WEBVTT - Selects: The Kitty Genovese Story

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, everybody, it's me Josh, and for this week's select

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<v Speaker 1>I've chosen our twenty sixteen episode on the murder of

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<v Speaker 1>Kitty Genevies. Her story is fairly famous. She was murdered

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<v Speaker 1>while an entire apartment block of people watched and did nothing.

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<v Speaker 1>But that's not exactly the real story. Like most things

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<v Speaker 1>in life, there's more to it, and we explained what

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<v Speaker 1>actually happened. We relied a lot on the excellent documentary

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<v Speaker 1>The Witness for this episode, and I highly recommend watching it.

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<v Speaker 1>In the meantime, I hope you enjoy this one.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and

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<v Speaker 1>there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry So this

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<v Speaker 1>is Stuff you Should Know podcast True Crime Edition. Actually yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>but so much more than just a single crime. I agreed,

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<v Speaker 1>a crime that echoed throughout a city, throughout the world,

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<v Speaker 1>throughout decades. And it's true, man like, there are very

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<v Speaker 1>few crimes you can point to that had more of

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<v Speaker 1>an impact than the murder of Kitty Genovis.

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<v Speaker 2>Agreed, And there are a lot of true crime podcasts

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<v Speaker 2>out there. We are not trying to become one. No,

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<v Speaker 2>this is just something we do from time to time. Sure,

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<v Speaker 2>as I researched this, and as I watched did you

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<v Speaker 2>watch The Witness the documentary recently.

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<v Speaker 1>On Netflix right now?

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<v Speaker 2>It is HBO documentary, And I was disturbed, And I'm

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<v Speaker 2>glad it finally covered it in the documentary, But I

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<v Speaker 2>was disturbed that Kitty Genevie's and we'll get to her murder,

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<v Speaker 2>but very quickly she was murdered and became the symbol

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<v Speaker 2>for people not helping out.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, what came to be known as bystander apathy or

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<v Speaker 1>the bystander effect that the more people people who are around,

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<v Speaker 1>the less likely anyone is to help.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so she became such a symbol that you never

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<v Speaker 2>hear about Kitty Genevie's and who she was as a person.

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<v Speaker 1>That was one great thing about that documentary. There are

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<v Speaker 1>multiple great things about it, Yeah, but that it really

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<v Speaker 1>talked about her and showed her and yeah, revived her spirit.

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<v Speaker 2>Which I was really looking for because even in researching online,

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<v Speaker 2>it's hard to get a lot of information.

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<v Speaker 1>So some things, some even contemporary articles still aren't mentioning

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<v Speaker 1>that she was gay.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, her own brother who made the documentary didn't

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<v Speaker 2>know that she was gay.

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<v Speaker 1>No, it's true, but it's it's been out since. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not sure when actually that came out.

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<v Speaker 2>It was just this year.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh okay, so it was fairly new this year, last year. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that was like in the last five years maybe.

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<v Speaker 2>So in honoring that, why don't we talk a minute

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<v Speaker 2>about Catherine Genevieve's Kitty. Yeah, born in nineteen thirty five

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<v Speaker 2>and Brooke to Vincent and renee Legendavise, Italian American parents.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's weird, I don't see.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Rachel was her mother's name. She was Rachel Petroli

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<v Speaker 2>at first. So they lived in Brooklyn, and she was

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<v Speaker 2>very well loved in school.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she was like the leader of her clique.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And she was apparently a lot of fun and

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<v Speaker 2>a good mimic of her teachers. And she was voted

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<v Speaker 2>class cut up in her senior year. Graduating class. She

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<v Speaker 2>was to an all girls school in Prospect Heights, and

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<v Speaker 2>it was just, by all accounts, this vivacious, fun loving,

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<v Speaker 2>really sweet sweet lady, yeah or girl at that point.

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<v Speaker 1>Her little brother Bill, who ended up making the being

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<v Speaker 1>featured in the documentary The Witness. Yeah, was just in

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<v Speaker 1>love with her. She was just amazing.

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<v Speaker 2>They had a very special relationship.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think she was about thirteen years older than him. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>quite a bit, maybe twelve years older. I had a

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<v Speaker 1>sister like that, and like there's a very special relationship.

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<v Speaker 1>There's none of that sibling rivalry. Yeah, they're not old

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<v Speaker 1>enough to be your mother. That's just a it's a

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<v Speaker 1>unique situation to be a younger sibling and to be

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<v Speaker 1>able to inherit like all that worldly wisdom. Yeah, and

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<v Speaker 1>they're going through all their own things and their own

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<v Speaker 1>struggles and their own travails. But to that thirteen year

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<v Speaker 1>old younger brother, yeah, they know everything and they're the

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<v Speaker 1>coolest person walking the planet, and they're the kindest person

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<v Speaker 1>walking the planet because they've lived long enough to like

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<v Speaker 1>figure out some of the major stuff, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, even my own sister is only six years older,

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<v Speaker 2>and we very much had and still have that relationship

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<v Speaker 2>where and she and my brother are great now too.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know, when you're two or three years apart,

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<v Speaker 2>there can be a little bit of the knocking of heads.

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<v Speaker 2>But by the time I came along, I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, my sister was six. It was perfect. I

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<v Speaker 2>was a little baby doll for her. So anyway, that

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<v Speaker 2>was very much the relationship that Kitty had with Bill,

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<v Speaker 2>And it seemed like one of the old older brothers

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<v Speaker 2>always had a little bit of a like, yeah, she

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<v Speaker 2>always liked him better, Yeah, kind of attitude.

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<v Speaker 1>Seemed like everybody kind of knew like she liked Bill

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<v Speaker 1>the most.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, which I kind of felt bad for. But that's

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<v Speaker 2>just those family dynamics, man.

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<v Speaker 1>You know. The thing is, whenever you do start to

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<v Speaker 1>kind of talk about somebody who's died, especially someone who's

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<v Speaker 1>died violently and young, it's easy to canonize. Sure, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I really put them up on a pedestal and forget

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<v Speaker 1>their flaws. And of course I'm sure Kitty had tons

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<v Speaker 1>of flaws, but she didn't seem to have any from

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<v Speaker 1>from what I'm gathering, that were, you know, just terrible

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<v Speaker 1>flaws or that made her like a bad person. She

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<v Speaker 1>seemed like she was a like a overall above average,

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<v Speaker 1>great person.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, agreed. So New York was getting too dangerous for

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<v Speaker 2>her family they thought to have all these kids, so

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<v Speaker 2>they moved when she graduated high school to New Canaan, Connecticut.

