1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's me Josh, and for this week's select 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: I've chosen our twenty sixteen episode on the murder of 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: Kitty Genevies. Her story is fairly famous. She was murdered 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: while an entire apartment block of people watched and did nothing. 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: But that's not exactly the real story. Like most things 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 1: in life, there's more to it, and we explained what 7 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: actually happened. We relied a lot on the excellent documentary 8 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: The Witness for this episode, and I highly recommend watching it. 9 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: In the meantime, I hope you enjoy this one. 10 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 11 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and 12 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry So this 13 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: is Stuff you Should Know podcast True Crime Edition. Actually yeah, 14 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: but so much more than just a single crime. I agreed, 15 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: a crime that echoed throughout a city, throughout the world, 16 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: throughout decades. And it's true, man like, there are very 17 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: few crimes you can point to that had more of 18 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 1: an impact than the murder of Kitty Genovis. 19 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 2: Agreed, And there are a lot of true crime podcasts 20 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 2: out there. We are not trying to become one. No, 21 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:26,919 Speaker 2: this is just something we do from time to time. Sure, 22 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 2: as I researched this, and as I watched did you 23 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 2: watch The Witness the documentary recently. 24 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: On Netflix right now? 25 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:40,759 Speaker 2: It is HBO documentary, And I was disturbed, And I'm 26 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: glad it finally covered it in the documentary, But I 27 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: was disturbed that Kitty Genevie's and we'll get to her murder, 28 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 2: but very quickly she was murdered and became the symbol 29 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 2: for people not helping out. 30 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: Right, what came to be known as bystander apathy or 31 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: the bystander effect that the more people people who are around, 32 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: the less likely anyone is to help. 33 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, so she became such a symbol that you never 34 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 2: hear about Kitty Genevie's and who she was as a person. 35 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: That was one great thing about that documentary. There are 36 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: multiple great things about it, Yeah, but that it really 37 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: talked about her and showed her and yeah, revived her spirit. 38 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 2: Which I was really looking for because even in researching online, 39 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,119 Speaker 2: it's hard to get a lot of information. 40 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: So some things, some even contemporary articles still aren't mentioning 41 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: that she was gay. 42 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, her own brother who made the documentary didn't 43 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 2: know that she was gay. 44 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,839 Speaker 1: No, it's true, but it's it's been out since. I'm 45 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: not sure when actually that came out. 46 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: It was just this year. 47 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: Oh okay, so it was fairly new this year, last year. Yeah, 48 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: that was like in the last five years maybe. 49 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 2: So in honoring that, why don't we talk a minute 50 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 2: about Catherine Genevieve's Kitty. Yeah, born in nineteen thirty five 51 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 2: and Brooke to Vincent and renee Legendavise, Italian American parents. 52 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 2: And it's weird, I don't see. 53 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: Oh. 54 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, Rachel was her mother's name. She was Rachel Petroli 55 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 2: at first. So they lived in Brooklyn, and she was 56 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 2: very well loved in school. 57 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, she was like the leader of her clique. 58 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, And she was apparently a lot of fun and 59 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: a good mimic of her teachers. And she was voted 60 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 2: class cut up in her senior year. Graduating class. She 61 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: was to an all girls school in Prospect Heights, and 62 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 2: it was just, by all accounts, this vivacious, fun loving, 63 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: really sweet sweet lady, yeah or girl at that point. 64 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: Her little brother Bill, who ended up making the being 65 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: featured in the documentary The Witness. Yeah, was just in 66 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: love with her. She was just amazing. 67 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: They had a very special relationship. 68 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think she was about thirteen years older than him. Yeah, 69 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: quite a bit, maybe twelve years older. I had a 70 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: sister like that, and like there's a very special relationship. 71 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: There's none of that sibling rivalry. Yeah, they're not old 72 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: enough to be your mother. That's just a it's a 73 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: unique situation to be a younger sibling and to be 74 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: able to inherit like all that worldly wisdom. Yeah, and 75 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: they're going through all their own things and their own 76 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: struggles and their own travails. But to that thirteen year 77 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: old younger brother, yeah, they know everything and they're the 78 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: coolest person walking the planet, and they're the kindest person 79 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: walking the planet because they've lived long enough to like 80 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: figure out some of the major stuff, you know. 81 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, even my own sister is only six years older, 82 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: and we very much had and still have that relationship 83 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: where and she and my brother are great now too. 84 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: But you know, when you're two or three years apart, 85 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 2: there can be a little bit of the knocking of heads. 