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Speaker 1: My fear is that as Americans fall deeper into these

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Speaker 1: conspiracy theory rabbit holes and normalize individuals like Dramires and Aguero,

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Speaker 1: our democracy is ultimately what is going to be at stake.

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Speaker 1: I think we could end up becoming a straight up

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Speaker 1: fascist state ruled by people with violent histories and tendencies. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: in our digital era, what most sells and what most

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Speaker 1: goes viral is the incendiary, the inflammatory, the things that

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Speaker 1: are the most divisive.

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Speaker 2: From fuduro media, it's Latino Usa a Maria Josa. Today,

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Speaker 2: social media influencers are fanning the flames of the immigration

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Speaker 2: debate in the US and they're Latino. There's been a

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Speaker 2: lot of talk lately about refugees and new migrants arriving

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Speaker 2: at the border with Mexico, and some political pundits are

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Speaker 2: blaming Joe Biden.

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Speaker 1: Folks, Let's make no bones about it.

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Speaker 3: There is a crisis at the border.

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Speaker 4: What we really need to be doing is stop incentivizing

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Speaker 4: people to come over here.

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Speaker 2: This is inhumane, it is wrong, and it is the

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Speaker 2: direct consequence of policy decisions by the Biden administration. The

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Speaker 2: truth is this is a decade's old issue and during

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Speaker 2: former President Donald Trump's tenure, migration to the US southern

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Speaker 2: border was already growing, especially during his last year in office.

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Speaker 2: This happened even after Trump implemented deterring policies such as

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Speaker 2: the Remaining in Mexico program, the Zero Tolerance policy, and

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Speaker 2: Title forty two Express expulsions. Border patrol facilities are currently full,

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Speaker 2: and the administration is opening more space for children to

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Speaker 2: be held.

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Speaker 5: Right now, as we speak, there are nearly nineteen thousand

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Speaker 5: unaccompanied microan children and federal custody across the board. Most

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Speaker 5: of them, more than fourteen thousand, are in shelters and

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Speaker 5: emergency facilities overseen by the Department of Health and Human Services.

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Speaker 4: Here outside the data facility, you can see and hear

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Speaker 4: the construction underway as the binded administration scrambles to stand

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Speaker 4: up temporary emergency shelters for unaccompanied migrant children encountered along the.

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Speaker 2: Soull Issues with people embarking on long journeys north to

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Speaker 2: the United States and people in crisis seeking asylum are

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Speaker 2: nothing new, but misinformation and hysteria across social media and

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Speaker 2: the news are burying historical knowledge and clouding many people's perspectives.

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Speaker 6: You have the ongoing epidemic of US policy and the

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Speaker 6: crisis that is not of migration as much as it's

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Speaker 6: the crisis of capitalism back by the kind of militarirism

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Speaker 6: and militarized policing that you see not just in the

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Speaker 6: United States, but in Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, On, Dudas,

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Speaker 6: on and on.

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Speaker 7: All those countries have struggled with poverty, with corruption, with violence.

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Speaker 7: The coronavirus pandemic and natural disasters have only exacerbated the problem.

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Speaker 7: But the problems in the Northern Triangle predate even these

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Speaker 7: recent disasters, and many were influenced by US policy.

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Speaker 8: It's not a border crisis, It's an imperialism crisis, is

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Speaker 8: a climate crisis, it's a trade crisis. And also it's

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Speaker 8: a carceral crisis, because, as I have already said, even

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Speaker 8: during this term and this president, our immigration system is

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Speaker 8: based and designed on our carceral system.

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Speaker 2: Today, I speak with investigative journalist Jin Guerrero about some

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Speaker 2: Mexican nationals who have been influencing right wing discourse about

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Speaker 2: the border in the US. In the end, my conversation

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Speaker 2: with Jen ended up taking a turn and revealing a

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Speaker 2: surprising intimate connection between her work and her own father.

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Speaker 2: And before we begin, a quick warning some language in

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Speaker 2: this episode might be difficult to listen to and might

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Speaker 2: be offensive to some of our listeners. And now Jin Guerero,

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Speaker 2: welcome back to Latino USA.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so Jane.

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Speaker 2: This it's quite disturbing. What we're talking about, essentially, is

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Speaker 2: Mexican citizens who are actively promoting misinformation to confuse the

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Speaker 2: debate about immigrants. And really there's a lot that is

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Speaker 2: based on this notion of Mexico as for the Mexicans,

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Speaker 2: we don't want these refugees. And in some ways I

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Speaker 2: have a feeling, having grown up Mexican and going to

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Speaker 2: the country, that this kind of talk is actually not new.