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<v Speaker 2>And she said, you know what, I'm staying here in

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<v Speaker 2>New York. I'm eighteen now I love it here. She

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<v Speaker 2>got married for a brief time to a guy. Was

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<v Speaker 2>his name Rocco.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't remember his name, it's either.

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<v Speaker 2>Rocky or Roco. And in the documentary Bill tries to

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<v Speaker 2>get in touch with him. He's like, I really because

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<v Speaker 2>he found out she was gay and was like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we didn't even know this. I think Rocco can help

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<v Speaker 2>shed some light. And he very respectfully asked for his

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<v Speaker 2>own privacy.

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<v Speaker 1>He said, my relationship with Kitty will remain forever a mystery. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it's like, that's an oddson it was. I think he

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<v Speaker 1>just didn't want to. I mean, if she was gay

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<v Speaker 1>and they were married for a short time, he either

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<v Speaker 1>didn't know and maybe felt the fool or he did

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<v Speaker 1>know and was maybe trying to do right by her

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<v Speaker 1>in some way. Sure, either way, he didn't want to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about it. Right But she worked as a secretary

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<v Speaker 1>for a little while. She was a waitress for.

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<v Speaker 2>A little while. Eventually she was a bar made bartender

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<v Speaker 2>and then became bar manager at a place in Hollis

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<v Speaker 2>Queen's called EV's Eleventh Hour. That is a great barn well,

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<v Speaker 2>and from all accounts it was one of those wonderful

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<v Speaker 2>neighborhood bars a yeah, where the people were in there

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<v Speaker 2>getting sauced pretty early in the day, and everyone knew everyone,

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<v Speaker 2>and everyone loved Kitty and she helped take care of everybody,

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<v Speaker 2>but was very much an independent kind of firecracker of

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<v Speaker 2>a woman. Drove a red Fiat. Her dad used to

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<v Speaker 2>tease her about, like when you're going to find the

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<v Speaker 2>right guy. She was like, I make more money than

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<v Speaker 2>any guy I would go out with. I don't need that,

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<v Speaker 2>which is I guess nineteen sixties for dadam gay?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gay?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I can't say it. But she did make

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<v Speaker 2>pretty good doe as the bar manager. And then in

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<v Speaker 2>March nineteen sixty three she met a woman named Marianne

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<v Speaker 2>Zelonko at Swing Rendezvous. It was an underground lesbian bar

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<v Speaker 2>in the village, and they moved in together shortly thereafter.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and Kitty actually used to bring mary Anne home

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<v Speaker 1>with her to visit, but her family was all like, well,

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<v Speaker 1>they're just good friends and roommates, right, It's the sixties, right,

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<v Speaker 1>the early sixties.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And there's an audio interview with her in that documentary.

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<v Speaker 2>That's really touching.

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<v Speaker 1>Hm.

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<v Speaker 2>She didn't want to be on camera, but Bill was

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<v Speaker 2>able to speak to her. And I think what was

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<v Speaker 2>so compelling about this documentary was that he was It

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<v Speaker 2>was a search of a man looking for closure.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a harrowing sometimes almost unbearable to watch.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, search. It was tough.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, like he's had odds with his family here there. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>he he's just just doing things where if you watch

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<v Speaker 1>it in the context of the documentary and you follow

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<v Speaker 1>along the documentary, it all makes utter and complete sense. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>But then if you stop and remove yourself long enough

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<v Speaker 1>to be like, this is a documentary, which means this

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<v Speaker 1>guy really did this stuff. Yeah, and there was a

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<v Speaker 1>camera following him along while he was doing it. I

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<v Speaker 1>was like, I couldn't have done half of it. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>I know, you know, he really he just at one

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<v Speaker 1>point he calls it an obsession, but it's not. He

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't come off as.

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<v Speaker 2>Obsessed, right, agreed, you know? All right, So let's detail

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<v Speaker 2>the crime and then we will take a break after that.

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<v Speaker 2>How does that sound?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? All right?

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<v Speaker 2>So flash forward to March thirteenth, nineteen sixty four. It's

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<v Speaker 2>three point fifteen in the morning, and Kitty geneviez Is,

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<v Speaker 2>as she often did, was making her way home from

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<v Speaker 2>work late at night as a bar manager, and was

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<v Speaker 2>being trailed by a man, a man by the name

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<v Speaker 2>of Winston Moseley.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, who is definitely the villain of this story, but

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<v Speaker 1>is not the only one. It will turn out, right.

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<v Speaker 1>So Kitty was twenty eight and at the time she

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<v Speaker 1>was killed, and Winston, her killer, was twenty nine, just

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<v Speaker 1>turned twenty nine, I think like a week or so before.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think he said this is March thirteenth, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen sixty four.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he was married with a couple of kids.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, his wife, Elizabeth worked the night shift. She was

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<v Speaker 1>a hospital nurse, and Winston's mother stayed at home with

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<v Speaker 1>the kids. So he basically said, you know, oh, my

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<v Speaker 1>own house. I've got a great job operating computers. No

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<v Speaker 1>one even knows what I'm supposed to be doing with

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<v Speaker 1>him yet, but I'm making money doing it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. He was a smart guy.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'm gonna indulge myself. I'm gonna go out and

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<v Speaker 1>stalk women and murder them in my spare time. That's

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<v Speaker 1>what I'm gonna do. So that's what he was doing

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<v Speaker 1>on this night. He was cruising around looking for a

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<v Speaker 1>woman to kill.

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<v Speaker 2>Basically, Yeah, that was his direct quote in question. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I was looking for a woman to kill.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So he saw at a believe a red light,

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<v Speaker 1>this little red Fiat convertible caught his eye and there

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<v Speaker 1>was Kittie driving. So he started to follow her and

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<v Speaker 1>she parked, and she parked in the parking lot for

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<v Speaker 1>the Long Island Railway, which the parking lot went backed

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<v Speaker 1>up to the side of her apartment building, which is

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<v Speaker 1>a two story tutor job that had shops in the

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<v Speaker 1>bottom and apartments in the top. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this was in Q Gardens and Queen's. So he

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<v Speaker 2>followed her on foot. At this point she sees him

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<v Speaker 2>and knows that something is going on. He has a

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<v Speaker 2>knife in his hand, so she starts running. He catches

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<v Speaker 2>up to her by outside of a bookstore and stabs

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<v Speaker 2>her twice in the back right off the bat with

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<v Speaker 2>this knife.

