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Speaker 1: When we have these really big life changes, these big

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Speaker 1: milestones like we moved to another town, or we buy

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Speaker 1: a home for the first time, or we get married,

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Speaker 1: or we have kids, or we take a new job,

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Speaker 1: those moments in time can serve as breaks from our

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Speaker 1: past and all the habits that we used to have.

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Speaker 1: In many ways, we can take on a new identity

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Speaker 1: in this new role. Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose,

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Speaker 1: the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to

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Speaker 1: each and every single one of you for learning, listening,

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Speaker 1: and growing with us every single week. Now you know

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Speaker 1: that I'm always trying to find new minds, new people,

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Speaker 1: thought leaders who have insights that can help me learn, listen,

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Speaker 1: and grow. And then I want to share that with

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Speaker 1: you and today's guest. When I first read about it,

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Speaker 1: I was blown away immediately, and I knew I had

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Speaker 1: to have in the studio for this conversation. And so

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Speaker 1: we finally are here. She came all the way. She's

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Speaker 1: with us in person. I'm talking about none other than

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Speaker 1: Maya Shanka. Now, for those of you that don't know,

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Speaker 1: she's the senior director of Behavioral Economics at Google and

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Speaker 1: is the creator, host, and executive producer of the podcast,

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Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans, where she interviews fascinating guests

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Speaker 1: that I can't wait to talk to her about. She

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Speaker 1: previously served as a senior advisor in the Obama White House,

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Speaker 1: where she founded and served as chair of the White

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Speaker 1: Houses Behavioral Science Team, a team of scientists tasked with

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Speaker 1: improving public policy using research insights from human behavior. Maya,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. Your resume is phenomenal.

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Speaker 1: You have an incredible set of expertise. I secretly wish

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Speaker 1: I was a behavioral economist, so I'm hearing that that

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Speaker 1: comes from my Behavioral economics has been like my passion

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Speaker 1: since I was fifteen years old. And I'm not smart

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Speaker 1: enough to be one, but I get to sit with

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Speaker 1: you today and get to pick your brain. So thank

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Speaker 1: you for being here. Oh my gosh, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for having me at such a pleasure to be

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Speaker 1: with you and to be in person with you, which

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Speaker 1: feels so special at this point in time. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: we've already been talking offline and getting on so anyone

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Speaker 1: who's listening to this podcast, you're in for a real tree.

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Speaker 1: Maya is so warm, so relax, so just you have

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Speaker 1: such a warm energy about yourself. I know you were

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Speaker 1: saying that about my wife, but you have the same

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Speaker 1: I need to tell your listeners. So knocked on the

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Speaker 1: door and Radie Jay's wife opens the door, has no

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Speaker 1: idea who I am. I'm with my friend Madeline, and

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Speaker 1: she greets us in absolutely the warmest way. She's like, hello,

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Speaker 1: welcome to my home. I have no idea who you are,

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Speaker 1: but I'm going to be effusive and warm anyway. And

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Speaker 1: I was so struck by her presence and that kind

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Speaker 1: of energy. And then of course you walk up the

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Speaker 1: stairs and you have exactly the same vibe. So I

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Speaker 1: know why you guys are married. It's very sweet to

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Speaker 1: see that in action. Well, we felt the same from

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Speaker 1: you immediately as well. And I feel like we're old

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Speaker 1: friends already. Yeah, and that we're talking. And I want

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Speaker 1: to go back because I do want to use this

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Speaker 1: as an excuse to get to know you better. But

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Speaker 1: let's go back to the beginning of your journey. And

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Speaker 1: I read that you were off to become a really

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Speaker 1: successful violinist, and that was the path that you were

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Speaker 1: on until you experienced an injury. I want to hear

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Speaker 1: about that journey, your fascination with music and tell us

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Speaker 1: about how it all started out. Yeah, So when I

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Speaker 1: was six years old, my mom went up to her

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Speaker 1: attic and brought down my grandmother's violin that she had

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Speaker 1: brought with her all the way from India when she

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Speaker 1: immigrated to this country. So it's one of those few

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Speaker 1: things that she carried with her. And when I was six,

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Speaker 1: she brought it down from the attict and showed it

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Speaker 1: to me, and she had only meant for me to

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Speaker 1: see it. She said, oh, you know, I want you

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Speaker 1: know this is your patty's instrument, right, that's how you

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Speaker 1: say grandmother and Thummel. And I looked at it, and

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Speaker 1: she noticed that I was so quickly taken by the instrument.

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Speaker 1: I very quickly asked for a pint sized violin of

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Speaker 1: my own, and she went to the store and got

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Speaker 1: me a quarter sized violin. And I was infatuated. I mean,

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Speaker 1: my mom never had to tell me to practice. Every day.

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Speaker 1: I'd rush home from school, go upstairs, open my instrument.

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Speaker 1: And I assure you, Jay didn't feel that way about

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Speaker 1: everything I was studying in school, but the violin was

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Speaker 1: something that just felt like it came so naturally to me.

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Speaker 1: And so when I was nine years old, and I

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Speaker 1: was that classic kid with really big dreams and no

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Speaker 1: idea how to get there. My mom and I were

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Speaker 1: in New York and now my parents have no connections

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Speaker 1: at this point into the classical music world. And so,

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Speaker 1: you know, my dad's a theoretical physicist. My mom helps

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Speaker 1: immigrants get green cards in this country. They had no

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Speaker 1: idea how to facilitate, you know, this transition for me.

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Speaker 1: But then my mom is such a fearless go getter.

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Speaker 1: So we're walking by the Juilliard School of Music in

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Speaker 1: New York one Saturday. I happened to have my violin

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Speaker 1: with me, and she said, Maya, why don't we just

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Speaker 1: go in? What do you why don't we just go in.

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Speaker 1: We don't have an invitation, that's why we don't go in.

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Speaker 1: That's nuts. And she's like, let's just go in. Let's

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Speaker 1: see what what's the worst thing that can happen. I

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Speaker 1: was like, well, i'll tell you the worst thing that

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Speaker 1: can happen. I'm gonna get rejected and it's going to

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Speaker 1: be terrible. And my mom didn't care. She's like, we're

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Speaker 1: going in. So we walk into Juilliard uninvited, and we

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Speaker 1: stumble upon a fellow classmate, and my mom says, hey,

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Speaker 1: would you mind if my daughter auditions for your teacher today.

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Speaker 1: I know, you know, we don't have the formal invitation,

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Speaker 1: but that would be wonderful. And they were so generous

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Speaker 1: and kind, and I auditioned for him and he accessed

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Speaker 1: me into a summer program, and then six months later

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Speaker 1: I auditioned for Juilliard and get accepted. So yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: my mom is she sought me so many lessons, but

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Speaker 1: one of them was don't wait for you know that

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Speaker 1: silver plate, just create it right. And so that began

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Speaker 1: my journey of just being so in love with violin.

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Speaker 1: And when I was a teenager, it's a Pearlman asked

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Speaker 1: me to be as private violin student. And I'm sure

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Speaker 1: a lot of your listeners can relate to this, but

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Speaker 1: when you're in a deeply competitive environment like Juilliard, you

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Speaker 1: don't really know if you have what it takes to succes.

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Speaker 1: And so when Perlman took me on as his student,

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Speaker 1: that was the vote of confidence that I needed, that like, oh,

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Speaker 1: maybe I do actually have what it takes. And so

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Speaker 1: I was even able to convince my parents that I

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Speaker 1: should you know, I wanted to go pro and they

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Speaker 1: were finally like, okay, fine, you don't have to do

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Speaker 1: the liberal arts education and you can go to a

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Speaker 1: conservatory for college. So I had everyone on board, and then,

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Speaker 1: like you mentioned, when I was fifteen, I had a

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Speaker 1: son and hand injury. Basically overnight, doctors told me that

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Speaker 1: I could never play the violin again, and as you

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Speaker 1: can imagine, I was just completely despondent because the violin

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Speaker 1: had played such a formative role in my life up

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Speaker 1: until that point. I felt like I was first and

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Speaker 1: foremost a violinists, right, it was my identity. And you know,

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Speaker 1: there's this interesting insight from cognitive science which says, which

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Speaker 1: is about this concept called identity foreclosure and refers to

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Speaker 1: the fact that we can get really fixed in certain identities,

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Speaker 1: especially in adolescence. I mean, it can carry through into adulthood,

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Speaker 1: but certainly an adolescence, and I fell prey to that.

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Speaker 1: I kind of felt like, for the first time ever,

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Speaker 1: I was asking all these existential questions about myself, like

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Speaker 1: who am I? You know, who am I without the violin?

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Speaker 1: I'd never thought to ask myself that question before, and

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Speaker 1: in many ways, having being forced to pivot at that

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Speaker 1: moment in my life has given me a much more

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Speaker 1: malleable sense of self, a much more malleable identity, And

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Speaker 1: I think that served me well as i've you know,

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Speaker 1: endured life's twists and turns. Yeah. Wow, I mean I

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Speaker 1: can't imagine what it feels like to be that age

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Speaker 1: and be told you can't play an instrument again, and

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Speaker 1: you know something that you've built up such a close

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Speaker 1: relationship with over nine years. I mean, tell us about

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Speaker 1: what you were feeling. How did it affect your confidence?

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Speaker 1: Because I'm guessing at that time as well, when your

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Speaker 1: identities wrapped up in being a performer or being a

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Speaker 1: violinist and you have this incredible mentor and then that's

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Speaker 1: taken away, what does that? What did that feel like?

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Speaker 1: And you know what did that kind of push you towards?

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Speaker 1: What changed about you at that point. I resisted it

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Speaker 1: for a while. I was the impatient teenager that was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to get through this. Damn those doctors, I

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Speaker 1: don't care what they say. Well, actually those doctors were

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Speaker 1: super right, and I needed to just have listened to

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Speaker 1: them from the beginning. But I think what it taught

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Speaker 1: me was something very important, which was it was much

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Speaker 1: more stable and sturdy for me to attach my identity

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Speaker 1: not to a specific thing, but to the traits of

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Speaker 1: that thing that lit me up. And so when I

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Speaker 1: dug deeper, I realized, you know, my child brain thought, well,

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Speaker 1: I love the violin. I love the instrument, I love

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Speaker 1: the way it feels, I love the sounds it produce.

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Speaker 1: But actually, Jay, the thing that really got me ticking

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Speaker 1: is the fact that my instrument allowed me to forge

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Speaker 1: a close emotional connection with people, almost effortlessly. So imagine

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Speaker 1: I'm a kid, right nine years old. I go on

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Speaker 1: to a stage. There's thousands of people in the audience

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Speaker 1: that I've never met before, they've never met me, and

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Speaker 1: within moments, I'm allowing them to feel something they've never

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Speaker 1: felt before. Right, we have some sort of emotional intimacy

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Speaker 1: and bond that's forming between us just because of the

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Speaker 1: music that I'm playing. And I realize, like, well, that's

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Speaker 1: what I'm actually passionate about. It's human connection. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's probably why I responded so much to your warmth, right,

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Speaker 1: because that's genuinely what makes me tick in life, is

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Speaker 1: connecting with other human beings, trying to understand what motivates them,

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Speaker 1: what pains them, what brings them joy. And I feel

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Speaker 1: like that led me down this path to studying the

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Speaker 1: human mind in all of its intricacies, right, the science

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Speaker 1: behind the human mind. And in many ways it led

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Speaker 1: me to this new podcast. I've been creating a slight

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Speaker 1: change of plans where I have this license now to

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Speaker 1: go into a room and interview people like Hillary Clinton

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Speaker 1: and Tiffany Hattish and others and say, Hey, Hillary apropo

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Speaker 1: of Nothing, what is your biggest insecurity, what's the hardest

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Speaker 1: moment of your life? You know, you can cut through

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Speaker 1: all the pleasantries and just really dig deep. And I

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Speaker 1: think when I look over the course of my life,

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Speaker 1: that is the common thread. It's this deep design are

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Speaker 1: to emotionally connect with those around me. And I've just

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Speaker 1: try to find that in other pursuits. And you know,

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Speaker 1: for those listening, I feel like, if you're going through

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Speaker 1: a hard time where you're being forced to pivot, try

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Speaker 1: to identify what features or traits of things that you

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Speaker 1: like and then try to engage in an exploration to

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Speaker 1: figure out where else they might exist in other domains. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you raised that point. I think that's

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Speaker 1: so powerful, Like we get so obsessed with activities and

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Speaker 1: identities shaped around activities, and it's not about activities. It's

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Speaker 1: about the aspects, the subtle things, the role you get

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Speaker 1: to play, the relationship you have with that thing that

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Speaker 1: makes a difference. I often say to people, let people

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Speaker 1: think like your purpose is to be a speaker, or

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Speaker 1: your purpose is to be a podcast, And it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: none of those are a purpose. They are vehicles and

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Speaker 1: they are platforms and their modes of sharing a message.

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Speaker 1: But the purpose is the reason why you do it

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Speaker 1: and your intention and what you put into it. I

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Speaker 1: think we all get so lost with like, well, what's

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Speaker 1: the activity that I want to do? So I love

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Speaker 1: how you broke that down and simplified that, but you

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Speaker 1: also gave me a few good You also gave me

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Speaker 1: a few good questions to ask you now, based on

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Speaker 1: what you've been asking other people. So I'm going to

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Speaker 1: be using them. One you I was going in that direction.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to know since then, what do you think

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Speaker 1: is the most difficult experience you've personally gone through since then?