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Speaker 2: It's been around for a while. Mexico's really kind of

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Speaker 2: a very pro nationalist place. But I'm wondering, what do

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Speaker 2: you think when you hear me say that.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think that some of the ideas that Bomaznia

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Speaker 1: and Oskar Romirez are promoting have been around for a

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Speaker 1: long time in Mexico. This nationalism that is not uncommon.

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Speaker 1: I think where it gets problematic is where these individuals

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Speaker 1: start to really blend the language of QAnon into their

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Speaker 1: video streams, and they're promoting very dangerous white supremacist conspiracy

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Speaker 1: theories about the Jewish philanthropist George Soros or orchestrating a

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Speaker 1: so called invasion of the United States and the Democratic

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Speaker 1: Party allegedly funding child trafficking.

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Speaker 9: Sorrows is quiet right now. This accomplishment is planned the

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Speaker 9: automatic destruction of the United States of America. And one

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Speaker 9: of the most evil and demonic compacts that your sorol's

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Speaker 9: ass bank creating is the globalist compact of immigration that

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Speaker 9: it was.

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Speaker 1: Theories are that are actually meant to stir up hysteria

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Speaker 1: in the United States. So it's not so much about

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Speaker 1: what's going on in Mexico or in their hometowns. It's

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Speaker 1: more about trying to manipulate politics in the United States

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Speaker 1: through these through these other narratives.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Gene, So you start researching this story, and I mean,

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Speaker 2: what catches your attention. You're like scrolling through Facebook and

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Speaker 2: you come upon this You actually see like Sunyiga and Ramidez,

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Speaker 2: and that leads you down this rabbit hole. I mean,

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Speaker 2: how is it that you actually end up engaging with

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Speaker 2: them for the first time.

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Speaker 1: The first person I met was Balomazuniga. I had encountered

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Speaker 1: her just on accident, repeatedly while reporting out of the

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Speaker 1: migrant camps in twenty eighteen, back when Trump was really

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Speaker 1: rittling people up about the caravans that were arriving in

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Speaker 1: Tijuana and Valo Maasuniga was going down there and filming

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Speaker 1: videos of these people, and back then she was really

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Speaker 1: just kind of echoing a lot of the language that

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Speaker 1: Trump was using and using that to gain a very

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Speaker 1: large following. And so I interviewed her a couple of

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Speaker 1: times back then and then just kind of was keeping

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Speaker 1: track of her and through her materials and through my

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Speaker 1: conversations with the asylum seekers. More recently, I became aware

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Speaker 1: of the activities of oscar Ramides. He started live streaming

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Speaker 1: shortly after she did, using a lot of the same

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Speaker 1: language about this orchestrated invasion, conflating asylum seekers and asylums

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Speaker 1: seeking families with child traffickers, and conflating you know, their

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Speaker 1: advocates and nonprofits that are trying to provide them with

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Speaker 1: food and blankets and conflating them with traffickers as well.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk for a moment about oscar Ramides. He

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Speaker 2: goes by Oscar El Blue, and he goes on these

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Speaker 2: platforms and he identifies himself as a national broadcaster and

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Speaker 2: a reporter. So why is he identifying himself as a journalist.

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Speaker 2: Does he have any journalistic connection at all?

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Speaker 1: Shortly after he was deported from the United States, he

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Speaker 1: started broadcasting using mostly Facebook. Now he's gained a much

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Speaker 1: larger platform because he's repeatedly appearing on this US right

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Speaker 1: wing media network called Real America's Voice.

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Speaker 10: We're going to start this hour or evening hour at

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Speaker 10: the border near another wall with Oscar L Blue. Oscar

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Speaker 10: Ol Blue is with Border News network. Oscar We're in Tijuana.

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Speaker 10: Are you a citizen of Mexico?

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Speaker 11: Yes, sir, Yes, how you doing, Steve, God bless everybody

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Speaker 11: that is watching. Yes, I was born here in Mexico

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Speaker 11: and I'm a native right here from this particular state.

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Speaker 1: He's not, by any standards of journalism actually a journalist.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he'll go on camera and he'll interview the

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Speaker 1: asylum seekers for his largely US based followers. They're talking

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Speaker 1: in Spanish about their situation, and then he'll start saying

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Speaker 1: that they're blaming everything on Joe Biden and that they

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Speaker 1: came here because of Joe Biden, and he's just completely

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Speaker 1: mistranslating what they're saying to rile people up.

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Speaker 2: Well, that doesn't sound very journalistic. Has anybody given him

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Speaker 2: any kind of credentials.

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Speaker 1: As far as being employed by any news organization. No,

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Speaker 1: he is completely just an independent social media influencer who

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Speaker 1: calls himself a journalist.

