WEBVTT - How the Fossil Fuel Industry is Undermining Free Speech 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:04.840 There's only one state this year that really has high 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:07.960 profile pipeline protests going on. That's Minnesota. 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:11.239 Thirty years ago this week, the Line three pipeline and 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:15.079 Northern Minnesota rupture, spilling one point seven million gallons of 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.120 crude oil into a frozen river near Grand Rapids, Minnesota. 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:21.160 If the river had not been frozen, the oil could 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:24.720 have seeped into the Mississippi River and contaminated drinking water 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:29.520 for millions downstream. Protests have been ongoing to stop construction 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:32.720 rerouting a section of the Line three pipeline, which could 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:40.120 impact indigenous communities and local waterways. 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:52.520 Hello and welcome to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelts. You might 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:56.600 have heard recently about the Line three pipeline project in Minnesota. 0:00:56.880 --> 0:01:00.320 Some people are calling it the next Standing Rock because 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:04.200 it's been at the center of protests for years, particularly 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:08.640 from indigenous tribes in the area. Activist and Authorjanona La 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:11.280 Duke has been involved in that fight for seven years. 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:14.520 Here she is talking to PBS News about it earlier 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:15.119 this month. 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:17.960 I'm a grandmother, you know, and we're standing out there. 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:21.560 I have six charges against me for this pipeline, and 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:23.760 there's a bunch of us that are facing charges for, 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:25.800 you know, trying to be a water protector. 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:28.440 L Duke and others have been part of this seven 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:32.360 year fight opposing the project throughout the state and federal 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:33.440 review processes. 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:37.479 It is the largest tarzans pipeline in the world. This 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:40.880 pipeline is the equivalent to fifty new coal fire power plants. 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:43.880 So you know, if you're trying to save the planet, 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:45.479 this is not the way to do it. 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.720 I couldn't get to Minnesota myself. I'm not vaccinated yet, 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:52.520 so I don't want to impose myself on the community. 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:55.640 Plus I have kids. But also this is one of 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:58.680 those stories where I want to hear from local and 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:03.120 particularly Native journalists. I did want to see, though, whether 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:07.360 the evolving Line three story dovetailed it all with something else. 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:12.280 I've been tracking fossil fuel backed anti protest bills. I've 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:14.880 written about this a few times. A bunch of other 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:17.720 journalists have done some great reporting on it as well. 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.760 There's some good stuff in huff Post and The Intercept. 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:23.359 I'll drop some links in the show notes for those 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:25.720 of you who want to read more. These bills have 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:29.000 been passed in fourteen states now and proposed in about 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:31.640 half the states in the country. They differ a little 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:34.080 bit from state to state, but in general, they increase 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:37.880 the fines and jail time associated with trespassing dramatically. They 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.720 often bump trespassing up from a misdemeanor to a felony, 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:45.440 and they seem to be specifically targeting organizers and the 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:50.000 organizations they work with, with steep penalties for organizing or 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:53.799 training activists who then trespass, So even if the organizer 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.800 isn't there at the protest, they can still be charged. 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:03.280 And it turns out there are six six anti protest 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:07.600 bills making their way through the Minnesota state legislature right now. 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.640 Some of them are bundled together, so it amounts to 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:16.760 four different legislative packages, but still that's a lot. That's 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:19.799 important because on top of cracking down on pipeline protests, 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:22.160 there's growing concern that these bills will be used to 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:26.200 quell other sorts of protests too, And remember, Minnesota was 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:30.120 ground zero for last summer's Black Lives Matter protests. In 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.840 the days after police murdered George Floyd. To talk about 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:38.200 Minnesota's proposals, where these laws came from in general, and 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:41.000 how they're moving through the country right now. I asked 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:44.160 researcher Connor Gibson to join me. He's been keeping tabs 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:46.920 on these bills really since they started to pick up 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:50.520 steam in the wake of the standing rock protests. That 0:03:50.600 --> 0:04:03.160 conversation coming up right after this quick break. It seems 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:05.520 like all of a sudden, the piece has picked up again. 