86 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 2: But by the time I came along, I was like, 87 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 2: you know, my sister was six. It was perfect. I 88 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 2: was a little baby doll for her. So anyway, that 89 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 2: was very much the relationship that Kitty had with Bill, 90 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 2: And it seemed like one of the old older brothers 91 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 2: always had a little bit of a like, yeah, she 92 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: always liked him better, Yeah, kind of attitude. 93 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: Seemed like everybody kind of knew like she liked Bill 94 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: the most. 95 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, which I kind of felt bad for. But that's 96 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: just those family dynamics, man. 97 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: You know. The thing is, whenever you do start to 98 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: kind of talk about somebody who's died, especially someone who's 99 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: died violently and young, it's easy to canonize. Sure, you know, 100 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: I really put them up on a pedestal and forget 101 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: their flaws. And of course I'm sure Kitty had tons 102 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: of flaws, but she didn't seem to have any from 103 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: from what I'm gathering, that were, you know, just terrible 104 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: flaws or that made her like a bad person. She 105 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: seemed like she was a like a overall above average, 106 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: great person. 107 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, agreed. So New York was getting too dangerous for 108 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: her family they thought to have all these kids, so 109 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 2: they moved when she graduated high school to New Canaan, Connecticut. 110 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 2: And she said, you know what, I'm staying here in 111 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 2: New York. I'm eighteen now I love it here. She 112 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 2: got married for a brief time to a guy. Was 113 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 2: his name Rocco. 114 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: I don't remember his name, it's either. 115 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 2: Rocky or Roco. And in the documentary Bill tries to 116 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 2: get in touch with him. He's like, I really because 117 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 2: he found out she was gay and was like, you know, 118 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 2: we didn't even know this. I think Rocco can help 119 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 2: shed some light. And he very respectfully asked for his 120 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 2: own privacy. 121 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: He said, my relationship with Kitty will remain forever a mystery. Yeah, 122 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: it's like, that's an oddson it was. I think he 123 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: just didn't want to. I mean, if she was gay 124 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: and they were married for a short time, he either 125 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: didn't know and maybe felt the fool or he did 126 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: know and was maybe trying to do right by her 127 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: in some way. Sure, either way, he didn't want to 128 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: talk about it. Right But she worked as a secretary 129 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: for a little while. She was a waitress for. 130 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 2: A little while. Eventually she was a bar made bartender 131 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 2: and then became bar manager at a place in Hollis 132 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 2: Queen's called EV's Eleventh Hour. That is a great barn well, 133 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 2: and from all accounts it was one of those wonderful 134 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: neighborhood bars a yeah, where the people were in there 135 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,679 Speaker 2: getting sauced pretty early in the day, and everyone knew everyone, 136 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 2: and everyone loved Kitty and she helped take care of everybody, 137 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 2: but was very much an independent kind of firecracker of 138 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 2: a woman. Drove a red Fiat. Her dad used to 139 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 2: tease her about, like when you're going to find the 140 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: right guy. She was like, I make more money than 141 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 2: any guy I would go out with. I don't need that, 142 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 2: which is I guess nineteen sixties for dadam gay? 143 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: I'm gay? 144 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I can't say it. But she did make 145 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 2: pretty good doe as the bar manager. And then in 146 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: March nineteen sixty three she met a woman named Marianne 147 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 2: Zelonko at Swing Rendezvous. It was an underground lesbian bar 148 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 2: in the village, and they moved in together shortly thereafter. 149 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Kitty actually used to bring mary Anne home 150 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: with her to visit, but her family was all like, well, 151 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: they're just good friends and roommates, right, It's the sixties, right, 152 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: the early sixties. 153 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's an audio interview with her in that documentary. 154 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 2: That's really touching. 155 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: Hm. 156 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 2: She didn't want to be on camera, but Bill was 157 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 2: able to speak to her. And I think what was 158 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 2: so compelling about this documentary was that he was It 159 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: was a search of a man looking for closure. 160 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: It's a harrowing sometimes almost unbearable to watch. 161 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, search. It was tough. 