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Speaker 1: So that was obviously a big thing at fifteen sixteen,

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Speaker 1: What since then has been probably the biggest personal challenge

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Speaker 1: that you feel you've been faced with. I think the

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Speaker 1: biggest challenge one faces is growing into themselves. I think

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Speaker 1: for me, if I were to summarize the biggest challenge

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Speaker 1: in my own life, it is the acceptance of certain

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Speaker 1: parts of my personality that I wish were different, that

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Speaker 1: I just need to be okay with and to manage

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Speaker 1: in life in spite of those things. Right, an example,

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Speaker 1: I'm incredibly impatient. I want everything to have happened yesterday,

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Speaker 1: and that impatience can have lots of negative I mean,

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Speaker 1: my mom would always say when I was a kid

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Speaker 1: that she's like, before I know what, you were running

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Speaker 1: across the street, you wait for the light to turn.

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Speaker 1: She's like, I was always terrified something was going to

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Speaker 1: happen to you. So I've always seen my impatience as

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Speaker 1: being a negative thing. But then I think about the

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Speaker 1: parts of my life in which that impatience has really

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Speaker 1: served me well. So a good example of this is

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Speaker 1: so quick backstory. So, as I mentioned to you, I

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Speaker 1: discovered cognitive science and I ended up becoming an academic.

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Speaker 1: So I did my PhD, I did my post STOC

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Speaker 1: and cognitive neuroscience, and I remember there was this moment

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Speaker 1: the time, so I was in the basement of an

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Speaker 1: fMRI laboratory and I was scanning this guy's brain. I'd

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Speaker 1: probably been in this windowless room in the basement for

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Speaker 1: about five hours at this point. So he comes in

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Speaker 1: and within moments I'm peering into his brain, and I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking to myself, given my personality, I feel like the

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Speaker 1: order of operations is a little off here, Like I

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Speaker 1: don't know whether this guy has kids. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what he's passionate about. I don't know if he has children,

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Speaker 1: I don't know his favorite ice cream flavor. Is these

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Speaker 1: are important questions, jan I don't know anything about him,

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Speaker 1: and yet I'm peering into his brain, which feels really intimate.

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Speaker 1: So I remember thinking to myself, I'm too social for this,

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Speaker 1: like I need to pivot in some way. And I

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Speaker 1: didn't know what to do, because what does the post

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Speaker 1: talk and cognitive neuroscience do other than become an academic,

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Speaker 1: become a professor. So I ended up talking with my

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Speaker 1: undergraduate mentor who I know, you know, Laurie Santos, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know that. Yeah, she's one of my closest friends

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Speaker 1: and has been an incredible mentor to me ever since

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Speaker 1: freshman year of college. I can share the story having

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Speaker 1: met at some point later. But anyway, UM, I call

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Speaker 1: her out and I'm saying to her, Laurie, So the

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Speaker 1: thing I've been doing for the last ten years, I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of in like a JK moment before I no

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Speaker 1: longer want to be doing this. But what do I

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Speaker 1: do next? So I try to become a general management consultant, Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't understand what what I can do. So she

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Speaker 1: tells me, Maya, Um, there's this incredible work happening in

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Speaker 1: the White House right now where they are using insights

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Speaker 1: from our field, from the science of decision, and it

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Speaker 1: is changing people's lives. So, for example, they are changing

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Speaker 1: the default settings in this school lunch program that helps

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Speaker 1: low income kids eat lunch every day, and instead of

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Speaker 1: it being an opt in program, they're making it an

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Speaker 1: opt out program so that all eligible kids are automatically

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Speaker 1: enrolled without the need for a burdensome application or this

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Speaker 1: stigma associated with signing up your kids for a public

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Speaker 1: benefits program. And now parents only need to take a

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Speaker 1: step if they want to actively unenroll their kids from

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Speaker 1: the program. So as a result of that change, twelve

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Speaker 1: and a half million more kids were eating school at

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Speaker 1: lunch every day. So I'm thinking to myself, So this

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Speaker 1: gets to the impatient's feast, right, thinking to myself, Oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, I want to have that job. But that

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Speaker 1: job doesn't exist. It just was work that was happening.

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Speaker 1: There's no role for a behavioral scientist. And so I

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Speaker 1: go home that day and Laurie makes you know some

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Speaker 1: connections for me, and you fly to DC and walk

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Speaker 1: into the wild. It's like you've walked into Julia. That's

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Speaker 1: that's what happens. Rights actually pretty close to that, Jay,

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Speaker 1: I send a cold email to an Obamba advisor. He

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Speaker 1: doesn't know who I am. I'm riding off the cotails

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Speaker 1: of famous people like Laurie Santos and Cass Sunstein who

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Speaker 1: wrote the book Nudge, and they're helping guide the way.

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Speaker 1: But I basically interview with the White House official. Two

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Speaker 1: days after I send this email, I moved to DC

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Speaker 1: without having a formal offer letter. I remember, I sold

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Speaker 1: everything California other than my bike. I signed a one

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Speaker 1: year lease in DC. And I was like, I'm here

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Speaker 1: whether you all like it or not, because I need

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Speaker 1: to be here. So that impatience kicked in. And then

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Speaker 1: it really kicked in when I was at the White House,

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Speaker 1: where I have this big, grand goal to build a

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Speaker 1: team of behavioral scientists and I wasn't given a mandate

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Speaker 1: or a budget to do so, and that impatient personality

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Speaker 1: really helped me thrive there, where I refused to take

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Speaker 1: no for an answer. I pushed people every day. I

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Speaker 1: was like, everyday matters in this administration. I feel like

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Speaker 1: accepting the parts of myself that I haven't always liked

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Speaker 1: and trying to figure out if there are silver linings

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Speaker 1: to those traits. Like my husband and I will often

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Speaker 1: do this even in our relationship, right where I'll be like,

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Speaker 1: I'll be like, Jimmy, you're being too much of a

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Speaker 1: people pleaser, Like you need to just say no to

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Speaker 1: the person, and he'll remind me. He'll be like, you know, Maya,

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Speaker 1: the fact that I can be a people pleas are

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Speaker 1: sometimes it does make me a very loving husband. You know,

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Speaker 1: I am very kind. I'm like, oh, you are really

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Speaker 1: kind and loving. You're so right, And so I think

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Speaker 1: my husband Jimmy has helped me. If we can do

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Speaker 1: that with each other, remind each other that traits are

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Speaker 1: complicated and complex, and they have pros and cons, and

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Speaker 1: we should give ourselves the same compact. You know, we should.

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Speaker 1: We should constantly remind ourselves. Um. And he you know,

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Speaker 1: he was teaching me by role modeling it with himself. UM,

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Speaker 1: I should remember that there are also some pros. I

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Speaker 1: love that comist. He's actually a software engineer. Okay, right, okay.

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Speaker 1: I was just like, is he like, you know, she's

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Speaker 1: very wise? I feel like he is a behavioral conomists

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Speaker 1: at times? Can I can I ask you that same question, though,

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Speaker 1: which is is there a trait in you where you

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Speaker 1: didn't always embrace it, but you've learned over time that

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Speaker 1: there might be a You know, it's really interesting when

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Speaker 1: when I think about I'd have to stop to think

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Speaker 1: about it if there's a trait I feel that way about.

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Speaker 1: When you started talking about that, the first thing that

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Speaker 1: came to my mind was and I've been feeling this

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Speaker 1: a lot lately, and I've been talking about it. It's

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Speaker 1: this idea of when I lived as a monk, I

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Speaker 1: was trying so hard to be a monk, and now

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Speaker 1: I've realized that that's just one part of me. I

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Speaker 1: love being a messenger through media. I love being a thinker,

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Speaker 1: I love being a content creator. I love being so

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Speaker 1: much more than that. Yeah, and that's such a big

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Speaker 1: part of my identity. It still is a massive part

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Speaker 1: of my life. It's it's the foundation of who I am,

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Speaker 1: but it's not all of me. I'm an entrepreneur, I'm

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Speaker 1: a married man, and I love being married, and I

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Speaker 1: love being an entrepreneur, and I love strategy and marketing,

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Speaker 1: and I love all these things, which wouldn't You wouldn't

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Speaker 1: think a monk likes all those things. And so it

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Speaker 1: took me a lot of time to kind of unravel

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Speaker 1: what that identity was, where I saw myself as such

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Speaker 1: a long part of my life or such a deep

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Speaker 1: part of my life as a monk, and now to

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Speaker 1: realize that's a part of me and not all of me. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think so I'm trying to think of a

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Speaker 1: trait to give you a more specific answer. I think

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Speaker 1: I've always been pretty self assured, and so I think

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Speaker 1: I've turned stuff probably earlier than people would. And that's

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Speaker 1: either that's my illusion or delusion, and I'm okay with that,

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Speaker 1: but I'd say that intensity. I always talk about intensity

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Speaker 1: as one of my traits. I'm a very intense person

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Speaker 1: if I'm focused and very laser focused, and that causes

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Speaker 1: a lot of issues because I can have tunnel vision.

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Speaker 1: I can be completely dedicated and obsessed with something and

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Speaker 1: not care about everything else for that time. But I've

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Speaker 1: also realized that's what helps me learn and grow quicker

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Speaker 1: and accelerate and move forward. And so I actually think

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Speaker 1: if you look at every one of your traits, You're right,

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Speaker 1: you'll find a prone, a con for every trait we have,

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Speaker 1: and you have to I think we have to learn

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Speaker 1: how to use them in a way that helps us

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Speaker 1: serve ourselves and serve others, as opposed to use them

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Speaker 1: in a way that forces other people to have to change.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's the part. I think that's the

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Speaker 1: part that I'm becoming more and more conscious of as

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Speaker 1: a trait. Is the trait of being extremely focused on

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Speaker 1: something shouldn't stop you from being aware of other people's feelings.

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Speaker 1: And I think if I can get that subtlety right,

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Speaker 1: then I'm going to win. Yeah, But if I don't

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Speaker 1: have that subtlety. I've worked with so many clients that

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Speaker 1: that's exactly the subtlety they didn't have, and then that

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Speaker 1: led to destruction of their families, their marriage, their personal lives,

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Speaker 1: or whatever it may have been in the pursuit of

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Speaker 1: greatness in a certain regard. Does that make sense? It

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Speaker 1: does make sense, And it's making me think too. As

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Speaker 1: I'm listening to you share this with me, I think, well,

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Speaker 1: of course you should embrace that, Jay, that's what makes

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Speaker 1: you so special and unique and rare. And of course

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Speaker 1: there's a silver lining, like, look at your life, look

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Speaker 1: at the positive impact you've had on so many And

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Speaker 1: what I'm realizing is that I so effortlessly see other

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Speaker 1: people through that lens. But because I think it's people

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Speaker 1: as humans, we're just so hard on ourselves. We rarely

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Speaker 1: turn it around and say, well, why don't you view

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Speaker 1: yourself with that same complexity? Yes, and maybe that's been

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Speaker 1: the hardest thing I've gone through, is trying to use

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Speaker 1: that same amount of compassion with myself. Yeah. And if

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Speaker 1: it's not our place to say, I also think it's

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Speaker 1: it's the difference in gender and men and movement. Two.

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Speaker 1: I do think that I have male privilege in that

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Speaker 1: you are just a bit more self assured and more

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Speaker 1: confident because it's been reaffirmed. Whereas from the studies I've read,

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Speaker 1: and you could probably speak to this a million times

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Speaker 1: more than I can, but women are more likely to

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Speaker 1: look at a job description and think, oh, my gosh,

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Speaker 1: I can't do seven out of those ten things, whereas

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Speaker 1: a man will look at it and go, oh, but

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Speaker 1: I could do three out of ten. That's good enough,

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Speaker 1: and that kind of discrepancy. I don't know how you

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Speaker 1: feel about that and how that affects it, but yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: I definitely. I mean, the studies are really compelling showing

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Speaker 1: that there are disparities, and you know, it's reminding me

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Speaker 1: nobody's immune to those effects. So remember so for my podcast,

428
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:03,800
Speaker 1: a slight change of plans, you know, the honor of

429
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,679
Speaker 1: interviewing Hillary Clinton, And what that interview taught me is

430
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,199
Speaker 1: that Hillary Clinton didn't come out of the box. Hillary Clinton,

431
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,600
Speaker 1: she had to go through her own personal journey and

432
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,199
Speaker 1: development and also resolve a lot of the insecurities and

433
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,200
Speaker 1: anxieties that you and I are talking about right now.

