WEBVTT - Maya Shankar ON: How to Embrace Change Gracefully & Find Purpose in Difficult Times 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.760 When we have these really big life changes, these big 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:07.520 milestones like we moved to another town, or we buy 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:09.719 a home for the first time, or we get married, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:11.720 or we have kids, or we take a new job, 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:15.920 those moments in time can serve as breaks from our 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:18.200 past and all the habits that we used to have. 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.320 In many ways, we can take on a new identity 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:31.000 in this new role. Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:33.519 the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:36.680 each and every single one of you for learning, listening, 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.120 and growing with us every single week. Now you know 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:43.240 that I'm always trying to find new minds, new people, 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:47.080 thought leaders who have insights that can help me learn, listen, 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:49.120 and grow. And then I want to share that with 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:51.839 you and today's guest. When I first read about it, 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:54.959 I was blown away immediately, and I knew I had 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:58.680 to have in the studio for this conversation. And so 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:02.160 we finally are here. She came all the way. She's 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:05.520 with us in person. I'm talking about none other than 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:07.959 Maya Shanka. Now, for those of you that don't know, 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:11.560 she's the senior director of Behavioral Economics at Google and 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:15.600 is the creator, host, and executive producer of the podcast, 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:19.360 A Slight Change of Plans, where she interviews fascinating guests 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:21.480 that I can't wait to talk to her about. She 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:24.880 previously served as a senior advisor in the Obama White House, 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:27.559 where she founded and served as chair of the White 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:31.560 Houses Behavioral Science Team, a team of scientists tasked with 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:36.560 improving public policy using research insights from human behavior. Maya, 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:41.600 thank you so much for being here. Your resume is phenomenal. 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:46.240 You have an incredible set of expertise. I secretly wish 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.120 I was a behavioral economist, so I'm hearing that that 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:53.120 comes from my Behavioral economics has been like my passion 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:56.120 since I was fifteen years old. And I'm not smart 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:58.720 enough to be one, but I get to sit with 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:00.400 you today and get to pick your brain. So thank 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:01.840 you for being here. Oh my gosh, thank you so 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:03.920 much for having me at such a pleasure to be 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:06.800 with you and to be in person with you, which 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:08.920 feels so special at this point in time. Yeah, and 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:11.240 we've already been talking offline and getting on so anyone 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:13.800 who's listening to this podcast, you're in for a real tree. 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:20.080 Maya is so warm, so relax, so just you have 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:21.720 such a warm energy about yourself. I know you were 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.400 saying that about my wife, but you have the same 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:27.440 I need to tell your listeners. So knocked on the 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:31.520 door and Radie Jay's wife opens the door, has no 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:35.120 idea who I am. I'm with my friend Madeline, and 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:39.560 she greets us in absolutely the warmest way. She's like, hello, 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:42.919 welcome to my home. I have no idea who you are, 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:45.040 but I'm going to be effusive and warm anyway. And 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:48.880 I was so struck by her presence and that kind 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:50.440 of energy. And then of course you walk up the 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:52.560 stairs and you have exactly the same vibe. So I 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:54.640 know why you guys are married. It's very sweet to 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:56.600 see that in action. Well, we felt the same from 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:58.399 you immediately as well. And I feel like we're old 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.400 friends already. Yeah, and that we're talking. And I want 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:03.600 to go back because I do want to use this 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:05.960 as an excuse to get to know you better. But 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:08.560 let's go back to the beginning of your journey. And 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.639 I read that you were off to become a really 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:14.880 successful violinist, and that was the path that you were 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:18.200 on until you experienced an injury. I want to hear 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:22.560 about that journey, your fascination with music and tell us 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.600 about how it all started out. Yeah, So when I 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:27.480 was six years old, my mom went up to her 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:30.120 attic and brought down my grandmother's violin that she had 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:32.000 brought with her all the way from India when she 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:34.160 immigrated to this country. So it's one of those few 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:36.600 things that she carried with her. And when I was six, 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:38.760 she brought it down from the attict and showed it 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:41.280 to me, and she had only meant for me to 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:42.840 see it. She said, oh, you know, I want you 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:45.280 know this is your patty's instrument, right, that's how you 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:48.960 say grandmother and Thummel. And I looked at it, and 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.720 she noticed that I was so quickly taken by the instrument. 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:56.960 I very quickly asked for a pint sized violin of 0:03:57.000 --> 0:03:58.720 my own, and she went to the store and got 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:03.920 me a quarter sized violin. And I was infatuated. I mean, 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:06.480 my mom never had to tell me to practice. Every day. 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:09.480 I'd rush home from school, go upstairs, open my instrument. 