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:09.160 But I don't know if that's just like a feeling 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:13.280 or if that's actually what's happened. So I'm curious to 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:15.400 see what you've seen on that front. 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:21.360 Yes, it is the case that these fossil fuel infrastructure 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:27.239 anti protest bills are currently gaining steam in the twenty 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:31.080 twenty one legislative sessions of many states. I think the 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:34.800 main difference between this year and last year is last 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:39.400 year the pandemic really just messed up the strategy. We 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:42.520 still saw plenty of bills and laws passed in twenty twenty, 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:45.039 but I think it was reduced by the impact of 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:48.799 the pandemic, the confusion and cancelations and delays that caused 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.039 a state legislature. So I suspect what we're seeing in 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:55.800 twenty twenty one is a lot of what companies intended 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:58.120 to do last year. They just weren't able to do 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.400 as much as quickly as they would have liked. But 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:04.520 that said, bill's still passed in the law during the 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:11.280 pandemic in West Virginia, in Kentucky, and this year we're 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:15.360 seeing more states continue the trend, including some states that 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:23.360 failed to pass bills last year, like Illinois, like Alabama. 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:28.560 And there's only one state this year that really has 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:33.600 high profile pipeline protests going on. That's Minnesota. Line three 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:39.480 revamp being done by Enbridge and being hastened along by 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:43.080 many other players in the oil industry makes the situation 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.080 a little bit more relevant and urgent in Minnesota than 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:48.560 in other states. You know, I can't tell you why 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:55.080 Arkansas cares so much to felamize pipeline protest. They're big 0:05:56.040 --> 0:06:01.680 pipeline resistance kind of happened a couple of years ago 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:03.760 with the Diamond pipeline. 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:06.760 Right Connor, was that? Did that come into play in 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:10.440 Oklahoma too? Was it the same pipeline, the Diamond pipeline. 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:14.760 I want to say, yes, yep. 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:15.960 It was. I checked. 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:20.560 So in early twenty seventeen, local newspapers in Arkansas and 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:25.039 Oklahoma were reporting that tribes, mostly in Oklahoma did not 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:29.600 approve of the diamond pipeline and that several indigenous activists 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:32.640 planned to protest it. There was a lot of handringing 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:36.400 about whether this would be the quote unquote next standing rock. 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:41.240 Noticing a theme here, and in February twenty seventeen, Oklahoma 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:45.080 Representative Scott Biggs proposed the anti protest bill that the 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:47.960 rest would be based on. Here's a bit of tape 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:51.080 from that session. The person you'll hear pushing bigs for 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:54.000 answers is Representative Corey Williams. 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:58.520 This issue has definitely risen to the level of concern 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:02.440 here in Oklahoma, giving our state status as an oil 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.120 producer energy producer, and what's going on in other states. 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.479 So we took what happened or what bill we passed 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:13.080 last year with the Critical Infrastructure Bill regarding flying drones 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:17.960 over refineries or cushing or places like that, and we've 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:22.440 now expanded that to provide some greater protection for those 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:25.880 critical infrastructures are necessary for the state to operate. So 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:31.760 the proposed committee sub basically lines out trespassing, helps define 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:35.480 what critical infrastructure is, and provides some for some enhanced 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:38.840 penalties for damage caused by truspassing. 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:43.360 Thank you, mister Shire. When I was looking through some 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:49.080 of the definitions on this, and a lot of them 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:52.440 I can see, but a couple of them, I thought, well, 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:54.840 that's pretty open ended if we wanted to prosecute it. 0:07:54.920 --> 0:08:01.960 I think it just says railroad tracks. That's pretty open 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:07.760 ended thing to consider to be critical infrastructure that would 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:10.800 have this enhanced penalty along with it. I mean, I 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:15.200 understand like a power generation facility and substations and things 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:19.840 like that. I guess my question is twofold, do you 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:21.640 think that a couple of these definitions might be a 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:25.640 little bit open ended and allow some abusive prosecution? And 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:28.880 then secondly, can you tell can you elaborate more on 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:31.080 you said that this has risen to the level of 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:34.080 a need. Can you describe the incident that there were 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:37.240 incidents that have brought us to the forefront? 