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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: We are talking with doctor Leo Rukby.

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Speaker 3: He is uh.

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Speaker 2: He specializes in controversial areas of human belief and experience,

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Speaker 2: sometimes called exceptional human experiences, you know, basically all the

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Speaker 2: things that we love to talk about here on Coast

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Speaker 2: to Coast AM. So he had won third prize in

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Speaker 2: the Bigelow Institute for Consciousness Studies essay contests that's on

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Speaker 2: the best evidence for life after death and you know

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Speaker 2: how how to congratulations By the way, that's a big deal.

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Speaker 2: How many people actually entered an essay for that?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, right, I think it was something like thirteen

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Speaker 3: hundred initial applications, So because it was like a two

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Speaker 3: phase thing, so you have to actually apply for permission

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Speaker 3: to kate posenet. Because they had some criteria to I

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Speaker 3: mean just just kind of like screen out people who were,

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Speaker 3: you know, just really trying to hand that is, you

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Speaker 3: know that, so one of them was, for example, you

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Speaker 3: had to have a minimum of five years demonstrable involvement

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Speaker 3: in research in this field. So you know that to

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Speaker 3: screen out people like you know, a journalist, people they

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Speaker 3: can write well on any sort of subject, but are

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Speaker 3: not necessarily you know, experts in any of them. And

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Speaker 3: I think that was that was a pretty wise move

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Speaker 3: because otherwise people have had straight up thirteen hundred used

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Speaker 3: to wade through kind of fifted this year quantity and

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Speaker 3: the final number I think it was two hundred and

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Speaker 3: something that actually submitted essays, and they had a panel

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Speaker 3: of judges, seven judges who have course, they had to

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Speaker 3: read all of those essays, and I understand that's a

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Speaker 3: pretty grueling process four months in the summer of that

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Speaker 3: year to wait through all of this stuff and then

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Speaker 3: of course you know, discuss it amongst themselves and work out,

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Speaker 3: you know, which ones they were gonna champion, which ones

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Speaker 3: they were going to have been essentially, I mean, no

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Speaker 3: disrespect to people's work, but you know, they had to

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Speaker 3: come down with a with a choice, so it was

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Speaker 3: it was it was a very unusual process because you know,

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Speaker 3: of course this kind of competitions like this aren't usually

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Speaker 3: held with regard to this subject. So it was great

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Speaker 3: they wrote them ald and you know, this story was

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Speaker 3: featured in the New York Times and all this kind

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Speaker 3: of stuff, so it really got the kind of press

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Speaker 3: coverage that the subject used to get you know, way

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Speaker 3: back in the day we mentioned the Society Prosycutic Research

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Speaker 3: when they they held just one of their regular meetings,

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Speaker 3: it would get reported in the Times newspaper of London.

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Speaker 3: They would report on that, right, but they certainly don't anymore.

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Speaker 3: So it was great to see you know, our subject

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Speaker 3: back in the headlines. And and for good reasons. You

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Speaker 3: know that it was an exciting contest as a serious contest,

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Speaker 3: and the judges themselves were I mean they were all

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Speaker 3: top notch and you know, really honored to be judged

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Speaker 3: by them. They are really some some reputable names there.

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Speaker 2: Did you feel that the judges were diverse enough to

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Speaker 2: where you know, they would be open to something that

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Speaker 2: wasn't so scientific? But or was that the plan? It

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Speaker 2: had to be scientific?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean that was when the criteria was for

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Speaker 3: the actual etsy writing. Once you got past the first

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Speaker 3: hurdle that you had to present the best possible evidence

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Speaker 3: and it had to be beyond a reasonable diet. You

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Speaker 3: had that, you know, that legal bar that you had

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Speaker 3: to get over, so you very truly had to make

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Speaker 3: a case that other people were then going to judge,

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Speaker 3: so it needed to be strong in those terms, and

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Speaker 3: and that that points you towards presenting scientific evidence, because

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Speaker 3: that's that's the strongest form of evidence that we have.

