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Speaker 1: Native lampod is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership with

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Speaker 1: Reason Choice Media. Nobody knows the troubles are seen? What

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Speaker 1: role do white males play? What role do white male

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Speaker 1: evangelicals play? One of the blessings we have about this

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Speaker 1: show is we get to talk about it, all right,

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Speaker 1: and so we have Reverend Shank here joining us on

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Speaker 1: the show. We're going to bring them in. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of like a fifth will. This is the way I

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Speaker 1: wanted to introduce you, Reverend. We found a video of

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Speaker 1: you actually testifying, and I wanted to play that clip

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Speaker 1: right here. It's testifying to Congress about your work influencing

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court of these United States of America. And

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Speaker 1: then I got a question about Clarence Thomas on the

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Speaker 1: other side. I'm just joking, go ahead, and wrote a clip.

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Speaker 2: I am here to present facts as I know of

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Speaker 2: them about Operation Higher Court, a Christian mission that I

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Speaker 2: directed as part of Faith into Action for twenty years

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Speaker 2: to bolster conservative Supreme Court justices in the views they

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Speaker 2: already held. Operation Higher Court involved my recruitment of wealthy

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Speaker 2: donors as stealth missionaries who befriended justices that shared our

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Speaker 2: conservative social and religious sensibilities. In this way, I aimed

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Speaker 2: to show these justices that Americans supported them and thanked

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Speaker 2: God for their presence on the Court and the opinions

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Speaker 2: they rendered. Our overarching goals were to gain insights into

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Speaker 2: the conservative justices thinking and to shore up their resolve

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Speaker 2: to render solid, unapologetic opinions, particularly against abortion. I called

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Speaker 2: this our ministry of emboldenment. I believe we pushed the

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Speaker 2: boundaries of Christian ethics and compromised the High Court's promise

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Speaker 2: to administer equal justice. But I'm also conscious we were

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Speaker 2: never admonished for the type of work our missionaries did,

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Speaker 2: quite to the contrary. In one instance, Justice Thomas commended me,

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Speaker 2: saying something like, keep up what you're doing. It's making

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Speaker 2: a difference.

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Speaker 1: So the right Reverend Robert Shank, did I pronounce your

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Speaker 1: last name correctly?

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Speaker 3: Yes? But sometimes I am the wrong reverence. And that's

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Speaker 3: what that.

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Speaker 1: Was all about, I understand. So I just wanted to

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Speaker 1: start the conversation with I think the two most important

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Speaker 1: words in the English language, other words, thank you, and

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Speaker 1: then I nearly said enough, So thank you for your

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Speaker 1: time and thank you for the work that you are

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Speaker 1: now doing. Ain't the work you used to do, but

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Speaker 1: thank you for the work that you're now doing. What

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Speaker 1: role do white male evangelicals play in changing culture, changing society?

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Speaker 1: We talked about ice, we talked about jelly roll earlier,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes you see a muted voice. I think it

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Speaker 1: all ties in together. What can we expect, what should

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Speaker 1: we expect? And what are we not seeing?

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Speaker 3: Well, what we're not saying is some of the change

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Speaker 3: that's happening right now, and a lot of it because

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Speaker 3: of Minneapolis. I just read a report from Christianity Today,

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Speaker 3: which has historically been the journal of record for American

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Speaker 3: white evangelicals, and there's a lot of a lot of

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Speaker 3: disruption in the in the positions of evangelicals in Minnesota

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Speaker 3: right now because of what they're seeing playing out in

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Speaker 3: the streets. H You know, I hate to say it,

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Speaker 3: but you asked about, you know, white evangelicals. I think

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Speaker 3: white males in general get a little more attention from

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Speaker 3: white evangelical leader's keen sense of the obvious. They are

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Speaker 3: been happening for a long time. But the reason I

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Speaker 3: mention it is because, of course, the killing of Alex

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Speaker 3: pretty as compared to even the killing of Renee good

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Speaker 3: Renee Good was white, she would normally command attention, but

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Speaker 3: discounted by the fact that she's gay, that she was gay.