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.640 Answer your questions Number one, absolutely not. I do not 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:44.079 believe if prosecutors are abusive in their discretion and their 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:46.840 role and their function to protect the state. I know 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:48.760 you disagree with me on that, and we have for 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:53.800 four years, but no, they're not abusive in their discretion. No, 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:56.280 I do not disagree. You know agree with you that 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:59.240 these definitions are open ended. I believe that if you 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:01.240 have an issue with the industry, I'm pretty sure the 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:05.200 rail industry could demonstrate how they're vital to Oklahoma. You know, 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.319 they're in cushion just south of your district. Is extremely 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:11.000 vital the oil gas industry for all the rail that's 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.480 pumping in this crewde oil because the pipelines have been protested, 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:16.920 the pipelines haven't been built, so now they're using rail 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:20.400 to move that oil, to move those products into our state. 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:23.560 The Oklahoma bill was pointed to as the one that 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:26.440 all the other bills were modeled after, but not without 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:30.079 some help from the fossil fuel industry. In fact, industry 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:34.480 reps were there the day Oklahoma's bill was introduced, ready 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:36.160 to answer questions in. 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:38.600 Your last response, I didn't actually hear you elaborate on 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:41.920 the incidents. It was it just the pipeline incident or 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.240 I don't think they did damage to property, but obviously there. 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:47.000 I'm pretty sure they did a whole lot of damage 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:48.560 to property in North Dakota, Okay. 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:49.360 Is that please? 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:51.760 Yes, please join if you if you want to learn more. 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.000 We actually have a meeting here at four o'clock today 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:58.240 with some individuals from North Dakota that are here to 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:01.680 talk to us, talk to the industry about what they're 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:04.920 having to deal with the aftermath of those protesters. Up 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:08.199 there's four o'clock Gripson McBride is sponsoring that open meeting 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:11.800 to the public. But yes, that is the main reason 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:12.160 behind this. 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:16.200 So there's a bit of background on the origins of 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:20.520 these bills. Now back to my conversation with Connor for more. Okay, 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:22.600 so actually, maybe I'll have you back up a little 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:26.120 bit and give folks a brief sort of history of 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:28.679 these bills that you know, they sort of started to 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:33.200 appear with the Oklahoma Bill shortly after Standing Rock and 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:37.680 very much were a reaction to that protest. 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:41.760 Sure thing. I'm actually going to take us way back 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:45.640 in time to September eleventh, two thousand and one, terrible 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:50.600 day in world history, when the world trade centers went 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:54.880 down and the Pentagon was attacked, and the country was 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:58.640 in a state of fear and confusion and very much 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:04.040 ready to accept so draconian government restrictions in the name 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:06.719 of our national security and not having to live through 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:10.319 anything like that. Again, there were some industries that were 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:16.080 starting to have this kind of conversation, and the first 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:24.720 more coherent discussion that I saw about critical infrastructure and 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:28.040 upping penalties for people that are trespassing on it or 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:32.920 near it, or certainly damaging any of the equipment. Those conversations, 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:35.160 as far as I can tell, we're starting to happen. 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:37.480 In two thousand and three, two thousand and four, there 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:39.960 was a law that was passed in Louisiana, Act one 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:45.440 fifty seven that set in motion the idea that there 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:51.920 would be heightened penalties for trespassing on critical infrastructure sites. 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.600 I don't think oil pipelines were included at first in 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:58.480 that Louisiana law. They added that in twenty fifteen, but 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:03.280 at that point some companies, including oil companies, started talking 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:06.440 about this. And there is a group that's similar to ALEC, 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:11.120 but not nearly as captured and partisan, called the Council 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:15.800 of State Governments. It is a bipartisan consortium of state legislators. 