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Speaker 3: So I think in terms of where these people were

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Speaker 3: judges themselves were coming from, they're you know, they're all

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Speaker 3: subject matter experts and they needed to be. You couldn't

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Speaker 3: have had this just judged by you know, people from

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Speaker 3: completely different fields or whatever. It wouldn't have been appropriate

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Speaker 3: and it would have produced, you know, the proper result.

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Speaker 3: So it was. It was all carefully planned and executed,

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Speaker 3: and you know, it was just amazing to you know,

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Speaker 3: you can come, Sarge and just this incredible experience.

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Speaker 2: I know, congratulations. I think that's great. Now, tell me

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Speaker 2: how did how did all that come about? With Robert Bigelow. He,

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Speaker 2: I mean, he's a great friend here of Coast to

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Speaker 2: coast am he we definitely spotlighted the contests, I believe

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Speaker 2: as he started it and then as it wrapped up

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Speaker 2: to George Knapp of course is a great friend as

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Speaker 2: well as George Norri and then I've recently got to

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Speaker 2: meet him and that's how I met you through that

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Speaker 2: not all that long ago in Vegas at his at

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Speaker 2: the headquarters and but I met him years and years

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Speaker 2: and years and years and years ago, and it was

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Speaker 2: soon after my dad had passed away, and I had

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Speaker 2: actually called him and got in contact with him to

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Speaker 2: talk about an alien type situation. He was He loved

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Speaker 2: Bud Hopkins as well and was working with Bud Hopkins.

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Speaker 2: And I knew Bud, but more so David Jacobs, and

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Speaker 2: so I was talking. I want to talk to him

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Speaker 2: about that, and for some reason the conversation went to

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Speaker 2: life after death and this was a long time ago,

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Speaker 2: which was weird because that's really kind of his thing,

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Speaker 2: isn't it. That's that is? Is that his biggest question?

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Speaker 2: And how did is that? How all this came about?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it's one of it's one of the

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Speaker 3: biggest questions, isn't it. And it's kind of pivotal to

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Speaker 3: everything else, this question because it comes down to consciousness.

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Speaker 3: You know what really what is consciousness? And does it survive?

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Speaker 3: Because it's the sort of life after death? I mean,

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Speaker 3: what is what is life? What is death? We don't

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Speaker 3: you know here, We've got this problem with consciousness, which

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Speaker 3: is its just it seems to be central to everything,

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Speaker 3: including you know, UFO phenomena, and you know, other aspects

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Speaker 3: of the paranormal and so on. So I think this

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Speaker 3: is this is always you know, they say, it's one

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Speaker 3: of the fundamental questions that we all think. And so

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Speaker 3: it was just perfect to have the opportunity to come

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Speaker 3: to terms with that, you know, and get to grips

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Speaker 3: of him, because I think when I started off writing,

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Speaker 3: I was very skeptical and it's and it's been an

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Speaker 3: issue that I'd just been kind of like flip flopping

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Speaker 3: on for for years, and we could just never get

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Speaker 3: off the fence because I would read, you know, one

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Speaker 3: piece of research which would be absolutely convincing, you think, wow,

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Speaker 3: that that seems to settle it, and then you would

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Speaker 3: read something else that would demolish it, and you'd be

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Speaker 3: just back to square one again. And so this, for me,

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Speaker 3: he gave me the opportunity to sit down and think, Okay,

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Speaker 3: I'm you know, I don't actually really believe in life

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Speaker 3: after death, but now I'm gonna you know, we've got

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Speaker 3: the chance here. Because you know, the prize money was

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Speaker 3: quite substantial, so it was a definite big carrot.

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Speaker 2: What was they how much did you win? What was

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Speaker 2: the top prize?

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Speaker 3: The top prize was what was it again? It was

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Speaker 3: half a million?

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Speaker 2: And what did third get? A brand new car?

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Speaker 3: Car?

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Speaker 2: What did you get?

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Speaker 3: I think you know that. The third prize was I

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Speaker 3: got to come on the show and talk to you.

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Speaker 2: So that was, Oh, well, we could look it up.

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Speaker 2: So it's not like, you know, I'm asking you something

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Speaker 2: too private, is it? I mean I think I could

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Speaker 2: look it up here.