162 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 1: I mean, like he's had odds with his family here there. Yeah, 163 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: he he's just just doing things where if you watch 164 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: it in the context of the documentary and you follow 165 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: along the documentary, it all makes utter and complete sense. Right, 166 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 1: But then if you stop and remove yourself long enough 167 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: to be like, this is a documentary, which means this 168 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: guy really did this stuff. Yeah, and there was a 169 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: camera following him along while he was doing it. I 170 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: was like, I couldn't have done half of it. Oh, 171 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: I know, you know, he really he just at one 172 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: point he calls it an obsession, but it's not. He 173 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: doesn't come off as. 174 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: Obsessed, right, agreed, you know? All right, So let's detail 175 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 2: the crime and then we will take a break after that. 176 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 2: How does that sound? 177 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: Yeah? All right? 178 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: So flash forward to March thirteenth, nineteen sixty four. It's 179 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 2: three point fifteen in the morning, and Kitty geneviez Is, 180 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: as she often did, was making her way home from 181 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 2: work late at night as a bar manager, and was 182 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 2: being trailed by a man, a man by the name 183 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 2: of Winston Moseley. 184 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: Yes, who is definitely the villain of this story, but 185 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: is not the only one. It will turn out, right. 186 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: So Kitty was twenty eight and at the time she 187 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: was killed, and Winston, her killer, was twenty nine, just 188 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: turned twenty nine, I think like a week or so before. 189 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: And I think he said this is March thirteenth, Yeah, 190 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four. 191 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was married with a couple of kids. 192 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, his wife, Elizabeth worked the night shift. She was 193 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: a hospital nurse, and Winston's mother stayed at home with 194 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: the kids. So he basically said, you know, oh, my 195 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: own house. I've got a great job operating computers. No 196 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: one even knows what I'm supposed to be doing with 197 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: him yet, but I'm making money doing it. 198 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. He was a smart guy. 199 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna indulge myself. I'm gonna go out and 200 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: stalk women and murder them in my spare time. That's 201 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: what I'm gonna do. So that's what he was doing 202 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: on this night. He was cruising around looking for a 203 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 1: woman to kill. 204 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 2: Basically, Yeah, that was his direct quote in question. Yeah, 205 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 2: I was looking for a woman to kill. 206 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. So he saw at a believe a red light, 207 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: this little red Fiat convertible caught his eye and there 208 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: was Kittie driving. So he started to follow her and 209 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: she parked, and she parked in the parking lot for 210 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: the Long Island Railway, which the parking lot went backed 211 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: up to the side of her apartment building, which is 212 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 1: a two story tutor job that had shops in the 213 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: bottom and apartments in the top. Right. 214 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, this was in Q Gardens and Queen's. So he 215 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 2: followed her on foot. At this point she sees him 216 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 2: and knows that something is going on. He has a 217 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 2: knife in his hand, so she starts running. He catches 218 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 2: up to her by outside of a bookstore and stabs 219 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 2: her twice in the back right off the bat with 220 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: this knife. 221 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: Right. And she had been running toward a bar that 222 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: she thought would be open, but it turned out apparently 223 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: there was a new manager and the new manager had 224 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: closed down early. So when she stabbed twice in the back, 225 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: it's on this darkened street, but right across the street 226 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: Austin Street is a ten story apartment building with dozens 227 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: of windows looking out onto Austin Street, where she's being 228 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: stabbed in the back, and she screamed, she cries out. 229 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: I think she said something like, oh God, he stabbed me, 230 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: helped me, help me? Is what they said, basically, definitively 231 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: is what she screamed. And people who were witnesses to 232 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: this recounted that one guy said that he was I 233 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: think a ten or eleven year old kid who was 234 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: inside one of the apartments in the Mowbray apartment building 235 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: and that he was awoke and awakened from a deep sleep. 236 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: The scream was so loud, he said it was the 237 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: loudest thing he's ever heard. So she screams, and a 238 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: man living in the Mowbray apartment buildings window, what's his name? 239 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, Robert Moser opened his window and screamed out, hey, 240 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 2: get out of there. What are you doing? And Mosley 241 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 2: took off, Yeah, he took off running away. 242 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: He's very frequently misquoted as having said like let that 243 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: girl alone, but even by his own words in his 244 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 1: own testimony, he said, hey, get out of there. 