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Speaker 1: There's only one state this year that really has high

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Speaker 1: profile pipeline protests going on. That's Minnesota.

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Speaker 2: Thirty years ago this week, the Line three pipeline and

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Speaker 2: Northern Minnesota rupture, spilling one point seven million gallons of

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Speaker 2: crude oil into a frozen river near Grand Rapids, Minnesota.

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Speaker 2: If the river had not been frozen, the oil could

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Speaker 2: have seeped into the Mississippi River and contaminated drinking water

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Speaker 2: for millions downstream. Protests have been ongoing to stop construction

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Speaker 2: rerouting a section of the Line three pipeline, which could

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Speaker 2: impact indigenous communities and local waterways.

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Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelts. You might

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Speaker 3: have heard recently about the Line three pipeline project in Minnesota.

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Speaker 3: Some people are calling it the next Standing Rock because

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Speaker 3: it's been at the center of protests for years, particularly

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Speaker 3: from indigenous tribes in the area. Activist and Authorjanona La

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Speaker 3: Duke has been involved in that fight for seven years.

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Speaker 3: Here she is talking to PBS News about it earlier

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Speaker 3: this month.

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Speaker 4: I'm a grandmother, you know, and we're standing out there.

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Speaker 4: I have six charges against me for this pipeline, and

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Speaker 4: there's a bunch of us that are facing charges for,

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Speaker 4: you know, trying to be a water protector.

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Speaker 3: L Duke and others have been part of this seven

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Speaker 3: year fight opposing the project throughout the state and federal

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Speaker 3: review processes.

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Speaker 4: It is the largest tarzans pipeline in the world. This

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Speaker 4: pipeline is the equivalent to fifty new coal fire power plants.

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Speaker 4: So you know, if you're trying to save the planet,

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Speaker 4: this is not the way to do it.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't get to Minnesota myself. I'm not vaccinated yet,

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Speaker 3: so I don't want to impose myself on the community.

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Speaker 3: Plus I have kids. But also this is one of

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Speaker 3: those stories where I want to hear from local and

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Speaker 3: particularly Native journalists. I did want to see, though, whether

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Speaker 3: the evolving Line three story dovetailed it all with something else.

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Speaker 3: I've been tracking fossil fuel backed anti protest bills. I've

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Speaker 3: written about this a few times. A bunch of other

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Speaker 3: journalists have done some great reporting on it as well.

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Speaker 3: There's some good stuff in huff Post and The Intercept.

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Speaker 3: I'll drop some links in the show notes for those

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Speaker 3: of you who want to read more. These bills have

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Speaker 3: been passed in fourteen states now and proposed in about

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Speaker 3: half the states in the country. They differ a little

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Speaker 3: bit from state to state, but in general, they increase

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Speaker 3: the fines and jail time associated with trespassing dramatically. They

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Speaker 3: often bump trespassing up from a misdemeanor to a felony,

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Speaker 3: and they seem to be specifically targeting organizers and the

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Speaker 3: organizations they work with, with steep penalties for organizing or

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Speaker 3: training activists who then trespass, So even if the organizer

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Speaker 3: isn't there at the protest, they can still be charged.

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Speaker 3: And it turns out there are six six anti protest

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Speaker 3: bills making their way through the Minnesota state legislature right now.

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Speaker 3: Some of them are bundled together, so it amounts to

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Speaker 3: four different legislative packages, but still that's a lot. That's

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Speaker 3: important because on top of cracking down on pipeline protests,

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Speaker 3: there's growing concern that these bills will be used to

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Speaker 3: quell other sorts of protests too, And remember, Minnesota was

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Speaker 3: ground zero for last summer's Black Lives Matter protests. In

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Speaker 3: the days after police murdered George Floyd. To talk about

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Speaker 3: Minnesota's proposals, where these laws came from in general, and

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Speaker 3: how they're moving through the country right now. I asked

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Speaker 3: researcher Connor Gibson to join me. He's been keeping tabs

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Speaker 3: on these bills really since they started to pick up

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Speaker 3: steam in the wake of the standing rock protests. That

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Speaker 3: conversation coming up right after this quick break. It seems

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Speaker 3: like all of a sudden, the piece has picked up again.

