1 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: How about your name? 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 2: Happened? Ashley Hockle? Thank you? 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: How old are you? 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 2: Thirty six? 5 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: What's your birthday? 6 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 2: Eleven thirteen eighty six. 7 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 3: Standing before Judge James Bonavent is Catherine Hockle. It's November 8 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, and she's here in a Montgomery County, 9 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 3: Maryland courtroom because Judge Bonavent has to decide if the 10 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 3: thirty six year old mother of three might finally be 11 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 3: fit enough to stand trial for the murder of two 12 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 3: of her children. 13 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: Do you know what evidence is? Yes, sir, mat don't 14 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: want you to tell me anything about circumstances in this case, 15 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: but generally, what is evidence? 16 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 2: Something that makes things, something that's used for a case, 17 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 2: good or bad. 18 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 3: Today Catherine calls the Clifton T. Perkins Hospital Center in Jessup, Maryland, 19 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 3: a psychiatric hospital home. She's been there, locked up for 20 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 3: nearly a decade, charged with the first degree murders of 21 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 3: two year old Jacob and three year old Sarah, but 22 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 3: yet to stand trial because for the past eight years, 23 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 3: Catherine has been deemed incompetent. 24 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: Do you know what attorneys do? Yes, Anna, tell me 25 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: what attorneys do? 26 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: A pass q or defend. 27 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: What should an attorney know. 28 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 2: What happened at the alleged crime. 29 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 3: Being incompetent to stand trial is not the same as 30 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 3: being found insane or not criminally responsible. Competency deals with 31 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 3: Catherine's state of mind since her arrest. In order for 32 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 3: Catherine to receive a fair trial, she has to understand 33 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 3: the proceedings, the role of the judge and jury, and 34 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 3: her lawyer and the prosecutor, the whole process. 35 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: Is there anything else that they should know? 36 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 2: I can't think of anything right now. I'm not very 37 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 2: good at pope speaking. 38 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 3: As Catherine sits in that Marilyn courtroom, she does know 39 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 3: where she is, she understands what's happening to her and why. 40 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 3: But for the last eight years, psychiatrists have regularly determined 41 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 3: that she's not well enough to assist her lawyer in 42 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 3: her own defense, and that this is what makes her incompetent. 43 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of the phrase attorney client privilege? Yes, sir, 44 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: what do you think that means? 45 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: It's a private conversation with you and your attorney. 46 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:49,399 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Matt. 47 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 4: She left with Jacob to go get pizza right up 48 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 4: the street and came back three and a half hours 49 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 4: without him. 50 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 3: September seventh, twenty fourteen, would be the last Dey Troy 51 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 3: Turner would ever see his kids again, because not only 52 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 3: did Catherine fail to bring two year old Jacob back 53 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 3: home after a supposed pizza run, she also took her 54 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 3: three year old daughter, Sarah sometime that night or early morning. 55 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 3: She never came home with her either. To this day, 56 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 3: their bodies have not been found. It's not clear where 57 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 3: Catherine took the kids or why, and she continues to 58 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 3: insist that her children have not come to any harm. 59 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 4: They were great kids. They both had very sweet souls. 60 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 4: I used to call Sarah my tomboy princess. She loved 61 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 4: to play fight with me and the boys. She would 62 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 4: come to defend her brothers because I would be, you know, 63 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 4: slamming them around stuff, and she would punch me in 64 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 4: spell m and I'd be like, okay, play time's over. 65 00:03:58,720 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: Oh. 66 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 5: She was just a sweetheart, and. 67 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 4: You know, she didn't take any stuff from her brothers. 68 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 4: And then Jacob was just super sweet. He always smiled, 69 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 4: he was just always happy. 70 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 2: And. 71 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 4: He would hate for any of his older siblings to 72 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 4: be in trouble. 73 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 3: I found out about this story when I received a 74 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 3: Facebook message on January twenty third, twenty twenty two. 75 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 6: It was from a family. 76 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 3: Member close to Sarah and Jacob's father, Troy, pleading with 77 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 3: me to help them. My name is Sarah Treleven. I'm 78 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 3: a journalist and I had recently appeared on an episode 79 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 3: of the news program twenty twenty about another podcast I made, 80 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 3: this one about a woman recently convicted of murdering her 81 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 3: two children, Lori Valo Davel. When the show aired, I 82 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 3: heard from a number of people who are desperate in 83 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 3: some way. They wanted help solving cases of their missing children, parents, partners. 