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:21.439 They do produce some model legislation in a way that's 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.000 similar to ALEC, but in addition to working in ways 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:27.960 that are much more broad than ALEC does a bunch 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:30.560 of different kinds of legislative trainings and working groups on 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:37.280 various issues. The Council of State Governments produced a report 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:42.600 that was financed by BP and others that embellished upon 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:44.800 some of this, And then I couldn't really tell you 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:49.120 what happens between two thousand and six in twenty fifteen. 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:51.040 As far as my research went, there didn't seem to 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:53.960 be any major events. But twenty fifteen, and this is 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:59.760 before Standing Rock and before the Dakota Access Pipeline was 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:05.720 being hotly protested, Louisiana started updating that critical Infrastructure law 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:09.679 that it had passed in two thousand and four. Interesting, 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:15.439 and it wasn't until two thousand and seventeen, the end 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:19.360 of the year December, that the American Legislative Exchange Council 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:21.840 ended out creating a model bill, Which is just to 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.679 say that there were some states starting to field test 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:30.320 different avenues with which to restrict oil and gas protesters, 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:35.400 specifically including Alabama, including Michigan, including Washington. They just hadn't 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:38.640 taken coherent shape in terms of this play that we're 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.600 seeing now, where it's felony level penalties for people who 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:48.439 are committing nonviolent acts of trespass coupled with compounded fines 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:52.760 and jail sentences often for organizations or individuals who are 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:55.960 found to be affiliated with those protesters. They don't have 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:58.679 to have trespass themselves, they don't have to have damaged 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:02.160 anything themselves. Afiliated with somebody that did, they wind up 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:04.800 being charged. And the first state that passed both of 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:08.959 those things in a pretty clear and coherent way with 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:12.600 Oklahoma in twenty seventeen. And that's usually where this story 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.560 starts in terms of people that are following and talking 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:17.800 about the issue. But you know, I do think it's 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:22.000 important to know that it didn't just explode randomly or 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.640 not so randomly, but in reaction to Standing Rock. There 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.320 was activity happening in a lot of these states leading 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:31.200 up to that point, and in twenty seventeen things really 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:34.600 became codified into the strategy that we've seen. It was 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:39.040 later that year the American Legislative Exchange Council passed its 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:45.040 model bill internally within itself at a meeting in December 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.440 of that year. And there's really there was some excellent 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:53.960 reporting that was done that actually has really helped inform 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.440 and understand how this trend took off. There was a 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:01.640 letter that was written to the Legis laders who participated 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:06.000 in that specific ALEC meeting in December twenty seventeen. They 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:12.440 had not yet approved this critical Infrastructure Felony law template 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:16.040 law yet. And the American Chemistry Council, which is chemical 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:20.400 manufacturers lobbyists, and the Edison Electric Institute which is electric 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:25.200 utility lobbyists, and the American Fuel and Petrochemical Manufacturers which 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:31.560 was the refinery companies, in addition to Marathon Petroleum and 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:35.960 the American Gas Association which is gas utility companies. They 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:38.520 all signed the letter to alex legislators and said, please 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:40.560 make a model bill out of this, do it at 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:42.800 this meeting, do it in the next few days. And 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:45.240 they listed a bunch of reasons justifying why a law 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:48.000 was needed. One of the examples used with was the 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:54.440 valve turners, a nonviolent protest that occurred in order to 0:15:54.480 --> 0:16:02.880 stop development of the Keystone Excel pipeline and the valves. 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:07.000 Hearner's example was the only example that was used by 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:09.440 these lobbyists to justify these laws that didn't have to 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:13.720 do actually with oil industry ex employees or people suffering 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.920 from serious incidents of mental illness committing acts of sabotage 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:20.680 against gas infrastructure, so much like we're seeing with the 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:25.120 Capitol riots where George Floyd gets murdered by police, a 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.560 bunch of time goes by Republicans theorize about ways to 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:31.680 punish the people who are reacting in outrage to the 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:35.040 murder of black and brown people in this country by 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.560 police officers. Then the Capitol riots happened, a bunch of 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:41.720 white supremacists stormed the Capitol, and now we're going to 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.440 be passing anti riot laws to go after black people, 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:48.400 essentially for the sins committed by white nationalists. This trend 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:52.760 in the oil and gas industry struck me as starkly similar. 