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Speaker 3: But I don't know if that's just like a feeling

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Speaker 3: or if that's actually what's happened. So I'm curious to

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Speaker 3: see what you've seen on that front.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it is the case that these fossil fuel infrastructure

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Speaker 1: anti protest bills are currently gaining steam in the twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one legislative sessions of many states. I think the

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Speaker 1: main difference between this year and last year is last

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Speaker 1: year the pandemic really just messed up the strategy. We

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Speaker 1: still saw plenty of bills and laws passed in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: but I think it was reduced by the impact of

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Speaker 1: the pandemic, the confusion and cancelations and delays that caused

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Speaker 1: a state legislature. So I suspect what we're seeing in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one is a lot of what companies intended

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Speaker 1: to do last year. They just weren't able to do

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Speaker 1: as much as quickly as they would have liked. But

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Speaker 1: that said, bill's still passed in the law during the

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Speaker 1: pandemic in West Virginia, in Kentucky, and this year we're

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Speaker 1: seeing more states continue the trend, including some states that

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Speaker 1: failed to pass bills last year, like Illinois, like Alabama.

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Speaker 1: And there's only one state this year that really has

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Speaker 1: high profile pipeline protests going on. That's Minnesota. Line three

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Speaker 1: revamp being done by Enbridge and being hastened along by

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Speaker 1: many other players in the oil industry makes the situation

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Speaker 1: a little bit more relevant and urgent in Minnesota than

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Speaker 1: in other states. You know, I can't tell you why

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Speaker 1: Arkansas cares so much to felamize pipeline protest. They're big

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Speaker 1: pipeline resistance kind of happened a couple of years ago

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Speaker 1: with the Diamond pipeline.

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Speaker 3: Right Connor, was that? Did that come into play in

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Speaker 3: Oklahoma too? Was it the same pipeline, the Diamond pipeline.

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Speaker 1: I want to say, yes, yep.

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Speaker 4: It was. I checked.

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Speaker 3: So in early twenty seventeen, local newspapers in Arkansas and

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Speaker 3: Oklahoma were reporting that tribes, mostly in Oklahoma did not

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Speaker 3: approve of the diamond pipeline and that several indigenous activists

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Speaker 3: planned to protest it. There was a lot of handringing

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Speaker 3: about whether this would be the quote unquote next standing rock.

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Speaker 3: Noticing a theme here, and in February twenty seventeen, Oklahoma

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Speaker 3: Representative Scott Biggs proposed the anti protest bill that the

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Speaker 3: rest would be based on. Here's a bit of tape

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Speaker 3: from that session. The person you'll hear pushing bigs for

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Speaker 3: answers is Representative Corey Williams.

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Speaker 5: This issue has definitely risen to the level of concern

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Speaker 5: here in Oklahoma, giving our state status as an oil

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Speaker 5: producer energy producer, and what's going on in other states.

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Speaker 5: So we took what happened or what bill we passed

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Speaker 5: last year with the Critical Infrastructure Bill regarding flying drones

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Speaker 5: over refineries or cushing or places like that, and we've

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Speaker 5: now expanded that to provide some greater protection for those

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Speaker 5: critical infrastructures are necessary for the state to operate. So

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Speaker 5: the proposed committee sub basically lines out trespassing, helps define

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Speaker 5: what critical infrastructure is, and provides some for some enhanced

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Speaker 5: penalties for damage caused by truspassing.

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Speaker 6: Thank you, mister Shire. When I was looking through some

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Speaker 6: of the definitions on this, and a lot of them

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Speaker 6: I can see, but a couple of them, I thought, well,

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Speaker 6: that's pretty open ended if we wanted to prosecute it.

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Speaker 6: I think it just says railroad tracks. That's pretty open

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Speaker 6: ended thing to consider to be critical infrastructure that would

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Speaker 6: have this enhanced penalty along with it. I mean, I

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Speaker 6: understand like a power generation facility and substations and things

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Speaker 6: like that. I guess my question is twofold, do you

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Speaker 6: think that a couple of these definitions might be a

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Speaker 6: little bit open ended and allow some abusive prosecution? And

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Speaker 6: then secondly, can you tell can you elaborate more on

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Speaker 6: you said that this has risen to the level of

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Speaker 6: a need. Can you describe the incident that there were

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Speaker 6: incidents that have brought us to the forefront?