84 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 3: They all wanted the media to pay it attention to 85 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 3: something that had gone terribly wrong in their lives. 86 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 6: This one was different. 87 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 3: This message said that if Catherine was not brought to competence, 88 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 3: then the charges against her would be dropped. In Maryland, 89 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 3: if someone charged with murder is unable to stand trial 90 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 3: because they are deemed incompetent, the state only has five 91 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 3: years to try and get them healthy enough to go 92 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 3: before a judge. 93 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 6: And face the charges. 94 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 3: And if that doesn't happen, if they go five years 95 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 3: without being declared competent, then those murder charges are dismissed, 96 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 3: they all but disappear. Catherine could be released from Perkins, 97 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 3: Troy might never find out what happened to his kids, 98 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 3: And when I got that Facebook message, the clock was 99 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 3: running out. This is the story of two kids whose 100 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 3: definitive fates are unknown, other who has been found not 101 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 3: competent to stand trial. 102 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 6: For their murders. But it's also the story. 103 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 3: Of unintended consequences, about a legal system that was set 104 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 3: up to protect people but actually raises questions about public 105 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 3: safety and how we balance the rights of the mentally 106 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 3: ill with our ideas about justice and accountability. This is Unrestorable, 107 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 3: a podcast from Anonymous content and iHeartRadio. 108 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 4: I spent some time working bars, nightclubs, cleaning them up, 109 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 4: things like that, and that'd be in between, you know, 110 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 4: times when I was in college, or during different parts 111 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 4: of my career, you know, day jobs or whatever. 112 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 5: Sometimes that was my career. 113 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 3: Troy and I talked for months over zoom, and I 114 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 3: soon got a sense of his warmth, his sly sense 115 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 3: of humor, his determination and tenacity. He's a classic tough 116 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 3: on the outside, teddy bear on the inside kind of guy. 117 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 3: But the camera concealed one thing. The true depth of 118 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 3: troy sorrow, the impossible sense of grief he wakes up 119 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 3: with every morning and carries with him until he falls 120 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 3: asleep every night. That I saw clearly the moment we 121 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 3: met in person, the second I looked in his eyes. 122 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 3: Troy and I finally did get to meet in person 123 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 3: in December twenty twenty two. 124 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 6: Nice to meet you in person today. 125 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 3: Troy sells insurance, but at more than six feet tall, 126 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 3: he certainly looks like the former high school football player 127 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 3: and bouncer that he used to be. We start by 128 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 3: talking about how he and Catherine first met. 129 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 4: She was wasting going to junior college, and let me see, 130 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 4: I mean, we didn't probably talk the first three or 131 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 4: four months that I was there. 132 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 3: In pictures, Catherine is pretty and wholesome looking. She has 133 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 3: shoulder length, medium brown hair, a sun kiss complexion, and 134 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 3: a shy smile. It looks like someone it would be 135 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 3: easy to have a crush on. When she and Troy met, 136 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 3: she was twenty two, he was thirty six. 137 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 4: We wound up talking more, and then we wound up 138 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 4: basically connecting. She got pregnant, and at that point it's like, 139 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 4: well we should probably, you know, see if this will 140 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 4: work or whatever. 141 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 6: What was she like back then? 142 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 5: She was a pretty fun person. 143 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 4: She appeared to kind of have you know, some animosity 144 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 4: with her family at times, things like that. But it 145 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 4: was like, you know, it's kind of normal stuff when 146 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 4: you're talking to and when you're here, you know, I mean, 147 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 4: just overall fairly normal. 148 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 3: This pregnancy was not Sarah or Jacob. This child was 149 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 3: their first kid. Sarah was their second, and Jacob was 150 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 3: her third. This child, the eldest, is still alive, and 151 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 3: we won't be naming him. Everyone agrees his privacy is 152 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 3: more important. Did you feel like, because she got pregnant 153 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 3: so soon after you started dating obviously, were you like, oh, 154 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 3: this is a person I have a genuine connection with, 155 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:04,599 Speaker 3: or were you like, well, we've got to make the 156 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 3: best of this situation. 157 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 5: I felt like that I liked her. 158 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 4: I enjoyed being around her, So there was, you know, 159 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 4: maybe some kind of connection, but a lot of it 160 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 4: was we should probably. 