245 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, at any rate, he scared him away. 246 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: Right. 247 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 2: So in between that time, about thirty minutes passes, Kitty 248 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 2: makes her way around to the vestibule of her own building, 249 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 2: right yeah, and goes inside the vestibule, and like you think, 250 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 2: the horror is over for her. She could probably survive 251 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 2: these wounds, right, is in shock, I would imagine. And 252 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 2: then Mosley had went to his car, kind of checked 253 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 2: out the building, saw that some lights had gone on, 254 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 2: and reasoned to himself, no one's going to do anything, 255 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 2: puts on a different hat, and goes back, finds her 256 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 2: in the vestibule and finishes the job in the most 257 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 2: horrific ways you can imagine. 258 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, he stabbed her at least twelve more times. They 259 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: think at least she was stabbed at least fourteen times. 260 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: He said he doesn't remember how many times he stabbed her, 261 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: but he basically kept stabbing her until she stopped screaming. 262 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: She was still alive. I saw that he attempted to 263 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: rape her. I've also seen that he raped her. Yeah, 264 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: I'm not sure which one's correct, but at one point, 265 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: and this is really important here, as he's stabbing her 266 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: and she's screaming, in the vestibule, there's a staircase that 267 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: leads directly up to a door, and behind that door 268 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: lived a man named Carl Ross. And Carl Ross opened 269 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: his door and looked down one single flight of stairs 270 00:14:53,400 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: at Winston Moseley stabbing Kitty Geneviez, who was bloody. There's 271 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: no confusing what was going on. And he closed the 272 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: door and he called his girlfriend, and his girlfriend said, 273 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: don't get involved. Yeah, I'm worried for you. Just leave 274 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: it alone. It's none in your business. And he did. 275 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: He didn't do anything, at least for a little while. 276 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 2: All right. So that's a good place to break here, 277 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 2: and we're going to come back and talk about who 278 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 2: saw and heard what and what they did about it 279 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 2: right after this, all right. So at this point, Kitty 280 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 2: Genevies is not dead yet, but dying in the vestibule. 281 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 2: A woman did come down and was with her. Her 282 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 2: name is Sophia Ferrar. She's still with us, and she 283 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 2: was a neighbor and friend of Kitty's. And so she 284 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 2: went down there and apparently was with her as she 285 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 2: passed away, tried to calm her down. Evidently did calm 286 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 2: her down, and likes to think that she at least 287 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 2: saw a friendly face and that she was being cared 288 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 2: for as she passed. The weird thing is is that 289 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: is not mentioned. I guess we got to get into 290 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 2: the New York Times now. 291 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, so after the murder, like the next day, the 292 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: Times ran four paragraphs on the kitty Geneva's murder. It 293 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: was not incredibly newsworthy at first, because that year there 294 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: was six hundred and thirty six murders in New York City. 295 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was just one of them, just one. 296 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: But a couple weeks later, the head the city editor 297 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: of the New York Times, a guy named ab Rosenthal, 298 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: who's a legendary journalist, was having lunch with I believe, 299 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: the police commissioner of the NYPD. And the commissioner said, 300 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: did you hear about that Genevieve's murder. That's one for 301 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 1: the books. Thirty eight people standing around watch the whole thing. 302 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 1: Nobody did a thing about it. 303 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, now you've got a story. 304 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: Abrosenthal, legendary journalist, is like, uh, thank you for that. Yeh, 305 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: here's my diner's club card. I have to go now 306 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: and get this story done. So he did. He assigned 307 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: it out to a guy. What was the original reporter's name. 308 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: His name was Martin Gansberg, and they wrote on the 309 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: front page, I shouldn't say they wrote it was definitely 310 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: all Gansburg, but he was assigned and definitely under the 311 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: direction of Abrosenthal, like this, this is the story. Yeah, 312 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: thirty eight people stood around and did nothing. 313 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, the title of the article was thirty seven. It 314 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 2: was thirty seven at the time. Thirty seven who saw 315 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:01,199 Speaker 2: murder didn't call the police. And basically the entire article 316 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: and the entire narrative from that moment forward for decades 317 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 2: was a not about this woman at all. Hardly she 318 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 2: became a symbol a b not necessarily even about the crime, 319 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 2: but about the crime of these people who didn't the 320 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 2: crime of apathy for these thirty seven or thirty eight people. 