434
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:21,960
Speaker 1: So I remember she was telling me, she was sharing

435
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,280
Speaker 1: this story about how she had just left the White

436
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 1: House as First Lady, and she'd always been tethered to

437
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 1: her husband's identity, right, that had been the role that

438
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 1: she had played, and she was very productive in that role,

439
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:40,120
Speaker 1: but it wasn't her role. And she so fervently believed

440
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 1: that women should run for offices and be in leadership

441
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 1: positions and be in power. So she was motivating all

442
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,440
Speaker 1: these people around her to do that. And one day

443
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 1: she was an event promoting women in sports and this

444
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 1: basketball player leaned down and whispered into her ear, dared

445
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 1: to compete, missus Clinton, dare to compete. And she said

446
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,399
Speaker 1: she was astonished in that moment because no one had

447
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 1: said it to her like that. But she realized, suddenly,

448
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,160
Speaker 1: maybe I'm too afraid to do the thing that I've

449
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 1: been asking everybody else to do. Maybe I don't think

450
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 1: I'm good enough. Maybe I don't know if I have

451
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 1: what it takes and if people will like me and

452
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 1: if I have the right presence for politics. And that

453
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,360
Speaker 1: was so powerful to hear from someone like her. You know, wow,

454
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,680
Speaker 1: even Hilary at times felt this. And then to see

455
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 1: where she's come from there, I mean talk about inspiring, right,

456
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 1: she was able to overcome all of that and go

457
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:41,159
Speaker 1: on to accomplish incredible things. And I think that experience

458
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 1: showed me that we all have this kind of I mean,

459
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 1: it sounds so cliche, but it's so true. It's like

460
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,120
Speaker 1: we all have some degree of self doubt and it's

461
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 1: just a matter of finding ways to manage that and

462
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,400
Speaker 1: learning from other people's experiences. Absolutely, I want to backtrack

463
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 1: a bit too. First of all, having South Asian parents

464
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 1: in being and car to play the violin and go

465
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 1: to Juliard and then like, just your whole journey. I'm

466
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 1: fascinated by your parents. Sound amazing, You're wonderful. Tell us

467
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,120
Speaker 1: a bit about what it was like, Like, what did

468
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 1: you feel that other children in the South Asian dasper

469
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 1: when cars in the same direction. Did you feel like

470
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:18,199
Speaker 1: an anomaly? I want to want to hear about how

471
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,920
Speaker 1: you felt on that journey because it's very unique. I'm

472
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 1: not sure whether other South Asian kids were falling that

473
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 1: journey at that time because I grew up Yeah, I

474
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 1: was going to say, I grew up in a primarily

475
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 1: Caucasian hometown and we were one of the few families

476
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 1: of color anywhere. How did that feel like? Tell me

477
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 1: a bit about that, because I think that the South

478
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: Asian experience in England is very different than the South

479
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 1: Asian experience in the US. So yeah, I think I

480
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 1: was so eager to assimilate everything from you know, I

481
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 1: have like textured hair, and I remember going to a

482
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 1: birthday party and all the girls with the smooth, shiny

483
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 1: hair got got like the pretty scruncheese. I was given

484
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: a headband. It was like the one girl that didn't. Yeah,

485
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 1: I mean clearly I'm over this Jay. It's not like

486
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:08,160
Speaker 1: I still remember anything, no, no no, no, totally, but it's

487
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 1: like these small things. Um, I just so desperately wanted

488
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 1: to be um like the girls that I saw at school.

489
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: And you know, my dad remembers when i'd write all

490
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: these stories as a kid, I wouldn't use Indian names

491
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,919
Speaker 1: for my characters. It was always Catherine and Lindsay and

492
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 1: Katie and you know and so um. It took me

493
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 1: a long time to really feel comfortable in my skin.

494
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 1: And I think one thing that actually helped me on

495
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 1: that front is well, one, I'm one of four kids,

496
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 1: so I always felt a huge sense of tribalism, like

497
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: it's my family against the world. You know, um and

498
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 1: my parents were always deeply proud of being Indian, and

499
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 1: I loved that. I mean, especially looking back. You know,

500
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 1: it's like, my mom is a brilliant chef. She made

501
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: us amazing meals. At the time, I was like, we

502
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 1: should just get pizza, and I'm like, oh my god.

503
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: I had gourmet food in my home growing up. How

504
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: could I not have appreciated it? Um, So, they were

505
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: fiercely proud of being Indian, and while I rejected it

506
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,199
Speaker 1: as a child, I think I grew into it and

507
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: then you know, now I'm fiercely proud to be Indian.

508
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 1: And it's funny. One of the jobs that I had

509
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: right before grad school was working at Sesame Street and

510
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 1: I worked on the Indian version of the show, and yeah,

511
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 1: there's an Indian version of what I love about Sesame

512
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:19,919
Speaker 1: Street JA. A lot of people don't know that that

513
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 1: is that it changes young children's minds in ways that

514
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,360
Speaker 1: families can embrace. So, for example, in this was back

515
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: in the day. I don't know the show how the

516
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: show's evolved, but in the South African version, the main

517
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 1: Muppet character is HIV positive. She's always taking her medications

518
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: on time. It's reducing the stigma around HIV. And then

519
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: in Israel, the main muppets one is an era of

520
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: Muslim and ones that Israeli Jew and they're best friends

521
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,239
Speaker 1: and they both love hummus and they bond in all

522
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: these ways. And in the Indian version, the main character

523
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: Chunky is always wearing her backpack. She's committed to going

524
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: to school. It's all about, you know, young girls striving

525
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: in school. And so what I did was I worked

526
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: domestic kate the Indian version of the show so that

527
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 1: families in the United States could have it, so that

528
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: young kids growing up could feel the sense of pride

529
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: that I wish I had felt as a youngster, of

530
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: it only came later, so they could grow up hearing

531
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: languages like Hindi in their homes and grow up seeing

532
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,719
Speaker 1: young kids, young muffets, eating Indian food, eating with their hands,

533
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: you know. And so yeah, I mean it was a

534
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,719
Speaker 1: very interesting experience for my parents to come here. And

535
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: you know, my older three siblings thought a lot of

536
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: exposure to thumble our mother tongue. By the time I

537
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: came around, you know, they were like, oh, I think

538
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: the kids should just assimilate, you know, like, no everyhere,

539
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 1: we're all just figuring this out for ourselves. But I

540
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,479
Speaker 1: did spend my graduate years in England. I did my defail,

541
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 1: and it did feel like the salt Asian experience is

542
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: very different there. So I don't know if any anything

543
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,239
Speaker 1: I've shared resonates or doesn't resonate with your experience. Yeah, no,

544
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it does. Actually, like the

545
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,360
Speaker 1: idea of I think in your early years to kind

546
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: of be embarrassed or shy or unconfident about you Indian

547
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 1: experience are like when my mum would make me an

548
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 1: Indian lunch to take to school, like I would eat

549
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 1: it in the corner and hope that no one could

550
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: smell it or whatever. And now I feel the same

551
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,239
Speaker 1: ways you do. My mom made amazing food, and you know,

552
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: you're right with gourmet meals at home. And I'm I

553
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 1: was when you were saying that, all I was thinking

554
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: it was a jossa and I'm a massive fan, so

555
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: I was, you know, But the idea of just like

556
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,199
Speaker 1: starting to understand the value of that culture and then

557
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: sharing it out. But I love what you was sharing

558
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: about sesame story. I didn't. I had no ideas, so

559
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: I wish I had that to watch too. I didn't

560
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: have any of that to watch when I was growing up,

561
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 1: so I can imagine the impact of that. Tell tell

562
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 1: us about you, know, you've been studying human behavior. That's

563
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 1: your fascination. It's you, it's your deep passion. You've done

564
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: it at the highest levels and are doing it at

565
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: the highest levels. What's something that you've learned through that

566
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: about human behavior that scares you about you? Like, what's

567
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: something that's kind of like difficult or uncomfortable as a

568
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 1: researcher to come across and then you're trying to figure

569
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,719
Speaker 1: out or reconcile how to hopefully aid it or cure it.

570
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: That's a fascinating question. I've never been asked that before,

571
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: and it's such an important one to ask because we

572
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 1: have to be honest about the human condition and human nature.

573
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 1: I think the scariest thing, given the state of the

574
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: research right now, is that while it can be easy

575
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: to inspire behavior change in people, it is incredibly hard

576
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: for people to change their minds. And I think as

577
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: a culture, as a society, we are experiencing this in

578
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: spades right now, in a time when things feel incredibly

579
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: divided and divisive and you know, we can't even have

580
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: a normal Thanksgiving dinner anymore, Right, It's tragic. What I've

581
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: learned is that, you know, we know that people can

582
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: disagree even on empirical matters, right, like is climate change real?

583
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: Or is a coronavirus real? Or does gun control reform

584
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: actually reduce skun depths? And it's tempting for people who

585
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: haven't or empirical mind to think, well, I'll just give

586
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: them more facts. This is just the result of an

587
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: information gap, right. I can easily fill the gap just

588
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: by showing them the data, showing them the evidence. But

589
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: we know from research that this is missing a huge

590
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: part of the puzzle. And the piece that's missing is

591
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: people do not generate their attitudes and beliefs just based

592
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: on facts. They generate their attitudes and beliefs about the

593
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: world in part based on their membership to different groups

594
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: and the values those groups hold. And so there's this

595
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: really interesting study. It's actually from the fifties, and it

596
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: involved controversial referee calls during a football game, and they

597
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: had people who were fans of opposing teams watch this

598
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: footage of these controversial calls, and even though they were

599
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: watching exactly the same footage. Their assessments of these calls

600
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: vary considerably based on their group membership, based on their

601
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: team loyal So those people who were fans of one

602
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: team tended to feel like the unfair calls were in

603
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: their direction and vice versa. Right, And what's astonishing to

604
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: me about that research, and the reason I mentioned it

605
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: is it's not like these folks are consciously aware. Oh,

606
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: I know that I'm not able to be biased. I

607
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: know that I'm seeing a warped version of reality. Of

608
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: course not this is their reality. And it shows how

609
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: potent these group memberships are, that they can actually affect

610
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: people's perception of reality. And so what that means in

611
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: practice is that when it comes to bridging divides, we

612
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: need to use different techniques than just throwing information at people.

613
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: One of my favorite findings from behavioral economics to your

614
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: point about whether we can ameliorate some of these concerns

615
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: comes from a domain called moral reframing, and it's research

616
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: that shows that it's much more effective to hold people's

617
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: values as fixed and present an argument or present a

618
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: position in ways that affirm those values rather than threaten them. So,

619
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: for example, if you are trying to convince a conservative

620
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: to care more about the environment. You might frame it

621
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: as caring about the environment means preserving our nature's beauty,

622
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: our natural beauty, Right, it is patriotic to care about

623
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: the environment. You're talking with a liberal, you might focus

624
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 1: on the fact that investing in climate change reform can

625
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: actually help elevate those with socioeconomically underprivileged status, right, it

626
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: can help them thrive. And so in both cases, it's

627
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: the same policy objective. You're trying to get people to

628
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: care about the climate, but you are taking to account

629
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: what their existing value systems are. So if they don't

630
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: feel that in agreeing with you, they're threatening their tribal membership.

631
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: And that helps me build a lot of empathy for

632
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: people right now, because let's take the coronavirus. Right, it's

633
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: so easy to think it's just a mask, like just

634
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: wear when already I promise you'll make you safe. But

635
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: when you look at it through the lens of psychology,

636
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: through cognitive science, you realize wearing a mask for a

637
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: person can carry huge symbolic significance, and it could potentially

638
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: threaten the relationships in their life that they hold most sacred.

639
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: And so when you have that in mind. I just

640
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: think it's the in general, I think studying the human

641
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: mind is the greatest empathy builder that exists out there,

642
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: because the minute you uncover why it is that a

643
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: person has a particular belief, then there's an element of

644
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: understanding that allows you to approach the person differently and

645
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: for them to approach you differently potentially, and for you

646
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: to try to make to meet halfway. You know, yeah,

647
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. That was a beautiful answer, by

648
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: the way, And you know, as as scary as it is,

649
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: you are right that the study of the human mind

650
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: is potentially the only antidote because then you start to

651
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: see how you'll call it in your own trap yourself.

652
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: And I think that's the hardest part. As you were

653
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: saying with those fans, they couldn't see that they were

654
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: being really biased or you know, that they were getting

655
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: lost on one side because of their affiliation, and they

656
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: just couldn't see that, and not being able to see that,

657
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: not being able to step back and be an observer

658
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: and take your take the home jersey off, take the

659
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: away jersey off, and just be the referee yourself. And

660
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,239
Speaker 1: it's that's almost like we need referee vision, like you

661
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: need to be able to see the game as hopefully

662
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: an unbiased referee word to be able to truly make

663
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: the right cause. Sorry, yeah gone, Yeah No, I completely

664
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: agree with that, And I also think the wonderful thing

665
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: about being in my field is that it is serving

666
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,479
Speaker 1: up solutions and is giving us tactics that we can

667
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: use in our day to day life when we converse

668
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: with those we disagree with. So I was talking about

669
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 1: this with Adam Grant, who I had on my podcast recently.

670
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: A love Adam, huge fan, He's wonderful, And I was

671
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: talking about how I had interviewed Darryl Davis for my podcast,

672
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: and Darryl Davis is a black jazz musician who was

673
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: approached by a member of the Ku Klux Klan when

674
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: he was performing at a bar one night and the

675
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: guy at the bar said, Hey, I love your music.

