.960 like it obviously turns into this obsessive thing, especially if 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.880 you're solved this idea that this this app can magically 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:14.080 solve like interpersonal issues, like with anything that sells you 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:16.800 this magic idea of being able to solve any problem. 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:19.599 That these people start kind of spying on everyone in 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:23.839 their like circles to some of them, like not everyone, 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:25.760 most like a lot of people on the spying like 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.479 their partner or like their child or whatever. But it 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:31.760 often like spirals out of control into this like controlling 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:34.479 everyone in their surroundings, knowing what everyone is up to 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.320 where they are, and spending like hundreds of dollars a 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:40.680 month on doing so. And yeah, that's pretty fucked up 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:41.560 if you ask me. 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:42.880 Yeah. 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:43.240 Yeah. 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:45.599 One of the things that's interesting too. It's also in 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:48.040 a lot of cases illegal. This is going to vary, 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:50.000 you know, from country to country, in state to state, 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:52.520 but in the US there are states like California, which 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:55.240 gets pointed out in the very good Tech Crunch investigation 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:58.920 on truth spy where there are really strict laws that 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:00.919 journalists like you have to a bias to win, you 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:04.400 can record someone that these these apps absolutely break. 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:07.400 Yes, it's specifically a thing that doesn't. Most of these 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:09.440 app will have like a disclaimer at the bond that 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:12.400 is like this might be illegal and your jurisdiction and 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.520 please ask for consent before doing this, and then they 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:17.599 have lots of tutorials on how to install this in 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:21.400 someone's device without their consent. Yeah, but it's like always 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:23.680 like a we do not take any like we we 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:26.400 it's not our fault if you break the law basically, 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:29.560 which obviously, like it's so far not a lot of 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:31.920 this has been challenged in court. But I don't think 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:35.599 this would hold up too long. I'm not, but I 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:37.960 don't think just saying we make a product to do 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:39.960 crimes with if you do crimes of it, it's not 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:43.800 I mean it works for the gun industry. So yeah. 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:47.120 The difference is that like the with the gun industry, 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.560 it's a product where there is a legal and an illegal, 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:51.680 like clear way to do it. 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.279 The thing with stocker were as well is that like 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:56.440 a lot of them will also explicitly say the only 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:58.800 real use of this we allow you to do to 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:02.400 use it for is to surveill or child, which unfortunately 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:05.960 is legal in most jurisdictions because children are property of 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.360 their parents. Yeah quotes because I do not agree with that, but. 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:12.880 Yeah, it's one of those things where people using it, 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.760 like someone installing an app on their axes or their 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:20.480 their partner's phone or whatever without consent, could very easily 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:23.760 would lose any court case, whether or not the company 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.080 would get in trouble. I think it's going to rely 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:28.840 a lot on the stuff the videos they're posting about, 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:30.760 like how to put how to get these apps on 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:33.120 people's phones without them knowing, but like they do have 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.120 that out with like no, it's just for surveilling children, which. 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.760 Is great, and for anyone else you need consent or whatever. 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:40.560 But I think it is important, yeah, to point this 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.480 out very early for anyone who's listening to this because 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:46.400 they think they might have stock aver on their phones, 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:48.640 or because they know they have stock averre on their phones. 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:52.440 You can use this in a domestic abuse case, well immediately, 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:56.400 this is explicit proof that abuse is happening, no matter 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:59.480 anything else, because like that's the thing generally with domestic 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:03.840 abuse case, it's really hard to prove abuses happening. Stalkerware 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.200 and any other type of spying device like also physical 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:11.120 GPS trackers and stuff that is immediate proof that there 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:14.560 is a there's controlling behavior going on, that you are 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.800 being spied on. This it cannot only be used and 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:22.640 there's explicit admissible evidence. This is also usually like makes 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:26.120 cases first like not for you like it just yeah, 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:30.640 it like can potentially add charges and make it more serious, 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:33.520 and that it can help making cops give a shit 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:36.920 about like abuse, which yeah, I hate that I need 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:39.400 to say that, but yeah, it's like it makes it 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:42.360 more serious because there's like spyware and whatever. 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:44.800 It's easy evidence first off, like you can prove they're 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:46.760 spying on you, and second, if you are in one 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:49.160 of the states where that violates the law, then you 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.120 can immediately say this person is breaking the law, like 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:54.440 this is we don't have to debate whether or not 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:56.160 they've they've crossed the line. 