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Speaker 5: Answer your questions Number one, absolutely not. I do not

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Speaker 5: believe if prosecutors are abusive in their discretion and their

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Speaker 5: role and their function to protect the state. I know

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Speaker 5: you disagree with me on that, and we have for

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Speaker 5: four years, but no, they're not abusive in their discretion. No,

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Speaker 5: I do not disagree. You know agree with you that

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Speaker 5: these definitions are open ended. I believe that if you

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Speaker 5: have an issue with the industry, I'm pretty sure the

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Speaker 5: rail industry could demonstrate how they're vital to Oklahoma. You know,

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Speaker 5: they're in cushion just south of your district. Is extremely

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Speaker 5: vital the oil gas industry for all the rail that's

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Speaker 5: pumping in this crewde oil because the pipelines have been protested,

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Speaker 5: the pipelines haven't been built, so now they're using rail

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Speaker 5: to move that oil, to move those products into our state.

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Speaker 3: The Oklahoma bill was pointed to as the one that

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Speaker 3: all the other bills were modeled after, but not without

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Speaker 3: some help from the fossil fuel industry. In fact, industry

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Speaker 3: reps were there the day Oklahoma's bill was introduced, ready

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Speaker 3: to answer questions in.

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Speaker 6: Your last response, I didn't actually hear you elaborate on

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Speaker 6: the incidents. It was it just the pipeline incident or

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Speaker 6: I don't think they did damage to property, but obviously there.

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Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure they did a whole lot of damage

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Speaker 5: to property in North Dakota, Okay.

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Speaker 6: Is that please?

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Speaker 5: Yes, please join if you if you want to learn more.

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Speaker 5: We actually have a meeting here at four o'clock today

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Speaker 5: with some individuals from North Dakota that are here to

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Speaker 5: talk to us, talk to the industry about what they're

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Speaker 5: having to deal with the aftermath of those protesters. Up

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Speaker 5: there's four o'clock Gripson McBride is sponsoring that open meeting

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Speaker 5: to the public. But yes, that is the main reason

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Speaker 5: behind this.

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Speaker 3: So there's a bit of background on the origins of

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Speaker 3: these bills. Now back to my conversation with Connor for more. Okay,

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Speaker 3: so actually, maybe I'll have you back up a little

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Speaker 3: bit and give folks a brief sort of history of

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Speaker 3: these bills that you know, they sort of started to

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Speaker 3: appear with the Oklahoma Bill shortly after Standing Rock and

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Speaker 3: very much were a reaction to that protest.

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Speaker 1: Sure thing. I'm actually going to take us way back

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Speaker 1: in time to September eleventh, two thousand and one, terrible

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Speaker 1: day in world history, when the world trade centers went

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Speaker 1: down and the Pentagon was attacked, and the country was

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Speaker 1: in a state of fear and confusion and very much

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Speaker 1: ready to accept so draconian government restrictions in the name

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Speaker 1: of our national security and not having to live through

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Speaker 1: anything like that. Again, there were some industries that were

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Speaker 1: starting to have this kind of conversation, and the first

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Speaker 1: more coherent discussion that I saw about critical infrastructure and

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Speaker 1: upping penalties for people that are trespassing on it or

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Speaker 1: near it, or certainly damaging any of the equipment. Those conversations,

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Speaker 1: as far as I can tell, we're starting to happen.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and three, two thousand and four, there

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Speaker 1: was a law that was passed in Louisiana, Act one

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Speaker 1: fifty seven that set in motion the idea that there

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Speaker 1: would be heightened penalties for trespassing on critical infrastructure sites.

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Speaker 1: I don't think oil pipelines were included at first in

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Speaker 1: that Louisiana law. They added that in twenty fifteen, but

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Speaker 1: at that point some companies, including oil companies, started talking

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Speaker 1: about this. And there is a group that's similar to ALEC,

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Speaker 1: but not nearly as captured and partisan, called the Council

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Speaker 1: of State Governments. It is a bipartisan consortium of state legislators.