676
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: Man's it's incredible. And then Daryl finds out that this

677
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: man is from the clan, and he starts to ask

678
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: himself a series of questions like how is it that

679
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: these people can hate me without even knowing me? And

680
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 1: so he ends up pivoting in his life. Talk about

681
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: a slight change of plans and ends up inspiring hundreds

682
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: of people to leave white supremacy groups. And it's an

683
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: astonishing story of how someone who has every card stacked

684
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,399
Speaker 1: against them, even in terms of personal safety, having these conversations,

685
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: conducting these interviews with members of the clan could find

686
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: a way to penetrate their minds and ultimately get them

687
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: to make one of the greatest leaps we can see

688
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 1: in terms of my set change, which is going from

689
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: believing in absolute vitriol to turning their backs on the clan.

690
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: And what I loved about my interview with him Jay

691
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 1: is that so much of what he was sharing is

692
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 1: corroborated by the science, so we know when it comes

693
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: to changing people's mind certain tactics are very effective. You

694
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: want to show genuine curiosity for why that person has

695
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: their beliefs. You want to increase your question to statement ratio,

696
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 1: so you're asking them, well, how did you arrive at

697
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: this belief in the first place, and what evidence would

698
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 1: in theory change your mind? What would you have to

699
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: learn in order to think differently about this? And one

700
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: reason I love that question is that it presupposes that

701
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: they ought to be willing to change their mind in

702
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 1: the face of evidence, which is not something we can

703
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: always take for granted. And then there's other techniques, like

704
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 1: you try to affirm that you're not questioning their morals,

705
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 1: you're not questioning their values or their humanity. Over the

706
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: course of the conversation, you're just simply trying to understand

707
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: why it is that they believe in something. And then

708
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: I think the most powerful one, and this is something

709
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: Darrell shared with me, is he doesn't like to say

710
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 1: that he changed people's minds. He likes to say that

711
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: he inspired them to change their own minds. And the

712
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: science there corroborates that beautiful, poignant statement, which is you

713
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 1: want to recruit their own sense of agency. You want

714
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: to make them feel that it was them who decided

715
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: to change their minds. You arm them with new perspectives,

716
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: with information, with your own personal story, but let them

717
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: wrestle with all that. And then the sturdiness of a

718
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: mindset change that a person themselves inspires is far greater

719
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: than trying to impose a set of beliefs on someone. Yeah,

720
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: I could agree more. I often find that when when

721
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 1: we're presenting something to someone and they're not taking up

722
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: to it, we think it's because of their weakness. Yea.

723
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: Often it's our weakness in the presentation. Right. It's like,

724
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: if something's not been clearly articulated or presented to someone

725
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: or in a way they can digest it, they may

726
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: not remember it and they may not understand it. But

727
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,399
Speaker 1: the response ability of that for so much more on

728
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: those of us that feel we know and are sharing

729
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: this new way or alternative path. And I've found that

730
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: so much so in you know, the work I do

731
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: when I'm working with people on which effectively is changing

732
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: their behavior. And I very early on a lot of

733
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 1: people would ask me, like, don't you get frustrated when

734
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 1: someone doesn't start meditating after you've been telling them about

735
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: meditation whatever? Maybe, And I'm just like, I don't because

736
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,240
Speaker 1: I know how long it took me to start meditating.

737
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: Safe to tell you now that I don't meditate even

738
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: though I don't, because I know you're going to be empathetic. Yeah, no, exactly,

739
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: because it's just, first of all, I know how long

740
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: it took me. Second of all, I know I know

741
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: how hard it is. And I've seen this research on

742
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: people's minds and I haven't done it, but I've seen

743
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 1: it and read it, and I can also just recognize

744
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 1: that I still haven't said something that lets the penny

745
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 1: drop for them, right, Like I I there's somewhere where

746
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: I need to go. And usually what I've found is

747
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,919
Speaker 1: it's not what I say or even I do, It's

748
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: an experience they need to have. And that's kind of

749
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: the question I've always been asking, is what experiences this

750
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: person not had yet that will help them change their mind,

751
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: Because if they have that experience, then that's theirs. Kind

752
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: of what you're saying, like, then that's theirs to keep.

753
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: But if their experience is only through what I tell them,

754
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: then that's not their experience. It's my experience. And so

755
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: for me, it's always been about creating and facilitating experiences

756
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: and experiments for people to help them get their own

757
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 1: research and data and their own conclusion rather than saying

758
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: or doing anything. And so I'm always fascinated by how

759
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: you can use experiments and experiences to help people have

760
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: a new, a newfound solution that they didn't even comprehend before. Yeah,

761
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:45,439
Speaker 1: I love the way that you just said it. That's

762
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: my experience, not theirs, And it reminds me, you know,

763
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: one of the women that I interviewed for a slight

764
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: change of plans. Her name is Megan Phelps Roper, and

765
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 1: she grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church. I don't

766
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: know if you're familiar with this church, but it is

767
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: the othern poverty Law Center I think refers to them

768
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: as the most rabid hate group of America. So they

769
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: are homophobic, anti Semitic. Basically, they hated everybody who's not

770
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: a member of the church, and they do abhorrent things

771
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 1: like show up at military gay military funerals. They wanted

772
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: to protest the Sandy hook shot. I mean, it's horrible.

773
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: And Megan grew up in this church. Her grandfather was

774
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,359
Speaker 1: the founder, and she was absolutely indoctrinated. I mean she

775
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: was steeped in the ideology from a very very young age,

776
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: and she grew up to become one of those one

777
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 1: of their most ardent, vocal advocates for the church, and

778
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: people engage end up engaging with her on Twitter actually

779
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: in this very compassionate way that you and I have

780
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: been talking about, where they tried to just help her

781
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: understand that maybe there were a few holes here and there.

782
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: That's how they know. The very slow process and they

783
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: would reaffirm her humanity, and they would just point out

784
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: some inconsistencies, like the moral reframing stuff that I was.

785
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: They wouldn't say, Megan, what you believe is crazy. They

786
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: would say, you know, actually there's a few issues here

787
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: and there, and what she says. So she ended up

788
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: leaving the church in her mid twenties, which meant leaving

789
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 1: her family behind and leaving basically everything she ever believed

790
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: to be true behind. And I asked her this question, right,

791
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 1: I said, how do you think about your family, right,

792
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 1: and the fact that they haven't left, like what gives

793
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 1: you hope? How do you think about your former self?

794
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: You know? And she said, I don't try to detach

795
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 1: myself from my former self, even though I disagree one

796
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 1: million percent with what that former self was like, because

797
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 1: I can then feel close to the person that I was,

798
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: And the person that I was was someone who was

799
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: persuaded by absolutely terrible ideas and then one day saw

800
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: the light. And that gives me hope that if my

801
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: family experiences the same thing that I experienced, if people

802
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,240
Speaker 1: treat them and exactly the way they treated me, maybe

803
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: there's hope for them too. So it's exactly what you

804
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 1: just described, where she knows I can't just I'm not

805
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: able to just tell them that this is wrong. But

806
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: I'm hopeful because I saw that journey in myself. I

807
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 1: am a convert, and so I believe that if I

808
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: can just set up the right environments for them to

809
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: get that kind of exposure, they could potentially lead to Yeah.

810
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: It's that idea of like people don't have a remote

811
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: control that has the fast forward about it on life,

812
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: so you can't see the future implications of your current action. Yeah,

813
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 1: and you can see around you, but it never feels you.

814
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: It never feels like it's about you. And so the

815
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 1: reason why it resonates so strongly with me is because

816
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: and we spoke about this a bit earlier before offline,

817
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: but I was someone who experimented with a lot of

818
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 1: drugs when I was young, but I never got addicted, obsessed,

819
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: or never really got into doing something for a long

820
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: period of time. And the only reason why that happened

821
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: is I met one of my friend's aunt who was

822
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: an addict, and I saw her have a fit in

823
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: front of me, and it was such a traumatic experience

824
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: where we thought she was going to die and she didn't, thankfully.

825
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 1: We you know, we call the ambulance and everything else.

826
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: But it was like it was such a like traumatic

827
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 1: live event of seeing someone who has an addict to

828
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: a particular substance to then go through that in front

829
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: of us as young men, and for me to go, Okay,

830
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: I'm never messing around with this stuff ever again. And

831
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 1: it was like an experience. And it's the same way

832
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 1: I think about what you were saying earlier, that facts

833
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 1: don't work, Like we know, every cigarette pack has the

834
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,959
Speaker 1: label and it's never worked. Like you know, that doesn't

835
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 1: stop people, But when someone loses someone in their life,

836
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 1: or when someone hears about someone getting an unfortunate diagnosis

837
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 1: because of one of their habits, it starts to change

838
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,919
Speaker 1: their mind. Tell me about something that we talked about,

839
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 1: traits that you've started to see both sides of Do

840
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: you think that works for everything? Or have there been

841
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: certain behavioral changes you've made in your life that you

842
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 1: felt just had to be transformations for you? So I

843
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: think for me, exercise has been the thing that I

844
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: really had to introduce behavioral changes around because I've seen

845
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: I almost don't do it for fitness reasons, Jay, I

846
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 1: do it from my mind, and it is so powerful

847
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: for my mind, like the days that I work out

848
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: versus the days that I don't feel totally different to me.

849
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 1: And I've actually used some behavioral change insights to motivate

850
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 1: me to exercise. I'll share one of those with you.

851
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 1: It's an insight that was generated by my friend Katie Miltman,

852
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: who's a professor who studies change, and it's called temptation bundling.

853
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 1: And the logic behind this is to pair up an

854
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: undesirable activity with a desirable activity, and you're only allowed

855
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: to do the desirable activity if it accompanies the undesirable one.

856
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: So one of my favorite things in life is to

857
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: discover a new pop song. Okay, I'm into all of it.

858
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 1: Like course, Taylor Swift, I guess Casey musgraises and pop.

859
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: She's someone I interviewed for my podcast and I love

860
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: her music, but she's you know, she's genre defying. Yeah,

861
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: but I love discovering a new song. But I know

862
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 1: because of the way the brain adapts, that I'll only

863
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: get like thirty or forty really good listens out of

864
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: a song before it becomes old hat, right, and so

865
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: I save it. I only listen to these songs when

866
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 1: I'm on the treadmill or I'm lifting weights, or I'm

867
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: on the elliptical, and my poor husband, because he'll be like,

868
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, we're cooking dinner, let's play the new

869
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: Casey Mustgraise album. And I'm like, we do not play recreationally, Okay,

870
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 1: it needs to be saved for these sacred moments when

871
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 1: I'm working out. It's been wonderful to like, you know,

872
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,359
Speaker 1: even though I study change for a living, even though

873
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,839
Speaker 1: a behavioral economist, I fall prey to all the same

874
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: human biases that we all fall prey to, of course,

875
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: and so I'm using these strategies every single day in

876
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: my life to try to optimize in and reach some

877
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 1: of these longer terms. I love no one, So wait,

878
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 1: is that reasons that she says you're only gonna get

879
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: thirty to forty plays out of a song? Is that

880
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 1: reasons that no, this is just the my formula. I

881
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: have no idea what it is for you, Jay. I

882
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: think given you your Monk days, you're probably closer like

883
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: a hundred because you'll see two mentions of the song

884
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 1: that I can't possibly appreciate given your death and my

885
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 1: relative superficiality. Um, but for me, it's about thirty and

886
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 1: then I've done. That is such a no. But you know,

887
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: that's brilliant. I love that. That is the most interesting,

888
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: unique piece of advice that I think. You know that

889
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: that's going to help so many people who I can

890
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,479
Speaker 1: imagine everyone now talking to their partner or their friend

891
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: today going I turn that song off right now. I'm

892
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: only using it for those painful moments exactly. That's genius.

893
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,760
Speaker 1: I love that, And and that's a Mayashanka original special.

894
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,359
Speaker 1: I love that it's brilliant. Tell us a bit about

895
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 1: what you're doing on a day to day basis. I find, like,

896
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 1: you know, you have this role at Google and you're

897
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: studying human behavior on a day to day basis. I

898
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: find there's two questions here. The first question is, tell

899
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 1: me what you do on a day to day basis.

900
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 1: What's fascinating about it? Because I have no idea what

901
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 1: you do on a day to day basis. The more

902
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: interesting question for you probably will be the second one,

903
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: which is what is an area that you think behavioral

904
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: economists haven't really uncovered or understood yet? Because so when

905
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: I've read books about behavioral science, behavior economists. It's been

906
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: about the relationship between money and human behavior, the relationships

907
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: between everything from lying and stealing in human behavior through

908
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 1: to you know about the different character traits or the

909
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,720
Speaker 1: idea of giving and service and human behavior. But I'm wondering,

910
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: what's an area that you're fascinated to uncover and you

911
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: think we're just scratching the surface on we don't actually

912
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: know a lot about. Yeah, I love that question. I

913
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: think one area, and this is actually something I was

914
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 1: also talking about with Katie Milkman, is how durable some

915
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 1: of these behavioral change insights are. Yes, such a good one.