161 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 5: See if this should work. I mean, she's pregnant with 162 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 5: my child. 163 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 3: The first baby was hard in the way that all 164 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 3: babies are hard, but there was so much excitement and 165 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 3: a lot of support. 166 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 6: Catherine was the. 167 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 3: First of her four siblings to have a kid, so 168 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 3: everyone wanted to play with the new baby, to take 169 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 3: pictures of him, to make him laugh. Over the next 170 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 3: few years, the family continued to grow. Fewer than six 171 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 3: years into the relationship, Catherine and Troy had three children 172 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 3: under the age of five. The family was living in 173 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 3: a small apartment. Money was tight, It was a lot, 174 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 3: and at times Troy did feel that Catherine was a 175 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 3: little wobbly. 176 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 4: There were some things here or there where I was 177 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 4: kind of like, okay, that's you know, off or something, 178 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 4: but nothing major. 179 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 5: We had some fun together. 180 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 4: We you know, we went to the beach or whatever, 181 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 4: did things like that, took the kids to see the 182 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 4: dolphins down off was at Yorktown or whatever, you know, 183 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 4: stuff like that. So I mean like we had like 184 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 4: some decent times. We did some cool things. But it 185 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 4: was just with each child things seemed to progress differently. 186 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,079 Speaker 3: When Troy says that things progressed differently, what he means 187 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 3: is that Catherine was different. 188 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 6: She was acting weird. 189 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 3: But Troy told me he put it out of his mind. 190 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 3: He figured that it was a lot to be pregnant 191 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 3: three times in five years. 192 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 4: I'm obviously not a doctor. I can't say what happened 193 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 4: or what didn't. I know that she had told me 194 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 4: that she was on medication for ADHD and things like 195 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 4: that when we met and when she got pregnant. Initially, 196 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 4: I know she had quit smoking and drinking, you know, 197 00:10:57,800 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 4: right away, so she it could be that she was 198 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 4: on medication at that point and quit taking that too 199 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 4: right away without saying anything. I don't know, but there 200 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 4: was definitely kind of a change there. I think, very 201 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 4: black and white, you know. I thought it was like 202 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 4: hormones from the pregnancy. So I went and I looked 203 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 4: that up. I like googled stuff with that, and I'm like, oh, 204 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 4: it says it can last to a year after pregnancy. 205 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 4: So we get towards the end of that year part 206 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 4: and then she's pregnant with Sarah. So I just thought 207 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 4: it was a continuation, same time frame kind of between 208 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 4: Sarah and Jacob. 209 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 3: But as time went on, Catherine became more and more erratic, 210 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 3: doing things that Troy couldn't explain away. Sometimes she would 211 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 3: just disappear when she was supposed to be taking care 212 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 3: of the kids, leaving them alone. Other Times she seemed confused. 213 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 4: So I'm on my way home from work and I 214 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 4: get a call from her that she's in DC and 215 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 4: running out of gas and she needs me to come 216 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 4: into DC to get gas in my car. So I 217 00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 4: go in and she appears to be from an area 218 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 4: that's not, you know, a great neighborhood necessarily, and I'm 219 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 4: going with you even doing now here, it's ridiculous, and 220 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 4: you don't even have a license. So she said that 221 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 4: she was trying to do something Christmas shopping west or 222 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 4: something like that. You know, well, let's get gas. You're 223 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 4: gonna follow me home. I pull out, we hit a 224 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 4: red light, I make a left, she goes right, it 225 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 4: goes off the other way. She's supposed to be following 226 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 4: me home because she doesn't even her way out of there, 227 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 4: So like, oh, I go, what are you doing? 228 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 5: She goes, oh, well, you know I'm going to different. 229 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 6: With It happened again just a couple nights later. 230 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 4: She's calling me saying that she has no gas or 231 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 4: she needs gas, and she's asking me. 232 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 5: I said, okay, well I'll come meet you. 233 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 4: She's like, no, can you just drop twenty in cash 234 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 4: off with the cashier and I'll get. 235 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 5: It from him. I'm going what. 236 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 4: So she's trying to get me to drop cash off 237 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 4: at different gas stations with the person working to register. 238 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 3: Catherine also became increasingly paranoid. She kept insisting she was 239 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 3: being followed. At one she asked Troy to buy a 240 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 3: staple gun and shoot her with it. Troy couldn't ignore 241 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 3: things anymore. 