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Speaker 2: So we've got to deal with what you just brought up.

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Speaker 2: Because Oscartiblu, who is Mexican. You said he was deported

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Speaker 2: from the United States. So what exactly happened.

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Speaker 1: He was living in the United States and he was

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Speaker 1: deported in two thousand and eight for a federal drug

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Speaker 1: trafficking conviction. He got caught trying to cross several large

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Speaker 1: packages of methamphetamine at the port of entry and he

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Speaker 1: was sentenced to four years in prison and was deported

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Speaker 1: after that. What is interesting is that in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: under the Trump administration, Ramirez, short after partnering with Real

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Speaker 1: America's Voice, was able to re enter the United States.

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Speaker 1: According to the Immigration and Nationality Act, someone with a

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Speaker 1: federal drug trafficking conviction would never be able to get

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Speaker 1: back into the United States except with a very hard

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Speaker 1: to get waiver from the Attorney General himself or someone

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Speaker 1: high up in the Department of Homeland Security, so essentially

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Speaker 1: he would need serious political connections. Shortly after, Ramirez went

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Speaker 1: on social media and starts calling Central Americans lazy, saying

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Speaker 1: that they're coming here for easy money, easy welfare, and

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Speaker 1: working with Real America's Voice to create hysteria around a

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Speaker 1: quote unquote invasion and child trafficking occurring among asylum seekers.

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Speaker 1: He was able to re enter the United States. There

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Speaker 1: is some speculation that he was able to do this

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Speaker 1: through his very close friend and business associate named Anthony A. Guido.

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Speaker 1: Anthony ag Wuiddo is a close friend of the congresswoman

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Speaker 1: from George, Marjorie Taylor Green, who's known for promoting quanon

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Speaker 1: conspiracy theories and you know, the big lie that the

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Speaker 1: election was stolen.

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Speaker 8: Anthony is someone that I've known for a couple of

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Speaker 8: years and have done activism work with.

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Speaker 1: There's actually a video of a widow driving Ramirez up

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Speaker 1: to the El Passive Port of Entry in early twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: where he apparently re enters the United States for the

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Speaker 1: first time since his deportation.

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Speaker 9: How's everybody doing a moscar?

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Speaker 11: Blue for Border Network News and America's Voice, and we

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Speaker 11: are live people from the United States of America in

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Speaker 11: El Paso. Thikas, I'm back in the United States of

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Speaker 11: America as an essential worker. God bless you, thank you

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Speaker 11: so much.

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Speaker 1: And Ramirez celebrates his re entry to the United States

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Speaker 1: and talks about how they're you know, he's getting a

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Speaker 1: second chance in life, life, and he's very grateful to

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Speaker 1: Aguado and to the Trump administration for this opportunity.

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Speaker 2: So what is he saying about migrants and the US

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Speaker 2: Mexico border.

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Speaker 1: He wears two different hats. Sometimes he'll go down to

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Speaker 1: the border and he'll put on this very humanitarian hat,

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Speaker 1: talking about how the asylum seekers need our help and

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Speaker 1: how how they're being neglected and how you know, Joe

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Speaker 1: Biden had promised them an opportunity in the United States

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Speaker 1: and he's breaking that promise. So he adopts sort of

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Speaker 1: the stance of the asylum seekers themselves. But then other

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Speaker 1: times he will wear a completely different hat where he

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Speaker 1: is casting the asylum seekers in a very negative light.

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Speaker 12: The problem is that people are too lazy to work

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Speaker 12: the land, and they have this, you know, and they

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Speaker 12: have this dream about the only solution is America, and

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Speaker 12: they're not fighting for their own land. There's just one easy,

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Speaker 12: easy welfare easy you know, America, Like, you know, they

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Speaker 12: need to take away all those privileges that they're giving

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Speaker 12: all these people.

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Speaker 1: And he goes down and he makes completely founded claims

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Speaker 1: about them forming fake marriages and fake families in order

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Speaker 1: to be able to go into the United States. And

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Speaker 1: he films videos of the migrants at their camps, sometimes

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Speaker 1: without getting the consent of these individuals, to broadcast their

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Speaker 1: images on Facebook and promote these narratives about an invasion

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Speaker 1: that is being orchestrated by George Soros and funded by

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Speaker 1: the Democratic Party.

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Speaker 2: So he has a platform here in the United States.

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Speaker 2: Can you talk about who's giving him these platforms and

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Speaker 2: how is he contributing to growing Steve Bannon's profile as well.