321 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 2: But it was very much misconstrued in the New York Times, 322 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 2: to the point where in two thousand and four they 323 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 2: all but wrote a retraction with new information because the 324 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 2: original article they said, like these people witnessed it. That 325 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 2: is not true. Maybe only a couple of people might 326 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 2: have actually seen anything with their eyeballs. The other thirty 327 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 2: five or thirty six may have heard someone screaming. They 328 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: might have thought it was a drunken couple in their 329 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 2: neighborhood coming home from a bar. There might have been 330 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 2: some apathy involved for sure for some of them. But 331 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 2: to characterize this as thirty seven or thirty eight people 332 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 2: witnessed this horrific crime and literally shut their doors and 333 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 2: windows to it was not accurate at all. 334 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: Right, they said, they said specifically, Well, the way that 335 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: they put it was that there were The way the 336 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: story read was that thirty eight people had watched this 337 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: murder which took place. They misreported that there were three attacks, 338 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 1: and that the man had been chased off twice and 339 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,959 Speaker 1: came back two more times, but that this whole thing 340 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 1: had taken place over thirty minutes, this long, prolonged attack, 341 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: and that thirty eight people had just been sitting there 342 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: watching it, doing nothing, And that is definitely a mischaracterization 343 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 1: of what had happened, Like you're saying, for the most part, 344 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: people were earwitnesses, not eyewitnesses. There were certainly not thirty 345 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: eight eyewitnesses, and most people weren't in a position to 346 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: do much, if anything about it physically. But I don't 347 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,479 Speaker 1: know if you could call it like a retraction because 348 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: the point that ab Rosenthal he never apologized for whatever. 349 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: Even in the documentary he's interviewed, Yeah, and he's like, 350 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 1: this is great, I'm glad that it did what it did. 351 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 352 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: Sure, The point is still there that there was apathy 353 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: in that there were two people who could have done 354 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: something and they didn't. But then from what the other 355 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: witnesses said, the scream was pretty clearly not a purse 356 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: snatching and not a couple fighting drunkenly that it was 357 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: a violent crime being committed on this woman. And people 358 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: still didn't do anything. 359 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, they misreported, possibly that no one called police. Apparently 360 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 2: perhaps up to three people called the police, although police 361 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 2: logs showed only one call came in. And it may 362 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 2: be a case of these people now telling themselves like 363 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 2: I called the cops that did something, sure, when they 364 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 2: may not have. They did not report at all that Ms. 365 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 2: Farrar had gone down to be with her. She was 366 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 2: not mentioned ever. So I kind of went from feeling like, yeah, 367 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 2: you know this bystander effect it had good. It led 368 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 2: to the nine to one one being created apparently in 369 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 2: some ways, and people study this in class and it 370 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 2: raised awareness. So you know, if they stretched it a 371 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 2: little bit, then it had a good effect. That's what 372 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,120 Speaker 2: Abe basically, that was his position, That still is his position. 373 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: But well he's dead now. 374 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 2: Oh did he finally pass away? Yeah? And then I 375 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 2: finally came around and be like, no, you know, the 376 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 2: truth is what you should print. And if you're a 377 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 2: reporter and you run a story, you should print the 378 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 2: truth and not some sensationalized version of it to sell newspapers. 379 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: No, no, absolutely, I agree with you, And I think 380 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: the one thing that you can hang on, ab Rosenthal 381 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: is that that story was definitely fashioned in a manner 382 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: to be as sensational as possible, as shock and outrage 383 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: the public as much as possible. But I still think 384 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: it's rooted in the basic fact that there was apathy 385 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: involved and that it possibly allowed Winston Mosley to finish 386 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: the job that Kitty Genevie's might have survived had somebody 387 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: done more than just sit up, look out their window 388 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: and go back to bed or not even bother to 389 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: look out the window. And like you said, Chuck, like 390 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: this had a lot of impact because the story comes 391 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 1: out in nineteen sixty four and for forty years, it 392 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: wasn't until two thousand and four that the time saw 393 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 1: fit to like go back and really reinvestigate, and they did. 394 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: There was a great, great article called Kitty forty years later, 395 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: I think, and the author goes through and reinvestigates the 396 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: case and really sets a lot of facts straight. But 397 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 1: within that forty year period, the effects that this murder 398 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: had were just sweeping. It led to the establishment of 399 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: nine to one one. Yeah, it's a big one, sure, 400 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: and it created this whole field of psychology that looks 401 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,239 Speaker 1: into the psychology of crowds, you know, and why we 402 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: would just stand around? What is this diffusion of responsibility? 