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Speaker 3: So but here we go, white male of a certain

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Speaker 3: age and a gun owner gets the attention that others

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Speaker 3: don't get. So I think that's part of the reason,

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Speaker 3: but not the whole reason. I think a fair number

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Speaker 3: of white evangelical leaders are now feeling uncomfortable with the violence,

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Speaker 3: the threats, with the behavior after the shootings, with the

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Speaker 3: abduction of children and their imprisonment in cages. It's starting

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Speaker 3: to trouble the conscience. Not enough to tip the scales,

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Speaker 3: not anywhere near, but it's changing. And I'm sorry for

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Speaker 3: such a long answer to your short question, but I'll

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Speaker 3: just add this. I do think it's critically important now

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Speaker 3: that white male evangelical leaders start airing their conscience and

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Speaker 3: their descent. And I know there are many of them,

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Speaker 3: but they are silenced by fear. But they have to

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Speaker 3: find their courage. And the reason they do is be

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Speaker 3: because this administration will pay attention to that in a

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Speaker 3: way they won't pay attention to anyone else. They'll write

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Speaker 3: everybody else off. They're black, they're socialists, they're leftists, they're communists,

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Speaker 3: their nutcases. But suddenly when when white males like me

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Speaker 3: start speaking, I know from my contacts in the administration,

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Speaker 3: I maintain friends who are working for Trump right now

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Speaker 3: in the White House, and they will say, I got

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Speaker 3: a little attention here that bothered some people. Not for

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Speaker 3: the right reasons, but it bothered them.

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Speaker 4: So if I could ask you, you know, there's a

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Speaker 4: conversion moment biblically speaking, where Saul is converted to Paul.

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Speaker 4: You're talking about finding your courage. I want to know

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Speaker 4: what helped you to find your courage. And in this

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Speaker 4: moment where you're talking about having friends in the White House,

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Speaker 4: knowing now which you understand to be their agenda, how

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Speaker 4: they choose to move forward, how are you maintaining those friendships,

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Speaker 4: and how do you intend to help them to convert

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Speaker 4: from Saul to Paul.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, thanks for framing it that way. I talk

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Speaker 3: about three conversions in my own life. My initial conversion

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Speaker 3: to the Christ I saw in the Sermon on the

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Speaker 3: Mount who blessed the poor, who blessed the forgotten, the

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Speaker 3: margin lies, the lonely, the grieving. Then in the eighties

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Speaker 3: I was converted to what I now call Ronald Reagan

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Speaker 3: Republican religion, which is distinctly different from Christianity, and I

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Speaker 3: spent thirty five years in that religious stream, doing the

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Speaker 3: kind of work I'm now repenting from. Then I had

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Speaker 3: a third conversion reading the work of church leaders in

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Speaker 3: nineteen thirties Germany during the rise of Adolf Hitler and

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Speaker 3: his racialized dictatorship, and that was the first crack.

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Speaker 1: There were a.

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Speaker 3: Few little, tiny threads before that, but it was really

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Speaker 3: confronting that history and seeing that what I was engaged

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Speaker 3: in for thirty years was identical to what the Ivan

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Speaker 3: gaelicche Kirche, the Evangelical Church of Germany was doing in

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Speaker 3: that era. In fact, it would be evangelical leaders who

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Speaker 3: declared Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party a gifted miracle

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Speaker 3: from God. Well, I was seeing the same, and so

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Speaker 3: that was part of it. The other substantial part of

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Speaker 3: my third conversion out of that right wing cult was

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Speaker 3: my wife, who made a late in life professional change

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Speaker 3: from being an occupational therapist to a psychotherapist. And when

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Speaker 3: you're married to a psychotherapist, you can't escape the therapy

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Speaker 3: no matter how hard you try, and that was a

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Speaker 3: huge huge help for me, and I would enter my

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Speaker 3: own period of therapy, which helped me face myself in

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Speaker 3: a way I ever had and the realities of what

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Speaker 3: was going on around me. So that was a lot

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Speaker 3: of it. There was more. It was a long and

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Speaker 3: complex formula equation that got me to the other side.