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.520 Yeah, And even if it doesn't directly break the law 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:02.480 to spy on someone on a partner like it, depending 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:04.440 on the on the on the region, it can be 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:07.360 kind of a hazy thing, especially if it's a device 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:10.160 you might co own if it's like a state where 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:12.600 you where with like code possession or whatever. In the US, 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:14.880 I do not know US law very much around this, 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:18.040 but yeah, there's like laws like that. But usually still 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.200 the fact that you're being spied on can be used 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.440 as proof for other abuse things you might be alleging, 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.480 because it's like hard proof that something is happening. And 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:30.480 also usually these companies will somewhat have to respond to 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:32.280 some point US, so they will have to give out 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:35.360 like who that account on there is behind like the 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:37.760 spying on your phone for some of them, we can 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:40.200 also there's also tools that help you find out who 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:43.480 is spying on you, or there's like someone with forensic 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:44.400 background can help. 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.480 Yeah, and I think people. One thing we should note 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:51.280 is that if you're kind of curious, has my device 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:54.079 been infected by some of these tools, one the one 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.840 that we've been talking about most truth spy. If you 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:59.880 go to that tech Crunch article or to my art 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:01.960 it also has a link yet or to ye to 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.040 your article on your website. There's a tool you can 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:06.959 use where you it'll tell you how to get your 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:11.520 im SI I think I am I Yeah, which you 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:13.600 just dial a thing on your phone and it gives 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:17.400 you that number. It's basically how you identify specific bones 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:20.000 and you plug that in. It will let you know 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.559 if your device has been compromised. 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:25.600 Now like December last year up until there is the 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:28.800 data and if you yeah, it can pretty much tell 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.520 you if you've been spined on using this specific tool 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.120 until then. For other stuff, there's also guides, usually on 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:37.720 TechCrunch and otherwise also on Stop stockerbar dot ARC, which 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.560 is the US Coalition against stalker Bear, and also just 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:45.120 generally I think a lot of like more local anti stocking, 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:47.760 anti abuse works are not as informed yet as they 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:50.680 should be, but there's still a good point also to 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.959 reach out to or like yeah, yeah. 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:56.800 One of my questions about truth Spy that I'm hoping 0:09:56.840 --> 0:10:00.280 you can answer is I know that you can like 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:04.079 text messages get transferred via it, your call records, all 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:06.280 that kind of stuff, get and who you were calling. 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.840 Does that include messages for like encrypted apps like Signal 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:11.800 or is that not accessible through this? 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:14.800 It depends, Like for some of these, it will like 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.960 get signal messages, what's the messages and everything generally by 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:22.640 reading the notification contents because like from notifications, you know, 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:26.199 like what messages are have been like received. Sometimes it 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:28.320 will only then have the received messages and not the 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:31.040 set messages. Often these also include like a key logger 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:35.640 component that maps messages then sent back as well. It 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:39.400 depends a lot what these apps collect, but for most 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.000 of them, also the collection for other texting apps is 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:45.040 usually kind of broken. None of these apps are really 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:48.720 well maintained. They're mostly just quick cash graps, yeah, are 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:51.160 there to maintain features usually don't really work. 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:54.960 And it seems like based on that, one thing people 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:57.120 can do outside of checking to see if their device 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:02.559 has been compromised, is do stuff like turn off notifications 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:06.040 for appsling Signal, Right, and that's that's actually just generally 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:10.719 good advice. Notifications are a compromise of the security that 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:13.800 Signal offers. Don't have them enabled, you know. 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:16.680 Yeah, or at the very least disabled them on the 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:18.760 lock screen on Android. Yeah, I don't know how. I 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:21.440 think that's also possible on iOS, but I think I 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.120 doesn't show message content on the lock screen anyways. I'm 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.839 not sure anymore. But yeah, it's just also small things 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:30.439 like that, And also like one of the key tells 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:33.800 that someone probably tampered with your phone, especially for Android, 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:37.280 is if Google play Protect is disabled and you do 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:41.120 not remember disabling it for something else, it was almost 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.400 definitely disabled because someone installed something on your phone. Just 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:47.480 try re enabling it. Then they will probably tell you something. 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:49.400 The thing also to keep in mind if you find 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:52.880 stockaware on your phone, please get professional help. Do not 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:56.640 just delete it. Do not like necessarily confront whoever you 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:59.719 think might be your abuser about it unless you're very 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:03.480 sure that that's the situation you can handle, because like, yeah, 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:06.720 that's one of those things that like bringing it up 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:10.880 or just deleting it can very quickly lead to like, yeah, yeah, 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:13.160 complicating the situation a lot. 