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Speaker 1: They do produce some model legislation in a way that's

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Speaker 1: similar to ALEC, but in addition to working in ways

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Speaker 1: that are much more broad than ALEC does a bunch

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Speaker 1: of different kinds of legislative trainings and working groups on

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Speaker 1: various issues. The Council of State Governments produced a report

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Speaker 1: that was financed by BP and others that embellished upon

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Speaker 1: some of this, And then I couldn't really tell you

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Speaker 1: what happens between two thousand and six in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: As far as my research went, there didn't seem to

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Speaker 1: be any major events. But twenty fifteen, and this is

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Speaker 1: before Standing Rock and before the Dakota Access Pipeline was

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Speaker 1: being hotly protested, Louisiana started updating that critical Infrastructure law

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Speaker 1: that it had passed in two thousand and four. Interesting,

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't until two thousand and seventeen, the end

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Speaker 1: of the year December, that the American Legislative Exchange Council

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Speaker 1: ended out creating a model bill, Which is just to

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Speaker 1: say that there were some states starting to field test

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Speaker 1: different avenues with which to restrict oil and gas protesters,

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Speaker 1: specifically including Alabama, including Michigan, including Washington. They just hadn't

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Speaker 1: taken coherent shape in terms of this play that we're

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Speaker 1: seeing now, where it's felony level penalties for people who

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Speaker 1: are committing nonviolent acts of trespass coupled with compounded fines

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Speaker 1: and jail sentences often for organizations or individuals who are

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Speaker 1: found to be affiliated with those protesters. They don't have

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Speaker 1: to have trespass themselves, they don't have to have damaged

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Speaker 1: anything themselves. Afiliated with somebody that did, they wind up

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Speaker 1: being charged. And the first state that passed both of

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Speaker 1: those things in a pretty clear and coherent way with

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Speaker 1: Oklahoma in twenty seventeen. And that's usually where this story

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Speaker 1: starts in terms of people that are following and talking

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Speaker 1: about the issue. But you know, I do think it's

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Speaker 1: important to know that it didn't just explode randomly or

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Speaker 1: not so randomly, but in reaction to Standing Rock. There

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Speaker 1: was activity happening in a lot of these states leading

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Speaker 1: up to that point, and in twenty seventeen things really

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Speaker 1: became codified into the strategy that we've seen. It was

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Speaker 1: later that year the American Legislative Exchange Council passed its

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Speaker 1: model bill internally within itself at a meeting in December

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Speaker 1: of that year. And there's really there was some excellent

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Speaker 1: reporting that was done that actually has really helped inform

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Speaker 1: and understand how this trend took off. There was a

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Speaker 1: letter that was written to the Legis laders who participated

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Speaker 1: in that specific ALEC meeting in December twenty seventeen. They

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Speaker 1: had not yet approved this critical Infrastructure Felony law template

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Speaker 1: law yet. And the American Chemistry Council, which is chemical

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Speaker 1: manufacturers lobbyists, and the Edison Electric Institute which is electric

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Speaker 1: utility lobbyists, and the American Fuel and Petrochemical Manufacturers which

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Speaker 1: was the refinery companies, in addition to Marathon Petroleum and

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Speaker 1: the American Gas Association which is gas utility companies. They

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Speaker 1: all signed the letter to alex legislators and said, please

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Speaker 1: make a model bill out of this, do it at

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Speaker 1: this meeting, do it in the next few days. And

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Speaker 1: they listed a bunch of reasons justifying why a law

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Speaker 1: was needed. One of the examples used with was the

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Speaker 1: valve turners, a nonviolent protest that occurred in order to

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Speaker 1: stop development of the Keystone Excel pipeline and the valves.

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Speaker 1: Hearner's example was the only example that was used by

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Speaker 1: these lobbyists to justify these laws that didn't have to

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Speaker 1: do actually with oil industry ex employees or people suffering

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Speaker 1: from serious incidents of mental illness committing acts of sabotage

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Speaker 1: against gas infrastructure, so much like we're seeing with the

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Speaker 1: Capitol riots where George Floyd gets murdered by police, a

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Speaker 1: bunch of time goes by Republicans theorize about ways to

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Speaker 1: punish the people who are reacting in outrage to the

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Speaker 1: murder of black and brown people in this country by

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Speaker 1: police officers. Then the Capitol riots happened, a bunch of

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Speaker 1: white supremacists stormed the Capitol, and now we're going to

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Speaker 1: be passing anti riot laws to go after black people,

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Speaker 1: essentially for the sins committed by white nationalists. This trend

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Speaker 1: in the oil and gas industry struck me as starkly similar.