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Speaker 3: But I'm so glad it did.

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Speaker 5: When you think about the dates. I was just trying

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Speaker 5: to help me understand some of the time periods of

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Speaker 5: your third conversion, just so I understand where to where

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Speaker 5: to sort of place my question.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's been a kind of ten year progression for me.

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Speaker 3: Those versed cracks appeared in oh nine, ten, twenty ten.

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Speaker 3: It was particularly jarring when when I attended the eightieth

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Speaker 3: birthday party for the now late televangelist Pat Robertson, who's

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Speaker 3: built a right winging religious empire that continues to this moment,

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Speaker 3: and his guest of honor at this big banish where

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Speaker 3: virtually every e white evangelical luminary in this country was

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Speaker 3: in the ballroom celebrate with Pat, and his guest of

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Speaker 3: honor in twenty eleven was none other than Donald Trump,

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Speaker 3: and I was shocked by that. I didn't think of

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Speaker 3: Trump as part of our our culture. In fact, in Bible,

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Speaker 3: yes exactly. And when I was in Bible College what

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Speaker 3: we call our seminaries to prepare for ministry, way back

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Speaker 3: in the early eighties, I was told that Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: was the classic example of everything it meant not to

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Speaker 3: live that say, Christian, and that he makes a great

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Speaker 3: sermon illustration for that. And I had used him as

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Speaker 3: that over the years. But there he was at Pat's

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Speaker 3: birthday party, and I asked one of my colleagues, a

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Speaker 3: name well known in the white evangelical world, why is

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Speaker 3: he here? And the answer was because he and Pattern

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Speaker 3: now part of the same billionaire's club. Pat had just

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Speaker 3: sold the Family Channel, his family became the heirs in

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Speaker 3: the process, and now they were billionaire pals. And that

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Speaker 3: was distressing to me. And it would be at the

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Speaker 3: twenty sixteen Republican National Convention that I finally made the

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Speaker 3: break left the movement. Theoretically, it took me two more

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Speaker 3: years to extract myself legally and financially.

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Speaker 4: But wey, I'm sorry. Can you say more about the

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Speaker 4: financial piece? You said to extract yourself financially to what

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Speaker 4: does that mean?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, first I was running an organization I had

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Speaker 3: spent thirty five years building, which had fifty thousand donors

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Speaker 3: spread across the United States, hundreds of churches. We were

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Speaker 3: raising millions and millions of dollars, and I had legal obligations.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I've lose nothing by being candid and

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Speaker 3: completely honest these days, and that's what I was trying

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Speaker 3: to do in Minneapolis. But I wasn't. I wasn't fully

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Speaker 3: courageous all at once, and and I'm not even at

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Speaker 3: this moment. I was afraid of donor lawsuits. I was

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Speaker 3: afraid of contractors suing me. So I carefully deconstructed that operation.

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Speaker 3: It took two years to do it, and to safely

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Speaker 3: extract myself. Once I did, I left all of that behind.

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Speaker 3: Every bit of that went for a little while I

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Speaker 3: was driving Uber to pay my bills, all the cost

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Speaker 3: of it.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 5: You know, I'm appreciative of your transparency, even with us

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Speaker 5: now and our audience. And we didn't get to say

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Speaker 5: welcome home at the start of this interview, but that's

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Speaker 5: something we say to our guests when when they make

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Speaker 5: themselves available to this community. I am I work for

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Speaker 5: a long time on the other side of some of

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Speaker 5: your court work at People for the American Way, which

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Speaker 5: is also known as the House of Bork because we

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Speaker 5: led the effort to defeat Robert Bork's nomination to the

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Speaker 5: to the High Court. So I understand that that space

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Speaker 5: very well, I am. I don't understand as well the

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Speaker 5: space of white evangelism, mostly because if we subscribe to

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Speaker 5: the same Jesus, the same God, the same scripture, and

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Speaker 5: I know scripture can be used creatively by whoever wills it,

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Speaker 5: but we miss each other at that intersection of what

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Speaker 5: scripture seems to say to white evangelicals and then what

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Speaker 5: it says and in the black tradition of the Christian faith.