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<v Speaker 1>Right. And she had been running toward a bar that

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<v Speaker 1>she thought would be open, but it turned out apparently

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<v Speaker 1>there was a new manager and the new manager had

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<v Speaker 1>closed down early. So when she stabbed twice in the back,

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<v Speaker 1>it's on this darkened street, but right across the street

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<v Speaker 1>Austin Street is a ten story apartment building with dozens

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<v Speaker 1>of windows looking out onto Austin Street, where she's being

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<v Speaker 1>stabbed in the back, and she screamed, she cries out.

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<v Speaker 1>I think she said something like, oh God, he stabbed me,

0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:30.520
<v Speaker 1>helped me, help me? Is what they said, basically, definitively

0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:35.080
<v Speaker 1>is what she screamed. And people who were witnesses to

0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:40.400
<v Speaker 1>this recounted that one guy said that he was I

0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:42.560
<v Speaker 1>think a ten or eleven year old kid who was

0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:45.200
<v Speaker 1>inside one of the apartments in the Mowbray apartment building

0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:48.440
<v Speaker 1>and that he was awoke and awakened from a deep sleep.

0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:50.680
<v Speaker 1>The scream was so loud, he said it was the

0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:56.280
<v Speaker 1>loudest thing he's ever heard. So she screams, and a

0:12:56.440 --> 0:13:01.319
<v Speaker 1>man living in the Mowbray apartment buildings window, what's his name?

0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:05.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Robert Moser opened his window and screamed out, hey,

0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:09.720
<v Speaker 2>get out of there. What are you doing? And Mosley

0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:12.640
<v Speaker 2>took off, Yeah, he took off running away.

0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:16.000
<v Speaker 1>He's very frequently misquoted as having said like let that

0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:19.480
<v Speaker 1>girl alone, but even by his own words in his

0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:22.560
<v Speaker 1>own testimony, he said, hey, get out of there.

0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:24.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, at any rate, he scared him away.

0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:25.040
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:32.120
<v Speaker 2>So in between that time, about thirty minutes passes, Kitty

0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:37.360
<v Speaker 2>makes her way around to the vestibule of her own building,

0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:45.480
<v Speaker 2>right yeah, and goes inside the vestibule, and like you think,

0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:49.160
<v Speaker 2>the horror is over for her. She could probably survive

0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:54.680
<v Speaker 2>these wounds, right, is in shock, I would imagine. And

0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:58.640
<v Speaker 2>then Mosley had went to his car, kind of checked

0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:00.760
<v Speaker 2>out the building, saw that some lights had gone on,

0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:03.880
<v Speaker 2>and reasoned to himself, no one's going to do anything,

0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:08.160
<v Speaker 2>puts on a different hat, and goes back, finds her

0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:12.160
<v Speaker 2>in the vestibule and finishes the job in the most

0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:13.600
<v Speaker 2>horrific ways you can imagine.

0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:17.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he stabbed her at least twelve more times. They

0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:20.440
<v Speaker 1>think at least she was stabbed at least fourteen times.

0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:23.120
<v Speaker 1>He said he doesn't remember how many times he stabbed her,

0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:26.360
<v Speaker 1>but he basically kept stabbing her until she stopped screaming.

0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:29.760
<v Speaker 1>She was still alive. I saw that he attempted to

0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:32.360
<v Speaker 1>rape her. I've also seen that he raped her. Yeah,

0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:35.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure which one's correct, but at one point,

0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.480
<v Speaker 1>and this is really important here, as he's stabbing her

0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:43.400
<v Speaker 1>and she's screaming, in the vestibule, there's a staircase that

0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:45.960
<v Speaker 1>leads directly up to a door, and behind that door

0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:49.400
<v Speaker 1>lived a man named Carl Ross. And Carl Ross opened

0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.800
<v Speaker 1>his door and looked down one single flight of stairs

0:14:53.400 --> 0:15:00.200
<v Speaker 1>at Winston Moseley stabbing Kitty Geneviez, who was bloody. There's

0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.440
<v Speaker 1>no confusing what was going on. And he closed the

0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:07.360
<v Speaker 1>door and he called his girlfriend, and his girlfriend said,

0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:11.800
<v Speaker 1>don't get involved. Yeah, I'm worried for you. Just leave

0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.360
<v Speaker 1>it alone. It's none in your business. And he did.

0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:16.560
<v Speaker 1>He didn't do anything, at least for a little while.

0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:19.040
<v Speaker 2>All right. So that's a good place to break here,

0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:22.040
<v Speaker 2>and we're going to come back and talk about who

0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:24.400
<v Speaker 2>saw and heard what and what they did about it

0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:53.360
<v Speaker 2>right after this, all right. So at this point, Kitty

0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:59.400
<v Speaker 2>Genevies is not dead yet, but dying in the vestibule.

0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:06.040
<v Speaker 2>A woman did come down and was with her. Her

0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:10.120
<v Speaker 2>name is Sophia Ferrar. She's still with us, and she

0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.800
<v Speaker 2>was a neighbor and friend of Kitty's. And so she

0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:18.160
<v Speaker 2>went down there and apparently was with her as she

0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:21.760
<v Speaker 2>passed away, tried to calm her down. Evidently did calm

0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:25.920
<v Speaker 2>her down, and likes to think that she at least

0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:28.760
<v Speaker 2>saw a friendly face and that she was being cared

0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:32.440
<v Speaker 2>for as she passed. The weird thing is is that

0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:34.600
<v Speaker 2>is not mentioned. I guess we got to get into

0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:35.480
<v Speaker 2>the New York Times now.

0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:40.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so after the murder, like the next day, the

0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:44.480
<v Speaker 1>Times ran four paragraphs on the kitty Geneva's murder. It

0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:49.080
<v Speaker 1>was not incredibly newsworthy at first, because that year there

0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.480
<v Speaker 1>was six hundred and thirty six murders in New York City.

0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:54.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that was just one of them, just one.

0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:59.400
<v Speaker 1>But a couple weeks later, the head the city editor

0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:01.680
<v Speaker 1>of the New York Times, a guy named ab Rosenthal,

0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:04.920
<v Speaker 1>who's a legendary journalist, was having lunch with I believe,

0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.480
<v Speaker 1>the police commissioner of the NYPD. And the commissioner said,

0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:11.320
<v Speaker 1>did you hear about that Genevieve's murder. That's one for

0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:15.120
<v Speaker 1>the books. Thirty eight people standing around watch the whole thing.