916
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: It's so hard because behavior change that's a one time thing,

917
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 1: like the decision to sign up for retirement or get

918
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 1: your COVID vaccine or remember to call your mom on

919
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: her birthday. That's a maybe a once a year type

920
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,479
Speaker 1: of commitment or maybe a once in a lifetime type

921
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,240
Speaker 1: of commitment, and then you're done. And from a public

922
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 1: policy perspective, we become excellent at this. So I remember

923
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 1: when I was working in the Obama White House, I

924
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,240
Speaker 1: was able to work on a lot of these nudges

925
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 1: where you shift just one thing and then the person's

926
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: life potentially has changed forever. So I talked to you

927
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 1: about the school lunch program. Right, you make that one

928
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: change and now millions of kids are getting lunch at

929
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: school every day. Or I worked with military service members

930
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 1: in order to help them get enrolled in retirement savings plans,

931
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 1: and again that's like a one time decision and then

932
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 1: they're done. The ones that are much harder are the

933
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,839
Speaker 1: day to day behaviors where we have to build these

934
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: habits over time and sustain those habits over time. And

935
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 1: we just haven't cracked the nut fully on how to

936
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: encourage long term behavior change on the things we value most.

937
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: And that's because we're human, Jay, Right, We're fallible, We

938
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,839
Speaker 1: fall prey to temptation left and right, and it's just very,

939
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: very hard to be a highly disciplined person. Right. That's

940
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: probably one of the reasons why you recommend everyone that

941
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: they meditate, because I can help with sustained behavior change,

942
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: but it would be wonderful to see additional innovations within

943
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,240
Speaker 1: that space. Yeah. I love hearing you say that, because

944
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 1: I've found that, at least through my own mechanisms and work,

945
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 1: I've kind of found like a trifecta that gets closest

946
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: and the challenges that a lot of behavioral changes you

947
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: said is not around anything that is consistent. And so

948
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 1: for the three levels that I've found that at least

949
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: in my work that really do help people are coaching, consistency,

950
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 1: in community that have a massive impact on people. And

951
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: we built a program three years ago now that was

952
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 1: centered around these three areas, and through our research and studies,

953
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: we've been able to see how people have become happier

954
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: and more successful, more financially free through the program. Yeah,

955
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 1: and of course we're dealing with we're dealing with thousands

956
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 1: of people, not millions of people in that program, but

957
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: it's phenomenal to see how those three things together, coaching, consistency,

958
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 1: and community are so powerful that coaching gives you that

959
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: inside and advice. Consistency is the one I think is

960
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 1: ignored in everything. It's like, like you said, you do

961
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: that one nudge and that doesn't create a cascading life

962
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,439
Speaker 1: changing effect. And so that consistency of weekly check ins

963
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 1: and then finally the community aspect of having a group

964
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: of people that you're doing it with has been so powerful.

965
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 1: But yeah, tell me what you're doing on a day

966
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 1: to day basis and what you're discovering and learning. I

967
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 1: think the consistency piece that you just mentioned is really interesting,

968
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 1: and there is one potentially powerful antidote for this that

969
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: comes out of behavioral economics research, and that's called the

970
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 1: fresh start effect. And it's the idea that when we

971
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: have these really big life changes, these big milestones like

972
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: we move to another town, or we buy a home

973
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 1: for the first time, or we get married, or we

974
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: have kids, or we take a new job, those moments

975
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 1: in time can serve as breaks from our past and

976
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 1: all the habits that we used to have. In many ways,

977
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: we can take on a new identity in this new role.

978
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 1: And what research shows is that people are far more

979
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: effective at introducing a new kind of consistency or sustain

980
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: behavior change when their surroundings are physically different. They don't

981
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 1: have some of the same cues and reminders every day

982
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 1: that might inspire them to, you know, eat the chocolate

983
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 1: cake versus the fruit salad, and um. They're commute to

984
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 1: work is different, so now maybe they're gonna walk versus

985
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 1: take their car um. And So I do believe in

986
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: the power of fresh starts, and you don't necessarily to

987
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:42,720
Speaker 1: wait for a major milestone. Sundays can serve as fresh starts,

988
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 1: like certainly January first conserve as a fresh start. Um

989
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: every Monday is a fresh start for me exactly. But

990
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 1: we found, for example that military service members, again this

991
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 1: is work I was doing in the Obama White House,

992
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: We're more likely to sign up for a time savings

993
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: plan on the first day of Spring when they reminded

994
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:04,760
Speaker 1: that it was a new beginning and a new start

995
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 1: to their future lives. And so I really do believe

996
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 1: that if if your listeners are struggling with that kind

997
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:13,919
Speaker 1: of consistency and are looking to build a new set

998
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: of habits that better aligned with their long term goals,

999
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 1: look out for that moment, those moments in your life

1000
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: where you're breaking from the past and you can re

1001
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 1: establish herself and the kinds of behaviors that you aspire

1002
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: to associate yourself with can be more present. Yeah, I

1003
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 1: can agree. Well, I think I've always used a new job, hile,

1004
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:34,919
Speaker 1: moving to a new town, or joining a new group

1005
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 1: as being an opportunity to redefine my identity in that

1006
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 1: space of who I want to be. So I got

1007
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: introduced to spirituality, like just on the cusp of leaving

1008
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: high school and going to college. And so college is

1009
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 1: where I got to redefine who I was, whereas at

1010
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 1: high school I was a rebel and troublemaker and all

1011
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:54,720
Speaker 1: the rest of it. And then all of a sudden,

1012
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:56,359
Speaker 1: I went to college and I was like the kid

1013
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: who meditate and everything else. And it was so great

1014
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 1: for me because I was no longer held down by

1015
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: that baggage of the identity I had crafted for myself

1016
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: where people expected me to be a certain way. And

1017
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:11,319
Speaker 1: then of course, after leaving being a monk and coming

1018
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 1: back into the world, it was easier to always come

1019
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 1: back and be like, oh, I don't go to that,

1020
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 1: or I don't drink or I don't do this, because

1021
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 1: I'd had this life experience, whereas if I would have

1022
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 1: joined the corporate world before, maybe I would have had

1023
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 1: a very different experience. So I completely can relate to

1024
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 1: so much of that advice. Yeah, I love seeing this

1025
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: insight play out in your life. I'm wondering, you know,

1026
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 1: when you went to college, was it a really intentional

1027
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,320
Speaker 1: action to change, Like, yeah, were you seizing that moment?

1028
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 1: It was? It was because I think I'd created such

1029
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 1: a role that I played at high school where I was,

1030
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 1: like I said, the rebel, the troublemaker, the person who

1031
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:48,839
Speaker 1: was a funny drunk like I just had a role

1032
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 1: that I'd created. It was a role. It wasn't me.

1033
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: It was just just an identity that I enjoyed being

1034
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 1: because people enjoyed that version of me, and none of

1035
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,280
Speaker 1: my and I took gap year before I went to college,

1036
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: which was great because all my friends went off to

1037
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 1: their respective colleges and lived their first year lives and

1038
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 1: all the rest of it. And I went to a

1039
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 1: college where none of my school friends went, and so

1040
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:13,879
Speaker 1: I had a complete blank slate when no one knew

1041
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 1: who I was and there was no history, and I

1042
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: could completely reframe who I wanted to become. And so

1043
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,879
Speaker 1: I ran a philosophical society every week at college, and

1044
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:26,359
Speaker 1: I meditated, and everyone would come to me to learn

1045
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 1: these skills and techniques I was learning from monks, and

1046
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: it was almost like I could be the person I

1047
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: wanted to be. And I think that helps so much.

1048
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 1: You know, this reminds me of another insight from behavioral economics.

1049
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: It's called identity priming, and it refers to the fact

1050
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:43,760
Speaker 1: that our behaviors often aligned with the identities, the social

1051
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: identities that we either associate ourselves with now or aspire

1052
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 1: to associate ourselves with. And I think your experience underscores

1053
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 1: the importance of, especially when you're young, not allowing people

1054
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: to give you labels, because the moment you're given a

1055
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 1: label the rebel, funny, drunk, whatever it is, you feel

1056
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 1: some degree of pressure to assimilate to that or to

1057
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: ensure that your behaviors are aligning with that identity day

1058
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 1: to day. And part it's just to reduce cognitive dissonance

1059
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 1: within yourself, right you want to believe that your identity

1060
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 1: means something and that you're living it out every day.

1061
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 1: And you know this was true in when I was

1062
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 1: talking with Darryl Davis, who says, you know, it's sometimes

1063
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:27,839
Speaker 1: it's important to label behaviors as racist versus people as

1064
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 1: racist if you feel like they're redeemable, that they can change,

1065
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 1: because if you give people a label, they will carry

1066
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 1: that with them and it might not facilitate the same

1067
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,760
Speaker 1: kind of change. And I remember when I was working

1068
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 1: with the reentry population while at the White House, We're

1069
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 1: designing guides for people who were leaving prison and you know,

1070
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:49,319
Speaker 1: the transition back to civilian life can be a very

1071
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 1: challenging one, but it's also a fresh start in which

1072
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: we want people to tap into their best selves and

1073
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 1: reach their goals. And we were very careful in this

1074
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:00,880
Speaker 1: guide book, this transition book, to not refer to people

1075
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 1: as former convicts or ex convicts or ex prisoners. Instead

1076
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 1: we called We made sure that the labels we were

1077
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 1: using were community members, job seekers. Those kinds of labels

1078
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 1: are forward looking. You can allow people to use those identities. So, yeah,

1079
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 1: it's just your your personal experience. Trasitioning from high school

1080
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 1: to college allows me to see how important it is

1081
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:24,799
Speaker 1: that we just we don't let others label us, and

1082
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: we also don't label ourselves. Yeah, yeah, and I love that.

1083
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 1: I love that how simple, even when you are describing that,

1084
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: just hearing those words changes how you view that person,

1085
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: even for the new people that are going to get

1086
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 1: to meet them. And I think so many of us

1087
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 1: are carrying around old labels and old baggage and old

1088
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: identities that we don't want to be anymore. I think,

1089
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: I mean, so many people are like Jo, I don't

1090
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 1: want to be this person anymore. But all my friends

1091
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 1: think I'm this person, and so I love the idea of,

1092
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 1: you know, at least starting to test who we want

1093
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 1: to be in new new phases of our life and

1094
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 1: new places of our life. You've mentioned the podcast throughout

1095
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 1: the conversation of these amazing conversations that you're having. Tell

1096
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 1: me about why you decided to start a podcast and

1097
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:08,359
Speaker 1: why you called it a slight change of plans, because

1098
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 1: I love the title, but I want to know the

1099
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 1: reason for why you did that. Yeah, I think it

1100
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 1: was part inspired by my personal experience with change, you know,

1101
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 1: losing the violin at a young age and asking myself

1102
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: all these existential questions about identity. It's in part inspired

1103
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 1: by my role as a cognitive scientist, right, someone who

1104
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 1: studies the mind. And I was eager to marry, you know,

1105
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 1: these two the narrative storytelling part of my life with

1106
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 1: the cognitive science part of my life. But the catalyst

1107
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 1: for this happened in twenty twenty and I was feeling

1108
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: really overwhelmed by the pace of change that was happening

1109
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 1: around me, and I know everybody was. It was this

1110
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 1: collective moment in the world where we all so acutely

1111
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: felt a loss of control. We realized how much of

1112
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:56,279
Speaker 1: an illusion control is, and it was easy to feel intimidated.

1113
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:58,400
Speaker 1: That would be the best word I could use to

1114
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 1: describe my state of mind as someone who loves planning

1115
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 1: and likes knowing how things are going to end out,

1116
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 1: and then also seeing all the tragedy around me in

1117
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 1: the racial upheaval, like it was just it was just

1118
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 1: a hard, very very hard time. And then I tried

1119
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 1: to put on my cognitive science hat, and what I

1120
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 1: realized is, well, the specifics of what twenty twenty through

1121
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 1: our way was absolutely unprecedented. Our human ability to navigate

1122
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 1: changes not in many ways, our minds are built for change,

1123
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:35,439
Speaker 1: and that's really important for us to recognize because, as

1124
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 1: you know, as a human civilization, we've done this rodeo

1125
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 1: many times before, this change thing. But there's no textbook

1126
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 1: out there with answers. It's not like in the throes

1127
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 1: of a huge life change, you can go to your

1128
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 1: textbook and open it up to page ninety and be like, ah, yes,

1129
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 1: here's the path that I should take. And so I

1130
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 1: thought to myself, why don't I try to find people

1131
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 1: who have been through extraordinary change in their lives? Right?

1132
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 1: People like Tiffany Hattish and Hillary Clinton and Casey Musgraves

1133
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 1: and Tommy Caldwell and then just a bunch of people

1134
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 1: I've either heard about or met in my personal life

1135
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: and hear their reflections and try to mind their stories

1136
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 1: for insights and lessons that we as listeners can take

1137
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 1: back into our own lives that might help us think

1138
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 1: differently at that change in our own lives. And it

1139
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 1: has been an absolute joy to make this podcast. I mean,

1140
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 1: I've never felt more closely aligned with something given who

1141
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 1: I am. Remember I told you about the basement of

1142
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 1: that framer I lab the podcast is the opposite that

1143
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 1: is actually the thing that I just I mean, I've

1144
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 1: fallen in love with it, and I think the reason

1145
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: is that you can meet people with two very similar

1146
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: sounding stories, but how they define their change moment will

1147
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,440
Speaker 1: be radically different, the lessons that they learn will be

1148
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 1: radically different. And so I feel like I mean this

1149
00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:00,120
Speaker 1: talk about eating a slice of humble pie. I have

1150
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 1: been so humble doing this podcast because my guests have

1151
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: taught me so much about change that I never would

1152
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 1: have appreciated absent listening to their stories. And it's been

1153
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 1: wonderful to go on this expedition with them about how

1154
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,560
Speaker 1: it is people have navigated some of the toughest changes

1155
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 1: that you can imagine in life. Yeah, no, absolutely, living

1156
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:21,440
Speaker 1: or not living. Who would be someone that you are

1157
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: fascinated about the amount of changes in their life for

1158
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 1: all those transitions in their life. I mean there's always Oprah,

1159
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 1: That's the obvious one. You know what's interesting, Jay, is

1160
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 1: that when you meet someone, you don't always appreciate the

1161
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 1: full depth of their life stories. I'll give you one example.