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Speaker 5: And it absolutely shows up differently in our politics, certainly

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Speaker 5: in American and society and culture. I just wonder, on

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Speaker 5: the other side of this of of your evolution, where

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Speaker 5: you now where and how you now carry the message

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Speaker 5: to other white evangelicals around how they see the lights

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Speaker 5: come to evolution, come to transition. Because by and large,

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Speaker 5: we're kind of we're kind of on the right track

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Speaker 5: on our side, and it's still fighting to stay on

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Speaker 5: the what we believe to be the right track. Yet

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Speaker 5: a lot of our brothers and sisters on in the

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Speaker 5: Christian evangelical side still tolerate outrageous forms of hate and

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Speaker 5: terror uh and cruelty by the administration and what their

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Speaker 5: politics often produces. How do you how do you sort

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Speaker 5: of theorize the best way to move other white male

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Speaker 5: evangelicals closer to the truth of the faith and away

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Speaker 5: I think from some of the cruelty in devastating, destructive

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Speaker 5: politics of the far right.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's not easy, although I did retain thousands of

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Speaker 3: just those sorts of folks on my social media platforms

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Speaker 3: which I use as my pulpit these days, and I

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Speaker 3: remind them of their conversions, what drew them to Christ.

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Speaker 3: And you know, there's a passage in the New Testament

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Speaker 3: Book of Revelation where the resurrec that Christ is speaking

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Speaker 3: to the church from the heavenlyes if you read it

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Speaker 3: that way, and he says to a particular church in

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Speaker 3: a particular place, you're doing everything right, but I have

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Speaker 3: this one thing against you. You have left your first love.

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Speaker 3: So I try to remind evangelicals of their first love, Jesus,

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Speaker 3: who I regularly reintroduce as the dark, complexted Middle Eastern

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Speaker 3: man of the levant who had very dark skin and

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Speaker 3: afro textured hair, wool hair exactly, and I put him

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Speaker 3: out there and I just let them sit with him,

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Speaker 3: and then I remind them of what he said. And

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Speaker 3: I do get folks numbers, but regularly who come, usually

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Speaker 3: through a direct message because they're afraid to go on

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Speaker 3: the page, and they'll say, you know you've got me

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Speaker 3: on that, You've got me thinking, and yes, that was

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Speaker 3: the reason I gave my heart to Jesus all those

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Speaker 3: years ago. It's still small numbers. The other task I have,

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Speaker 3: which is the larger one, is to expose this as

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Speaker 3: not just un Christian, but anti Christian. So I try

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Speaker 3: to do that through my writing, through you know, on

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Speaker 3: social media platforms and elsewhere, and then in conversation with leaders.

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Speaker 3: I just invited a unabashed self identified Christian nationalist leader.

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Speaker 3: He heads a small denomination in the United States with

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Speaker 3: progressive leaders up in Boston. In two weeks. He accepted

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Speaker 3: the invitation to a dialogue with them. We'll see what happens.

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Speaker 3: But I want to do more and more of that.

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Speaker 3: That's part of the repair work. There's far more than that,

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Speaker 3: and it's much closer to people who have suffered because

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Speaker 3: of what I did. But that's some of the work

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Speaker 3: that I that I try to do.

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Speaker 5: Nobody knows.

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Speaker 6: Rama Shane, I can I ask you. You know, you

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Speaker 6: talked about some of these folks that you're in relationship

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Speaker 6: with and how they have looking at all that's going on,

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Speaker 6: and particularly Minneapolis, they've changed, their hearts have changed in

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Speaker 6: some ways. Do you think that that means they're going

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Speaker 6: to show up at the polls differently? Are they going

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Speaker 6: to vote different Are they talk about that or do

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Speaker 6: you think because you know, one of the challenges that

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Speaker 6: I have faced in working with white women. You know,

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Speaker 6: I was one of the leaders of the Women's March.