0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:17.439
<v Speaker 1>Nobody did a thing about it.

0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:19.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, now you've got a story.

0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:24.400
<v Speaker 1>Abrosenthal, legendary journalist, is like, uh, thank you for that. Yeh,

0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:28.760
<v Speaker 1>here's my diner's club card. I have to go now

0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:32.000
<v Speaker 1>and get this story done. So he did. He assigned

0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.960
<v Speaker 1>it out to a guy. What was the original reporter's name.

0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:39.879
<v Speaker 1>His name was Martin Gansberg, and they wrote on the

0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:42.720
<v Speaker 1>front page, I shouldn't say they wrote it was definitely

0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.000
<v Speaker 1>all Gansburg, but he was assigned and definitely under the

0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:48.960
<v Speaker 1>direction of Abrosenthal, like this, this is the story. Yeah,

0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:50.840
<v Speaker 1>thirty eight people stood around and did nothing.

0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:54.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the title of the article was thirty seven. It

0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.400
<v Speaker 2>was thirty seven at the time. Thirty seven who saw

0:17:56.520 --> 0:18:01.199
<v Speaker 2>murder didn't call the police. And basically the entire article

0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:06.280
<v Speaker 2>and the entire narrative from that moment forward for decades

0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:11.000
<v Speaker 2>was a not about this woman at all. Hardly she

0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.520
<v Speaker 2>became a symbol a b not necessarily even about the crime,

0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:18.960
<v Speaker 2>but about the crime of these people who didn't the

0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:22.480
<v Speaker 2>crime of apathy for these thirty seven or thirty eight people.

0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:27.520
<v Speaker 2>But it was very much misconstrued in the New York Times,

0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:30.400
<v Speaker 2>to the point where in two thousand and four they

0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:35.720
<v Speaker 2>all but wrote a retraction with new information because the

0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.919
<v Speaker 2>original article they said, like these people witnessed it. That

0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:43.439
<v Speaker 2>is not true. Maybe only a couple of people might

0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:47.600
<v Speaker 2>have actually seen anything with their eyeballs. The other thirty

0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:53.440
<v Speaker 2>five or thirty six may have heard someone screaming. They

0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:56.760
<v Speaker 2>might have thought it was a drunken couple in their

0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:00.160
<v Speaker 2>neighborhood coming home from a bar. There might have been

0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.040
<v Speaker 2>some apathy involved for sure for some of them. But

0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:07.159
<v Speaker 2>to characterize this as thirty seven or thirty eight people

0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.840
<v Speaker 2>witnessed this horrific crime and literally shut their doors and

0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:13.800
<v Speaker 2>windows to it was not accurate at all.

0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:19.320
<v Speaker 1>Right, they said, they said specifically, Well, the way that

0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:23.520
<v Speaker 1>they put it was that there were The way the

0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:26.320
<v Speaker 1>story read was that thirty eight people had watched this

0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:30.119
<v Speaker 1>murder which took place. They misreported that there were three attacks,

0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:32.919
<v Speaker 1>and that the man had been chased off twice and

0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:36.959
<v Speaker 1>came back two more times, but that this whole thing

0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:40.879
<v Speaker 1>had taken place over thirty minutes, this long, prolonged attack,

0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:43.000
<v Speaker 1>and that thirty eight people had just been sitting there

0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:47.960
<v Speaker 1>watching it, doing nothing, And that is definitely a mischaracterization

0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:50.919
<v Speaker 1>of what had happened, Like you're saying, for the most part,

0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:54.639
<v Speaker 1>people were earwitnesses, not eyewitnesses. There were certainly not thirty

0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:58.080
<v Speaker 1>eight eyewitnesses, and most people weren't in a position to

0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:03.359
<v Speaker 1>do much, if anything about it physically. But I don't

0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:06.479
<v Speaker 1>know if you could call it like a retraction because

0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:10.040
<v Speaker 1>the point that ab Rosenthal he never apologized for whatever.

0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:14.240
<v Speaker 1>Even in the documentary he's interviewed, Yeah, and he's like,

0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:17.400
<v Speaker 1>this is great, I'm glad that it did what it did.

0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:17.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:21.359
<v Speaker 1>Sure, The point is still there that there was apathy

0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:26.600
<v Speaker 1>in that there were two people who could have done

0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:31.960
<v Speaker 1>something and they didn't. But then from what the other

0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:35.920
<v Speaker 1>witnesses said, the scream was pretty clearly not a purse

0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:39.879
<v Speaker 1>snatching and not a couple fighting drunkenly that it was

0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:44.320
<v Speaker 1>a violent crime being committed on this woman. And people

0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:45.560
<v Speaker 1>still didn't do anything.

0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:51.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they misreported, possibly that no one called police. Apparently

0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:55.679
<v Speaker 2>perhaps up to three people called the police, although police

0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:59.480
<v Speaker 2>logs showed only one call came in. And it may

0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:02.359
<v Speaker 2>be a case of these people now telling themselves like

0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:04.680
<v Speaker 2>I called the cops that did something, sure, when they

0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:08.200
<v Speaker 2>may not have. They did not report at all that Ms.

0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:11.480
<v Speaker 2>Farrar had gone down to be with her. She was

0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:15.960
<v Speaker 2>not mentioned ever. So I kind of went from feeling like, yeah,

0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:18.120
<v Speaker 2>you know this bystander effect it had good. It led

0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:20.919
<v Speaker 2>to the nine to one one being created apparently in

0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:24.679
<v Speaker 2>some ways, and people study this in class and it

0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.359
<v Speaker 2>raised awareness. So you know, if they stretched it a

0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:29.520
<v Speaker 2>little bit, then it had a good effect. That's what

0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:34.120
<v Speaker 2>Abe basically, that was his position, That still is his position.

0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:35.280
<v Speaker 1>But well he's dead now.

0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:39.320
<v Speaker 2>Oh did he finally pass away? Yeah? And then I

0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:42.280
<v Speaker 2>finally came around and be like, no, you know, the

0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:44.919
<v Speaker 2>truth is what you should print. And if you're a

0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:47.439
<v Speaker 2>reporter and you run a story, you should print the

0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:51.679
<v Speaker 2>truth and not some sensationalized version of it to sell newspapers.