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:15.640 You know what else complicates the situation. 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:30.120 These ads and we are back. 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.319 So when it comes to the actual fight against this stuff, 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:36.839 obviously what you're doing is a big part of it. 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:41.360 Getting inside these companies and finding out like what they're 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.760 doing and their capabilities is huge for in terms of 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.520 like what regular people are people who are interested in 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.840 becoming activists about this can do. What does the what 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:53.680 is the struggle to actually fight this stuff look like? 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:56.120 Like how do we how do we put a bullet 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:57.760 in this industry's head, I. 0:12:57.720 --> 0:12:59.720 Think one of the biggest things, and also like why 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:01.600 I do the work I do with like hacking it 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:04.040 with encouraging others to like send me data, be that 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.280 insiders from these companies sending it idea to me, or 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:10.640 like tech Crunch specifically currently because like me and tech 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:13.920 crunch are like the only people really doing like journalism 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:17.880 on this like regularly. And the important thing with like 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.559 journalism and all of this is like awareness. It's very 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:22.800 important to create awareness about this. That's also why I 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:25.079 do the media work with like being on this podcast 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:28.040 and things like that. I think the most important thing 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.120 is to make people aware, like talk about this in 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:35.000 your feminist circles or whatever. Things like that especially bring 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.800 it up just also in like general info things about 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.360 abuse or how to detect abuse. I think the most 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:44.360 important thing to do against stocker whereas demestify it, because 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:46.440 most people don't even know that this is a thing, 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.839 that this is, like that there's just commercially available spyware 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:53.160 anyone can install on your phone. It's as important to 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.520 not like give in to some sort of paranoia as 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.760 with any of these things. It's just important to like, yeah, 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:03.760 generate awareness about it and like spread these articles, let 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:08.439 friends know that this is a potential thing, and then yeah, 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:11.160 the hard thing with this is that like obviously it 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:14.000 should will probably help if there was some sort of 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:16.760 legislation against some of this, It's going to be very 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:21.160 hard to get any proper legislation that ends this industry 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.000 because in most Western countries, which are the only countries 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:27.240 which unfortunately would have enough power to like actually get 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:30.760 these apps shut down, because that's the world we live in. 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:33.560 But the problem there is usually that like this notion 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:36.280 that children are owned by their parents is too strong 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:39.040 to really make a full case against these apps. And 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:41.640 at the very best what I can, like the very 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:47.160 best time kind of hoping for from from legislators is 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.600 just a ban on advertising these apps on use against 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:54.080 other adults, which would be big already, But that doesn't 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:56.480 really solve the issue because there's still going to be 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:59.280 enough people who know of their use for use against 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:01.160 adults and their there's going to be enough people on 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:05.240 like Creddit threads talking about, hey, well yeah, you oh 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:07.520 you're not sure if your government is cheating on you, look, 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.040 you can just use this app, you know. That's also 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.200 how most of this marketing for this works. It's just yeah, 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.240 at the end of the day, this is like a 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:19.960 patriarchal issue. So yeah, I think that's also why, like 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:22.720 I am so focused on like the hacking and the 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:26.120 like blowing these companies up and showing like who's behind them. 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:28.160 It's because at the end of the day, the most 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:31.320 effective thing we have against these companies is like the 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:34.080 grassroots movement of making them too scared to run in 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:37.320 this business, making it not profitable enough, because as I said, 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:40.240 most of this is like quick cash grabs from like 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:45.440 web design studios and outsourcing companies. Yeah that a're just 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:48.200 making a quick buck from this because otherwise they don't 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:50.480 get paid enough. Like that's this sad thing really is 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.800 how much of this industry is in all of these countries. 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:57.960 Western companies outsource their IT too, because there's lots of 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.240 IT companies there and they are entirely reliant on like 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:06.000 Western companies giving them very underpaid tasks. And yeah, I 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:07.840 have this problem that you now have a bunch of 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:10.880 employees and not enough money to always pay them. And 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:13.160 what do you do you like find some weird niche 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:16.440 of like a tech product you can quickly build. Yeah, 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:18.600 and this is like one of those easy niches. It's 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:23.040 like always the scummy stuff and like yeah, it's that's 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:25.160 also why like so many of these companies are like 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:27.720 based out of Vietnam, out of Iran and whatever. It's 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:31.000 just companies that already have it hard enough to do 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:35.480 business globally, where the IT industry is like falling apart 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:39.920 because there's not enough like local customers and anything that's international. 