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Speaker 6: I have been on the streets of America organizing, marching

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Speaker 6: with galvanizing thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of women, and

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Speaker 6: oftentimes the numbers, the math doesn't math. As we say that,

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Speaker 6: you know, they will say we're with you, We're with you,

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Speaker 6: We're with you. And then when we look at the

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Speaker 6: numbers after an election, it is very clear that some

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Speaker 6: people either weren't telling the truth or they definitely didn't

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Speaker 6: go and do the work at home of organizing not

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Speaker 6: just us out in the community, but being there to

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Speaker 6: organize their mothers, their aunts, their sisters, their friends, their

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Speaker 6: you know, their family members. So how do you see

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Speaker 6: this translating to as we are approaching the midterm elections.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great point, and it reminds me of

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Speaker 3: the work I have yet to do to organize white

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Speaker 3: evangelicals of conscience as I call them, or dissenters. M hum.

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Speaker 3: I'm hopeful that a fair number of them are troubled

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Speaker 3: enough that they just simply won't vote. They'll they'll just

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Speaker 3: sit it out. Hoping they'll vote for a Democrat is

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Speaker 3: probably too too great of a leap of faith for me.

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Speaker 3: But maybe they'll we'll take them sit at home. Well,

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Speaker 3: they can stay home, and I think that's more likely

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Speaker 3: what they'll do it, and it would be a good choice.

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Speaker 3: And I will be saying that to them. I'll say,

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Speaker 3: if if you just can't, here's one way you can

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Speaker 3: preserve your conscience in this. Sit it out. So that's hosibility.

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Speaker 3: I do know of some already who in the last

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Speaker 3: election voted for a Democrat for the first time in

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Speaker 3: their electoral lives. I voted for Joe Biden, first vote

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Speaker 3: for a Democratic candidate in how many years, was it?

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Speaker 3: Because the last time I voted for a Democrat before

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Speaker 3: Biden was nineteen seventy six, So it was a long time.

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Speaker 3: Is that forty four at Carters for Carter? Yeah, so

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Speaker 3: it was forty four years. And there are others. I'm

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Speaker 3: not unique. I am not unique. There's a lot. I

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Speaker 3: didn't vote for Trump either time. By the way, I

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Speaker 3: voted for other Republican for another Republican in twenty.

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Speaker 4: Sixteen, I if I can ask you, Reverend, there was

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Speaker 4: just an arrest civil arrests made of nine Pea individuals

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Speaker 4: who the Department of Justice is calling defendants on the

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Speaker 4: other side of a protest at a church city's church

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Speaker 4: in fact in Saint Paul, Minnesota, where one of the pastors,

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Speaker 4: David Easterwood, serves as an icefield director. And I'm curious

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Speaker 4: to know if you think there's ever an appropriate time

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Speaker 4: to protest in church one and two, if you think

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Speaker 4: that journalists should be exempt from any type of criminal

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Speaker 4: indictment for covering said protests, Well, I did it.

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Speaker 3: I did it at the Washington National Cathedral back when

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Speaker 3: I was a leader in the national pro life anti

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Speaker 3: abortion movement. I confronted Bill Clinton in the sanctuary during

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Speaker 3: a communion service, and I was applauded for that. I

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Speaker 3: was made a hero in the conservative Christian world for

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Speaker 3: my disruption of a communion service on Christmas Eve. By

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Speaker 3: the way, on Christmas Eve. So I'd like to say

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Speaker 3: I did one better event these folks did on a

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Speaker 3: comment Sunday morning, and I was made a hero for it.

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Speaker 3: I'm reminding people of that. You want to denounce this.

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Speaker 3: You applauded me when I did it, and that was

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Speaker 3: I guess about nineteen ninety six ish something like that.