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Speaker 3: Oh you can't. Yeah, you can find it on the website.

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Speaker 3: It just you know, I'm British.

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about I know you Brits. Oh

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Speaker 2: my gosh, come here, smack.

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Speaker 3: Terrible. Yeah, you're gonna.

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Speaker 2: Make me look it up. Come on. Well, congratulations for

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Speaker 2: what you got. But wait a minute, but you said

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Speaker 2: something you what.

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Speaker 3: What got as much as I did?

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Speaker 2: Oh I'm sure, absolutely absolutely, But you said something that

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Speaker 2: caught my attention. You don't even believe in life after death.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that at the start of the project, and

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Speaker 3: then this this was the chance to really say, Okay,

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Speaker 3: now I'm gonna I'm gonna sit down and I'm going

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Speaker 3: to work it out for myself. Is the evidence actually

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Speaker 3: convincing or not? And if at the end of the day,

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Speaker 3: I still came away as a kind of like a

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Speaker 3: non believer, I would at least have kind of closed

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Speaker 3: that subject for myself, you know, and I wouldn't be

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Speaker 3: in this eral flip flopping state. So it was absolutely

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Speaker 3: just worked it from a personal point of view to

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Speaker 3: undertake that, to answer that question, or to take on

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Speaker 3: that question. And and I find myself, you know, in

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Speaker 3: a position that I that I kind of describe at

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Speaker 3: the beginning of the book, so at the beginning of

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Speaker 3: the essay, and weirdly, and I have to explain how

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Speaker 3: I ended up structuring it and all the rest of it,

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Speaker 3: because yes, please, yes, it was accidentally picked up a

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Speaker 3: couple I think I kind of quote online or something

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Speaker 3: like that, and it accidentally led me to Charles Dickens

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Speaker 3: Christmas Carol of all things. I loved it.

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Speaker 2: I loved it, and that's where I started reading. I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is great. It's God rest you merry gentlemen. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's Scrooge, it's Evenezia. It's all great, so great, So

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you did that.

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Speaker 3: So one of the things about Scrooge, I mean, Scrooge

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Speaker 3: is always seen as you know, the miser figure. I

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Speaker 3: mean that, you know, he's the byword for that. But

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Speaker 3: why I ended up calling the Scrooge paradox. It's got

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Speaker 3: nothing to do with money, but it's got to do

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Speaker 3: with belief from personal experience, because at the beginning of

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Speaker 3: the story, Scrooge meets the ghost of his former partner

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Speaker 3: who comes back to essentially warm and that these spirits,

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Speaker 3: you know, the three spirits of Christmas, are going to

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Speaker 3: come to him and and show them what's wort in

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Speaker 3: the world. And at the beginning of the story, Screwge

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Speaker 3: has this conversation with the ghost which is just priceless,

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Speaker 3: and he said, you know, I don't believe in you.

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Speaker 3: I think the ghost is quite taken aback. You know,

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Speaker 3: why why don't you believe in them? And screws the

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Speaker 3: answer is basically, well, you know, you could be you

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Speaker 3: could be caused by indigestion, for example, so essentially that

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Speaker 3: you could be some sort of sigment of my imagination

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Speaker 3: that's caused by some kind of imbalance in my system essentially.

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Speaker 3: But but Dickens used this far more you know, humorous

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Speaker 3: way of talking about indigestion, and Scrooge ends up saying

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Speaker 3: that there's far more of the gravy than the grave

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Speaker 3: about you to this ghost, which you know causes them

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Speaker 3: to shrine terribly. And and I think that's the key thing,

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Speaker 3: is that we very often doubt our own experiences because

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Speaker 3: we've grown up in a materialistic society, you know, and we're

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Speaker 3: taught scientific materialism, and we're told about to believe in

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Speaker 3: these things and to rather look for psychological explanations. So

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Speaker 3: I thought, wow, that is actually me, you know, so

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Speaker 3: at the beginning of the essay, and then to take

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Speaker 3: on board Dickens and the Christmas Carol that I thought

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Speaker 3: he's describing me, and it also describes a lot of

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Speaker 3: other people because the convincing factor and a lot of

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Speaker 3: a lot of this is personal experience. So people who

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Speaker 3: have not had a personal experience will very often remain

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Speaker 3: doubtful in the face of the evidence. And I men,

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Speaker 3: people who have had an experience will remain doubtful. So

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Speaker 3: I've had experiences, but I'd ended up, you know, arguing

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Speaker 3: with them like Scrooge, and and I thought, wow, this

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Speaker 3: really this explains a lot, in just in psychological terms,

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Speaker 3: about how we've faced these these strange things in our lives.