403 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: None of that understanding existed until the kid Eachenevie's murder. 404 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and weirdly, why is someone Why is a solo 405 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 2: witness more apt to act than a group of people. 406 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: One thing I saw is that it's called social influence, 407 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: and that we take our cues from others. So if 408 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: inaction is basically what is on the table right, then 409 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: we're going to be inactive as well. If people are 410 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: starting to move toward it, toward the problem, we'll probably 411 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 1: join in too. 412 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 2: I could see that or people thinking like, either I'm 413 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 2: not someone else's better equipped to deal with this than me, 414 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 2: or I feel like someone else will do this right, 415 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 2: so I don't have to. Yeah, a lot goes into play. 416 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 2: It's pretty interesting. 417 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,479 Speaker 1: One of the less productive things that came out of it, though, 418 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: is this idea that when you live in a city, 419 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: in a big city, you put enough people together, everybody 420 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: stops caring about anybody else. They're all out for number one. 421 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: And Q Gardens became the center of this or just 422 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: such a symbolic example of urban care uncaring, I guess yeah. 423 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: And Kitty Jenaviez became a symbol of that as well, 424 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: and the need to do something, to act out to 425 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: help other people when you see them need help. 426 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 2: All right, So let's take another quick break here and 427 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 2: we're going to get back into what happened to mister 428 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 2: Moseley and the further effects of this crime after this. 429 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: So a week after this murder, Mosley was breaking into 430 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 2: a house. He's not a good. 431 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: Guy, No, he was a terrible guy. 432 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 2: He was beyond being a sociopath and a psychotic. Was 433 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 2: just a burglar and he would he was just straight 434 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 2: up robbing a house one day of a television and 435 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 2: one of the neighbors saw this called the cops. Cops 436 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 2: came and arrested them. 437 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, that's not true. What the neighbor. 438 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: Here's the thing, This is the great ironic twist of 439 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: the kiddie Jenavie's story. He went to a different neighborhood. 440 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: He was robbing a house and the neighbors said, hey, 441 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: what are you doing? And he started to run from 442 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: the house. The neighbor chased him and tackled him and 443 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 1: held him until the cops came. 444 00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 2: Oh well, yeah, he called. 445 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 1: That's how he went down. Intervention. Yeah yeah, yeah, but 446 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: not apathy intervention right a week later? 447 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 2: Yes, okay, So at any rate, he calls the cops. 448 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 2: He gets arrested, and very like matter of factly, says 449 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 2: that he killed Kitty Genevies. And not only that, but 450 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 2: he killed supposedly two other women, a woman named Barbara Kralik, 451 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 2: well actually she was a girl, she's only fifteen, and 452 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 2: then a woman named Annie Mae Johnson. And apparently both 453 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 2: of them had been sexually assaulted. And he was never 454 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 2: tried for those, but he did plead not guilty by 455 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 2: reason of insanity, which did not work. Was sentenced to death, 456 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 2: and by luck of timing was able to appeal and 457 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 2: the death penalty had gone away for most crimes in 458 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 2: that time period, and he was resentenced to life in prison. 459 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 1: Yees. Supposedly the prosecution had withheld some evidence about his 460 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: mental state during his sentencing, so he was able to 461 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: get it reduced. So he was hanging out during his time, 462 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 1: and he was in Attica, I believe, and he had 463 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 1: injured himself and was being taken to the hospital, and 464 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: on the way there he got the gun away from 465 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 1: the guard who was escorting him and took off and 466 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: for I think five days, he basically just the city 467 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: of Buffalo was in mortal fear of the fact that 468 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: the guy who murdered Kitty Genovie's was now on the 469 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: loose in their town, and they were afraid, rightfully, so 470 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: he raped one woman. When the cops closed in on him, 471 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 1: he got a hold of five people and held him 472 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: hostage in a standoff that lasted for a little while 473 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: with the FBI before they finally