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Speaker 1: So Steve Bannon has this show called The War Room

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Speaker 1: on Real America's Voice, and he has been featuring him frequently,

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Speaker 1: I mean multiple times in the month of March alone,

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Speaker 1: quote unquote reporting out of these migrant camps and just

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Speaker 1: promoting hysteria about immigration and trying to blame Joe Biden

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Speaker 1: for this you know, quote unquote invasion at the border.

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Speaker 1: You know, Oskar Ramirez will go down to the border,

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Speaker 1: they'll film people coming across, and Ramirez in one appearance,

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Speaker 1: he said that the men that he had encountered looked

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Speaker 1: Middle Eastern, that he tried speaking to them in Spanish

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Speaker 1: and they didn't understand a word that he was saying,

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Speaker 1: and that clearly this is just an open gate for

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Speaker 1: shady individuals to be coming into the United States.

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Speaker 13: So I tried to talk to them in Spanish and

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Speaker 13: they did not understand a word that I was saying,

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Speaker 13: and they started talking in another language, and it looked

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Speaker 13: at by the way that I was hearing it, it

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Speaker 13: looked at Middle Eastern and their faces look Middle Eastern.

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Speaker 13: So yes, you know this is just an open an

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Speaker 13: open gate. Is this a hotspot?

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Speaker 1: Just paddling the same narratives that Steve Bannon was so

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Speaker 1: fond of during the Trump campaign, that these vulnerable and

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Speaker 1: desperate asylum seekers are just overwhelming the United States and

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Speaker 1: that they're full of bad people.

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Speaker 2: When we come back, we'll hear more about some of

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Speaker 2: these Latino right wing influencers. We're going to reflect on

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Speaker 2: the dangers of misinformation, and we're going to learn why

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Speaker 2: fighting ill informed narratives is really personal for Jingerero. Stay

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Speaker 2: with us, not yes, hey, we're back. We're going to

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Speaker 2: continue now with my conversation with reporter jan Guerrero about

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Speaker 2: her investigation into Mexican nationals who are fueling right wing

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Speaker 2: anti immigrant rhetoric in the United States. So another person

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Speaker 2: that you write about in your article for The Daily

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Speaker 2: Beast is a woman named Balomasu Niga. Tell us a

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Speaker 2: little bit about her.

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Speaker 1: Baloma for Trump, is a dual citizen who often live

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Speaker 1: streams in a make Tijuana Great Again red baseball cap,

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Speaker 1: and that's sort of her signature, like she gained a

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Speaker 1: very large following that way. She moved to the United

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Speaker 1: States when she was ten years old. Her mom from

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Speaker 1: Mexico married an American guy. And she was telling me

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Speaker 1: that when she was a little girl, her white stepsisters

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Speaker 1: used to make fun of her accent all the time,

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Speaker 1: and she says that she actually was grateful for this

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Speaker 1: because it made her speak English faster.

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Speaker 14: For years, I've seen what's going on at the southern border.

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Speaker 14: I've lived in Tijuana for eleven years, and I've seen

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Speaker 14: the destruction of America. Every day, moving north north, it

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Speaker 14: just keeps moving north. I have so much love, so

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Speaker 14: much respect for America and seeing it from the other side,

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Speaker 14: I literally prayed that someday someone would stand up and

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Speaker 14: do something until twenty fifteen when President Trump came along

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Speaker 14: and he was the answer to my prayers. As a

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Speaker 14: Mexican living in.

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Speaker 1: Mexico, her Facebook was taken down after some very controversial

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Speaker 1: activity in which she was caught on camera literally shoving

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Speaker 1: a migrant child. This migrant child was trying to enter

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Speaker 1: the United States with his father, and she was chasing

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Speaker 1: him and screaming at him to go home and that

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Speaker 1: he wasn't wanted here, and then she physically shoved this child,

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Speaker 1: said like.

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Speaker 13: Listen, let's go get them.

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Speaker 6: Let's go get them.

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Speaker 5: No, no.

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Speaker 13: Vice.

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Speaker 1: So she was sort of fading from relevance because of

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Speaker 1: her controversial profile, but now that the Biden administration has begun,

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Speaker 1: she and Ramirez are using this as an opportunity to

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Speaker 1: gain relevance again, essentially spreading Trumpian hatred and you know,

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Speaker 1: broadcasting out out of northern Mexico with the same kind

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Speaker 1: of rhetoric. And she used to collaborate frequently with Oscar himself,

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Speaker 1: but she also, like Ramirez, is affiliated with Steve Bannon.