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.040 You're just the cheap workforce, right, So yeah, it's it's 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:46.840 once again also like a class problem. I don't like 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.720 most people working in this industry know that they're working 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:51.400 in a like scummy industry. 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:54.440 Yeah of course, but like yeah, you got to get 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:56.040 paid and that's yeah. 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.760 And that's like why I think making it more scary 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.480 to operate in this industry is like yes, the wait 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.399 to go because like with just like these like four 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.720 hacks that have happened against these companies over the last 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:11.320 like half a year or so, two of them, three 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:15.359 of them, three of them have shut down completely. Others 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:20.359 seem to be slowly moving towards just building other software primarily. Yeah, 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:24.840 it's just like, yeah, it's like with any other like 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:27.080 shady industry that the best we can do is just 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.359 to not make it profitable to run the software, because 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:33.760 at the very best, anything else we will get it's 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:36.040 just pushing them more into the shadows, which is not 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:37.560 going to solve the issue at all. 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:42.800 Yeah. I think a lot about like strategic thinking, which 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:45.000 I do believe is kind of often in part because 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:48.400 of how rightfully negative most people on the left think 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:52.080 about the military. There's a tendency to ignore some of 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:55.480 like the theory around how to actually win a conflict 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:59.480 and all of it all all strategy really, when you're 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:03.320 talking about like defeating an opponent, revolves around denying and 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:06.879 taking operational area from them, right, Yeah, And that's what 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:08.560 you're talking about when you talk about, well we need 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:10.359 to stop this. You know, one of the first things 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:12.399 we can do as part of fighting this is to 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:15.280 stop them from being able to advertise certain places. 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:15.600 Right. 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:19.200 It's making sure that they're not able to operate without 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:23.479 being seen. It's basically cutting down their area, their space 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:27.160 to maneuver, their ability to profit, which cuts down their money, 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:31.200 their access to people, their ability to actually like operate. 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:31.480 Right. 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:33.959 Like, that's what we're looking at in terms of how 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:36.120 do you kill this stuff? It's not one single really. 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:38.800 I use the comparison of like a bullet, but it's 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.399 never going to be one bullet. These things are too durable. 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:43.119 There's too many countries in the lay to do that. 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.800 Yeah, that's also why I put so much emphasis on 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.639 doing media work about this and getting more people to 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:53.000 talk about this and getting more awareness of this out there, 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:55.160 to the point where I'm willing to work with more 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:58.679 conservative newspapers on this because everyone needs to know about this. 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:00.479 At the end of the day. This is how we 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.840 like stop people from falling victims to this. Most people 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.800 who are a victim of stocker apps have never heard 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:10.120 of stocker apps before, and I think that's like one 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:12.000 of the biggest ways to tackle this. And on the 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:14.919 other hand, we also have I think another big leverage 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:17.359 point with how many of these are getting hacked because 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.080 none of these apps are very secure. That's another thing 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:24.119 is this can also be leveraged against like the abusers 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:26.640 in this scenario. I think just pointing out to them 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:29.000 that all of these apps get hacked all the time 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:31.000 and that this is how they get found out, that 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:34.040 that this is how their data of them as abusers 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:36.920 ends up landing on the Internet. I think it's also 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:39.440 like a very important angle at the end of the day, 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:41.679 is just to make it clear like yeah, no, not 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:46.320 even you are like secure from this having consequences for 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:50.320 your life, like beyond like direct interpersonal or legal consequences. 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:54.080 This can and in the past has result in like 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:56.359 your email adders being on a list of people who 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:59.720 have do abuse to people online. You don't want to 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:02.320 be on such a list. I think that's also important 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:06.040 just to like point out there isn't one stockover app 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:08.200 that's not eventually going to get hacked. There is a 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:11.080 big war against these apps. They're all like there's so 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.240 many different hacking groups that keep sending me data from 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:17.680 these like I'm already working on another article that already 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.080 once again affects like the data of like I think 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:24.760 like eighty thousand more like abusers, and it's just the 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.119 abuser data this time. But I'm still going to report 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:30.119 on it, like it's it's it's this is not going 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:33.120