got to him. He 474 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 1: was a bad dude, so they sent him back to 475 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: prison and they said you're not getting out here ever. 476 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. He was later a part of the Attica prison 477 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 2: riots as well, and the one lady that he killed, 478 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 2: he he burned her alive like the family was upstairs. Yeah, 479 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 2: and he broke into her house, raped her, killed her, 480 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 2: and burned her alive in the home and the house 481 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 2: went up in flames. So it sounded like he had 482 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 2: no He sounded like a true sociopath, like he had 483 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 2: no not there's every reason for killing someone, but it 484 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 2: was always just at random because he wanted to do that. 485 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: That's a lot what it sounds like. It was a 486 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: self indulgence. 487 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 2: So in the documentary very powerful scene where the son 488 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, the little brother of Kitty who was told 489 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 2: through his eyes interviews and sits down with one of 490 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 2: the sons of Moseley and it's just like, I mean, 491 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 2: you cut the tension with a knife. Obviously, it's just 492 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 2: so like fraught with tension. And he had told his 493 00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 2: son that she was yelling racial slurs at him. So 494 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 2: said that he was just a getaway driver for some 495 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 2: mobster and the Genovese family was related to the crime 496 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 2: mob family, the Genovese family and none of this stuff 497 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 2: is true. And the brother was just like aid, no, 498 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 2: we're not related to that family at all. We have 499 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 2: nothing to do with that, and he just gives him 500 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 2: a look when he talks about the racial slurs, like, 501 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 2: come on, man, that's not what happened. So it was 502 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 2: a really really powerful scene of these two guys kind 503 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 2: of working it out in a way. 504 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: I didn't see them working anything out. 505 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 2: Oh see, I did, which made it even worse for me. 506 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 2: I thought there was some between them. They kind of 507 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 2: came to a nice, nicer place than where they'd started. 508 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: I did not catch that at all. 509 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 2: Well, maybe you skipped forward or something. 510 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: Maybe I was like, I can't take this kind of 511 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: fest forward. 512 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 2: Well, the Sun was saying, like, you know, I think 513 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 2: you know, we need to know the son of was 514 00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 2: saying that they needed to move on from all this, 515 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 2: and and then the brother was saying, I definitely don't 516 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 2: you know the sins of the father and the sins 517 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 2: of the sons. Yeah, he said that, So you know, 518 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 2: I felt like they were better off than when they 519 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 2: started for having that conversation. 520 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: I honestly did not catch that. 521 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. 522 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: Well, regardless, Winston Mosley, after I guess after his second 523 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: his first escape, the second little crime spree in Buffalo, 524 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: when he was captured, he apparently reformed himself for he 525 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: claimed to be reformed. He got a degree in prison. 526 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: He wrote an editorial that The New York Times published 527 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: where he basically said, I'm a changed man. Yeah, And 528 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: everybody said, oh, look at that. It's just about the 529 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: time your first parole hearings coming up. This is great timing. 530 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: He went up before the parole board and they said no. 531 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: He went up before the parole board again, they said no. 532 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: He went up eighteen times, when eighteen times the parole 533 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: board said no. 534 00:30:58,400 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 535 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: I think the last one was just a couple of 536 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: years before he died. But he died in twenty sixteen 537 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: at age eighty one in prison. 538 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, And he the brother tried to get an interview 539 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 2: with him, and he said no, that he didn't want 540 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 2: to be exploited anymore. And you could just feel this 541 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 2: brother's pain of like really wanting to try and to 542 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 2: talk him into it again. And the basically the people 543 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 2: that were the go between like, yeah, you know, you 544 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 2: can try, we can't keep you, but he's not going 545 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 2: to change his mind. 546 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: Right. 547 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 2: So he never got that interview, but I feel like 548 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 2: he got I don't think he was looking for answers. 