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Speaker 1: You know, she attended his Border Wall symposium in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: just a few days before the al Paso massacre, in

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Speaker 1: which twenty three people were killed by a man citing

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Speaker 1: a quote unquote Hispanic invasion. She and many other influencers

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Speaker 1: attended the symposium near El Paso, where they live streamed

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Speaker 1: about a quote unquote invasion and urged citizens in the

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Speaker 1: United States to take things into their own hands. She

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Speaker 1: was also involved in a confrontation in which rocks were

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Speaker 1: thrown at asylum seekers. Very recently. She was filming the

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Speaker 1: asylum seekers without their permission and they asked her to

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Speaker 1: please stop, so.

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Speaker 15: Let me show you what they're gonna do. That's Brenza.

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Speaker 1: I mean, many of these asylum seekers in Tijuana, they

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Speaker 1: fear for their lives because of the death threats that

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Speaker 1: they're fleeing in Central America, and also just the gangs

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Speaker 1: that operate in northern Mexico and often pray on vulnerable

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Speaker 1: asylum seekers, so they don't want their locations broadcast, they

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Speaker 1: don't want their images on Facebook. She told them that

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to stop. I'm not afraid of you,

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Speaker 1: and so I went to the camp, and I spoke

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Speaker 1: to some of these asylum seekers and they tell me

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Speaker 1: that they're afraid of her, and and they're also just

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Speaker 1: very upset about the fact that these live streamers are,

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Speaker 1: you know, reducing chances of entering the United States by

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Speaker 1: whipping up hysteria about them and casting them in a

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Speaker 1: very negative light.

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Speaker 2: We reached out to Paloma Sunyia. She says she acknowledges

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Speaker 2: the incident on the border where she shoved a migrant

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Speaker 2: child and says it's not who she is.

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Speaker 3: I go back, I look at it, and I'm like,

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Speaker 3: what in the world, What in the world is that

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Speaker 3: you own word in the world? The hell that into me?

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's the only expression I can tell you,

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Speaker 3: what the hell go into me that day for me

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Speaker 3: to behave that way.

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Speaker 2: Paloma also says she's against illegal immigration and that she's

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Speaker 2: never accused Joe Biden, the Democrats, or local organizations of

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Speaker 2: human trafficking because.

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Speaker 3: I feel a lot of people on the right are

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Speaker 3: taking alarming words and using them and making stuff up

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Speaker 3: and making up all fours at the border because they

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Speaker 3: are and that's the truth.

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Speaker 2: Sunyiga also says she believes oskar Ramides has turned the

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Speaker 2: migrants in the Juana against her.

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Speaker 3: And I think once we get caught up in this whole,

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Speaker 3: like social media, all who have more views, you know,

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Speaker 3: who's going a little viral, that's when things become really

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Speaker 3: very nasty, and that's what that's what happens.

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Speaker 2: So I wonder about the fact that they are clearly

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Speaker 2: Latino Oscar and Paloma, and it seems like they are

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Speaker 2: really trying to get this message out to other Latinos

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Speaker 2: and Latinas in the United States and along the way

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Speaker 2: Mexicans as well. So does the fact that they are

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Speaker 2: Mexican does it legitimize the fact that they're saying these

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Speaker 2: things about other Latinos? Is that your understanding of perhaps

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Speaker 2: part of why they're connecting with not just Latinos but

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Speaker 2: white America exactly.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's a long tradition on the right, and

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Speaker 1: particularly in white supremacist circles, you know, people who paddle

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Speaker 1: race baiting ideas of using bread and black allies as

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Speaker 1: shields against criticism. So having Mexicans like Zuniga Remitis on

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Speaker 1: the border performing these right wing talking points on immigration

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Speaker 1: helps blunt these accusations of racism. Even though the problem

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Speaker 1: of colorism and internalized racism is well established among Latinos,

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Speaker 1: but it's all the more dangerous to have these individuals

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Speaker 1: spouting these hateful ideas because you know, the women in

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Speaker 1: the Midwest, largely these middle aged women who are watching

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Speaker 1: these videos can think to themselves, will see, I mean

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Speaker 1: even a Mexican person believes this, that means it's okay

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Speaker 1: for me to believe this. It means I'm not racist.

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Speaker 1: These are white supremacist conspiracy theories that are incredibly dangerous

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Speaker 1: to communities of color, not only the asylum seekers that

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Speaker 1: are hoping for a turn to request asylum in the

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Speaker 1: United States, but also LATINX communities in the United States.

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Speaker 1: And so this is sort of the same thing that

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Speaker 1: we're seeing here with people like Tramires and Sunigat being

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Speaker 1: used by these US right wing media networks and using

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Speaker 1: their followings on social media to allow white people in

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Speaker 1: the United States to sort of believe that it's okay

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Speaker 1: to have racist beliefs because brown and black people have

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Speaker 1: them too.