0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:54.320
<v Speaker 1>No, no, absolutely, I agree with you, And I think

0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:56.720
<v Speaker 1>the one thing that you can hang on, ab Rosenthal

0:21:56.840 --> 0:22:01.159
<v Speaker 1>is that that story was definitely fashioned in a manner

0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:04.800
<v Speaker 1>to be as sensational as possible, as shock and outrage

0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:07.840
<v Speaker 1>the public as much as possible. But I still think

0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:13.440
<v Speaker 1>it's rooted in the basic fact that there was apathy

0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:18.520
<v Speaker 1>involved and that it possibly allowed Winston Mosley to finish

0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:22.960
<v Speaker 1>the job that Kitty Genevie's might have survived had somebody

0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:25.840
<v Speaker 1>done more than just sit up, look out their window

0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:28.720
<v Speaker 1>and go back to bed or not even bother to

0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:30.960
<v Speaker 1>look out the window. And like you said, Chuck, like

0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:35.040
<v Speaker 1>this had a lot of impact because the story comes

0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:38.199
<v Speaker 1>out in nineteen sixty four and for forty years, it

0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:40.320
<v Speaker 1>wasn't until two thousand and four that the time saw

0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:44.440
<v Speaker 1>fit to like go back and really reinvestigate, and they did.

0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:48.399
<v Speaker 1>There was a great, great article called Kitty forty years later,

0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:53.600
<v Speaker 1>I think, and the author goes through and reinvestigates the

0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:56.720
<v Speaker 1>case and really sets a lot of facts straight. But

0:22:56.840 --> 0:23:01.439
<v Speaker 1>within that forty year period, the effects that this murder

0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:05.720
<v Speaker 1>had were just sweeping. It led to the establishment of

0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:08.240
<v Speaker 1>nine to one one. Yeah, it's a big one, sure,

0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:12.639
<v Speaker 1>and it created this whole field of psychology that looks

0:23:12.680 --> 0:23:16.239
<v Speaker 1>into the psychology of crowds, you know, and why we

0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:19.760
<v Speaker 1>would just stand around? What is this diffusion of responsibility?

0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:23.639
<v Speaker 1>None of that understanding existed until the kid Eachenevie's murder.

0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:28.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and weirdly, why is someone Why is a solo

0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:31.919
<v Speaker 2>witness more apt to act than a group of people.

0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:34.600
<v Speaker 1>One thing I saw is that it's called social influence,

0:23:34.600 --> 0:23:37.000
<v Speaker 1>and that we take our cues from others. So if

0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:40.040
<v Speaker 1>inaction is basically what is on the table right, then

0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:43.680
<v Speaker 1>we're going to be inactive as well. If people are

0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:47.760
<v Speaker 1>starting to move toward it, toward the problem, we'll probably

0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:49.120
<v Speaker 1>join in too.

0:23:49.440 --> 0:23:53.560
<v Speaker 2>I could see that or people thinking like, either I'm

0:23:53.600 --> 0:23:56.040
<v Speaker 2>not someone else's better equipped to deal with this than me,

0:23:56.840 --> 0:23:59.720
<v Speaker 2>or I feel like someone else will do this right,

0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:02.600
<v Speaker 2>so I don't have to. Yeah, a lot goes into play.

0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:03.480
<v Speaker 2>It's pretty interesting.

0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:06.479
<v Speaker 1>One of the less productive things that came out of it, though,

0:24:06.600 --> 0:24:08.560
<v Speaker 1>is this idea that when you live in a city,

0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:11.000
<v Speaker 1>in a big city, you put enough people together, everybody

0:24:11.000 --> 0:24:14.440
<v Speaker 1>stops caring about anybody else. They're all out for number one.

0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:19.280
<v Speaker 1>And Q Gardens became the center of this or just

0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:27.000
<v Speaker 1>such a symbolic example of urban care uncaring, I guess yeah.

0:24:27.040 --> 0:24:30.520
<v Speaker 1>And Kitty Jenaviez became a symbol of that as well,

0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:36.320
<v Speaker 1>and the need to do something, to act out to

0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:38.480
<v Speaker 1>help other people when you see them need help.

0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:41.600
<v Speaker 2>All right, So let's take another quick break here and

0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:44.200
<v Speaker 2>we're going to get back into what happened to mister

0:24:44.240 --> 0:24:47.720
<v Speaker 2>Moseley and the further effects of this crime after this.

0:25:13.520 --> 0:25:19.520
<v Speaker 2>So a week after this murder, Mosley was breaking into

0:25:19.560 --> 0:25:21.760
<v Speaker 2>a house. He's not a good.

0:25:21.600 --> 0:25:23.760
<v Speaker 1>Guy, No, he was a terrible guy.

0:25:23.840 --> 0:25:29.080
<v Speaker 2>He was beyond being a sociopath and a psychotic. Was

0:25:30.320 --> 0:25:33.119
<v Speaker 2>just a burglar and he would he was just straight

0:25:33.160 --> 0:25:35.800
<v Speaker 2>up robbing a house one day of a television and

0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:38.760
<v Speaker 2>one of the neighbors saw this called the cops. Cops

0:25:38.800 --> 0:25:39.640
<v Speaker 2>came and arrested them.

0:25:39.680 --> 0:25:43.120
<v Speaker 1>No, no, no, no, that's not true. What the neighbor.

0:25:43.480 --> 0:25:45.639
<v Speaker 1>Here's the thing, This is the great ironic twist of

0:25:45.680 --> 0:25:48.800
<v Speaker 1>the kiddie Jenavie's story. He went to a different neighborhood.

0:25:49.720 --> 0:25:51.920
<v Speaker 1>He was robbing a house and the neighbors said, hey,

0:25:51.960 --> 0:25:54.320
<v Speaker 1>what are you doing? And he started to run from

0:25:54.320 --> 0:25:55.920
<v Speaker 1>the house. The neighbor chased him and tackled him and

0:25:56.000 --> 0:25:57.400
<v Speaker 1>held him until the cops came.

0:25:57.840 --> 0:25:58.800
<v Speaker 2>Oh well, yeah, he called.

0:25:58.880 --> 0:26:02.199
<v Speaker 1>That's how he went down. Intervention. Yeah yeah, yeah, but

0:26:02.280 --> 0:26:05.200
<v Speaker 1>not apathy intervention right a week later?

0:26:05.480 --> 0:26:08.000
<v Speaker 2>Yes, okay, So at any rate, he calls the cops.