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Speaker 3: I have to go back and records. But in any case,

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Speaker 3: and ironically, the administration is using a law that we

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Speaker 3: decried and that anti abortion activists and other white evangelical

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Speaker 3: champions of religious liberty regularly denounced, and that is the

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Speaker 3: Face Act, the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act,

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Speaker 3: which we decried. We fought it in court, we raised

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Speaker 3: tens of millions of dollars to oppose it, and now

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Speaker 3: they're using it against Don Lemon, against the others. It's

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Speaker 3: and I'm reminding my folks of that too, and hoping

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Speaker 3: it will give some pause. Say wait a minute, what

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Speaker 3: when we do here and Incidentally, this is a family

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Speaker 3: issue in the church, and you know, families routinely disrupt

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Speaker 3: one another's Thanksgiving dinners and Christmas celebrations with their differences,

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Speaker 3: and that's what's happened here. So again it shows the

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Speaker 3: hypocrisy that that I'm confronting my my family with.

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Speaker 5: Got it, but carry I know we have to push.

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Speaker 5: I did just want to ask this final question for

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Speaker 5: me and that that's on the rev. Just sort of

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Speaker 5: how in your in your most connected way, as you

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Speaker 5: as you as you consider how some of your former

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Speaker 5: compounderies and maybe even still Compoudreis might think about this,

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Speaker 5: but just the hierarchy of threat that white evangelical men

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Speaker 5: sort of consider when considering their politics. So for instance,

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Speaker 5: if if we, if they, if the other side wins,

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Speaker 5: and in there, if I'm them, the other side would

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Speaker 5: be Democrats. I guess what is is it? Is it

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Speaker 5: that they're going to promote black people above us and

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Speaker 5: our sons and our children. Is it that they're going

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Speaker 5: to make abortion free and available everywhere?

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Speaker 2: Is it?

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Speaker 5: Where do you when you get to the real crux

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Speaker 5: of what barrier sits in the way of me being

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Speaker 5: able to get over what coalition or alignment or agreement

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Speaker 5: looks like with the other side. I mean, you can

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Speaker 5: see bodies strown in the streets. You can see protesters

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Speaker 5: mishandled disrupted. You can see even women who are approaching

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Speaker 5: abortion clinics be railed against and cried and insulted and

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Speaker 5: made to feel in fear, to watch children even put

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Speaker 5: in cages. Because this isn't the first time the Trump

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Speaker 5: administration has done that. They've done that before. But there's

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Speaker 5: still these walls that exist that keep otherwise decent people

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Speaker 5: from being able to make the leap to say Godly,

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Speaker 5: that just isn't right and it is not just right

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Speaker 5: because it happened to my wife. It's not right because

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Speaker 5: it happened to another fellow family member of the human

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Speaker 5: you know race, and it's indecent. What are I always

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Speaker 5: try to think about, what's the thing that's keeping you?

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Speaker 5: Is your fear of me?

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Speaker 1: That big?

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Speaker 5: Have you made me out to be that much of

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Speaker 5: a threat, that that's keeping you from being a better human?

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Speaker 5: But what is it? As you think about what that

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Speaker 5: hierarchy of either threat or fear dislike I don't even

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Speaker 5: know what to call it, because I don't know what it.

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Speaker 3: Is well, I think fear is the best or at

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Speaker 3: least principle way of understanding of understanding it. And I

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Speaker 3: don't want to be Maudlin, and I don't want to

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Speaker 3: turn your quality podcast into my confessional books, but I

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Speaker 3: think it is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we got the.

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Speaker 3: Okay, okay, Well, no reason for you to associate in

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Speaker 3: the first place. But you know, I'll confess that for

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Speaker 3: uh thirty years, I did business with fundraisers who created

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Speaker 3: millions of messages that went out across the United States.

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Speaker 3: And I was a small, a bit player. I would

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Speaker 3: send out five to ten million communic case a year.