242 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 4: And like clin, there's been a progression here, Like this 243 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 4: isn't the same as it was when she was pregnant 244 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 4: with my first child. This has gotten worse. Our relationship 245 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 4: was non existent pretty much. You get towards the end 246 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 4: of twenty twelve, we're sleeping in different places. 247 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 3: It might have taken a few years for Troy to 248 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 3: figure out that Catherine had serious mental health issues, but 249 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 3: Catherine's mother, Lindsay Hoggle, says her daughter's problems started a 250 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 3: long time ago. 251 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 7: She struggled in middle school and high school just with 252 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 7: a variety of different anxieties and mental health issues. 253 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 3: Signs of real serious issues started to show up when 254 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 3: Catherine was a young teenager. 255 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 7: I had known that she was struggling, and Time magazine 256 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 7: had a front page article on bipolar and teens, and 257 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 7: so once I went through that, I just went I've 258 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 7: got to do something. I mean, these symptoms are this, 259 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 7: you know the same. And so that's when I decided that, 260 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 7: you know, I was going to take her to a psychiatrist. 261 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 3: Lindsay says that Catherine's issues affected the whole family, that 262 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 3: Catherine would often not leave her room, that her oldest 263 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 3: daughter was in constant conflict with her siblings and completely 264 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 3: disengaged from school. It seemed like Catherine was falling apart. 265 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 7: It finally became a situation where, you know, she broke 266 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 7: the rules. Her father and I were divorced at that time, 267 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 7: and I just said, well, you know, you've broken the rules. 268 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 5: You need to. 269 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 8: Find somewhere else to live, you know, And so she 270 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 8: went to live with her dad. Can you tell me 271 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 8: the story of how you learned that she was pregnant 272 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 8: with your first Have you already heard that? I haven't 273 00:14:58,600 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 8: heard it. 274 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 7: Okay, So Catherine had been dating Troy, and you know, 275 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 7: and she would come over for dinner or something after. 276 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 7: You know, she really looks like she's pregnant. 277 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 3: But Lindsay and her daughter's relationship was already strained, so 278 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 3: Lindsay just let it go. 279 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 6: She didn't ask. 280 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 3: She was hoping she was wrong that her troubled daughter 281 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 3: wasn't pregnant, and so. 282 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 7: I got this phone call and so she goes, hi, Mom. 283 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 6: I'm like hi. 284 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 7: She goes, well, I have some news. I'm like okay. 285 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 7: She goes, You're a grandmother. 286 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 3: Catherine wasn't calling to say, oh, hey, congratulations, you're going 287 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 3: to be a grandmother in several months. Catherine was saying, surprise, 288 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 3: I have a baby. At first, Lindsay wasn't even sure 289 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 3: that she was serious, but it wasn't a joke. She 290 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 3: had to break the news to Catherine's dad, Randy. 291 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 7: I could tell he was driving, so I said, pull 292 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 7: over in the side of the road and call me back. 293 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 7: And so he did, and so I told him, I said, 294 00:15:58,240 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 7: you know, I knew that this would be a little 295 00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 7: bit of a shock, so I didn't want you to 296 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 7: be driving a car while I was telling you. 297 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 3: So the whole family is reeling. Lindsay was in shock. 298 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 3: What are you supposed to do with a reveal like this? 299 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 3: But this was her first grandchild, a baby boy. 300 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 7: And so I got in the car, you know, with 301 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 7: my middle daughter, and gave her money to go buy 302 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 7: a baby blanket at a nearby store you know where 303 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 7: you get these ideas, and then we drove to Harrisonburg. Luckily, 304 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 7: for Catherine, she was close to a hospital, and so 305 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 7: when I went in, one of the nurses took me 306 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 7: aside and said, you know, you're really lucky to have 307 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 7: both of them, the baby and Catherine, because she had 308 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 7: an emergency c section. She said, it's not uncommon for 309 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 7: us to lose one or the other or both during 310 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 7: this type of an event, and so, you know, it 311 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 7: was even more stunned and you know, thrilled. But for 312 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 7: whatever reason that was, that was how she chose to 313 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 7: tell me. 314 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 3: Catherine was twenty two. She and Troy hadn't been dating 315 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 3: for long, and neither of them really had a career. 316 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 6: Lindsay knew it would be a rough start. 