0:26:08.280 --> 0:26:13.920
<v Speaker 2>He gets arrested, and very like matter of factly, says

0:26:13.960 --> 0:26:16.760
<v Speaker 2>that he killed Kitty Genevies. And not only that, but

0:26:16.800 --> 0:26:21.400
<v Speaker 2>he killed supposedly two other women, a woman named Barbara Kralik,

0:26:22.480 --> 0:26:25.119
<v Speaker 2>well actually she was a girl, she's only fifteen, and

0:26:25.160 --> 0:26:29.120
<v Speaker 2>then a woman named Annie Mae Johnson. And apparently both

0:26:29.160 --> 0:26:32.240
<v Speaker 2>of them had been sexually assaulted. And he was never

0:26:32.320 --> 0:26:35.639
<v Speaker 2>tried for those, but he did plead not guilty by

0:26:35.680 --> 0:26:39.920
<v Speaker 2>reason of insanity, which did not work. Was sentenced to death,

0:26:40.000 --> 0:26:44.320
<v Speaker 2>and by luck of timing was able to appeal and

0:26:44.359 --> 0:26:47.119
<v Speaker 2>the death penalty had gone away for most crimes in

0:26:47.160 --> 0:26:51.800
<v Speaker 2>that time period, and he was resentenced to life in prison.

0:26:51.880 --> 0:26:55.439
<v Speaker 1>Yees. Supposedly the prosecution had withheld some evidence about his

0:26:55.520 --> 0:26:59.200
<v Speaker 1>mental state during his sentencing, so he was able to

0:26:59.240 --> 0:27:03.359
<v Speaker 1>get it reduced. So he was hanging out during his time,

0:27:05.280 --> 0:27:08.640
<v Speaker 1>and he was in Attica, I believe, and he had

0:27:08.640 --> 0:27:11.879
<v Speaker 1>injured himself and was being taken to the hospital, and

0:27:11.920 --> 0:27:14.800
<v Speaker 1>on the way there he got the gun away from

0:27:15.000 --> 0:27:19.400
<v Speaker 1>the guard who was escorting him and took off and

0:27:19.760 --> 0:27:24.240
<v Speaker 1>for I think five days, he basically just the city

0:27:24.240 --> 0:27:27.160
<v Speaker 1>of Buffalo was in mortal fear of the fact that

0:27:27.200 --> 0:27:29.960
<v Speaker 1>the guy who murdered Kitty Genovie's was now on the

0:27:30.000 --> 0:27:33.280
<v Speaker 1>loose in their town, and they were afraid, rightfully, so

0:27:33.359 --> 0:27:36.760
<v Speaker 1>he raped one woman. When the cops closed in on him,

0:27:37.160 --> 0:27:39.680
<v Speaker 1>he got a hold of five people and held him

0:27:39.720 --> 0:27:43.000
<v Speaker 1>hostage in a standoff that lasted for a little while

0:27:43.000 --> 0:27:46.760
<v Speaker 1>with the FBI before they finally got to him. He

0:27:46.880 --> 0:27:48.679
<v Speaker 1>was a bad dude, so they sent him back to

0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:53.000
<v Speaker 1>prison and they said you're not getting out here ever.

0:27:53.520 --> 0:27:55.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. He was later a part of the Attica prison

0:27:55.600 --> 0:27:59.760
<v Speaker 2>riots as well, and the one lady that he killed,

0:27:59.800 --> 0:28:05.320
<v Speaker 2>he he burned her alive like the family was upstairs. Yeah,

0:28:05.359 --> 0:28:08.600
<v Speaker 2>and he broke into her house, raped her, killed her,

0:28:08.960 --> 0:28:10.760
<v Speaker 2>and burned her alive in the home and the house

0:28:10.760 --> 0:28:14.080
<v Speaker 2>went up in flames. So it sounded like he had

0:28:14.119 --> 0:28:17.600
<v Speaker 2>no He sounded like a true sociopath, like he had

0:28:17.640 --> 0:28:21.480
<v Speaker 2>no not there's every reason for killing someone, but it

0:28:21.600 --> 0:28:25.640
<v Speaker 2>was always just at random because he wanted to do that.

0:28:25.640 --> 0:28:27.760
<v Speaker 1>That's a lot what it sounds like. It was a

0:28:27.840 --> 0:28:28.840
<v Speaker 1>self indulgence.

0:28:29.720 --> 0:28:35.240
<v Speaker 2>So in the documentary very powerful scene where the son

0:28:35.720 --> 0:28:38.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, the little brother of Kitty who was told

0:28:38.400 --> 0:28:41.920
<v Speaker 2>through his eyes interviews and sits down with one of

0:28:41.960 --> 0:28:47.920
<v Speaker 2>the sons of Moseley and it's just like, I mean,

0:28:47.960 --> 0:28:50.560
<v Speaker 2>you cut the tension with a knife. Obviously, it's just

0:28:50.600 --> 0:28:55.840
<v Speaker 2>so like fraught with tension. And he had told his

0:28:55.920 --> 0:29:00.160
<v Speaker 2>son that she was yelling racial slurs at him. So

0:29:00.240 --> 0:29:04.240
<v Speaker 2>said that he was just a getaway driver for some

0:29:04.440 --> 0:29:08.120
<v Speaker 2>mobster and the Genovese family was related to the crime

0:29:08.320 --> 0:29:11.960
<v Speaker 2>mob family, the Genovese family and none of this stuff

0:29:12.040 --> 0:29:15.920
<v Speaker 2>is true. And the brother was just like aid, no,

0:29:16.000 --> 0:29:18.400
<v Speaker 2>we're not related to that family at all. We have

0:29:18.480 --> 0:29:20.800
<v Speaker 2>nothing to do with that, and he just gives him

0:29:20.840 --> 0:29:22.760
<v Speaker 2>a look when he talks about the racial slurs, like,

0:29:23.480 --> 0:29:26.560
<v Speaker 2>come on, man, that's not what happened. So it was

0:29:26.600 --> 0:29:30.760
<v Speaker 2>a really really powerful scene of these two guys kind

0:29:30.800 --> 0:29:32.000
<v Speaker 2>of working it out in a way.

0:29:32.480 --> 0:29:34.720
<v Speaker 1>I didn't see them working anything out.

0:29:34.800 --> 0:29:36.840
<v Speaker 2>Oh see, I did, which made it even worse for me.

0:29:37.120 --> 0:29:39.720
<v Speaker 2>I thought there was some between them. They kind of

0:29:39.720 --> 0:29:42.240
<v Speaker 2>came to a nice, nicer place than where they'd started.

0:29:42.240 --> 0:29:43.600
<v Speaker 1>I did not catch that at all.

0:29:43.760 --> 0:29:45.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, maybe you skipped forward or something.