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:11.280 And I assure you, Jay didn't feel that way about 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:13.840 everything I was studying in school, but the violin was 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:16.520 something that just felt like it came so naturally to me. 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:19.960 And so when I was nine years old, and I 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:22.560 was that classic kid with really big dreams and no 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.040 idea how to get there. My mom and I were 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:29.000 in New York and now my parents have no connections 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.920 at this point into the classical music world. And so, 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:35.640 you know, my dad's a theoretical physicist. My mom helps 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.159 immigrants get green cards in this country. They had no 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:41.080 idea how to facilitate, you know, this transition for me. 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:44.359 But then my mom is such a fearless go getter. 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:46.800 So we're walking by the Juilliard School of Music in 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:49.320 New York one Saturday. I happened to have my violin 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:52.800 with me, and she said, Maya, why don't we just 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.120 go in? What do you why don't we just go in. 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:57.360 We don't have an invitation, that's why we don't go in. 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.520 That's nuts. And she's like, let's just go in. Let's 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:01.520 see what what's the worst thing that can happen. I 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:02.680 was like, well, i'll tell you the worst thing that 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:04.560 can happen. I'm gonna get rejected and it's going to 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:06.800 be terrible. And my mom didn't care. She's like, we're 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:11.000 going in. So we walk into Juilliard uninvited, and we 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:14.640 stumble upon a fellow classmate, and my mom says, hey, 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:19.080 would you mind if my daughter auditions for your teacher today. 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:21.200 I know, you know, we don't have the formal invitation, 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:23.279 but that would be wonderful. And they were so generous 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:26.880 and kind, and I auditioned for him and he accessed 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:28.960 me into a summer program, and then six months later 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:33.600 I auditioned for Juilliard and get accepted. So yeah, I mean, 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:35.600 my mom is she sought me so many lessons, but 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:38.560 one of them was don't wait for you know that 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:43.039 silver plate, just create it right. And so that began 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:46.839 my journey of just being so in love with violin. 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:50.200 And when I was a teenager, it's a Pearlman asked 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:52.719 me to be as private violin student. And I'm sure 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:54.359 a lot of your listeners can relate to this, but 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:57.479 when you're in a deeply competitive environment like Juilliard, you 0:05:57.520 --> 0:05:59.919 don't really know if you have what it takes to succes. 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:02.840 And so when Perlman took me on as his student, 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:05.680 that was the vote of confidence that I needed, that like, oh, 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:08.360 maybe I do actually have what it takes. And so 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:10.560 I was even able to convince my parents that I 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:12.040 should you know, I wanted to go pro and they 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:13.640 were finally like, okay, fine, you don't have to do 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:16.000 the liberal arts education and you can go to a 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:19.040 conservatory for college. So I had everyone on board, and then, 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:21.320 like you mentioned, when I was fifteen, I had a 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:23.960 son and hand injury. Basically overnight, doctors told me that 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.440 I could never play the violin again, and as you 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:31.840 can imagine, I was just completely despondent because the violin 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:34.240 had played such a formative role in my life up 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.720 until that point. I felt like I was first and 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:41.960 foremost a violinists, right, it was my identity. And you know, 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:47.000 there's this interesting insight from cognitive science which says, which 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:49.680 is about this concept called identity foreclosure and refers to 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:53.800 the fact that we can get really fixed in certain identities, 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:56.560 especially in adolescence. I mean, it can carry through into adulthood, 0:06:56.600 --> 0:07:00.200 but certainly an adolescence, and I fell prey to that. 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:03.240 I kind of felt like, for the first time ever, 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:05.760 I was asking all these existential questions about myself, like 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.120 who am I? You know, who am I without the violin? 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:11.400 I'd never thought to ask myself that question before, and 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:15.360 in many ways, having being forced to pivot at that 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:18.160 moment in my life has given me a much more 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.600 malleable sense of self, a much more malleable identity, And 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:23.680 I think that served me well as i've you know, 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:27.480 endured life's twists and turns. Yeah. Wow, I mean I 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:30.320 can't imagine what it feels like to be that age 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:32.600 and be told you can't play an instrument again, and 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:34.840 you know something that you've built up such a close 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:37.800 relationship with over nine years. I mean, tell us about 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:39.920 what you were feeling. How did it affect your confidence? 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.240 Because I'm guessing at that time as well, when your 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:45.560 identities wrapped up in being a performer or being a 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:49.040 violinist and you have this incredible mentor and then that's 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:51.200 taken away, what does that? What did that feel like? 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:54.200 And you know what did that kind of push you towards? 