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Speaker 1: They're justifying going after environmental protesters who are largely non violent,

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Speaker 1: committing access civil disobedience in order to stop the fossil

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Speaker 1: fuel bill out and blaming them with behavior that actually

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Speaker 1: had nothing to do with environmental activism. Some of the

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Speaker 1: tribal groups in Montana who protested the bill that is

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Speaker 1: currently making its way through that legislature a terrible, terrible

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Speaker 1: bill max sentence of thirty years in prison. MAX finds

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Speaker 1: of one point five million dollars if you are found

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Speaker 1: linked to somebody who is arrested under those offenses. It's

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Speaker 1: you know, an individual protester in Montana would be subject

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Speaker 1: to a max five of one hundred and fifty thousand dollars,

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Speaker 1: which is atrocious. That is way bigger than most of

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Speaker 1: these states. The penalties in these states, which are draconian enough,

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Speaker 1: tends to cap around like twenty or twenty five thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: Montana has upping it to one hundred and fifty thousand,

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Speaker 1: but times ten if you are found to be a

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Speaker 1: supporter of a protest arrested. And of course Keystone xcit

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Speaker 1: all cuts through at least one of the reservations in Montana,

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Speaker 1: and I believe that's the Flathead Tribal Reservation. The wow.

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Speaker 1: The bill was protested and committee by a lot of

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Speaker 1: different indigenous peoples from different tribal nations and different Native

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Speaker 1: organizations nonprofits in Montana, and they were all concerned not

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Speaker 1: only about the ongoing fight over Keystone EXCEL, but just

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Speaker 1: once the law is on the books, who knows what

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Speaker 1: it will be used to punish people for in regard

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Speaker 1: to any future infrastructure project. You know that qualified for

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Speaker 1: critical infrastructure.

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Speaker 3: And it's quite broad, right the definition of critical infrastructure.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and I would have to look at Montana's definitions

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Speaker 1: again because all of the states are a little bit different,

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Speaker 1: but roughly following the trend that was set forth by

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Speaker 1: the State of Oklahoma and by the American Legislative Exchange

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Speaker 1: Council's Model Bill. It includes utility infrastructure, electric transmission lines,

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Speaker 1: It includes pipelines of all kinds. It includes water infrastructure.

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Speaker 1: Some of them include dams in Louisiana, levies was attempted

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Speaker 1: to be added to the definitions last year, which failed.

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Speaker 1: From you know, gas compressor stations, refineries, export terminals, pretty

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Speaker 1: much everything you can think of that as dirty energy

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Speaker 1: infrastructure qualifies as critical under this bill.

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Speaker 3: Right right. I do wonder how much some of these

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Speaker 3: laws could be used to tamp down on various other

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Speaker 3: types of protests, like the Black Lives Matter protests. Some

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Speaker 3: new research done and I'm not sure if it's out

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Speaker 3: there yet or not around some groups that have, you know,

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Speaker 3: been looking at at what Gibson done has done in

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Speaker 3: response both to indigenous tribes in Ecuador suing Chevron and

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Speaker 3: to the Standing Rock protests against their client energy transfer

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Speaker 3: partners and using RICO. I definitely hear echoes of in

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Speaker 3: these in these anti protest laws, especially the recent ones

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Speaker 3: where they're going after the quote unquote organizers.

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Speaker 1: There's the plot thickens amy because in the bill that's

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Speaker 1: currently being considered in Kansas, and it has already passed

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Speaker 1: the Senate in Kansas, it actually has hearing in the

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Speaker 1: House tomorrow, which is March seventeenth, that bill includes a

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Speaker 1: RICO provision, and wow, I believe is the first overlap

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Speaker 1: between corporations using racketeering anti mafia laws to go after

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Speaker 1: their critics or attorneys or anything plaintiffs that inconvenience them

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Speaker 1: or whatever it might be at these anti protests. The

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Speaker 1: fossil fuel anti protest laws specifically, I believe RICO is

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Speaker 1: also starting to creep into the broader trend of riot

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Speaker 1: redefinition anti protesting laws where you find the lowest common

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Speaker 1: denominator way to accuse somebody of rioting and then you

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Speaker 1: get to charge them with very very serious felonies. And

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Speaker 1: if some of these states succeed, you know, potentially racketeering

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Speaker 1: implication as well, you know, as if the civil disobedience

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Speaker 1: is organized crime.

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Speaker 3: In very simple terms, that is the attempt that's underway

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Speaker 3: is to redefine civil disobedience as organized crime, and people

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Speaker 3: should know that the RICO laws were created to deal

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Speaker 3: with the mob.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sorry, just like you know, even the more

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Speaker 1: extreme and I I don't even want to use that

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Speaker 1: word because there's no explosions or violence or threats involved.