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:59.640 They're justifying going after environmental protesters who are largely non violent, 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:04.160 committing access civil disobedience in order to stop the fossil 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:09.480 fuel bill out and blaming them with behavior that actually 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.000 had nothing to do with environmental activism. Some of the 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:16.800 tribal groups in Montana who protested the bill that is 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:20.680 currently making its way through that legislature a terrible, terrible 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:24.840 bill max sentence of thirty years in prison. MAX finds 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:28.639 of one point five million dollars if you are found 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:33.560 linked to somebody who is arrested under those offenses. It's 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.560 you know, an individual protester in Montana would be subject 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:38.800 to a max five of one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:42.200 which is atrocious. That is way bigger than most of 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:45.160 these states. The penalties in these states, which are draconian enough, 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:48.600 tends to cap around like twenty or twenty five thousand dollars. 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.440 Montana has upping it to one hundred and fifty thousand, 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:56.000 but times ten if you are found to be a 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:59.960 supporter of a protest arrested. And of course Keystone xcit 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:03.119 all cuts through at least one of the reservations in Montana, 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:11.160 and I believe that's the Flathead Tribal Reservation. The wow. 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:15.480 The bill was protested and committee by a lot of 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:22.159 different indigenous peoples from different tribal nations and different Native 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:26.240 organizations nonprofits in Montana, and they were all concerned not 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:32.679 only about the ongoing fight over Keystone EXCEL, but just 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:35.840 once the law is on the books, who knows what 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:40.199 it will be used to punish people for in regard 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:43.320 to any future infrastructure project. You know that qualified for 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:45.080 critical infrastructure. 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:48.560 And it's quite broad, right the definition of critical infrastructure. 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:52.679 Yes, and I would have to look at Montana's definitions 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:54.720 again because all of the states are a little bit different, 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:58.600 but roughly following the trend that was set forth by 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.760 the State of Oklahoma and by the American Legislative Exchange 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:11.280 Council's Model Bill. It includes utility infrastructure, electric transmission lines, 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:15.160 It includes pipelines of all kinds. It includes water infrastructure. 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:19.520 Some of them include dams in Louisiana, levies was attempted 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.040 to be added to the definitions last year, which failed. 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:29.320 From you know, gas compressor stations, refineries, export terminals, pretty 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:31.680 much everything you can think of that as dirty energy 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.840 infrastructure qualifies as critical under this bill. 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:41.560 Right right. I do wonder how much some of these 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:46.760 laws could be used to tamp down on various other 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:51.000 types of protests, like the Black Lives Matter protests. Some 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:54.280 new research done and I'm not sure if it's out 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:59.240 there yet or not around some groups that have, you know, 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.919 been looking at at what Gibson done has done in 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:08.440 response both to indigenous tribes in Ecuador suing Chevron and 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:14.920 to the Standing Rock protests against their client energy transfer 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:20.679 partners and using RICO. I definitely hear echoes of in 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:24.960 these in these anti protest laws, especially the recent ones 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:28.480 where they're going after the quote unquote organizers. 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:33.600 There's the plot thickens amy because in the bill that's 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:37.480 currently being considered in Kansas, and it has already passed 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:39.639 the Senate in Kansas, it actually has hearing in the 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:45.320 House tomorrow, which is March seventeenth, that bill includes a 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:50.880 RICO provision, and wow, I believe is the first overlap 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:57.880 between corporations using racketeering anti mafia laws to go after 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:01.679 their critics or attorneys or anything plaintiffs that inconvenience them 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:05.720 or whatever it might be at these anti protests. The 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:09.720 fossil fuel anti protest laws specifically, I believe RICO is 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:13.760 also starting to creep into the broader trend of riot 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:19.360 redefinition anti protesting laws where you find the lowest common 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:22.560 denominator way to accuse somebody of rioting and then you 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:25.040 get to charge them with very very serious felonies. And 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:29.399 if some of these states succeed, you know, potentially racketeering 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:33.240 implication as well, you know, as if the civil disobedience 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:35.399 is organized crime. 