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:57.480 What changed about you at that point. I resisted it 0:07:57.520 --> 0:07:59.920 for a while. I was the impatient teenager that was like, 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.280 I'm going to get through this. Damn those doctors, I 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:04.680 don't care what they say. Well, actually those doctors were 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:06.840 super right, and I needed to just have listened to 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:09.920 them from the beginning. But I think what it taught 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:14.760 me was something very important, which was it was much 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:18.360 more stable and sturdy for me to attach my identity 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:23.440 not to a specific thing, but to the traits of 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:26.200 that thing that lit me up. And so when I 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:29.120 dug deeper, I realized, you know, my child brain thought, well, 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:31.400 I love the violin. I love the instrument, I love 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:33.160 the way it feels, I love the sounds it produce. 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.440 But actually, Jay, the thing that really got me ticking 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:39.920 is the fact that my instrument allowed me to forge 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.960 a close emotional connection with people, almost effortlessly. So imagine 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:46.640 I'm a kid, right nine years old. I go on 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:49.400 to a stage. There's thousands of people in the audience 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.199 that I've never met before, they've never met me, and 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:56.760 within moments, I'm allowing them to feel something they've never 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:01.959 felt before. Right, we have some sort of emotional intimacy 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:04.240 and bond that's forming between us just because of the 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:08.840 music that I'm playing. And I realize, like, well, that's 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.280 what I'm actually passionate about. It's human connection. I mean, 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:14.719 that's probably why I responded so much to your warmth, right, 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:17.480 because that's genuinely what makes me tick in life, is 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:21.520 connecting with other human beings, trying to understand what motivates them, 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:25.200 what pains them, what brings them joy. And I feel 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:27.920 like that led me down this path to studying the 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.720 human mind in all of its intricacies, right, the science 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.200 behind the human mind. And in many ways it led 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:35.480 me to this new podcast. I've been creating a slight 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:38.680 change of plans where I have this license now to 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:42.240 go into a room and interview people like Hillary Clinton 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.600 and Tiffany Hattish and others and say, Hey, Hillary apropo 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:50.320 of Nothing, what is your biggest insecurity, what's the hardest 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:51.640 moment of your life? You know, you can cut through 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.600 all the pleasantries and just really dig deep. And I 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:56.520 think when I look over the course of my life, 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:00.200 that is the common thread. It's this deep design are 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:03.200 to emotionally connect with those around me. And I've just 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:06.240 try to find that in other pursuits. And you know, 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:08.319 for those listening, I feel like, if you're going through 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:10.880 a hard time where you're being forced to pivot, try 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:14.480 to identify what features or traits of things that you 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.000 like and then try to engage in an exploration to 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:20.120 figure out where else they might exist in other domains. Yeah, 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:21.760 I'm so glad you raised that point. I think that's 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:25.200 so powerful, Like we get so obsessed with activities and 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:29.600 identities shaped around activities, and it's not about activities. It's 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.960 about the aspects, the subtle things, the role you get 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.120 to play, the relationship you have with that thing that 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.880 makes a difference. I often say to people, let people 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:41.319 think like your purpose is to be a speaker, or 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:43.760 your purpose is to be a podcast, And it's like, well, 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:47.040 none of those are a purpose. They are vehicles and 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:51.679 they are platforms and their modes of sharing a message. 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:54.120 But the purpose is the reason why you do it 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:56.720 and your intention and what you put into it. I 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:58.760 think we all get so lost with like, well, what's 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.160 the activity that I want to do? So I love 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:03.520 how you broke that down and simplified that, but you 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:05.959 also gave me a few good You also gave me 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:07.880 a few good questions to ask you now, based on 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.280 what you've been asking other people. So I'm going to 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:12.920 be using them. One you I was going in that direction. 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:15.000 I wanted to know since then, what do you think 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:18.640 is the most difficult experience you've personally gone through since then? 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:21.200 So that was obviously a big thing at fifteen sixteen, 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.240 What since then has been probably the biggest personal challenge 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.520 that you feel you've been faced with. I think the 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:33.280 biggest challenge one faces is growing into themselves. I think 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:35.960 for me, if I were to summarize the biggest challenge 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.680 in my own life, it is the acceptance of certain 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:41.599 parts of my personality that I wish were different, that 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:44.360 I just need to be okay with and to manage 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.880 in life in spite of those things. Right, an example, 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:52.319 I'm incredibly impatient. I want everything to have happened yesterday, 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:55.560 and that impatience can have lots of negative I mean, 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:57.120 my mom would always say when I was a kid 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.079 that she's like, before I know what, you were running 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:01.440 across the street, you wait for the light to turn. 