317 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 7: They had just gotten to Harrisonburg, didn't have a place 318 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,239 Speaker 7: to live, they were in temporary housing, and so I 319 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 7: know helped find them somewhere to live and take care. 320 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 8: I can't remember how many days they kept her. 321 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 7: And he was less than five pounds when they left 322 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 7: the hospital, which I was very worried about him, and 323 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 7: I have eight pound babies, so five pound was just, 324 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 7: you know, is small, and so they had a lot 325 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 7: to get done before they were ready to have a 326 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 7: baby and take care of a baby. 327 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 3: That was the beginning of Catherine being a mom. It 328 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 3: was chaotic, surprising, disorganized. But people have told me that 329 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 3: Catherine was a good mom, that she loved her kids. 330 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 3: It's not unexpected in a way. It just makes what 331 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 3: would happen later so much more of a shock from. 332 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 6: The very beginning. 333 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 7: Yeah, she loved it. I think it helped because my 334 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 7: youngest daughter is I guess about seven years difference between, 335 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 7: and so Catherine had kind of grown up, you know, 336 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 7: taking care of my youngest daughter. 337 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 3: Lindsay says, Catherine took to motherhood right away, like it 338 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 3: was the only thing she ever wanted to do. 339 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 6: I remember this. 340 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 7: I had said, you know, let me take him for 341 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 7: a night or two on the weekend and give you 342 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 7: guys a break. And so on the way out, she 343 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 7: has index cards that she's stuffing in the back pockets 344 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 7: on my jeans as I'm walking out, and of course 345 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 7: I've been going, okay, I've raised children before, I've done 346 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 7: this before, I should know everything. And she's laughing and 347 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 7: she's like, but no, these are his like little you know, 348 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 7: these are the things that you got to take care 349 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 7: of them. 350 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 6: I'm like, okay, so. 351 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 7: I'm sure I'm going to get drilled when I get home. 352 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 7: You're going to call and ask me if I've read 353 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 7: a margin. She goes, yes, So yeah, she was. She 354 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 7: loved it, you know, she loved it. 355 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 3: How is she doing over those years? How is she 356 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 3: managing those stresses? How is she managing being a mother? 357 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 3: Just you know, what is there of the narrative as 358 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 3: they build their family? How does she weather those years? 359 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 7: Oh? Gosh, sometimes better than others. Part of it, very much, 360 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 7: was just not the right fit of everything that they 361 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 7: were doing. I mean, Troy worked nights, which left her 362 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 7: with the children a lot, and so, you know, her 363 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 7: father and I tried to help a lot and picking 364 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 7: up you know, the slack and everything. 365 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 3: But as Catherine became more erratic, it became clear that 366 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 3: something had to be done. It all came to a 367 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 3: head just before Christmas in twenty thirteen. 368 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 4: I grabbed Randy, her father, and Lindsay her mom, and 369 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 4: I had them meet me at Lindsay's house and we 370 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 4: had to talk in her driveway. I said, you know, 371 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 4: we were coming up on Christmas. I said, look, so 372 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 4: let's get through Christmas with the kids if we can. 373 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 4: But at that point, I need you guys to be 374 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 4: with me on this. We need to sit down and 375 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 4: talk to her and say, hey, look, either you're going 376 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 4: to get help or we're going to get you help. 377 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 3: The family desperately needed to get on the same page 378 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,479 Speaker 3: for Catherine, for the kids, for everyone, but the cracks 379 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 3: were showing. 380 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 4: I remember her father, and Randy is easily her biggest enabler. 381 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 5: He was like, well, I don't know about this. 382 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 4: And I remember Lindsay going off on him and custom 383 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 4: out in the driveway, pokeingon as chest talking about how 384 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 4: you know, he's always enabled in this and this and 385 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 4: this is something that he needs to get on board with. 386 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 3: Despite her father's unease, the family decided that Catherine shouldn't 387 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 3: ever be left alone with the kids. She wasn't reliable 388 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 3: and she didn't seem to be making rational decisions. Lindsay's house, 389 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 3: a big suburban home on a nice piece of property 390 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 3: not far from Troy and Catherine's apartment, became central dispatch. 391 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 3: Catherine and the kids would come there while Troy was 392 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 3: at work. Family members rotated in and out, taking care 393 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 3: of the three young kids and making sure. Another adult 394 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 3: was always with Catherine. 