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Speaker 1: But like an activist cutting a fence or throwing a

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Speaker 1: carpet over the razor wire and trespassing or even shutting

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Speaker 1: off a pipeline valve, I'm sorry, that's not like walking

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Speaker 1: into somebody's store and breaking their kneecaps for not paying

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Speaker 1: their dues that Month's similar or even nearly as threatening

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Speaker 1: about that?

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Speaker 3: Do you have an account of how many states have

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Speaker 3: enacted these laws and then how many are sort of

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Speaker 3: in play right now?

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Speaker 1: I do, Okay. There are a total of fourteen states

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Speaker 1: that have so far passed the fossil Fuel Infrastructure anti

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Speaker 1: protest bills since twenty seventeen. The most recent one was

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, but the fight actually started years previous,

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Speaker 1: and that's Ohio. They just passed the law in January.

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Speaker 1: That bill carried over from the previous year. After that,

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Speaker 1: we've seen bills pop up in Minnesota for a grand

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Speaker 1: total of six bill. I don't know, they're just really

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Speaker 1: disorganized or what. Some of them are concurrent, so it's

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Speaker 1: really it's basically for legislative packages in Minnesota in the

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Speaker 1: form of six.

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Speaker 3: Bills in MINESDA. That's really interesting to me in the

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Speaker 3: context of the Line three protests right now. Is there

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Speaker 3: any sense that, like the number of proposals or the

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Speaker 3: movement on them it like recently, is connected to some

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Speaker 3: sort of reaction to that protest.

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Speaker 1: That's a great question. I'm gonna say my gut tells

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Speaker 1: me yes, because in twenty eighteen there was only one bill.

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Speaker 1: In twenty nineteen there were two bills, and I believe

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Speaker 1: they were they might have been concurrent. And in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty there were also two bills, and then suddenly this

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Speaker 1: year there's six. There's also there's a little bit of

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Speaker 1: difference between some of them. Some of the bills are

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Speaker 1: more focused on the felonies for the individuals, including the

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Speaker 1: loophole that you're trespassing on a fossil fuel infrastructure facility

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Speaker 1: with the intent to impede or inhibit or in another bill,

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Speaker 1: with the intent to disrupt the operation. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: go ahead and say a aggressive prosecutor would slap me

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Speaker 1: with a felony charge if I was sitting in front

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Speaker 1: of a road because that would impede or inhibit the

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Speaker 1: operation of the facility or disrupt the operation. So that's like,

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Speaker 1: that's where the loophole is here, Right. They frame this

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Speaker 1: as if it's about property damage, as if it's about violence.

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Speaker 1: Guess what, All of that's are illegal everywhere it has

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Speaker 1: been all of this nation's recent history and all of

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Speaker 1: the state's recent history. You can't hurt people, you can't

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Speaker 1: blow stuff up, you can't damage property, you can't trespass.

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Speaker 1: There are laws on the books to deal with those things.

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Speaker 1: So what these bills really aim to change, and the

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Speaker 1: Minnesota bills illustrate it well, is that there is a

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Speaker 1: loophole put in there that if you're disrupting or interrupt

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Speaker 1: the facility in some minor way, you're on the hook

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Speaker 1: for the same level felony offense that is normally reserved

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Speaker 1: for somebody who is abusing or hurting another human being.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it in.

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Speaker 3: An important thing for people to understand that, Like, it's

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Speaker 3: not like in the absence of these bills, there has

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Speaker 3: just been you know, blanket permissiveness for trespassing and properties.

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Speaker 1: Protesting. You know, the people in Standing Rock in addition

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Speaker 1: to getting blasted by the cops water cannons and freezing

400
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Speaker 1: cold temperatures and attacked by dogs and having their arms

401
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Speaker 1: blown off by concussion grenades and stuff like that. Like

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Speaker 1: you know, the people who are arrested can like trespassing

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Speaker 1: those situations, they do end out having to get charged

404
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Speaker 1: with things, and they do end up having to fight

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Speaker 1: that out in court. And I know that for skeptics

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Speaker 1: of like kind of protest culture and this like perhaps

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Speaker 1: what's seen as a really self righteous liberalism stand up

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Speaker 1: for what's right, that really irks some people. But I

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Speaker 1: don't think they think about how the people who engage

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Speaker 1: in acts of civil different disobedience really have a lot

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Speaker 1: of shit to deal with after that happens or all

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Speaker 1: these myself as an example, right, Like, people are annoyed

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Speaker 1: that somebody like me, this college educated white kid like

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Speaker 1: goes and protest the Keystone Excel pipeline in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and eleven at the White House, which I did. It

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Speaker 1: was a mass civil disobedience. We all got arrested. We

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Speaker 1: went to jail. We didn't have to go to a cell.