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:03.480 She's like, I was always terrified something was going to 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:07.160 happen to you. So I've always seen my impatience as 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.760 being a negative thing. But then I think about the 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:13.520 parts of my life in which that impatience has really 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:15.840 served me well. So a good example of this is 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.680 so quick backstory. So, as I mentioned to you, I 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:23.320 discovered cognitive science and I ended up becoming an academic. 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.360 So I did my PhD, I did my post STOC 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:29.600 and cognitive neuroscience, and I remember there was this moment 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:32.320 I was in the basement. I was at Stanford at 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:33.440 the time, so I was in the basement of an 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:37.079 fMRI laboratory and I was scanning this guy's brain. I'd 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:39.120 probably been in this windowless room in the basement for 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:41.800 about five hours at this point. So he comes in 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:43.720 and within moments I'm peering into his brain, and I'm 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:47.160 thinking to myself, given my personality, I feel like the 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:50.040 order of operations is a little off here, Like I 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:52.640 don't know whether this guy has kids. I don't know 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:54.880 what he's passionate about. I don't know if he has children, 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:57.040 I don't know his favorite ice cream flavor. Is these 0:12:57.040 --> 0:12:59.280 are important questions, jan I don't know anything about him, 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:03.200 and yet I'm peering into his brain, which feels really intimate. 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:06.160 So I remember thinking to myself, I'm too social for this, 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.640 like I need to pivot in some way. And I 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:11.120 didn't know what to do, because what does the post 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:13.720 talk and cognitive neuroscience do other than become an academic, 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:16.520 become a professor. So I ended up talking with my 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:23.680 undergraduate mentor who I know, you know, Laurie Santos, Yeah, yeah, 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:27.280 I know that. Yeah, she's one of my closest friends 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:30.960 and has been an incredible mentor to me ever since 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:33.320 freshman year of college. I can share the story having 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.600 met at some point later. But anyway, UM, I call 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:38.920 her out and I'm saying to her, Laurie, So the 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:40.920 thing I've been doing for the last ten years, I'm 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:43.199 kind of in like a JK moment before I no 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:45.840 longer want to be doing this. But what do I 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:49.000 do next? So I try to become a general management consultant, Like, 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:50.720 I don't understand what what I can do. So she 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:55.360 tells me, Maya, Um, there's this incredible work happening in 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.120 the White House right now where they are using insights 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:01.000 from our field, from the science of decision, and it 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:06.280 is changing people's lives. So, for example, they are changing 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.080 the default settings in this school lunch program that helps 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.440 low income kids eat lunch every day, and instead of 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:14.520 it being an opt in program, they're making it an 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:17.640 opt out program so that all eligible kids are automatically 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:20.680 enrolled without the need for a burdensome application or this 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:23.120 stigma associated with signing up your kids for a public 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.320 benefits program. And now parents only need to take a 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:28.960 step if they want to actively unenroll their kids from 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:31.680 the program. So as a result of that change, twelve 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:34.400 and a half million more kids were eating school at 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:37.960 lunch every day. So I'm thinking to myself, So this 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:40.600 gets to the impatient's feast, right, thinking to myself, Oh 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:44.040 my gosh, I want to have that job. But that 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.520 job doesn't exist. It just was work that was happening. 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.400 There's no role for a behavioral scientist. And so I 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:53.800 go home that day and Laurie makes you know some 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:56.600 connections for me, and you fly to DC and walk 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:58.680 into the wild. It's like you've walked into Julia. That's 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.200 that's what happens. Rights actually pretty close to that, Jay, 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:05.080 I send a cold email to an Obamba advisor. He 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:07.560 doesn't know who I am. I'm riding off the cotails 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.080 of famous people like Laurie Santos and Cass Sunstein who 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:12.520 wrote the book Nudge, and they're helping guide the way. 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.920 But I basically interview with the White House official. Two 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:19.000 days after I send this email, I moved to DC 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.560 without having a formal offer letter. I remember, I sold 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:24.920 everything California other than my bike. I signed a one 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.480 year lease in DC. And I was like, I'm here 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:29.480 whether you all like it or not, because I need 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:31.920 to be here. So that impatience kicked in. And then 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:34.120 it really kicked in when I was at the White House, 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:37.400 where I have this big, grand goal to build a 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:40.280 team of behavioral scientists and I wasn't given a mandate 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:43.680 or a budget to do so, and that impatient personality 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:47.440 really helped me thrive there, where I refused to take 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:50.040 no for an answer. I pushed people every day. I 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:53.000 was like, everyday matters in this administration. I feel like 