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Speaker 2: You've been concerned, Gene, that this isn't just about rhetoric

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Speaker 2: and talk right that when you went down to talk

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Speaker 2: to migrants and refugees at a camp in Tijuana that

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Speaker 2: they talked about the fact that now they've got people

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Speaker 2: which I used to live in Tijuana many years ago,

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Speaker 2: and the people of Tijuana were so open, never gonmo

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Speaker 2: gonringre towards anybody who was coming to the city. But

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Speaker 2: you said that, Actually, now, because of these conspiracy theories,

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Speaker 2: the migrants and refugee say that they're actually getting harassed exactly.

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Speaker 1: And now on top of those fears, they also have

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Speaker 1: to worry about the xenophobia and hostility that is being

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Speaker 1: incited against them in the United States to the point

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Speaker 1: where Joe Biden will be backed into a corner and

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Speaker 1: will not be able to implement a more humanitarian approach

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Speaker 1: that offers them an opportunity the way that he promised.

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Speaker 1: And their advocates fear that these videos, these live streams

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Speaker 1: might attract violent actors to the camp, Like they see

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Speaker 1: cars driving by slowing down by the migrant camp at night,

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Speaker 1: and they have no idea, like why are they being watched?

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Speaker 1: Who are these people? Is it because of the activities

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Speaker 1: of these live streamers who are promoting negative beliefs about them?

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Speaker 1: Is it because of the fact that their images are

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Speaker 1: being broadcast and now people know where they are. There's

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Speaker 1: more than a thousand asylum seekers at this migrant camp,

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Speaker 1: this particular migrant camp in Tijuana. And they're not people

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Speaker 1: who are trying to overwhelm the United States, and they're

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Speaker 1: not trying to sneak across. They are literally waiting for

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Speaker 1: their turn to enter the United States. Some of them

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Speaker 1: have been waiting for two years.

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Speaker 2: What's the motivation behind uh Oscara Meirez and Palom Matsuniga

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Speaker 2: doing this? Is there a money issue here? Is there

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Speaker 2: a political advantage? Have you been able to figure that out?

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Speaker 1: They would have claim that they are doing this for

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Speaker 1: the good of the United States, that they're trying to

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Speaker 1: save the United States from certain destruction, and that they're

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Speaker 1: doing it out of the good of their hearts. However,

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Speaker 1: you know, they do raise money off of these activities.

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Speaker 1: They have go fundme pages, they post their PayPal accounts,

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Speaker 1: and they basically crowdsource their incomes based on what they

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Speaker 1: are doing, based on these conspiracy theories that are so

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Speaker 1: viral and that gain them such a large following, So

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Speaker 1: there's money to be made. They're getting tens of thousands

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Speaker 1: of followers off of this, so there's also fame. They're

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Speaker 1: they're getting their names out there, and they're they're building

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Speaker 1: careers around this. As for Ramirez, you know, it got

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Speaker 1: him back into the United States. At one point, he

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Speaker 1: has this video for the summer of twenty nineteen where

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Speaker 1: he's talking about how it's his dream to re enter

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Speaker 1: the United States and how badly he wishes that he

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Speaker 1: could return, and only months later he was able to return.

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Speaker 1: Under the Trump administration, this administration that was instructing its

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Speaker 1: border agents and immigration officers to not exercise any acts

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Speaker 1: of discretion or leniency towards immigrants, even immigrants without any

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Speaker 1: criminal records. But Ramirez, after partnering with Real America's Voice

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Speaker 1: and peddling these hateful ideas, was able to get back

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Speaker 1: into the United States. So there's a lot to be

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Speaker 1: gained from this.

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Speaker 3: He watched my videos. You can go back to every

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Speaker 3: single one of my videos. You'll never see a PayPal

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Speaker 3: attached to it.

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Speaker 1: Never ever.

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Speaker 3: You know, my animal rescue, I do an animal rescue

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Speaker 3: and people don't need to that. But as far as

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Speaker 3: my activism or my political thing, you know, you don't

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Speaker 3: see me posting any Oh donate here, donate here, donate here.

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Speaker 2: There's another Latin know. His name is Anthony Awido, and

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Speaker 2: he actually called you out on Facebook live in a video.

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00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 2: Let's listen to part of what he said.

440
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 16: Why don't you go to the border meet me? Meet

441
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 16: me at the border, Bring your bodyguards, bring your camera crew.

442
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 16: I'll bounce around whatever border you want to go out

443
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 16: to seetheart, all right, and then you can prove your

444
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 16: points and actually show people.

445
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 2: Hey, I can't even a Whido's a liar.

446
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 16: Let's do that. I'm not going anywhere. We're gonna continue

447
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 16: to kick your ass and we're gonna continue to destroy

448
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 16: your damn narrative because we're not going anywhere. Order Network,

449
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 16: use America's Voice, used war Room.