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Speaker 3: And so that you know that that was a way

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Speaker 3: in which I was able to just see where I

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Speaker 3: was in in the in the bigger picture, and realized that,

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Speaker 3: you know, I was I was doing something that Charles

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Speaker 3: Dieting had described, you know, way back in the Victorian period,

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Speaker 3: and building on that. I mean, of course, you know Scrooge,

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Speaker 3: he starts off he's not believing in the ghost, but

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Speaker 3: he very soon does believe in in the ghosts of

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Speaker 3: the as the ghost of Christmas thrown up and torment

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Speaker 3: him with you know, had visions of his fate and

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Speaker 3: so on. And that that opportunity, you know, to kind

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Speaker 3: of face my own denial of the experiences and to

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Speaker 3: look at the evidence, to set the evidence yes, and

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Speaker 3: then to come away at the end of the process

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Speaker 3: and think, you know, yes, or did something to it.

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Speaker 3: And I had convinced myself. And I think that that

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Speaker 3: it's probably one of the things that you know, helped

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Speaker 3: me get the position that I did in the context,

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Speaker 3: because that kind of wrestling was going on in my essay.

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Speaker 3: But a lot of people go through themselves, and I

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Speaker 3: think the odd thing is that one of the explanations

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Speaker 3: for belief in life after death that you often come

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Speaker 3: across is that people find it comforting. You ever heard that, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: because it's comforting. You want to believe in it, you believe,

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Speaker 3: you want to believe in it. They want to say something, Well,

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Speaker 3: that was absolutely the opposite. I was fine with the

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Speaker 3: idea of annihilation and then oblivion.

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Speaker 2: You've always been that sick dude though we we all

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Speaker 2: known it. You've just been that guy. You know, you're

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Speaker 2: that guy. And if you didn't know, we thought that,

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Speaker 2: we all thought that. No, no, no.

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Speaker 3: No, you know, just this idea that you know, you've

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Speaker 3: kind of you've had your life and then you just

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Speaker 3: you switch off and that's it. And I was okay

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Speaker 3: with that, and it's it's it's slightly more terrifying to

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Speaker 3: think that it's going to go on.

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Speaker 2: Going on, especially if you're not happy it's going to

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Speaker 2: keep going on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm gonna be.

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Speaker 2: Unhappy for the rest of my eternity. Oh my gosh, No,

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Speaker 2: I understand what you're saying. Well, you know what, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of people absolutely afraid because they don't because

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Speaker 2: of just blackness or just darkness. You know, they're absolutely.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true, and I think that this is this

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Speaker 3: is what do you know. One of the beneficial things

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Speaker 3: come out of this context is it's not just you know,

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Speaker 3: say in the Ditual Winners or whatever. But we've we've

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Speaker 3: put all of the essays together and you know, we've

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Speaker 3: got them on the website of course you can download

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Speaker 3: them all for free, and we've also published them all

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Speaker 3: as a wonderful Box said, and just bringing all of

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Speaker 3: that work together is it's just kind of like a

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Speaker 3: sledgehammer on the on the nut of doubt because there's

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Speaker 3: there's the evidence is so overwhelming. You know, if you

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Speaker 3: if you sit down and read every single essay, I

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Speaker 3: don't see how you could still maintain that it's all

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Speaker 3: some sort of delusion, that it's all you know, misinterpretation

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Speaker 3: or look forethinking or any of these explanations, because we

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Speaker 3: do have very astonishing evidence and and armfuls of it.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: That's the thing. It's not just the old case here

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Speaker 3: and there, but we've got so much and from so

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Speaker 3: many different areas.

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