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.120 accepting the parts of myself that I haven't always liked 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:58.920 and trying to figure out if there are silver linings 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.360 to those traits. Like my husband and I will often 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:04.440 do this even in our relationship, right where I'll be like, 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:07.360 I'll be like, Jimmy, you're being too much of a 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:09.640 people pleaser, Like you need to just say no to 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:12.240 the person, and he'll remind me. He'll be like, you know, Maya, 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:14.040 the fact that I can be a people pleas are 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.560 sometimes it does make me a very loving husband. You know, 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:18.920 I am very kind. I'm like, oh, you are really 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.400 kind and loving. You're so right, And so I think 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.040 my husband Jimmy has helped me. If we can do 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:26.320 that with each other, remind each other that traits are 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:29.160 complicated and complex, and they have pros and cons, and 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:31.720 we should give ourselves the same compact. You know, we should. 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.720 We should constantly remind ourselves. Um. And he you know, 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:38.200 he was teaching me by role modeling it with himself. UM, 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:40.840 I should remember that there are also some pros. I 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:45.720 love that comist. He's actually a software engineer. Okay, right, okay. 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:48.120 I was just like, is he like, you know, she's 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:50.280 very wise? I feel like he is a behavioral conomists 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:52.840 at times? Can I can I ask you that same question, though, 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:55.760 which is is there a trait in you where you 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:58.440 didn't always embrace it, but you've learned over time that 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:02.320 there might be a You know, it's really interesting when 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:04.520 when I think about I'd have to stop to think 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:07.119 about it if there's a trait I feel that way about. 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:09.439 When you started talking about that, the first thing that 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:12.000 came to my mind was and I've been feeling this 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:13.600 a lot lately, and I've been talking about it. It's 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:16.600 this idea of when I lived as a monk, I 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:19.360 was trying so hard to be a monk, and now 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:22.440 I've realized that that's just one part of me. I 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:27.879 love being a messenger through media. I love being a thinker, 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.400 I love being a content creator. I love being so 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:34.800 much more than that. Yeah, and that's such a big 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.240 part of my identity. It still is a massive part 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.120 of my life. It's it's the foundation of who I am, 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:43.240 but it's not all of me. I'm an entrepreneur, I'm 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:45.520 a married man, and I love being married, and I 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:48.760 love being an entrepreneur, and I love strategy and marketing, 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:50.959 and I love all these things, which wouldn't You wouldn't 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:53.879 think a monk likes all those things. And so it 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:55.879 took me a lot of time to kind of unravel 0:17:56.960 --> 0:17:59.440 what that identity was, where I saw myself as such 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:01.320 a long part of my life or such a deep 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:03.760 part of my life as a monk, and now to 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:06.280 realize that's a part of me and not all of me. Yeah, 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:08.520 And I think so I'm trying to think of a 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:11.640 trait to give you a more specific answer. I think 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:14.840 I've always been pretty self assured, and so I think 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:18.760 I've turned stuff probably earlier than people would. And that's 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:22.679 either that's my illusion or delusion, and I'm okay with that, 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:25.560 but I'd say that intensity. I always talk about intensity 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:27.800 as one of my traits. I'm a very intense person 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:31.959 if I'm focused and very laser focused, and that causes 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:35.200 a lot of issues because I can have tunnel vision. 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:38.760 I can be completely dedicated and obsessed with something and 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.680 not care about everything else for that time. But I've 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:45.040 also realized that's what helps me learn and grow quicker 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:48.080 and accelerate and move forward. And so I actually think 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:50.280 if you look at every one of your traits, You're right, 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:52.680 you'll find a prone, a con for every trait we have, 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:57.320 and you have to I think we have to learn 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:02.159 how to use them in a way that helps us 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:04.959 serve ourselves and serve others, as opposed to use them 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:08.119 in a way that forces other people to have to change. 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:10.040 And I think that's the part. I think that's the 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.320 part that I'm becoming more and more conscious of as 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:17.919 a trait. Is the trait of being extremely focused on 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:22.280 something shouldn't stop you from being aware of other people's feelings. 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:24.760 And I think if I can get that subtlety right, 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:27.920 then I'm going to win. Yeah, But if I don't 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:31.320 have that subtlety. I've worked with so many clients that 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.199 that's exactly the subtlety they didn't have, and then that 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:38.000 led to destruction of their families, their marriage, their personal lives, 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:40.000 or whatever it may have been in the pursuit of 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:42.679 greatness in a certain regard. Does that make sense? It 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:44.600 does make sense, And it's making me think too. As 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:48.160 I'm listening to you share this with me, I think, well, 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:50.320