395 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 4: I'm going, okay, she's their mom. I want her to 396 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 4: be in their life. We just have to figure out 397 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 4: a safe, healthy way to do it at this point 398 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 4: where and it wasn't a safe, healthy way in terms 399 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 4: of I thought she would be killing my kids or 400 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 4: physically hurrying them. It was just the decision making process, 401 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 4: wasn't there. 402 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 3: Despite all the attempts to help Catherine at home, eventually 403 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 3: the family realized she needed more help. Catherine was committed involuntarily. 404 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 3: She was placed in handcuffs and taken away, spending Christmas 405 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 3: twenty thirteen in the psych ward the suburban Baltimore Hospital 406 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 3: after being diagnosed with schizo effective disorder. Catherine and Troy's 407 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 3: oldest son was four, Sarah was two. 408 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 6: And Jacob was just one. A baby. 409 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 3: A young family that should have been brimming with hope, 410 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 3: but this one was spiraling. After a short period, Catherine 411 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 3: was able to check herself out of the hospital, but 412 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 3: from then on, over the next year, she was in 413 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 3: and out of treatment. Did she reject the diagnoses or 414 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 3: was she at peace or as much as one can 415 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 3: be with the fact that she has mental illness. It 416 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 3: needs to be managed. 417 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 7: I think the main thing that her feelings throughout that 418 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 7: time period were very much, my children could be taken 419 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 7: from me if I admit to having serious mental illness. 420 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 6: Were you afraid that Catherine would hurt herself? 421 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 1: No? 422 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 6: Were you ever afraid she would hurt the kids? 423 00:22:58,200 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 2: No. 424 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 3: The family implemented new rules. Katherine couldn't be left alone 425 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 3: with the kids, she couldn't drive, and she had to 426 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 3: receive psychiatric treatment. 427 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 6: Lindsay says that all. 428 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 3: Of this just made Catherine increasingly fixated on the idea 429 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 3: that her kids were going to be taken away from her. 430 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,439 Speaker 7: So I had an office in my home and she 431 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 7: would come and say, you know, they're trying to take 432 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 7: the children from me, And so I just assumed that 433 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 7: it was that part of paranoia that had arisen. Things 434 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 7: started happening that I wasn't sure was true or not. 435 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 3: Troy says that during this time, as Katherine moved in 436 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 3: and out of the hospital, staff would release her, assuring 437 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 3: him that while his wife was definitely troubled, she was 438 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 3: not dangerous. But Troy was starting to worry that the 439 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 3: doctors were wrong. 440 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 4: In that timeframe, she says things and does things that 441 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 4: show me she's definitely dangerous. 442 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 3: The family felt like Catherine wasn't getting better, that she 443 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 3: she wasn't getting the help she needed. One time, after 444 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 3: Catherine was released from a psychiatric facility, she approached a 445 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 3: random stranger on the street and ended up spending the 446 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 3: night at her house. 447 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 7: It gets to the point where you realize that someone's 448 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 7: not making good judgment and that they're emotional and your 449 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 7: expectations of how they should act are not the way 450 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 7: they're acting. I mean, just upset over things, irrational thinking. 451 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 3: The family was coming apart and they couldn't keep limping along. 452 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 3: Troy wanted Catherine committed for longer stretches of time. 453 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 5: So I took her up there one day and I said, 454 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 5: you guys need to keep her. I just walked in 455 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 5: and said you need to keep her. Here's why. And 456 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:45,360 Speaker 5: now I walked out and they kept her. 457 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 6: But it wouldn't last. 458 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 3: Catherine would once again go through the revolving doors of 459 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 3: the hospital and come back home, and while everyone around 460 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 3: her kept trying to pull it all together, tragedy felt imminent. 461 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 3: Tragedy struck on Sunday, September seventh, twenty fourteen. That night, 462 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 3: as Troy got ready to go to work. He said 463 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 3: goodbye to his kids, as he did every. 464 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 5: Night, so hugged and kissed the kids. 465 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 4: Sodim I loved them, said day guy got to work, 466 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 4: but I'll be back later this evening, you know, And 467 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 4: I left. 468 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 3: Troy never saw his two youngest kids again. Troy and 469 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 3: his current wife, Stephanie, the one who sent me that 470 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 3: letter and started this entire thing for me, have spent 471 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 3: the last nine years tirelessly looking for the children, advocating 472 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 3: for them, and hoping that Catherine would one day be 473 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 3: brought to justice. After the kids went missing, Catherine took 474 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 3: off that After five days on the run, she was 475 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 3: caught and arrested. She never told