0:29:45.600 --> 0:29:50.920
<v Speaker 1>Maybe I was like, I can't take this kind of

0:29:50.960 --> 0:29:51.440
<v Speaker 1>fest forward.

0:29:51.480 --> 0:29:53.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, the Sun was saying, like, you know, I think

0:29:53.400 --> 0:29:57.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, we need to know the son of was

0:29:57.920 --> 0:29:59.680
<v Speaker 2>saying that they needed to move on from all this,

0:29:59.800 --> 0:30:02.200
<v Speaker 2>and and then the brother was saying, I definitely don't

0:30:02.440 --> 0:30:03.960
<v Speaker 2>you know the sins of the father and the sins

0:30:04.000 --> 0:30:06.960
<v Speaker 2>of the sons. Yeah, he said that, So you know,

0:30:07.400 --> 0:30:08.840
<v Speaker 2>I felt like they were better off than when they

0:30:08.880 --> 0:30:10.560
<v Speaker 2>started for having that conversation.

0:30:10.760 --> 0:30:12.240
<v Speaker 1>I honestly did not catch that.

0:30:12.520 --> 0:30:12.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:30:12.920 --> 0:30:21.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, regardless, Winston Mosley, after I guess after his second

0:30:22.280 --> 0:30:26.400
<v Speaker 1>his first escape, the second little crime spree in Buffalo,

0:30:27.920 --> 0:30:31.760
<v Speaker 1>when he was captured, he apparently reformed himself for he

0:30:31.800 --> 0:30:35.280
<v Speaker 1>claimed to be reformed. He got a degree in prison.

0:30:36.160 --> 0:30:38.600
<v Speaker 1>He wrote an editorial that The New York Times published

0:30:38.600 --> 0:30:41.400
<v Speaker 1>where he basically said, I'm a changed man. Yeah, And

0:30:41.480 --> 0:30:43.520
<v Speaker 1>everybody said, oh, look at that. It's just about the

0:30:43.560 --> 0:30:46.840
<v Speaker 1>time your first parole hearings coming up. This is great timing.

0:30:47.680 --> 0:30:49.960
<v Speaker 1>He went up before the parole board and they said no.

0:30:51.400 --> 0:30:53.440
<v Speaker 1>He went up before the parole board again, they said no.

0:30:53.600 --> 0:30:57.280
<v Speaker 1>He went up eighteen times, when eighteen times the parole

0:30:57.280 --> 0:30:57.920
<v Speaker 1>board said no.

0:30:58.400 --> 0:30:58.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:30:58.880 --> 0:31:00.200
<v Speaker 1>I think the last one was just a couple of

0:31:00.280 --> 0:31:02.680
<v Speaker 1>years before he died. But he died in twenty sixteen

0:31:02.720 --> 0:31:04.080
<v Speaker 1>at age eighty one in prison.

0:31:05.080 --> 0:31:07.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And he the brother tried to get an interview

0:31:07.440 --> 0:31:11.280
<v Speaker 2>with him, and he said no, that he didn't want

0:31:11.320 --> 0:31:15.480
<v Speaker 2>to be exploited anymore. And you could just feel this

0:31:15.600 --> 0:31:17.600
<v Speaker 2>brother's pain of like really wanting to try and to

0:31:17.600 --> 0:31:22.040
<v Speaker 2>talk him into it again. And the basically the people

0:31:22.080 --> 0:31:25.800
<v Speaker 2>that were the go between like, yeah, you know, you

0:31:25.840 --> 0:31:28.560
<v Speaker 2>can try, we can't keep you, but he's not going

0:31:28.560 --> 0:31:29.280
<v Speaker 2>to change his mind.

0:31:29.600 --> 0:31:29.800
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:33.800
<v Speaker 2>So he never got that interview, but I feel like

0:31:33.880 --> 0:31:36.640
<v Speaker 2>he got I don't think he was looking for answers.

0:31:36.640 --> 0:31:39.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean, in the documentary he went back to many

0:31:39.520 --> 0:31:41.840
<v Speaker 2>of these apartment windows just to look at what their

0:31:41.920 --> 0:31:44.880
<v Speaker 2>vantage point might have been. He got an actress to

0:31:45.520 --> 0:31:50.720
<v Speaker 2>recreate what the screaming would have sounded like from down

0:31:50.760 --> 0:31:55.000
<v Speaker 2>there on the street, which was very chilling scene. And

0:31:55.040 --> 0:31:57.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't know that he was looking for Like you said,

0:31:57.280 --> 0:31:58.680
<v Speaker 2>he was at odds with his family at times. You

0:31:58.720 --> 0:32:01.120
<v Speaker 2>could tell the one little brother was like, man, this

0:32:01.160 --> 0:32:02.840
<v Speaker 2>is hard on all of us, so you need to stop.

0:32:05.200 --> 0:32:06.880
<v Speaker 2>But I don't think he was necessarily looking for the

0:32:06.920 --> 0:32:09.480
<v Speaker 2>closure in that I want to find out for sure

0:32:09.520 --> 0:32:11.600
<v Speaker 2>if these people could have stopped it. I think the

0:32:11.640 --> 0:32:16.920
<v Speaker 2>closure comes more in the journey of learning about his

0:32:17.000 --> 0:32:19.520
<v Speaker 2>sister and learning as much as he can about this case.

0:32:20.120 --> 0:32:21.040
<v Speaker 2>It's really interesting.

0:32:21.160 --> 0:32:25.960
<v Speaker 1>It was very interesting that two thousand and four Times

0:32:26.040 --> 0:32:30.280
<v Speaker 1>article and then now this, this documentary has definitely exonerated

0:32:30.720 --> 0:32:33.360
<v Speaker 1>Q Gardens as a whole. They've said, now there's there's

0:32:33.400 --> 0:32:36.760
<v Speaker 1>way more nuance to this, there's way more. Yeah, but

0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:42.160
<v Speaker 1>two things. Two people that have not been exonerated are

0:32:42.240 --> 0:32:45.000
<v Speaker 1>guy named Joseph Fink and a guy named Carl Ross.