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:39.399 In very simple terms, that is the attempt that's underway 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:44.639 is to redefine civil disobedience as organized crime, and people 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:49.160 should know that the RICO laws were created to deal 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:49.879 with the mob. 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:53.520 Yeah, I'm sorry, just like you know, even the more 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:57.480 extreme and I I don't even want to use that 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:00.560 word because there's no explosions or violence or threats involved. 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:03.480 But like an activist cutting a fence or throwing a 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:06.679 carpet over the razor wire and trespassing or even shutting 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:09.760 off a pipeline valve, I'm sorry, that's not like walking 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:12.600 into somebody's store and breaking their kneecaps for not paying 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:18.600 their dues that Month's similar or even nearly as threatening 0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:19.160 about that? 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:22.560 Do you have an account of how many states have 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:26.239 enacted these laws and then how many are sort of 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:27.639 in play right now? 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:32.200 I do, Okay. There are a total of fourteen states 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:36.399 that have so far passed the fossil Fuel Infrastructure anti 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:41.520 protest bills since twenty seventeen. The most recent one was 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:46.720 in twenty twenty one, but the fight actually started years previous, 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:50.320 and that's Ohio. They just passed the law in January. 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:54.000 That bill carried over from the previous year. After that, 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:58.040 we've seen bills pop up in Minnesota for a grand 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:01.920 total of six bill. I don't know, they're just really 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:04.880 disorganized or what. Some of them are concurrent, so it's 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:09.199 really it's basically for legislative packages in Minnesota in the 0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:09.840 form of six. 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:13.399 Bills in MINESDA. That's really interesting to me in the 0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:18.080 context of the Line three protests right now. Is there 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:22.320 any sense that, like the number of proposals or the 0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:27.080 movement on them it like recently, is connected to some 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:29.600 sort of reaction to that protest. 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:34.240 That's a great question. I'm gonna say my gut tells 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:37.080 me yes, because in twenty eighteen there was only one bill. 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:39.520 In twenty nineteen there were two bills, and I believe 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:42.720 they were they might have been concurrent. And in twenty 0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:45.159 twenty there were also two bills, and then suddenly this 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:49.240 year there's six. There's also there's a little bit of 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:52.760 difference between some of them. Some of the bills are 0:23:52.760 --> 0:23:57.439 more focused on the felonies for the individuals, including the 0:23:57.480 --> 0:24:03.360 loophole that you're trespassing on a fossil fuel infrastructure facility 0:24:03.400 --> 0:24:08.800 with the intent to impede or inhibit or in another bill, 0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:12.480 with the intent to disrupt the operation. I'm going to 0:24:12.520 --> 0:24:16.800 go ahead and say a aggressive prosecutor would slap me 0:24:16.880 --> 0:24:20.600 with a felony charge if I was sitting in front 0:24:20.640 --> 0:24:23.879 of a road because that would impede or inhibit the 0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:27.239 operation of the facility or disrupt the operation. So that's like, 0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:29.560 that's where the loophole is here, Right. They frame this 0:24:29.640 --> 0:24:32.560 as if it's about property damage, as if it's about violence. 0:24:33.160 --> 0:24:35.840 Guess what, All of that's are illegal everywhere it has 0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:39.800 been all of this nation's recent history and all of 0:24:39.800 --> 0:24:42.480 the state's recent history. You can't hurt people, you can't 0:24:42.520 --> 0:24:45.520 blow stuff up, you can't damage property, you can't trespass. 0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:48.080 There are laws on the books to deal with those things. 0:24:48.359 --> 0:24:50.920 So what these bills really aim to change, and the 0:24:51.920 --> 0:24:55.000 Minnesota bills illustrate it well, is that there is a 0:24:55.040 --> 0:24:59.920 loophole put in there that if you're disrupting or interrupt 0:25:00.280 --> 0:25:02.840 the facility in some minor way, you're on the hook 0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:06.160 for the same level felony offense that is normally reserved 0:25:06.200 --> 0:25:09.000 for somebody who is abusing or hurting another human being. 0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:12.600 Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it in. 0:25:12.640 --> 0:25:15.760 An important thing for people to understand that, Like, it's 0:25:15.840 --> 0:25:18.720 not like in the absence of these bills, there has 0:25:18.840 --> 0:25:25.160 just been you know, blanket permissiveness for trespassing and properties. 0:25:27.119 --> 0:25:29.439 Protesting. You know, the people in Standing Rock in addition 0:25:29.480 --> 0:25:32.760 to getting blasted by the cops water cannons and freezing 0:25:32.800 --> 0:25:35.400 cold temperatures and attacked by dogs and having their arms 0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:38.760