1162
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 1: One of the people that I interviewed for this podcast.

1163
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 1: His name is Scott. He's just a friend and colleague

1164
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 1: of my husband's. I've had dinner with him once back

1165
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, and he is a self proclaimed health nut.

1166
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,440
Speaker 1: So he sounds like you and Rabi now right, So

1167
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 1: he's vegan, He does intermittent fasting, he does high intensity

1168
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 1: interval training. He adds turmeric and chia seeds to like

1169
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 1: his food whenever possible. Outlook, we're both Indians, so we

1170
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 1: know that turmeric is a delicate spice, so if you

1171
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 1: not pour it on anything, but this guy is adding

1172
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 1: a turmeric to his food. So if it's in a

1173
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 1: book somewhere saying that something's healthy, He's done it. And

1174
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 1: then in twenty twenty, Scott got a stage four bone

1175
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 1: cancer diagnosis and within weeks he had to get his

1176
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 1: right leg amputated. He had to pack up his bags,

1177
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 1: moved to MD Anderson in Texas do eighteen administrations of chemotherapy.

1178
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 1: He also had to get a verteber removed from his spine,

1179
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 1: and I think his tibia was removed from his other leg.

1180
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 1: Scott's worst nightmare came true. He had literally spent his

1181
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 1: entire adult life trying to avoid this outcome. Now I

1182
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:51,480
Speaker 1: talk to him and I'm interviewing him for this podcast,

1183
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 1: and he's telling me he's in the throes of it all.

1184
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 1: When I'm interviewing him, he actually just finished up his

1185
01:00:56,240 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 1: treatment yesterday. He says to me, you know, Maya, my

1186
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:05,000
Speaker 1: worst nightmare came true. But I'm sitting here in my

1187
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:09,920
Speaker 1: backyard sipping a cup of coffee, and I'm realizing the

1188
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 1: emotional thermostat has prevailed. I am more or less as

1189
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 1: happy as I was before the diagnosis. Sure, the bad

1190
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 1: moments are worse, I'll give you that. Nause is intense,

1191
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:25,160
Speaker 1: the pain is terrible. I have moments of fear, but

1192
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 1: the good moments are just as good. And he said,

1193
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 1: if I had known that I would respond this way psychologically,

1194
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 1: I would never have been as fearful of cancer as

1195
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 1: I had been in the first place. That's so stirring

1196
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 1: to me. And those are the kinds of insights that

1197
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 1: I carry with me, you know, because they give me

1198
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 1: hope and they make me understand just how resilient we

1199
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 1: are as people. Not everybody has Scott's story. You know,

1200
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:55,920
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I would respond in that way, but

1201
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 1: he didn't think that he would respond in that way.

1202
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 1: And so I love it when a guy I just

1203
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:04,080
Speaker 1: had dinner once, you know, I can have this kind

1204
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:06,640
Speaker 1: of conversation with and he teaches me. He gives me

1205
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 1: so much wisdom. And another thing he shared with me

1206
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 1: is he said, you know, I put so much emphasis

1207
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 1: My identity was so intricately entwined with my fitness up

1208
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 1: until this point, like I was smart fit Scott, like

1209
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 1: those are the two labels. You know, he's like a

1210
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 1: Harvard grad and all that stuff. And he said, this

1211
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:28,240
Speaker 1: whole experience is allowing me to see that maybe these

1212
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 1: traits that I saw so core to my identity are

1213
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 1: more negotiable than I thought. He's the word negotiable, and

1214
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:38,520
Speaker 1: I love that he goes, yeah, maybe I can't do

1215
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 1: a handstand, but like I'm still Scott at the end

1216
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 1: of the day. And the final lesson that I learned.

1217
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:46,320
Speaker 1: While I learned so many lessons, one of the final

1218
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,600
Speaker 1: lessons I learned from Scott's interview was he said, you know,

1219
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 1: my would be a shame if my body deteriorated, my

1220
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:55,000
Speaker 1: personality also got worse. So I'm going to use this

1221
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 1: to become a better person. And to me that was

1222
01:02:57,360 --> 01:02:58,919
Speaker 1: a testament to the fact then this is a trade

1223
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:02,440
Speaker 1: I see across all my guests us is we are

1224
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 1: natural storytellers in our hearts. You know, no matter what

1225
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 1: you're spiritual or non spiritual beliefs, it is just human

1226
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:12,520
Speaker 1: nature to try to find meaning and silver linings in

1227
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 1: adversity and change, to almost justify the randomness of it all.

1228
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 1: And hearing Scott be so intentional about that growth and saying, look,

1229
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:26,920
Speaker 1: I need to just make the best of it, I

1230
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:29,400
Speaker 1: love that, and I think that's that's such a powerful story.

1231
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 1: So maybe maybe to your earlier question, I think my

1232
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:36,560
Speaker 1: dream guest is someone who just teaches me something new

1233
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 1: helps me see the world through a different bantage point.

1234
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 1: You know, they don't have to be someone I've already

1235
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 1: heard of. I just love seeing the world through different lenses. Yeah. Absolutely,

1236
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:47,360
Speaker 1: I think that's a beautiful answer, and I'm so glad

1237
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 1: you shared that journey. I just on Saturday, I got

1238
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 1: the news that my best friend, who is almost like

1239
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:57,280
Speaker 1: my brother, who was a monk, he just passed away

1240
01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 1: after suffering with colon kans of four years, but it

1241
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 1: had spread far beyond his color and it was everywhere,

1242
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 1: and so he like I don't know how many cycles

1243
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:07,760
Speaker 1: of chemo he had, like thirty or something like that,

1244
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:10,600
Speaker 1: and it was just every time he did feel it's

1245
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:15,040
Speaker 1: gone away, it had gone somewhere else. And I got

1246
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 1: to speak to him on the phone about three days

1247
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:20,320
Speaker 1: before he passed away, and I didn't know obviously, you

1248
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:23,080
Speaker 1: never know. And I got a message from one of

1249
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 1: the senior monks who was with him and said, oh,

1250
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:28,000
Speaker 1: we're just talking about you and we're thinking about you.

1251
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 1: And so I called him straight away and it was

1252
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:32,320
Speaker 1: like he'd gone to London for his treatment. It was

1253
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:35,160
Speaker 1: like eleven forty pm in London and three forty pm here,

1254
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 1: so I called him up and I got to be

1255
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:40,440
Speaker 1: on FaceTime with him, and he was like completely emaciated,

1256
01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:44,000
Speaker 1: like hunched over, but he was smiling, like he just

1257
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:46,760
Speaker 1: had this massive smile on his face, and he was

1258
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:50,640
Speaker 1: like that throughout his whole cancer journey. And I could

1259
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:52,440
Speaker 1: tell that this was the worst I'd ever seen him,

1260
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:54,680
Speaker 1: because up until every time I'd seen him, because he

1261
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 1: was taking treatment, he looked normal, as in not normal,

1262
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 1: that's the wrong word, but he looked his usual self.

1263
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:04,440
Speaker 1: This was the first time I'd seen him completely, you know,

1264
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:08,439
Speaker 1: emaciated and in bed, and he was just smiling away,

1265
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 1: and we were joking around, and we were both telling

1266
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:13,680
Speaker 1: each other stories and memories, and he'd lost his voice,

1267
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 1: so he could only like really whisper. And the senior

1268
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 1: Monk knows us birth, so he was kind of helping

1269
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 1: speak for him and translate for him and add for him.

1270
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:24,520
Speaker 1: And it was just remarkable to me to see someone

1271
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:28,640
Speaker 1: at the end of their life be so blissful, and

1272
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 1: all I could see was bliss that when I spoke

1273
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:34,640
Speaker 1: at his memorial yesterday, it was the most blissful memorial

1274
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 1: I've ever I was on zoom, of course, everyone was

1275
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 1: there in person, in England. But it was the most

1276
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:41,400
Speaker 1: blissful memorial I've ever been to because that was him.

1277
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:45,000
Speaker 1: And that's from what you're saying about Scott. It sounds

1278
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:47,960
Speaker 1: like a very similar energy of how to deal with this.

1279
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:50,240
Speaker 1: And you know, while he was at cancer, he was

1280
01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 1: leading charity initiatives to raise funds for cancer, raise awareness

1281
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:58,600
Speaker 1: for cancer. He was organizing meditation retreats for cancer patients

1282
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:00,480
Speaker 1: that were struggling at him so that they could all

1283
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:02,320
Speaker 1: grow together, because that's what he was doing, So he

1284
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:05,600
Speaker 1: was extending his practices out to them. Yeah, and he

1285
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:07,640
Speaker 1: just lived with so much purpose in the last four

1286
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:10,520
Speaker 1: years and so much service in the last four years.

1287
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:15,360
Speaker 1: And yeah, that kind of mind is just unbelievable and phenomenal.

1288
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 1: Like you said, he's not famous, he doesn't have follow us,

1289
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 1: no one knows who he is. He's not having impacts

1290
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 1: on millions of people's lives. But everyone who knew him

1291
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 1: would say that he changed their life. Yeah what an

1292
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 1: honored him. Yeah that's friends. Yeah, Yeah, I was very

1293
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:32,800
Speaker 1: lucky to you know, he was kind enough to be

1294
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:35,560
Speaker 1: my best bud for a few years. But anyway, when

1295
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:38,520
Speaker 1: you're talking about Scott, I love that answer because I

1296
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:40,479
Speaker 1: think it's so true that there were just so many

1297
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:44,680
Speaker 1: people in the world who are going through enormously difficult things,

1298
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:47,640
Speaker 1: and hearing their stories gives us so much faith. Yeah,

1299
01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:51,120
Speaker 1: and in part I almost see my responsibility as uncovering

1300
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 1: the hidden stories. There's one There's one interview I did

1301
01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:59,480
Speaker 1: just just recently. It was with a guy named Morgan.

1302
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:04,160
Speaker 1: He was assigned female at birth, and he went through

1303
01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 1: hormone therapy to align his body with his true gender identity,

1304
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:15,040
Speaker 1: which is male. And for a while, Morgan is feeling

1305
01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:17,880
Speaker 1: intoxicated by the joy and liberation that comes from being

1306
01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 1: freed from his female body. He's a black man, and

1307
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:25,440
Speaker 1: he said his joy was punctured when he was confronted

1308
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:27,440
Speaker 1: with the harsh reality of what it means to be

1309
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:30,560
Speaker 1: a black man in society. And his first confrontation with

1310
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 1: this was literally being pulled over by the police in

1311
01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:42,680
Speaker 1: his grandmother's driveway. And it's an incredibly insightful, thought provoking

1312
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:48,440
Speaker 1: set of reflections from Morgan, because not only does he

1313
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:51,720
Speaker 1: share what it means to have gone through this transition

1314
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 1: and you know, embrace himself, but he ends up joining

1315
01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:02,360
Speaker 1: the force, He ends up becoming a police officer, and

1316
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 1: with the goal to reform it. And again, those are

1317
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 1: the kinds of those are the kinds of stories that

1318
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:12,439
Speaker 1: I live for, you know, and I want to hear

1319
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 1: them because I feel like, you know, we talked earlier

1320
01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:17,760
Speaker 1: about how being a cognitive scientist to me is like

1321
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 1: the greatest empathy builder. Well, if you marry the science

1322
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 1: with storytelling, it's it's an unbeatable combo in terms of

1323
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:28,560
Speaker 1: empathy building and just understanding the full range of human experience.

1324
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:32,880
Speaker 1: And um, yeah, I guess you can probably see it

1325
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:34,439
Speaker 1: to my face. People can't see it. But I just

1326
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 1: love obsessed with having these interviews because I do feel

1327
01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 1: like every single one I learn, it's not even that

1328
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:45,680
Speaker 1: I learned something new, I learn a new way of

1329
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 1: interpreting the world around me. It's a perspective shifty and

1330
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 1: that's I'm sure you find that when you when you

1331
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:54,120
Speaker 1: interview different people, as it changes the perspective with which

1332
01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:55,760
Speaker 1: you look at the world, and that's an incredible gift

1333
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 1: to be given. Yeah, and it's totally unpredictable. Like when

1334
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:01,920
Speaker 1: we started this conversation, it's I felt different to when

1335
01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:05,599
Speaker 1: I first read about you, and it's different to when

1336
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:08,040
Speaker 1: now we're coming to the end of our conversation, It's like,

1337
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:11,000
Speaker 1: we can have so many perceptions about someone and what

1338
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:13,880
Speaker 1: we expect to learn from them, and I can honestly

1339
01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 1: say that, sitting with you for the past hour, this

1340
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:20,160
Speaker 1: has been a totally unexpected conversation in a good way.