0:32:45.640 --> 0:32:47.320
<v Speaker 1>Carl Ross was the guy who lived at the top

0:32:47.360 --> 0:32:50.320
<v Speaker 1>of the vestibule who opened his door. Yeah, The ironic

0:32:50.360 --> 0:32:52.720
<v Speaker 1>thing about Carl Ross is if you notice it says

0:32:52.800 --> 0:32:57.160
<v Speaker 1>thirty eight witnesses, thirty seven did nothing. The thirty that

0:32:57.160 --> 0:33:00.920
<v Speaker 1>that last thirty eighth witness that the Times was referring

0:33:00.960 --> 0:33:02.920
<v Speaker 1>to was Carl Ross. They said, he's the one who

0:33:02.920 --> 0:33:05.560
<v Speaker 1>called the police. They called the police like long after

0:33:05.640 --> 0:33:10.880
<v Speaker 1>Kitty Genovits was dead. Yeah, so he was. Actually he

0:33:10.960 --> 0:33:13.560
<v Speaker 1>was actually, I don't want to say celebrated or whatever,

0:33:13.600 --> 0:33:17.040
<v Speaker 1>but he was exonerated initially by this Times article when

0:33:17.040 --> 0:33:18.640
<v Speaker 1>it turns out that he was one of the two

0:33:18.640 --> 0:33:20.680
<v Speaker 1>people who could have done something and didn't. The other

0:33:20.720 --> 0:33:23.080
<v Speaker 1>one was Joseph Fink, who saw the initial attack from

0:33:23.080 --> 0:33:26.120
<v Speaker 1>his vantage point in the elevator. He ran the elevator

0:33:26.160 --> 0:33:30.320
<v Speaker 1>in the Mowbray apartments across the street, and he apparently

0:33:30.800 --> 0:33:34.640
<v Speaker 1>saw what was happening and left his elevator and went

0:33:34.680 --> 0:33:38.520
<v Speaker 1>to bed. Yeah that was that. But again, it seems

0:33:38.560 --> 0:33:42.400
<v Speaker 1>like the overall feeling is okay. Other than those two guys,

0:33:42.440 --> 0:33:44.720
<v Speaker 1>everybody else is fine. I just disagree with that. I

0:33:44.720 --> 0:33:46.440
<v Speaker 1>think that there's a lot more that people could have

0:33:46.560 --> 0:33:50.520
<v Speaker 1>done that didn't, and I don't think it's a I

0:33:50.640 --> 0:33:52.560
<v Speaker 1>just don't think that everybody's off the hook for that.

0:33:53.040 --> 0:33:56.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yep, you got anything else?

0:33:58.320 --> 0:34:03.000
<v Speaker 1>No, man, If you want to know more about Kitty Genovise,

0:34:03.400 --> 0:34:06.640
<v Speaker 1>just search the Internet. There's a lot about her, but

0:34:06.680 --> 0:34:09.360
<v Speaker 1>be careful what you read because it's all over the place. Frankly,

0:34:10.320 --> 0:34:13.000
<v Speaker 1>and since I said Internet, it's time for listener mail.

0:34:15.719 --> 0:34:19.919
<v Speaker 2>Fish fraud follow up. Hey guys, I recently began began

0:34:19.960 --> 0:34:24.120
<v Speaker 2>a job as a marine fisheries observer for the Department

0:34:24.239 --> 0:34:27.239
<v Speaker 2>of Fish and Game and the Bearing Sea, And just

0:34:27.280 --> 0:34:31.000
<v Speaker 2>listen to your fish fraud episode. Each season, a percentage

0:34:31.000 --> 0:34:35.480
<v Speaker 2>of vessels fishing here at least are randomly selected to

0:34:35.560 --> 0:34:38.319
<v Speaker 2>have an observer on board to monitor the operations and

0:34:38.440 --> 0:34:42.440
<v Speaker 2>bycatch that come up in their pots or nets. The

0:34:42.480 --> 0:34:44.360
<v Speaker 2>presence of an observer is admittedly a bit of a

0:34:44.400 --> 0:34:46.680
<v Speaker 2>drag for this fishermen. We have to put up with

0:34:46.760 --> 0:34:53.040
<v Speaker 2>us skinny nerds. Ll He typed that we are generally

0:34:53.080 --> 0:34:56.239
<v Speaker 2>a great deterrent of any mischief at sea, But from

0:34:56.239 --> 0:34:58.400
<v Speaker 2>what I have seen, most of the fishermen are real sharp,

0:34:58.680 --> 0:35:02.200
<v Speaker 2>honest folks who know what they're doing. Of course, this

0:35:02.280 --> 0:35:04.800
<v Speaker 2>is only a small portion of all the vessels on

0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:07.080
<v Speaker 2>the water, and it isn't going to solve that problem

0:35:07.120 --> 0:35:09.239
<v Speaker 2>by any means, but you'd like to know that there

0:35:09.320 --> 0:35:13.960
<v Speaker 2>is some coverage on fishing vessels and processors. Thanks for

0:35:14.040 --> 0:35:19.040
<v Speaker 2>all the laughs, my dudes. That is from Kevin Alexandrowitz

0:35:19.760 --> 0:35:21.400
<v Speaker 2>in Olympia, Washington.

0:35:21.880 --> 0:35:23.520
<v Speaker 1>It's a lot. Kevin had no.

0:35:23.560 --> 0:35:26.840
<v Speaker 2>Idea, did you that these people did that.

0:35:26.600 --> 0:35:30.359
<v Speaker 1>That there's basically like a sky Marshall program fighting fish

0:35:30.400 --> 0:35:31.480
<v Speaker 1>fraud on the high seas.

0:35:31.640 --> 0:35:33.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we talked about that, we did.

0:35:33.640 --> 0:35:34.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I don't remember that.

0:35:35.080 --> 0:35:38.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we were just like it's just so infrequent and

0:35:38.120 --> 0:35:41.040
<v Speaker 2>random that you know, what's what good is it doing?

0:35:41.120 --> 0:35:43.799
<v Speaker 2>And sounds like he agrees in some ways, but.

0:35:44.000 --> 0:35:46.719
<v Speaker 1>Still have fun out there on the high seas, don't

0:35:46.719 --> 0:35:49.719
<v Speaker 1>get seasick. If you want to get in touch with us,

0:35:50.160 --> 0:35:51.960
<v Speaker 1>like Kevin did, you can send us an email the

0:35:51.960 --> 0:35:54.520
<v Speaker 1>Stuff podcast at House Stuff Works dot com and as always,

0:35:54.560 --> 0:35:56.360
<v Speaker 1>joined us at our home on the web. Stuff you

0:35:56.400 --> 0:36:00.680
<v Speaker 1>Should Know dot Com.

0:36:00.840 --> 0:36:03.719
<v Speaker 2>Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

0:36:03.840 --> 0:36:08.000
<v Speaker 2>more podcasts Myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

0:36:08.120 --> 0:36:09.960
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