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Speaker 3: Many of my friends that I kept company with in

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Speaker 3: those days would send out hundreds of millions of messages,

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Speaker 3: mostly connected to fundraising platforms. And I'll describe those to

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Speaker 3: you this way. In one exchange that I've thought about

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Speaker 3: many times and I've written about, with one of my

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Speaker 3: contracted fundraisers, he sat at a conference room table and

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Speaker 3: he told me in nineteen he said, look, let me

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Speaker 3: put it this way. The more fear and the more

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Speaker 3: anger you'll give me, the more money I will raise

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Speaker 3: for you. You give me a lot of fear and anger,

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Speaker 3: I'll raise a lot of money for you. You give me

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Speaker 3: a little fear and anger, I'll raise a little bit

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Speaker 3: of money for you. So you decide. But let me

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Speaker 3: tell you this, he said, I want you to think

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Speaker 3: of Helen. She lives on a rural road in Kansas,

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Speaker 3: neighbors three miles away. Her husband's been dead for several years.

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Speaker 3: She rarely ever sees her kids or her grandkids. They

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Speaker 3: all live in other states. The biggest moment in her

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Speaker 3: day is when she goes to her rural mailbox on

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Speaker 3: the roadside, pulls out a letter from you and reads

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Speaker 3: through those eleven pages with multiple underlines and exclamation points.

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Speaker 3: And when she's done reading, she is terrified of the

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Speaker 3: world her children will inhabit. And you're going to tell

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Speaker 3: her the only way that she can solve that problem

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Speaker 3: is to send your organization one hundred dollars, and you're

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Speaker 3: going to get that hundred and probably two hundred. Every

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Speaker 3: single time I fired him, I canceled, but I acquiesce

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Speaker 3: just enough to hire another group. Almost most at that

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Speaker 3: level that's being done and has been done now for

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Speaker 3: forty or fifty years. People have been shaped and formed

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Speaker 3: in that year, and now they've taken the reins of

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Speaker 3: government power, and they are also afraid, but they're more

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Speaker 3: cynical when they are afraid. But the people who are

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Speaker 3: giving them that power and that money are terrified of

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Speaker 3: the world as they imagine it. And this has to

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Speaker 3: do with what I call the southernization of American evangelicalism,

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Speaker 3: who were once the leaders in the abolitionist movement. The

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Speaker 3: first women's rights a conference was held at an evangelical

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Speaker 3: church in Seneca Falls, New York in what was that

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Speaker 3: eighteen forty But in any case, evangelicals were once the

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Speaker 3: leaders of social progress and innovation. They were champions of

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Speaker 3: minority rights, and they were overrun by the Southern churches

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Speaker 3: that wanted to preserve the Confederacy, and they did it.

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Speaker 3: Anybody wants to read some really revelatory work on that.

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Speaker 3: Charles Reagan Wilson, American Southern historian, writes on the religion

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Speaker 3: of the Lost Cause in a book, his principal book,

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Speaker 3: which is very readable, only about two hundred and fifty pages.

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Speaker 3: Baptized in blood. It's really worth reading it. It helps

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Speaker 3: you to understand the white evangelical mind as it's been

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Speaker 3: formed over the last one hundred and fifty years.

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Speaker 5: Appreciate that, appreciate reverse incentives.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I just first of all, I just kind

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Speaker 1: of want to want to wrap this up by where

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Speaker 1: I began, which is to say, thank you for coming on,

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Speaker 1: thank you for your journey, thank you for sharing your journey,

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Speaker 1: and thank you for being what we but I believe

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Speaker 1: to be the most powerful thing you can be in

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Speaker 1: this country, which is an example. So I think we

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Speaker 1: all say on this show Native Lampard, I'm the newest

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Speaker 1: member here, but welcome.

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Speaker 5: Home, welcome home, come home.

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Speaker 3: You feel very undeserving of that.

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Speaker 6: Thank you, praying for you, praying for you, Robert, thank.

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Speaker 1: You, thank you. That, ladies and gentlemen, was the Reverend

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Speaker 1: Robert Shank, former right wing activist turn dissenting evangelical organizer,

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Speaker 1: and right here on the other side, we will do

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Speaker 1: our calls to action and get us on out of here.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, very Shank, Thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 5: We appreciate your time.

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Speaker 1: Native lamp is a production of iHeartRadio and partnership with

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Speaker 1: reisent Choice Media. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your

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Speaker 1: favorite shows. And with that we out