1341
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:22,519
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I think that's the power of getting

1342
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:25,439
Speaker 1: to listen to stories and listening to people and getting

1343
01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:28,679
Speaker 1: to meet people that you'd never meet before or otherwise,

1344
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:31,840
Speaker 1: because I think we're so good at and I guess

1345
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:34,640
Speaker 1: that's where Babor science is so interesting, because we do

1346
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:36,840
Speaker 1: have to box people to make sense of stuff, but

1347
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:39,320
Speaker 1: then we need to unbox them to actually make sense

1348
01:09:39,320 --> 01:09:42,400
Speaker 1: of them. Like it's a it's a weird paradox, right,

1349
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:44,320
Speaker 1: Like we always put people into categories so that we

1350
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:47,800
Speaker 1: can make decisions, but then we need to get them

1351
01:09:47,840 --> 01:09:50,720
Speaker 1: out of those to really deeply understand them. And so,

1352
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:53,280
Speaker 1: you know, I wasn't expecting that our conversation would go

1353
01:09:53,320 --> 01:09:55,760
Speaker 1: down the journey that it has, but that's what's so

1354
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:58,960
Speaker 1: beautiful about it. And so yeah, I want I want

1355
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:03,640
Speaker 1: to thank you for you know, doing your podcast. For

1356
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:05,400
Speaker 1: those of you who haven't listened to it, go and

1357
01:10:05,479 --> 01:10:09,800
Speaker 1: check out a slight change of plans. It's it's beautiful

1358
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:11,719
Speaker 1: to hear these stories that you have even been sharing

1359
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:13,479
Speaker 1: with us on the podcast, and I can't wait for

1360
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:16,040
Speaker 1: my audience stature go and listen to some of these conversations.

1361
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:18,200
Speaker 1: I know I'm going to do that because it sounds

1362
01:10:18,240 --> 01:10:20,479
Speaker 1: like you're just speaking to some people who and in

1363
01:10:20,479 --> 01:10:23,040
Speaker 1: a way that you know it's going to be really

1364
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:26,000
Speaker 1: insightful for people's changing growth but also for their heart.

1365
01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:28,960
Speaker 1: And I think that's what I love I You're What

1366
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:30,880
Speaker 1: I love about you from the little time that we've

1367
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:32,920
Speaker 1: spent together is that it feels like you bring a

1368
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:36,760
Speaker 1: lot of heart to science and that's rare, Like it's

1369
01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:39,120
Speaker 1: it's very rare. I feel like you're you're bringing your

1370
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 1: heart into how to help people change how they think.

1371
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:46,040
Speaker 1: And so, you know, storytelling is one thing, but heartful

1372
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 1: storytelling is is even a deeper step. So that's so

1373
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:53,000
Speaker 1: kind and generous of you to say in such a

1374
01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:56,200
Speaker 1: compliment too, because my hope is that I really can

1375
01:10:56,320 --> 01:11:00,880
Speaker 1: marry you know, science and humanity, I guess right. I

1376
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:04,680
Speaker 1: mean they're obviously really interconnected, but that has been my

1377
01:11:04,720 --> 01:11:06,599
Speaker 1: goal With a slight change of plans and It's kind

1378
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:09,559
Speaker 1: of been my goal living, you know, It's like, how

1379
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:11,240
Speaker 1: do I bring my heart to as many things as

1380
01:11:11,240 --> 01:11:14,760
Speaker 1: I possibly can. So it was such a pleasure to

1381
01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:16,200
Speaker 1: get to talk with you, jam I'm such a huge

1382
01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:18,439
Speaker 1: fan of your show and I'm just I'm just so

1383
01:11:18,439 --> 01:11:20,720
Speaker 1: grateful for the opportunity. So thank you, Well, thank you

1384
01:11:20,720 --> 01:11:22,880
Speaker 1: may Well. We're not done yet. We end every interview

1385
01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:26,160
Speaker 1: the final five. Oh, this is the fast five round

1386
01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:28,240
Speaker 1: where every question has to be answered in one word

1387
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:32,439
Speaker 1: or one sentence maximum as sentence I believe, or at

1388
01:11:32,479 --> 01:11:34,640
Speaker 1: least I've made this up as seven words maximum, so

1389
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:36,519
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's real or not. It's seven

1390
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:39,280
Speaker 1: to ten words maximum. So this is your fast five.

1391
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:43,320
Speaker 1: Your first question is what is the best advice you've

1392
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:48,599
Speaker 1: ever received? Find amazing mentors? Great? I love that. That's

1393
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:50,920
Speaker 1: a good one. And you've shared so many wonderful examples

1394
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:53,400
Speaker 1: of mentors that you've had in your life and absolutely

1395
01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:55,800
Speaker 1: and the amazing impact they've had on you. I'm gonna

1396
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:58,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna destroy my rules here, but it's important to

1397
01:11:58,360 --> 01:12:01,439
Speaker 1: do that. Yeah, how do people will find good mentors?

1398
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:04,880
Speaker 1: Teach us that? Because you know, I have my own,

1399
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:07,040
Speaker 1: my own thoughts on this, and I share that a

1400
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:08,640
Speaker 1: lot with my audience, But I'd love to hear your

1401
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:11,439
Speaker 1: perspective how people can find good mentors. Yeah, it's a

1402
01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:15,759
Speaker 1: good question. I've never done it intentionally. I've always slipped

1403
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:19,360
Speaker 1: into the mentee role, almost without realizing it. But my

1404
01:12:19,439 --> 01:12:22,559
Speaker 1: mentors have played a profound role in my life and

1405
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:25,799
Speaker 1: the way that it happened. In case this is helpful

1406
01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:30,120
Speaker 1: to folks is I'm always searching for people that I

1407
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:33,840
Speaker 1: admire and whose life I would love to lead, yeah,

1408
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:37,000
Speaker 1: you know, and and who's who bring that kind of

1409
01:12:37,040 --> 01:12:39,880
Speaker 1: heart to things because that's something that speaks to me

1410
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:43,200
Speaker 1: personally for me maya right. And then when I find

1411
01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:48,760
Speaker 1: those people like Laurie Santos, I just I cling to them,

1412
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:52,760
Speaker 1: you know. I I say, Oh, Laurie, like, you know,

1413
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:55,600
Speaker 1: addition to you mentoring me, um, can I work in

1414
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:58,040
Speaker 1: your lab? Can we get coffee? Can you actually be

1415
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:02,360
Speaker 1: my lifelong friend? You know? And I think as I've

1416
01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:05,280
Speaker 1: gotten older, one way to do that more effectively is

1417
01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:08,720
Speaker 1: I've just always I mean, everyone has different philosophies on this,

1418
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:11,679
Speaker 1: but I've always learned I've always blurred the line between

1419
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:17,639
Speaker 1: colleague and friend and it's irresistible for me. I can't

1420
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:21,960
Speaker 1: not bring that really personal side of myself to my work,

1421
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:24,280
Speaker 1: no matter what it is that I'm working on. It's funny.

1422
01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:26,240
Speaker 1: There was a quick anecdote just sorry, from from my

1423
01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:29,000
Speaker 1: time in you know, Bamba's White House. So the government

1424
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:30,759
Speaker 1: had just shut down, and there are all these ethics

1425
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:33,880
Speaker 1: rules about the fact that we couldn't hang out in

1426
01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:36,720
Speaker 1: our quote professional capacity. We could only hang out on

1427
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:40,000
Speaker 1: our personal capacity because otherwise we'd be violating federal rules.

1428
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:42,400
Speaker 1: But we were just planning. We're you know, we're all

1429
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:44,519
Speaker 1: very friendly and we just wanted to hang out as friends.

1430
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:47,559
Speaker 1: So I was joking with folks. I was like, ah,

1431
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:48,960
Speaker 1: I can't wait for all of you guys to see

1432
01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:51,880
Speaker 1: me in my personal capacity. And you know, one of

1433
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:54,559
Speaker 1: my friends best is like, oh, Maya, you're exactly the same.

1434
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:57,519
Speaker 1: And then another one of my friends goes, we're still

1435
01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:00,720
Speaker 1: waiting to see Maya and her professional capacity. So I

1436
01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:03,760
Speaker 1: think that says everything, which is I've larted that line,

1437
01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:05,800
Speaker 1: and I think what ends up happening is I just

1438
01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:08,320
Speaker 1: like naturally, end up becoming friends with the people I admire,

1439
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:11,519
Speaker 1: and then I find that they can be that they

1440
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:15,000
Speaker 1: have been just wonderful mentors. But it's always been I

1441
01:14:15,040 --> 01:14:17,120
Speaker 1: know this might be unsatisfying for listeners to be like, oh,

1442
01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:18,880
Speaker 1: why did it have to be an organic process for

1443
01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:20,920
Speaker 1: you buy? I want the like one, two, three checklist?

1444
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:22,880
Speaker 1: But I think that's kind of the only way I

1445
01:14:23,120 --> 01:14:26,800
Speaker 1: articul genuine. You know, you really want to be friends

1446
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:29,040
Speaker 1: with them because you're genuinely curious about the way they think,

1447
01:14:29,040 --> 01:14:31,280
Speaker 1: in the way that they live. Yeah, I love that,

1448
01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:34,559
Speaker 1: and I love that that's your authentic, genuine way that

1449
01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:36,840
Speaker 1: it's happened. That's beautiful. I think one of the most

1450
01:14:37,200 --> 01:14:39,600
Speaker 1: amazing things for me is that I genuinely believe you

1451
01:14:39,640 --> 01:14:42,400
Speaker 1: can be mentored by people you've never met. And so

1452
01:14:42,439 --> 01:14:45,920
Speaker 1: I've spent my life studying the lives, the words, the

1453
01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:48,680
Speaker 1: teachings of so many people that I admire that are

1454
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:52,040
Speaker 1: no longer alive, and simply sitting with their biographies and

1455
01:14:52,080 --> 01:14:56,080
Speaker 1: their autobiographies and listening to every interview and watching every

1456
01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:58,720
Speaker 1: TV show they went on or whatever they did, just

1457
01:14:58,840 --> 01:15:01,840
Speaker 1: looking at the records of their life. There's often times

1458
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:03,960
Speaker 1: where I'll sit there and be like, well, what would

1459
01:15:03,960 --> 01:15:05,960
Speaker 1: that person do with? There is an answer, It's somewhere

1460
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:09,280
Speaker 1: there and I've loved that because I would have loved

1461
01:15:09,320 --> 01:15:11,200
Speaker 1: to have been mentored by Martin Luther King or Steve

1462
01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:13,599
Speaker 1: Jobs or some of these people that I never got

1463
01:15:13,680 --> 01:15:17,000
Speaker 1: to meet. And I can be mentored by the people

1464
01:15:17,040 --> 01:15:19,240
Speaker 1: that met them, or I can be mentored by them

1465
01:15:19,439 --> 01:15:22,559
Speaker 1: through their own lives if I studied them deeply enough.

1466
01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 1: And of course I agree with you that I'd say

1467
01:15:25,280 --> 01:15:28,200
Speaker 1: any mentors that I've had in reality have not been

1468
01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:32,240
Speaker 1: calculated decisions. It's I agree with you, It's always been

1469
01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:35,160
Speaker 1: very natural. So yeah, I love that you actually reminded

1470
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:37,720
Speaker 1: me of something. I'm totally going off here that you're

1471
01:15:37,760 --> 01:15:40,840
Speaker 1: fast live is you reminded me of something. You asked

1472
01:15:40,840 --> 01:15:43,040
Speaker 1: me that question about what traitors changed, and you said

1473
01:15:43,080 --> 01:15:46,519
Speaker 1: something there that actually triggered something you said asking people

1474
01:15:46,520 --> 01:15:49,720
Speaker 1: to be my lifelong friend. So I've I've always been

1475
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:52,240
Speaker 1: very much warm, my heart on my sleeve kind of person.

1476
01:15:52,240 --> 01:15:54,760
Speaker 1: I've always been that way because my mum raised me

1477
01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:57,559
Speaker 1: that way, and I always was honest with people, and

1478
01:15:57,720 --> 01:16:00,360
Speaker 1: often you were. You know, often when you're that as

1479
01:16:00,360 --> 01:16:03,040
Speaker 1: a teenager, it's not a strength. It's seen as a weakness,

1480
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:05,839
Speaker 1: like you're weird or you're strange or you're you're needy,

1481
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:08,720
Speaker 1: or you're desperate, or whatever it may be. And I

1482
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:10,760
Speaker 1: never let go of it because I realized I would

1483
01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:13,200
Speaker 1: rather say what I really want to say to someone

1484
01:16:13,280 --> 01:16:16,719
Speaker 1: and then let it be whatever the result is, versus

1485
01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:19,519
Speaker 1: not tell them the truth and then realize we could

1486
01:16:19,520 --> 01:16:24,559
Speaker 1: have been best friends. And so till this day, I've

1487
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:26,559
Speaker 1: got some of my closest friends in my life who

1488
01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:27,960
Speaker 1: when I got to know them, the first thing I

1489
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:29,240
Speaker 1: said to them was like, I really want to be

1490
01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:32,080
Speaker 1: friends with you as as a thirty year old man

1491
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:35,240
Speaker 1: I loved I do the same thing. I think it

1492
01:16:35,280 --> 01:16:37,599
Speaker 1: takes people with back then. I'm like, look, I may

1493
01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:41,439
Speaker 1: as well just be straightforward. You can say no to this,

1494
01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:43,960
Speaker 1: And I'm so okay with someone saying yeah, actually, I

1495
01:16:44,000 --> 01:16:46,479
Speaker 1: feel like I'm getting a much more honest take on

1496
01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:49,200
Speaker 1: like whether this is going anywhere. And now I'm not

1497
01:16:49,280 --> 01:16:51,240
Speaker 1: living in the wood. It could have should have whatever

1498
01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:54,439
Speaker 1: I'm living in Okay, Well it didn't work and that's cool. Yeah,

1499
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:57,719
Speaker 1: And I'm so much more happier with that sense of closure.