549 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 2: I mean, in the documentary he went back to many 550 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 2: of these apartment windows just to look at what their 551 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 2: vantage point might have been. He got an actress to 552 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 2: recreate what the screaming would have sounded like from down 553 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 2: there on the street, which was very chilling scene. And 554 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 2: I don't know that he was looking for Like you said, 555 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 2: he was at odds with his family at times. You 556 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 2: could tell the one little brother was like, man, this 557 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 2: is hard on all of us, so you need to stop. 558 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 2: But I don't think he was necessarily looking for the 559 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 2: closure in that I want to find out for sure 560 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 2: if these people could have stopped it. I think the 561 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 2: closure comes more in the journey of learning about his 562 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 2: sister and learning as much as he can about this case. 563 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 2: It's really interesting. 564 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: It was very interesting that two thousand and four Times 565 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: article and then now this, this documentary has definitely exonerated 566 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: Q Gardens as a whole. They've said, now there's there's 567 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: way more nuance to this, there's way more. Yeah, but 568 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: two things. Two people that have not been exonerated are 569 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: guy named Joseph Fink and a guy named Carl Ross. 570 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: Carl Ross was the guy who lived at the top 571 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: of the vestibule who opened his door. Yeah, The ironic 572 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 1: thing about Carl Ross is if you notice it says 573 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: thirty eight witnesses, thirty seven did nothing. The thirty that 574 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: that last thirty eighth witness that the Times was referring 575 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: to was Carl Ross. They said, he's the one who 576 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: called the police. They called the police like long after 577 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: Kitty Genovits was dead. Yeah, so he was. Actually he 578 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: was actually, I don't want to say celebrated or whatever, 579 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: but he was exonerated initially by this Times article when 580 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: it turns out that he was one of the two 581 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: people who could have done something and didn't. The other 582 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: one was Joseph Fink, who saw the initial attack from 583 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: his vantage point in the elevator. He ran the elevator 584 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: in the Mowbray apartments across the street, and he apparently 585 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: saw what was happening and left his elevator and went 586 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: to bed. Yeah that was that. But again, it seems 587 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: like the overall feeling is okay. Other than those two guys, 588 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: everybody else is fine. I just disagree with that. I 589 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: think that there's a lot more that people could have 590 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: done that didn't, and I don't think it's a I 591 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: just don't think that everybody's off the hook for that. 592 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, you got anything else? 593 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: No, man, If you want to know more about Kitty Genovise, 594 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: just search the Internet. There's a lot about her, but 595 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 1: be careful what you read because it's all over the place. Frankly, 596 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: and since I said Internet, it's time for listener mail. 597 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,919 Speaker 2: Fish fraud follow up. Hey guys, I recently began began 598 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 2: a job as a marine fisheries observer for the Department 599 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 2: of Fish and Game and the Bearing Sea, And just 600 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 2: listen to your fish fraud episode. Each season, a percentage 601 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 2: of vessels fishing here at least are randomly selected to 602 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 2: have an observer on board to monitor the operations and 603 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 2: bycatch that come up in their pots or nets. The 604 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 2: presence of an observer is admittedly a bit of a 605 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 2: drag for this fishermen. We have to put up with 606 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 2: us skinny nerds. Ll He typed that we are generally 607 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 2: a great deterrent of any mischief at sea, But from 608 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 2: what I have seen, most of the fishermen are real sharp, 609 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 2: honest folks who know what they're doing. Of course, this 610 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,800 Speaker 2: is only a small portion of all the vessels on 611 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 2: the water, and it isn't going to solve that problem 612 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 2: by any means, but you'd like to know that there 613 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 2: is some coverage on fishing vessels and processors. Thanks for 614 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 2: all the laughs, my dudes. That is from Kevin Alexandrowitz 615 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 2: in Olympia, Washington. 616 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: It's a lot. Kevin had no. 617 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 2: Idea, did you that these people did that. 618 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 1: That there's basically like a sky Marshall program fighting fish 619 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: fraud on the high seas. 620 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, we talked about that, we did. 621 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't remember that. 622 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, we were just like it's just so infrequent and 623 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 2: random that you know, what's what good is it doing? 624 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 2: And sounds like he agrees in some ways, but. 625 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: Still have fun out there on the high seas, don't 626 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 1: get seasick. If you want to get in touch with us, 627 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: like Kevin did, you can send us an email the 628 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: Stuff podcast at House Stuff Works dot com and as always, 629 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 1: joined us at our home on the web. Stuff you 630 00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: Should Know dot Com. 631 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 632 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 2: more podcasts Myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 633 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.