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Speaker 1: We just had to pay our one hundred dollars post

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Speaker 1: and forfeit and we got to leave. You know, but

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Speaker 1: in many of these situations, that is not what happens.

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Speaker 1: You go to jail, you get held, you get out,

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Speaker 1: you have to talk with lawyers, you have to show

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Speaker 1: up for court hearings. You know, several months to several

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Speaker 1: years of your life is potentially disrupted. Even if you

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Speaker 1: don't end out going to prison or paying thousands of

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Speaker 1: dollars and fines, you lose a lot of time and

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Speaker 1: you lose a lot of money in order to take

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Speaker 1: that principal stand. So it's not just a bunch of

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Speaker 1: spoiled kids that don't have to deal with any consequence.

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Speaker 1: They're really abusing, you know, major loopholes in our legal system.

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Speaker 1: They are accepting those consequences, or the kind of higher

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Speaker 1: calling of saying, no more fossil fuel infrastructure is not okay.

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Speaker 1: More oil spills are not okay. More disruption to the

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Speaker 1: sovereignty of indigenous nations whose treaties we have violated over

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Speaker 1: and over and over again is not okay.

436
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 3: Okay, So you you were saying there's there's four different

437
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 3: legislative packages that are kind of in play in Minnesota.

438
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: Right, and they're all aimed in differing ways that felonies

439
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 1: for individual violators as well as going after people affiliated

440
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: with them as well. So you don't even necessarily have

441
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: to commit the crimes. And this is you know, so

442
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: if you're a Sierra Club or a Green Peace or

443
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: any other organization maybe the American Civil Liberties Union, and

444
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: you're you've like been on email threads with these activists,

445
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 1: that raises the question, are you liable for the crimes

446
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: commit Like a fool I met could go do something

447
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 1: like spray paint a piece of equipment, and you know,

448
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: that just strikes me as exceptionally unfair that I could

449
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: possibly be held to account for that thing that I

450
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 1: didn't give permission to be affiliated with and I wouldn't

451
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: have recommended in YadA YadA. So that's a big part

452
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: of the problem with In Kansas, there is a similar bill,

453
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: as I believe I said earlier, that has passed out

454
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 1: of one of the legislative chambers and it has a

455
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: hearing tomorrow. There are some groups locally opposing it. Kansas

456
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: Interfaith Action has testified against the bill. The Kansas SIRA

457
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: Club has testified against the bill, and showing up against them,

458
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: of course, is the American Fuel and Petrochemical Manufacturers, as

459
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: well as the Wichita Regional Chamber. I'm going to go

460
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: ahead and guess pretty much means Coke Industries and SESNA.

461
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: I don't know who else in Wichita is a particularly

462
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: large company, and I'm gonna go ahead and guess that

463
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 1: CESSNA doesn't care about this law, so which is probably

464
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: that the lobbyist did mention We've heard a lot from

465
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: our members about this one, and I was like, yeah,

466
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: I bet I can tell you which one the other

467
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: bills are. In Montana, that law is being supported again

468
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: by trade associations that represent many of the usual suspects

469
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: trans Canada, Enbridge, Exon Mobile. It's the but it's being

470
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: done through groups that are not quite so obviously. So

471
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: in Montana, one of the groups that is supporting the

472
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: anti protest law is called the Treasure, State Resource Association

473
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: of Montana and State Resource Association, it turns out, represents

474
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: oil and gas companies, among amongst others. I saw the

475
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: American Chemistry Council is in there, and Bridge and exce

476
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: on Mobile are members. And then Montana Petroleum Association also

477
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: supporting the bill in Montana, and I believe it's pretty

478
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: much the same oil companies that are the members of

479
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: the Montana Petroleum Association as well the other states that

480
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: are considering bills Alabama and Arkansas. And Alabama that bill