1500
01:16:57,760 --> 01:17:00,320
Speaker 1: And now we're talking about relationships, but it's like, I'm

1501
01:17:00,360 --> 01:17:05,280
Speaker 1: so much happier with having honest, transparent conversations rather than

1502
01:17:05,320 --> 01:17:08,320
Speaker 1: this idea in my head that so anyway, you that

1503
01:17:08,360 --> 01:17:10,479
Speaker 1: was the trait. I think that I've learned to really

1504
01:17:11,200 --> 01:17:13,839
Speaker 1: see as a strength and not see as a weakness.

1505
01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:16,280
Speaker 1: And you know, so yeah, I think I have something

1506
01:17:16,360 --> 01:17:19,960
Speaker 1: very similar, which is I used to see my openness

1507
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:22,439
Speaker 1: maybe as weakness or something like that, because I am

1508
01:17:22,600 --> 01:17:25,360
Speaker 1: so open with the people in my life that I love,

1509
01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:29,439
Speaker 1: even about just my affections for them. Right Like, I'll

1510
01:17:29,479 --> 01:17:32,320
Speaker 1: probably be writing you like a long email after this

1511
01:17:32,400 --> 01:17:35,320
Speaker 1: being like Jay, You're so amazing and it's all heartfelt,

1512
01:17:35,360 --> 01:17:39,000
Speaker 1: and I sometimes felt like, wow, you're so open, and

1513
01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:41,160
Speaker 1: it was it was so interesting. I was at a

1514
01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:45,439
Speaker 1: wedding this weekend and I was talking with one of

1515
01:17:45,439 --> 01:17:47,400
Speaker 1: my cousins. She was like, wow, may you really ask

1516
01:17:47,479 --> 01:17:50,519
Speaker 1: these like deep questions of people. And my sister in

1517
01:17:50,600 --> 01:17:53,080
Speaker 1: law waded in and she said, but Maya always gives

1518
01:17:53,120 --> 01:17:56,160
Speaker 1: you her full self in return. Yeah, she gives you

1519
01:17:56,200 --> 01:17:58,080
Speaker 1: that depth back. And I thought that was such a

1520
01:17:58,080 --> 01:18:01,400
Speaker 1: lovely thing to say, because I do feel like in

1521
01:18:01,439 --> 01:18:04,759
Speaker 1: reinterpreting that openness as a weakness, I've seen it as well. Actually,

1522
01:18:04,760 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 1: it's amazing to be able to share so much of

1523
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:09,439
Speaker 1: yourself with someone else and hope that they can return

1524
01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:13,919
Speaker 1: that in whatever capacity they're comfortable sharing themselves. Totally, totally,

1525
01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:16,120
Speaker 1: I love that. I'm going to make that now the

1526
01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:19,240
Speaker 1: second question, I ask you, what's what do you think

1527
01:18:19,320 --> 01:18:23,720
Speaker 1: is a wonderful question to ask someone to evoke a

1528
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:27,240
Speaker 1: connection and create a relationship with someone, if you if

1529
01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:29,280
Speaker 1: you had your favorite question to ask in an interview

1530
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:31,840
Speaker 1: or your favorite question to learn about someone. We're on

1531
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:33,960
Speaker 1: the second question, so yeah, you can. You can turn

1532
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:37,640
Speaker 1: the seven words? Okay, what have you changed your mind about? Love?

1533
01:18:37,760 --> 01:18:39,400
Speaker 1: And then if I had nine words? I think that

1534
01:18:39,439 --> 01:18:42,760
Speaker 1: was seven I'm not sure? And why? Okay, beautiful, all right,

1535
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:44,880
Speaker 1: bad question? What have you change your mind about? And why?

1536
01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:48,439
Speaker 1: Sounds a little bit meta, but it's totally true. I've

1537
01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:52,080
Speaker 1: changed my mind about why it is people believe the

1538
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:55,200
Speaker 1: things they do, and that's been in studying the science

1539
01:18:55,240 --> 01:18:58,040
Speaker 1: of why it is that people believe the things they do,

1540
01:18:58,600 --> 01:19:01,400
Speaker 1: and I've always felt sits on some of the themes

1541
01:19:01,400 --> 01:19:05,040
Speaker 1: we talked about earlier that if we can fully understand why,

1542
01:19:06,080 --> 01:19:10,320
Speaker 1: then we can generate the how how do we change

1543
01:19:10,680 --> 01:19:13,080
Speaker 1: their minds? Given that if we think it's important for

1544
01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:15,360
Speaker 1: them to change their minds and what is the why?

1545
01:19:15,479 --> 01:19:18,760
Speaker 1: Usually where where's that? Where do you think you see

1546
01:19:18,800 --> 01:19:22,720
Speaker 1: the patterns of why people think the way they do? Yeah,

1547
01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:26,160
Speaker 1: I think it relates a lot to the the Darryl

1548
01:19:26,240 --> 01:19:29,519
Speaker 1: Davis story, and it relates a lot to what I

1549
01:19:29,520 --> 01:19:33,200
Speaker 1: was sharing about tribal membership, which is, at the end

1550
01:19:33,240 --> 01:19:35,960
Speaker 1: of the day, I think one of our most primal

1551
01:19:36,040 --> 01:19:38,400
Speaker 1: human instincts is we want to feel like we belong

1552
01:19:38,520 --> 01:19:42,599
Speaker 1: to something that's bigger than ourselves, to a community, a group,

1553
01:19:43,120 --> 01:19:46,759
Speaker 1: something that validates us and where we feel an implicit

1554
01:19:46,840 --> 01:19:50,799
Speaker 1: sense that values are shared, Yes, that there's commonality and

1555
01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:54,720
Speaker 1: understanding that. I mean, it sounds so simple. Oh, of

1556
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:56,640
Speaker 1: course some of my beliefs would be informed by my

1557
01:19:56,640 --> 01:19:59,439
Speaker 1: group membership. But if you really think about it, that

1558
01:19:59,479 --> 01:20:03,040
Speaker 1: does run encounter to a lot of people's intuition about

1559
01:20:03,080 --> 01:20:05,519
Speaker 1: how it is that we generate our beliefs, and so

1560
01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:10,360
Speaker 1: I feel like once you understand that that it's this

1561
01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:16,120
Speaker 1: human desire to belong um, you can then tailor make

1562
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:21,120
Speaker 1: better solutions that don't feel aggressive or confrontational or threatening

1563
01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:23,960
Speaker 1: in any way. I love that beautiful. All right. Question

1564
01:20:24,080 --> 01:20:26,240
Speaker 1: number four, what's the first thing you do in the

1565
01:20:26,280 --> 01:20:27,960
Speaker 1: morning and the last thing you do before you go

1566
01:20:28,040 --> 01:20:32,000
Speaker 1: to bed brush my teeth. So boring that I do

1567
01:20:33,800 --> 01:20:41,680
Speaker 1: need huge fan of you know, hygiene. Yeah, great teeth. Yeah, uh,

1568
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:47,280
Speaker 1: you know it's usually it's usually eating a snack before

1569
01:20:47,320 --> 01:20:48,759
Speaker 1: I go to bed, which is I mean, you'll probably

1570
01:20:48,760 --> 01:20:54,559
Speaker 1: tell me it's a terrible behavior. Yeah, I'm in now.

1571
01:20:54,880 --> 01:20:57,280
Speaker 1: I try to make it healthy. It's just gosh, I

1572
01:20:57,320 --> 01:21:00,400
Speaker 1: was telling um preferent battle in another way, were like,

1573
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:04,559
Speaker 1: I get I would I wouldn't call it hanger. I'd

1574
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:07,720
Speaker 1: say I get heritable. If I can make that, Okay,

1575
01:21:07,840 --> 01:21:09,800
Speaker 1: you just made it up. I get I get heritable,

1576
01:21:10,120 --> 01:21:12,679
Speaker 1: and no one likes me when I'm heritable. I don't

1577
01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:15,200
Speaker 1: like me when I'm heritable. So I just feel like

1578
01:21:15,240 --> 01:21:16,680
Speaker 1: I just need something to take a little bit of

1579
01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:19,160
Speaker 1: the hunger edge off. Yeah, so I'll have some sort

1580
01:21:19,200 --> 01:21:22,720
Speaker 1: of evening sex times. I like, I'm very heritable as well,

1581
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:24,720
Speaker 1: and so is my wife, and we know when we're

1582
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:28,320
Speaker 1: heritable for sure. I just need to eat a bigger dinner.

1583
01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:30,600
Speaker 1: That's the key. I know I'm not supposed right for

1584
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:33,519
Speaker 1: a bedtime, but I definitely can't fall asleep when I'm hungry.

1585
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:35,920
Speaker 1: That's very hard for me. That makes sense. That definitely

1586
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:38,920
Speaker 1: made all right. Fifth and final question, and seeing as

1587
01:21:38,920 --> 01:21:40,880
Speaker 1: you've worked in public policy, I think this will be fun.

1588
01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:43,720
Speaker 1: If you could create one law that everyone in the

1589
01:21:43,760 --> 01:21:48,400
Speaker 1: world had to follow, what would it be. Smile at

1590
01:21:48,439 --> 01:21:51,240
Speaker 1: everyone you see on the streets? Beautiful. There is a

1591
01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:56,600
Speaker 1: lot of research showing how these small moments that strangers

1592
01:21:56,640 --> 01:22:00,320
Speaker 1: share can have profound impacts on well being and happiness

1593
01:22:00,360 --> 01:22:05,000
Speaker 1: and a feeling of connectedness and whether or not I'm

1594
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:08,519
Speaker 1: having a good day. I make I make a self

1595
01:22:08,520 --> 01:22:11,880
Speaker 1: commitment to smile at everybody that I see when I'm

1596
01:22:11,920 --> 01:22:15,360
Speaker 1: just taking a walk, acknowledge them in some way or another.

1597
01:22:15,760 --> 01:22:17,759
Speaker 1: And it's been hard with COVID and mass and whatnot.

1598
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:21,840
Speaker 1: But those moments brighten my day. Um, I hope they

1599
01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:25,040
Speaker 1: brighten the people that I'm smiling at. And yeah, I

1600
01:22:25,120 --> 01:22:27,160
Speaker 1: just think I think the world would be a much

1601
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:29,559
Speaker 1: happier place if we could all find it within ourselves

1602
01:22:29,640 --> 01:22:32,639
Speaker 1: to to just do that small thing. I love that.

1603
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:35,679
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. Thank you so much, such a great answer,

1604
01:22:35,680 --> 01:22:39,120
Speaker 1: every Amyashanka. Please please please go and listen to a podcast.

1605
01:22:39,200 --> 01:22:41,400
Speaker 1: We will put the link in the description below and

1606
01:22:41,479 --> 01:22:44,519
Speaker 1: the comments. It's been such a joy sitting with you. Honestly,

1607
01:22:44,520 --> 01:22:47,200
Speaker 1: I could talk to you for ass and I really

1608
01:22:47,200 --> 01:22:48,639
Speaker 1: do hope we get to spend a lot more time

1609
01:22:48,680 --> 01:22:51,360
Speaker 1: together me too, And it's been it's been such a

1610
01:22:51,360 --> 01:22:54,760
Speaker 1: wonderful connection. I totally this conversation has gone in so

1611
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:57,200
Speaker 1: many new different directions that I know we haven't even

1612
01:22:57,880 --> 01:23:00,880
Speaker 1: started uncovering. But I'm really really excited to get to

1613
01:23:00,880 --> 01:23:03,000
Speaker 1: know you more and excited for my audience to connect

1614
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:05,200
Speaker 1: with you more as well. So thank you so much,

1615
01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:08,280
Speaker 1: and everyone's been listening or watching wherever you are, make

1616
01:23:08,320 --> 01:23:10,600
Speaker 1: sure that you tag us both on Instagram to let

1617
01:23:10,680 --> 01:23:13,719
Speaker 1: us know your biggest insights, takeaways, any of the stories

1618
01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:16,559
Speaker 1: or studies that stood out to you. And please please

1619
01:23:16,600 --> 01:23:19,080
Speaker 1: please leave a review as well and let me know

1620
01:23:19,120 --> 01:23:22,519
Speaker 1: that you heard this podcast specifically and how it moved you.

1621
01:23:22,600 --> 01:23:25,200
Speaker 1: Thank you so much everyone for listening and watching, Amya.

1622
01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:27,600
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing so wonderfully. Thanks so

1623
01:23:27,680 --> 01:23:30,760
Speaker 1: much for having me Jay. I appreciate your time and

1624
01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:33,200
Speaker 1: I appreciate you so thank you, Thank you so much,