450
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 8: We're out here.

451
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 16: We're not going nowhere.

452
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 2: What do you think about that?

453
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: Shortly after my story published in The Daily Beast, I

454
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: started to get notifications on my Instagram where I have

455
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: pictures of my niece and my family and all of

456
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: these trolls just telling me, you know, that I needed

457
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: to go meet agwidow at the border. And then I

458
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: realized that he was doing this live stream on Facebook

459
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: that lasted about forty five minutes. This was after I

460
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: had already reached out to him for comment and requested

461
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 1: to include his views in my story, and he had

462
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 1: told me that he doesn't speak to fake news. He

463
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: was urging his followers to tag and to comment on

464
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 1: my social media accounts. It was creepy, honestly. And after

465
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: I saw that video, you know, I received a few

466
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: other tips about agwidow, Like there's videos of him hunting

467
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: migrants at night where he's calling them roaches and mother

468
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: and I say hunting because that is really what it

469
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: looks like he's doing. You know, one woman is hunched over,

470
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: clutching her child, sobbing because she's so terrified of him

471
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: as he's chasing her with this far right extremist militia

472
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: called the Guardian Patriots. It's it's truly horrifying. And there's

473
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: many videos of Aguado doing this, terrorizing immigrants, chasing them

474
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: and screaming at them at the border at night.

475
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 12: I see, I thought, I final, Yeah, yeah, look.

476
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 13: At this woman.

477
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 10: Idol at Santa s Santa sit.

478
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 11: Yo.

479
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: I thought, I followed, Yeah, he's got these close ties

480
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: to anti immigrant militia. He's got the close ties with

481
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: Marjorie Taylor Green. He's been pictured with Ted Cruz with

482
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: Donald Trump's son Eric. He actually ran for Congress in

483
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: twenty twenty to represent the sixteenth district of Texas and

484
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: he lost in the primary, but he remains very well connected.

485
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 2: Latino USA reached out to Anthony Aguero for comment. In

486
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: his reply to us, he accused Jinga of being quote

487
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 2: racist and said she should quote focus on all the

488
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: child trafficking and human trafficking end quote. He also said

489
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 2: that Oscar Amides was like his brother and criticized Jin

490
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 2: Gueretro's reporting Andre Meides's past. We also reached out to

491
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 2: Oscar Amides, but we didn't hear back from him. So

492
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 2: there's a lot of concern about a lot of falsehoods here,

493
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 2: and in some cases, as you've shown us, some you know,

494
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 2: physical altercations. But what's the greatest thing that you're worried

495
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: about that could actually result from the spread of this

496
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 2: kind of disinformation, lies, and propagation of hatred.

497
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I mean, there's the problem of

498
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: violence that these narratives in sight. You know, we saw

499
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: that in al Paso, we see that across the United

500
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: States with the increase in hate crime, and the fact

501
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: that right now the number one threat to homeland security

502
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: in the United States is domestic terrorism in the form

503
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: of white supremacists. But there's also just the greater threat

504
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: to democracy overall. I mean, in twenty sixteen, like so

505
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: many Americans thought it was impossible that a man who

506
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: had bragged about groping women and called Mexicans rapists and

507
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: criminals could become president. What is at stake is our

508
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 1: ability to exist as a nation without you know, basically

509
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: being taken over by these collective delusions. And like for me,

510
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: you know, I'm a reporter, like reporting on this stuff,

511
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: but at the same time, this is also personal for me.

512
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: My dad I grew up believing he had paranoid schizophrenia.

513
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: He thinks that the CIA is targeting him and beaming

514
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: voices into his head. And in my first book, I

515
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: write about spending years trying to pull my father out

516
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: of his rabbit hole of conspiracy theory and trying to

517
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: bring him back to reality, and it was impossible. And

518
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: so the thing I've realized is once people fall into

519
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: these rabbit holes, it is so hard to pull them out.

520
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: And what makes me angry is that these swindlers are

521
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: praying all vulnerable lonely, often isolated people. Not all of

522
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: the people who ascribe to these really problematic conspiracy theories

523
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: are by nature evil or sadistic. Some of them are

524
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: just really lost and confused and are looking for a

525
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: sense of meaning in their lives. And so people like

526
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: Ramiris and a widow, they provide them with a scapegoat,

527
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: They provide them with a villain, and that gives them

528
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: a sense of meaning. And I think that that is

529
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: incredibly dangerous.

530
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: So when you say that this is personal for you,

531
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: I'm wondering, because a lot of people are just like, wait,

532
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 2: how can people believe these these kinds of conspiracy theories

533
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 2: that are so over the top, But you actually witnessed it.