anyone where Sarah and 476 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 3: Jacob were, and she still hasn't. At first, Catherine was 477 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 3: charged with parental abduction and obstruction. Months after her arrest, 478 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 3: Catherine was found not competent to stand trial. Only years later, 479 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 3: after the children were presumed dead, would she be charged 480 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 3: with their murders. And then, remember, there is this statute 481 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 3: in the state of Maryland that says that defendants charged 482 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 3: with felonies or violent crimes who have been found not 483 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 3: competent have to be tried within five years or the 484 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 3: charges against them have to be dismissed. And that is 485 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 3: Troy and Stephanie's biggest fear and their motivation. It's what 486 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 3: got them to reach out to me in the first place, 487 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 3: because when I got her letter, there were less than 488 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 3: nine months left on that ticking clock. If Catherine couldn't 489 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 3: be restored to competency, the charges against her would be dismissed, 490 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 3: and the chances of ever finding out what happened to 491 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 3: Sarah and Jacob that September night in twenty fourteen would grow. 492 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 6: Dimmer and dimmer. 493 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 3: In addition to a really complicated personal story about a 494 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,679 Speaker 3: family tragedy, there are so many complex issues here to 495 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 3: tease out, regarding the law and mental health, and how 496 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 3: these systems intersect, about our perceptions of mental illness, about 497 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 3: our expectations from others, about how we balance public safety 498 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 3: versus the rights of the accused, and what justice and 499 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 3: accountability mean for the most heinous of crimes. And you're 500 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 3: going to hear from experts about these bigger questions as 501 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 3: we dig into the details of this very complicated story. 502 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 7: How's it going, well, We just went pretty well. 503 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 9: I had an all day interview yesterday, right, I mean 504 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 9: I got off at we like, actually I was up 505 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 9: since one am. 506 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,479 Speaker 3: One of those experts who will help us throughout this 507 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 3: podcast is my friend and colleague, Beth Carris. 508 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 6: And here's the thing about Beth. She's a bit of 509 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 6: a legend. 510 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 3: Beth was a New York City prosecutor for years, and 511 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,959 Speaker 3: then she moved on to Core TV. She's now been 512 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 3: an investigative journal list for decades and she's always popping 513 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 3: up on TV to talk about big cases. One time 514 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 3: I watched her get recognized by fans in the lobby 515 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 3: of a courtyard Marriant, and I knew she was the 516 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 3: perfect person to sort through all of the complex issues 517 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 3: in this case. If the charges are dismissed, could Catherine 518 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 3: be released. It's a thought that terrifies Troy and Stephanie 519 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 3: because they the police and prosecutors all believe that Catherine 520 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 3: murdered Sarah and Jacob and that there's a lot more 521 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 3: she's been hiding over the last nine years. Coming up 522 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 3: on Unrestorable. 523 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 4: I'm thinking, now I'm going to the police station to 524 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 4: basically have them, you know, do whatever they need to 525 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 4: do to find out where my kids are. So I 526 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 4: can get my kids, and I'm thinking that I need 527 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 4: to get there before I lose control over my emotions. 528 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 5: At this point. It's just too much. At this point, 529 00:28:58,480 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 5: I'm like this, it's crazy. 530 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 2: We're on the phone one night and he just kind 531 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: of stopped me and he told me that his two 532 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 2: kids were missing, and honestly, I don't think that I 533 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 2: believed him. 534 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 10: There have been amendments to our mental health statutes throughout 535 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 10: the years, and two thousand and six there were major 536 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 10: amendments because they were concerned that people were just going 537 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,959 Speaker 10: to be locked away, people would forget about them, you know, 538 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:25,719 Speaker 10: no oversight somebody. 539 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 9: It was really kind of cynical looking at this whole 540 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 9: eight year Saga would say that Katherine Hoggle has been 541 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 9: a master manipulator this entire time, right until now. She's 542 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 9: avoiding this final hearing and she may prevail in getting 543 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 9: her criminal charges dismissed and being civilly committed. 544 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 3: Unrestorable is executive produced and hosted by Me, Sarah Trelevin, 545 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 3: and Beth Carris. Our story editor is Kathleen Goldhar. Mixing 546 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 3: and sound designed by Reza Daya for anonymous content. Jessica 547 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 3: Grimshaw is our executive producer. Jennifer Sears is our executive 548 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 3: in charge of production, and Nick Yanas is our legal 549 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 3: council for iHeart, executive producer Christina Everett and supervising producer 550 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 3: Abu Zafar