481
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: has not yet moved. Arkansas's bill has passed in the

482
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: House and is working its way through the Senate. I

483
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: could not tell you in either of those states who

484
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: is advocating for it. If those states disclose that information,

485
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: I haven't been able to find it. They certainly don't

486
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: disclose it. And lobbying registrations, although I can't say that

487
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: Coke has registered to lobby in both of those states

488
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: I noticed. And then the kind of outlier, the state

489
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: that I'm afraid will peak a little too much interest

490
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: for some of the wrong reasons is Illinois. Because a

491
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: Democrat is sponsoring the bill in Illinois, and that has

492
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: been the situation in Illinois since the beginning. So in

493
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: Illinois as well as Wisconsin, there has been a different

494
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: strategy than has been used in most other states, and

495
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: that is the oil industry appeals to local trade unions

496
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: and the messaging in their hands. This is exactly what

497
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: happened to Wisconsin. I'm not sure about Illinois. The American

498
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: patrolluments to put messaging and talking points into the hands

499
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: of the local trade unions, who then lobby Democrats in

500
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: the legislature and championed the law that passed in Wisconsin.

501
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: In Illinois, I suspect the trend is similar because just

502
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,959
Speaker 1: in the last thirty six hours, in addition to Enbridge

503
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: and the American Patrollum Institute and some Illinois based lobbying organizations,

504
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: there are a lot of trade unions that have just

505
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: signed on and support of the bill. In Illinois, they're

506
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: supposed to be hearing today and I heard that this

507
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: bill was taken out of the calendar for discussion. I

508
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: don't know why. I don't have more details, but yeah,

509
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: it means I have no idea of what direction the

510
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: bill is heading towards. I don't know if that indicates

511
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: there's some sort of conflict or stall or if you know,

512
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: it's just there was some procedural reason why they delayed.

513
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: But I would keep my eyes out for Illinois. They

514
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: tried to pass a lot in twenty nineteen. It went

515
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: through one of the legislative chambers, but not the other.

516
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: And I'm sure they're going to try and fight like

517
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: hell again this year to get along in the books,

518
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: because this is a third year in the row that

519
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: they've they've tried pushing bills through Illinois.

520
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 3: That's interesting. Thank you so much for spending his time

521
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 3: with me.

522
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Great, Thank you so much for taking the time

523
00:32:51,600 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: to chat.

524
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 3: Okay, that's it for this time again. I will post

525
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 3: links to other stories about these bills in the show notes.

526
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 3: There will also be a story on the drillednews dot

527
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 3: com website with more on these anti protests bills. We've

528
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 3: covered this there a couple of other times in the

529
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 3: past as well. If you know about something like this

530
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 3: happening in your state, or you've heard interesting things about it,

531
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 3: feel free to shoot me a line. You can reach

532
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 3: me at Amy at drillednews dot com or on Twitter

533
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 3: at Amy Westervelt or at we Are Drilled. If you

534
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 3: would like to get ad free episodes of this podcast,

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Speaker 3: think about becoming a Patreon sponsor. That's at patreon dot

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Speaker 3: com slash drilled. You'll get ad free episodes. I often

537
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 3: drop episodes there early. We're going we do some bonus

538
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 3: content there, and you also have access to exclusive drilled merch.

539
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 3: Big thank you to some of our latest sponsors Stephanie

540
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Speaker 3: cass Luke Austin, Jason Grant, Rachel Lower, Aaron O'Day, Douglas Potter, Stavros,

541
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Speaker 3: Papa Vassilu, Dan Davis, The Sowest Society, Amy Geezeber's Fun Week,

542
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Speaker 3: Daniel Osiander. Thank you guys, you're really keeping us going here.

543
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:28,760
Speaker 3: I am reporting the next narrative season, got a couple

544
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 3: more interviews left to do on that. It's going to

545
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 3: be a deep dive on natural gas, where that term

546
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 3: came from, how it became the quote unquote bridge fuel,

547
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 3: that the industry talks about it as today, and what

548
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,399
Speaker 3: it has to do with the plastics boom. Make sure

549
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 3: you're subscribed to the podcast so you won't miss that

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Speaker 3: when it's ready, and please drop us a rating or

551
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 3: review if you get a minute. It really helps us

552
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 3: find new listeners. Thanks again and we'll see you next week.

553
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 3: M