534
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 2: Is that one of the reasons why you actually wanted

535
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 2: to try to uncover this is to just try to

536
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 2: understand for everybody else, to show us what, you know,

537
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 2: good hearted person, what they can actually fall victim to

538
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 2: in terms of misinformation.

539
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: Honestly, yes, that is what makes me want to shed

540
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: light on people who are peddling conspiracy theories and you know,

541
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: hateful propaganda, because I know that it can take over

542
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: people and it can endanger their own lives. I mean,

543
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: my dad. He thinks that wearing masks is stupid. He's

544
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: fallen into the conspiracy theory rabbit hole on COVID, and

545
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: so this has obviously endangered his life. He's a Mexican

546
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: immigrant who was a big fan of Trump's, you know,

547
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: back in twenty sixteen. He loved Trump because Trump was

548
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: anti establishment. My dad's against the medical establishment. He talks

549
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: about fake news, et cetera. So a lot of these

550
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: Trumpian views really appealed to him. And I understand that

551
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: they appeal to a lot of vulnerable people who are

552
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 1: lonely and who struggle with mental health issues that are undiagnosed.

553
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: And it's incredibly dangerous to those people and to communities

554
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: of color across the United States overall because of the

555
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: fact that they stir up hatred.

556
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: Do you worry, in fact that Latinos and Latinas in

557
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 2: the United States, because of our own complicated history in

558
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 2: this country, maybe internalizing the kinds of hate that we see,

559
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 2: you know, sprouted against us, that you worry that Latinos

560
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 2: and Latinas, like your dad, a Mexican immigrant, that this

561
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: is fertile ground for them. And you've kind of seen

562
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: it happen really close to you is do you carry

563
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: that concern with you?

564
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 1: I do. My dad's conspiracy theories that took over his

565
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 1: life and led him down this really destructive path that

566
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: played a huge role in my life, were in retrospect,

567
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: a manifestation of the systemic discrimination and racism that he

568
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: has experienced in this country. I mean, my dad tells

569
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 1: me that when he first came to the United States,

570
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: he was constantly ridiculed because of his Syco Mexican accent.

571
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: It's incredibly personal because I understand that these conspiracy theories

572
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: can literally destroy lives and can put entire families in

573
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 1: danger and communities of color in the United States overall.

574
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 2: Jean Guerrero, thank you so much for speaking with us

575
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 2: on Latino USA.

576
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.

577
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 2: Jing Guerrero is a journalist. Her investigation into right wing

578
00:35:55,680 --> 00:36:01,280
Speaker 2: influencers appeared in The Daily Beast, Mexican Maga Conspiracy Theorists,

579
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 2: Fan Flames at the Border. Also, you can learn more

580
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: about her work in a past episode of Latino USA.

581
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 2: It's called Hate Monger author Jinuerero and Stephen Miller. This

582
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 2: episode was produced by Rinaldo Leanos Junior and edited by

583
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: Andrea Lopez Gruzslo. The Latino USA team includes Massias Marta Martinez,

584
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 2: Julia Ta Martinelli, Gini Montalgo, Alejandra Saasadre and Julia Rocha,

585
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 2: with help from Raoul Berez. Our engineers are Stephanie Lebaud,

586
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,280
Speaker 2: Julia Caruso and Liah Shaw. Our digital editor is Luis Luna.

587
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 2: Our New York Women's Foundation Ignite fellow is Mari Esquinca.

588
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 2: Our intern is Oscarde Leon. Our theme music was composed

589
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 2: by Sane Robinos. If you like the music heard on

590
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 2: this episode, stop by Latinousa dot org and check out

591
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 2: our weekly Spotify playlist. I'm your host and executive producer

592
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 2: Maria Jojosa. Join us again on our next episode. In

593
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 2: the meantime, look for us on all of your social media.

594
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 2: Hi los BeO II.

595
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 17: Latino USA is supported by the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative and W. K.

596
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 17: Kellogg Foundation, a partner with Communities where Children Come First.

597
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 17: Funding for Latino USA is coverage of a culture of

598
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 17: health is made possible in part by a grant from

599
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 17: the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

600
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: The immigrantor Diyah. I'm Maria Nohosa. Next time I Latino USA.

601
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 2: Alejandra Guzman is known by many as Larina del Rock,

602
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 2: the Queen of roth Enespanol. We talked to her about

603
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 2: her rebellious beginnings, the Mexican women who inspire her, and

604
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: how she's learning to love her wrinkles. Thought I was

605
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 2: gonna die, but Mala, that's next time. On Latino you

606
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 2: were saying, mm hmm